Professor Emeritus Deborah Boehm Davis, George Mason University in the US, is one of the pioneers of the CHI conference. Deborah discusses her varied career building from her psychology background and spanning roles in human factors at Bell Labs, NASA, and General Electric. She then talks about her extensive tenure at George Mason University in both faculty and administrative/leadership roles, eventually becoming the dean of a college. Deborah shares reflections on career transitions, the importance of making a difference, effective leadership, the significance of collaborative work, and the challenges and strategies for navigating academic leadership, as well as managing academic responsibilities alongside family life. She also talks about her last industry role at Oculus Research and offers insights into the skills and approaches necessary for effective academic and industry leadership. The conversation also touches on the importance of interdisciplinary work and mentorship in academia.

Overview:

00:00 Introduction

00:29 Deborah Boehm-Davis: Career Overview

03:24 Early Career and Human Factors

04:54 Transition to Academia, Balancing Faculty and Administration Roles

09:38 Reflections on Career and Impact

17:39 Navigating Academic Leadership

25:14 Collaborations, Interdisciplinary Work and Collegiality

28:18 Interdisciplinarity and Being Strategic

32:57 Transitioning to Leadership Roles, Developing Leadership Skills

33:53 Handling Difficult Conversations

36:39 Balancing Decisions and Stakeholder Concerns

40:29 Engaging Faculty and Effective Communication

44:51 Leadership in Industry vs. Academia

46:54 Mentorship and Support Systems

50:24 Proudest Achievements and Work Skills Course

56:28 Reflections on Women in Academia

59:37 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

01:00:46 End

Related links:

Video of a 2024 talk to the Uni of Virginia HFES Student Chapter: “A Career in Human Factors: A Lifetime of Change” [40:51 mins]

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborah-boehm-davis-05b50

Website: https://psychology.gmu.edu/people/dbdavis

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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I am really delighted to bring this

conversation with Deborah Boehm-Davis.

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Deborah is now Professor Emeritus

from George Mason University.

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But she's had a really interesting career

where she worked in various industry roles

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in the very early days of human factors

work, and she was actually one of the

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pioneers at the very first CHI Conference

with CHI being the Computer Human

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Interaction Conference back in the 1980s.

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So she brings lots of experience

to reflect on from both industry

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and research and her industry roles

span Bell Labs and NASA and General

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Electric so all very interesting.

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And then she had a 33 year plus long

tenure at George Mason University

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at the psychology department.

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And she ended up alternating between

faculty roles and moving into leadership

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administration roles, eventually

becoming the dean of a college.

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And so I was really interested to talk

to Deb because the interesting career

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experiences reflect some of the themes

from previous conversations, just to

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show that flexibility that we can have.

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And I was also aware that I've never

really spoken to anyone who is involved

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in more of the administration side,

leadership side of universities, and I

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don't know about you, but it's often

easy to get quite critical about people in

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those roles and what they should be doing

and what's wrong with a whole university.

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So it was interesting, particularly I

think talking to Deb about what it was

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like being at that level and trying

to navigate all the different tensions

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that they had to, to deal with in trying

to run a university or run a college.

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So there's lots that she reflects on here.

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Lots of great insights, lots of

suggestions for those of us who

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are part of faculty and how we can

also better support our leaders.

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So I really hope you enjoy

this conversation with Deb.

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Welcome, Deb.

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I'm really happy to be able to

talk with you because you have had

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such an interesting career journey.

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And also you've held some really senior

leadership positions in universities,

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and I haven't often got the chance

to talk to people more from that

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leadership perspective as well, so.

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They will probably be the two main areas.

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Would you like to just introduce

yourself a little bit in terms of

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where you're coming from, background

and a flavor of the journey?

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Deb: Absolutely.

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So I'm Deb Boehm Davis and, I was an

undergraduate psychology major and in

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my junior year, uh, my advisor told

me about a position at Bell Labs.

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Neither of us really knew what Bell

Labs wanted was psychologists, but it

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turned out they had a human factors group

and that's how I discovered the field.

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Went on graduate school school

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Geri Fitz: The field being human.

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Oh, human factors.

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Human factors, yeah.

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Deb: Very broadly.

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Yeah.

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So I went to graduate school, had

planned on cognitive psychology.

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As, uh, a field.

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So I studied that, but as I got closer

to graduation, started remembering that

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thing that I did as an undergraduate

that was really interesting.

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Uh, that led me to my first job at

NASA doing aviation applications.

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I was at NASA a fairly short

time when my husband got offered

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a position on the East Coast.

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So, uh, and it was a dream job for him.

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So there was very little

question that we should move.

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We moved to the East coast and

I ended up at General Electric,

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which is how I got involved in HCI.

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Uh, they were doing work on

how programmers understand

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software, and that was.

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In the very beginnings, that was 1980.

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So before even the first CHI conference.

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Yeah.

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Uh, GE did support that first

CHI conference, so I got

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involved in that very early on.

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I was there several years.

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GE made some business decisions

that, uh, didn't bode well

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for continuing to work there.

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So I moved to George Mason University

and was there for over 30 years.

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Geri Fitz: As a psychologist?

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Deb: Yes, in a psychology department.

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Yeah, they did have a

human factors program.

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Um, interestingly, the university

had positioned itself to respond to

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the needs of the local community,

and therefore it had programs that

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many psych departments don't have.

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It had a human factors program, it

had industrial organizational program.

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So it really was, uh, some of

the more practical aspects,

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if you will, of psychology.

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Yeah.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Deb: And then to finish off.

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So I stayed there for

a very, very long time.

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I went back and forth between being a

faculty member and being an administrator.

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We can talk more about that if

you'd like, um, at some point.

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And then, um, towards the end of.

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What turned out to be the end of my

career, um, I ended up going to meta.

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At the time it was Oculus Research, a

research lab doing research on virtual

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reality, and that was sparked by a

confluence of events, a difficult meeting

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with the president and the provost,

followed by seeing my grandson, who was

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then 15 months old and realizing how much

we missed being so far away from them.

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And then my son-in-law recruiting me to

Oculus Research where he was working.

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And then I was there

for almost five years.

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Yeah.

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And then decided it was time to, to

step away and do some other fun things.

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Yeah.

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Geri Fitz: And you were 30

years at George Mason in the

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Deb: 33, I think.

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33.

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Geri Fitz: Wow.

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Wow.

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A couple of things just

to pick up on there.

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You said at the beginning like you

started off working in NASA and

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that was more in, was it cockpit or

aerospace type work and you had been

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at Bell Labs, which is more phones.

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Yes.

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And then you talked about working

with software developers.

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Was there a red thread through those?

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Deb: So for me, the thread was

always what information do people

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need to perform effectively?

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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So, um, when I went to NASA.

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The place in NASA that I was working was

focused on commercial aviation, and it

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was just at the time that, um, automated

systems were coming into the cockpit.

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So instead of a flight engineer

having a huge panel of analog

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displays, there was now information

being displayed on the computer.

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And it turned out that it wasn't always

sufficient to bring the pilot back

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into the loop to understand what was

happening because they hadn't had the

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preview of things starting to go off.

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So my background in cognition

was really what information do

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people need to make decisions?

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And that was kind of the foundation.

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And the same thing was true in the

software psychology work that we did.

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It turns out that a huge proportion

of funds that go into creating

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software is not creating new software.

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It's modifying existing software.

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Documentation tends to be very poor.

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And so we were asking

two kinds of questions.

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One, were there better ways to document

the code so that a new person could

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understand what had gone before?

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And the second thing we looked at do

different structures like functional

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decomposition versus object oriented.

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Do they lend themselves

to easier modification?

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Mm-hmm.

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So that thread through that was always,

what information do people need?

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Geri Fitz: Were you aware of

that as a thread at the time?

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Because they're quite, it's shifting

to quite different domains, or is it

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only when you're looking back that

you go, ah, I was always interested

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in information and decision making.

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Deb: I think, if I'm brutally honest,

it was when I came up for tenure, right.

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And I needed to explain the programmatic

nature of the work that I had done.

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And it took me a little while

to think about it because I

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was intrigued by the problems.

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Mm.

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Deb: But as I looked at it,

I was always focused on the

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information needs of the user.

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Mm-hmm.

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So, uh.

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I think I was aware of it relatively

early in my career, but certainly it

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wasn't something that I set out to

say, this is what I'm gonna focus on.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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That's interesting.

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And it also points then to

the value you get from those.

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Times when we can think, oh no, I

have to write a, I have to write

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a case for promotion, or I have to

write a tenure case or whatever.

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And you can get a bit humpy about it.

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Yeah.

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But they're actually really useful points

of reflection, aren't they, to do that

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heads, heads above the detail and mm-hmm.

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What was this about?

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Deb: Yeah, I would agree.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Do you have other insights when you like

from that sort of heads up looking when

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you think back on that varied career?

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Deb: Um, I don't know.

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I mean, I.

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Didn't really have to do that

kind of introspection for other,

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uh, job related things, except

when I started to interview.

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So when I started to interview

for the dean's position, when I

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interviewed for a provost position,

those were situations where I had

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to look back and look for threads.

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So, for example, my management

style, how did I think about that?

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But it wasn't from.

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Any other documents I would say that

I had to produce for some reason.

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Geri Fitz: The other interesting thing

I thought just in the, in the very

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short potted history, and I will put

a link in the, on the webpage, on

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the episode notes to a great talk you

did that walks through that career

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path in a little bit more detail if

people are interested in seeing that.

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But the other thing that struck

me is, it doesn't sound like

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at any point you had this career

plan in mind and this was my path.

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It sounds quite opportunistic in a way

that someone told you about a job at Bell

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Labs or your husband happened to get a

move that was really perfect for him.

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Mm-hmm.

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Stuff happened in the industry

that where you went, nah,

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not the place for me anymore.

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Can you talk a little bit about those

transitions and again, I guess

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looking back on that, it wasn't

a set career path that you had it

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planned out, but stuff worked out.

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Deb: So I guess I would, what I

would say is I think I've always

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wanted to make a difference.

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I wanted to know that something

that I did had some impact.

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And when I was at Bell Labs there

was a problem that they came up with.

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There was a company that went to sodium

vapor lamps, and this was back when

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you had a big black telephone with,

uh, crystal buttons on the bottom and

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the light shone through the crystal.

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Well, because the sodium vapor

frequency and the frequency of the

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tungsten lights coming out, they

couldn't tell which phone was ringing.

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So we did a spectral analysis.

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My colleague did it, I

will, full disclosure.

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And we discovered that the right colors

to allow the maximum light coming

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out and the minimum light going in

was actually the color of the nail

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polish that one of the secretaries

had used to coat the buttons on her.

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But the, the point was we

made a difference, right?

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It, it helped people do something better.

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And I remember thinking, wow, I, I helped

somebody, you know, do something better.

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Mm.

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And that, I think, was the spark for

everything I wanted to do in my career.

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Mm-hmm.

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Uh, and so yes, opportunities changed.

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Sometimes I changed areas of research

due to funding changes, sometimes due to

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personal issues, but always, I was looking

for something where I felt I could make

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a difference and if truth be told, the

reason I retired from meta was I didn't

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feel like I was having much of an impact.

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And so I thought if I'm not doing

something that feels like it's having

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a real impact, then I should just stop.

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Yeah.

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So, I think that has been the thread.

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I was less fussy perhaps, or, or I was

just, I'm intrigued by a lot of things.

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So the domain that I worked in

didn't seem to matter to me as much

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as the fact that the work that I

was doing was making a difference.

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Geri Fitz: Mm.

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And that sounds, was it more of a

gut thing then when you just had

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that feeling or was it a head thing?

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Deb: I mean, I guess I looked to

things that, to me were indicators

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that something had been of value.

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Mm-hmm.

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So I would say throughout my entire

career the piece of research that I did

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with colleagues that I think was the most

impactful was work we did in an airline

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where we created procedures that embodied

good crew resource management techniques.

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And we had two fleets at this airline.

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We trained one fleet.

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We did not train the other fleet and.

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We had pilots who got promoted from

being first officer on the trained

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fleet onto being captains on the

untrained fleet, and they started

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teaching their no new co-pilots what we

had taught them on the trained fleet.

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And that just felt like a win, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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It was, they recognized that the help

we had given them, the information

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they needed to convey to, to their

pilots, their co-pilots, was valuable.

244

And so we saw that didn't help our

research a whole lot, but it was

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inspiring in a way that, you know,

when you publish a paper and maybe

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people read it, maybe people don't,

it just has a different feeling to it.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah, yeah.

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So you were looking for, you were

looking for those sorts of signs

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of validation of difference.

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So publications then.

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But how did that sit?

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Deb: I published.

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Mm-hmm.

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I did not publish as much as some

of my colleagues, but I published

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a respectable number of papers.

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And to be quite honest, I've, I've

heard things that say, you know, on

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average any given published paper

is only read by two or three people,

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and I've occasionally met younger

researchers who, um, I was explaining

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something I had done years ago and they

said, oh, yes, I've read that paper.

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And I'm always surprised.

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I mean, I, I, I'm truly shocked when

people say they've read my papers.

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But it is important to codify.

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I mean, as I tell graduate students,

and undergraduates when they work with

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me, if you don't publish what you find

then it goes into the bins of history.

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You know it's lost.

266

Mm-hmm.

267

Mm-hmm.

268

Uh, and if it's published,

at least there's a chance

269

that someone can build on it.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Yeah.

272

I think I was also just thinking

of that tension of wanting to make

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a real difference and the, the

academic paper, which feels so dry

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Deb: mm-hmm.

275

Geri Fitz: In comparison.

276

But then it's also the currency isn't it,

for staying in academia and being able

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to continue to make those difference.

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So,

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Deb: exactly.

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Geri Fitz: You know, cause I

know that some people are much

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more driven by the papers that

they get out in the publications.

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Deb: I have to say, looking

back on my life, writing is

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not my favorite thing to do.

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Mm-hmm..

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I'm a great editor, but that first

draft is always quite daunting.

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Yeah.

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Um.

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So when I look at my colleagues who

would keep multiple papers open on

289

their laptop and just write every spare

moment they had, that just wasn't me.

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Interestingly, as an administrator,

people say, you know, what did

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you get out of administration?

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It was the same thing of making

a difference and looking at

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what information people needed.

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You find in many systems,

you know, organizations, the

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information's not flowing very well.

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And so could I do positive things either

to change the culture or to change the

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information that people were getting.

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And over the years we've had to kind

of change the way that we deliver that.

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I remember when I first went to the

university, we used to get a, a eight

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by 11 or eight by 14 sheet of paper that

would be delivered to our mailbox and it

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would have kind of what's going on in the

university, just a front and the back.

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Mm-hmm.

303

And so I'd pull it outta my box and I

would read it as I was walking to my car.

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Now I have to sit in front of the computer

and be stationary and be intentional

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about looking at that, whereas that

opportunity just came up in the past.

306

Mm-hmm.

307

So I do think there are things we've lost

in terms of helpful modes of communication

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just to keep people in the loop.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

310

So, going to your administration,

sort of leadership roles, how did

311

that move happen and what did you like

about it that you kept going back?

312

'cause you said you kept going in and

out of faculty and leadership roles.

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Deb: After I got tenure, my department

chair pulled me aside and said, you

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need to do something administrative

because we're trying to reduce the

315

load on untenured faculty members.

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And so I chose to serve as

the undergraduate coordinator.

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At that time, the university was still

checking whether every student had met

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the graduation requirements by hand.

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Yes, I spent many, many hours

looking over graduation applications.

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But the university was in the

process of creating an electronic

321

mechanism for doing that.

322

And so I got a chance not only to

contribute to the way that looked, the

323

look and feel given then the technology

of the day, which wasn't all that useful.

324

Mm-hmm.

325

Um, but I also got to meet faculty

from other parts of the university.

326

And so it expanded my view.

327

I think a lot of faculty members are

reasonably so, very focused on their

328

department and their discipline, and they

don't necessarily have a reason to reach

329

out to colleagues in other departments.

330

And I found that

interesting and intriguing.

331

And at the end of my first

year as a coordinator, I.

332

Then we were doing evaluations of the

faculty, our own evaluations, and they

333

didn't look at the work that I had

done as the undergraduate coordinator.

334

They said, well, you got a

course released for that.

335

And so, you know, that's a wash.

336

And I was frustrated because I knew there

were others with administrative positions

337

who had not really done very much work.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah, yeah.

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Deb: And so I thought, well, if

I'm going to do administration,

340

then maybe I'll do it.

341

At a higher level and get

some more credit for it.

342

And as it happened, they were searching

for a part-time position as an assistant

343

dean of the graduate school, and it was

halftime and only a two year position

344

because they were in the process of

decentralizing the graduate school.

345

So I thought, well.

346

You know, I'm enjoying

meeting other people.

347

I'm enjoying having this impact on the

way that other people get to work in

348

the university by reducing their load

and, and having technology take over.

349

So maybe I'll see, I'll try it

for two years and see if it's

350

something I might like to do.

351

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

352

Deb: So that was, it really was,

again, not intentional, but.

353

It was in reaction to being frustrated.

354

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

355

Yeah.

356

Well, I'm frustrated on your behalf

that the work isn't acknowledged and

357

it sounded like, you know, in line

with your wanting to make a difference,

358

it sounded like it really did make a

difference, like you put in extra work

359

beyond the sort of the core definition

of the role and exactly where do you

360

think we've got any better as a sector

361

? Deb: The department did change

the way that they evaluate work.

362

Um, yeah.

363

In the department.

364

And they did eventually have separate

sections for research, teaching,

365

uh, service and administration,

if you were doing administration.

366

Mm-hmm.

367

So it did eventually, I think

get to where it should have been.

368

Yeah.

369

But it was not there at the time.

370

' Geri Fitz: cause it sounds

like one course release isn't

371

equal to the work that you did.

372

Deb: No, it was not

373

Geri Fitz: in that role.

374

And so when you were doing your

part-time assistant dean role, is that

375

above, is that still in the psychology

department or is that a higher level?

376

Deb: No, it was across the university.

377

Geri Fitz: Oh, okay.

378

Deb: So some universities, um, have

graduate programming that stays with

379

the college and some universities have

a separate graduate school that controls

380

enrollment and that sort of thing.

381

And that was what the model that we had.

382

Mm-hmm.

383

They did eventually switch to

the other model, uh, which is

384

why it was a two year position.

385

They knew they were gonna

switch to this other model.

386

Mm-hmm.

387

But we were responsible for

students across the spectrum.

388

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

389

And so that what, what additional skills

did that draw on stepping up to that?

390

Deb: So it required

thinking in a different way.

391

Mm.

392

So I will give you one example.

393

We had a student, actually

several students who applied

394

for extensions to, they had six

years to complete their degree.

395

Uh, their graduate degree and people

would apply for an extension at some

396

point in time when they were desperate

because they realized they had three

397

months left and they weren't gonna finish.

398

And so I had the bright idea that we

should just notify all the students when

399

they were coming up to, you know, some

deadline to avoid this last minute rush.

400

At which point the dean pointed out

that there were some departments who

401

were just happy to let things go.

402

That there were students who

probably weren't gonna finish,

403

and that by notifying them, it

might actually make things worse.

404

And so you really had to start

thinking about both my intended

405

consequence and the unintended

consequences that come from a decision.

406

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

407

Were you still able to

do research in that role?

408

Because you said it was part-time,

but we often know that part-time

409

roles are not part-time.

410

Deb: Yeah, that's correct.

411

So, yes, I still had obligations

to the department to do research.

412

Obviously they were reduced in some,

in terms of they wouldn't have expected

413

me to produce as much as if I had

been full-time in the department.

414

But a year into my position as assistant

dean, they decided to accelerate the

415

process and they moved me into the

provost office and they wanted me to go

416

full-time, which had not been the plan.

417

And so I found myself in a full-time

position, but I was still an

418

associate professor and I knew I

wanted to become a full professor.

419

So I did have a lot of tension

trying to maintain research while

420

I was also an administrator.

421

Geri Fitz: Because what were the criteria

at George Mason for full Professor?

422

Deb: It's really national or

international recognition.

423

Um, so people recognize your work and

it's, and it's being cited, well cited.

424

I think that was long before

the H Index came along.

425

But, evidence that people would be

willing to say that you had achieved

426

stature in the field such that people

would recognize your work Yeah.

427

And, and excellence of that work.

428

Yeah.

429

So you, it, it, they're very.

430

Difficult to pin down.

431

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

432

It sounds like the usual sort of,

its the usual research is the driver

433

for the step into full professor.

434

So you were working full

time as the vice Provost.

435

Deb: Oh yeah, yeah.

436

I was assistant then associate

then vice provost for research

437

and graduate studies and

438

Geri Fitz: family at this stage?

439

Deb: Yes.

440

I have three daughters.

441

They were maybe 10 ish or

so in that neighborhood.

442

Yeah.

443

Geri Fitz: And trying to

keep up a research profile.

444

Yes.

445

On the side.

446

On the side.

447

That now was not counted in the full time.

448

Deb: I mean, luckily, most of my research

I did in partnership with others.

449

Mm-hmm.

450

There was.

451

Very little that I did, just totally

on my own at that point in my career.

452

Mm-hmm.

453

So I also had, I had colleagues that I

could work with who would, in fact, for

454

a long time I had a great group of three.

455

One guy had these great ideas.

456

Another one I was really good at

getting people to sit down and execute.

457

And then, there was someone who's

really good at writing things up.

458

So it was.

459

Geri Fitz: Sounds like we had

a good, good mix of skills.

460

Deb: It was a wonderful mix of skills.

461

Yeah.

462

So I was quite lucky, I think,

to have supportive colleagues.

463

I will say that George Mason in

its history was not, it's now

464

a research one, but it was far

from that when I joined them.

465

Mm-hmm.

466

And, people were very collegial.

467

There wasn't the backbiting.

468

It was just wonderful because people

didn't care so much about credit as long

469

as you got on a paper because they had

started as a non-research university,

470

there wasn't that feeling of, you

know, I'll only succeed if you don't.

471

Mm-hmm.

472

So it was really helpful to me.

473

Yeah.

474

Because I was able to do things

in partnership with people.

475

Yeah.

476

I didn't always have to be

the first author, so, yeah.

477

Geri Fitz: And did you have explicit

discussions about those roles or was it,

478

did it just emerge naturally that that's

how you all complemented each other?

479

Deb: I'm not even sure they were aware.

480

Yeah.

481

My, my colleagues, I, I just

recognized what people's skills were.

482

Mm.

483

And I do think I haven an organizational

bent and so, um, I was able to, to

484

see where things, you know, could

move forward more, more smoothly.

485

Yeah.

486

Geri Fitz: Because I, that's

something I try to talk to people

487

about now, about having these

sorts of discussions proactively.

488

Mm-hmm.

489

About what do you think you're really

good at and how can we fit together and

490

what am I not so good at that you might be

able to complement and what is none of us?

491

What is it that none of us are good at?

492

That we have to find someone else?

493

Find someone else, or

just put in the effort.

494

Yeah, because that's

really valuable, isn't it?

495

Mm-hmm.

496

And so do, is that a change that

you are seeing, that you think

497

that it has become much more

competitive and less collegial now?

498

Deb: I there, there are.

499

Individuals who are very well published,

who are very well published because

500

they're just heads down working on their

stuff and just doing, you know, grinding

501

away, which is a good thing, but it

does make collegial work more difficult.

502

Now universities are attempting

to get people to do more of this,

503

especially across disciplinary lines.

504

And I suspect that the fact that I'm

in human factors, which in itself is a

505

mix between psychology and engineering,

helped me have that perspective.

506

Because, you know, you can have an

idea of how to build something, but

507

you may not be able to build it.

508

Yeah.

509

Um, if you don't have a

partner who can do that,.

510

So.

511

It may be that I was helped by the fact

that the university in, actually, the

512

other thing I would say about George

Mason, an early president was trying

513

to get more funding from the state or

more support from the state generally.

514

And the University of Virginia,

the flagship school in Virginia

515

Tech would both, whenever we tried

to get a doctoral program, would

516

say, oh, there, those upstarts,

they don't have qualified faculty.

517

They don't have the means to do this.

518

And so this president

positioned us as being more

519

interdisciplinary and responding

to the needs of Northern Virginia.

520

That meant that I think eight of the

first 10 doctoral programs that were

521

approved were interdisciplinary.

522

And so they had information technology.

523

They didn't have computer

science and engineering, they

524

just had this generic degree.

525

Psychology first started with a

PsyD and the PsyD was not only for

526

clinical, but also in human factors

io, um, which is really quite unusual.

527

And I remember faculty meetings where

we railed against the president.

528

He cares more about originality than

he does about, you know, quality.

529

But we had our PsyD,

I would say six years.

530

Geri Fitz: What's this psyD?

531

Deb: It's a PsyD, a doctorate in

psychology, and it is targeted at.

532

Individuals who want to practice

clinical psychology mm-hmm.

533

With the notion that instead of doing

a dissertation, they do a project, but

534

then they do supervised clinical hours

so that they're getting more exposure and

535

experience with the clinical practice.

536

So it was started in part,

I think, because there was a

537

dearth of qualified clinicians.

538

And PhD programs had people who

really didn't see themselves ever

539

doing research in the long term.

540

Yeah.

541

Doing this.

542

Um, so this was an alternative path

to become licensed as a clinician.

543

Geri Fitz: But the, some of the

faculty were against it, did you say?

544

Deb: Well, there is a belief in

some quarters that the, you know,

545

PhD is a higher quality, it's

certainly a more research degree.

546

Mm.

547

So if you are a researcher and you believe

strongly in research, you will see the

548

PsyD as a lighter, if you will, degree.

549

Right.

550

Um, but it was, it was developed and

targeted specifically for clinical psych.

551

It was never designed to be used

in any other field of psychology.

552

Yeah.

553

So that was what made it unusual.

554

I think we, in maybe one other

university in the whole United

555

States, were using it for something

other than a clinical psych program.

556

And after we'd had this degree about

six years, the president went to our

557

state council and said, you know, we're

offering this PsyD, but it's really a PhD.

558

Can we just change the name?

559

And they went, oh yeah, sure.

560

So it was one of those nose

under the tent and then blow the

561

tent wide open kinds of things.

562

And we went, oh my God.

563

He was so politically astute.

564

Geri Fitz: Just gonna say like, you.

565

Even like you, you saying before

about sending out the reminders

566

and then someone saying there are

unintended consequences, right.

567

As you're moving into these more

leadership positions, this is

568

different, you said, talked about

organizational thinking and or

569

you know that, but it requires

different sensitivities, doesn't it?

570

Deb: It does.

571

I mean, in.

572

As a faculty member, you

mostly care about yourself.

573

Mm-hmm.

574

And about your department.

575

Once you get, I mean, I was amazed

when I got to into the deanship

576

about how much research topics

overlap across disciplines.

577

My college was humanities

and social sciences.

578

And there were people in

English doing website design.

579

And I went, what?

580

And it, it was just amazing to me

to see how many topics actually

581

overlapped across all of those areas.

582

And of course, that's not quite as

diverse as engineering and social

583

sciences, but still lots and lots of

threads and things that really could be

584

more developed as an interdisciplinary

function than what they are.

585

We are still fairly stovepiped,

I think, in universities.

586

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

587

Moving into sort of provost type

roles and, and also then taking

588

on the dean of the college.

589

I'm curious about what were

those key skills that you

590

think you naturally brought?

591

What were the skills that

you had to learn to develop?

592

Deb: So I think I naturally

brought budgeting and organizing

593

or reorganizing skills to that.

594

I still have to work

on my listening skills.

595

Someone would come and bring a

complaint and they were so passionate

596

and you just kind of go all in until

you hear the other side of the story

597

from the other individual involved.

598

So it took a while for

me to learn to balance.

599

The other thing I had to learn to do.

600

It didn't come naturally is learning how

to talk to people about difficult issues.

601

Mm-hmm.

602

Um, I had had.

603

Worked with people who just

ignored difficult issues,

604

which then creates problems.

605

So if there's a problem in your

department and a faculty member is out

606

of line, if you're afraid to confront

them, it just continues and it affects

607

the culture of the whole department.

608

Yeah.

609

And so I learned that you

really need to address that.

610

And I did work with some people to

learn some skills about how to say,

611

okay, here's the issue I'm dealing with.

612

Here's what I see as your part

of it, but I could be mistaken

613

about what that part is.

614

You know, how do you feel

about this situation?

615

Mm-hmm.

616

And working to solve the problem

rather than blaming the individual.

617

Uh, and.

618

I will say after learning some

of those skills, I was surprised.

619

There were days I would go in dreading

that I had to meet with someone about

620

a difficult issue and then coming

out saying, gosh, that wasn't so bad.

621

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

622

So I think that's worth just repeating.

623

'cause many people, even if they're

not in more senior leadership roles,

624

even if you're supervising a student

at, at whatever level, may well

625

have to have difficult conversations.

626

So you talked about, a framework that

talked about, you know, like naming

627

the issues as an objective thing.

628

Yes.

629

What you see.

630

Owning your I don't know, interpretation

or possible interpretation, but then

631

inviting the other person to provide

their perspective so that Yes.

632

Listening and giving

them a chance to talk.

633

And that then I liked the bit about

focusing on solving rather than blaming.

634

Yes.

635

Deb: Right.

636

My goal as a.

637

Leader is not to get someone upset

because they're doing the wrong thing.

638

Mm.

639

I wanna solve the problem.

640

And if I can engage them in working

with me to solve the problem.

641

Now there were some situations where

they weren't willing to work with me

642

and I needed to take more drastic steps.

643

And really to do that, you have

to be willing to be disliked.

644

So, mm-hmm.

645

There's another piece of that is that, I

mean, inherently I am a people pleaser.

646

But in that role, you sometimes

have to make decisions that not

647

everyone will like, and you have

to be willing to accept that.

648

Some people will not like

the choices you make.

649

You do the best you can with the

information you have at the time, and

650

you hope that, you know, things go

as you would like, but you have to be

651

willing to accept those consequences,

and that's sometimes difficult.

652

Geri Fitz: Yeah, I would imagine that

that would be often because if you

653

are the one holding the responsibility

for the decision making, ultimately

654

Deb: mm-hmm.

655

Geri Fitz: Part of your role, and

I think what you've also sort of

656

alluded to is, you've got multiple

priorities, values, mm-hmm.

657

Stakeholder concerns.

658

I, I don't like that language, but

you're not gonna be ever able to

659

find a perfect answer for everyone.

660

That's right.

661

So I'm thinking about being a faculty

member and reflecting, how I often

662

wouldn't have that perspective on

the difficulties that the person who

663

was in the leadership position had.

664

Deb: Mm-hmm.

665

Geri Fitz: How they were trying to provide

the, a best solution, recognizing that

666

they're not going to keep all of us happy.

667

And it's really easy to get

selfish and think that I should

668

be happy with your decision.

669

If you were talking to faculty members

or what would you want us to do, how,

670

how would you want us to respond or how

could we help someone in leadership in,

671

in supporting those sorts of decisions?

672

Deb: Well, but just asking what

went into this decision, right?

673

Why did you make the call that you did?

674

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

675

Deb: And being open to

understanding mm-hmm.

676

That I was faced with trade-offs.

677

Mm-hmm.

678

That if I did X, this

would be the outcome.

679

If I did Y, this would be the outcome.

680

And.

681

Given the choices that I had and the

constraints in, in decision making, you

682

know, this was what I thought was best.

683

If we're coming to a conclusion, I

would certainly take input on what

684

they felt was the better alternative.

685

Ultimately I had to make a call.

686

I don't know if it's universal.

687

In our university, people loved consensus.

688

They always wanted to be able to

come to consensus, and I had to

689

learn that it's not always possible.

690

And if you wait too

long, then things fester.

691

So you do at some point just

have to make a decision and.

692

You know, there's that other, that's that

other piece of this working together.

693

I'm listening and I'm trying to

bring us all to the same conclusion,

694

but I also recognize that that's

not always gonna be possible.

695

That, yeah, what's good for this

is not good for this and there're

696

gonna be people on both sides.

697

So I need to look at the situation

from both the faculty member up

698

and the university down and say,

okay, what is the best solution?

699

I think under the circumstances,

and you're not always right.

700

Uh, you know, sometimes afterwards

you think, oh, that wasn't

701

the best thing to have done.

702

Yeah.

703

But.

704

You know, we're not perfect.

705

Geri Fitz: As you said best, that you

could make best decision at the time.

706

Deb: At the time, and with

the information I had.

707

Mm-hmm.

708

Geri Fitz: Which is interesting when

you said that your, uh, red thread

709

across some of the early career stuff

and the research stuff in different

710

industries was what information do

people need to make good decisions?

711

Deb: Yes, that's right.

712

Yep.

713

Geri Fitz: And, what information did you

need as a leader to make good decisions?

714

Deb: It depended on the the issue.

715

Um.

716

Oftentimes it was finances.

717

You know, we had a college

that was woefully underfunded.

718

And both as a chair and as a

dean, I had to make decisions.

719

Do I make this faculty member

happy by giving them a raise?

720

But then, disadvantage this

other department because

721

they now can't hire someone?

722

Or, you know, things like, do I ask my

faculty to take on larger class sizes?

723

Because if we have higher enrollments,

the university will give us

724

more funding for the department.

725

So there are lots of

different kinds of trade-offs.

726

You need different information

for those different situations.

727

Geri Fitz: Did you develop any

particular mechanisms or platforms

728

or whatever for engaging with people

and getting their views or inputs?

729

I mean, I know I, again, it probably

depends on what the issue is and, uh.

730

Deb: So, as a chair and as a dean,

I had meetings with relevant groups.

731

So as department chair, I had

a faculty meeting every month.

732

As a dean, I had meetings with

my, um, department chairs.

733

And when I started, a lot of what I,

I would go to the dean, the meeting

734

with the dean as a chair, and the dean

would give us all this information.

735

I would come back and I would spend

a large portion of my meeting kind

736

of regurgitating what I had heard.

737

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

738

Deb: I eventually realized

that was not the most effective

739

way to work with people.

740

So what I did was I sent very long

agendas, sometimes as many as 50 pages.

741

If someone had given us a, a

PowerPoint briefing, I just

742

attached the PowerPoint briefing.

743

Mm.

744

So instead of me summarizing

it, I let them look through it.

745

And then in my meeting we

were able to have discussions.

746

So, you know, what concerns

did you have about this issue?

747

And so I asked people to be prepared

coming into the meeting in the dean's

748

meetings, I did the same thing and

I listed each item on my agenda.

749

But at the start of the meeting I

said, by raise of hands, how many

750

people want to talk about this issue?

751

And we would do a count, and I

would just take them from the most

752

pressing issue or the one that.

753

People wanted to chat about so that

we were using that time for discussion

754

and communication and sharing of

information rather than me just dumping

755

stuff, them not knowing anything about

it, having to process it, think it

756

through, and then coming back later.

757

Now I had hoped as Dean that

my chairs would then take that

758

packet that I sent them and send

it to their whole department.

759

Many of them did not.

760

And I would hear from faculty members,

well, I didn't know about that.

761

Yeah.

762

And I think, oh, yeah, yeah.

763

Geri Fitz: Yes.

764

I think, I'm just reflecting on some

discussions I've heard just recently

765

from a few different people, people at

different universities, and that has often

766

been a component, especially when they're

in situations of change, high change.

767

Um, so is that not getting through.

768

But that model of giving people

the information beforehand

769

Deb: mm-hmm.

770

Geri Fitz: With the expectation

that they at least familiarize

771

themselves enough to be able to

say, yes, I want to talk about it.

772

Right.

773

Both has the advantage of enabling

different people with different thinking

774

styles, you know, who may need more time

to consider stuff compared to others of

775

us who might just be able to go blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah, straight away.

776

Mm-hmm.

777

Yeah.

778

It gives, it gives everyone time to

process information and I love that it

779

then creates the space for the discussion

rather than the one way throw it out.

780

Mm-hmm.

781

Deb: Yeah.

782

Yeah.

783

It was so much better after

we switched to, to that model.

784

Geri Fitz: And do have any other hard

earned tips and tricks for anyone

785

in leadership positions around the

aspects particular to being in leadership

786

roles, whether it's dean level or just,

running a research project or whatever.

787

Deb: I don't know that there are

any special tips that I have.

788

I mean, I just like to have lists

and so the agendas when I would

789

send the agenda to the department

when we had issues to discuss.

790

And so for example, a tenure case, I

would estimate how much time was needed.

791

And there were times when we

didn't have much to discuss.

792

There was a lot of just,

you know, getting together.

793

And every now and then someone would

email me and say, just want to let

794

you know I'm going to be out of town.

795

But I read through the agenda and

it looks like it's light, so I

796

don't think I'm gonna miss much.

797

And it was great that even people

who had to miss a meeting were

798

informed, were in the loop.

799

Yeah.

800

Yeah.

801

Geri Fitz: Yeah, and I know that there's

research that talks about, as academics,

802

that's one of the things that we just

want to, we want to be informed and

803

at least feel like we've had a say.

804

I'm sure if that research was repeated

now there'd be other challenges.

805

But yeah.

806

Any particular differences between

leadership within an industry setting?

807

Because you then went to Oculus and

that and leadership in universities

808

that you would reflect on.

809

Deb: So, I would say my, the

scope of leadership that I had

810

in, uh, industry was smaller.

811

But I did try to use the same mechanisms,

having an agenda for a meeting, trying

812

to make sure everyone speaks and

is heard, giving space for people

813

who tend not to speak up as much.

814

And.

815

In industry, they also, or at least

at meta, I won't say necessarily,

816

they have like one-on-ones.

817

So anyone who reports directly to you

has a regular standing meeting with you.

818

Now at the university, I did

encourage that with my chairs.

819

I wanted them to come in and meet

with me on a regular basis and do

820

that, but it wasn't as structured,

I think, as it was in industry.

821

And really the goal was to say.

822

How are things going?

823

Where are you stuck?

824

What's my role in helping you get unstuck?

825

And that's, I think, a very useful

thing because sometimes one level up

826

you can do things and move things along

in a way that an individual can't.

827

Yeah.

828

And that's something that I don't

see happening much in a university.

829

I mean, I think you're much more

left to your own devices Yes.

830

To make things happen.

831

Geri Fitz: Yes, you are.

832

Even though people above could

provide insights or direction.

833

What I liked about what you said

there was you didn't take on the

834

problem and turn into problem solver.

835

Mm-hmm.

836

You said basically, what do

you need from me, or what's my

837

role in helping you with that?

838

Mm-hmm.

839

Which is a lovely message back to

the person that I trust you to, you

840

know, to find a way through, and

I'm here to absolutely support you.

841

Deb: And if you need help and

you're not sure what to do,

842

let's problem solve together.

843

Mm.

844

Geri Fitz: We don't have that culture,

as you say in universities and no, well,

845

it's not been my experience either.

846

Deb: Yeah.

847

There's a lot of discussion about

mentors and, and mentorship.

848

And there seems to be this

notion that you have one person.

849

And there's a group in the

US it's a group that supports

850

faculty development and they talk

about having a mentoring map.

851

So the person who can be your

safe space that you can complain

852

to when things aren't going well.

853

Yeah.

854

And the person who's

gonna critique your work.

855

And the person who's gonna help you

understand the politics at the university

856

or your current job or whatever it is.

857

And understanding that no one person

probably can fill all those roles.

858

Your role as a woman versus a man

versus a minority in a majority culture.

859

Mm-hmm.

860

All of those things, you know,

no one person has them all, and.

861

It's also easier for the mentor who

has a particular expertise to be

862

able to say, yes, let's meet when

you have an issue on this topic.

863

Yes, and I'm happy to help you, but it

doesn't have to be a month, you know, once

864

a week, once a month, kind of a situation.

865

And somehow I think in universities,

that mentorship model doesn't

866

seem to happen naturally.

867

Geri Fitz: Mm, yes.

868

And I think it could also be tied up

with what you said before about it

869

becoming increasingly competitive as

well, the, the competition where, mm-hmm.

870

The time to be available and to share

and to reach out and to connect.

871

So identifying what your needs are

and who's your board of mentors

872

as I've heard people mm-hmm.

873

Talk about.

874

Yeah.

875

Yeah.

876

Deb: And I was lucky.

877

I did have a few people who reached

out and supported me early on.

878

Uh, when I was at GE, a group

of managers led by something I

879

suggested, made a decision while our.

880

the next level manager was away and

he came back and was very unhappy and

881

he said, well, who made this call?

882

And a more senior person said it was me.

883

And I looked at him because

I thought it was me.

884

And I asked him afterwards, I said,

why did you take credit for that?

885

'cause I did it.

886

And he said, I'm in a better position

to handle the blowback than you are.

887

And he said it wasn't going to hurt me.

888

And I went, oh my God, how lovely.

889

You know?

890

But I hadn't realized it.

891

And then when I got to the university,

there was a more senior faculty member

892

who pulled me aside and said, if you're

gonna get tenure, you need to do service.

893

Let me tell you the service opportunities

that aren't that overbearing.

894

Geri Fitz: Nice.

895

Deb: And so she, she helped me a lot.

896

Yeah.

897

Now I have to tell you a funny story.

898

I found out many, many years later that

at the time I interviewed, I was about

899

seven months pregnant and this person

who eventually mentored me without my

900

asking, had said to the department chair,

great candidate, two bad she's pregnant.

901

I know.

902

Geri Fitz: Sorry, my mouth was just open.

903

Deb: Yep.

904

So.

905

You never know.

906

She was, she was wonderful

to me once I got there.

907

Yeah.

908

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

909

Just conscious of time marching on.

910

Mm-hmm.

911

When you look back over this career

and I, you've already given us so many

912

really lovely insights that I think

we can all apply in regardless of

913

our roles, what are you proudest of?

914

Deb: Gosh, so.

915

I'm reminded of, there was a

listserv early in my career of

916

women in computer science, faculty

members in computer science.

917

Not sure how I got on the list.

918

I mean, I was doing HCI work,

but, and they said they didn't

919

feel really good at anything.

920

But what they were good at was

juggling that, you know, they would

921

do work, work, work, work, work.

922

And then, you know, they'd realize,

well, family's dropping and they'd

923

throw it up in the other air.

924

I think I'm most proud of the fact that.

925

My children still love me and feel

like I gave them an okay life, even

926

though I was balancing all these crazy

things, um, with both parents working.

927

I don't know that there's any one thing

I would pick out from my career per se.

928

it's really more.

929

Having my girls wanting to

be around me now that mm-hmm.

930

They're adults and they have children

of their own and they want me to help.

931

Yeah.

932

Geri Fitz: So you, one of the things

you mentioned before we started as

933

well was a course that you created

about lots of how tos, mm-hmm.

934

What was that?

935

That's because it sounds

really innovative.

936

Deb: So I would say of the courses I've

taught in the work that I did as a faculty

937

member, I was most proud of this course.

938

It was a course on work skills.

939

So how to identify

opportunities for grants.

940

How to write a grant proposal.

941

In fact, the very first time we did

it, someone who was a granting agent

942

read all of the proposals that my

students wrote and gave them feedback.

943

It was just lovely.

944

How to give.

945

Good presentation.

946

How to budget, different

career opportunities, industry,

947

government, uh, academia.

948

And within academia.

949

People often think because they're.

950

By definition, if you were in a doctoral

program, you're in a doctoral institution.

951

So they forget that there are

community colleges and tribal

952

colleges and four year colleges that

are focused on the undergraduates.

953

So given different careers, how

to write their resume, and how

954

to track what they're doing.

955

Um, and in light of that, we talk about

a CAGE, career accomplishments, um, and.

956

I, it's, I've said to you and to

others, I look at my resume now

957

and there are things I see on, on

there that I don't remember doing.

958

And it's important, especially as

you think to the future, if you're,

959

you know, people change jobs quite

a bit more now than they used to.

960

Can you capture what you were trying

to achieve in a project, what you did

961

achieve, and what skills it demonstrates?

962

Is it a leadership skill?

963

Is it an organizational skill?

964

Is it a publishing skill?

965

What are the things you learned from that?

966

And then just keep that.

967

It's just for you, but it lets

you look back on your career and

968

see the things that you've done.

969

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

970

Deb: Yep.

971

Geri Fitz: So CAGE stands

for, do you remember?

972

Deb: Career accomplishments,

goals and experiences, I think.

973

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

974

Yes.

975

Career accomplishments,

goals and experiences.

976

Right.

977

Yeah.

978

And those things that you've just

talked about in terms of the how to's

979

they're transferable skills generally.

980

Okay.

981

Deb: Absolutely.

982

And, and they work no matter what

the setting, even personally, just

983

keeping track of what you've done,

and what you've accomplished.

984

And, and there's so many of us, so

as an academic, if you leave graduate

985

school and you go to a university.

986

You likely have had no

training in teaching?

987

Yeah, no training in how to prepare

a course, how to build a syllabus,

988

how to do all those things.

989

You may never have

written a grant proposal.

990

You know, you may have written something

for a small scholarship or something,

991

but writing a grant proposal with

budgets and such, and yet you're

992

expected to do that when you get there.

993

Now some universities are starting to

have support systems for faculty so

994

that they can get experience or they

can learn about it when they get there.

995

But I just think it prepares students

better regardless of the industry

996

they go into when they leave to

know how to do some of these things.

997

I mean, I learned budgeting at

GE where I had a grant and I

998

had to account for the money.

999

Luckily I figured it out and my

manager helped me with that, but I've

00:54:44,265 --> 00:54:46,065

never been trained on how to do that.

00:54:46,275 --> 00:54:49,425

And so it just helps you succeed

when you walk out the door.

00:54:50,115 --> 00:54:55,015

Geri Fitz: And even your statement as

well about talking to people about

00:54:55,015 --> 00:54:57,325

different types of university roles.

00:54:57,325 --> 00:55:00,145

People would think of academia and

just think of research intensive.

00:55:00,625 --> 00:55:04,405

But your career also points to the

fact that thinking about university

00:55:04,405 --> 00:55:07,735

roles can also be thinking about

the diverse range of roles you can

00:55:07,735 --> 00:55:09,865

play within an academic institution.

00:55:09,865 --> 00:55:14,695

So it's not just a research intensive

faculty member or a teaching

00:55:14,695 --> 00:55:16,195

intensive faculty member that mm-hmm.

00:55:16,465 --> 00:55:18,805

You can move into more

of these leadership.

00:55:20,095 --> 00:55:21,175

And Absolutely.

00:55:21,175 --> 00:55:22,165

Management roles.

00:55:22,585 --> 00:55:22,795

Deb: Mm-hmm.

00:55:23,095 --> 00:55:27,655

Geri Fitz: What would be the trainings

that you'd love to see in an ideal world

00:55:27,655 --> 00:55:31,045

for people to be set up for those roles?

00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:37,340

Deb: So, our university did eventually

develop a training program for

00:55:37,340 --> 00:55:38,870

people who are interested in that.

00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:41,640

And it looked at, looking

at yourself first.

00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:46,650

They did mm-hmm some various, you know,

little tests of where your skills lie.

00:55:46,830 --> 00:55:50,990

So, and then looking at the group

that was there, which they pulled

00:55:50,990 --> 00:55:52,640

together from across the university.

00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,190

If you were gonna staff a project,

which skills would you need to have?

00:55:56,190 --> 00:55:59,850

And we did kind of a grid of the

skills, people's top skills, and

00:55:59,850 --> 00:56:02,070

what the team had as a whole.

00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,370

So learning to think about

how you create teams mm-hmm.

00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:07,540

Partnerships.

00:56:07,810 --> 00:56:11,260

There was information on how the

university's budget ran, so there

00:56:11,260 --> 00:56:15,010

were a lot of things like that,

that were in that training program.

00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:15,340

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

00:56:16,940 --> 00:56:20,270

They sound really important

skills for everyone to have

00:56:20,270 --> 00:56:22,910

as well at whatever level.

00:56:25,399 --> 00:56:28,454

And anything to reflect about

being a woman in academia?

00:56:28,554 --> 00:56:32,724

Deb: So when George Mason was

established, it was actually a

00:56:32,724 --> 00:56:34,884

college of the University of Virginia.

00:56:34,974 --> 00:56:39,174

It was a Northern Virginia

Branch campus and as a result

00:56:39,174 --> 00:56:41,064

it was not research intensive.

00:56:41,574 --> 00:56:45,644

And it also drew a lot of

women as faculty members.

00:56:46,064 --> 00:56:54,194

So when I started at George Mason

00:56:54,194 --> 00:56:59,594

departments in our college, probably

seven or eight of them were women.

00:57:00,374 --> 00:57:03,794

The year I came up for tenure,

my department chair was a woman.

00:57:03,854 --> 00:57:04,964

My dean was a woman.

00:57:05,024 --> 00:57:06,254

The provost was a woman.

00:57:06,834 --> 00:57:07,194

Geri Fitz: Very unusual.

00:57:07,554 --> 00:57:08,964

Deb: It's never happened since.

00:57:08,994 --> 00:57:11,154

So it was very unusual.

00:57:11,634 --> 00:57:20,254

And I will say that I had a blessedly

free time, by and large, in terms

00:57:20,254 --> 00:57:24,964

of feeling left out as a woman or

feeling like the only one in the room,

00:57:24,964 --> 00:57:28,564

because we did have a large number

of female faculty members around.

00:57:29,449 --> 00:57:34,069

Now I will say when I was on campus

one day, pregnant with my second, a man

00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:38,689

walking past me said, oh, in my day, women

in your condition weren't seen in public.

00:57:40,039 --> 00:57:40,489

Yes.

00:57:40,489 --> 00:57:42,259

Geri Fitz: It's a bit outrageous.

00:57:43,099 --> 00:57:44,089

Deb: It was more than, yes.

00:57:44,089 --> 00:57:45,169

It was outrageous.

00:57:45,229 --> 00:57:45,739

Um.

00:57:46,459 --> 00:57:47,689

But that was unusual.

00:57:47,769 --> 00:57:53,769

And I would say I felt being a woman

more in some of the administrative

00:57:53,769 --> 00:57:55,719

roles I played outside the university.

00:57:56,349 --> 00:57:56,379

Okay.

00:57:56,469 --> 00:58:01,379

So, I was the second woman president of

the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society.

00:58:01,679 --> 00:58:04,919

The first one had been in the

seventies, and I was then in the

00:58:04,919 --> 00:58:08,579

nineties and I thought, okay, now we

certainly have broken the barrier.

00:58:08,579 --> 00:58:12,029

It was almost another 10 years before

another woman was elected president.

00:58:12,884 --> 00:58:16,064

I do remember talking with the

gentleman on the executive council,

00:58:16,064 --> 00:58:19,124

you they often talk about who

should we elect for the next round?

00:58:19,664 --> 00:58:22,274

And they said, well, you know, we

should have more women presidents.

00:58:22,304 --> 00:58:24,044

And I said, well, that's easy.

00:58:24,074 --> 00:58:24,734

And they said, what?

00:58:24,734 --> 00:58:26,354

I said, we just nominate three women.

00:58:26,354 --> 00:58:28,274

And they went, oh, you can't do that.

00:58:28,334 --> 00:58:29,264

I said, why not?

00:58:29,264 --> 00:58:31,094

Three guys have run lots of times.

00:58:32,429 --> 00:58:34,604

But there was still that resistance there.

00:58:34,784 --> 00:58:39,194

I was, I think, the first female

chair of the FAA advisory board.

00:58:40,544 --> 00:58:42,104

For human factors research.

00:58:42,374 --> 00:58:46,514

So there were places where I would

look out and see a sea of black suits.

00:58:46,604 --> 00:58:46,694

Mm-hmm.

00:58:46,934 --> 00:58:54,194

Um, but I will say I rarely felt

like I was discriminated against.

00:58:54,194 --> 00:58:59,344

I didn't feel like I was necessarily,

being demeaned in any way, shape or form.

00:58:59,434 --> 00:58:59,494

Yeah.

00:58:59,524 --> 00:59:03,094

So, from that perspective,

it was not an issue for me.

00:59:03,499 --> 00:59:04,249

Geri Fitz: That's good.

00:59:04,729 --> 00:59:05,299

That's great.

00:59:05,329 --> 00:59:06,679

Well, thank you for sharing that.

00:59:06,679 --> 00:59:07,159

That was just mm-hmm.

00:59:07,579 --> 00:59:11,389

Interesting to hear and

sounds, it does sound unusual.

00:59:12,619 --> 00:59:13,249

Deb: It was.

00:59:13,459 --> 00:59:17,839

Um, as I say, we were blessed to

have so many women in leadership

00:59:17,839 --> 00:59:19,999

positions when I was untenured.

00:59:20,089 --> 00:59:22,549

Uh, and which continued

for quite some time.

00:59:22,554 --> 00:59:22,744

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

00:59:23,869 --> 00:59:24,559

That's brilliant.

00:59:25,429 --> 00:59:26,179

Well, thank you.

00:59:27,819 --> 00:59:33,759

Is there anything we haven't talked

about that you wanted to share?

00:59:35,859 --> 00:59:37,359

Deb: No, I can't think of anything.

00:59:37,359 --> 00:59:40,039

I think it's been a lovely

conversation and I'm delighted

00:59:40,039 --> 00:59:41,149

with the directions it took.

00:59:42,004 --> 00:59:42,754

Geri Fitz: And yeah.

00:59:42,754 --> 00:59:44,224

So thank you Deb.

00:59:44,254 --> 00:59:47,164

Really appreciate you taking the time.

00:59:47,464 --> 00:59:51,094

And, enjoy this next phase of life.

00:59:51,934 --> 00:59:52,624

Deb: Thank you.

00:59:52,624 --> 00:59:55,084

Geri Fitz: And the opportunity to

make a difference in different ways.

00:59:56,014 --> 00:59:57,514

Deb: Well, thank you for having me on.

00:59:57,514 --> 00:59:58,594

It's been delightful.

01:00:02,324 --> 01:00:06,404

Geri Fitz: You can find the summary notes,

a transcript and related links for this

01:00:06,404 --> 01:00:11,324

podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.

01:00:11,984 --> 01:00:16,954

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01:00:17,004 --> 01:00:20,064

And I'm really hoping that we can

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01:00:20,064 --> 01:00:22,044

we can do academia differently.

01:00:22,464 --> 01:00:26,544

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01:00:27,054 --> 01:00:30,594

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01:00:30,594 --> 01:00:31,889

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01:00:32,704 --> 01:00:34,894

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