Does your team or organization practice "the hand wave concept?" If so, then you're probably not aligning with each other and you're heading towards chaos. So, how do you prevent your team from becoming a disarray?

Through structure, discipline and coaching, you'll be able to keep your team aligned. Learn some practical skills to implement into your leadership, from Dwaine Canova.

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Host

You're listening to the No Grey Areas podcast with Patrick McCalla. Today's guest is Dwaine Canova, prolific author, keynote speaker and entrepreneur. Duane explains how to become an exceptional executive team by implementing structures. Let's dove in.

Patrick McCalla

Welcome Duane Canova to the No Grey Areas podcast. So good to have you here. Great to be here. So anybody who's watching most of our audience or just listeners, so I'll tell them we have a stack of books in front of us and these have all been written by you, and we're actually missing quite a few, right

Patrick McCalla

? We're missing a number of right.

Dwaine Canova

A couple of them.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. So you are a prolific author.

Patrick McCalla

We've known each other for over ten years. You actually came in as a consultant for a company that I was working with an organization that I was helping to lead years ago. And I just told last week we had lunch and I told you how I have used and implemented the materials that you taught me all those

Patrick McCalla

years ago. For over a decade now, everywhere I've gone, I've used those.

Dwaine Canova

Wow. So it's just great to hear.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, yeah, appreciate it so much. And we're going to get into that in a little bit. But let me, first of all, just to have the audience get to know you a little bit. Some people might say that you were a kid from nowhere, right?

Patrick McCalla

Why is that? Where are you from?

Dwaine Canova

Dwaine Canova

And our.

Dwaine Canova

Little downtown had a two block area. There were businesses on each side of that little, excuse me, the four block area, two blocks in each direction from the center, the center intersection. Yeah. And so a little town and everyone knew everyone.

Dwaine Canova

In fact, I'm still today very close friends with some of the people from my kindergarten class.

Patrick McCalla

Oh my goodness, OK. Now again, most people there, they're just listening. So let's to get an idea how long that's been. I won't ask you your age, but just tell me you and your wife just celebrated how many anniversaries.

Dwaine Canova

Together we are. We're just finishing, finishing up 56 years together. Wow.

Patrick McCalla

And you got married when you were five?

Dwaine Canova

Actually, I was a full 21.

Patrick McCalla

Year full 21. Okay, they can.

Patrick McCalla

Do the math. So when you say that you're still friends with kindergartners at school and a lot of decades back with you with with kindergarten friends?

Dwaine Canova

Oh yeah.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah. There's a lot of stories that go with it.

Dwaine Canova

But yeah.

Dwaine Canova

There were probably 15 of them at the time, and we're still close with probably six of us. Quite a few have passed, but 72 years of friendship. So it's kind of fun.

Patrick McCalla

I kind of wish we had one of them on here because they might tell some stories about you that you wouldn't tell about yourself.

Dwaine Canova

Only only nice things. We built this pact many years ago.

Patrick McCalla

That's why you're so. That's why we're still friends. Yeah, you're still friends.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. So you mentioned something about right before we turn these mikes on, you said something about being kind of a child of the grapes of Wrath of wrath. Yeah. And I know that book. Let's pretend some of our audience doesn't explain that.

Dwaine Canova

Grapes of Wrath is about a time period. Number of writers, you know, kind of wrote about that. Steinbeck wrote the book The Grapes of Wrath, but it was about a time period. It was sort of the end of prohibition, but there was also the Dust Bowl days of Oklahoma.

Dwaine Canova

And.

Dwaine Canova

People from the Midwest. The farmers and different people migrated out to California, and they ended up out here because it was a place where there was work because the depression had just come along.

Dwaine Canova

In fact.

Dwaine Canova

Dwaine Canova

And then my my mother's.

Patrick McCalla

second grade and then he's going to work.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, he went to did in the eight years old, seven, eight years old and full time. Yeah. Anyway, that there's a whole deal stories that go with that. But my mother was said she made it through the eighth grade and but she came to California.

Dwaine Canova

My dad was 40, my mother was 20. And here I am. So we, you know, they had me. I was their.

Dwaine Canova

Oldest and.

Dwaine Canova

They moved down to this little farm town and we lived sort of at the end of what was Main Street. There were a few places in between there.

Dwaine Canova

But we.

Dwaine Canova

Had this nice little 16 foot trailer that the four of us lived in. I had a little brother, yeah, and we just fell in love with the little town. And that's kind of grapes of wrath.

Patrick McCalla

And that's it's so crazy because, you know, I didn't I didn't meet you until about a decade ago. And I mean, you look at anybody who's watching, they see the stack of books here and you've done business really in some ways at an international level, right?

Patrick McCalla

So you go from this little boy in this little tiny town where all these years later, you're still friends with some of your your your fellow kindergartners all those years back. But but God has had you on quite a journey, right?

Patrick McCalla

You've done some pretty impressive things. Interesting things. Tell us a little bit about that.

Dwaine Canova

Well, you know, we're all built in different ways. Sort of we all know this. Particularly we notice it with our children, each of the children come and they kind of have their own hardware, but they also have their own software.

Dwaine Canova

Their own operating system has their own.

Dwaine Canova

So true.

Dwaine Canova

So here in this little town, as I came back from the kindergarten class at five years old, I noticed some of the kids were selling newspapers on the street corner. So I started selling newspapers on the street corner.

Dwaine Canova

In this little town, it didn't take very long.

Dwaine Canova

I could go.

Dwaine Canova

Over and buy ten papers for $0.07 a piece. I could go run two or three blocks and get into town, and I could sell those ten papers for a little.

Patrick McCalla

Entrepreneur, for a.

Dwaine Canova

Dollar. Yeah, and go home with $0.30.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah. Well, that.

Dwaine Canova

Got expanded because I would go in in our little town of four blocks. We had four bars and I would go into the bars to. Sell newspapers, and while I was in there, one of the guys said to me, Hey, why don't you get a shoeshine kit and come shine my shoes?

Dwaine Canova

So at six, I'm shining shoes and.

Dwaine Canova

I got a.

Dwaine Canova

Quarter whole quarter, a whole quarter. And so I would do the newspaper that.

Patrick McCalla

Was big money back. Oh my God.

Dwaine Canova

Well.

Dwaine Canova

You know, I felt like Elon Musk must, you know, you know.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dwaine Canova

I would go home with that change rattling in my pocket and put it into my Big Piggy bank. And oh yeah, and literally a piggy bank. And you could hear it. Clink, you hear it in there. And so it was a great time and a great town.

Patrick McCalla

And yeah, just so so at a very young age, you start. You had this kind of this business mind. You're already a little bit of an entrepreneur, but that ends up going into like years later, you actually had some pretty good sized businesses, right?

Dwaine Canova

Yes. Well, even at eight, I had the chance to kind of build a newspaper route. So rather than just selling on the street corner, I went around door to door and I ended up with 100 customers and I would deliver their newspapers every day.

Dwaine Canova

I did that. So at.

Patrick McCalla

eight years old, you develop a customer base of 100 people in a little.

Dwaine Canova

Town in the little town. And I love that I did that till I was 15. Yeah, and just had a great time with it. But so always kind of thinking about it. And it wasn't so much the money.

Dwaine Canova

It was the sense of finishing the route every day, getting it done. And of course, I was, you know, an athlete. I got to play all kinds of sports. We had great weather there, so we played sports, did all that sort of thing.

Dwaine Canova

And year round had a great time and school was terrific, spectacular teachers, spectacular coaches.

Dwaine Canova

And it.

Dwaine Canova

Just was a magnificent time. And so by the time I'm finishing high school, I'm I was being scouted, and so I had a chance to sign Minor League Baseball with the Mets, OK? But I ended up getting a scholarship to Fresno State.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

And Fresno State in those days had what was considered the number one coach in the college circuits then was Biden. And so I had a chance to go up there.

Patrick McCalla

And you chose that?

Dwaine Canova

Well, I chose that because because actually I had a I had a scholarship for academics up there to major in agriculture and went up there, found out that these guys playing college ball were so much better than me.

Dwaine Canova

I had better get really good at this agriculture so I could feed a family. So yeah, so that was the baseball. But so I have much admiration for all those folks.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, yeah. Well, then you go on you. You ended up developing a couple of businesses did really well, but you've been a student of leadership for a long time. When you were leading things yourself and in fact, almost all of these books are about leadership.

Patrick McCalla

So I do this anytime I have anybody on this podcast and we start talking about leadership because part of the thing about this podcast, we talk about living on purpose for a purpose. Talk about kindness, different character qualities, principles of life.

Patrick McCalla

But whenever we talk about leadership, I always want to pause because I don't want anybody to to reach over and turn it off and go, Well, I'm not a leader, so this doesn't apply to me. So what would you say to someone who's maybe reaching over right now and saying, I'm not a leader, this doesn't apply to

Patrick McCalla

me. What would you say to them?

Dwaine Canova

Well, first of all, all of us are impacted by leaders. That's the very first thing. The second thing is now with quite a few decades of being involved in leadership roles and at the front of.

Dwaine Canova

The.

Dwaine Canova

Room, if you will.

Dwaine Canova

Mm-Hmm.

Dwaine Canova

I have had so many people behind the scenes. Give me brilliant, brilliant insights, brilliant input. So think of me as a salad.

Dwaine Canova

Where.

Dwaine Canova

I've had all these hundreds of people. Give me feedback, give me critical comments, share with me their thoughts. And so even if you're not at the front of the room in a leadership role, you can have a significant impact on the leaders around you.

Dwaine Canova

And and if and in my mind, one of the key features of a terrific leader is that they're coachable. And so having them listen to you and so forth. So we're all responsible.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

And right now, leadership is one of those areas where we all feel there's a sort of a lack of it, if you will.

Patrick McCalla

Which is so interesting because I read a statistic about a year or two ago that a new book on leadership comes out every every eight hours on Amazon. So every eight hours a new book on leadership. So we have more information about leadership than ever in the history of humanity.

Patrick McCalla

But I think most of us would admit when we look around, we're going well, maybe lack good leadership more than ever in history as well. So. So we have a lot of information out there, but we're still we still have a long ways to go to.

Dwaine Canova

Well.

Dwaine Canova

Here's another anecdote to help explain part of that. Yeah, OK. Let me set the stage here. So imagine me speaking.

Dwaine Canova

With a.

Dwaine Canova

Group of sea level exact. It is, you know, chief executive officer, SEO, chief marketing officer, chief financial officer, speaking to 100 of them, and they're all from different companies. So I'm speaking to them and they know that I'm here to talk about exceptional executive teams.

Dwaine Canova

That's our focus is exceptional executive teams. So one of the things I do is say, Look, I want to get to know you and what want to kind of get a flavor for things. I said, I'm going to hold up a book.

Dwaine Canova

And.

Dwaine Canova

Hold up a book. And if you've read the book, raise your hand.

Dwaine Canova

So I.

Dwaine Canova

Hold up a Patrick Lindsay only book a John Maxwell, book a Simon Sinek book, and.

Patrick McCalla

They've all read them.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, so so I get 70 to 80, 90 hands, 70, 80, 90 hands on each one of them. Yeah. So then I ask, here's what would really be helpful? What are we here, if you don't mind, is if you could just share with us something that you really liked and one of these books, a single item that

Dwaine Canova

you really liked, what you liked and why you liked it, a couple of sentences. So I'll go around the room, get ten to 15 people. Here's what we like. I like this. I like that at Adobe really care.

Dwaine Canova

And they're always really good points that I ask this. OK, here's the next thing, and it can be anyone doesn't have to be someone that's already shared. But so for these things that you liked, just explained to us how you implemented them in your company and what was the impact?

Patrick McCalla

Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

So the issue is very few hands.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

And so the issue that we're really focused on is how do we get and build structure and discipline in a system in place so that we can apply all this great leadership teaching.

Patrick McCalla

Which goes back to what I mean? Again, we have a lot of information about leadership that's coming in. But what you're saying, the problem is we're not always implementing very much of it. We don't have a system in place to implement very much.

Dwaine Canova

We don't have a structure within which to do it.

Patrick McCalla

So I'm going to get there in a moment with you because I want you to unpack a little bit about what you do with that and why that's important. You actually mentioned some books there. Like I said, you are a student of leadership.

Patrick McCalla

You have been for a long time. Name a couple of your favorite books on leadership, minus the ones that are sitting next to us here because these are definitely the favorites. But but because these are authored by you, big names, some of your favorites and why they were some of your favorites, like if someone was listening and

Patrick McCalla

going, I want to read a couple of books on leadership. What would you recommend?

Dwaine Canova

Well, the first the first book I would read is the one minute manager.

Patrick McCalla

Mm-Hmm.

Dwaine Canova

It's a classic, has been around for a long time. The other one is the IMF. Michael Gerber.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

And the third one, oddly enough, is a book called The Goal. The Goal and the goal was written in the early nineties by a guy named Eliyahu Goldenrod. And the goal is the beginning of the teaching around continuous improvement.

Dwaine Canova

Hmm.

Dwaine Canova

And so that has those three books. I actually post them on my website as the three books that have impacted me the most.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

And so you'll see those things are around structure. Yeah, not so much about leadership principles, because leadership principles are things that you know, people can choose and select on their own. And that's perfectly appropriate, and all of them are terrific.

Dwaine Canova

But we have to apply them in a structured.

Patrick McCalla

Way, and this is what I've known. So a decade ago, when you were working with our team and you were coming in as a consultant, helping us when we met last week for lunch. This is what I've seen with you, is you always go back to implementation, which I value so much because most organizations, churches, businesses, everything

Patrick McCalla

when their leadership team goes off to a conference, everybody in the organization is going, Oh no, because they know what usually happens and come back with a bunch of ideas that they're going to say, Hey, we're going to start doing this, and it actually never goes anywhere.

Patrick McCalla

It's never really implemented. So you always go back to structure and implementation, don't you?

Dwaine Canova

Yes. Yeah, because there's so much just spectacular stuff, and we're so overwhelmed these days with so much information. So really, we begin from the point is, let's help you apply what you're already doing more effectively. And then from there you can do adjustments and continuous improvement.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, continuous.

Dwaine Canova

Improvement. So that's really kind of kind of what it is. Let's get the system in place and then then we can begin to think about next things.

Patrick McCalla

Last week we were having lunch together, and you said something to me that I thought was so good, I actually wrote it down on my notebook and I'm like, Oh, when I interview him, I'm going to ask about this.

Patrick McCalla

You said there's the number one style of leadership. You remember what you say?

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, OK. What did you say? Well, whatever one style of leadership is.

Dwaine Canova

Well, it's called the hand wave. Yeah. And the reason for that is one of the things early on you talking about leadership and everything they talk about, the word of delegating.

Dwaine Canova

What.

Dwaine Canova

I have found with the delegating is done with a hand wave. There's an issue that the leader doesn't necessarily want to deal.

Dwaine Canova

With, and.

Dwaine Canova

They'll wave their hand and say, Well, you take care of that or you go do this and you go do that. The result of that is siloing in organizations. So the chief marketing officer goes off, the chief financial officer goes off with the Hound hand wave, but we need to get them together and not go off with

Dwaine Canova

hand waves, but go off with a coordinated effort.

Patrick McCalla

Well, and that's why that stuck out to me. I think most people listening have worked in a place where that's what happens. They have the hand wave, so it starts at the top. You know, Hey, SEO, you go take care of this and then they go to whoever's idea you go, take care of this in the hand

Patrick McCalla

wave just kind of makes its way down. Yes, but actually, there's no system or structure in place that anybody really knows what's going on, then how it's being handled. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's one of the things that you always you bring up and really the core of you got all of these books sitting here that

Patrick McCalla

you've written over the years. But if you summed it all up, you would say that you're really about providing a structure for an executive leadership team. four. In fact, you used a an adjective to describe a good executive leadership team.

Patrick McCalla

What is it?

Dwaine Canova

The word is exceptional. We need to have exceptional executive teams, every organization that's kind of the movement, if you will. The focus is every organization deserves an exceptional executive team. The only way to become exceptional and unfortunately, a lot of the big examples we have of that are really in the sports world, the music world, the entertainment

Dwaine Canova

world, and we look at all of this exceptional talent out there. And even if we think of some of the I'm going to just take the talent shows, some people come on and gosh, they see just raw marvelous talent.

Dwaine Canova

And then they begin to work through weeks of structure, weeks of discipline, weeks of coaching. And so that beautiful voice becomes a magnificent performing voice. But it comes about with structure, with discipline and with coaching, and that's what we need for these executive teams or the bulk of the books here today that I've.

Dwaine Canova

Written are about how do.

Dwaine Canova

We train coaches to be coaches for exceptional executive teams?

Patrick McCalla

What do you think is like if you had to sum up what one of the main issues on a team becoming an exceptional leadership team, and I know this is probably an unfair question because there's probably a plethora of answers, but what would you say are one of the one of the biggest issues with leadership teams not

Patrick McCalla

being exceptional?

Dwaine Canova

Well.

Dwaine Canova

They really are not connected and aligned.

Dwaine Canova

Mhm.

Dwaine Canova

So each has their own part of the organization and they go do their part of the organization. What happens is at the operational level, then, because each has their own silo or kingdom, if you will, as those parts and they all have to connect and work with one another.

Dwaine Canova

Operationally, that's not necessarily good and capable of doing it because.

Dwaine Canova

The.

Dwaine Canova

The leaders of the different parts are not necessarily connected and aligned at the thinking level.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. So it isn't just as you move down in an organization or up in an organization, however you want to go. It's not just that they're not aligned, but you're even seeing the leadership team isn't always aligned in their thinking in there.

Patrick McCalla

So.

Dwaine Canova

Right? In fact, rarely are they. Yeah, it's rare that they are, because again, it's part of a hand wave where you go, take care of this. I give you a budget to go do that and you have a budget to go do this and you have a budget to go do that and we wave a hand and

Dwaine Canova

everybody goes off.

Patrick McCalla

So we're doing this is so good because, I mean, it's been proven statistically. It's been proven over and over and over again that that the employees, one of their number one frustrations is I don't think my boss even knows what I do.

Patrick McCalla

I don't think they know. But what you're saying is the problem's even bigger than that. It's not just that your boss doesn't understand. But if you're an executive leadership team, the person sitting next to you at the executive leadership team table, they probably don't even know what you're doing.

Patrick McCalla

Is that what you're saying? Yes.

Dwaine Canova

But how does that happen? How does that happen in such a pervasive way? And here's one of the ways that happens.

Dwaine Canova

Is.

Dwaine Canova

Let's assume we're in a casual environment where we're at. We're at a little party sharing wine or whatever. And I've done this now many, many times, and we have research that we're planning to put under way at our institute.

Dwaine Canova

But it's around this issue. We say, Look, just go around the room and then come back, and I'd like for you to point out to me.

Dwaine Canova

People.

Dwaine Canova

That you think really aren't. Eaters are have great leadership potential. And so I'll ask people to go do that, so they'll go round, will come back, will huddle up with chit chat.

Dwaine Canova

And.

Dwaine Canova

They'll describe to me people who will be good leaders. But here is how they describe them. People are attracted to them. They have personality. They have presence and they communicate well.

Patrick McCalla

I would guess that that I mean, those think if you ask almost anybody, they would start saying those are the top quality.

Dwaine Canova

Those are the top quality.

Patrick McCalla

Leaders. They can influence people, right?

Dwaine Canova

Absolutely. And so on the surface, that's really good. Mm-Hmm. But quite often, people with that personality profile.

Dwaine Canova

Are not good at details. Hmm.

Dwaine Canova

So there's now a lot of research out there that's getting more and more coverage that says.

Dwaine Canova

No, no.

Dwaine Canova

It's the quiet person off in the corner of thinking and thinking about how the parts should be working together. That's really the great leader, not necessarily the person that's great in front of a crowd.

Dwaine Canova

Mm hmm.

Dwaine Canova

So, so that's really kind of one of the new movement areas, and we think we're a part of that. That process is how do we help? How do we help put that structure so.

Dwaine Canova

We don't.

Dwaine Canova

Want to discount any of the value of personality presence in those communication skills? But what we want to add to that is structure, discipline, willingness to pay attention to the details and and then participate with with people in terms of that.

Dwaine Canova

So.

Patrick McCalla

You know, and here's the thing that's so neat about Toby, because I think if let's say someone listening is one of those influencer where they were like the first list that you gave. Mm hmm. And you walk through that, you're going, Oh man, they can move people.

Patrick McCalla

They can, they can get a crowd to come in. But even them, they should go, well, you know, you've seen it happen in the past where if you get a crowd to come, but you don't go anywhere. Nothing ever happens.

Patrick McCalla

A crowd starts dispersing. So you have to get some people around you that have the gifts and a system around you that have the gifts to make sure that whatever crowd you're bringing in, whatever you're promising that you can deliver, right?

Patrick McCalla

Because again, that's another complaint so many organizations over overpromise and under deliver, right? Yes.

Dwaine Canova

Yes, they do.

Dwaine Canova

And and.

Dwaine Canova

It all begins at the leadership level because the personality of the organization adjusts.

Dwaine Canova

To the.

Dwaine Canova

Personality of the collective of the executive team.

Patrick McCalla

OK, say that again, because that was really good. So that.

Dwaine Canova

So.

Dwaine Canova

When we think about an organization, it's the collective of of the executive.

Dwaine Canova

Team that.

Dwaine Canova

Shapes the personality of the organization because the person responsible for NAND for finance does one thing marketing another, operations another, sales, another.

Patrick McCalla

Trickling.

Dwaine Canova

So that becomes a collective that affects you, affects everyone. So if we don't really have that executive team connected and aligned at the thinking level, we are going to have dysfunction and and and distractions at the operational level.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, because everyone has their own leader. So it's kind of like we have a yeah, we have a federal.

Dwaine Canova

Government and then.

Dwaine Canova

We have governors of each of the.

Dwaine Canova

States.

Dwaine Canova

And we certainly can see plenty of examples of that. But this becomes one of those kind of illustrations for what that might look like.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, I so if I summed up what you're saying, you're saying as goes the leadership team, so goes the organization. Mm-Hmm. So if the leadership team isn't aligned, the organizations are going to be aligned. If the leadership team has has silos, the organizations can have silos at.

Patrick McCalla

The leadership team isn't getting what they said. They're going to get done, getting done. It seems to me the organization. So you one of the things that you've been doing as a student of leadership for years is you're trying to help these teams get aligned.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, you'll get them aligned. And that's the first step. And they only have to do four things. But by the way, leadership is different than management, and you would be fascinated at how few people can articulate ovaries.

Patrick McCalla

I mean, I've read books where people argue about like, what the difference? So how would you define the difference?

Dwaine Canova

Well, it's really interesting because leadership is about direction, it's about strategy. It's about creating culture. It's about creating an environment.

Dwaine Canova

Within.

Dwaine Canova

Which all of the operational activities happen. That's the leadership requirement. The management piece is setting goals and pressing people to exceed the goals. That's really a management task.

Patrick McCalla

And would you say a lot of positions have to do both? Well.

Dwaine Canova

Everyone at the sea level.

Dwaine Canova

Has to do both. OK.

Dwaine Canova

So we have the same individual doing both. But guess here, here's another the issue see, the leadership.

Dwaine Canova

Piece requires.

Dwaine Canova

You think at a conceptual and future level, the management has you focus at a present and an action level.

Patrick McCalla

And my guess is because of the tyranny of the urgent that most teams get tied up in the that the immediate and they're no longer thinking and dreaming of the future.

Dwaine Canova

So we really end up talking about culture, but we really don't. Have a culture that gets infused and supported and reinforced and celebrated so that we have we have the management team and we have this and again, same individual because the same individual has to do the leadership role and they have to do the management role.

Dwaine Canova

And we talk about in this way the drug of choice at the sea level. Part of the organization is busyness. In fact, when they have their weekly meeting, it's about what we're going to do this week. And so they.

Patrick McCalla

Can eight-week in a pot because I don't want anybody to miss what you just said, that is so that is gold right there. The drug of choice for most leadership teams is business.

Dwaine Canova

And at the operational level, that's perfect. Let's just stay busy and let's go do these things. But so if I may, let's say I'm a supervisor of a team of eight people. I'm still thinking a little bit about future stuff.

Dwaine Canova

I've got to do this to the team, that team and so forth, but I'm being assessed and evaluated on what I produce for the day. And if we take that and scale that up to the top, that same thinking exists.

Dwaine Canova

So if I'm at a sea level, I'm at the top level of an organization. I need to be spending ten to 20% of my time on leadership issues. And 80 to 90% of my time on management.

Patrick McCalla

And when you say like that, that 10% on leadership issues you're talking about, you know, creating culture, casting vision, thinking about the future, that's what you're talking about, right?

Dwaine Canova

Yes, we'll think about this in our system. We actually ask folks to do four things. first of all, we want to connect and align the executive team at the thinking level. What are you thinking about? And so then as a coach?

Dwaine Canova

And then we collaborate as a team. This is what you are thinking. Or shouldn't you also be thinking about this?

Dwaine Canova

Mm-Hmm.

Dwaine Canova

And then as a peer group.

Dwaine Canova

You see peer.

Dwaine Canova

Influence is significantly more impactful than superior influence. So we have to get this collaborate.

Patrick McCalla

What do you mean by that? Well.

Dwaine Canova

For example, if I'm the top person? Yeah, and I tell you what to do. That's one thing. Yeah, but as a peer.

Patrick McCalla

Because I have to do what you told me, you have to do.

Dwaine Canova

It as a peer. That's where I need respect. That's where I want to engage with it. So peer influence is superior or more impactful, if you will, than a superior kind of influence. So we need to create an environment in which there is a peer engagement to do that.

Dwaine Canova

We have to have visibility to the thinking. And once we have visibility to the thinking, then we can begin to celebrate our successes and our progress together. Yeah. So it's peer, it's visibility and it's celebration that we need to have at the executive level.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, around leadership issues, not just the management issues.

Patrick McCalla

Again, let me just step outside of the conversation about leadership for just a moment because I think this does fit with just life, everyday life too. Because if I took the principles that you're talking about, you're saying that most executive leadership teams get so tied up in the tyranny of the urgent that they're no longer doing that

Patrick McCalla

. What you're saying about 10% of their time, they should be doing like culture, vision, future. Isn't that true of what we do with our lives a lot of times? So to think it's so tied up in, I got you get up, you go to work, you come home, you eat dinner, watching TV, you go to bed, you

Patrick McCalla

get up the next day and go and you never stop to go. Where do I want to be a two years from now? Yes. What? What, what kind of values do I believe in my living those values, right?

Patrick McCalla

And that's that's what leadership is doing.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, yeah.

Dwaine Canova

That's what the executive teams are doing. But it's not leadership. It's management because so when, for example, most weekly meetings, what the executive team sits around and talks about is what they're going to accomplish this week or next week.

Dwaine Canova

So it's about a to do list because we all like a to do list. We love checking off. This is completed that's completed next week. So one of the one of the key principles in this is that let's assume that I have something going on and I need to say I need to do that differently.

Dwaine Canova

That needs that's a fix that I need to do. Well, I have to begin thinking I have to begin asking questions. I have to begin exploring, what about this? What about that radar? That is frustrating for most people.

Dwaine Canova

But if I say, OK, I'm going to go do this and by noon, I'm going to have this done, that's gratifying. So busyness is a short shot to gratification. Thinking about something is a quick shot to frustration. And so people will avoid the thinking piece.

Dwaine Canova

Just because of that one is one is frustrating and the other is gratifying.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. Do you do you feel like you get a lot of pushback when you come into organizations and you start talking to him about this? Or are they usually welcoming you with open arms? Because I would guess that most organizations are so busy when you start talking about adding something to, they just go, This is one more

Patrick McCalla

thing we don't have time to do.

Dwaine Canova

Well, first of all, we don't we don't start off talking about that early in the process. We start off at a completely different place with this, and we start off with helping people get to clarity about the things they should be doing.

Dwaine Canova

So here's a very interesting thing.

Patrick McCalla

But OK, so. And this is what I love talking with you, because there's so many. It all goes to life principles to who who listening right now wouldn't want more clarity in our life on what are the most important things for them to do.

Patrick McCalla

You talk about an executive leadership team of an organization, but every individual is the same thing. Like Take some, create some space in your life where you can step back and figure out what's really valuable, right? But you're so you're helping teams do that.

Patrick McCalla

Go ahead. Yes.

Dwaine Canova

No. I just think this whole issue of, you know, this this idea of thinking, getting ourselves prepared, spending some time devoted time to willingly being frustrated to help work through things. I have a responsibility.

Dwaine Canova

As a as a.

Dwaine Canova

Top level leader in an organization. I have a responsibility.

Dwaine Canova

For.

Dwaine Canova

Helping really embed a supportive culture. I need to build an environment within which people connect and work and develop with one another. And we believe there are four things there the four basic things that have to occur for that to happen in organization to be realized.

Dwaine Canova

The first is we have to have a structured process that keeps the executive team connected and aligned at the thinking level, at the leadership level.

Patrick McCalla

And you keep saying that so. So there's a process that helps them stay connected at the thinking level. That's an important thing that you're saying.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, well, what we've done is we've actually digitized that digitally transformed how that gets done. And what I mean by that is this so we're all comfortable. With the fact that we would have a technology that's foundational for our accounting system, right?

Dwaine Canova

We would we're comfortable that we have a technology that's right there for our sale system, what we've built a technology for the executive leadership team. So they start using the tools and it just.

Dwaine Canova

Takes a.

Dwaine Canova

Couple hours a week, actually two to three hours a week, and they will begin to put these four things in.

Patrick McCalla

Place. They can act. So that was one of them. Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

So the connecting line, the other one is this imagine going to an executive, let's say, the principal of an organization and asking this question. So how many strategic initiatives are underway in your organization? And of course, they don't have an answer for that.

Dwaine Canova

Mm hmm.

Dwaine Canova

So one of the things we have is another tool that says, OK, let's create a process by which we create and assess and evaluate and share strategic initiatives. And we engage a number of people in the organization in that process.

Dwaine Canova

Now everyone knows where we're going.

Dwaine Canova

Mm-Hmm. And they know what.

Dwaine Canova

Our priorities are. So if we have to change a priority, there was, of course, I understand why they're doing that. We've got this, we've got that. So changing directions or changing priorities on a strategic initiative becomes.

Dwaine Canova

Simple.

Dwaine Canova

Because everybody is already a part of the process. Mm-Hmm. So that's the second one strategic initiatives. The third one is this Imagine going in and speaking with an executive team and say, Is this organization customer focused?

Patrick McCalla

And everyone wants to say yes?

Dwaine Canova

Of course, yes. Absolutely. So I say, well, show us the document or the process or the system.

Dwaine Canova

That.

Dwaine Canova

Assures that the whole organization is customer focused in a way that leverages what each one brings to the course.

Patrick McCalla

But very few people can pull one out.

Dwaine Canova

They don't have what they might have a sales cycle.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

They might have a customer support process. But tying it all together from how do we create awareness? How do we do a connection? How do we engage? How do we support? How do we grow? How do we.

Dwaine Canova

Develop? All of that.

Dwaine Canova

Full lifecycle.

Dwaine Canova

Is.

Dwaine Canova

Not usually in a coordinated system. So customer focus will be the third.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, the.

Dwaine Canova

fourth one is this is and of course, this is one of the long term maxims that.

Dwaine Canova

Kind.

Dwaine Canova

Of sounds like management, but I'll show you how it connects with the leadership piece because by.

Dwaine Canova

The way.

Dwaine Canova

All leadership has to connect with the management process so that it connects well with the operational process. But what goes on at the leadership level is what makes all of that more more effective. So imagine this everyone. Almost everyone agrees with this maxim, which is that if you're going to manage something you have to measure, it is

Dwaine Canova

not comfortable.

Patrick McCalla

Well, perfect will comfort. That's what we usually hear. So now we can't manage it if you can't measure it the other way that some people would say it. Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

So we don't do this early on in our relationship with the client. We build up to have this kind of conversation, but we'll say, Listen, so tell me how many reports are there in your organization, by the way?

Dwaine Canova

What do you think it costs you to create those reports?

Patrick McCalla

And again, there's probably most don't know.

Dwaine Canova

And let me ask you this. How well are those reports being used? So what leadership puts in place is this process of creating reports, assessing reports, engaging with reports, adjusting reports, going back to that continuous improvement thought? Right.

Dwaine Canova

So here is here's a process that I've used for now a few decades is go to someone who is creating a report that I know others use and they might send the report out goes to 50 people, let's say.

Dwaine Canova

Mm-Hmm. So I say, look.

Dwaine Canova

Please do not send out that report. And so they'll do that, they'll not send the report and say, here's what I'd like from you, please. I want to know who calls you first. I want to know their name, the date and the time they call.

Dwaine Canova

I want to know for the next.

Patrick McCalla

Who missed this.

Dwaine Canova

And who missed the report.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

And in their comments, just give me their name the time they call their comments. And so let's go through that. And so 24 hours later and then by the way, when they call and complain, send them the report immediately, of course.

Dwaine Canova

But then what we find out is that we've got 50 people that are receiving the report, but we only have ten who called within two days. Yeah. And so we need to talk with both groups, though those that wanted the report, why and how they use it.

Dwaine Canova

Let's go talk to those that didn't and whether or not, because what we're going to.

Dwaine Canova

Find.

Dwaine Canova

Is that a supporting report or an adjustment to the report is being made, but no one else knows about it.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. Which again, is the lack of alignment, right?

Dwaine Canova

So the four principles now we have to be connected line at the thinking level. second, we have to have clarity for everyone around the strategic initiatives. third is we have to have clarity about what it means to be customer focused, customer focused and how everyone participates.

Dwaine Canova

And by the.

Dwaine Canova

Way, I'm saying customer focus, but it's really stakeholder. It's we've got to do the same thing for employees. We've got to do the same thing for different categories of customers. We have to do the same thing for our vendors, our alliance partners.

Dwaine Canova

We have to.

Dwaine Canova

Have clarity about what. And then of course, the fourth is, are we using our reporting and is our reporting correct for us? And if leadership will will participate and provide the leadership in that?

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, yeah.

Dwaine Canova

In those four things, it will transform the leadership. And that's a way to become an exceptional executive team.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. Well, and here's the thing that I've learned from this, Duane. So again, you worked with our team over a decade ago and like I said, and you've actually taken these tools a lot farther than when when we were working together.

Patrick McCalla

But still, I saw at a practical level how well this worked. I mean, our team understood what we were thinking. We understood who was doing what we were putting the I mean, it was it was it was magnificent.

Patrick McCalla

So I just can't speak highly enough of it. Well, let's let me land a plane here and talk just briefly about this. I think it was probably 40 some years ago that Peter Drucker used that quote that culture, each strategy for breakfast or something like that, right?

Patrick McCalla

And and I know you've brought up the word culture numerous times. I've seen that that culture man, it is key. Key key. But what you're what, what you're saying is that a key part of a culture, if an organization is going to have a healthy culture, is this alignment?

Dwaine Canova

Yeah. It starts with alignment.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, because.

Dwaine Canova

The culture is is certainly a value system, right? There's got to have a value system. But also our lexicon. What kind of words do we use starts to have a big impact that affects our culture.

Patrick McCalla

So if you could go in, I'm just going to pause for a second here and say, if you went into an organization and you could just walk around, no one knew who you were and you could just walk around an organization for a few weeks, you would start writing down some key words that you're that you're hearing

Patrick McCalla

used again and again, and you would say, whether they like it or not, that's part of their culture. Yes.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, that's a part of their culture. The other the other one is our interactions. How many organizations have a stated professional engagement standards? How do we deal with one another? How do we speak with one another? What do we do anticipating that we're going to speak with someone, particularly if we're going to have something that could create

Dwaine Canova

conflict? Those all need to be fairly well clarified. That doesn't mean they don't get adjusted and changed. Everything gets adjusted and changed because we can do it better. But there needs to be a deliberate, clarified, defined attention to those things.

Dwaine Canova

So culture.

Dwaine Canova

Frankly, so much of what I hear about culture and what I see described as culture in that in the general news world, if you will, is is fluff. Yeah. And what I mean by fluff, for example, here's culture.

Dwaine Canova

Let's assume it's a product that's very popular to a particular.

Dwaine Canova

Category.

Dwaine Canova

Of the population. Well, if people work there, they talk about what a great culture it is. And part of the great culture is, I love to go off of work, speak with my friends and with other people and tell them that I work for that country.

Dwaine Canova

That company. Yeah, so they're proud of the company in the company's position in the world.

Patrick McCalla

So therefore, it has a good culture, but it's really because it's they're selling a lot of years.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah. And there are there are many very successful companies that have just these toxic, toxic places. But people go there and work and they're happy to do it because they can go to their friends and say, I work for.

Dwaine Canova

And that. Creates its own sense of separateness, if you will, or accomplishment for a particular person. And it doesn't mean that any of that isn't correct, but it still doesn't mean that what we have embedded in that organization is a real supportive.

Dwaine Canova

And.

Dwaine Canova

A real building and developing a culture.

Patrick McCalla

Well, Duane, thanks so much again. I can't speak highly enough of the tools that you have have come up with the books that you have, the tools that you taught me. I mean, it's helped tremendously. And again, to kind of land the plane on this.

Patrick McCalla

I think it's not just about leadership. If we as as we as individuals, every listener, if if we as individuals would take some of the things that you talked about and make sure that we're not so busy in our life or if you're part of an executive team that you're not so busy that you don't take some

Patrick McCalla

time and pause and think through vision and core values, things that really matter, right? Right? Yeah. And then the other thing that I love that I just can't speak highly enough is the implementation part. I mean, I just turned 50 this year, so I'm catching you, by the way, I'm right behind you.

Patrick McCalla

So I just turned 50 this year, and I can't tell you the number of times that I see, not just places that I've worked, but just looking around and seeing where there's a lot of talk about. This is what we do.

Patrick McCalla

But when you dig in, you're going to get, but you're not implementing it, you're not actually doing it. Yes, and that's what your team does. That's what you do. Is you're saying, we want to say this isn't just talk.

Patrick McCalla

We're actually implementing this. We're doing this.

Dwaine Canova

Yes. Yeah.

Patrick McCalla

Well, Dwayne, we always finish with this. It's a fun way to finish. It's ironic because we call this no gray areas, and I'm going to ask you to lie to me. So give us two truths and a lie.

Patrick McCalla

So, you know, I've known you for over a decade to see if you can stump me, but the audiences listen to you for a little over 30 minutes. Let's see if you can stump them two truths and a lie.

Dwaine Canova

one is that I've I've been blessed with a lot of spectacular fun things to do in life. That's one thing. second, I'm really committed, Jesus follower. And the third one is.

Dwaine Canova

I'm.

Dwaine Canova

Really sort of laid back and casual about life.

Patrick McCalla

OK, so you've had you've had a lot of amazing opportunities. You're committed, Jesus follower, and you're laid back. I know the second one is true. I know you like and I know you're not going to trick me that one for you.

Patrick McCalla

You're not going to fool me. Is that one? That one's true? I think you've had a. How are you? I just dumped me here because you are especially anybody is talking about leadership or you wouldn't you'd think like you're a type, a personality.

Patrick McCalla

Right? I think you've had a lot of opportunities in life to I'm going to go with number three is the lie. You're not laid.

Dwaine Canova

Back or I'm not laid back. No, no, no, no.

Dwaine Canova

Here I.

Dwaine Canova

Am at this young age, and when I say young age, it's really.

Dwaine Canova

I'm.

Dwaine Canova

In my third childhood here. But by calculation here, but I'm just as intense. I'm I'm still a 50 to 60 hour a week person, having about as much fun as I can have.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

My wife has been putting up with it for 56 years. In fact, she's a significant supporter of it. Yeah, and we have a lot of fun. We get to do a lot of things and so it's just a lot to be thankful for.

Patrick McCalla

That's true. I got it right, but I should have known immediately because yes, most people that are new stage of life have retired a long time ago, and they're just relaxing and and you're still trying to improve business and organization well.

Dwaine Canova

Patrick McCalla

Dwaine Canova

Countries, five countries, and we really had a terrific time doing it. And she's very much the operations person. I'm more the business development person, but I found that I really got excited about the business development side, of course, was easy for me.

Dwaine Canova

But the operational piece to watch her and watch her work with her.

Dwaine Canova

Team.

Dwaine Canova

Because she would always have eight to ten people reporting to her and managing, you know, thousands of people around the world. And just to see her, she has been kind of my model.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah.

Dwaine Canova

For what I think an exceptional executive is about. And that's so I've been able to learn from her.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. Well, Dwayne, thanks so much for taking your time. Really appreciate you and I appreciate your friendship and your mentorship in my life. So thank you.

Dwaine Canova

Thank you. I'm just thankful for our friendship and just looking forward to all the fun new things ahead.

Dwaine Canova

Yeah, yeah.

Host

Thank you. Thanks for listening to the No Gray Areas podcast to dove deeper into the story. Be sure to subscribe. Follow us on social media and check out no gray areas. Dot com.