What if podcasting wasn’t just content—but a bridge out of corporate?

In this episode, Brett sits down with Mark Hayward, former PwC and KPMG consultant turned podcast host and podcast guesting entrepreneur, to break down his escape from corporate—and how podcasting quietly became one of his most powerful tools.

Mark shares how he started a podcast while still in corporate, not to make money, but to build confidence, find his voice, and explore what life outside the corporate box could look like. That passion project eventually opened doors to consulting, coaching, real estate experimentation—and ultimately a business built around helping others grow through podcast guesting.

This is a real, honest conversation about experimentation, false starts, energy, and why podcasting works differently than most people expect.

What We Cover

• Leaving PwC and KPMG after a 14-year corporate career

• Why Mark started a podcast before leaving corporate

• The role experimentation plays in finding your escape path

• Why not every revenue stream is worth keeping

• Coaching vs. consulting vs. creative work (and the energy test)

• Podcast hosting vs. podcast guesting — and how each actually works

• Why guests often get more business than hosts

• How podcasting builds confidence, clarity, and opportunity

• Practical advice for corporate professionals who know they want out—but don’t know what’s next

Key Takeaway

You don’t need a perfect plan to escape corporate. You need momentum, experimentation, and a way to get into conversations that open doors. Podcasting can be one of those doors.

Connect with Mark

• Website: podcastintroduction.com

• Podcast: Business Growth Talks

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-hayward-163721a0/

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If corporate feels off—but you can’t see the exit yet—this episode will help you think differently about your options.

Hey Mark, welcome to the Corporate Escapee Podcast.

Thanks, Brett. Thanks so much for having me on the show. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

So am I. We both have a passion for podcasts and something tells me you're a little bit more of a guru than I am as we go through this. So I'm excited. plus you're coming from the other side of the pond as they like to say. So we're going to add a little more class to this podcast by having you on. But anyway, so for today, I thought three things I absolutely want to cover with you that I think make sense. I want to talk about your escapee journey because you went from

not sure I can do that, Brett, but I'll do my best.

high level consulting into podcasting as your escapee path. Kind of how you, how your journey's gone, right? How you've experimented and learned how to make money. you think that then ultimately podcasting is a tool for, for escapees, right? In small businesses, I would love to get your, perspective on that. So awesome. All right. So let's go. Well, maybe just for the audience, just give us a quick overview of who you are. And then we're going to go back in time a little bit to, that, that pivot point from consulting to.

Yeah, let's do it.

podcasting.

Yeah, so my name is Mark. I've got my own show called Business Growth Talks. I am a father of two, two daughters. I'm based in London, just outside London in West London. I'm married and I have two miniature schnauzers as well.

Awesome. Welcome to the daughter club. I've got three daughters. it's a, girl dad club is much stronger. I've seen more and more of that on LinkedIn, which is kind of funny. So, uh, yeah. So let's go back to your career started in consulting, right? What's it.

Yeah.

Yeah, so 2007, something like that. I started at PwC and spent 12 years there. Took a very entry-level job in, then built a bit of a reputation and then moved over to helping. I was in the tax sort of lane and moved over into building software.

for corporates to do with their tax requirements for people that were moving globally. So whether they were moving on short-term basis or on circumvents or transfers, we were building software to calculate their taxes and calculate the days they were in locations as well. That was something that we did in the sort of second half of it. And so I had a great time at PwC. It was a very supportive.

a very great people, like really, really good people. And I had a really good time there and was progressing really well. I was going up the corporate ladder. I was enjoying the experience and I had an unfortunate situation of multiple bereavements in a very close, like in six months, I lost three of my family.

and I decided that I wanted to make a change in my career. If I had not moved at that point, I think I would probably still be there now. And it's like some of these serendipity moments of your life. And because I'd had so much change in my life, I'd said to friends and family, my wife, look, I need to make a change. And my wife was like, why? Why on earth would you make a change?

Yeah.

I was like, don't know, I just need to make a move. So I moved over to KPMG, same job essentially that I was doing. And I worked there for two years. So I had 14 years in a corporate career. And it came to a point at KPMG where I decided that I wanted to leave. And I kind of had a job lined up.

but I'd quite smartly bought property, real estate in the UK. And so where people leave and have no income and they might have savings and things like that, I was in a different position because I'd been quite smart with my assets and been able to get to a position that I had savings and I also had income from properties as well. So, and I said to my wife, look,

interesting. OK.

in at the start of the year and they said I had to do I had to stay for a while. So so I sat out my time and I left and there was a lot of pressure that was relieved from leaving. Leaving corporate not necessarily PwC or KPMG you sometimes don't realize the amount of pressure that is on you to deliver and

Right.

It's not just delivering targets, it's perception and it's getting buying and making sure you've got everyone, all the oils are wheeled. And I stopped and I just felt a huge relief from being outside of that circle. And in the first year, didn't really know, well, I thought I was gonna become a coach, a business coach.

Okay.

What possibly I could have done is something that you've done and actually think about that corporate entrepreneurial route and what you've built here could have been a very sensible route for me. But I decided that I wanted to help smaller businesses with all the lessons that I learned in corporate about processes and systems in a growing business. I thought it would be a really good place for me to be able to support people. And then I met a guy.

And I worked as a consultant, like a facilitator for training leadership development of their talent. And I did some contracts with this company, really great experience. It actually gave me a really good insight into that whole learning and development arena and understanding.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

bringing on talent and I did some coaching with them as well and I really enjoyed that. And so I thought that was where my path was going to continue. And then I met my business partner. Probably he was on my show. Like one of the things I talk on my podcast guesting businesses, there are legitimately businesses started from being a guest on other people's shows.

Yeah, can I interrupt you? because I'm curious about, so did you start that show while you were still at KPMG or PWC or where?

It was PwC. Yeah. So it's an interesting backstory around that is I started being required to do some talks to industry leaders and a lot more of that sort of presentational style. And I was really struggling with that whole idea of standing in front of people talking, even though I knew that the subject, I sort of agonized over the process of it. I'd never been taught. didn't like you do presentations in

Yeah.

In teams, you do it to clients, but doing it in front of sometimes a hundred, 200 people is a different story. So part of my, my personal development journey was I was listening to a ton of podcasts, ton of audio books. And, um, and so I thought, why don't I buy a microphone? I've got a laptop, do a recording, an audio recording. And so I started that as a way of.

very cliched finding my voice, sort of like finding a way of being able to communicate. And so for the first 80, 90 episodes, I did 10, 15, 20 minute episodes where I'd research a subject or something I was reading on, and I would just click on and I'd record a podcast. It wasn't till episode 90 that I started doing interviews and that's sort of the next evolution of the show, but.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, no, it was a passion project, but it was very much required to feel more comfortable in my skin to be able to talk to people about the subjects that I was interested in as well as being able to do the formal stuff for the corporate.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting. Cause I don't know if we had talked about the origin of my podcast, but I was in consulting when I started it because I was looking for a way to get help small businesses, right? How do I get some of these ideas? Cause we working more with mid market and larger companies and it was just an, didn't know what a podcast was. I was actually in the process of writing a book or trying to write a book and the editor said, you should start a podcast. And, but I was still in consulting and that was honestly, that was the, the, the origin of everything that kind of.

happened after the fact, I didn't realize that was the origin story. So anyway, I didn't mean to take us off that tack, but...

Yeah, no, no, no, it's absolutely fun. And so, so I started it and then I joined a mastermind. They said, why don't you interview people? So the guy that I was talking to volunteered to be an interviewer. And it's kind of snowballed from there. 585 episodes, well over 250 interviews, probably getting 280 interviews. I've been a guest on a

That's awesome.

probably about 50 shows myself as a guest as well. And so it was really a good avenue for me to, as I say, like find your voice, be able to communicate confidently and clearly and concisely. And then as I say, it sort of snowballed into a business that me and George started. But yeah, no, it's been great for me as an outlet.

I'm very much an advocate of podcasting as well. we've had various sort of iterations of what podcasting means, but it's a great industry. I've built a great network of people in the UK and the US who we do business, we support each other on our shows and other people's shows. And it's been a great, great, great avenue for me to build my life around.

Yeah, that's awesome. And if you don't, again, one of my new year resolution on the podcast is to ask, you know, where did you make your first dollar outside of corporate? Did it come from the podcast or was it the coaching after the?

No, I didn't make money from the podcast until a long time. It was, it was 100 % a passion project. so the, the, the leaving corporate, coached, I coached and ended up having about four or five people coaching. And then I did this, leadership facilitation of their training. and that kind of, with the real estate stuff, with the property stuff that I had, it kind of created.

Welcome aboard.

a lifestyle that I was doing okay. It wasn't the same that I was earning in corporate, but it was, I was bringing in enough to be able to support my family. That's incredibly important to me. So that was part of the requirements of leaving. And, and I've been able to build a life with more freedom, more access to my kids and I have a better relationship.

with my kids as a result of leaving corporate. So it was definitely the right choice for me. And, and, and, and I just love this, this podcast and the stories that you bring because people sometimes need to hear that there is something outside of the corporate life. Cause I didn't come from an entrepreneurial family. came from a corporate family. So my experiences were not, were not built from entrepreneurship three generations. We all were.

corporate workers. so knowing that there is something out there that you can build, I think is a great story and should be told as much as possible.

Yeah, there is definitely a path and same thing, right? I learned and again, I tell people all the time, I kind of went backwards. I started looking for big deals, right? In consulting and big deals and fractional. And then over the couple of years started to experiment and found my voice or my path, I guess, was more of a meandering, but started to pick up multiple revenue streams. I'm like, man, I kind of like this better than the one big client. And again, I know there's some stability and safety in the client,

But one of the things that I'm finding, and it's been more recent as I've talked to other escapees, is it's taken people at two years to finally start to look beyond. Because when they leave corporate, they're so focused on this is what my offer, this is what I need to do, this is how I need to make money, and then start to say, all right, here's where the opportunities really are, right? In the sense, I can do this, I don't have to follow.

that corporate box of a path that this is the thing. And it kind of sounds like you a little bit early on started to figure out that, there's, kind of like doing this or I can make money doing this, or this is an interesting idea. So is that what your intent when you went solo was to, Hey, I'm just going to go test a bunch of things and see what happens or were you trying or was it the business coach? This is the path.

Yeah. Yeah. It was it was an idea of experimentation and I could have become a fractional consultant and I could have built a business, maybe a tech business. But it didn't really, although I enjoyed working with software developers and I enjoyed working with big corporates and I enjoyed the whole experience, I didn't really feel that that was

That's what I wanted to lean into. I also did a bit of real estate. So I was a coach. I was this facilitator and then I did real estate deals as well. And I'd bought properties and I'd had coaching, I'd had training when I left corporate about how to build a business with real estate. Some things worked out, some things didn't work out.

Okay.

I did a, a deal, but maybe two years ago, which cost me money. was a real hard lesson to learn. Real estate is one of those that if you're in it, it can be great. It can be really good avenue for revenue and sort of income, but there's, there's money to be lost there as well. And, and, it's crystallized more because the deals, whether they're small or big deals,

Yeah.

They can be quite harsh to learn from those. So I did the real estate thing for probably two years, something like that. So I did wholesale. So we call it creating deals. So I'd find deals, find investors, match them together, sell them. yeah, my training was based in sort of like

Okay.

centre of the UK, was about like two hours outside of London. And what they were teaching me versus the London market was very different. And I worked out in year two that their process, although worked really good for outside of London, London is a very different real estate property market and had to be treated in a different way.

Mark Hayward (16:52.177)

That was a harsh learning curve for me and I did some deals that it was successful to a point, but that was a real point for me to actually say, it's not working enough. I need to stop that, park that for now. And that's one of the hardest things is realizing when something isn't working, you're trying experimenting and trying a few things.

You have to give it enough time to see if it works, but you also have to understand when in experimentation phase, you have to realize that sometimes because of time or sometimes personality, it was time. The relationships you had to build with investors had to be built over a long period. And the training I had wasn't suited to the London market. So I found it quite a challenge. And that was hard to say.

I've got to stop because it's not working with the current. I either get trained differently or I leave it. and, and then as I said, we'll come onto the podcast guesting business, but that came into my life and, it's, it's been a great experience for me building that business.

Yeah, I think it's such a good lesson for folks that yeah, everything's not gonna work. because I tell people that I did over the course of the six years figured out how to monetize my corporate experience 10 different ways. And but I say not all 10 of them were worth the time and effort in hindsight, but it did teach me. Yes, you can let go. And there's so many lessons learned. And that's kind of what the whole mission of this, this movement, if you will, or the escapee is, hey, you don't have to learn. Everybody that leaves corporate.

Yeah.

Is smart enough to go figure this out on their own there will if you have enough time in bandwidth and money You will figure it out But how do we help people reduce the risk and make and avoid some of the trial and error? And I think your point on experimentation is great because I was a shiny objects guy. Ooh shiny object shiny object but I finally got a little more disciplined about it and figured out all right here to make more of a Strategic decision on the path that I was going i'm still open for new ideas if somebody has something that's interesting I'm i'm gonna head down that path

Mm, mm.

But keep the core, right? Figure out what works. And one thing that's really worked well for me, and again, it took me six years to start to figure this out. When I look back, it was the energy that the things were giving me were part of the drivers, right? Because leaving consulting and then starting a solo consulting made sense. But I realized, man, it's better than what I was doing in corporate, but not...

Right.

not ideal and then moved into fractional leadership. I'm like, this is good, but it's kind of corporate light. And then that started the journey of energy. Now with the corporate escapee, I wake up excited every morning to go see what's next. OK.

Yeah.

So the coaching was a very similar process for me because I had four or five clients. It was a good gig, but I didn't enjoy it. I didn't wake up and because I've said this a couple of times and it's not a harshness with the people that I worked with, but you're part coach, part therapist.

Yes, 100%.

And my wife is a trained therapist and she's fantastic at it. But when I put a mirror up to myself, I kind of didn't enjoy that aspect of, I got excited about their businesses that they were creating. One guy that I worked with, he was a software developer at one of the previous companies I was at. He was wanting to build a recruitment business using

Nigerian and sort of African employees in the same way that Philippines and Bangladesh and India and places like that. He had a great idea. And we worked with, I worked with him for six months or so, something like that. And, and he was actually ahead of the game because we now hire to Nigerian, sort of admin support. and there was a market there, but he had.

struggles with balancing the corporate career. He didn't have a runway. He didn't have a way of getting out. And so he kept on saying to me things like, well, I can't leave my job. I've got a family of two or three kids or whatever it was. And we ended up spending a lot of time with him, supporting him on the idea and what he needed to get.

Okay.

to, to then be able to go maybe part time or maybe leave the corporate gig. And so that was another realization for me that the part therapy bit of coaching, I like, I always think I am quite an empathetic person. I do think about other people. not just a, like someone who just ignores people's emotions, but I felt myself pulled in a direction that I wasn't

necessarily felt comfortable or felt happy. It didn't fire me up. And I think again, the real estate as well, it didn't fire me up. It was a little bit transactional and building businesses around podcasting is just fun. It's just like exciting. It's knowing people now that I've known for eight years and it's just been so much fun.

Like even doing the things that I don't like doing, which I try and delegate as much as I can, but even doing the stuff that I don't really like doing, it's still for the mission. It's still for the purpose that I found in my life based around podcasting. So, yeah, it's just been, it's been a joy to have it part of my life. And I'm a very much an advocate for other people joining, whether they want to be guests or whether they want their own show.

It's definitely a way of building confidence, building knowledge, networking, connecting with people. so I've just really enjoyed the experience. And as I say, I'm a massive advocate for it. Even in this tricky time of podcasting, which for independent podcasters, it can be a challenge.

Dory of a CEO, the Joe Rogan's, the Modern Wisdom's, the Lex Freedman's are taking such a huge proportion of the market now, so different eight years ago, that you have to be a bit more strategic and actually think about monetizing, think about connecting referrals, word of mouth, more than necessarily having massive downloads.

Yeah.

There's definitely a strategic aspect of podcasting which can either bring clients to you or leads to you or build networks that can help you grow your other business interests.

Yeah. I mean, it's such a good point. And like I I didn't even know what a podcast was when I was starting it. Now I wouldn't give this up for anything. This is still my favorite part is having conversations with, people like you, you and I never would have been connected if it wasn't for, podcasting. And, um, so again, I tried again, I worked with obviously a ton of escapees, new escapees and they're like, well, I don't have the time to do a podcast. then like, we're all turning into our own little media companies, whether we like it or not. And I think a podcast.

Because what just sharing for my journey that I really want to get into you what you're building and your advice for escapees because I'm an amateur you're the professional but It just opened the door to so many new people right when I was originally in my the podcast if There's a very I think there's a handful of people that have been there from the beginning over the five or six years now And it kind of mirrored my solo business, right? It was hardwired for growth which was working with small businesses then it was funded companies and then it went to b2b

business owners and then ultimately to the escapee but it got me in front of like some large venture capital funds it got me in front of you know some you know Jesse Kola the Savannah bananas right I'm nowhere near the level of those other podcasts you mentioned but I can still get people to come in to talk about what they're passionate about and the one thing I'm found and I'm definitely curious your perspective is

the guests that come on my show get a lot more business than I got from my own show, right? It's the guests that end up getting the benefit from it because even if it's a small, smaller show, there's still people that are interested that I found a lot of people got new business from being a guest on my podcast. So with that, my

So it's a balance, it's a balance, Brett. Having your show versus being a guest, right? We'll talk about having your own show and you say, well, let's talk about the podcast guest and you say like people get business from being on your show.

Yeah.

It is the best strategy to be able to promote a product or service. So my business is called Podcast Introduction. We help business owners get on other people's shows in your niche, in your niche that you're in and be able to talk about what you're selling. That's primarily who we work. We do work with authors as well, but primarily it's about that. And the reason is because the focus is on the guest.

The questions are at the guest. I'm in this conversation, I'm demonstrating why I know the podcast industry, why I know how guesting helps business owners with my show about business growth as well. I, as a guest, I am telling your audience why you might consider working with me. Building your own show is a personal branding exercise.

and that's the difference. can do, so I do phases of solo episodes as well. And so that hopefully demonstrates my knowledge and my experience about business and about growth. And so that's a great way on a podcast to actually demonstrate your knowledge is doing solo episodes as well. So there's lots of ways that we can sort of.

do it that you can demonstrate your knowledge and build your business through as a podcast host. But I've got to be honest, podcast guesting is just an amazing way of being able to do PR marketing and, build confidence and build. Cause I spoke to someone recently and they were saying, what I've experienced working with you is my sales process is now much better because I'm talking about it.

on 24 times in 12 months, I now understand my sales process a hell of a lot better than I did at the start, because I think of things, I have things planned, I have things that I think about while I'm talking. I actually had a conversation on my show a couple of hours ago, and I actually wrote a note to myself about my own business. And it wasn't related, he was a recruiter, it wasn't to do with talent or recruitment.

But that conversation, I just went...

I've not thought about that for a while. Maybe I should think about how I can incorporate that into my business. And that's like, and the other thing from a podcast hosting point of view is it's a networking opportunity. It's a, it's a mastermind. You basically got a mastermind with people that are more intelligent than you either in business or in your, your niche, whatever it is. You've got people that you can ask the questions that you want to know about.

Yeah, a hundred percent. It's, it's selfish, right? Because if I'm learning, figure other people are going to be having you on, right? Thinking about, because one thing is you're talking, I made the note. I don't get myself on enough other podcasts, right? I'm so focused on bringing people like you and other folks to come on mine that I'm not out going, Hey, I'd love to come or do a reciprocal or those types of things. Because even to your point on that, on a few that I've been on, most of them, most of the other folks, cause I tell people to come, if you want to use your audio in the podcast and

That's great. It can be.

do it whatever you want. I found some of my better episodes if I don't do it too frequently is replaying me as a guest on somebody else's podcast. One that podcast gets the lift from my audience but they get to hear from me being asked questions versus the other way. So don't do that very often. Maybe I need to do it more. I don't again I haven't put a ton of thought into it.

The thing about guesting is you've got to get them into your ecosystem. So you've got to get them from passive listener. So someone's listening to this show now and they're like, love Brett, love his show. that was interesting about Mark. Yeah. And they'll just carry on with their lives. But if I give people a reason to...

Go to my website, connect with me on LinkedIn. Maybe then join my email newsletter. You bring them into your ecosystem. Then you can demonstrate adding value. So that's one of the best ways that we've worked as strategies of helping our clients is getting that call to action. we talk about that like, so you can search my website, podcastintroduction.com.

You can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm not the only Mark Hayward, but you'll see from the picture of me, like connect with me. I post regularly on LinkedIn. We do an email newsletter. I can connect you with that as well. Bringing people from your audience into my ecosystem is the way that you're able to leverage it to be able to people then go, cause it might be right person, wrong time. But if you get them into your ecosystem, when it is the right time,

Right.

They reach out to you.

Yeah, that's awesome. All right. So I'm to be respectful of time, but I do want to go through, let's, want to get your opinion. if take me, I'm still in corporate. I know I want out. don't know what to start. I started a podcast when I still in corporate, you started a podcast. What's your recommendation to a newbie? it to try to get yourself on a guesting while you're still out? What, what's the advice to that person that's sitting in corporate right now?

If you're in corporate, I would say start a podcast as a host. The reason why I say that is because A, you'll be learning new skills, like, whether even if you outsource, you'll still learn the aspects of it as a business and as a marketing channel. And I would say like, steadily build an audience.

of people that are interested in what you're talking about. Look, you can talk about, I'm interested in Star Wars. You can create a show on Star Wars. Like Gary Vee always says, like he talks about things like Pokemon and things like that. If that's what you're passionate about, then start it. Because you'll learn so many new skills, so many new lessons from that passion project that it might end up that you...

trade Pokemon cards and you're trading. I watched on Netflix over the new year, the king of collectibles, which is this guy in like just outside New Jersey. And so he he's built golden auctions and he's built this business with collectible items. So it's sports cards, but it's also merchandise and memorabilia and things like that. And the reason why I say that is

There are people that he was sort of involved in in the conversations that all they do is buy Pokemon cards, wait for values to go up and then they sell them. So there is there is a way of turning your passion into your your main business revenue. So I would say if you're in business and you're in corporate, you might want to start a show on

marketing or whatever like tech or whatever it is. But don't discount that whole idea or something that you're hugely passionate about. So another thing I'm passionate about is rugby union. I trained my daughter and her team on Sundays. And so for me, I could really start a rugby union show. I don't have the capacity to run it as well. I'd have to give up the podcast, my business show, but I

would love to. I would like to watch a lot of it. I know I read about it. I could absolutely create a really good show there about my insights on that. so just think of it as a, like sometimes you'll get some like soft skills speaking, you might get some like more confidence, you might get more different ideas about how to do different things in your job or whatever it is. So, like, I think you'll get something from that whole experience of hosting.

the guesting is only hugely important from, our business anyway, because we have narrowed down into business owners. If you want to leverage that experience, that knowledge you have to demonstrate that for a product or service.

So I would say that if you're in corporate and you're struggling and you're thinking about what to do, you maybe leave, maybe start a business, start your own show. But if you do take that leap and leave and, and you're, you're, you're looking for things to do. Starting a podcast is a great way of networking with people, connecting with people, finding referrals, starting businesses, collaborations, partnerships.

is a fantastic way, whether you're a podcast host or a podcast guest, it's a great way of doing that. And I just think it's a growing medium. was on a webinar in about November time last year, and they said globally, it's now hitting 565 million people podcasting globally.

Okay, yeah.

And 71 % of people in America now listen to podcasts regularly. 71 %!

71%. Oh, I didn't know it was that high. That's fantastic. Yeah. I mean, it's, it just makes sense. And just, I would just want to reiterate or double down on your point that part of the passion, because I had somebody on the podcast not too long ago, Bodansky, he was in corporate America for three years in investment banking. said, this isn't going to be for me. He, once that ended, he went into, opened up training younger kids on fitness and athletics because his passion

and what he played college at football, right? So he knew performance, knew nutrition. And so he went, now he's opened up a gym. like, Greg, man, this would be a perfect podcast. You can get that audience of the parents and the kids and it's unique. And he hasn't gone there yet, but I'm just supporting your point. It could be personal or business and just to...

100%.

Get the conversation started because again, I think that's what the ultimate goal of the escapee. I kind of teach use what you have already, right? You've got some experience. You can make some money, but ultimately it's going to lead you to a path of what you really want to do because the advice to say just quit and follow your passion. Most of us still have bills and I may have to go learn how to play the piano or sing in a band. That's it's going to take some time, but, anyway, no, and I love, and I may have to have you come back, Mark and we can do a deeper dive into the podcast.

as like a mini workshop because I think there's so much value in this but I thought your your escapee journey was was too good to pass up on as well so I wanted to use the path so any closing thoughts I'll definitely put the links in the show notes for folks to find you but anyway

Absolute pleasure.

Yeah, I suppose the last thing I would say, if you want to know about podcasting as a host, reach out to me on LinkedIn as a great place. You see content on there about my show, about podcast guesting, about podcasting. If you want to have a conversation about podcast guesting, whether you're in that position where you'd like to maybe bite the bullet and work with us, go to podcast introduction. That's our website.

Go and sign up for a call. I'm very happy to have these sorts of conversations to be able to make sure people, if it is a fit for you, we do sometimes turn people down because it's not a good fit for them, but we can absolutely help a lot of people, a lot of business owners that are looking to build an audience through podcast guestings. So yeah, I'd be delighted to come back or be able to support you in any way with you and your community. So thank you, Brett.

This was awesome. Appreciate it, Mark, and we will catch up with you here in the not too distant future.

Brilliant. Thanks, bro.