Gary Nichols' Journey Through Addiction and Redemption

In this compelling episode of 'Curious Goldfish,' host Jason English engages in a deep conversation with musician Gary Nichols, who candidly shares his harrowing journey through severe drug addiction, despite reaching career highs like a Grammy win with his band, the Steeldrivers. Nichols recounts hitting rock bottom multiple times, his struggles with heroin, meth, and fentanyl, and the life-changing moment he decided to surrender and seek recovery, partly inspired by a movie he watched in jail. The episode also explores Nichols' musical career, his replacement of Chris Stapleton in the Steeldrivers, the therapeutic nature of his songwriting process during and after addiction, and his poignant reflection on personal relationships and fatherhood. Nichols' story is a testament to the power of resilience, the possibility of renewal, and the unending pursuit of redemption through music and self-reflection.

00:00 The Depths of Addiction: Gary's Story

01:06 Introducing Curious Goldfish: A Musical Journey

01:45 Navigating Life's Dark Forests: Insights and Inspirations

02:44 Gary Nichols: From Grammy Glory to Gritty Survival

06:16 Muscle Shoals: The Heartbeat of American Music

15:14 The Fall and Rise of a Musician: Gary's Path to Redemption

29:12 A Glimmer of Hope: Finding the Way Out of Darkness

32:36 A Life-Changing Moment in Jail

33:18 The Impact of a Movie on a Dark Path

34:18 A Sudden Shift: From Despair to Hope

34:52 Courtroom Surprise: A Second Chance

35:43 The Struggle with Sobriety and Self-Reflection

36:28 Finding Redemption Through Music

42:23 The Journey of Songwriting: From Darkness to Light

47:17 Navigating Love, Life, and Music Post-Recovery

50:23 Reflections on Heartbreak and Moving Forward

01:02:00 Curiosity and Future Aspirations

So I always tell people, it's like, Oh, you know, Gary hit

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rock bottom every time I hit rock

bottom, I had dynamite in my pocket.

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You know, there's always another

bottom, I think, until you're

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gone.

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I came home in April of 2021

after eight months in treatment.

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I locked myself in my room for three

days because I was scared to leave.

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I didn't go to a meeting, didn't talk with

anyone, just tried to white knuckle it.

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And the first place I went was

to get a pack of cigarettes.

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Three days later and the first person

I saw was a dude I used to get high

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with and as soon as he asked me I

said, yes, I was on a bender for a

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few days I went from meth to heroin

to fentanyl within 30 minutes of

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each other and Three days later.

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I'm dead overdosed again in a hospital

If there is a place called hell

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and a place called heaven, I truly

believe that I was on my way to hell.

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Jason English (Host): Welcome to

curious goldfish, a podcast community

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where music and curiosity come together

through interesting conversations

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with the music makers of our world.

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I'm your host, Jason English.

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You can find curious goldfish and all the

major podcast and social media platforms.

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And of course, we have all of

our content on our website.

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Curious goldfish.

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com.

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We all at one point or another

in our lives experience setback,

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challenge, loss, grief, or struggle.

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These periods are sometimes referred

to as valleys or deserts where you just

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can't seem to find water in the way up

to the mountain top seems impossible.

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Ted Lasso, the main character in

the television series, Ted Lasso,

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is a fictional soccer coach.

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Demonstrating empathetic leadership

during an extended winless streak,

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Coach Lasso compared these seasons

of struggle to a dark forest.

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Listen, I don't care what our record

is, but I hear the chatter, people

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saying there's something wrong with us.

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Not the way I see it.

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Okay?

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Now, these next few

months might be tricky.

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But that's just because we're

going through our dark forest.

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Fairy tales do not start, nor

do they end, in the dark forest.

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That son of a gun always shows up

smack dab in the middle of a story.

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But it will all work out.

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Now, it may not work out how you think

it will, or how you hope it does,

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but believe me, it will all work out.

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Jason English (Host): Few people

have experienced a forest as dark

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as what musician Gary Nichols has.

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Even after Gary found himself

on top of a mountain when he and

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his band, the steel drivers won a

Grammy for their bluegrass album.

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The muscle shoals recordings seven

years ago in my conversation with him

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for the podcast, Gary talks about how

his dark forest kept getting darker and

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darker as a result of severe addiction

to heroin and other lethal drugs.

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Imagine being approached by a

successful band to replace Chris

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Stapleton as his lead singer.

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Imagine winning a Grammy with that

band on your second album after it was

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recorded in and named after your hometown

of legendary Muscle Shoals, Alabama.

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Imagine being on the verge of financial

freedom and fame only to lose it all

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while destroying nearly all of the

meaningful relationships around you.

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Almost dying and serving

time in prison to boot.

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That was Gary Nichols Dark Forest.

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But as Ted Lasso asserts,

fairy tales don't begin nor

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do they end in a dark forest.

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For Gary, the shimmer of light through

the branches came through watching, in

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a jail cell of all places, a remake of a

classic music film starring Bradley Cooper

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and Lady Gaga called A Star Is Born.

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You might have seen it

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Tell me something, boy.

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Aren't you tired trying to fill that void?

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Or do you need more?

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Ain't it hard keeping it so hardcore?

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Is that me?

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That's you.

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You just wrote that now?

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Yeah.

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That's pretty good.

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Jason English (Host): Lady Gaga

sings about keeping it hardcore.

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And that about sums up Gary Nichols

journey through the dark forest.

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But thanks to a viewing of A Star is

Born while in jail, and thanks to an

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incredible support system at Ivy Manor

at the Shoals, an all inclusive recording

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studio in Sheffield, Alabama, Gary

is making his way out of the forest.

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On a sunbathed spring day.

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Gary talks about this journey

in incredible intimate detail.

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He talks about his hometown and

talks about his plans to release

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new music later this year.

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He also sings two new songs.

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First, one of hope and inspiration

called learning how to walk again.

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A brilliant analogy to him starting

over with baby steps on his

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road to recovery from addiction.

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The second song is absolutely incredible.

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It's called the devil's blood.

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It's a step by step analysis of

shooting up and the lessons learned

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that people of all ages and backgrounds

should heed with every note and lyric.

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Gary might be the most talented

musician I've ever spent time

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with and it's still incredibly

sad he almost threw it all away.

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I can only pray that blue skies

are ahead for him and his family,

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and the world is ready to welcome

him back for his new chapter.

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You might say he is a star reborn.

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Here's Gary Nichols of

Muscle Shoals, Alabama.

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Let's dive in.

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Hey, Gary.

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So nice to meet you.

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Gary Nichols: Hey, Jay.

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It's good to meet you as well.

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Jason English (Host):

appreciate, appreciate your time.

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Um, over here at Ivy Manor, outside of

Ivy Manor here in Muscle Shoals, Alabama.

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It's a beautiful day.

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Spring.

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Gary Nichols: Gorgeous.

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Perfect day, actually.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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You're from here.

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Gary Nichols: Born and raised, um, born

just about a mile and a half down the

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road at Helen Keller Hospital and spent

most of my life in Florence, which is

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part of the Quad Cities that make up the

area that everyone calls Muscle Shoals

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Jason English (Host): So Muscle

Shoals is famous now for a lot of

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the music stuff, but I didn't realize

Helen Keller was, was from here.

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Gary Nichols: yeah Helen Keller, W.C.

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Handy, Sam Phillips who was, you know,

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Jason English (Host): Memphis.

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Gary Nichols: Memphis discovered Elvis

and Johnny Cash and Jerry Lee and others.

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Um, yeah, this town's kind of,

it's got a lot, these towns

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have a lot going for them.

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But, uh, and a lot of that,

is, has to do with music.

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Jason English (Host): So can you,

uh, can you settle the argument

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or the debate around the origin

of the name once and for all?

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Gary Nichols: for all?

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I can't settle anything, but I'll

tell you what, I'll tell you what

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I've, what I've, what I've heard.

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The first one I heard, believe it or not,

was, um, um, if you look at, if you're

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looking at a map and you see the Tennessee

River and the way it's shaped here in

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the Lauderdale County area and how it

makes a, a, a, a turn toward the north,

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uh, northwest, kind of looks like a flex.

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Right there in that bend of the river

looks like an arm making a muscle.

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Jason English (Host): Got it.

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Yep.

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Gary Nichols: But I'm from Alabama

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Jason English (Host): and

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Gary Nichols: I know that there were

people, diving for mussels back in

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the day and somebody just misspelled

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it.

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Jason English (Host):

somebody just misspelled

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Gary Nichols: I'm pretty

sure that's what happened.

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that's what happened.

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I mean, you know.

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Probably one of my, one of my

ancestors, but that's okay.

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Jason English (Host): The Nichols

family runs deep in Alabama, right?

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For that.

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Gary Nichols: that we

are responsible for that.

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The Nichols family does run deep

and I do think that we should take

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credit for misspelling, uh, Muscle

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misspelling.

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but all jokes aside, the way I've always

viewed it was my first, um, my first

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idea of Muscle Shoals with the, the, the.

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the

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bend in the river and and then the the

um the natives calling this this area

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the singing river and then i think

that we do kind of put a little bit

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of muscle into the music little little

soul it's um it's a different vibe so

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I

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think muscle shoals to me just stands

for just strong music with a lot of soul

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Jason English (Host): How early in

your life did you realize the, uh,

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the music component of the area?

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I mean, because I think you said

your mom at one point, Before you

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were one gave you a ukulele, right?

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As a gift.

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And, uh, you're in a band at six.

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So, but obviously music was part of, it

was that part of your family heritage.

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And how early did you know that,

you know, muscle shoals was, that

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was kind of in the, in the DNA here.

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Gary Nichols: Well, it was probably

a long time before I realized the

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weight it carried and what it meant.

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Um, I just knew that I grew up around

people that were playing and singing,

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playing music and singing songs.

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My uncle being one of them, um, and he

lived with us, when I was really young.

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and he was singing all the

old Muscle Shoals music,

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from the Walt Aldridge songs.

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to, Otis Redding.

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And then hit one of his best

friends was Travis Womack, um, who

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was doing a lot of sessions here,

you know, transplant from Memphis.

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so I just kind of grew up listening

to it and sitting in at a young age,

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playing in bands, as a, as a child.

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And then, I don't think it was till I

was probably 18 or 19 years old when,

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I really realized how impactful that

these men and women I'd spent most of

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my life uh, had been in the music Um,

and then I was 19 years old and I was a

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cocky guy and I just thought, you know,

it just kind of, it just kind of, Just

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like, Oh yeah, well, I'm one of them.

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You know what I mean?

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And that just kind of became my mentality.

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And I just just sunk my teeth into that.

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probably in my thirties up until now,

when I really have the reverence and

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the respect for it and really, uh,

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extreme

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amount of gratitude for being

able to grow up with those people.

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But, um, Yeah, it's, it's,

it's pretty wild to, to be

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born and raised in this stuff.

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Jason English (Host):

I met your son earlier.

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He's young, do you think he gets it?.

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I

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Gary Nichols: It's a good question.

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I think so.

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I don't know though.

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It's hard to say because at his

age, I mean, again, it was just,

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I'd been conditioned for this

and okay, this is what you do and

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this I didn't know anything else.

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I had no, not enough separation

from it to, to, to have the respect.

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He probably has more respect

for it than I did because he

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just does overall, you know?

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Um, but yeah, you know, he

grew up with it so close.

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I mean, he was in the car seat behind me

singing and listening to all the new songs

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and all the stuff that was coming out.

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And, um, so he picked up on

it a lot quicker than I did.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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I mean it what an opportunity for him

to, to grow up in with you, you know, as

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a, as a, as a father and in this area.

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And, uh, I think he's an intern

here at the, at the studio, right.

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So just the by osmosis.

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And I, he's in a band, right?

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He's

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Gary Nichols: He's a monster.

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He's a great guitarist.

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I mean, I look up to him

so much as a songwriter.

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Uh, he sings, he's got the it thing

on stage, whatever that is, he got it.

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Uh, and he's yeah, he interns here,

I mean he's got a band that he books

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He's a whole little entrepreneur, And

on the dean's list at the college.

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I was not.

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Jason English (Host): on that's

all right, back to Muscle a lot of

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people obviously have watched the

documentary, about the studios and stuff.

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And I remember in that they make

reference to, you know, sort of the,

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the mystique and the energy of the

river and the dirt, having this sort

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of power and, uh, and, and presence,

uh, that comes through in the music.

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what is it to you, uh, having grown

up here and being born here and

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what, what, what is it, why do people

flock here to, to make records?

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It's kind of weird, right?

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Cause it, you know, there's a

lot of rivers in the country,

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Gary Nichols: Yeah.

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know, So,

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Jason English (Host): what is it?

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Gary Nichols: I don't know.

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So, Either some, either they, either

Rick Hall and, and Jerry Wexler and

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the folks got really, really, really

lucky and that law of attraction

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brought everyone else in, or billions

of years ago when this thing took off,

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Jason English (Host): Right.

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Gary Nichols: a bunch of stuff

stuck together and landed in Muscle

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Shoals and it got stuck in the soil

and the dirt, the spirit of music

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and the spirit of, uh, Honesty and,

vulnerability, landed right here in

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the river and then we drink from it.

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I mean, maybe that's it.

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I don't know.

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That's kind of frou

frou sounding, I guess.

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But, um, for me, what it seems like

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is

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David Hood, Jimmy Johnson, Roger Hawkins,

and Barry Beckett, and Rick Hall, and Sam

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Phillips, and Jerry Wexler, and others

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started something pretty magical.

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And they were so unselfish with it.

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They continued to give it

to us, the next generation.

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And we kept it going,

we kept spreading it.

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In some towns, everybody wants

to keep it to themselves.

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Stay out of my sandbox.

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This is my sandbox.

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And down here, we share it and

give it to the next generation.

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I also think that's attractive.

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I think that brings people to town

because we really just want to create art.

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create You know?

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Um,

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I love that.

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Answer your question.

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Jason English (Host): no it's

great, have you lived in a lot

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of other places or mostly here??

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Uh, mostly here.

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Gary Nichols: Uh, mostly here.

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I mean, I've traveled so much.

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I mean, I'm I am back and forth

between here and Nashville as much,

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and, and I used to tell people

I'd never moved because I knew all

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the back roads and all the cops.

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roads.

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and I still, even after I got to know

the cops, very, the police officers very

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well in this town, I still chose to stay

here because it's just a great community.

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People, people love each other.

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It's a great place to raise a family.

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the industry's pretty pretty

happening here with songwriting

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and, and record production and, and,

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Yeah, it's just, it's a great place.

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I suggest if you're, if you're looking

for a home, by the way, and you're

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in the music industry and you feel

like, you know, this town to this town

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to this town is just too hard to get

into it, be seen or be recognized.

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If you've got it, bring it to town.

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We want to hear it.

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Jason English (Host): down and run it.

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Yeah, that's good.

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Uh, so what, describe your, uh,

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How you got involved with Ivy,

Ivy Manor and what's your, what's

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your role in the, in the group?

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Cause it's a, it's kind of a

diverse team of people, right?

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Gary Nichols: Well, the role changes.

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I guess I'll start with how I got here.

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And this is a little

bit of a story that may

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lead into another story.

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so, you know, I was with, I had a

long career, started playing music

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at, at, you know, five or six years

old, professionally, you know,

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playing for money and whatnot.

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Um, that led me to, uh, To a whole

other bunch of cool things, including a

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record deal with Universal Records, in

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left that label and came back to

Muscle Shoals writing songs and

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producing records and I got a phone

call, That a band called the Steel

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Drivers was looking for a singer.

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I didn't know much about the band, but

once I heard that Chris Stapleton had

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been the former lead singer and I had

written with Chris and had an immense

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amount of respect for him, uh, asked

Mike Henderson to send me the record.

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Long story short, I'm in

that band for a while.

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And in 2017, my whole world comes

apart after winning a Grammy, by

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the way, with the Steel Drivers.

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I was in the throes of opiate addiction.

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I was playing doctor.

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I was in and out of rehab, in and out

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I didn't do anything except

stay high, stay in jail, stay

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in a hospital, overdose, all the

things that go along with that.

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So when I get out of jail for the

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one with

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a debit card from the Lauderdale

County Detention Center with what

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money I had left, which was 2.

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Which was not even enough to swipe

the damn card and an eviction notice.

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And

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a marriage that was completely

in shambles, by the way.

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So I get out, and I'm just

trying at this point not to die.

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Right?

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I'm like, I just don't want to die.

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And if I stay here, I'm either going

to die, or I'm going to beat up

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somebody really bad or something.

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Because our relationship

had completely changed.

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We're still married, but she's

got something else going on.

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I'm, I'm complete addict.

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So I leave her, I leave that apartment

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car for a little while, not getting high.

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Um, and I don't know while I was, while

I was trying to get over that situation,

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which was my, my wife with another man,

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I decided to go what I don't know if

we can say that on this, but I think

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some of the young kids call it a ho

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Jason English (Host): a hoe face.

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Gary Nichols: And I was kind

of just in this, this, um,

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mode where

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I was trying to pick my ego up and

anything that shined or shimmered and

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smiled, you know, I would entertain.

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And I met this really sweet girl,

um, who ended up bringing me over

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to Ivy Manor and, She was here with

her boyfriend, by the way, so we

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weren't here together, but she brought

me over here, and I met Michael,

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Jason English (Host): met

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Gary Nichols: and I started hanging out

here, and, um, it was really bizarre.

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Uh, Michael knew I'd been to jail

and, and didn't, didn't shy away from

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altercations if needed to be, and he

had a, a guest in the, in the, um,

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the cottage house that he wanted out.

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So he called me one Sunday because

he wasn't here and said hey, I

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need you to go put this this guy

out of my house He will not leave

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Jason English (Host): of my house.

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So I

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Gary Nichols: So I came out he

probably called me in for a hit

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Jason English (Host): for a hit.

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So

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Gary Nichols: I came in and politely

asked the gentleman to leave and he did

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there was no no altercation It was it

went very well Couple of weeks later.

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I was living here A month after

that, I started making my record

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here and I came back to life.

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The early days of my life back off the,

off the streets, you know, uh, were

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started here at Ivy Manor and I, I was

able to, to repair a lot of relationships,

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get a lot of the things back that I lost,

uh, or, or pawned or sold or whatever.

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And, and, uh, that's kind of

the long way around how I got

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here, but that's how I got here.

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Jason English (Host): to

the steel drivers bit, I

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think in the reports that, you know, I've

tried to, tried to review online in terms

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of, you know, news articles and stuff.

366

They said that you left that band in

order to kind of fix yourself, you know,

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but it doesn't sound like you were fixed,

you know, or, you know what I'm saying?

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Like I

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Gary Nichols: would have to read the

report and see when the timing was.

370

So here, so if you wanted to go

into that for a moment, um, April of

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2017, now this

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is after we won the

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Jason English (Host): You won the Grammy

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Gary Nichols: the Grammy

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Um,

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And I was, I was pretty dependent upon

the pills at that point, but it was

377

pretty much just pills at the Grammys,

maybe some Fentanyl at the time.

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Um, Fentanyl patches.

379

I wasn't, I wasn't playing doctor.

380

I wasn't administering it

to myself other than orally.

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2017, um, I go to rehab the

first time and the second time.

382

And then after I got out of rehab

the second time, which is when

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they said I was going away to fix

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Gary Nichols: Adam

Wakefield, I think stepped

387

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

388

That's that was probably what

was they were referring to.

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Gary Nichols: And that was the truth.

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The problem is I was going to fix

myself because someone said I needed to.

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I didn't think I had a drug problem.

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You know,

393

And looking back, I didn't

have a drug problem.

394

I had a really messed up thinking problem,

but, um, I didn't think I had a problem.

395

I still had the job, the cars, the career.

396

Fuck, we just, pardon my

French, we just won a Grammy.

397

What do you, and I was so high on

fentanyl when we made that record.

398

I thought I was just okay, cool.

399

It's just, so

400

I go to

401

rehab the second time and when I get out,

I get arrested for some paraphernalia that

402

had been in my car before I went to rehab.

403

Didn't even realize it was still

in there, but it was, I got

404

But

405

That

406

started a whole bunch of mess.

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Jason English (Host): mess.

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Yeah.

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Gary Nichols: Um, so

410

After the first arrest, um, July

6th, I decided and I made this

411

decision to start administering.

412

Heroin and or fentanyl.

413

Excuse me.

414

It was going to be heroin, not fentanyl

because I was doing the fentanyl patches.

415

And if you know anything about fentanyl,

it's 50 times more potent than heroin.

416

So if I just do heroin, I can work my way

back because I'm already doing fentanyl.

417

So now let me just do heroin.

418

Then I'll go from heroin back to pills

and then I'll work the pills back down.

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I was going to wean myself off.

420

That was absolutely my train of thought.

421

That was what I was

422

thinking.

423

what I

424

But when

425

I did heroin the first couple of

times, and I just snorted it or smoked

426

it, it didn't have the same effect.

427

A, it was weaker than fentanyl,

and B, it just, it wasn't doing it.

428

So I decided,

429

I learned at rehab, my first,

my second trip to rehab, that

430

I've been wasting my dope.

431

So they told me how to do it.

432

So I did.

433

Six weeks later, it was all over.

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Jason English (Host): did.

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Six

436

Gary Nichols: So,

437

Jason English (Host): Who told

you you were doing it wrong?.

438

Gary Nichols: 17 year old kid at

Cumberland Heights in Nashville,

439

Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

440

mean, how ironic is that?

441

Gary Nichols: Yeah.

442

Well, and it was, it made sense.

443

It's made total sense.

444

I mean, it would, anyway, I

heard what I wanted to hear.

445

wanted

446

And so I go home and I start doing

447

Why

448

Jason English (Host): 2017.

449

Why do you remember that date?

450

Gary Nichols: July the I remember

dates, a lot of dates, but

451

July 6th of 2007, excuse me,

452

July 6th of 2007,

453

the connection,

454

the Grand Ole Opry for the

455

Jason English (Host): you all the dates.

456

Yeah, yeah.

457

I

458

number.

459

Wow.

460

I know

461

Gary Nichols: I know my kindergarten

girlfriend's phone number.

462

Like I remember dates and numbers

it's so strange, but that was the

463

day I started shooting and then,

um, two weeks later I was on the

464

road in Pittsburgh with the band.

465

They didn't know this yet.

466

All they had known is I'd

gone to rehab and I came back.

467

Tammy looks at me in the, in the, I

mean dead ass in the face one morning

468

and says, Gee Ray, I don't know what

you're doing, but you are playing and

469

Jason English (Host): Oh, she's,

470

Gary Nichols: And she had no

471

Jason English (Host): yeah, she

was just trying to encourage

472

Gary Nichols: But I'm just doubled

473

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

474

Yeah.

475

She didn't know it.

476

Yeah.

477

Gary Nichols: so I did that.

478

That was, um, that was

like the 20th of July.

479

August the 18th, I was done with the band.

480

Here's the sad thing about that too.

481

If I'd have made it till December of that

year, the house would have been paid off,

482

the credit cards would have been paid off,

my car, my wife's car, the daughter's car,

483

the other daughter's car, college set up.

484

I was about to make a

lot of money that year.

485

I was homeless January 1st.

486

Jason English (Host): so what happened

between July and August, why'd

487

you leave, did they kicK you out?.

488

Gary Nichols: so one of the band

members went through my stuff and

489

liability to and

490

why did you leave?

491

But that trip, I remember that trip very

well, too, because I drove once I got to

492

Nashville, I drove straight from Nashville

to Talladega, Alabama, because this was

493

only like six weeks after injecting.

494

And so I decided I was going to

go to detox because if I didn't

495

get ahold of this right now, I

knew what was about to happen.

496

but I'd been to enough 12 step

meetings to know, where I was headed.

497

But when I got to that rehab,

498

that detox in Talladega,

499

was,

500

the manager from the band called my

wife and said, he's out of the band.

501

Don't call us ever again.

502

Jason English (Host): my gosh.

503

Gary Nichols: And

504

so what did I do?

505

Any addict is going to

tell you what I did.

506

I got my ass in my truck, I drove back

to Florence, and I doubled down again.

507

And at that point I was

just on a mission to die.

508

wasn't to

509

Um, I wasn't trying to kill myself, but

I wasn't trying to hang around either.

510

My only mission every day was

to get up, find it, use more and

511

more and more and more and more,

and just numb it until it was

512

Jason English (Host):

was it for you to find?

513

Gary Nichols: I had no idea

how easy it was to find.

514

but it was three blocks from my house.

515

And so once I lost the house and the cars,

actually, I stayed in the house for a

516

minute, you know, without power and stuff

because it was close to the dope man.

517

I'll just walk,

518

get a bicycle, ride a bicycle.

519

It's pretty, pretty

520

bicycle.

521

Jason English (Host): Wow.

522

You doubled down there, was there

523

Was was there

524

no ounce of regret?

525

Gary Nichols: Yeah, which was

what fueled the double down.

526

So for me, I don't know what it's

like for other people, but I learned

527

after going through some, some

paperwork on myself that resentments.

528

is really, really bad for me.

529

And I hold a huge resentments toward

myself every time I do something wrong,

530

which becomes guilt, shame, remorse.

531

And so when I don't know what to do

with that, I don't have an outlet

532

for it or I haven't learned, uh,

533

you know how to process

it or cope with it.

534

point in my life, I go

to what's consistent,

535

which

536

was, this is my substance of

537

choice.

538

Um, and that's, yeah, I just.

539

I regretted it.

540

I felt terrible about it.

541

I also knew, you have to imagine

this man, I was a father of four,

542

Jason English (Host): Right.

543

Gary Nichols: um, a wife, we had

pets, I coached, the baseball,

544

the softball, the football.

545

I opened up a recording studio at the

local high school and was teaching there.

546

Um, I wasn't doing that

while I was injecting.

547

I left that job thankfully before

I knew before it got crazy.

548

But I mean, I was father of the

year and band mate of the year.

549

So I thought

550

yeah,

551

like, and then it just, it took off.

552

fell apart.

553

And once I saw that, I just ruined

all these people's lives and I

554

couldn't correct it right there.

555

I didn't see any way out.

556

I just

557

decided to ride down with the ship

558

when out outlaw.

559

Just roll with

560

Jason English (Host): in the

middle of that, did you, was it a

561

conscious decision to double down?

562

Like, did you know that you were

doing that or was it just a, sort of

563

a flight or fight, response, And did

you know at the time that, like, you're

564

burning everything around you, around

you down or not, not until later?

565

Gary Nichols: Yeah, so

there was this weird thing.

566

No, it wasn't like, okay,

they, I did not say this.

567

The steel drivers fired me.

568

So I'm going to go

destroy everything more.

569

What happened was the

steel drivers fired me.

570

So fuck

571

so fuck

572

I don't want to be here now.

573

I

574

just went home and then my wife

left again because we weren't

575

living together at this point.

576

We were still kind of together,

Then I was just there by myself

577

and I went to what was comfortable

578

Um.

579

and I just, that's where I stayed

because I didn't have anybody.

580

I couldn't take care of myself, so

I couldn't take care of the kids.

581

Thankfully they were there

with, they were with her mom and

582

stepfather, their mom and stepfather.

583

Morgan took her kids

and went to Birmingham.

584

So I'm just here by myself in the shoals,

hiding out from people who cared about

585

me and, uh, staying in a dope house.

586

Jason English (Host): So you, you

mentioned the fall, July, August,

587

and then by January 1st, she

said, Well, you said by December,

588

everything would have been paid off.

589

Then by January, you're

basically had lost everything.

590

Right.

591

So that is, uh, that's gotta

be the dark forest for you.

592

Right.

593

So like, you know, I, so this,

this podcast, I know you haven't

594

watched the show, but it's inspired

by this show called Ted Lasso.

595

And one of the episodes, he, he,

he coaches a soccer team and you

596

know, they're on a losing streak.

597

And he basically is saying, he tells the

team in the locker room, fairy tales don't

598

start, nor do they end in the dark forest.

599

Right.

600

So we're, he's basically, we're

in our dark, dark forest and he's

601

trying to give them hope, right.

602

To see the blue skies and the

sunlight in between the branches that

603

had to have been your dark forest.

604

Right.

605

Gary Nichols: I don't know.

606

Jason English (Host): I mean, you

know, like, and I, and I guess my

607

question is what was the, what was

the shimmer of light that you saw

608

after that, that got you on the, on

the, on the path back to, you know,

609

Gary Nichols: So I always tell people,

I truly believe it's like, Oh, you know,

610

Gary hit rock bottom every time I hit

rock bottom, I had dynamite in my pocket.

611

You know, there's always another

bottom, I think, until you're

612

gone.

613

you're gone.

614

So

615

What happened

616

trips

617

for me was after several trips to

rehab and detox and overdoses and

618

jail, I'm now by the way looking

at at prison time for escape.

619

I have an escape charge at

Lauderdale County Detention Center.

620

Um, none of the consequences, it just

didn't seem like it could get dark enough.

621

I came home in April of 2021

after eight months in treatment.

622

I locked myself in my room for three

days because I was scared to leave.

623

I didn't go to a meeting, didn't talk with

anyone, just tried to white knuckle it.

624

And the first place I went was

to get a pack of cigarettes.

625

Three days later and the first person

I saw was a dude I used to get high

626

with and as soon as he asked me I

said, yes, I was on a bender for a

627

few days I went from meth to heroin

to fentanyl within 30 minutes of

628

each other and Three days later.

629

I'm dead overdosed again in a hospital

630

This should be another dark forest moment.

631

If there is a place called hell

and a place called heaven, I truly

632

believe that I was on my way to hell.

633

I woke up in the hospital,

they said with no pulse

634

and all I knew, all I knew was I was

walking down a dark tunnel, somebody was

635

guiding my hand, it was hot, it was chaos,

I could hear it, I could smell it and

636

I woke up That wasn't the dark forest.

637

I went home, I flushed the dope that

day, but I kept using Until they picked

638

me up and until I went to jail again.

639

So here was what it was for me.

640

The moment, after all the consequences,

seeing my mama cry, my kids cry.

641

Knowing, like I wanted to

want to quit so bad, Jay.

642

I did not want to do the

stuff that I was doing.

643

I was not at all driving.

644

I was not in control.

645

It's a weird thing.

646

It's hard to explain.

647

I even look at people right now who are

in the same throes of that, and it's

648

hard to understand why they're doing what

they're doing, and you just don't know

649

unless you're in the middle of But I'm

laying in the Lauderdale County Detention

650

Center, certain I'm going to go to prison.

651

If I don't go to prison, I've already

decided I'm going to get a bag of fentanyl

652

and go get myself out of this place.

653

So no one has to deal

with my bullshit anymore.

654

And if I go to prison, I'll

do it and it'll be cheaper.

655

Because it's all over the prisons, right?

656

That was my mentality.

657

I wasn't going to be here anymore.

658

I was going to un alive myself as

quickly as I could get a needle in

659

Jason English (Host): elevator.

660

Oh my gosh.

661

Gary Nichols: I don't know, a few

weeks in the Lauderdale County Jail,

662

thinking about this every damn day.

663

My only thought is, what's for supper?

664

Who can I beat out of a game of spades?

665

And I'm going to get a needle in my

hand off myself when I leave this place.

666

That's how I lived.

667

was my motivation.

668

That's how I was doing my time.

669

And

670

I don't know if you've been

to jail, hopefully not.

671

But when you're in jail, sometimes

television is very important.

672

It

673

was movie night.

674

It was very important.

675

I'm in the cell with, um, a range

from murderers to drug traffickers

676

to Um, you know, tax evasion.

677

I mean, it's, it's, we're

in, I mean, you know, escape.

678

There's, there's, I mean,

maximum security, Lauderdale

679

County Detention Center.

680

And we were, everybody was

serious about watching this movie.

681

A star is born with Lady

Gaga and Bradley Cooper.

682

I'm, in jail.

683

Got to do the time.

684

So cot time.

685

That's what else am I going to do?

686

So I'm locked into this movie.

687

And I guess somewhere along the way, I

started seeing some parallels between

688

Bradley's character and myself.

689

And at the end of this movie, I

was so mad and so distraught at

690

this character in this movie.

691

I couldn't sit with it.

692

It had me so upset.

693

And then all the guys

are calling their girls.

694

And I don't have one to call at this time.

695

I go catch my rat, and I sit back, and I'm

leaned back, and I swear to you, I hear

696

in a voice, very much like I'm talking

to myself, Are you fucking kidding me?

697

That's how you're gonna leave this place.

698

You can have compassion for a character in

a movie, and you cannot see that as you.

699

Are you fucking kidding me?

700

And immediately I just went, Oh shit.

701

Wow.

702

I give up.

703

I surrender no more.

704

And I won one prayers.

705

Jay, if you want to send me

to prison, send me to prison.

706

If you want to set me on the

street, set me on the street.

707

I give up and I don't want to die anymore.

708

Imagine that.

709

Crazy thing is, I went to

court a few days later.

710

Now I was up, by this point

we've skipped some stuff.

711

I was on drug court.

712

I was on a serious um,

deterrent from prison.

713

They were trying to give me one last

chance from going to prison for escape.

714

Open plea.

715

Escape one carries 25 to

716

life.

717

Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

718

Gary Nichols: had knocked it

down to escape three, but I'd

719

probably at least 15 years.

720

I'm expecting to go to prison

when they call me to court.

721

Jay, this is three days after I just

saw this movie, by the I get to court.

722

They call my name, Mr.

723

Nichols.

724

You're going home today.

725

You're on the banana peel program.

726

If you miss one meeting, if

you're a dollar short, any

727

mistake, you fail a drug test.

728

You're gone.

729

Yes, sir.

730

I don't know about you.

731

How

732

Jason English (Host): do you explain that?

733

Gary Nichols: I

734

don't know and how do you explain

that the first thought in my mind

735

was I want to get Thankfully this

time it was followed by no I don't.

736

Jason English (Host): Okay, good.

737

Gary Nichols: But everybody that

I've told my story to in the rooms

738

like of course that's the first

739

thing.

740

I mean I

741

just had a conversation with God

and said I surrender and I'm in it.

742

Jay I would have passed the lie

detector test when I said that.

743

But my first thought was the disease

says you want to get high bro.

744

I didn't.

745

I don't know how I

didn't get high that day.

746

Um,

747

But I called someone I got

to work pretty immediately.

748

Um, and uh, that was

my dark forest moment.

749

Jason English (Host): So

back to the A Star is Born.

750

So I just want to understand this.

751

So when you were watching it, you were

mad at the Bradley Cooper character.

752

And then, and then you also kind

of turned it like, you're mad at

753

actually having more compassion

for him than you do yourself?

754

Or did, did you not recognize that until

755

Gary Nichols: I didn't recognize it.

756

I'm just watching the

movie as a spectator.

757

And then I sit on my rack after

the movie while these guys

758

are calling their loved ones.

759

And then my subconscious, the source, God.

760

My guardian angel, whatever it was,

spoke to me from the two o'clock position

761

Jason English (Host): Right

762

Gary Nichols: right into my right ear.

763

And, uh, yeah, I didn't realize

it until after the movie.

764

Like I was so upset at

him and then realized

765

that's

766

me, man.

767

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

768

Well, I mean, again, the ironic thing is

you're in the jail watching this thing

769

and you've got the voice of the angel,

you know, like you, you've got the voice

770

of all voices and you know, and, and

I, I mean that just the juxtaposition

771

of, you know, watching an actor play

a music star with Lady Gaga and you're

772

in this jail I mean, how do you, how do

you, how do you explain the, the chances

773

of watching that movie in the jail?

774

You know,

775

Gary Nichols: I

776

believe in, in divine intervention.

777

So, I mean, I don't

believe in coincidence.

778

I don't believe, I just don't, I

don't, I don't know what it is.

779

I still have more questions

than I have answers.

780

Um, but I believe that

there's something out there.

781

Um, And I don't know why it picks

and chooses how it does or what, you

782

know, I'm not, I'm, I don't know.

783

I'm not qualified to say, but

I'm hopeful that I was left here

784

because I wouldn't waste my seat.

785

You know, I still struggle with things.

786

I'm a human.

787

I'm a, I'm a human, full

blooded North Alabama male that

788

struggles with things every day.

789

But I refuse to die with a needle in

my arm or a meth pipe in my mouth.

790

Just not gonna do

791

Jason English (Host): Yeah, good for you.

792

Gary Nichols: And I believe that if

my perspective can be so drastically

793

changed and shifted, and then

hopefully I can benefit someone else

794

that would have a shift in their

perspective and pay it forward.

795

I'm hoping this thing turns into like

the most beautiful, multi marketing,

796

multi-level marketing thing ever.

797

level seriously, you know, it's like

life is good when we get outta the way.

798

Jason English (Host): when out of the way.

799

Yeah, at one point, they

didn't know for a long time,

800

Gary Nichols: Yeah, at one point

801

they didn't know for a long time.

802

Um,

803

but they knew pretty quickly after and

they were, let's see, this is going

804

to be 15 and They knew, um, during

that time and it was pretty brutal.

805

I spent my son's 16th

birthday in his bedroom.

806

he wasn't there.

807

The house was already almost gone.

808

Like it was, they knew, they knew dad

was doing something really, really bad.

809

They knew exactly what it was.

810

Jason English (Host): Well, I mean, you

mentioned earlier that you struggle with

811

sort of self doubt and shame and remorse

and you kind of beat yourself up, right?

812

Gary Nichols: Did for sure.

813

Jason English (Host): And so

like now, like what, So you went

814

through the dark forest for sure.

815

How do you then keep yourself today

looking back and feeling like,

816

you know, shit about yourself?

817

Like what, what, what's changed in

your mindset and healing process

818

to, to prevent you from going

back to the, the old, the old way?

819

Gary Nichols: there's a lot.

820

I'll sum it up like this.

821

If Imagine that there's a beautiful white

house on the corner of your neighborhood,

822

the corner street in your neighborhood.

823

And you drive by it one

day and just shoot it up.

824

Just AK 47, cannons, muskets,

whatever, and set it on fire.

825

And you still live in this neighborhood.

826

I couldn't drive by that house

every day knowing that I did

827

that and I left it that way.

828

What keeps me okay today is

I'm trying to fix the house.

829

Cleaning up the wreckage of my past.

830

I don't pick up new resentments

for people very often.

831

And if I do, I try to get rid of it soon.

832

So I don't let it affect me.

833

And I do my damnedest not to cause harm

to myself or other people on a daily

834

My damned

835

And it seems to work.

836

Jason English (Host): to myself

or other people on daily basis.

837

And it seems to work.

838

It's dramatic and it's sad for

a lot of reasons, but it's,

839

it's, it's also inspiring.

840

I mean, you, you know, so I, I watched

you last night do some vocals here

841

on, uh, for Davin McCoy, who's,

you know, recording the album and

842

it was something to watch, man.

843

You know, just you, uh, how you

approach the whole process and

844

you were just doing the harmonies.

845

Um, but your voice, I mean,

it's, uh, it's something, man.

846

Gary Nichols: It's weathered.

847

Jason English (Host):

Well, no, but that's life.

848

You know, that, you know, it's the,

it's a reflection of a life that's,

849

you know, that's, that's been lived.

850

Gary Nichols: well, I'll say this

about, um, segue about, about Davin

851

and, and the project here at Ivy Manor.

852

First off, there's something

magical about this place.

853

It just pulls something out of me.

854

Like I can go sing on a corner or

go sing at a bar, go sing on stage.

855

And I don't know, I approach things

differently from here for sure.

856

It's, I respect it.

857

It's almost hallowed ground.

858

I also respect Davin and love his

writing and his voice and his melodies.

859

So it's, it's a challenge

because we sing differently.

860

So I also love that.

861

It's like, okay, now I have to do

something I'm not, I'm not accustomed to.

862

Um, but I loved, I loved that last night.

863

Those, those songs were great.

864

And his project he's making here

is going to be unbelievable.

865

Jason English (Host): be unbelievable.

866

Yeah, no, that's great.

867

Um, I want to go forward and then come

back, uh, even before the steel drivers.

868

But, uh, so how has your whole time in

the dark forest impacted the songwriting?

869

And, you know, I think you're, you're,

you're planning a new, a new album.

870

That's called, uh, learning to walk again,

871

Gary Nichols: learning how to walk

872

Jason English (Host): at

learning how to walk, walk again.

873

Obviously that's a, a signal to,

you know, getting yourself back

874

up and, and walking, like before.

875

how much of that experience

now sort of inspires your brain

876

and the songwriting thoughts?

877

Do you have, do you have a

lot of material now or is it,

878

you know, from, from that whole

879

Gary Nichols: So

880

during that experience, I had,

I was writing a lot of stuff

881

while I was in the throes of it.

882

So, most of the, all of the

record, with the exception of two

883

songs, were written while I was in

884

Jason English (Host): So the,

so the album that's going to be

885

released later this year, is it

going to be, it's going to be that

886

Gary Nichols: Yeah, so it's

like devil's blood, which is it

887

it talks about Devil's blood.

888

I'm I've lost the house and I'm

walking past I'm walking from my

889

mom and dad's house at this point

where I'm staying to the dope house

890

Which is now six miles away walk past

through my old neighborhood the house.

891

I just Traded for dope basically got

high walk back past that house went to

892

my mom and dad's house and wrote that

song Most of the songs were probably

893

written at my mom and dad's house You

Either, either in the back bedroom or

894

outside on the porch when I was up for

three or four days, but, um, but yeah,

895

and then I wrote, um, while I was in

jail, I started writing, learning how to

896

walk again, or it started writing itself.

897

I honestly didn't think I'd ever

play again, Jay, long before the

898

aha moment with the, with the movie.

899

And, uh, I didn't have any instruments.

900

I had one instrument.

901

Maybe I hadn't traded for dope.

902

Um, who's gonna, who's

gonna want to hire me?

903

Yeah.

904

You know what I mean?

905

Like that's the, that's

the, the, the, the mindset.

906

And so, but this song kind

of kept playing with me.

907

And, and when I got out and finally

made my way to Ivy Manor, I called a

908

friend of mine by the name of Jason,

Jason Patrick Matthews, wonderful

909

songwriter and, um, brought him to

Muscle Shoals and we wrote that one.

910

And that was the, uh, first song I'd

ever written with any kind of sobriety.

911

Um, since I was, you know, 14 years old.

912

So that was pretty cool.

913

Jason English (Host): That's incredible

914

Gary Nichols: that album.

915

So here's the thing with my music career.

916

Um, I'm in charge of it.

917

I need help and I'm working on that.

918

So, so here's what's going on.

919

I'm doing some really fun stuff with RBR

Entertainment, RBR Records, which is a

920

bluegrass record label out of Nashville.

921

I've had a couple of singles

out, one called This Time Around,

922

uh, which did really well.

923

I believe it was, it held a

number one position on one of the

924

bluegrass charts for a little while.

925

Another, um, and that song was written by

Billy Droz, Chris Myers, and Eddie Wilson.

926

And then, no, excuse me.

927

I'm so wrong.

928

The first single was called Fire in

the Dark, written by Eddie Wilson,

929

um, Chris Myers and Billy Droz.

930

Second single, I co wrote with

Terry Hurd and Billy Droz and it

931

was called This Time Around, which

was kind of, um, what this is about.

932

This time around, now that I've lived,

I'm gonna go out and try to share

933

a positive message of experience,

strength of hope, and save someone

934

who's struggling like I was, so maybe

they won't hit the same bottom I did.

935

Um, so I'm loving that, the

bluegrass thing, touring with

936

Billy Droz and Kentucky Blue Sun.

937

which is a lot of fun.

938

And then, before I even got back to

Bluegrass Radio, I already had this

939

record I was making at Ivy Manor

Music Group with Dan Hannan and

940

Michael Wright and Jared Przibic.

941

Um, and it's all the struggle songs.

942

It's more of the Americana format.

943

I mean, there's some drums and

steel guitar, you know, or electric

944

guitar, not steel guitar, but organ

and keys and that kind of stuff.

945

So it's a lot different

from the bluegrass thing.

946

Um, I'm hoping it will

be out in the fall of 24.

947

And

948

I will know more about that probably

by the time this podcast comes out.

949

So, um, but yeah, there's a lot going on.

950

There's bluegrass stuff, there's

Americana stuff, I'm songwriting.

951

Um, and yes, I think to answer

your question about, um,

952

How's, how's it's affected me.

953

I tend to find the younger people

that are coming to write with me

954

These days are wanting to write

955

that

956

love.

957

It's

958

The hard stuff which I love it's like

it's not all about you're hot getting

959

my truck Let me rock on and show you

how country I am It's uh, they want to

960

write something with some substance.

961

So I love that So But also still

write songs about heartbreak

962

and heartache because I've gone

through that as much as anything.

963

Whether it be because of

the substance or the girl.

964

Jason English (Host): Right, right.

965

Well, so that that's a good segue to go

back because I want to talk about like

966

the 2006 to 2010 time just real briefly

and then, uh, and then we can wrap it up.

967

So the I think one of your hits when you

were a single artist before the steel

968

drivers was, uh, I can't love you anymore.

969

And, uh,

970

to me, you know, in reading the

lyrics and listening to it, it's,

971

it's a tremendous heartbreak song

972

Gary Nichols: yeah, it was written

by James Otto and John rich

973

Jason English (Host): I guess

what was the genesis of that?

974

Um, and were you, did you record it?

975

Having gone through a

breakup, heartbreak, whatever.

976

Gary Nichols: was happily married

977

when I recorded it to my first wife

978

But I've gone through a lot of heartbreak

probably mostly self inflicted.

979

Like I fall in love, or I used to fall

in love really hard and really fast.

980

And when I heard that song, it

was more of a business move.

981

It sounded like a smash to me.

982

I love James Otto and John Rich.

983

We were doing some work together at the

time, writing some songs and whatnot.

984

And I just loved the song.

985

But it's that song has absolutely

haunted me since then much like

986

some of the songs that I write

987

they later come true and My problem is

I've loved very much a lot of wonderful

988

you know

989

I'm not saying a lot like trying to

be gross like Wilt Chamberlain, but

990

I've had a you know what I mean?

991

Like I I mean I love and so every time

I sing that song it kind of takes me to

992

a To a place and there's There's there's

one that I always sing it she just doesn't

993

Jason English (Host): of, uh,

sort of missed opportunities?

994

Gary Nichols: No, I think it was the

perfect opportunity I think sometimes I

995

feel like my lot in life may be to to To

receive and to release and to document it

996

Jason English (Host): it.

997

Okay.

998

Gary Nichols: like I'm okay

with Don't mind heartbreak

999

It gives me something that inspires me

00:49:41,859 --> 00:49:43,989

It motivates me to do something different.

00:49:44,799 --> 00:49:47,919

Um, I don't, I try not

to fall in love anymore.

00:49:47,999 --> 00:49:50,209

You know, it's so far off

00:49:51,879 --> 00:49:53,789

battling, but I'm doing okay.

00:49:54,569 --> 00:49:56,509

But, um, but yeah, it's, uh,

00:49:58,049 --> 00:49:58,309

I don't know.

00:49:58,309 --> 00:50:00,079

Does that make any sense

at all to an earth?

00:50:00,109 --> 00:50:01,969

What I would, I'm going to

call you an earth person, but

00:50:01,969 --> 00:50:04,339

like to say, to say out loud.

00:50:05,609 --> 00:50:08,169

I'm okay with experiencing

all the phases of

00:50:08,317 --> 00:50:09,482

Jason English (Host): no, I think, yeah,

00:50:09,749 --> 00:50:11,349

Gary Nichols: doc and documenting it for

00:50:11,576 --> 00:50:12,688

Jason English (Host):

think that makes sense.

00:50:12,688 --> 00:50:12,979

And

00:50:12,979 --> 00:50:13,418

then each

00:50:13,479 --> 00:50:16,119

Gary Nichols: then each new person

kind of gives you a new take and you

00:50:16,119 --> 00:50:20,088

experience and you're older and you've

have a little different perspective on it.

00:50:21,259 --> 00:50:21,639

I don't know.

00:50:21,679 --> 00:50:23,579

I've never really said that out

loud, but that's kind of how I

00:50:23,776 --> 00:50:26,966

Jason English (Host): well, so, you

know, I was married a long time and

00:50:26,966 --> 00:50:33,439

the song resonated with me because

it's It talks about, you know,

00:50:33,439 --> 00:50:34,969

leading, leaning into the pain.

00:50:35,409 --> 00:50:38,949

I think it uses different words,

but, uh, and that's what I think,

00:50:38,959 --> 00:50:44,159

you know, after a breakup or after a

relationship ends, it's one thing to

00:50:44,159 --> 00:50:50,329

just try to forget it, but you feel

something and it's better to experience

00:50:50,339 --> 00:50:52,439

it and to get through it, right?

00:50:52,649 --> 00:50:55,779

Rather than compartmentalize it or

rather than, you know, just kind of

00:50:55,779 --> 00:50:58,069

like, you know, brush it to the side.

00:50:58,634 --> 00:51:00,204

Gary Nichols: Here's what

happens when you run from it.

00:51:00,264 --> 00:51:06,014

And if you think of it in a, in the sense

of a storm like that, if you're running

00:51:06,014 --> 00:51:08,618

from it, it's constantly chasing you.

00:51:09,624 --> 00:51:12,744

If you hit it head on, that's why

I love sad songs make me smile.

00:51:12,744 --> 00:51:13,304

I always say that.

00:51:13,724 --> 00:51:15,724

When I'm going through

that, I want to hear that.

00:51:15,754 --> 00:51:16,734

I want to write that.

00:51:17,204 --> 00:51:18,164

I go right through it.

00:51:18,164 --> 00:51:20,624

It's coming at me head on and I'm

going at it head on, just like you

00:51:20,624 --> 00:51:21,704

said, leaning straight into it.

00:51:21,734 --> 00:51:22,644

And then we pass.

00:51:22,934 --> 00:51:27,184

And at some point toward the end

of the storm, it starts to be okay.

00:51:27,484 --> 00:51:30,344

And, and yeah, definitely go through it.

00:51:30,624 --> 00:51:34,649

If you're going through a heartbreak

right now, Just get on Spotify and

00:51:34,649 --> 00:51:38,429

just find a heartbreak playlist

or just type in Gary Nichols.

00:51:38,429 --> 00:51:41,189

You'll probably find some

songs and just get through it.

00:51:41,199 --> 00:51:42,009

It'll be okay.

00:51:42,283 --> 00:51:45,789

Jason English (Host): are the

lyrics and um, you know, it's a

00:51:45,789 --> 00:51:49,059

great song, but it's a, it's, it's

called, I can't love you anymore.

00:51:49,059 --> 00:51:52,159

So it's, how do I break it

to my heart that it's got,

00:51:52,429 --> 00:51:54,089

that it's gotta get over you.

00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,549

How do I learn to live apart

from the one I gave my life to?

00:51:58,349 --> 00:52:01,279

Well, right here, right now,

let it turn me inside out.

00:52:01,849 --> 00:52:03,029

So I can just move on.

00:52:03,149 --> 00:52:07,439

So bring on the pain, let it kill

your memory, bring on the rain, let it

00:52:07,449 --> 00:52:10,889

drown what, what's left of you and me.

00:52:12,729 --> 00:52:13,639

That's pretty good, right?

00:52:14,139 --> 00:52:15,229

Gary Nichols: It's pretty good, man.

00:52:15,259 --> 00:52:20,309

And it's, um, I mean, when you say

that, you mean it, just bring it on.

00:52:20,449 --> 00:52:20,779

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

00:52:20,999 --> 00:52:21,699

Gary Nichols: Hit me with it.

00:52:21,779 --> 00:52:22,789

I'm not running from it.

00:52:22,809 --> 00:52:23,779

I know you're leaving.

00:52:23,779 --> 00:52:26,039

I know it's over this

phase of our life is over.

00:52:26,069 --> 00:52:26,439

Okay.

00:52:26,439 --> 00:52:27,539

Let me process it.

00:52:28,219 --> 00:52:31,519

Cause if you're like me and you don't

process it and you run from it and

00:52:31,519 --> 00:52:34,969

then you start to find something else

to fill this void, then you're just

00:52:34,969 --> 00:52:37,859

sitting there with the same problem and

you've got something else on top of it.

00:52:38,189 --> 00:52:44,099

You know, you know, you, if you take a,

if you take it, if you take alcohol, if

00:52:44,099 --> 00:52:46,539

you take alcohol away from an alcoholic.

00:52:47,599 --> 00:52:52,294

A broken hearted man, you still

got a broken hearted so you still

00:52:52,294 --> 00:52:54,484

gotta fix the Get through it.

00:52:56,412 --> 00:53:01,338

Jason English (Host): the problem.

00:53:06,154 --> 00:53:06,244

Gary Nichols: Sure.

00:53:07,039 --> 00:53:09,959

Jason English (Host): Um, and I'm, I'm

not saying that I necessarily went through

00:53:09,959 --> 00:53:15,489

a whole phase, but I was, uh, I was,

you know, I was married a long time.

00:53:15,579 --> 00:53:18,849

I married basically the first

person I fell in love with.

00:53:18,909 --> 00:53:21,279

And, uh, I was scared to death, right.

00:53:21,289 --> 00:53:21,779

To go out.

00:53:21,779 --> 00:53:25,939

And, but I wanted, I

wanted to meet new people.

00:53:26,189 --> 00:53:31,619

And, um, and a lot of people were like,

Jason, like, why, why are you trying?

00:53:32,209 --> 00:53:34,519

Like, why are you going on so

many first dates and why are

00:53:34,519 --> 00:53:36,269

you leaning into this so much?

00:53:36,269 --> 00:53:39,719

And it's like, I wanted to, I wanted

to have the experiences, right?

00:53:40,019 --> 00:53:44,089

in my day job, I've been in sales a long

time, you know, selling like technology

00:53:44,089 --> 00:53:51,029

services and in sales, you have to be

able to, uh, withstand and accept the no.

00:53:51,809 --> 00:53:56,129

you know, because you get your heartbroken

all the time in sales, you know, , it's

00:53:56,185 --> 00:53:56,798

Gary Nichols: so

00:53:57,359 --> 00:53:57,749

Jason English (Host): So it's

00:53:57,749 --> 00:54:01,919

like, uh, so my whole approach was

I'm gonna meet, you know, good pe

00:54:01,979 --> 00:54:04,859

you know, try to meet good people and

just see where it goes and lean into

00:54:04,859 --> 00:54:08,039

it knowing that it could get rough.

00:54:08,429 --> 00:54:09,869

But I think that's life, right?

00:54:10,139 --> 00:54:10,349

Yeah.

00:54:10,354 --> 00:54:13,439

And it's like, uh, and people are like,

why are you being so v vulnerable and

00:54:13,439 --> 00:54:14,909

why are you putting yourself out there?

00:54:16,324 --> 00:54:19,074

What else would I, you know,

what else would I want to do?

00:54:19,144 --> 00:54:21,621

You know, I want to, I'm, I'm almost 50.

00:54:21,621 --> 00:54:26,084

I'll be 50, you know, probably by the

time this is recorded or, uh, published.

00:54:26,584 --> 00:54:30,524

And, you know, my eyes open now to

like the fact that I've got half,

00:54:30,924 --> 00:54:32,484

basically less than half my life left.

00:54:32,784 --> 00:54:34,194

I'm going to go live it, you know?

00:54:35,099 --> 00:54:35,149

Gary Nichols: Yeah.

00:54:35,149 --> 00:54:36,269

That's kind of where I am too.

00:54:36,269 --> 00:54:41,634

Like, well, you, My relationship situation

is, is, is touchy because I've been

00:54:41,634 --> 00:54:51,234

married twice to two wonderful women

and I'm the common denominator, period.

00:54:51,344 --> 00:54:56,194

So, now I'm the common denominator

after, like I've, all the

00:54:56,194 --> 00:54:58,514

money I had went up my arm.

00:54:59,159 --> 00:55:01,089

Right, so now I'm starting over.

00:55:01,199 --> 00:55:03,029

I've done pretty well

in the past few years.

00:55:04,389 --> 00:55:07,129

Got a house, got cars, doing

this sort of thing, making

00:55:07,129 --> 00:55:08,399

amends, all that sort of stuff.

00:55:08,399 --> 00:55:13,159

But like, A, I don't have, I don't

have my, my house in order, in order

00:55:13,159 --> 00:55:17,309

to bring someone else and be able

to feel like my duty to provide for

00:55:17,759 --> 00:55:21,009

or provide with in today's society,

whatever you want to call it.

00:55:21,099 --> 00:55:22,018

I'm just not there yet.

00:55:23,159 --> 00:55:25,749

Also, I was married

collectively for 20 years.

00:55:26,379 --> 00:55:27,579

I'm the common denominator.

00:55:27,589 --> 00:55:28,349

That's okay.

00:55:28,599 --> 00:55:33,589

But as a whole number right now, I'm

just going to be very, very selective

00:55:33,609 --> 00:55:35,559

about when I decide to do that.

00:55:35,799 --> 00:55:36,219

Um,

00:55:36,319 --> 00:55:36,639

Jason English (Host): yeah.

00:55:37,919 --> 00:55:42,959

Gary Nichols: problem is, like you said,

we're, you know, we're getting, you

00:55:42,959 --> 00:55:45,919

know, I've lived 16, 700 something days,

00:55:46,029 --> 00:55:46,889

Jason English (Host): Right, right.

00:55:47,009 --> 00:55:48,929

Gary Nichols: You know, I don't

know how many of them are left.

00:55:49,514 --> 00:55:52,274

But I'm, again, I'm not just gonna

selfishly say, well, I don't wanna

00:55:52,274 --> 00:55:53,834

die alone, so I'm gonna lock you down.

00:55:54,344 --> 00:55:56,174

I'm just, when that time comes, it comes.

00:55:56,184 --> 00:55:57,574

Jason English (Host): Well, it's

probably hard for you, too, as

00:55:57,614 --> 00:55:58,924

like an incredible musician.

00:55:59,004 --> 00:56:01,494

I mean, I'm sure you've got options.

00:56:02,134 --> 00:56:02,314

You

00:56:02,419 --> 00:56:02,709

Gary Nichols: well,

00:56:03,134 --> 00:56:05,714

Jason English (Host): And you said

earlier, you're going to be selective.

00:56:05,744 --> 00:56:09,204

But it, I'm sure, you know, I'm

sure that's, that's got to be tough.

00:56:09,434 --> 00:56:11,774

Gary Nichols: Well, um, you

know, we all have options, right?

00:56:13,104 --> 00:56:18,324

Here's what's really tough, um, is

when you have someone in your life.

00:56:18,899 --> 00:56:23,609

That probably treats you better than

anyone's ever treated you and Loves you

00:56:23,609 --> 00:56:27,349

so well, and you don't understand it

because you've not been in that type of

00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:30,349

relationship And you're like me right now.

00:56:30,349 --> 00:56:31,429

You don't want it

00:56:35,329 --> 00:56:36,339

Jason English (Host): it's like, why not?

00:56:36,549 --> 00:56:36,939

You know?

00:56:37,159 --> 00:56:41,049

Gary Nichols: Yeah, I've got

there's a Love her to death.

00:56:41,059 --> 00:56:43,469

She's a dear friend of mine I'm not

gonna call her name on here, but she

00:56:43,469 --> 00:56:49,459

knows who she is and and I asked myself

You know daily what the hell am I doing?

00:56:50,284 --> 00:56:53,484

But what I'm doing is sticking to

the plan that I said I was going to

00:56:53,484 --> 00:56:56,874

do when I came out to the side and

just trying to stick to the mission.

00:56:56,944 --> 00:57:00,494

And then I asked myself, well, could

she help me achieve the mission?

00:57:00,674 --> 00:57:01,364

You know what I mean?

00:57:01,404 --> 00:57:04,064

Like, she's, she's that kind

of, she's that kind of woman.

00:57:04,203 --> 00:57:06,749

Jason English (Host): I mean?

00:57:06,749 --> 00:57:22,318

Like, she's, she's that

kind of, that kind of woman.

00:57:23,416 --> 00:57:28,446

Gary Nichols: Obviously,

mean, Chris Dable.

00:57:28,446 --> 00:57:28,903

He's

00:57:29,089 --> 00:57:30,529

Jason English (Host): I mean,

obviously he wasn't really, I mean,

00:57:30,529 --> 00:57:33,979

he was always Chris Stapleton, but

he's, he's taken on a huge persona

00:57:33,979 --> 00:57:36,219

now, but even at the time, you know,

00:57:51,814 --> 00:57:53,088

Gary Nichols: I'd go

in the ring with Tyson

00:57:53,679 --> 00:57:53,919

Jason English (Host): I can

00:57:54,054 --> 00:57:55,204

Gary Nichols: or Muhammad Ali.

00:57:55,794 --> 00:57:56,894

I'm just, you know what I mean?

00:57:56,894 --> 00:57:58,014

I ain't scared of shit

00:57:58,359 --> 00:57:58,709

Jason English (Host): I can see

00:57:58,864 --> 00:58:00,014

Gary Nichols: and he's a monster.

00:58:00,544 --> 00:58:04,914

So, but when I, when I got the

call, no, I was like, well, I'm

00:58:04,914 --> 00:58:05,994

not, I don't want to be in a band.

00:58:06,219 --> 00:58:07,054

Jason English (Host): want to be

00:58:07,154 --> 00:58:09,464

Gary Nichols: a solo

artist, a bluegrass band?

00:58:10,434 --> 00:58:11,844

Um, and then

00:58:11,844 --> 00:58:12,954

Mike Henderson said, yeah.

00:58:12,954 --> 00:58:14,304

He said, I said, well, who's the singer?

00:58:14,304 --> 00:58:15,284

He said, Stapleton.

00:58:15,914 --> 00:58:17,424

I said, oh, well send

me the record because.

00:58:18,274 --> 00:58:20,834

Again, I love bluegrass, but

if you've heard me sing, you

00:58:20,834 --> 00:58:22,504

don't think right off the bat.

00:58:22,534 --> 00:58:24,444

Oh, that's a bluegrass

singer from East Kentucky

00:58:26,064 --> 00:58:26,584

so

00:58:26,634 --> 00:58:29,914

I was never never thought about being

in a bluegrass band, but when I heard

00:58:29,914 --> 00:58:32,904

that first record good night man

00:58:34,694 --> 00:58:37,364

Good corn liquor that

I was sold right then

00:58:38,194 --> 00:58:38,744

so

00:58:39,964 --> 00:58:44,659

Then I probably got excited Because

it was just fun stuff to play.

00:58:44,659 --> 00:58:47,439

But when I joined the band,

it was just like me reverting

00:58:47,439 --> 00:58:48,739

back to being the cover guy.

00:58:48,829 --> 00:58:49,759

That's what I felt like.

00:58:50,329 --> 00:58:51,899

Well, I've done the

cover band for a while.

00:58:51,959 --> 00:58:54,409

I love all these songs though,

so I'll sing all these songs.

00:58:55,419 --> 00:58:58,689

And then we got to making our

first record, Hammered Down.

00:58:59,269 --> 00:59:01,358

That's the first time I felt pressure.

00:59:02,389 --> 00:59:08,879

Only because, and it wasn't intentional,

but the people kept bringing up the

00:59:08,879 --> 00:59:13,774

fact that they had been nominated For

a grammy for where rainbows never die.

00:59:13,854 --> 00:59:19,864

I was like, oh shit You know Chris

is not yet really taken off just yet.

00:59:19,864 --> 00:59:24,384

I think at this time he's still doing the

Johnson brothers But I still felt a little

00:59:24,384 --> 00:59:27,694

bit of pressure at that point in time

00:59:29,004 --> 00:59:32,014

By the time the muscle

shows recordings got here.

00:59:32,014 --> 00:59:36,112

I don't felt anything and so I

00:59:37,022 --> 00:59:42,534

in completely untapped, unhinged,

George Dickel, Fenton Hall,

00:59:42,576 --> 00:59:43,358

Jason English (Host): else, probably

00:59:43,504 --> 00:59:45,764

Gary Nichols: whatever else, probably

plenty of other things too, but,

00:59:46,294 --> 00:59:51,814

um, and just wasn't scared at all

and just went and made the record.

00:59:52,244 --> 00:59:57,974

And I'll, I'll say this because I don't

know that it gets said a lot, but, um,

00:59:58,524 --> 01:00:06,374

you know, Jimmy Nutt and myself with

the band cut those tracks and then Jimmy

01:00:06,374 --> 01:00:10,058

Nutt and I spent a lot of time on that

record, like producing that record.

01:00:10,979 --> 01:00:13,789

think Jimmy should get, I don't know

if he's got production credit or not.

01:00:13,839 --> 01:00:17,259

I think he just might've gotten

engineer credit, but Jimmy Nutt