Season #24 Episode#:81

Shaun and Bobby talk to Lavie Sak, Founder of ADV a tennis accessories company whose tennis and pickleball bags have become a technological marvel.

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(upbeat music)

Welcome to the Atlanta Tennis Podcast.

Every episode is titled,

It Starts with Tennis and Goes From There.

We talk with coaches, club managers,

industry business professionals,

technology experts, and anyone else we find interesting.

We wanna have a conversation as long as it starts with tennis.

(upbeat music)

Hey, hey, this is Shaun with the Atlanta Tennis Podcast,

powered by GoTennis.

Check out our calendar of Metro Atlanta Tennis events

at LetsGoTennis.com

and be sure to register for the GoTennis Fall Festival

on November 9th at James Creek Tennis Center.

It's gonna be awesome.

And now let's get into our recent conversation with Lavie Sak.

Starting with a tennis vibration dampener in 2017,

Lavi has grown ADV to include several new products

with their tennis and pickleball bags,

becoming the most popular.

If you're lucky, you'll get to meet Lavie at our fall festival

in November.

Have a listen and let us know what you think.

(upbeat music)

Who are you and why do we care?

- So I'm Lavie.

Let's see, I started playing tennis somewhat late.

The 14, 15 era, that age range, which is late in tennis.

But I just, I fell in love with it.

I coached for, I won eight, nine plus years.

And now I want to be more involved.

So I started ADV tennis back in 2017

with the little dampener.

And that was it.

That was this all little dampener

that half the population loves

and half the population doesn't love as much, I guess.

It's about a 50, 50 split in surveys.

That being said, it gave us a start

and we learned a lot about the tennis business,

what sells, what doesn't sell marketing.

And fast-forward seven or so years,

we have about four, I see you guys, six new products

and the biggest ones are our bags.

And yeah, they're different, they're cool.

I like them a lot.

But outside of ADV, well outside and inside,

I like to do a lot of philanthropic work around tennis.

Some of the big believers in the power tennis,

power sport in general.

So actually behind me is the Davis Cup jersey

for Cambodia.

So I'm a part of the tennis Cambodia team.

Never played, wasn't good enough.

The boys are about 1,000 in the world.

But I know them all, the coaches,

I know the people run it.

I just came back from a trip there.

So we actually donate 5% of our profits

towards helping tennis grow there

and even further in Southeast Asia.

So yeah, that's me and Nacho.

- Fantastic.

So Cambodia, is that where you're originally from,

your family, so what's your connection to Cambodia?

- Yeah, so my parents are originally from there.

I wanted to give back and I was in grad school

in Australia, pretty broke.

I couldn't give them any money,

but I did fly over on points

and I did shoot a documentary to help shed the lights

on kind of the return of tennis thereafter, after war.

You know, it was not best to produce one.

It was me, two cameras and a bunch of orphans

holding stuff around.

But it was cool and it's the tennis channel

and I talked briefly about it,

but I think one day when we have some more funds

and we can do that story right

and get a high-pression team in there,

I think it's something that,

I think it's a story worth telling, I put that way.

So yeah, probably true.

So you started with a dampener.

If we go to the beginning of ADV,

you figured out, okay, what?

You didn't really wanna be a tennis coach

or you just wanted more.

You said, "Hey, I'm gonna be like all the other tennis coaches

and say, I can do that thing better."

And you'd make a dampener.

And what was the special dampener?

Like what made you think you could do a dampener better?

- I'm a big data guy.

I found a bunch of compelling data

that show that dampers were selling really well online.

And I didn't think the marketing was that good.

I didn't really speak tennis players.

There's some people out there

just making kind of copycat dampers

and putting it out there and it worked.

So I wanted to do something better.

I wanted to make that dampener actually better.

And this comes from a person who,

there are people who put rubber bands

on their rackets and they work.

But I really do know and feel like it's a very perception

feel based thing.

And even the most minute changes

or the perception of minute changes

really helps a player mentally.

So we have three separate dampers, a large,

we call it Max Orb, a medium, a Zorb,

and a small as a touch.

We played around to design the silicon density on it.

So to increase and decrease its level of feel,

obviously the amount of strings that touches matters also.

But yeah, I forgot to mention,

I was, I mean, I studied engineering.

So I'm kind of in that world a little bit.

And I hired some right people.

And we usually get picture.

I was in I play tennis in Midtown,

I'm not sure if you know I play.

But Dan's a good guy.

And he let me go in there and try my dampers

on every single one of his rackets

to make sure they're compatible

on all the string patterns and things.

So that was a fun, fun, weird thing to do in a tennis shop.

So I just sat in the corner doing that.

So yeah.

- Just that fun.

So okay, so Danpiner and then it's products.

So you eventually get to the point

that that's what you're doing instead of coaching.

Was there kind of a crossover and a switch?

You just said, I'm out, I'm gonna go,

I'm gonna go sell cool products.

- Definitely a crossover.

The reason I stopped coaching to be very frank

is I just, I had two kids on my own.

I have two kids on my own.

Takes a lot of time.

That and the company.

And I didn't want to stop.

It just, it kind of naturally happens.

And especially when I moved Melanta to,

a Lanta to the Northern Virginia area.

It was a natural thing.

I didn't really push to coach more on here.

But one day it'd be fun to start up.

I would like to coach more of a team setting.

So being as always fun.

But yeah, I haven't lost a love for it.

So things are so important.

That being said, I probably won't coach my kids.

I let someone else do it.

And I think that's probably a good decision.

Maybe we'll see, but yeah, yeah.

So.

- I spend quite a bit of time playing tennis with my son,

Bobby, did you ever try to coach your daughter?

I know she's a musical theater now.

So I know it didn't take.

- No, it didn't take no.

And I did not try to ever coach her.

No.

- Okay, did you ever...

- That's always nice.

- That's always nice.

- That's always nice.

- Yeah, so that's the question for the coach.

So you've got six new products where I found you personally

was in the bag space.

Is that your most popular walk us through ADV?

Walk us through your products and kind of what's popular

and what the world of ADV is,

'cause then I know I'm gonna let Bobby play with that

'cause he'll ask a bunch of questions about that.

- Yep.

ADV started as an advantage.

Is it acronym for Advanced or a prefix for Advantage?

But then it started to change it to Advanced.

So we want to advance tennis products.

So everything we do has a twist, like an innovative twist.

The Ampeneers were, you sold them through to a pack,

different silicon, decency, different designs.

That was our core novel thing.

With the grips, we looked at different resins

and things that make the feel and the trackiness,

the dryness, absorption, all different.

The wrist bands we added, bamboo charcoal,

like very minute levels of bamboo charcoal ash in there

to help prevent sweat or absorb sweat,

prevent mold, prevent stink, things like that.

Our hats, we put a super thin layer of silicone

to prevent sweat from going down.

We also put bamboo charcoal particles in there too.

We made it as lightweight as humanly possible.

We put a moldable cap.

So if you want to look like a Nicario,

you can flip your thing over.

But things like that, we just want to put more thoughts

into products and to listen to people

and see what could get better.

And we did that a lot with the bags.

The bags have been in R&D.

The first bag was R&D from the year and a half.

And then we treat our bags like software

where we want to make the next version better

every single time.

So yeah, think about things like how we have a cooler

inside the bag, how we have integrated hooks,

how we have a separate sweat section of the shoe bag

to prevent the sweaty clothes dripping into the shoes,

secret compartments, tons of organization.

So all those things kind of go into the calculus

of how you want to make, we just want to make things better.

I mean, I think instead of slapping a giant logo on a bag

and you want to make it true innovation,

no thing on any of the brands just want to really push.

- Bobby, I'm going to go ahead and tell you,

the bags are not cheap.

So their quality, their high end, I always say,

you have really fancy bags.

And I weren't as fancy if I'm going to kind of downplay it,

but they're put $250 range.

Bobby, I know you're going to ask that question, right?

(laughing)

- Yeah, who buys them?

Yeah, I mean, is it real?

Where are you having success with a brag price at that level?

- So when we try to market it, we don't want to,

I'm not like, hey, Bobby, buy this over a Wilson or Pavlov bag.

We're never going to undercut in price.

I know we don't want to ever do that.

We want you to think of these bags more like a Tumy travel pro,

Tually, those brands.

We want this bag to be different

and it's being marketed differently.

We use YKK zippers, which cost four to five X

more than regular zippers because they last longer,

don't break.

We invest in putting different levels of coding on our fabrics

to make them more water sealed or water resistant rather.

But that being said, the people who buy the bag,

these are people who really, they may not,

it's not so much what level you play.

It's more how often you play.

People especially in leagues, clubs, they tend to play,

they tend to want this bag more.

For example, we had, we had one club in Denver,

one of the guys uses it, a coach liked it.

He started using it and legitimately 70% of the players

have an ADV bag there.

So I think it catches on.

I think once people can feel it, see it,

the calculus in their mind is like,

well, I have 450, 300 of the rackets.

Maybe I should put that in a pretty good bag.

So that's the, that's kind of where we go.

Like whenever to compete, we're not gonna compete on press.

And then we don't want to, we want to compete on innovation.

- My curiosity, I'd like to start with the beginning.

I've read about dampeners.

Now, do I have a damter in my racket?

Absolutely because in the second,

there's not a damter in, I hear the difference.

But I've read that they don't absorb that much vibration.

So, where you guys stand on that?

Do you guys have something that absorbs more?

I've heard as little as 2% that these dampeners

will actually absorb vibration.

So where do you guys come down on that?

- Yeah, I mean, they, you're right.

I mean, the science is like the absorb minimal,

but does not take much,

do you just, especially here a difference?

- Here, no question.

- Similar to how you, you like, when you taste something,

the smell matters just as much.

It's like when you, when you're hitting,

it doesn't, that sense of sound correlates to the feel

and your perception of that ball.

So it doesn't, like the most minute changes,

make a difference.

And that's why like touch damper makes a difference

when the big damper.

Because in terms of surface area,

in materials touching the racket strings,

it's very minimal.

So that, say that 2% difference becomes like a 0.5 difference

between one difference or the other,

but you know it and you feel it.

Like it's like a different perception.

So it's super minute, but it does matter.

It's like when I play a father damper,

I kind of get upset for that way.

- Oh, no question.

Okay, just, satisfy my curiosity.

Where, where, I'm just thinking about

what you've told me where your products are.

And I've gone and ranked in my head.

Where, what is your best seller?

You know, where you, where, where have you seen a real interest?

Obviously a bag is a tougher one

because you don't buy one every year.

You're going, if it's a quality bag, you're going to have it.

So you're, you're, you're making your money on dampers.

I love the idea of the wristbands.

Where have you had success there?

- So in terms of the most surprising product that we were like,

you know, we'll test it out.

And it really went well is wristbands.

- wristbands. People love them.

I'm not, I mean, like trying to pat myself on show.

Like I was, I was genuinely surprised

how, how well received they were in the market.

We took the concept of physical therapy wristbands

that added compression and the bamboo charcoal.

It's proven to help with circulation.

So that's why I was for physical therapy.

That being said, it also has good satisfaction properties.

So then we combine that change of design a little bit.

So that's wristbands.

I think the dampers have always been our highest units sold.

Like from the very beginning, just the sheer number of them sold.

But obviously bags are the high price point.

I think they're, they're the most innovative

and most iterative products that we're continually going to change.

Not to say we're not going to change other products.

And then the other one I think is going to be interesting

for your audience, particularly is we had a training kit,

a training kit.

So this is the problem.

When I coached and you probably, you both are faced this probably.

I'm like, hey, Johnny, you need to tell your mom or dad

to get a reaction ball jump rope, a elastic band, a pull rope,

maybe a hand strengthener, some cones, some markers,

you know, a hula hoop, I don't know.

But anyway, we were like, I was like, you know,

this is a common problem, man.

And I think in this world, where convenience matters,

I would just say, hey, Johnny, go buy the ADV tennis kit

because it's going to have everything in your coach once.

So we had that before and it had the reaction ball jump rope,

elastic band and the pull rope, like that type of thing.

And it sold really well.

We were working and actually sold out,

we're actually working on a version two of it.

We're going to add some new things, improve the bag

that holds all the stuff in it.

And actually, UTA bought a bunch in wholesale

because it was part of their offering

to other academy students, they would just get it.

So that was super compelling

and I think that's something that's me very interesting

as we get to V2 of that.

- Well, I think that's a great idea on how to market it.

I was already thinking along those lines when you were talking

and it was like, just build it into the price of your academy

and you take care of it because you described the contents

of my ball shed with the hula hoop and the jump rope

and the ropes that, you know, you don't end it

because they're not having them, they don't use as much as they should.

So if they're carrying them around,

I mean, when I was growing up, you know,

you walked on the court and King Van Ostrin said,

take your jump rope out, you know, this is what you do

before you even walk on the court.

So I think if they're carrying it, they're more likely to do it.

So I think that's a great idea.

And I do, I think your vibration, the dampers,

that would have been my guess as your top soul,

not just because it can be, but the colors pop.

And the next question, obviously,

always when you're the little guy going against the behemoths

who all they do is throw the cannibalized their lines,

you know, I don't think it's as important to have it W

on a dampener as it is, you know, on the bag.

Let's put that way where people who are Wilson players

are gonna wanna have it Wilson bag or gravitate to that.

I think these dampers look good.

They, you know, the colors are much better

than what you see normally.

So that's gonna resonate.

And I love the idea of compression,

'cause I've always felt tennis is so far behind

in the use of compression that they've been playing catch ups.

So that's a great between the charcoal and the compression.

It there, that's a differentiator

and that's something you can sell.

So with that said, how do you get the word out?

How do you tell your story to people that, you know,

this is not just another cloth wristband?

- Yeah, I mean, it's our marketing.

We try to market things in a more scientific way

and use like engineering and our branding is like very,

it's like somewhat technical looking,

like matrix lines and numbers and stuff like that.

That helps get them, gets the right message out.

We have done Instagram and Facebook ads.

They're expensive to do.

Sometimes the RIs and the most positive

or the highest there.

What we found, and this is not like a genius thing,

but coaches and influencers and people,

people who talk about it, that gets the word out.

I mean, that's why the doll gets paid so much money

on pays, federals, some paid so much.

Like it matters who news it and who talks about it.

So that's one thing we've kind of always looked to do

and think we found a good set of people,

influencer type people that could help promote it.

And it gets the word out and it spills a trust that they like it.

And it genuinely like it.

One rule we have is if the person who helps promote it,

they don't like it.

I don't want to, I don't want to be the log this not just.

I want people to genuinely like it

and genuinely want to promote it.

So.

- Well, and Bobby, I don't know how much you've looked

at every single product, but I just look through

in the site and the marketing is good.

I mean, the risk paying packaging is gonna matter

because there's one thing you get a four pack for 20 bucks.

It's a reasonable price.

I don't have the same $250 fee of the bag,

but just the box.

I mean, think about the Apple products that we buy

and you open it and just the experience, it screams quality.

And that's really the thing.

And you look at the marketing and new age,

bamboo, charcoal fiber.

Like, I want that.

I don't even know what that means.

And I want that.

And that's good.

I think that's beyond just Wilson saying,

"Hey, we have cotton."

You know, it will sell anyway.

But in this case, I like what, I like Lavi.

I like what you're saying because it's,

you said, making things better.

And that's one of the things we're working on as well

at GoTennis and with the podcast,

we wanna make things better.

We wanna talk to people who are interested

in making things better,

rather than just trying to figure out

what the right price point is to sell the product.

Does that make sense?

Like, you're actually trying to create a good product.

Let's not really worry too much.

I mean, you still have to.

You run into business.

You're gonna find the price point.

But we're not gonna cut corners.

- Yep.

I'd rather like, every time we make things better,

like, we added a toilet tree pocket.

So in the new version, three in version two bags,

there's a pocket because you're gonna have sunscreen.

You're probably gonna have like,

so, you could put a bar of soap in there if you wanted

for a shot.

You probably don't want to,

but you could put things that were spill.

And that's a common thing and that adds cost.

I honestly rather make the product better

and have to increase the price.

And I think that that resonates

because I have people who bought V1, the Pro Bag.

When V2 came out, they bought V2.

And they've already told me when V3 comes out,

they're gonna buy V3.

They're gonna have three tennis bags.

And I think I'm just guessing that they probably

give away the other one or something.

And that's kind of like,

we want people to understand that.

We truly want to make things better and listen.

Like, one of the best things,

one of the best little tips that I would never have got in,

if I didn't talk to somebody was on the Pro Bag,

that's a side compartment that you could,

it's a big side compartment that you could put

almost a piece of paper and almost a clipboard.

And the guy was like,

hey, this is a great pocket,

but it doesn't fit my piece of paper out of the folded.

It sucks because of that.

And I'm like, oh, so I just,

I simply like, like took some fabric

and shifted it up a little bit.

And now that same pocket just fits this paper.

So I just small things like that, I think do matter.

So you just want to always listen.

So.

- And I like that you said you like to treat it like software

and you take the incoming requests.

If it's reasonable, if this thing can be just X percent bigger,

it fulfills a whole new purpose.

- Yup.

- Hey, people, I was thinking of,

you treat these things like software,

I'm thinking I'm gonna treat it like an iPhone.

Because now what I want is I want my buyback program

or my trade-in program where I'm gonna get $50 off

the V3 when I trade in my V2,

like T-Mobile or something for Izen or somebody.

And I'm gonna treat the old bag where you can then repurpose that

as well, I don't know how that works with the old phones,

but that'd be a cool program with the bags.

- Yeah, there's something we thought about.

I mean, sustainability is important.

We want to make sure that I don't think people

just throw it away, I think there would be news.

But if we can offer ways to recycle them in a way where we have a,

we have a pretty early on,

they since a refurbished program that people want to trade up.

We sometimes want off basis type thing.

But similar to how some other companies do like the model

where like anything that we turn,

we may donate to like a needy community.

That's something we're looking into.

I don't know what time mine is for that just yet,

but that is something that we're noticing people

just keep wanting to buy the new ones,

even if they got the previous version.

- That's what reminded me of the iPhone.

The new one comes out, I need it.

I don't care if I actually need it, but I need it.

- Yep, yep, exactly.

- So Bobby, I'm gonna give you another shot,

but Lavia, I wanna start, say is there anything

we haven't covered about ADV, about you,

product, anything you wanna share

that we haven't quite covered yet?

- I think I just, I wanna stress like I think the tennis

is a very, it's a very community driven sport.

And I think like, I think that's what,

it compelled me a lot to help out with Cambodia.

And I think one of those one story was,

it's coaching a women's team in Atlanta, Piedemont.

And I shared the documentary with them,

like this story that about tennis came by

and then the next practice, the ladies all brought,

just gear and stuff to donate and just wanted to help.

I mean, this is great.

It's gonna cost me a fortune to ship this thing out.

- It's so big.

- But I just think that if there's,

if anybody's listening who just, you know,

wants to support that type of, that those type of things,

I mean, helping ADV obviously helps that indirectly,

but there's a lot of direct ways to help too.

So yeah, take a look at Tennis of Cambodia,

take a look at just, you'll be fascinated

by just the grassroots tennis programs

in different countries and what they're doing.

We work with Haiti, Haiti's trying to do things,

they're going through a very tough political time now,

but like there's like these,

these kind of lights or beacons of sport.

I'm not even just tennis, but sport in general,

that help country to get through stuff.

So yeah, and we will definitely scream that

from the rooftops, so to speak,

whatever that looks like on a podcast.

Sure, it's all in the show notes,

everybody will know 'cause you've got a good,

even on your site, your section on your impact

that you're working hard to make,

and then your answer is to our why,

I like that section that's kind of a modern way

of doing a site to say, this is our why,

this is why we do what we do,

and I think modern businesses are often just coming out

and saying it, you know what, here's why we're in business,

here's why we make this product,

and hopefully we get a chance,

and I wouldn't say hopefully,

we will get the chance to help you share that story

and definitely help you promote what you're doing

in the impact that you're creating.

And I appreciate that a lot.

Bobby, you got anything else for, for Bobby?

- Yeah, two quick questions, USB ports,

gonna be in that bag pretty soon.

- So we do have a, we also have a pickable bag

that also works just as rough a tennis,

but in that bag, in future bags,

you'll have a small compartment where you can put a charger,

and then a little pass through.

So we don't give the wire or electronics

because that's a whole new compliance.

(laughs)

But we wanna make it easy for you to charge things,

and put speakers and stuff in there, and et cetera.

- I figured my luggage has got it now,

so I know that's gotta be coming.

And then the other one would be my curiosity.

Everything you describe seems absolutely contrary

to what you think of as a tennis demographic.

So your demographic is got to be younger.

- Ah, you would think that, but no, like I mean,

are, it's mainly 35 to 55,

that's kinda sweet spot.

Like,

- That's younger.

(laughs)

- I'll play this one.

I think like the younger, the younger,

out of college demographic, I think they are,

they're interested, they're less willing to shell out.

I think that club player every weekend

who plays the match, like Alta, perfect example.

They're playing that Saturday match or Sunday match,

and they have that practice.

They're probably doing pretty well.

Like tennis is a fairly affluent sport in general.

I think it's shifting a little bit.

I think it's becoming more diverse in that respect.

But there's always gonna be that high end, it's just,

it just, you pay so much for rackets in general

that I think that it's just like a connection point there.

I think that's still gonna exist.

So yeah.

- Very, and where do we get them?

Where do we find, are you in the pro shops?

Where's your business predominantly online?

- So it's mainly, it's all online right now.

We are, we are working some distributors,

potentially some pro shops.

One of the ideas that we have is just get one of each bag

into pro shops all over the country

and just have them be a vessel for people to feel it

and try it.

And if they sit there, they get a code,

that's like a discount code.

And then I wanna make sure to give credit to that shop.

So they don't have to hold the inventory.

They are essentially an affiliate in that respect

and they would get a cut at that sale.

So we're looking to that.

So people, I think it matters

that people can hold it and feel it

because it's hard to tell the material.

It's like a, it's if denim, if denim

and nylon had a baby, that the material feel.

So.

- Bobby, Eric and Eagle Jeans.

(laughs)

Sorry, I'm making pants.

Bobby, the quote on the side of the reading is,

you love this game.

Now here's a bag that carries your devotion along with it.

And I think that that concept will resonate.

We like that word resonate.

But with that 35, 55.

No, I'm just out of college.

I don't have any money yet.

So I'm just gonna carry my rackets with me in a water bottle.

But when I decide to get my first bag,

so Bobby, I don't know if you've got your Wilson bag.

Maybe guys play with the same bag their whole lives.

Like you're saying, you don't buy one every year

and you don't even buy one as often as you probably

buy tennis rackets.

But in this case, as I'm getting into tennis

and I'm gonna take it seriously, this is a great,

this is a great, I wouldn't say stark

'cause that makes it sound like your starter home, right?

But it's a great start, meaning this is a phenomenal product

and it's worth taking care of your rackets.

As lobbyist you said, you got hundreds of dollars of rackets.

You got your cell phone in there.

You're probably crazy enough.

You probably got your iPad in there too.

But like let's take care of our stuff

and this is quality and we like it.

So, Lavi, I appreciate taking time to chat with us

and you remiss.

I will never forget except that one time.

I do want to ask you my favorite question as we end

and I am curious to know from your point of view

everything you've been through,

everything you wanna do, seeing tennis as it is today.

If there's anything in tennis,

whether it's Northern Virginia where you are, Atlanta

where we are, the United States, the world,

professional, social, any level,

is there anything in tennis that you would do or change?

- That's what I'm actually saying.

King of tennis tonight.

You're a king of tennis,

anything you would do or change.

I think this work is still a lot,

in tennis, maybe you're other guests,

but accessibility, coming from a person,

I didn't really grow up that much.

I've never firmly had a tennis lesson until later

in high school.

I think, excessively in that respect,

helping people come on board

and fall in love with the sport, it's tough.

It's hard to find a player yet to find someone's

probably similar skill level to you,

get equipment, things like that.

I think, I think I'll use one case study,

and it's fascinating to me.

And what I'm gonna mention is pickable.

And I'm not, it's more or less,

what I think is novel there,

I think that if tennis could take a page out of that,

is the fact that I went to just experience it and understand it.

When you go there, there's a court,

there's a four-pickable court,

and like 40 people waiting patiently, mind you,

and happily socializing and things to get on court.

I wanna see more of that in tennis.

I think that happens in team,

the world of all-time things like that,

where you have people,

like having fun off the court

while getting ready to go on court.

So I think that level is,

it's just the having it be more social,

more fun to hear to more levels.

I think it's something I wanna see.

And then on the pro side,

I want the business of tennis to improve and evolve.

Like I have some friends on tour,

challenger level, it's a struggle.

And then like the gap in pace

is quite different from the very top tier to the,

even the next tier.

And I think it starts from just a fundamental business standpoint.

I think like tennis is such a popular sport,

and it could make a lot of money in general,

but I don't know if there's the appetite of all.

I know that Mara Toglou is doing

that the quick tennis and things like that,

I think that's what it's gonna take,

because the younger generations

are gonna want something different.

And as we kind of age out and new players come in,

I think that's,

tennis needs to evolve.

I think other sports have evolved quite well.

I think tennis is slower to that.

So hopefully ADB can be part of that change,

'cause we have some cool tech things

potentially than product pipeline.

So yeah, those are the two things.

There we go, accessibility Bobby, we hear it again.

- Yes, we hear it again.

And evolution, and I mean,

that was a lot of the pain points even the last,

we can't put 'em 'cause I know we don't put 'em in order.

But they're talking about the discrepancy and pay

and getting people paid, and time tennis.

There's a lot of similarities we've heard,

and the idea that people are resonating

with the team idea.

So Avi, I'd love to hear you.

Obviously, you're right on board with everybody,

and we gotta figure out a way to make some of these changes.

I'd say people, baseball made a big change with the clock,

and it was a subtle change, but it really changes the game.

I mean, you're now, it's a two and a half hour experience,

and it's much more enjoyable than sitting there

thinking it might be four and a half hours.

I think you're gonna have a hard time

ever getting the grand slams to evolve,

but outside of the slams, everybody should be employee.

'Cause like, Bobby said,

there's not a lot of people making money.

Above board anyway, with these tennis tournaments.

It's a struggle, certainly a struggle.

Anything below a thousand level is a struggle, so.

- 100%.

I think gamification, I think,

ways to incorporate what kids are seeing on screens,

getting that type of like a thought,

or that, I don't know,

digitalness onto the court somehow.

I think it's gonna be a huge unlock.

'Cause I do sometimes worry.

Probably kids are playing tennis

'cause the gravity is the team's sport,

so they don't play sports period,

because they have other easier things to sit down and do.

So I think tennis has to figure that.

I think they're working towards,

I know that the USA is doing things around that,

but I think technology should be looked at as a way

to grow tennis.

I think that needs to happen.

Otherwise, they're gonna be tough.

- Agreed. Well, in technology,

we're hopefully gonna help,

and what we're gonna do is,

Lavi, we're gonna follow up,

because what I like in my role,

because I never actually have to answer

the King of Tennis question,

I get it's like, okay, you've come to us

with what you want to have happen,

but then I wanna follow up at some point,

in the future and ask,

how are we gonna do it?

So I'm always trying to, in this case,

crowdsource the actual answer.

We wanna make it more accessible?

How?

How are we gonna make it?

'Cause everybody wants it more accessible,

but if we don't actually have the how,

then it's not gonna get done.

And in that case, sometimes there's money questions,

there's time, resources, all those things.

With the tour, if I can call the ATP right now

and tell them how do we have the answer?

And 'cause we see that a lot,

Bobby, I just mentioned, we hear accessibility

and we hear, hey, you know what?

I like the way you put it, Bobby,

though evolution is a good thing.

It needs to evolve, it needs to become

a different but better concept.

It needs to always be improving.

And tennis is kind of an old school sport.

And I mean, golf is never gonna have golf carts

with music playing and like,

it's just never gonna be that different

because it's very old school.

And like you said, unlikely to change.

This can be, it's maybe sound like a big nerd,

a big tennis nerd, but I actually wrote

my graduate dissertation on developing a framework

for an evolution of sport using tennis as an example.

So there's about like 45 pages on tennis.

Something like that has been a long time,

but it's interesting.

If you ever wanna just burn an hour, read that.

- About two, so I'm gonna follow up 'cause yes,

I was about to say, please send me a copy of that.

But let's see if we can figure those things out.

We're looking for answers, everybody wants change,

except for those that don't.

But if we can make things better,

and Bobby, what did you say the other day?

1500 people in other team sports

are professionally paying their bills

and in tennis it's less than 100.

- Yeah, do the math.

You're professional football.

There's 30 teams with 55 people on the active roster.

So just do the math there.

Basketball's got 15 people on an active roster

that are all making well over a million dollars a year.

Baseball's got 25 people on an active roster.

Tennis doesn't have 100 people,

met and women are, they're making money.

After that, it's a struggle.

So yeah, it needs to be addressed.

And you said golf, and look, golf rounds are down.

Golf is going through with the post-tick,

Tiger era isn't resonating.

Look, they finally, somebody bought him

and said, we're gonna make this a week.

We're gonna cut down the amount of tournaments.

We're gonna make, there's something to be said about,

I'm not gonna go cheap.

I'm gonna keep it, my product is worth this

and that's what I'm gonna do.

And if you want it, this is what it's gonna cost you.

So tennis needs to look at what they're doing,

find the right price point

and make it accessible.

As Bobby said, we know the technology.

We spoke into the wall people.

There's a lot of things that would resonate with kids

that you could get out in front of them

and get make it, we know it's a health issue,

we have an obesity issue.

There's so many things that resonate with it would change

to get people more active.

So yeah, that's what we're trying to do.

So Bobby, I expect to see you, I know we don't date it,

but sometime in November, you're coming down to be with us

at our fall festival.

- I will try.

(laughing)

I will try.

I think it's not just the amount of pay,

but it's a very ability and pay.

But there's no salary, right?

It's in you get injured or you have a bad,

we all have bad months, whatever we do, right?

And essentially you are,

you're livelihoods at risk if you have a bad month

or you get sick.

And then like combine that with,

when I go to, I'm going to you as well,

if you guys are, if you great to meet up there.

But a grounds pass cost me $275.

And that wasn't me marked up,

that was just $275.

And you used to cost me $75.

So I don't know, I think that,

I think there's something there.

I just, I don't believe at that.

It's a lot of money to pay for a grounds pass.

I know it's a great thing.

- It's really limited, you can go.

Like you said, you know,

and again, sports have made this mistake before baseball

when they went to only night games.

And then I grew up, now again,

I'm always person in the room,

but I used to look forward to the fall,

coming home from school,

'cause there would be playoff games on.

Now, if you're a parent, you really want your kid up

past 12 o'clock to watch the game.

And it hurts participation.

If the kids can't watch to see other people do it.

So there's no question to me,

tennis is not, you can't see it as much as you used to be able to.

You know, it means a lot of, it's time for a refresher.

There's no question about it.

And like I said, they need to learn,

because nobody's immune from it.

Everybody suffers about the,

the only machine that keeps wrong with is NFL.

And I don't get it.

(laughs)

So hard to compete with.

- Hard to compete with the NFL,

but we'll figure it out.

That's why I like to push,

'cause let's brainstorm sometimes.

Let's talk to, I like to be,

whether Bobby wants to be the oldest one in the room

or we'll figure out who the smartest one in the room is.

And Lavi, we're gonna have to lean on you for that one.

So we're, all right, let's get some answers.

Let's talk again.

And yeah, hopefully we'll see you in November,

but I appreciate your time.

And we will stay in touch.

I am in the middle of looking for your dissertation right now.

So you wanna save me a minute, send me a link.

I would love to read that.

Bobby, as always, thank you so much.

You're over there.

I appreciate it. - Yeah.

- Lavi, we will be in touch.

Thanks for your time.

- Yeah, thank you.

- That's fun.

- Well, there you have it.

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