Ellen Stone, EVP of Consumer Engagement & Brand for Bravo, Oxygen, USA, SYFY, E!, and Universal Kids, joins the guys to talk about marketing programming across today’s fractured TV viewing experiences. Ellen talks about the collective effort at NBCU to build quality content and connect it to audiences where and how they engage. Hear about Bravocon, Andy Cohen, Peacock and so much more. Also, don’t miss John jumping out of the suite shirtless with his Hopelessly Unattainable plea. 

Key topics & chapter markers 

(00:32) Lightening Round

(03:42) TV spend behaviors

(06:59) The TV eco-system is really complicated

(09:17) Welcome Ellen Stone!

(10:46) Understanding your audience

(15:37) Leveraging social conversation and engagement

(23:58) Building and structuring a team 

(26:10) Expanding the brand in real life: BravoCon

(28:13) An advocate in Andy Cohen

(31:21) Secret sauce: Getting awareness across NBCU channels

(34:47) Buying awareness outside NBCU channels

(37:45) Reinvigorating older shows on new platforms

(43:53) A bold, smart decision: Rebranding Oxygen Network to True Crime

(49:00) Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest

Background content

TiVo Video Trends Report - TiVo.com

40% of consumers confused about where to find content they want to watch - StreamTVInsider.com

Lee Hunt’s CMO Intelligence

Bravocon - Bravotv.com

The Most Shocking Revelations About ‘Scandoval’ From the Vanderpump Rules Season 10 Finale - Time

NBCUniversal’s ‘secret sauce:’ How its Symphony campaigns boost ‘This Is Us’ and other projects - The Los Angeles Times

Oxygen Officially Rebranding as Crime-Focused Network - Hollywood Reporter

Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmarks13/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-l-young/

Good morning, Brian.

2

Brian: Happy 2024, we're

3

John: Woohoo.

4

Here we go.

5

Brian: back.

6

John: We're back.

7

And coming back, Brian, I want to,

dive in strong to today's topic.

8

we're going to later talk about

how networks drive viewership

9

in today's really complicated TV

ecosystem with a fantastic guest.

10

But first, I know you and I both love

TV we like to talk about TV shows.

11

Brian: Yeah, who doesn't like

to, watch more and more TV?

12

John: Exactly.

13

And, you've given me some

really good recommendations.

14

I'd like to think I've given you some.

15

I want to start today with a, Snap

Decisions lightning round TV show edition.

16

Brian: All right, let's get in it.

17

John: Are you ready?

18

Okay.

19

This is going to be hard.

20

These are really tough

choices, in some cases.

21

Just go as quick as you can.

22

You ready?

23

Cheers, or friends.

24

Brian: Cheers.

25

John: Right answer.

26

Seinfeld or curb your enthusiasm?

27

Brian: Oh god.

28

John: Tough one.

29

Come on.

30

Cut.

31

Knee

32

Brian: right, Seinfeld.

33

Seinfeld.

34

John: despite this being a high judgment

zone, we're not, no judgment because

35

Brian: I do love Curb as much as

anybody, but, Seinfeld, just because

36

I can put it on around everybody

Curb, can't watch that around

37

John: Yeah.

38

People get a little squeamish.

39

Okay.

40

The office or arrested development.

41

Told you they're hard.

42

Brian: Arrested Development.

43

But that's just as hard as the last

44

John: Ooh.

45

Brutal.

46

Brutal choice.

47

South Park or the Simpsons.

48

Brian: Simpsons.

49

John: I agree.

50

Homeland or the Americans?

51

Brian: Ooh.

52

I'm gonna say Homeland, but, The

Americans is pretty good too.

53

John: Again, these are like

Sophie's Choice choices here.

54

Stranger Things or Lost?

55

Brian: Stranger Things.

56

John: Last one.

57

Hard one.

58

Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones?

59

Brian: Breaking bad.

60

John: Okay.

61

Yeah.

62

I'm with you on that.

63

All right.

64

So, , sorry to put you

through the, the ringer there.

65

That's tough.

66

Yeah.

67

And, and, and while I started off a

little bit in, the way back machine there.

68

Now we're in this golden age of TV, right?

69

And it comes with gold level pricing.

70

Brian: Who does it ever?

71

John: Yeah.

72

All right.

73

So, uh, top of your head.

74

Uh, it's tough to figure this out.

75

I know, but how much do you think

you pay each month for TV services?

76

Yeah.

77

Brian: I probably pay, uh, about 150.

78

John: Okay.

79

How many different packages do you

think you've got in there for that 150?

80

Brian: Oh my God, I got, I got so many.

81

I, uh, so my streamer is for

regular television is YouTube TV.

82

And then I have, um, And during, like,

football season, I have an add on for,

83

like, Red Zone, , I have the Disney

bundle, , you know, Disney Hulu, ESPN That

84

actually comes through my Verizon package,

though, so I don't even pay for that.

85

I would pay for that if I didn't,

, mostly because, , my kids watch

86

a lot of Disney I have Paramount

Plus, and I have Netflix, obviously.

87

Everybody has Netflix.

88

Apple TV, which has had some

good shows and has been a

89

nice add on to Apple services.

90

They've made that easy

to jump on board with.

91

, I have, Max, you know, the old HBO.

92

John: All right.

93

Let me you a different question.

94

What packages don't, what

packages don't you have?

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Brian: I have Peacock, even

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John: All

97

Brian: I don't know.

98

It's a, it's a disease.

99

John: yeah.

100

Okay.

101

I'd say there's no way.

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You're at 150 bucks a month

with all those services.

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Brian: You think it's more?

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John: I, I know it's more.

105

Brian: Well, I don't know.

106

I mean, apple TV's less than $10 a month.

107

Peacock's 5 99 a month.

108

The Max HBO, , platform, , I paid

annually and to get it down to about 10

109

or $12 a month, Amazon Prime, how much

is the TV component of Amazon Prime?

110

When you're really buying it for

the ability to get packages faster.

111

John: So you're willing to

rationalize some of these expenses

112

as they're part of bundles.

113

But all right, so I

heard a lot of sources.

114

I didn't catch the number.

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I think I'm around six sources

plus a bunch of shared credentials,

116

you know, from family members.

117

I think around 120 bucks.

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Okay, I'm going to

share some stats, Brian.

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Brian: Okay.

120

John: of all, in terms of how much people

actually spent, in the middle of last

121

year, it came down a little bit to just

under 171 per month, average, in the U.

122

S.

123

Okay, so think about average household

income and think about 171 on average.

124

And that's TiVo Video Trends Report.

125

the number of video sources people

use grew from an average of just

126

under nine in 2020 and to 11.

127

6 at the end of 2022.

128

Um, it came down just a little

bit halfway through the last year,

129

but it's still like, you know,

people are around 10, 11 sources.

130

I heard you kind of go past that

and you're going down your list.

131

income is a big factor.

132

Households earning less

than 80, 000 a year.

133

Average 10 sources, but households earning

200, 000 or more average 14 sources.

134

Brian: Wow.

135

Yeah, they've made it more and more

complicated than that's for sure.

136

John: and expensive.

137

Alright, so if, if the other number

is accurate, 171 on TV, that leaves

138

another hundred bucks on other

subscriptions, like music, publications.

139

Wow.

140

Well, you know, yes, it is complicated,

like you said, and all these kind of

141

subscription video on demand services.

142

This is, you know, clearly, I

think the increasing price is why

143

we're seeing the rise of these.

144

Ad supported models, right?

145

Brian: Yeah.

146

John: We keep mentioning this

idea that it's complicated.

147

it's also complicated for the people

who are trying to promote content.

148

Which is why we're talking

to our guest today.

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you're going to tackle one of the

reasons it's getting complicated.

150

I'm going to tackle the other.

151

So, you were looking into how

people find what they're looking for.

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Brian: Okay, so, , there's a

153

And, here's some real problems

that, they found that's facing

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audiences looking for content.

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You know, 45 percent of consumers feel

like there's simply too many options.

156

You know, used to be, I want choice,

but now there's too much choice.

157

40 percent say they don't know

where to find the right shows.

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John: Amen.

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Brian: Yeah.

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And 33 percent say they don't

have the right subscription.

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so

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John: Except for you, who has every

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Brian: my, my way of

dealing with buy everything.

164

And, you it's like the

ultimate fear of missing out.

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One thing that I think that, the

platforms have done really well to make.

166

This new type of model work is

they've created better content.

167

So, Netflix has, really gone

above and beyond just creating like

168

content that's better than what

you can get on regular cable TV.

169

You know, Apple has done it,

HBO has done it for years.

170

So the one trend that I'm also seeing is

that they are cutting back on creating

171

new content and they're charging you more.

172

So back Skimpflation,

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John: Yes.

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They absolutely are.

175

That's why it's a good thing.

176

Netflix is, is really strong and

others on kind of the recommendation

177

algorithms to put something good in

front of you because there's less there

178

for you to go explore and discover

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Brian: yeah, so I think you're going

to start seeing more consolidation of

180

these platforms, which would be great

for my subscription models, uh, And

181

you're already seeing some of it, like,

uh, Disney is, uh, they're including

182

navigation in their app for Hulu content.

183

There's been a lot of talk

about, Paramount and Max

184

coming together and merging.

185

so I think when we come back in

the next year, you're going to see a

186

completely different, landscape here.

187

John: Yeah.

188

All right.

189

I want to jump off of the

example you just referenced about

190

Hulu being promoted in Disney.

191

Okay, so under this idea that the TV

ecosystem is really complicated, , I

192

did some research and just six

193

a network's promotion time pushed

content on their own channel, right?

194

You're watching network A, they're

pushing content that they have on

195

that network at a different time.

196

That's called on air promotion.

197

Back then, six years ago, only 10 percent

of that inventory was used for internal

198

cross channel, which means promoting

content on their sister channels, right?

199

Last year, just five years later.

200

Now it's a third of a network's

promo time is dedicated to pushing

201

something on a sister channel.

202

And now if you're watching live TV,

you've got, you've got programmers pushing

203

content out of linear TV into a streaming

platform, which used to be unheard of.

204

And according to CMO intelligence,

a really good resource.

205

If you're watching TV on direct

TV, that's just one example.

206

It could be Xfinity, it could be

Spectrum, it could be Fios, wherever

207

you're getting your live TV.

208

One out of every five.

209

For a show, we're for a

show on a competing network.

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Brian: that's crazy

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John: So, if you're responsible for

building a network and promoting

212

specific shows, what the hell do you

do in this complicated ecosystem?

213

So, on that note, Brian, I

have a snap decision for you

214

before we get to our guest.

215

Brian: Yeah,

216

John: As a TV aficionado, which I think

you are, how important is a network brand?

217

Are you picking content purely on a

show by show basis or do you still

218

have like some go to network brands

that you turn to for discovery?

219

Brian: Well, I I think the main discovery

places are the Streaming brands and

220

not necessarily the network brands.

221

I mean, I think the network brands

still hold some cachet in trust.

222

So if the television show, it's coming

from a brand, I think that still

223

carries weight, but I'm exploring

it through a streaming brand.

224

What about you?

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John: A little bit all

over the map, you know.

226

I think word of mouth is

still dominant for me.

227

, if it wasn't for sports, I probably would

have no sense about new content coming on

228

if it wasn't recommended to me by a friend

or By, you know, a streaming service.

229

to me, there's still some

cachet to a network brand.

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Like, I hear someone say, there's

this great new show on HBO.

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Like, I get that, right?

232

Is now a good time to bring

in an expert to help us talk

233

about how she navigates this

234

Brian: Yeah.

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Expert slash therapist

So let's get into it.

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As we talk about navigating today's

ever evolving TV viewing habits,

237

behaviors and media overall.

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We're excited to bring in

a true expert in the space.

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This woman cut her teeth at ad agencies

and the glory days of television and

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marketing supporting campaigns like

the got milk, milk mustache ads and

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Lipton's that's brisk baby commercials.

242

She's now at NBC universal where she's

executive VP of consumer engagement

243

and brand strategy for a collection of

networks, including Bravo, USA sci fi.

244

E and oxygen helping these brands position

themselves in the lifestyle space.

245

This includes keeping the thirsty

bravaholics content with more and

246

more real housewives franchises

and finding new creative and

247

innovative ways to build engagement.

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She is a real marketing trailblazer.

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She is Ellen Stone.

250

Welcome to Snap Decisions.

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Ellen: Thank you for having me.

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John: Ellen, we are thrilled.

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Brian, Brian's heard me gush

about, uh, what a, what a

254

fantastic, savvy marketer you are.

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And with such a fantastic, resume

and list of accomplishments.

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We are, we are honored to have you here.

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So thank you so much for joining.

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Ellen: Thank you.

259

Pleasure to be here.

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John: All right.

261

So, Brian and I talk all the time in

our personal lives about, TV shows

262

that we like and don't like and where

to find them and more and more we find

263

ourselves talking about the complexity

of navigating today's media world, right?

264

Where's that show?

265

How do I watch it?

266

What show?

267

How'd you find about it?

268

there are a few areas we'd love to

hit on with you and the first is

269

that very tricky area of, as a, as

a marketer, you've got to build this

270

overarching network brand for Bravo.

271

Okay.

272

And promote individual shows and

presumably individual personalities.

273

just, we want to hear about how you do it.

274

Ellen: So, one of the things I will

say is on Bravo and on all my networks,

275

the programming department gives us

such great storylines and such great,

276

talent that personalities that come

into our shows that marketing is a joy.

277

Number one, it is hard, I'm not

saying that, but we do have the

278

content that people are searching

out and we've been able to find that.

279

So.

280

I think we all know the basic

elements of what we have to do.

281

We have to really understand our audience.

282

And at Bravo, we've got our Bravoholics,

our fans, and they are rabid fans.

283

We've kept this brand relatively

tight so that they really do

284

understand what they're getting

when they come to a Bravo show.

285

Because the storytelling is so

authentic to our personalities.

286

And what we do is enhance that we find

the audiences who want that storytelling

287

and we match them with different

environments of where their behaviors are.

288

So it's constantly looking

for the new behavior.

289

How do we reach them?

290

Which gets harder and harder every

day because you've got so many

291

new opportunities and platforms.

292

and it's also about motivating

them to watch, right?

293

So that's our social conversation.

294

How do we make sure that we're

authentic in the social conversation

295

and the voice we're having?

296

And one of the things that Bravo did

early on, and in fact, he has done that.

297

I'm also on USA and sci fi.

298

And one of the properties is Chucky.

299

You can't get a more

authentic voice than Chucky.

300

And we created the Chucky is real.

301

So.

302

social handle.

303

And that is all about making

sure that our voice is authentic.

304

And also we're talking as friends.

305

We're not talking to a

fan because we are fans.

306

Our social team knows that the brand is

fans of the brand and fans of the show.

307

And so we've changed how we speak.

308

Over the years to make sure that all

of the bravoholics and the Chucky

309

fans and the live from E red carpet

fans, they know that we are every

310

bit in it with them as they are.

311

We drive the conversations they

want to hear, not the only the

312

conversations that we want them to hear.

313

There's a definite distinctive

difference in how we're speaking

314

and how that's evolved over time.

315

Brian: to me it sounds like the principles

of marketing carry through no matter

316

what you are, you just plug and play

different tactics based off of what the

317

audiences need and where they are, right?

318

Ellen: Yeah, I mean the principle

markings are core and haven't changed

319

that much, but the tactics and

the strategies and how you measure

320

those tactics change every day.

321

Because consumer behavior

changes every day.

322

So my main goal is to marry up a great

product, or in my case, piece of content

323

with an audience through an environment

that works and finding those places for

324

them to really get motivated to watch.

325

And not only that, but my goal is

to make them feel a part of the

326

family, a part of the brand so

that they become brand evangelists.

327

Brian: So

328

how do you measure success?

329

Ellen: there are, well, you

know, it's the TV industry.

330

I get measured every day with

a rate, you know, a rate card.

331

I've got my report card thrown at

me and we try not to look at it

332

every day because honestly, today

you've got to cume your audience.

333

So we try not to look at it

because the day of the live same

334

no longer tells you the story.

335

John: yeah.

336

And when you say, Kim, your audience,

I just, everyone understands like what

337

you mean there is obviously there's a,

there's the same day who watched it live a

338

linear, but then you have a long trailing

time period where people are watching

339

on streaming platform on wherever.

340

Right.

341

And then you say you

relating your audience

342

Ellen: I'm assuming my audience, right?

343

I'm looking at the audience.

344

Live same, but I'm really

looking at it live seven.

345

I'll even go out to live 31 because

if I don't know who's watching

346

it, then I can't reach them again.

347

we're looking at KPIs that are much

longer in terms of the audience.

348

We're also looking at

the social conversation.

349

And the social conversation is

telling us whether it's positive

350

or maybe slight, like, oh my God,

but it's telling us what is it that

351

they're feeling about these shows.

352

And is it a love to hate?

353

Is it a love to love?

354

Is it a love to see what happens next?

355

This is what I'm, I'm hearing

from the social verse.

356

And this is what I'm reacting

to and pivoting to in real time.

357

John: So so pick up on that social verse.

358

I want to ask you real quickly.

359

You mentioned the idea of, you know,

you measure the live audience plus seven

360

days plus 31 days in that in that tail.

361

Obviously, it drops off

pretty quickly, right?

362

But when you see

363

Ellen: Well, it does and it doesn't,

cause remember Bravo and some of our other

364

shows are live our next day on Peacock.

365

So Peacock has become critical.

366

To the marketing.

367

We work with them so tightly to make

sure that it doesn't drop off like it

368

used to in the linear world because

that's not a world we live in anymore,

369

John: are you able to kind of stir

the pot when you see stuff happening

370

on social that's interesting you can

kind of do you see a spike happening

371

based on there's a social conversation

that caught fire a week after and

372

now you're seeing viewership pop up

373

Ellen: absolutely.

374

I mean, two really great examples.

375

Three really great examples live in

Bravo, but but also in other networks.

376

So in Bravo, we had Vanderpump Rules

and in season 10, we had a huge

377

moment that took over pop culture.

378

It just took over pop culture and that

doesn't mean you wait and see, Oh,

379

let's see how the conversation is going.

380

That means that Peacock and

Bravo got together immediately

381

with press production.

382

It was everyone and that's one of the

wonderful things about NBCUniversal.

383

The, the silos break down.

384

Like we are all in it

together on our shows.

385

Comcast comes in and we all

work together to say, what does.

386

The audience needs, what do

our bravoholics and potential

387

perspective bravoholics need

to get involved in the show?

388

So for example when that moment happened

At the end of season 10 the first

389

thing that happened was we all got

together, press, social brand production.

390

Nobody did, cause we had

to treat this with respect.

391

These are talent that

we know, that we love.

392

We've had ten seasons with them,

and we're friends with them.

393

Our job was to make sure that our fans,

our Bravo holics, had what they need to

394

understand what was happening on the show.

395

And as importantly, provide context for

new potential Bravo holics to catch up and

396

understand what was happening on the show

so they can be a part of the Bravo verse.

397

We did that with Peacock, we did

that with Ketchup Dyes, we did

398

that, did that with social media.

399

Peacock, used their editorial.

400

It was all these different ways

of bringing fans into the current

401

situation and the current storyline.

402

And press was all about, you, you saw

the Vanderpump Rules cast all over.

403

So we had people, Lisa Vanderpump

and Ariana, who are two members

404

of the cast, they were at the

White House Correspondents Dinner.

405

You know, we saw the moment and we

wanted to make sure that everyone

406

could enjoy it as much as, as we could.

407

And we're continuing.

408

It's one of my favorite things.

409

So last fall we had the ultimate consumer

410

John: Yeah, we want to know,

we want to hear about BravoCon.

411

Ellen: It's called Bravo Con.

412

It's really big.

413

And it was our third Bravo Con.

414

And during that we had panels on

Vanderpump because it's so, it was

415

so popular and wanted them to talk to

the producers and the talent and, and

416

even people who weren't on the show,

but other talent who loved the show.

417

So it's this, it's this, um,

it's this environment where you

418

can just really, really dig deep

into being in the Bravoverse.

419

It was there.

420

that we teased season 11.

421

And since then, we haven't stopped.

422

We've made sure that that pulse

conversation kept going up until

423

last week when we had a premier

party for Vanderpump, which was

424

actually the first time we opened

up our premier parties to consumers.

425

So they were able to get it by a ticket

and come and actually enjoy the first

426

episode prior to the live airing.

427

of Vanderpump and it was,

it was a great moment.

428

It was such a great moment and we knew it

would be a great moment that we actually

429

used it to launch the valley, which is

a show that comes out of Vanderpump.

430

There were always looking for

those opportunities in marketing.

431

To help the next big thing.

432

So during the Vanderpump right before

that you, they were bated breath

433

waiting to see, the premiere episode,

we showed a tease for the valley and

434

they saw many of the casts that were.

435

older Vanderpump personalities

in the new show, The Valley,

436

and we were able to launch it.

437

So what we try to do in marketing is look

for those opportunities, surprise and

438

delight, or straightforward to give the

fans all the information they need to

439

really enjoy what's happening on Bravo.

440

Or USA or sci fi or whatever show

that we're trying to promote.

441

Brian: the opportunities today are

just, I mean, it's just endless and

442

the ability to be able to do what

you said and just either write it out

443

and continue to talk about things or

create a different show because of

444

something that happened, it's wild.

445

John: And all these platforms you can

push to, like, what you're talking

446

about just now is like a classic.

447

You created a tentpole event with

BravoCon to tease the something that's

448

coming out at the end of January.

449

And then you've got the steady drum beat

all leading up to a live linear premiere.

450

That's not even the beginning, right?

451

It's, it's all those places

like Brian was just alluding to.

452

All these different places and,

and shows you can start promoting

453

off of that in different places.

454

It's complicated.

455

Ellen: And, and, and all the

different platforms you can use.

456

So, um, back in last year, we

e launched House of Villains.

457

It was one of our best premieres on E.

458

It was fantastic.

459

It had great talent.

460

It had great story.

461

It's a competition show

with these villains.

462

It was great.

463

We were able to utilize YouTube

to help really push that.

464

And, and this again, it's

it's not the newest, tactic.

465

But the way we did it strategically

was a little different from others

466

in that we had talent that was known.

467

Because they were all

villains on other shows.

468

So we were able to grab other, IP from

other areas on YouTube and bring them all

469

and funnel them to House of Villains on

YouTube, which helped us keep the sampling

470

going and push them to the linear viewing.

471

Because while we love YouTube,

we really do want them to watch

472

on the linear viewing, right?

473

So, it was a great show

and a great success.

474

And again, I can't tell you how

much, how important it is that the

475

story itself is great, I really am

incredibly blessed that the content

476

that we're marketing is that strong.

477

John: Brian and I are always talking

about the importance of a strong product,

478

great marketing can only go so far.

479

You've got to

480

Right.

481

We can get them there, but if, but it's,

we need, we need them to stay there.

482

And that is the amazing

content that we have.

483

So there's so many places

we can keep diving in.

484

But you just touched on the idea of IP.

485

So the intellectual property, let's

think about all these show brands.

486

How do you decide when you're going

to lean into a network brand, Bravo

487

or Oxygen or whatever it is versus

a show and what's the connection?

488

How do you connect those things so that

people understand this is a Bravo show?

489

Ellen: Yeah.

490

So first of all, we make sure that the

architecture of the brand is pretty tight,

491

you know, and we get, we are very careful

in that framework that we put together for

492

each and every brand and in communicating

that framework across the entire.

493

Organization.

494

So that when people are developing

any kind of asset, the show,

495

whatever it is, there is, you know,

there's a structure around it.

496

So when you see a Bravo show, that

storytelling is different from

497

something you'll see on another network.

498

That's number one, right?

499

Then how we market it.

500

We're very careful in making sure

that we have a tight brand structure

501

so that when you see Bravo marketing.

502

You know immediately it's

Bravo when you see a Chucky ad.

503

And remember, Chucky has

incredible IP from the movie

504

John: I don't know if you noticed

Brian perk up when you mentioned

505

Chucky, but heading into he had

something he wanted to ask you about.

506

So,

507

Ellen: I love Chucky.

508

That's a huge IP.

509

And we had to make sure it was, it's

so strong in the movie franchises.

510

We had to make it a TV franchise.

511

Right?

512

And so we had to make sure that

first of all, it's about USA

513

and USA is about its characters.

514

That's like, that's what the brand

has been built on from characters.

515

Welcome to the characters are here.

516

And so Chucky became a character we used.

517

We use the WWE, which, um,

as a, as a launching pad.

518

Also amazing characters, from Raw

as a launching pad to bring the

519

character out of Chucky, which was

embedded in the very essence of USA.

520

So everything we do has to be tied

and closely associated to the brand

521

because we've built that structure,

that framework, that architecture.

522

And everybody touching the brand

should absolutely understand that

523

architecture so that they have a checklist

of what goes and what doesn't go.

524

That isn't to say.

525

that brands aren't alive.

526

They are.

527

We pivot.

528

We stretch.

529

We don't want to.

530

It's not one thing.

531

And sometimes when you hold too

tight and you get too precious about

532

your brand, you can, you can push

away certain potential audiences.

533

And that's, that's actually the

potential downside of a brand.

534

You don't want to get too tight,

just like a person grows and changes.

535

Your brand has to grow and change, but

your core, your essence stays the saMe.

536

Brian: How do you organize and

structure your team so that they can

537

operate within the boundaries of the

brand, but also be able to make quick,

538

snappy decisions to keep moving things

forward and also deal with the real

539

time type of engagement stuff that

540

Ellen: Right.

541

So, um, first of all, the organization

always changes because consumers change.

542

So we've, we, we change

up how we do things.

543

We have, um, we have a whole team, a

center of excellence on brand strategy

544

and their purview is to go in and

understand a, the brand and be the Um,

545

sometimes the shows comes out first

and then the brand comes second, but

546

they write that strategy for us that

then is communicated across marketing.

547

And we also share it, of course, with

production and press, um, so that

548

everybody understands that we're all

working towards this common goal.

549

We have a brand team and a

promotions team, and their job is

550

to steward the brand and the show.

551

And their job is to work with

every department to make sure

552

that we're collaborative.

553

We are nothing if not collaborative.

554

I, that is my number one thing.

555

If you're, I drives me crazy.

556

If people start going,

Oh, this is my area.

557

We don't like that because you

never know where a good idea

558

comes from and you don't care.

559

John: And is that structured along,

like, uh, by a network brand or do you

560

have people who work across network

561

Ellen: We have people across

the brands, across the brands.

562

John: and what, so you mentioned,

you mentioned, uh, that you, you have

563

responsibilities for USA and Sci Fi

too, is that like, so you, you lead

564

marketing teams for all of those?

565

Networks.

566

Ellen: Brand, yes, the consumer

strategy teams and the brand

567

strategy teams, the consumer

engagement and brand strategy teams.

568

Yes.

569

For all of those.

570

And so they all, the brand marketing

group, they work across all of them.

571

We also have a brand growth

and monetization group.

572

This is mainly right now with Bravo.

573

We recognized how big Bravo

Con was and some of our other.

574

events or experiences.

575

And we thought if we can actually

make this, devoted team to this

576

area, then we could, we could grow

it and grow our audience as well.

577

So we literally have pulled out a group.

578

And we're we're looking at BravoCon

as a model on how we can then

579

create all of these other areas.

580

So that's a brand new department

that we hadn't had before.

581

John: So, so BravoCon you said was

huge, um, I'd love to get a sense

582

as to how big that was and I, I

think you had it in New York, right?

583

Ellen: Uh, the first two.

584

This is our third one.

585

So the first two were in New York.

586

It started out.

587

It started out small, about eight to 10,

000 people over the course of three days.

588

The second one in New York was like

around 25 plus to 30 in New York.

589

And we just did in November,

we moved it to Vegas.

590

John: Biggest.

591

Brian: No way.

592

John: Biggest

593

Ellen: was, I was insane.

594

I loved it.

595

And, um, that was 25 to 25 plus

over the course of three days.

596

John: And that, and that's become a whole

new monetization opportunity, right?

597

It's not just about driving audience

engagement and show consumption.

598

It's actually its, its

own moneymaker, right?

599

Anyone

600

Ellen: right.

601

When you, when you get a fan base, it's

That is as invested like our Bravo holics

602

and you have talent, our Bravo lebrities

that are also fans and just invested.

603

It's a perfect combination for bringing

those two entities together in a,

604

in a, and we created an environment

that was wholly and purely Bravo.

605

It was just, it's amazing.

606

It was panels, but it was photo ops.

607

It was a museum, a deconstructed

museum where you saw moments

608

throughout Bravo history, and you could

actually insert yourself, you know,

609

everything's an Instagram of a moment.

610

So you could insert yourself

into these incredible moments,

611

or you could just watch them.

612

And there are, and surprising delights,

just talent because the talents love

613

their fans and the talents are fans.

614

So they would just walk around and

all of a sudden you would just see.

615

Bravo liberties in the wild.

616

And it was brilliant.

617

It was brilliant.

618

Um, I can't remember which BravoCon

it was, but we had people saying, you

619

know, marriage, children, BravoCon,

that was the order of importance.

620

And so connecting is also a reason

why this growth and monetization

621

group, came to being because we

knew it was core to the, to the

622

framework, to the essence of, of Bravo.

623

And so what better way to grow the brand

than through connections and community.

624

So again, everything comes back when

you have a really strong framework.

625

Brian: Can you tell us a little bit

about what it's like to have somebody

626

like Andy Cohen, um, who's so magnetic

and kind of a marketing machine

627

on his own, as well as the other,

628

Ellen: Quite the charmer.

629

Brian: Yeah.

630

But like, I mean, I just feel like

having somebody like that in your

631

back pocket has got to be amazing.

632

Ellen: it's not bad.

633

It's not bad.

634

So the greatest thing about Andy is

that when I first started at Bravo,

635

Andy was the head of production and

he worked on the brand and he helped

636

build the brand and he knows that

brand like the back of his hand.

637

Andy and the show that he helped

create with Imbravo, Watch What Happens

638

Live, became an opportunity for fans

to really get a recap or an after show.

639

Of what's happening on Bravo, and

the brilliance of it is , he married

640

it with non Bravo celebrities, so

it's not just about Bravo, it's about

641

extending it across all the other

places that you can through different

642

celebrities, through different

bartenders, which if you know the show,

643

you'll know what I'm talking about,

644

John: Yeah, it's so clever.

645

I mean, you watch these aftershows

where, you know, the writers

646

and the producers are talking.

647

It feels very self congratulatory,

but to have others involved in the

648

conversation feels really authentic to

649

Ellen: that's not what Watch

What Happens Live is about.

650

Watch What Happens Live is about

is, again, it's Everyone talks as

651

if they're a fan and a friend of the

brand and that's why he's so great

652

because And he is the ultimate fan.

653

He really is he loves every show

He watches all the shows and then

654

he talks about them and he asks all

the questions That everyone wants

655

to know, not to mention, he asks for

questions and he's, he never shies away.

656

He probably does and I don't know,

but it doesn't seem like he ever

657

shies away from a hard question.

658

He's such an open book, um, and

he's really there for the brand.

659

He really is.

660

John: Well, it helped craft it.

661

So, yeah, like you said,

662

Ellen: He did.

663

John: you couldn't

664

Ellen: did.

665

So that was probably one of the

best parts about Andy is that

666

he really knows everything and

all the players from the get go.

667

And he cares.

668

He cares so deeply.

669

John: It's obvious you get

really excited when you talk

670

about the shows and the talent.

671

It's cool to see, like, you,

you've got an energy around it.

672

Is, is there like a favorite promo

or campaign that you've done to drive

673

one of these things to new heights?

674

Ellen: Um, I think I have a favorite.

675

I mean, I love what we did with

Vanderpump and how we, how we were

676

able to really pivot and give our

fans what they needed when such a

677

big, um, cultural moment happened.

678

I love that.

679

That was, I was so proud of my

team and everybody in the company.

680

I, it was amazing.

681

Um, I loved when Bravo decided to

try scripted, not our usual fare.

682

And we created, um, a huge

campaign against the, the, the

683

drama Dirty John and worked with

Oxygen who did the reality version.

684

Of Dirty John.

685

That was amazing because both brands

work together to make sure that

686

that was one of the biggest scripted

unscripted moments at the time.

687

And you, and that was a priority

across the entire NBCU enterprise,

688

Yes, it was.

689

John: got promotion on

all the other networks.

690

Can you tell us about

how that machine works?

691

It's

692

Ellen: So, we have Symphony,

which is, what Steve Burke

693

used to call our secret sauce.

694

And that is an area that was developed

by a former CMO at NBC, John Miller,

695

NBCU I should say, John Miller.

696

And now is headed up by Jenny Storms, who

is the CMO of, entertainment and sports.

697

And what she does is look at all the

priorities across the company, whether

698

it's movies, whether it's TV shows,

whether it's Comcast, priorities, and

699

she helps navigate how to utilize each

brand's assets and, platforms to raise.

700

the awareness of whatever priority it is.

701

And those priorities are, agreed

to at the highest level, right?

702

So the biggest one that when it

first started, it started with

703

this little movie called the

minions that no one had heard of.

704

And the next thing, you know, all

of our brands, Bravo, everyone was

705

creating some housewives minions.

706

tagline, whatever it could be.

707

when we had Chucky, we knew that we

wanted to get a male audience and sports

708

raised their hands and we were able to

do some really great sports integration.

709

So Symphony is our way of looking

at how each of the networks can

710

support , something in a very

effective and efficient way.

711

John: I'm seeing, I'm seeing the Olympics

promoted, pretty broadly in a lot of

712

different ways across all the networks.

713

I guess that's another example.

714

Ellen: Absolutely

715

Brian: I imagine it can get

pretty competitive on, you know,

716

promotion on, on peacock, you

know, like what, what kind of gets.

717

Ellen: right.

718

They do have a lot going on.

719

So, yes.

720

We all are, and we all have our children,

so we all want us to be promoted.

721

but, but that's the other thing we

understand that, the prioritization

722

is created due to the opportunity

of a show and due to what it's

723

going to do for the brand.

724

And that's how you start prioritizing.

725

Where is the audience?

726

What is the ultimate opportunity

for both that show As well as how

727

is that going to affect the brands?

728

So that's how you're prioritizing things.

729

Everything is getting support, certain

things are getting more support

730

upon the opportunity it presents.

731

Brian: So much opportunity, also so

much noise, know, what are the biggest

732

challenges and just trying to cut through

that and, and having, I mean, you have so

733

many great storylines and characters and

all these things, but, it's, even when

734

you have those things, it doesn't always

mean that you're going to be successful.

735

So, where do you find it most difficult?

736

Ellen: Well, I mean, what you just

said, cutting through all of the

737

clutter is really, really hard.

738

and finding your audience is hard.

739

There are so many places to, to

find them and, and welcome them.

740

But again, we all have limited resources.

741

And so.

742

We're very, very strategic

about where we place our bets.

743

We work with research.

744

We work with the show producers.

745

We work with press.

746

We work with social.

747

We really need to understand what are

the opportunities that are going to

748

afford us the biggest bang for our buck.

749

media.

750

We have an incredible media group head

headed by Kirsten Beatty, and she is

751

constantly working with agencies, working

with data, working with research to

752

make sure that A, we have the best, most

effective and efficient buys out there.

753

B, that as data changes, as people's

behavior changes, we're on top of it.

754

And she shares that with everybody.

755

you know, it's not just one thing.

756

Nowadays, you just really have to

be tapping into so many areas to

757

see where the audience is going.

758

and then you just, there's the art, right?

759

And then you're placing your own bet.

760

You're, what is your gut telling you?

761

John: Ellen, you just talked

about the idea of media buys.

762

talked a little bit about, you

know, inventory, ad inventory,

763

be that on your own networks or

sister networks promoting content.

764

how much time do you spend?

765

Buying time and money.

766

You can't tell the numbers, I'm sure,

but How much, how much investment do

767

you have to make in buying, real estate,

promotional real estate on other non

768

owned networks to drive viewership?

769

Ellen: Well,

770

John: priority?

771

Ellen: it, it's, it's always,

in order to get a new audience,

772

you have to leave your own.

773

environment, right?

774

So in order for us to expand our

audience, our reach, we need to go

775

and find new like minded audiences

to bring them into our fold.

776

And so it's a huge priority

owned and earned and paid.

777

All of that is a priority.

778

I'd like to say I don't even know how

I would percentage allocate it, but

779

paid is definitely something we need

because while we want to work with press

780

and get as much earned as we can, we

want to create that that viral moment.

781

And we do paid affords us an ability

to be really, strategic in grabbing

782

an audience that is similar in it.

783

behavior in look in demographic to what we

already know, likes our show, our network.

784

And it lets us to go out there

and find them and bring them in.

785

So it's, it's, I, it's hugely important.

786

John: Yeah.

787

So, yeah, I'm sure you can't tell us

about a percentage, but, you know, is,

788

is, is, is your, your focus on buying,

uh, inventory on other non owned networks

789

to drive your audience something that is

like a greater need than it used to be?

790

Ellen: it's it's harder.

791

It's a harder thing to do because

there are so many places to go.

792

So data becomes really important for

us to go out there and and be whether

793

it's programmatic or it's terror

picking picking those great big shows.

794

It's just incredibly important for us to

be able to do that in an effective way.

795

So it is it is really important.

796

But I can't tell you the power of

earned media because that's giving

797

you a social context and conversation

that's more organic, right?

798

So it's kind of like that old thing

when, back in the day when a magazine

799

would call you up and be like, we

are doing a two page spread on you.

800

So, can you buy another page?

801

And then you thought to yourself,

do I buy the page so I reinforce

802

what's happening in the spread?

803

Or, is the spread enough?

804

Do I really need a page

because I got people there?

805

That's the question all the time

that we're asking ourselves.

806

What is the relationship

between owned and earned?

807

And sometimes you

absolutely buy that page.

808

And sometimes you just let it go and

have the conversation speak for itself,

809

Brian: well, it just depends and, you

know, just flex based off of, I mean, just

810

the fact that you have the own stuff and,

you know, some of the non scripted space.

811

You know, you have the Bravo

liberties who can get the word

812

out and the conversations there.

813

You don't need to rely on the other stuff.

814

Whereas maybe like a new scripted

program might need a little bit more.

815

Ellen: little more help.

816

Brian: yeah.

817

I'm kind of fascinated by the

recent, development of, you know,

818

the, the reemergence of a program like

suits on Netflix, you know, posts.

819

I mean, like, what a fascinating thing

that's become, you know, what are

820

your, what are your thoughts on that?

821

And, uh, have you been

watching that pretty closely?

822

Ellen: Um, I have, well, first

of all, I love Suits when, when

823

it was on USA the first time.

824

yeah, I think I, you know, Netflix has an

incredible recommendation algorithm that

825

allows You know, allow shows to surface

at the right time to the right audience.

826

And I love any time that there's

a re emergence of a show.

827

I think it's amazing.

828

Do I wish it was re emerging on USA?

829

I do!

830

But, right now I went on and I can

find Shaws of Sunset on Netflix.

831

And I love it because it's,

it's our storytelling.

832

And I think that they don't try

to shy away from the bravo of it.

833

You know, but, yeah, it's, it's hard

to see our brand, our shows on another

834

Brian: Yeah.

835

Ellen: platform, but, you know,

it does give us a new audience for

836

them to discover Bravo and discover

USA and discover what we're about.

837

So, you know, it's interesting.

838

It's interesting.

839

John: Netflix someday, maybe I'll

be watching Suits and I'll see you

840

promote the next season of Real

841

Ellen: I just, I love that now

they're all doing ad supported

842

and they were just like, Peacock,

why are you going ad supported?

843

And we're like, you'll see.

844

John: Yeah.

845

Because everything's getting so

expensive, you're going to need

846

to have a lower priced tier.

847

That's one reason.

848

Ellen: Yeah.

849

Yeah.

850

Yeah.

851

Brian: Yeah.

852

You know, and it's just,

it's such a wild landscape.

853

I mean, you also have the kind of

reverse story where, Peacock has

854

the rights to the show Yellowstone

repeats and that's bringing a

855

lot of traffic into Peacock too.

856

So I

857

Ellen: Yeah, Yellowstone has been

great on Peacock and, you know, that's

858

also the wonderful thing about Peacock

is that you've got the new originals

859

and you've got a library of content.

860

You've got the office, you've got

Yellowstone, you've got an entire

861

library of Bravo, can't, can't say

it enough, an entire library of Bravo

862

John: Well, and what you're saying

is if someone subscribes to Peacock,

863

they get an entire library of Bravo?

864

Ellen: That's kind of what I'm saying.

865

John: Act now.

866

Operators are standing by.

867

Ellen: See, I'm a marketer.

868

I am.

869

John: We're here to help

you sell some shows.

870

Absolutely.

871

Ellen: Yeah.

872

Brian: one of the things that we like

to do on this podcast is really talk

873

a little bit about, you know, not just

kind of what you're doing now and where

874

you're going, but also like how you

got here and, you know, you've had an

875

amazing career and, the, the landscape

has changed tremendously, but, uh, we'd

876

love to kind of hear about, you know,

where are the big milestones for you that

877

kind of got you to where you are today?

878

Ellen: I started in media, but back

when the media agencies weren't media

879

agencies, they were just kind of

like these little entities that both

880

that that bought tonnage, really.

881

And it was a company called Vipmedia.

882

And I was there for about a year and

a half realizing that this wasn't

883

the heart of what I wanted to be

doing, but I was a media person.

884

I just kept kind of increasing

my, the size of the agency.

885

So I went from a media agency to a

full service, but small agency, called

886

Margiotis, Fertitta Weiss, now defunct.

887

And then I went larger and larger and,

I was able to really participate on

888

some great campaigns that weren't just

about, quote unquote, advertising.

889

When I got to Bozell, and

again, now defunct, so don't

890

try and find these agencies.

891

But when I got to Bozell, I was on

that milk campaign that you mentioned.

892

And that was the first time that I was

really doing 360 touch advertising,

893

where I understood that it's really

not just about the print dad and

894

the TV spot and the radio ad.

895

It's about, Every single touch point

of the consumer people had talked about

896

it and I always spouted it But I didn't

really understand it until I understood

897

until I got a hold of this Mill campaign

which was the first time I put out a book

898

about advertising And the first time we

had people touring and integrations from

899

PR and stuff like that And then while

I was working on the the mill campaign

900

there was You know, that was when the

big agencies were actually splitting

901

apart and you were getting these huge

strategic media houses that were coming to

902

life as well as the creative, strategic,

and they were becoming more boutique

903

y, than what it was in the combined.

904

And as that breakup was happening,

I was able to transfer from pure

905

advertising over to the brand side.

906

And I ended up going to Lifetime

to head up their consumer

907

marketing group, which was all.

908

Scripted and it was really

interesting and, um, I loved it.

909

And I was there for a number of years,

and while I was there, we were going

910

through times with, I learned about the

affiliates and the MVPs, you know, your

911

Comcast, your, spectrums and all those,

really important areas in, television.

912

And, my copywriter came in and

said, Hey, brought this new.

913

Network or revamped network.

914

She said, bravo.

915

Have you seen their stuff?

916

They're great.

917

And they're looking

for a head of consumer.

918

And I was like, I have seen their

stuff because they've We always

919

plastered the out of home in New York.

920

And I said, Oh, that's really interesting.

921

And I'm like, I don't, I don't have time.

922

I have so much to do.

923

I don't have time.

924

And she's just like, Cynthia

synopsis, just apply.

925

What's it going to do?

926

And I was like, all

right, I'll apply online.

927

And I applied online for

the head of consumer.

928

John: So all of those milestones

that Brian asked you about along

929

the way to get to where you are now.

930

Did you ever think you would be in

charge of setting the tone for a

931

really big portion of pop culture?

932

Because that's where you are now.

933

Ellen: did not, I did not.

934

And I have to say, I would

love to take all the credit

935

because I am due all the credit.

936

No, I'm just kidding.

937

But Bravo was built.

938

In a collaborative group of people.

939

It was there was not one person that

can take sole responsibility for Bravo.

940

It really was.

941

And it has been.

942

And it's one of the things I love most

about my job is that I know that whether

943

it's the head of press, whether it's

the head of Whether it's Frances Barak,

944

who is now the chairman of everything.

945

She's so wonderful.

946

I know that everyone will take

a moment and say, we have an

947

issue or we have an opportunity.

948

No matter who it is, I can call

someone and they'll step back and

949

I'll say, let's talk it through

and let's all get on board.

950

And that's how Bravo was built.

951

And Andy Coe.

952

Brian: I'd love to hear about the,

uh, what you guys have done with

953

the Oxygen Network and how you've

rebranded that in the True Crime

954

Ellen: Yeah.

955

Oxygen has been the little engine that

could, when we got, when we first got

956

oxygen, it was another woman's brand.

957

And remember I was coming off of

years at lifetime and we got it.

958

And what we started to recognize was

it is definitely a woman's brand,

959

but a general, a generalist or a

broad woman's brand, it is not.

960

There were too many places already that

had those securely, that audience secured.

961

And we took a step back and we said,

what are the two biggest shows on oxygen?

962

I, it was, and again, collaborative,

and we said, we have bad girls club.

963

I'm not sure if you know what that is,

but that was a show about bad girls.

964

Okay.

965

It was a show about bad girls.

966

And, um, it was interesting.

967

It was, um, it was a difficult

show because it was, you know,

968

you were watching it because

you couldn't believe it was OMG.

969

And we thought, what is the.

970

Expansion of that.

971

You know what I mean?

972

That level of OMG.

973

And that was just hard to

to kind of figure it out.

974

And then we also had snapped

women who snapped in crime.

975

And no matter where we put

it, no matter what we did with

976

it, people came and found it.

977

And, um, I wish it was me.

978

It wasn't me.

979

But someone came in from

the executive team and said,

980

Why don't we pivot to crime?

981

And we did a lot of research and

we did a lot of, um, audience

982

shifting and sifting to see, do we

have the shows that could do it?

983

And we started building

shows around true crime and

984

John: a big decision to shift the

personality of the network based on the

985

fact that you saw two shows catch fire.

986

Interesting.

987

Ellen: it was huge.

988

And here's what I will say, and

this is goes for all the brands.

989

We are not scared of risk.

990

We're just, it's gotta be smart.

991

We've got to have our ducks in the row

before we do something big like that.

992

And we, again, we saw the interest

and the excitement around snapped.

993

And it wasn't like we said we're

going to kill everything all together.

994

We still had bad girls on the

network because we knew we still

995

needed that audience and the

opportunity to convert them.

996

But we went in July of 2017, I

think was when we switched over.

997

I can't even remember.

998

I might get that wrong.

999

We switched over pretty, pretty full on.

00:46:22,717 --> 00:46:28,362

And we were able to We were able to

compete with the big guy, which is ID,

00:46:28,372 --> 00:46:33,712

and they're great for what they do, but

we were giving a quality of storytelling

00:46:33,712 --> 00:46:35,362

that you couldn't find anywhere else.

00:46:35,542 --> 00:46:38,592

So again, our content was a little

bit different from what you were

00:46:38,592 --> 00:46:40,612

getting in other crime places.

00:46:40,912 --> 00:46:45,102

We really look for quality in

things like a show about Aaron

00:46:45,102 --> 00:46:48,252

Hernandez and disappearance

of all these different people.

00:46:48,442 --> 00:46:52,352

We were very respectful and very

careful in our storytelling.

00:46:52,412 --> 00:46:54,222

So again, content, content, content,

00:46:54,617 --> 00:46:59,177

Brian: and it's definitely an area that

drives consumer engagement too, you know,

00:46:59,237 --> 00:47:04,977

and and different types of conversation

outside of just itself and, yeah,

00:47:05,252 --> 00:47:08,962

Ellen: Peacock also has done really

well with a lot of the oxygen content

00:47:08,962 --> 00:47:11,642

because crime is crime is good.

00:47:12,022 --> 00:47:15,592

No crime is an area that continues

to have a lot of viewership.

00:47:15,614 --> 00:47:16,144

Brian: that's awesome.

00:47:16,184 --> 00:47:18,134

Ellen: Crime is not good for

anybody listening to this podcast.

00:47:18,224 --> 00:47:18,544

Brian: Everything.

00:47:18,884 --> 00:47:20,314

Crime equals good.

00:47:20,484 --> 00:47:23,724

No,

00:47:24,609 --> 00:47:27,069

John: She is advocating making

really smart decisions based

00:47:27,069 --> 00:47:28,269

on seeing a crime show catch.

00:47:28,416 --> 00:47:30,406

It's an amazing bit of decision making.

00:47:30,624 --> 00:47:36,537

Ellen: Bravo also used one show as a, as a

guidepost to where we went with our brand.

00:47:36,597 --> 00:47:41,144

little show called Queer Eye for the

00:47:41,144 --> 00:47:42,744

straight guy, later just Queer Eye.

00:47:42,811 --> 00:47:46,551

And Bravo saw in that a model.

00:47:46,622 --> 00:47:51,512

For the types of shows that we then

really leaned hard hard into there

00:47:51,512 --> 00:47:55,602

was food fashion beauty design

and pop culture and pop culture.

00:47:55,696 --> 00:48:00,669

I mean, that really, that really

launched a whole era of the brand.

00:48:00,669 --> 00:48:02,479

But you'll know we had project runway.

00:48:02,479 --> 00:48:03,529

We have top chef.

00:48:03,529 --> 00:48:06,019

we had beauty shows like sheer genius.

00:48:06,089 --> 00:48:09,549

We had real houses filled

the pop culture bucket.

00:48:09,579 --> 00:48:12,649

I mean, I can tell you who the guys

were on the query back in our day

00:48:12,706 --> 00:48:15,809

and yeah, And the buckets that they

filled in terms of our content.

00:48:15,862 --> 00:48:16,272

John: Amazing.

00:48:16,466 --> 00:48:20,046

Ellen: So it's great when you can

really look at a show and be able to

00:48:20,086 --> 00:48:22,096

take that show and move it forward.

00:48:22,149 --> 00:48:25,359

John: Well, Ellen, we are, we are

at time, and you've been really

00:48:25,359 --> 00:48:28,289

gracious with yours, and we were

thrilled for the conversation.

00:48:28,289 --> 00:48:31,539

We've probably talked to you for a long,

long time about navigating this crazy

00:48:31,569 --> 00:48:35,259

media ecosystem, but we love what you've

shared with us so far, so thank you.

00:48:35,359 --> 00:48:35,872

Ellen: My pleasure.

00:48:35,872 --> 00:48:36,312

Thank you.

00:48:36,381 --> 00:48:36,791

Brian: thank you.

00:48:36,929 --> 00:48:37,699

John: You have a great day.

00:48:37,699 --> 00:48:38,339

Thanks, Ellen.

00:48:38,432 --> 00:48:38,922

Ellen: Bye guys.

00:48:40,201 --> 00:48:42,368

John: Well, Ryan, it's hard

to say goodbye, isn't it?

00:48:42,435 --> 00:48:45,765

Brian: It's so hard to say goodbye.

00:48:47,285 --> 00:48:50,785

John: It's even harder to listen to

you sing than it's hard to say goodbye.

00:48:50,971 --> 00:48:54,575

it was great to have, Ellen,

she's got such a, such a

00:48:54,605 --> 00:48:56,565

complicated job, so, God bless her.

00:48:56,565 --> 00:48:57,725

It's a good thing she's really smart.

00:48:57,865 --> 00:49:02,948

all right, before we wrap up here,

uh, it's time for our, our usual Dear

00:49:02,948 --> 00:49:04,598

Hopelessly Unattainable Guest segment.

00:49:04,698 --> 00:49:06,878

Brian: Who were you bringing in

that we're not gonna bring in?

00:49:07,643 --> 00:49:09,363

John: Hey, now, Brian,

you're gonna like this one.

00:49:09,498 --> 00:49:09,888

Brian: Okay.

00:49:10,010 --> 00:49:15,693

John: Alright, dear Jason Kelsey,

as you know, we've asked giants

00:49:15,693 --> 00:49:20,233

from tech, media, music, and sports

to be our guest on Snap Decision.

00:49:20,283 --> 00:49:24,896

You're not only a giant human, you're a

giant in sports, media, and pop culture.

00:49:24,896 --> 00:49:29,190

Brian and I are massive Philly sports

fans, so your status as an Eagles football

00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:32,520

superstar is reason enough for us to

be really excited about you joining us.

00:49:32,636 --> 00:49:35,026

But now you're a podcasting legend too.

00:49:35,026 --> 00:49:37,926

With the New Heights podcast

you produce with Taylor Swift's

00:49:37,946 --> 00:49:39,243

boyfriend, Travis Kelsey.

00:49:39,346 --> 00:49:44,036

Note, this is not a cheap ploy to

get to Taylor, one of our previous

00:49:44,126 --> 00:49:45,566

Hopelessly Unattainable guests.

00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:47,110

Uh, dude, you're a legend.

00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:51,110

You're a surefire first ballot

Hall of Famer, the greatest

00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:52,920

center in Eagles history.

00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,260

You've got a bright future in

broadcasting awaiting you if you want it.

00:49:56,290 --> 00:49:58,120

Most important, you're

a man of the people.

00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:03,430

Never has an athlete so much

love unanimously among us

00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,310

fickle, ruthless Philly fans.

00:50:05,370 --> 00:50:06,280

And it's not just us.

00:50:06,460 --> 00:50:10,870

You won over a hostile crowd with

your shirtless beer chugging antics

00:50:10,870 --> 00:50:14,703

during your brother's recent playoff

win on the road in Frozen Buffalo.

00:50:14,703 --> 00:50:19,906

It is completely implausible that an

Eagles star player could celebrate

00:50:19,956 --> 00:50:24,716

a Chiefs touchdown amid thousands

of angry Bills fans, but you did.

00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:25,870

Jason, come join us.

00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:26,910

Teach us podcasting.

00:50:26,966 --> 00:50:28,626

Take off your shirt and

chug a beer with us.

00:50:28,721 --> 00:50:30,128

Your pals, John and Brian.

00:50:30,336 --> 00:50:33,626

Brian: I mean, John, I I think

he's I think we can get him.

00:50:33,901 --> 00:50:34,791

John: I agree.

00:50:34,896 --> 00:50:35,766

Brian: of the people.

00:50:35,766 --> 00:50:37,006

Why wouldn't he want to talk to us?

00:50:37,071 --> 00:50:40,181

John: He goes to the same McDonald's

and Brewmall every day, apparently.

00:50:40,181 --> 00:50:42,301

We could just camp out there

and just, you know, picket him.

00:50:42,470 --> 00:50:43,330

Brian: That's a good idea.

00:50:43,330 --> 00:50:44,470

We'll buy him some nuggets.

00:50:45,865 --> 00:50:48,295

John: the first time we actually take

some action about getting one of these.

00:50:48,595 --> 00:50:50,055

Hope we'll see unattainable guests.

00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:52,660

Brian: We gotta, we gotta act on these.

00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:53,670

He's close.

00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,210

He's in our city.

00:50:55,325 --> 00:50:57,415

John: This feels like a,

like a gettable thing.

00:50:57,475 --> 00:50:57,805

Yeah.

00:50:57,930 --> 00:50:59,800

I'm going to put this on your to do list.

00:50:59,901 --> 00:51:00,331

Brian: Okay.

00:51:00,331 --> 00:51:00,741

I'm on it.

00:51:00,898 --> 00:51:01,168

John: all right.

00:51:01,168 --> 00:51:02,048

That's all I got, sir.

00:51:02,373 --> 00:51:02,693

Brian: right.

00:51:02,693 --> 00:51:02,973

All right.

00:51:03,053 --> 00:51:03,493

Nice.

00:51:03,523 --> 00:51:05,033

Nice, uh, getting back together.

00:51:05,318 --> 00:51:05,788

John: Yes.

00:51:05,988 --> 00:51:10,638

forward to our next episode.

00:51:10,638 --> 00:51:11,268

Brian: See ya.

00:51:11,268 --> 00:51:11,808

John: Bye.