LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:00

I think normalising that it isn't all roses and lavender-scented

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:05

oils is really important, because I certainly went into it...

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:09

whilst I was aware of postnatal depression, I had absolutely no

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:15

idea that those mental health issues could present during pregnancy.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:20

And I think normalising that, that "This happens and it's okay to feel

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:25

like this, it's okay that you are not enjoying it" is so important.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:31

I was suffering with rage.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:33

And that is something that I'd never experienced before and

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:37

was really embarrassed about it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:40

And unfortunately for my husband, he obviously sort of took the brunt of

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:44

that rage and that sort of increased anxiety and emotions associated with it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:50

It kind of felt like an out-of-body experience the

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:53

first few times it happened.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:55

It would take me by surprise.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:56

You know, it'd be, at the drop of a hat, something would happen.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:00:59

And that something could be really trivial, but it would

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:02

be enough to trigger this rage.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:06

it's not something that I'd ever experienced.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:09

So yes, it was quite frightening, but it was really embarrassing.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:13

I certainly didn't want to tell anyone else about it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:16

Obviously my husband witnessed it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:18

But telling, you know, a friend or family or a healthcare professional

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:24

was absolutely not something that I was prepared to do at that stage because

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:28

yeah, I didn't want to admit to it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:30

I was embarrassed.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:31

At the time I really felt alone.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:35

So I, yeah, I hope that others don't feel alone, you know,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:01:39

if they're listening to this.

VIKKI: 00:01:45

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

VIKKI: 00:01:49

But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at

VIKKI: 00:01:54

times the darkest of places.

VIKKI: 00:01:57

Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

VIKKI: 00:02:01

struggling with parenting.

VIKKI: 00:02:04

All the stories shared here are from the heart.

VIKKI: 00:02:07

These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

VIKKI: 00:02:10

please listen with discretion.

VIKKI: 00:02:13

Today's episode covers feelings of suicide.

VIKKI: 00:02:17

We will also signpost you to help in the show notes.

VIKKI: 00:02:20

Thank you.

VIKKI: 00:02:23

This episode was recorded during the autumn of 2022.

VIKKI: 00:02:28

Today's guest is Laura Bisbey.

VIKKI: 00:02:30

Laura is a chartered town planner and works for St.

VIKKI: 00:02:33

Modwen Homes.

VIKKI: 00:02:34

Her daughter Charlotte was born in 2018 and Laura was diagnosed with perinatal

VIKKI: 00:02:40

distress during pregnancy, which continued following the birth of her daughter.

VIKKI: 00:02:45

She's here with us today to share her story.

VIKKI: 00:02:48

Welcome to Blue MumDays Laura, thank you so much for joining us.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:02:51

Hi Vikki thanks for having me.

VIKKI: 00:02:53

So are you happy to start off in the beginning, if we talk

VIKKI: 00:02:57

about how pregnancy was for you?

VIKKI: 00:03:00

Was it a planned pregnancy?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:02

Yeah.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:03

Um, it was, it was planned and when I found out I was pregnant, uh, I

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:08

was very excited was looking forward to the 12 week scan and making

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:14

sure that everything was okay.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:17

And things at the start seemed good.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:22

And then probably about week 15, I started to notice that I had got increased

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:31

anxiety, something I hadn't, or at a level I'd never really experienced before.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:38

And I was suffering with rage.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:41

Um, and that is something that I'd never experienced before , and

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:45

was really embarrassed about it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:49

And unfortunately for my husband, he obviously sort of took the brunt of

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:53

that rage and that sort of increased anxiety and emotions associated with it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:03:59

And following a particularly difficult incident, we both agreed that it

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:04

would be best to go to the doctors and talk to them about what was going

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:08

on, which we did, and they were great.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:11

I was referred into the perinatal mental health team and I was, um, assigned

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:18

a mental health nurse who came to see me regularly, and also was under

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:23

the care of a psychologist as well.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:26

And they were very good in putting sort of strategies in place to help me deal

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:32

with that anxiety that I was feeling.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:36

I think probably things felt like they were on the up.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:40

I was not struggling as much as perhaps I was before we'd spoken to the doctor

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:46

and was getting a lot from talking to, you know, to the mental health nurse on

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:49

a weekly basis and to the psychologist.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:52

Unfortunately when I was 28 weeks pregnant I broke my arm in two places.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:04:58

Which just compounded an already tricky situation, really.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:05:02

My arm couldn't be operated on, so they, um, put me back together as

LAURA BISBEY: 00:05:06

best they could in A + E (Accident and Emergency) and I was told to

LAURA BISBEY: 00:05:10

sit still basically for six weeks.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:05:12

So it felt a very lonely six weeks.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:05:17

And obviously the feelings that had developed through pregnancy

LAURA BISBEY: 00:05:21

just became exacerbated.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:05:25

So it was a tricky time and I, I didn't enjoy it and I felt really guilty for

LAURA BISBEY: 00:05:30

not enjoying what should be you know, a really exciting, joyful time of your life.

VIKKI: 00:05:38

That sort of feeling of guilt about not enjoying part of the

VIKKI: 00:05:42

pregnancy or sort of the aftermath, you know, once you've given birth.

VIKKI: 00:05:46

That's something that seems to be very common in women and there is this sort

VIKKI: 00:05:50

of perpetuation of this myth that it's all roses, it's all lavender-scented

VIKKI: 00:05:55

fluffy towels and sunshine and, you know, wonderful bonding moments.

VIKKI: 00:06:00

But actually for a lot of people it can be at times really grim.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:06:05

Yes.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:06:06

I think normalising that, that it isn't all roses and lavender-scented

LAURA BISBEY: 00:06:12

oils is really important, because I certainly went into it...

LAURA BISBEY: 00:06:16

whilst I was aware of postnatal depression, I had absolutely no

LAURA BISBEY: 00:06:22

idea that those mental health issues could present during pregnancy.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:06:27

And I think normalising that, that "This happens and it's okay to feel

LAURA BISBEY: 00:06:32

like this, it's okay that you are not enjoying it" is so important.

VIKKI: 00:06:38

Yeah, absolutely.

VIKKI: 00:06:39

So I had my son in 2012, and I know it was broached by the N.C.T.

VIKKI: 00:06:45

(National Childbirth Trust) class that I went to, but it was very

VIKKI: 00:06:49

much "Some women get P.N.D.

VIKKI: 00:06:51

(Postnatal Depression), here's a leaflet"- or I don't even think I got

VIKKI: 00:06:54

a leaflet- but it very much seemed an 'other' thing that "If you are

VIKKI: 00:06:58

really unlucky, you'll get this."

VIKKI: 00:07:00

Rather than it being an in inclusive thing that actually

VIKKI: 00:07:03

many of us, it's so common...

LAURA BISBEY: 00:07:05

hmm.

VIKKI: 00:07:06

...at least one in five women and at least one in 10 men

VIKKI: 00:07:11

get postnatal depression or other perinatal mental health issues.

VIKKI: 00:07:16

But one thing I'd love to learn more about, because I've heard it come up

VIKKI: 00:07:20

time and again with my listeners, but it's not something that I personally

VIKKI: 00:07:25

experienced, but this, feeling of rage.

VIKKI: 00:07:27

And I can imagine that it's a very difficult thing to experience.

VIKKI: 00:07:34

And also, you know, sense of if you're not normally an angry person, that

VIKKI: 00:07:39

must be quite a frightening experience.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:07:42

Yeah, it, was strange.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:07:43

It kind of felt like an out-of-body experience the

LAURA BISBEY: 00:07:46

first few times it happened.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:07:48

It would take me by surprise.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:07:49

You know, it'd be, at the drop of a hat, something would happen.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:07:52

And that something could be really trivial, but it would

LAURA BISBEY: 00:07:55

be enough to trigger this rage.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:07:58

And as I said earlier, it's not something that I'd ever experienced.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:02

So yes, it was quite frightening, but it was really embarrassing.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:06

I certainly didn't want to tell anyone else about it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:09

Obviously my husband witnessed it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:12

But telling, you know, a friend or family or a healthcare professional

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:18

was absolutely not something that I was prepared to do at that stage because

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:22

yeah, I didn't want to admit to it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:23

I was embarrassed.

VIKKI: 00:08:25

When you spoke to your G.P.

VIKKI: 00:08:26

(General Practitioner) -because it's wonderful that you got support and it

VIKKI: 00:08:30

sounds like you got support quite quickly- were they explaining or normalising

VIKKI: 00:08:36

that change in your emotional behavior?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:40

Um, I wouldn't say that the G.P.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:43

was.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:44

They were very good and - as you've sort of pointed out- I was looked after

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:48

very quickly and the right frameworks were put in place to look after me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:52

But actually it was when I had those conversations with the mental

LAURA BISBEY: 00:08:56

health nurse, with the psychologist, that I really became aware that,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:09:02

you know, this was normal.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:09:04

You could experience this, this rage during pregnancy.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:09:10

And that was reassuring, to know that this wasn't just

LAURA BISBEY: 00:09:14

me who was feeling like this.

VIKKI: 00:09:16

I think you talking about this, so honestly and openly and bravely I

VIKKI: 00:09:21

think will be so helpful to so many listeners out there, you know, people

VIKKI: 00:09:26

who have gone through that experience.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:09:28

I hope so, because that was something that at

LAURA BISBEY: 00:09:31

the time I really felt alone.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:09:34

So I, yeah, I hope that others don't feel alone, you know,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:09:39

if they're listening to this.

VIKKI: 00:09:40

And that it's absolutely not your fault.

VIKKI: 00:09:42

It's something chemical or something that's happening to you and it's

VIKKI: 00:09:48

not your personal responsibility and it's not you, it's the illness.

VIKKI: 00:09:54

And I think that's really important to get across.

VIKKI: 00:09:58

So, wow, my God, you really went through it.

VIKKI: 00:10:01

And are you happy to talk about that experience of when you broke your arm?

VIKKI: 00:10:05

Because that must have been a very, very difficult thing for you.

VIKKI: 00:10:08

You know, you were already finding your pregnancy difficult, but to then

VIKKI: 00:10:12

have that and that enforced rest, that must have felt very challenging?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:10:18

It, yeah, it was very challenging, I really felt very alone.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:10:24

I was in a lot of pain.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:10:25

Obviously pain relief was fairly limited.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:10:28

Uh, and what had been given to me, I, I didn't really want to take as well.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:10:34

I, I was nervous about what that might do you know, to my baby.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:10:40

Um, so I sort of grinned and beared it for six weeks.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:10:45

Um, it was very boring at time.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:10:48

I, you know, I, The only place I went was for my checkups at hospital.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:10:54

And when my arm came outta the cast completely, which was, um,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:10:59

after nine weeks, they kept it in.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:01

Um, I then was going for weekly physio appointments and I

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:05

wasn't really doing much else.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:07

And in that period our N.C.T.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:10

(National Childbirth Trust) classes had started.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:12

And I remember the first one.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:16

Well, was struggling to dress myself because I was in a cast from fingertip

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:20

to shoulder, and I remember my mum having to come over and make me look

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:26

half presentable to go to this N.C.T.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:28

Class, um, because I wanted to make a good impression to these people.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:34

Um, but everything just seemed tough and I was really thinking "Crikey,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:40

have I done the right thing here?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:41

But, you know, I can't even deal with a broken arm.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:43

How on earth am I gonna deal with with a baby when the baby arrives?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:48

Um, so I think the broken arm certainly just exacerbated that

LAURA BISBEY: 00:11:55

already difficult situation.

VIKKI: 00:11:57

And not just a a small break, it sounds like it was a, a

VIKKI: 00:12:01

really full on one, you know, if you had your whole arm in the cast.

VIKKI: 00:12:05

Do you think because of that sort of enforced time of of rest, do

VIKKI: 00:12:09

you think it didn't help in terms of overthinking about stuff?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:16

Absolutely.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:17

I was sat on my own every day, really, you know.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:21

Okay my parents might pop in for a, you know, a cup of tea, but I was largely

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:25

on my own whilst my husband was at work.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:27

I wasn't working.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:29

You know, I'd be checking my emails, but I wasn't really 'working'.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:33

And I suddenly felt that I wasn't needed at work.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:40

And that time sort of on my own, I, yeah, I just sat and

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:46

thought, and thought and thought.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:48

And I think the only, the only saving grace during that time was that the

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:55

mental health nurse- by this point, you know, I was in the system and

LAURA BISBEY: 00:12:58

the mental health nurse was coming on a weekly basis, which was great.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:13:02

Because it was almost the one thing that I looked forward to, um, during those weeks.

VIKKI: 00:13:09

Did you feel it gave you an opportunity to feel

VIKKI: 00:13:11

sort of seen and heard?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:13:14

Yes.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:13:14

And I think by somebody who understood.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:13:18

that that was really important.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:13:20

I don't think at that point I'd really told anybody how I was feeling apart

LAURA BISBEY: 00:13:27

from obviously my husband was aware.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:13:28

So it almost felt like, uh, a relief every week.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:13:33

You know, I'd got half an hour or an hour or whatever it was

LAURA BISBEY: 00:13:37

to, share what was in my mind.

VIKKI: 00:13:42

And let that mask slip a little.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:13:44

Yes, absolutely.

VIKKI: 00:13:46

Because how many of us - whether it's during pregnancy or whether it's

VIKKI: 00:13:50

after- when you are a new mum or a new parent, you have that mask of

VIKKI: 00:13:55

"Everything's great, everything's fine!"

VIKKI: 00:13:57

or actually for a lot of us, and it, you know, the more we actually

VIKKI: 00:14:00

let our masks down and reveal what's really going on, I think the better.

VIKKI: 00:14:05

Obviously your husband knew that something wasn't quite right.

VIKKI: 00:14:10

Do you feel he had an understanding of what was going on?

VIKKI: 00:14:14

Was he supportive?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:14:16

He was absolutely supportive.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:14:18

I don't think he could understand or really relate to it at the time, and

LAURA BISBEY: 00:14:25

it took us as a couple, a really long time to work out, you know, what

LAURA BISBEY: 00:14:32

the right thing to do was- what was the right thing for him to say

LAURA BISBEY: 00:14:35

at, you know, a moment of rage?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:14:38

What was the right thing to say if I was in a moment of severe

LAURA BISBEY: 00:14:42

sadness, or the right thing to do?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:14:45

I did not want to be cuddled or, you know, hugged in any way.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:14:50

I think my barriers were up all the time.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:14:53

And it was those kind of things that we've, you know, over a very long period

LAURA BISBEY: 00:14:57

of time- this certainly wasn't during pregnancy that we worked this out.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:02

Um, yeah.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:03

Yes.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:04

So Andy was very supportive, but at the time I don't think he

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:08

really understood or could relate to the feelings I was experiencing.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:14

And it took us a really long time, uh, you know, as a couple to work out together

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:19

what the right thing to do, the right thing to say at those particular, you

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:24

know, moments of sadness, moments of rage.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:27

You know, we had to work that out together.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:28

And that took a long time that wasn't resolved during pregnancy, that

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:33

really, continued, uh, you know, following the birth of Charlotte.

VIKKI: 00:15:37

And for anybody that's listening now that's experiencing those

VIKKI: 00:15:41

feelings but finds it very difficult to communicate to their partner, is

VIKKI: 00:15:46

there anything you could sort of say that you found helpful, or advice?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:51

I think for me, when I finally sort of admitted to him how I

LAURA BISBEY: 00:15:58

was feeling, that those moments of rage were- well, he would've known they were

LAURA BISBEY: 00:16:04

not 'normal' because I hadn't done that before- but when I really explained how I

LAURA BISBEY: 00:16:09

was feeling, again, it felt like relief.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:16:13

You know, it was one more person on my side, to sort of support me through it.

VIKKI: 00:16:19

Do you think you were in a sort of extreme 'fight or flight' scenario?

VIKKI: 00:16:23

Do you think that's why you felt so on edge?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:16:28

I think there was an element of that, and I think I was, um,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:16:32

I think I was really scared about what, you know, what the future held - "Would

LAURA BISBEY: 00:16:36

I be a good mum when I went back to work?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:16:39

Would I be a good employee?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:16:42

How would I combine the two roles?"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:16:44

Um, those things were definitely sort of weighing on my mind during pregnancy.

VIKKI: 00:16:52

And was work quite important to you?

VIKKI: 00:16:53

Because you were saying about feeling "not needed" when you broke your arm.

VIKKI: 00:16:57

That must have felt quite difficult for you.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:00

Yes.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:00

Yeah, absolutely.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:01

And I think it was something that, you know, sort of continued in the

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:06

first year of Charlotte's life- that you go from, you know, a hundred miles

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:12

an hour in your profession, knowing what you are doing, day in, day out.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:18

And then for me, that sort of ended unexpectedly, you know.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:22

I didn't have those handovers to my replacement, I didn't

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:27

get to say goodbye to the team.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:28

I didn't have that sort of "Farewell, enjoy your maternity leave" lunch.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:32

And that really grated on me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:34

I found that...

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:36

again, I felt guilty for feeling like, "Gosh, I didn't have a

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:39

lunch", which sounds ridiculous, but, um, you know, "Why me?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:44

Why am I feeling like this?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:46

Why did I break my arm?"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:48

And I think work, work was me and suddenly it wasn't.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:17:55

And that again, took a really long time for me to accept that "Okay, for

LAURA BISBEY: 00:18:03

a period of time, I wasn't going to be, you know, 'Laura, the professional'."

LAURA BISBEY: 00:18:08

I'd got this, this new role.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:18:10

Um, but it also took time at the other end, sort of combining those

LAURA BISBEY: 00:18:17

two roles, you know, learning to be, ' Laura the professional' and

LAURA BISBEY: 00:18:21

'Laura the mum', and how those, you know, how those two roles interacted.

VIKKI: 00:18:25

It's very interesting what you were saying just then about at work

VIKKI: 00:18:30

where you knew what you were doing.

VIKKI: 00:18:31

And I think that's something that I can certainly personally relate to,

VIKKI: 00:18:36

where you are going from something that is relatively under control to a

VIKKI: 00:18:43

completely different role that you have very little control on and it's all new

VIKKI: 00:18:51

and, and it's not like where you can look up one textbook and have the answer?

VIKKI: 00:18:57

There's a million different pieces of advice and God knows, the worst

VIKKI: 00:19:01

thing you can do is Google, which I did frantically, as a new mum!

VIKKI: 00:19:06

Can you relate to that feeling as well?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:19:08

Absolutely.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:19:10

I probably had a really unreal expectation that Charlotte would slot in, she'd

LAURA BISBEY: 00:19:17

quickly establish a routine and would nap when she needed to nap and would drink her

LAURA BISBEY: 00:19:24

milk when she needed to drink her milk.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:19:26

And this didn't happen.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:19:28

And I remember screaming at my husband one night, you know, "This is unsustainable!"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:19:34

Um, but I genuinely think I had a very unrealistic expectation of how

LAURA BISBEY: 00:19:40

easy it was going to be for a baby to slot into our relationship.

VIKKI: 00:19:45

It's amazing.

VIKKI: 00:19:46

I mean, I still even look back now and can't believe how sometimes I

VIKKI: 00:19:50

couldn't even leave the house and I would be sat on the sofa for five

VIKKI: 00:19:53

hours breastfeeding and you're like, how ?! But it's yeah- babies are babies,

VIKKI: 00:20:01

and they don't necessarily sort of fall into routines or predictability.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:08

Yes.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:09

And, I'm a routine driven person.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:13

Uh, so that I think made it even harder, that suddenly, you know, what I wanted the

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:19

routine to look like, I couldn't control.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:22

You know, Charlotte might go down for a nap when I expected her

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:26

to, and then 15 minutes later she was awake and I was thinking,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:31

"No, you can't possibly be awake!

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:33

I haven't done my to-do list.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:34

I've got washing up to-do, I've got the washing machine to put on!"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:38

And I think that all sort of fed into that sort of mental load.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:43

You know, I still wanted to be 'me' almost, and, you know, do all the things

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:49

I would normally do, but hadn't realised that it would be so difficult to, you

LAURA BISBEY: 00:20:54

know, to accommodate the two at the time.

VIKKI: 00:20:57

I think so many people can relate to that, you know?

VIKKI: 00:20:59

And it sounds like you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself and

VIKKI: 00:21:02

again, that expectation on yourself for being the perfect 'everything'.

VIKKI: 00:21:09

Would you say that's fair?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:11

Yes!

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:12

Um, definitely a perfectionist.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:14

And I think that was absolutely, you know, something that didn't help how I was

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:20

feeling, you know, if some friends, uh, mum friends were coming over, you know,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:25

with their babies during maternity leave, I would make sure that house was spotless.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:31

I didn't need to - they were experiencing exactly the same with

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:35

their children as I was at the time.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:37

And they would've been understanding.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:41

But again, I think there was that mask, that impression that I wanted

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:46

to give off that "I have got this!

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:50

I'm looking after a baby.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:51

My house is spotless.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:53

I have absolutely got this!"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:55

And I think that was something that when I did- and it took me a really

LAURA BISBEY: 00:21:58

long time- but when I did finally say to people, you know, "This is what I've been

LAURA BISBEY: 00:22:05

suffering with", they were gobsmacked.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:22:07

They had no idea.

VIKKI: 00:22:09

Because you'd been really good at keeping up appearances and my God, that's

VIKKI: 00:22:14

a lot of pressure to put on yourself.

VIKKI: 00:22:17

And maybe we should just all agree to have this amnesty that if you are

VIKKI: 00:22:22

listening to this now with a young baby or a toddler and you sort of have that,

VIKKI: 00:22:28

I'm sure your friends feel the same.

VIKKI: 00:22:30

So just have an amnesty where you leave the housework for a moment again,

VIKKI: 00:22:34

that pressure, that sort of, as soon as baby sleeps, you are meant to be either

VIKKI: 00:22:39

resting- "sleep when the baby sleeps"- or you are frantically trying to tidy

VIKKI: 00:22:44

things up or make the tea or grab a moment in the shower or do the washing.

VIKKI: 00:22:51

There's so many things to do!

VIKKI: 00:22:52

And I used to wish that Stanley had a little countdown timer so I could see,

VIKKI: 00:22:57

you know, "Do I have a 40 minute window?

VIKKI: 00:22:59

Is it a 10 minute window?"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:23:01

Yeah!

VIKKI: 00:23:02

Because you'd be like, you know, "How much time do I have?"

VIKKI: 00:23:05

And I certainly, myself, I would have this list of " Oh no, I'm

VIKKI: 00:23:11

going to put the washing on.

VIKKI: 00:23:12

No I'm not, I'm gonna do this."

VIKKI: 00:23:13

And, and so I would spend 10 minutes deciding what to do because I'd be

VIKKI: 00:23:19

like flipping between one thing and another and, and desperately trying

VIKKI: 00:23:22

to do everything rather than "I'm just gonna try and do one thing" or "I'm just

VIKKI: 00:23:26

gonna rest", which probably would've been the best thing to do in the time.

VIKKI: 00:23:32

But, um, are you happy to talk about the birth?

VIKKI: 00:23:36

How was the birth for you?

VIKKI: 00:23:38

Is that something that went to plan?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:23:41

Um, I didn't have a plan, which is unusual for me given I like

LAURA BISBEY: 00:23:46

to be in control, but I didn't have a plan and, and that was some sound advice

LAURA BISBEY: 00:23:49

given to me by a friend- "You can't plan for their arrival, you'll only be

LAURA BISBEY: 00:23:54

disappointed when it doesn't go to plan."

LAURA BISBEY: 00:23:58

The only thing I knew was that I didn't want pethadine, I had heard

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:02

some horror stories about that.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:03

So I made that very clear to the midwives.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:07

I was really lucky, I had a really, quick labor.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:11

I didn't actually feel very well, but had no pain or anything.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:16

And we went down to the hospital just to get checked out.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:19

And I sat on a chair for a while and they said, you know, "We'll get to

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:22

you when we get to you" kind of thing.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:24

Uh, and then I started pacing the corridor, and they said, "Oh,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:28

we'll take you straight through."

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:29

So they must have spotted something in me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:32

And when I went through, I was five centimeters dilated, which

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:35

I wasn't expecting, um, as I said, cause I hadn't sort of experienced

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:40

any or felt any contractions.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:41

Obviously things were happening.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:44

And, Charlotte arrived four hours later!

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:47

She was delivered by ventouse just because she was in a bit of distress.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:51

But everything was, appeared fine.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:55

I felt very lucky in many respects, especially when, you know, obviously

LAURA BISBEY: 00:24:59

you speak to friends about their own labour and birth stories.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:25:04

So yeah, I felt very, very lucky.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:25:07

What I didn't feel was when they gave Charlotte to me, I certainly

LAURA BISBEY: 00:25:16

didn't have that rush of love.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:25:19

I wouldn't say I felt anything, probably relief.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:25:23

Um, that I'd done it, but I didn't, I certainly didn't

LAURA BISBEY: 00:25:29

feel anything for Charlotte.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:25:30

And I sort of expected that, you know, I was aware of the statistics around,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:25:36

you know, mothers who just sort of don't experience that rush of love, but

LAURA BISBEY: 00:25:41

I thought "It'll come in time, won't be long- a couple of days, you know,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:25:45

once we're settled back at home, I'm sure, I'm sure I'll experience that."

LAURA BISBEY: 00:25:51

Unfortunately, it took me probably well over a year to really feel that love.

VIKKI: 00:26:02

And again, that is not something that's your fault in any way.

VIKKI: 00:26:06

And it is a common thing.

VIKKI: 00:26:08

And whilst I didn't have that experience.

VIKKI: 00:26:13

Well I certainly didn't have the 'rush of love' and so many people I've

VIKKI: 00:26:17

spoken to throughout this podcast and just with friends, it actually isn't

VIKKI: 00:26:22

as common as we're led to believe.

VIKKI: 00:26:25

But whenever we see births happening in like dramas, there's always that

VIKKI: 00:26:30

moment of that, you know, 'euphoria'.

VIKKI: 00:26:32

And I think if we are led to believe that that is something that should happen, then

VIKKI: 00:26:39

we feel terrible if it doesn't happen.

VIKKI: 00:26:42

But actually a lot of people just say felt nothing or just felt numb.

VIKKI: 00:26:47

And again, that's okay.

VIKKI: 00:26:50

That's okay.

VIKKI: 00:26:51

And I'm so grateful to you for being honest about that.

VIKKI: 00:26:55

But that must have been incredibly hard for you, because you had this, this

VIKKI: 00:27:01

expectation of what motherhood would be like and the reality- from what you've

VIKKI: 00:27:07

been saying- felt very different to, to what you were hoping it was going to be.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:13

Yes, I don't really know what I was expecting.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:16

Um, I certainly was expecting, as I said earlier, that the baby would slot in

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:24

to our life and that that didn't happen.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:28

And obviously, you know, as you said, they don't come with a manual.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:31

You have absolutely no control over that routine, and that routine

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:34

obviously changes as that child grows.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:37

And those, those phases change.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:39

You know, just as you get to grips with one routine in one phase, the next phase

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:44

comes along and everything changes again.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:46

And, and I felt that very difficult to deal with, you know, just as I felt

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:52

like I was finding my feet with one thing, everything changed for me again.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:27:57

I remained under the care of the mental health nurse, for

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:02

quite some time after the birth.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:04

And again, she, you know, she would come and visit me sort of regularly.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:08

I was desperate to...

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:11

I suppose prove to myself and prove to my husband- because at this point still, he

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:18

was really the only person that knew- I was desperate to prove that I was okay.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:24

I was better.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:25

And I agreed with the mental health nurse probably when Charlotte was

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:29

about four or five months old, that I would be discharged from the service.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:36

I had also been working with a C.B.T.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:38

(Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) therapist- that again, the perinatal

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:41

mental health team arranged -just to deal with some, um, or strategies to

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:47

deal with the sort of anxiety and O.C.D.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:50

(Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) that had presented during pregnancy and

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:53

had continued following the birth.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:55

So I stayed with that C.B.T.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:57

therapist.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:28:58

I felt that that was helpful and, you know, was really working for me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:02

And then about six months, uh, when you start weaning, the

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:06

wheels started to come off.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:08

And it suddenly became more than I'd ever experienced, even up until that point.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:17

It felt like another level.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:19

And the O.C.D.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:22

was particularly bad.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:26

I was obviously weaning with, I think looking back was

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:30

probably a trigger for this.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:32

I was absolutely terrified of Charlotte choking.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:37

When we were weaning, baby led weaning for me was just, I couldn't possibly have

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:43

done that, especially if I was on my own.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:45

I remember having a conversation with my husband saying, "Well, if

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:49

I'm with her, I'll just give her her milk and then I'll wait for you.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:53

And, you know, we spoke about how we, we couldn't, we couldn't

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:57

do that until she was 18!

LAURA BISBEY: 00:29:59

Um, you know, she, she needed to, to learn to eat and, and, um,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:04

obviously needed that food to grow.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:07

So that, that was tricky.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:09

I had particular O.C.D.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:12

around contamination- I was putting alcoholic hand gel

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:17

on my six month old's hands.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:20

But I was so terrified of her getting ill, that I felt that

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:27

that was a good thing to do.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:30

So this continued, um, and I remember going on holiday and again, I,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:37

you know, I was worried about the contamination points, so I took

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:41

pouches of food and all her milk for a week's holiday on the airplane.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:47

That suitcases were absolutely full.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:49

But in my mind, you know, this was the only way I could control the situation.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:55

And this is, I think, you know, what it kept coming back to, you know,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:30:59

how could, how could I be in control?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:31:03

And by this stage, I'd also started to experience real sad moments.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:31:14

And this was something that I hadn't experienced during the pregnancy

LAURA BISBEY: 00:31:19

and in that sort of immediate, um, aftermath following the birth.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:31:24

But these waves of sadness, you know, would wash over me and would make me

LAURA BISBEY: 00:31:32

feel like I just couldn't continue.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:31:36

I started to get, sort of intrusive thoughts around suicide.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:31:42

Um, and, you know, how, how I might do it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:31:47

I remember driving down the road one day and just wanting

LAURA BISBEY: 00:31:55

to, you know, to veer the car.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:32:00

you know, I said to my dad I just didn't want to live anymore.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:32:06

And now that I am a mum, I, I cannot imagine, you know, Charlotte saying

LAURA BISBEY: 00:32:16

that to me, that must have been, you know, awful for any parent to hear.

VIKKI: 00:32:28

Was that the first time that you really cried for help within

VIKKI: 00:32:33

your, your family and friends?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:32:36

Yes.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:32:37

Yeah, definitely.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:32:38

Um, as I said, up until that point, I probably made references to it, uh, to

LAURA BISBEY: 00:32:46

mum friends that, you know, I developed friendships with, um, but never really had

LAURA BISBEY: 00:32:53

spoken about, you know, the 'real' truth.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:32:56

Only really Andy knew what that was.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:00

Um, so I, I called the doctor.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:04

You know I recognised that this couldn't continue.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:09

Uh, so I called the doctor, but unfortunately because Charlotte was

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:12

over six months, I was no longer able to be referred back into

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:19

the perinatal mental health team.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:21

So I was going to have to go into the adult mental health services and

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:28

obviously then -and continue to be now -those waiting lists are huge.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:34

I was really lucky, I have Bupa through my employer and I contacted

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:38

them to see if mental health services were part of the cover.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:41

And they were.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:42

And I started seeing a psychologist through Bupa and I saw that psychologist

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:50

for for probably about a year.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:33:54

Um, and some of the sessions I would go on my own and they would be very

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:01

difficult and exploring difficult topics of conversation, you know, deep feelings.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:08

Other sessions I would take Charlotte, um, because still at this point

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:12

I didn't really feel any love for her, I'd always had a sense of

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:18

responsibility to care for her.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:21

And I started to, uh, you know, develop a relationship with Charlotte through play,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:28

in the presence of the psychologist.

VIKKI: 00:34:32

And did you find that helpful in terms of helping

VIKKI: 00:34:35

develop those feelings for her?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:38

Absolutely.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:40

I think it was just, I needed somebody to point things out to me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:44

I think, you know, I couldn't see the wood for the trees.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:49

I remember one session where Charlotte was playing with some

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:53

toys provided by the psychologist.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:34:56

And she'd come back to me and I think I'd given her a snack or

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:01

something and she'd crawled away again and to look at another toy.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:07

And she came back and the psychologist said to me, "Why do

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:11

you think she's come back to you?"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:13

And I was like, "I don't know, I don't know what she wants!

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:17

I've just given her her snack" or whatever it was.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:21

And she said, "But you're her security blanket.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:23

That's not her toy.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:25

She's coming to you to check- "Is this okay mummy, for me to play

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:31

with this nice toy over here?"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:33

it was like a revelation.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:35

Um, and we did a lot of work around the 'circle of security', which just

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:43

really helped me to understand, you know, why a child behaved like a

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:51

child and why it would keep coming back to its parent or carer as that

LAURA BISBEY: 00:35:57

sort of security blanket for them.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:36:00

And that was a huge turning point for me, that, you know, I

LAURA BISBEY: 00:36:04

recognised what - or started to recognise - what she needed from me,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:36:09

and importantly why she needed it.

VIKKI: 00:36:12

And also how you were providing that for her already.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:36:17

Yeah, without realising.

VIKKI: 00:36:19

Yeah, and what I'll do is I'll put a link to information about

VIKKI: 00:36:24

the circle of security in the show notes, if anybody's interested.

VIKKI: 00:36:29

Um, wow.

VIKKI: 00:36:30

So you had so much going on and, and with the Obsessive compulsive Disorder,

VIKKI: 00:36:35

that must have been very distressing.

VIKKI: 00:36:38

Was that something that you had previously or was this completely new to you?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:36:43

I would say, and if you ask my friends, they'd

LAURA BISBEY: 00:36:46

probably say I've always been sort of very neat and tidy and clean.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:36:52

So maybe that's not unusual for me, but it was the level at which , I was cleaning.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:37:00

You know, we would go to a restaurant and I'd be anti-bac-ing

LAURA BISBEY: 00:37:07

everything inside, not just hands.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:37:10

Um, you know, if I didn't, well, I was just about to say if I

LAURA BISBEY: 00:37:14

didn't take Charlotte's Cutlery, but I always took her cutlery.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:37:18

Again, it was that control.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:37:19

Okay, how can I possibly control any potential for contamination?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:37:24

I'll take her cutlery, I'll take her food, everything I'd got, and even if it came

LAURA BISBEY: 00:37:29

outta my bag, it was still anti-bac'd.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:37:31

Uh, so I think it was just on a level that I didn't even think

LAURA BISBEY: 00:37:37

was possible, to be honest.

VIKKI: 00:37:39

I think so many people can probably relate to that sort of up to a point.

VIKKI: 00:37:44

You know, they're, they're born and they're so pure and you want to sort

VIKKI: 00:37:48

of protect them as much as you can.

VIKKI: 00:37:50

And then when you go to a few baby groups and all the kids are

VIKKI: 00:37:54

literally just putting everything in their mouth because that's how

VIKKI: 00:37:58

they explore, that's how they learn.

VIKKI: 00:38:01

But yeah, when, when suddenly all , you go to baby group and there's all these

VIKKI: 00:38:05

kids just like shoving everything into their mouths and you, you sort

VIKKI: 00:38:09

of soon go beyond that and become much more accepting about that.

VIKKI: 00:38:14

But it sounds like for you it was a very extreme form of, of that, and it

VIKKI: 00:38:20

must have been very frightening for you.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:38:22

It was, and I think I, I felt like I was letting Charlotte down

LAURA BISBEY: 00:38:26

in some ways because sort of those, those baby groups that you mentioned, I

LAURA BISBEY: 00:38:30

would choose ones where that was limited.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:38:35

I remember, you know, a group of my mum friends uh, joined, it was kind of an

LAURA BISBEY: 00:38:40

art group for children or for babies.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:38:43

And I remember looking, they sent me the link.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:38:45

I looked at the webpage and there were pictures of children sat in

LAURA BISBEY: 00:38:49

bowls of spaghetti and goodness knows what, and I thought, "I can't

LAURA BISBEY: 00:38:54

take her, I just can't do it".

LAURA BISBEY: 00:38:56

So we didn't go and, you know, have I let her down?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:39:00

No.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:39:01

But it was, it was the right thing for, for me to do at the time.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:39:07

Um, but yeah, that, that sort of guilt sort of in, you know, in the

LAURA BISBEY: 00:39:12

present was, was a lot, you know.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:39:15

"Oh gosh- she's missing out on socialising, she's missing out

LAURA BISBEY: 00:39:19

on exploring all because that.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:39:24

Particular environment looks, you know, too risky for me to, to take her to.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:39:31

Um, so that was the overriding feeling I think at the time I was letting her down.

VIKKI: 00:39:37

And again, there's so much pressure put on parents these days,

VIKKI: 00:39:42

especially with things like Instagram and the internet where there's so many

VIKKI: 00:39:45

things like "You need to socialise them.

VIKKI: 00:39:48

You need to take them to messy play.

VIKKI: 00:39:49

You need to be doing this, they need to be outside."

VIKKI: 00:39:52

And yes, all of those things, you know, are important to an extent,

VIKKI: 00:39:56

but there's a lot of pressure put on us to do all these things.

VIKKI: 00:40:00

You know, I found weaning extremely triggering myself.

VIKKI: 00:40:03

And I remember reading- I think it was Annabel Karmel or something- where

VIKKI: 00:40:08

it's like "By the third week, give them papaya and pineapple and something else."

VIKKI: 00:40:14

And it's like, and I remember like dutifully going because it said in the

VIKKI: 00:40:18

book, that's how suggestible I was, you know, trying to track down a papaya!

VIKKI: 00:40:23

So Stan papaya on that day, I don't think he's ever had papaya since!

VIKKI: 00:40:26

And I really don't think that if I hadn't given him a papaya on that day,

VIKKI: 00:40:31

that he would be scarred for life.

VIKKI: 00:40:33

But it's hard when you are sort of in that level of thinking and all those

VIKKI: 00:40:38

intrusive thoughts are coming through.

VIKKI: 00:40:40

What do you think you were most frightened of?

VIKKI: 00:40:43

You, you said you were scared of her becoming sick.

VIKKI: 00:40:46

Is that right?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:40:48

Yeah.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:40:48

Definitely fearful of her becoming unwell.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:40:52

Um, a fear had developed, probably actually was there before pregnancy

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:00

and not really, not really noticed.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:03

So I'm not sure this was actually sort of, um, Something that was triggered

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:09

by the pregnancy, but I think it was exacerbated by the pregnancy.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:12

I remember thinking when we decided to start a family, "Gosh, I hope

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:17

I don't have morning sickness.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:19

Because I don't, I'm not very good with vomit, and thinking,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:22

"Oh, am I doing the right thing?"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:23

I was really lucky because I, I didn't have any sickness at all, so I was,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:27

I was very lucky in that regard.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:29

But that was definitely something, you know, that contamination

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:32

point was around sickness.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:35

Um, there was also, I suppose the more extreme, you know, " What

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:39

if she's seriously unwell?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:41

What if she chokes, you know, whilst I'm weaning her?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:45

That was very present.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:46

And those kind of intrusive thoughts, you know, were there a lot.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:50

And I remember, it must have been the summer when we were

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:55

allowed to meet again after Covid.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:41:57

And I remember going to a friend's house and she gave the girls some grapes.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:02

So Charlotte would've been two and a half at this stage.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:05

And up until that point, I had meticulously cut up the grapes,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:11

because I was, you know, still very concerned around that, that choking.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:16

And I remember my friend putting this bowl of grapes in front of her and

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:19

I was thinking, "Oh my goodness."

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:22

And I sat and watched and she ate the grapes and she was fine.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:28

She was obviously much bigger by, you know, by this point.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:32

And I needed that.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:33

I needed somebody else, you know, in the room to just give her the grapes.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:37

She was probably eating grapes at nursery for all I know!

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:40

But I needed somebody else to, you know, to be in the room

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:42

for me to be like, "Oh, okay.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:45

You know, it's fine.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:47

she's much bigger now.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:48

She can eat a whole grape and I know she'll chew it properly."

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:51

Um, but , it made me laugh and I, at the time I didn't say anything to my friend,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:55

but I've since said to her, you know, "You know that time after Covid when

LAURA BISBEY: 00:42:58

we came over and you gave them grapes?"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:43:01

and, uh, we, you know, we laugh about it now.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:43:03

And, and that's, you know, it's lovely that I, I'm able to do that and, you know,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:43:08

particularly with, um, with that friend who's sort of been on the journey with me.

VIKKI: 00:43:14

The grapes thing, God, I, I really remember that.

VIKKI: 00:43:18

My goodness, Stanley's 10 now.

VIKKI: 00:43:20

And I still sometimes say, make sure you bite it in half so you're not alone.

VIKKI: 00:43:25

And I think so many people will sort of resonate with that.

VIKKI: 00:43:28

How was Andy your husband when this was going on?

VIKKI: 00:43:32

Because was he understanding what you were going through, was

VIKKI: 00:43:37

he sort of fighting the O.C.D.

VIKKI: 00:43:42

instincts?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:43:44

Um, I think he was frustrated.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:43:47

You know, when we would go out for a meal and there I was before anyone

LAURA BISBEY: 00:43:52

even touched anything, you know, cleaning things, wiping things down.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:43:56

I think he did find it frustrating.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:43:58

You know, it was a real test of our relationship.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:44:03

But at the same time, I, I think, he understood, it hadn't, you know,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:44:07

that level of 'decontamination' hadn't been present, you know, beforehand.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:44:13

So I think he recognised that this wouldn't be at this level forever.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:44:21

You know, some things remain now and they probably will always

LAURA BISBEY: 00:44:24

you know, sort of be with me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:44:26

And obviously everyone's always using their hand gel these days!

LAURA BISBEY: 00:44:29

But, um, yeah, I think some things will always be with me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:44:32

But at the time, I think for Andy, he recognised that things

LAURA BISBEY: 00:44:38

would sort of step back a bit.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:44:41

It was just everything was heightened.

VIKKI: 00:44:45

And with the fear of vomit.

VIKKI: 00:44:48

I mean, babies are sick and babies are sick a lot.

VIKKI: 00:44:53

So how did you cope with that when Charlotte was ill?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:44:57

Um, when she was, um, well actually it was the day Andy

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:02

went back to work, which was typical!

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:06

So he'd had three weeks off following Charlotte's arrival.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:10

And unbeknown to me, she'd got reflux and I was at home on my first day, I decided

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:18

that we absolutely couldn't possibly leave the house on this first day.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:21

It was safer for us to be inside, and she projectile vomited her milk everywhere.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:31

And again, I remember calling Andy and screaming down the phone at

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:34

him and saying, "I can't do this.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:37

You know, we're gonna have to change roles.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:39

You are going to have to take paternity leave, and I'm going back to work.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:42

I can't deal with this."

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:43

And again, you know, at the time, felt so guilty about that, you know.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:48

The majority of mothers take their maternity leave and fathers, you

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:55

know, continue with their professions.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:45:58

I felt guilty for wanting that all because she'd vomited over everything,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:05

after she'd had her milk, and again, you know, that continued and we

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:09

sorted her reflux out and she was tongue tie and all this business.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:12

But that fear of vomit remains.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:15

Um, again, probably something that, you know, will, stay with me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:21

We have a, a routine if you like, that Andy deals with Charlotte when she's

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:30

poorly or when she has been poorly.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:32

And I can deal with the cleanup operation because I feel that I'm more

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:40

able to, again, control that situation.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:43

Obviously it's very hard to control a four year old, uh, who's got

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:47

a sickness bug, for instance.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:48

So yeah, there's definitely a, a routine and it hasn't been an agreed routine.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:46:54

It's just developed.

VIKKI: 00:46:56

It's just naturally happened.

VIKKI: 00:46:58

And, don't get me wrong, stomach bugs and illnesses and things like that

VIKKI: 00:47:02

are, they're just grim, aren't they?

VIKKI: 00:47:05

You know, I don't know anybody that's excited when their kid starts

VIKKI: 00:47:09

vomiting, it's, you know, it's awful.

VIKKI: 00:47:12

And I know when Stan's sick still to this day, or just ill, I find it

VIKKI: 00:47:18

triggering because again, and it goes back to that control thing of, you

VIKKI: 00:47:22

know, I'm out of my comfort zone.

VIKKI: 00:47:25

"What if it's not something that I can help with?"

VIKKI: 00:47:28

Or yeah, I, I get discombobulated or dysregulated, I think the term is.

VIKKI: 00:47:33

So in terms of the O.C.D., what, what helped?

VIKKI: 00:47:37

Did you have specialist help when that came along as a factor?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:47:41

So I continued the C.B.T.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:47:44

work, which definitely helped.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:47:47

There were other things going on in, you know, with the O.C.D., the

LAURA BISBEY: 00:47:50

contamination points, um, was, you know, the, I suppose the one that was ever

LAURA BISBEY: 00:47:55

present, but there were other things.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:47:57

There was lots of checking going on- checking she was breathing

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:00

at night when she was asleep.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:02

Um, those kind of things.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:04

And I, you know, learned some really helpful strategies to deal

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:09

with that, um, on the checking.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:11

There was one I remember where number three is my sort of 'magic' number, so

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:16

everything was, was done in threes.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:19

And I remember the C.B.T.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:21

therapist saying to me, "Okay, tomorrow, can you just try two

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:28

and let me know how it feels?"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:30

And I remember it feeling like a really horrible day that I

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:35

couldn't do what I normally did.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:37

And again, that kind of feeling slightly out of control, somebody

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:41

else was managing this situation.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:44

But we got through 24 hours of just checking twice on whatever I might

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:50

be checking at that time, whether it was on Charlotte, whether it was on

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:53

the door being locked or whatever.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:48:56

And those kind of things, those strategies actually stay with me to this day.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:00

I can always tell if I'm in a period of heightened stress because that

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:06

checking routine is perhaps a bit more present than it would ordinarily be.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:11

And those strategies that I've learned, um, you know, through,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:14

through my experience, uh, are still there and I can still sort of draw

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:18

upon them, in those circumstances.

VIKKI: 00:49:21

So it's something that you're able to manage, even if

VIKKI: 00:49:23

it's not gone away completely?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:25

Absolutely.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:26

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:49:27

And for anybody listening that is sort of in the throes of

VIKKI: 00:49:31

O.C.D., what would you recommend?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:36

I think, without a doubt, having some therapy around, obviously

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:41

cognitive behavior, that I don't think anything else would've helped.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:48

I didn't feel like a talking therapy in terms of those sort of

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:51

anxieties and depressive states would work with that sort of O.C.D.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:56

that I was experiencing.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:49:57

And perhaps it goes back to, you know, 'Laura the professional', and actually

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:03

I need a solution to deal with this.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:05

And that was one area where I felt like there were some solutions,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:10

at least that could be tried.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:12

They might not work at first, but they could be tried.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:15

Whereas with the anxiety and the depression, you know, that really

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:20

didn't feel like there was a solution.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:22

Not, not, um, not a strategy to deal with it.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:26

It felt like that was something that I was going to, you know, to

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:30

have to talk through, work through.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:32

Whereas with the C.B.T.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:34

I was doing it regularly.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:35

I was seeing them once a week, and, you know, able to reflect week on week-

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:41

"Well, that, you know, that didn't work.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:42

I tried that last week and that was useless.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:45

So let's forget that and let's try something else this time.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:49

And it felt like I was working towards a goal, whereas the goal in relation

LAURA BISBEY: 00:50:56

to the anxiety and the depression seemed so far, in the future, it

LAURA BISBEY: 00:51:01

was, you know, it was out of touch.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:51:03

Um, whereas I think , with the O.C.D., I felt that I could, I could make small

LAURA BISBEY: 00:51:08

steps, in a shorter period of time to, to get that sort of under control.

VIKKI: 00:51:14

And I think it's very important to make this point to anybody who's

VIKKI: 00:51:17

going through it for the first time, that recovery isn't linear.

VIKKI: 00:51:22

It's not like a single curve where it's going up, up, up, up, up, up.

VIKKI: 00:51:27

You know, it is very much "one step forward, two steps back"

VIKKI: 00:51:31

sometimes, and that, that's okay.

VIKKI: 00:51:33

You know, that is all part of the recovery process.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:51:37

Absolutely.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:51:37

And I think, you know, in terms of looking back from when I first started feeling,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:51:45

sort of anxious during pregnancy, so week 15, if I look at my recovery, you

LAURA BISBEY: 00:51:51

know, there were peaks and troughs.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:51:52

One moment I thought, "I've got it".

LAURA BISBEY: 00:51:55

And then other moments, you know, I was right at the bottom of

LAURA BISBEY: 00:51:58

that trough and things couldn't have looked worse, to be honest.

VIKKI: 00:52:02

So when did you start feeling that things were getting better for you?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:52:09

When I went back to work- work quite literally saved me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:52:14

I Probably didn't realise how much I missed having that role.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:52:24

So to be able to go back to work and to talk- obviously not just to adults,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:52:31

because I was talking to, you know, adult mum friends throughout my maternity leave.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:52:35

But just to be able to talk, you know, on a professional level, to be the Laura

LAURA BISBEY: 00:52:40

who I u used to be that I remembered.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:52:44

It was a revelation really.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:52:46

And I think the combination of work, the continued sessions with the

LAURA BISBEY: 00:52:54

psychologist, after I went back to work, were really what helped, you know, to

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:01

almost, I, I don't wanna say kickstart my recovery, but it really felt like

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:05

it, it felt like a huge turning point.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:09

Um, and yes, you know, it was tricky.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:11

I, as I said earlier, learning to combine, you know, "Laura the

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:15

professional" with "Laura the mum".

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:17

But there were times when I'd still avoid situations.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:22

Bedtimes were a really difficult time for me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:25

I never enjoyed doing bedtimes.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:28

And, you know, Andy would get home from work and I'd pass Charlotte

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:32

over and be like, "I can't deal, I can't deal with her anymore."

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:36

And I remember one evening, uh, sat in the office, about six

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:41

months, uh, since I started.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:44

And, I just had this urge.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:47

I can't describe it in any other way.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:48

I had an urge to get home and to do bedtime.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:52

This was not normal.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:53

This felt exciting.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:55

So off I went.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:53:57

I went home and I put Charlotte to bed and I was knelt, on the floor

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:01

next to her as she was falling asleep, and I was singing nursery rhymes.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:05

And it just hit me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:06

I realised that, you know, I, I realised I'd found what I was looking for.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:15

So when I said I didn't feel that rush of love when she was born, and then,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:20

obviously a very long intervening period, um, I did eventually find it.

VIKKI: 00:54:28

And how is your relationship now?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:32

My relationship with Charlotte is, it is great

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:35

and I think we've been on a, you know, a journey together.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:38

Has it affected our relationship?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:40

Absolutely not.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:42

Have I let her down?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:43

No.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:44

Obviously, you know, as I said at the time, it's very hard not to

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:48

think that you are letting them down.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:50

Um, but uh, no, it's perfect.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:54:54

And now I, you know, I love picking her up from school and bringing her home and

LAURA BISBEY: 00:55:00

spending, you know, spending the afternoon with her a couple of days a week.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:55:04

Um, so it's, yeah, it's great.

VIKKI: 00:55:07

That's wonderful.

VIKKI: 00:55:08

And it's so, so heartening for anybody to hear that's going

VIKKI: 00:55:12

through it at the moment.

VIKKI: 00:55:13

And I, I think it is so important to let mums or dads who are going through bonding

VIKKI: 00:55:20

difficulties with their children to know that it isn't gonna be like this forever.

VIKKI: 00:55:25

And if you need further evidence of that, if you are a new listener, if

VIKKI: 00:55:32

you listen to Episode 1 of Season 1 with Liz Wise, not only do we speak

VIKKI: 00:55:37

to Liz, who's now a full-time P.N.D.

VIKKI: 00:55:40

Counsellor, but she had very severe bonding issues with her daughter Emma.

VIKKI: 00:55:46

And Emma actually comes on at the end to talk about her mum and to talk

VIKKI: 00:55:51

about the close relationship they have.

VIKKI: 00:55:54

She is well aware of the fact that Liz did have bonding difficulties with

VIKKI: 00:55:59

her when she was a baby, but it hasn't affected their relationship, and she

VIKKI: 00:56:04

actually feels that Liz was a better mum because of her postnatal depression,

VIKKI: 00:56:12

because she made it very open to talk about feelings as she was growing up.

VIKKI: 00:56:19

And, you know, the fact that you can now say it hasn't, because I, I think the

VIKKI: 00:56:26

thing that I always remember was health visitors talking about "Don't do this

VIKKI: 00:56:29

because it'll scar your baby for life.

VIKKI: 00:56:31

Don't cry in front of them because you'll 'ruin' them" and there's so much guilt

VIKKI: 00:56:38

put on you as a parent, but actually you were giving Charlotte everything

VIKKI: 00:56:44

she needed and now, you know, it's happened naturally and it's wonderful

VIKKI: 00:56:49

that you are enjoying that relationship.

VIKKI: 00:56:53

Before we go, I'd love to talk a little bit more about the work.

VIKKI: 00:56:58

Did you tell work that you'd had such a difficult time when you first went back?

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:05

I had a really supportive boss, uh, who had known about the

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:10

issues during pregnancy, so I felt very comfortable telling him that,

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:15

uh, this was what was continuing.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:18

And they were very good in, you know, in terms of allowing me to take time off for

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:23

my sessions with psychologists and C.B.T.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:26

therapists, et cetera.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:28

I didn't tell colleagues, um, just didn't feel comfortable.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:37

I remember I lost a lot of weight towards the sort of

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:41

back end of my maternity leave.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:43

Um, uh, again, those kind of depressive states, I really lost

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:47

my appetite and had insomnia.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:49

And I remember going back to work and people commenting, you

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:53

know, "Oh, you look amazing.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:55

You've lost so much weight!"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:57:56

And I would make a little joke around how, you know, "This is what happens when

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:02

you're crawling around after a toddler!"

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:04

Little did they know that actually I just wasn't eating.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:09

So I didn't tell them.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:11

And then last year on World Mental Health Day, they had asked if anyone wanted to

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:17

share mental health stories, and I thought "I think I'm comfortable to do this now."

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:21

So I did.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:22

I wrote a little blog, which they shared on our intranet.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:26

And the response was, was absolutely amazing.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:29

I mean, there were, there were a lot of people who obviously commented

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:32

and said, "I had absolutely no idea."

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:37

And then there were others who, you know, were sharing their stories with me.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:43

And I think what I took from that was, you know, bit of a

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:47

cliche, but "it's good to talk".

LAURA BISBEY: 00:58:49

So it was, it was very powerful.

VIKKI: 00:58:53

And I think that's, you know, a tremendously brave thing to do,

VIKKI: 00:58:57

especially when you've worked so hard to, as you say, have your professional

VIKKI: 00:59:02

'persona' to then show vulnerability, but no regrets in opening up in that way.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:59:11

Yeah.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:59:13

Yeah.

LAURA BISBEY: 00:59:14

It's, um, it was, again, it felt a little bit light relief, you know, it was one

LAURA BISBEY: 00:59:23

more step, on that sort of journey of telling people about my own experience.

VIKKI: 00:59:30

And I think again, it's so comforting for women out there who

VIKKI: 00:59:36

do feel so passionately about their work and how that's connected to their

VIKKI: 00:59:41

identity, I think to hear somebody else voice their feelings that they might

VIKKI: 00:59:46

be going through of like, "Actually I need to get back to work because

VIKKI: 00:59:51

that's gonna make me feel okay again", that it's okay to feel like that.

VIKKI: 00:59:56

And I think hopefully there are moves being made in society to

VIKKI: 01:00:01

allow dads who want to be more present in their child's life.

VIKKI: 01:00:05

And there are many dads out there who, who want more than

VIKKI: 01:00:07

the two weeks paternity leave.

LAURA BISBEY: 01:00:09

Yes,

VIKKI: 01:00:10

To look at sort of parenting as a, a joint thing and allow

VIKKI: 01:00:15

people to get the balance that they need individually in their lives.

LAURA BISBEY: 01:00:19

yes.

VIKKI: 01:00:21

I mean, my goodness, it's been such a, an incredible honour to sort

VIKKI: 01:00:25

of hear your story and thank you so much for, for sharing it with me.

VIKKI: 01:00:30

Do you have anything to say to somebody who's feeling rock bottom

VIKKI: 01:00:33

right now, who doesn't think they're going to get their life back together?

VIKKI: 01:00:38

What would you say to them?

LAURA BISBEY: 01:00:39

I think there are probably two things.

LAURA BISBEY: 01:00:41

The first would be if you haven't, reach out- to a friend, a family

LAURA BISBEY: 01:00:48

member, a colleague, um, a healthcare professional, just one person.

LAURA BISBEY: 01:00:55

Because it will sort of be that first step on your journey to better mental health.

LAURA BISBEY: 01:01:01

And I think the other thing is, hold onto that hope, you know, recovery is possible.

LAURA BISBEY: 01:01:08

There are lots and lots of people out there who have recovered,

LAURA BISBEY: 01:01:12

and you know, can share their stories and you are not alone.

VIKKI: 01:01:16

Yeah, you are absolutely not alone and you will not always feel like this.

VIKKI: 01:01:22

And both Laura and I here is evidence of that.

VIKKI: 01:01:25

So thank you so much for sharing your story with me today

VIKKI: 01:01:29

and being so honest and open.

VIKKI: 01:01:32

I know a lot of my listeners will be feeling very reassured from hearing

VIKKI: 01:01:39

how you managed to pull through such difficult, emotions and experiences.

VIKKI: 01:01:43

Thank you.

LAURA BISBEY: 01:01:44

Lovely to chat to you.

VIKKI: 01:01:46

If you've enjoyed this episode of Blue MumDays, please like and subscribe.

VIKKI: 01:01:51

It really does make the difference in helping other people find it,

VIKKI: 01:01:56

and that means helping more parents.