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Breaking Down No-Kill with guest Daphna Nachminovitch from PETA
Episode 31 • 2nd November 2023 • The Animal Welfare Junction • A. Michelle Gonzalez, DVM, MS
00:00:00 01:11:42

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We hear the term no-kill often within the rescue and shelter community, but do you know what no-kill actually means? You may be surprised to learn the facts behind what it takes to be a no-kill shelter and the impact it has on the current pet overpopulation and rescue hoarding crisis.

Our Guest, Daphna Nachminovitch, head of PETA's Cruelty Investigations Department, joins us to discuss this topic, educate our listeners on the problems seen when no-kill goes too far, and help the community understand how their misconception and demands are promoting overpopulation, warehousing, and hoarding. We do not want animals to die needlessly at shelters and all adoptable animals should have a home, but euthanasia is not the problem, the current animal care crisis is.

Please note that this is a statement on the no-kill perception and not an episode against Best Friends Animal Society. We believe that they do amazing work in providing resources and ideas to help shelters, but we would love for them to use different language that is not divisive and that best exemplifies their movement. 

Transcripts

DrG:

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today, we have a special guest,

Daphna Nachminovitch from PETA.

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Uh, welcome Daphna and welcome

to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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Daphna: Thank you, Dr.

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G.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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DrG: So can you start by giving

us a rundown of your background

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and kind of what led you to where

you are today and your current

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position at PETA?

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Daphna: Sure.

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Um, I actually started in the animal

protection field in the early 90s working

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at an open admission shelter in downtown

Chicago called the Anti Cruelty Society.

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I worked there for several years, both

as a kennel technician and a receiving

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agent, and eventually I went on to work

at their low cost, uh, spay neuter clinic.

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Thank you.

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And I then, I came to

years ago in:

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I started as a cruelty caseworker,

and today I oversee PETA's cruelty

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investigations department, which

includes a small animal shelter.

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four mobile spay neuter clinics and a

field work division of about a dozen field

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workers who go out into our immediate

area within about a two hour radius,

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which includes some very impoverished

counties in North Carolina, Northeastern

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North Carolina and Southeastern Virginia.

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And, um, we try to make their

lives better and get legislation

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passed that prevents behavior that

causes them to suffer, essentially.

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DrG: Excellent.

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And I'm really glad to have you here

because, you know, I know that some

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people have misconceptions about

PETA as far as, you know, being

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extremists and that kind of stuff.

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And I have to say I'm guilty of

that because when I was in college,

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people would say like, Oh, somebody

let all the mink out of the cages.

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So clearly that was like a PETA

person or something like that.

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And over time, I have, I have been able

to learn that that is not the case.

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And I have been able to work

with cruelty cases that you

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guys have actually started with.

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I believe that you guys had

some to do with the Envigo case,

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the initial investigations.

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Daphna: Absolutely, yeah.

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DrG: Yeah, so I think that, you know,

people need to, like, like everything

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that we're going to be discussing today.

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It's about education and then

learning, learning from that.

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So, uh, the main reason I invited you

here today is because I wanted to talk

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about this whole concept of no kill.

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And I want to start by saying this is not

dumping on best friends society, because

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I think that they do a great job as

far as trying to help with shelters and

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uh, resources for animals, but I don't

think the public understands what the

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no kill concept actually means and

the problems that it brings about.

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So, one of, I guess the goals of this

today is to define what no kill actually

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means and share the problems with the

no kill movement when it goes too far.

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And then, if anything, let the public

understand what their part is in the...

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I say how their demands and are causing

problems to the rescues and shelters.

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So can you, I guess, to get this started,

can you talk about what the perception

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of no kill is and what it actually means?

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Daphna: Sure.

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Well, I mean, I think I'd like to also

start by just saying that the term itself

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is It's first of all, very misleading

to the average member of the public,

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but it's also extremely divisive.

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You know, when I started in this field

in the early nineties and I worked for

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the anti cruelty society, um, I would

be behind that receiving desk and people

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would come in and including, you know,

frequent flyers whose animals had litters.

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You know, season after season and the

first thing that they would say was, you

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know, you're not going to kill them, are

you, you know, completely oblivious to

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the big picture and the fact that as an

open admission shelter, at least at the

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time that was open 365 days a year from

9am to 7pm, that we were overwhelmed with

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animals and that euthanasia was part of

our daily reality as the shelter workers

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and in my experience and certainly as

someone who started in this field, As

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a very optimistic, bright eyed young

person straight out of college, you know,

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I myself didn't understand euthanasia.

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And I remember that when I was

interviewed, I was told that

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the shelter performs euthanasia.

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And my reaction was, well, I

won't have to do it, will I?

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And then I ended up, you know, being

trained to perform euthanasia because

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I realized from where I was coming

from anyway, after a dog I was attached

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to had to be euthanized because there

was you know, some nobody wanted her.

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She was a perfectly perfect dog,

but she just didn't get adopted.

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Um, she was a white German shepherd

named Candy and she, you know, she

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went through foster and antibiotics for

kennel cough and, you know, we tried for

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several weeks and she never got adopted.

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And I stayed with her.

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And then I realized that You know,

if I were to stay in that shelter,

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I, I felt that that was a really

the most significant place for me

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to be is to be there for animals who

had been discarded by someone else.

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And, you know, I wanted to make sure that

their last moment on earth was filled

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with love and kindness and respect.

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And so I, I did that.

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I, I went ahead and transferred

to the department that performed

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euthanasia and it opened my eyes to

a whole new world of, um, You know,

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disappointment in, in people that, uh,

bring their animals to the shelter.

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And so I, I think the term, you know,

thinking of, of myself at the time

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and the people I worked with and, and,

and, you know, today too, I'm still a

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euthanasia technician and our shelter at

PETA euthanizes animals who are at the

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end of their lives for people who cannot

afford to have that done at a private.

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clinic, but we also euthanize animals who

are unadoptable for one reason or another.

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And I think the term has caused a

tremendous amount of not just damage

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to our ability to work together as

a, as an animal protection movement,

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but by really misleading the public

into thinking that not euthanizing

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animals was possible in a humane world.

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And it just isn't, you know, and

so the term itself, I think, uh,

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I, I mean, I, I don't use it.

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Um, unless I'm describing a situation

that led to, you know, a real situation,

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a factual situation that led to

a hoarder case or a cruelty case.

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But I think that the public is misled into

believing that animal shelters can clean

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up after them without having to euthanize,

and that's unfortunately not the case.

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So I think the term itself is something

that has misled the public and has

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regressed us as a society because when you

tell people that their local shelter is so

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called no kill, you are enabling them to

continue buying from breeders, buying from

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pet stores, failing to spay or neuter,

thinking that I can just take the animals

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to my local shelter because they won't

euthanize them or quote unquote kill them.

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So I think it's a damaging,

divisive, and dangerous term.

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Uh, and I, I urge everyone

to do away with it.

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DrG: Yeah, I don't like it because I

think that it's very inflammatory, right?

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Like we are saying no kill.

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So we're saying that a shelter

that euthanizes for whatever

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reason that they're killing,

which is akin to murdering.

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So it's a, it's a very brutal term to use.

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And I'm sure that it is.

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It was.

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Picked very carefully because

it, it creates a reaction, right?

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Yeah,

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Daphna: it's a marketing slogan.

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And as a marketing slogan,

it's been very successful.

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Because it's a term that's

become a household term now.

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But I don't think your average person

has any idea what animals and the people

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who work to end animal homelessness

and overpopulation face every day.

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And I would challenge anybody to work

one day at an open admission shelter

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behind that receiving desk because,

um, you know, it just really opens your

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eyes to how casual people are about

acquiring and discarding sentient live

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companion animals, you know, animals who

feel pain, suffering, loneliness, fear.

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And, you know, people just

take for granted that they can

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take them to the animal shelter

and everything will be okay.

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And for that animal, even if they are

well adjusted and sweet and adoptable,

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it's, it's traumatic to be separated

from who they perceive as their family.

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DrG: I think that the public perception

causes especially like local politicians,

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for instance, we work with a dog

pound that is overwhelmed and they're

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and they're not limited intake.

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So they have to take everything in as

far as cruelty and everything and the and

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the local government tells the pound, you

cannot euthanize anything because we have

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to maintain that, that number, right,

which we will talk about in a second.

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So instead of them being able to

do what's needed, what they do

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is they, they have to stack cages

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and increase

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the, the number of the room to house

animals, but they're not really doing

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anything to, to correct the number.

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So one of the, one of the things

that I want to discuss is that no

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kill is not really truly no kill.

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It allows a certain number of euthanasia.

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And I think that's something

that people do not understand.

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And that's where that whole

10 percent comes about.

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So can you discuss what the 10

percent means and what is allowed

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to be euthanized within that 10%?

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Daphna: Yeah, I mean, I think to me,

that's honestly just part of the Fact

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that this is just a huge sham and

a shell game, you know, it's like,

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well, your quote unquote no kill if

your quote unquote save rate is 90%.

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So you are allowed so to speak to

euthanize 10 percent of the animals

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that you take in, because that's You

know, that's what you can basically

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rule as unadoptable, whether it's old

age or temperament or poor health.

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And so you can be, you can call yourself

no kill as long as you're releasing alive

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90 percent of the animals you took in.

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That does not take into account any intake

policies, whether animal shelters provide

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euthanasia as a community service to

people who cannot afford to take their

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animal to the vet, which is becoming more

and more of a challenge for everybody.

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Um, it does not take into account

animal shelters that don't

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accept any cats or feral cats.

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Um, I like to call them free roaming

cats because I think a lot of cats

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who are dumped outside as part of

trap neuter release or return programs

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right now are not feral at all.

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I think they're perfectly

friendly cats that the shelter

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did not want to deal with.

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So they turned them away and we are

seeing this, you know, in our own

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backyard in Norfolk, Virginia, um,

our local shelter, our municipal

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taxpayer funded shelter essentially

stopped taking in cats and traps.

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If the cat you know, looks healthy to

the average person, then somebody must

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be feeding them and everything is okay.

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That is a complete opposite than what I

was, you know, my experience, especially

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in Chicago, where it gets to be so cold.

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And every winter, I would check, take

in free roaming feral cats with bits of

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their ears missing and frostbite scars

from frostbite and You know, beat up Tom

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cats and, you know, yes, they were alive

and somebody was feeding them, but they

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didn't get any veterinary care or any kind

of responsible guardianship from anybody,

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and I'm never going to be one of those

people who thinks that a cat outside.

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Taking their chances is better off

than a cat who is in a shelter,

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even if that means for that cat

that they're going to be euthanized.

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Because the reality is, and I know a lot

of people don't like to hear it, but when

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you put a cat back outside, just the fact

that they're spayed or neutered does not

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mean they're not going to die a violent,

terrible death, and most of them do.

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And at PETA, where we do take in, we're

honestly almost the last animal shelter

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to address the feral cat issue, so we do

spay or neuter feral cats on our clinics.

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For people who commit

to taking care of them.

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But for people who don't want them

around, um, of a lot of, unfortunately,

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we get a lot of referrals from

shelters that do not take them in,

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or veterinarians, or municipalities.

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And the cats that we take in

who are, you know, who are feral

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are not in good shape at all.

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You know, there's missing eyes, there's,

you know, severe upper respiratory

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infections, there's FIV, FIP, feline AIDS.

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You know, these cats are not...

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Contrary to what people

are told thriving outside.

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In fact, they're, you know, they're,

they're going to be hit by a car

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and they may not die as a result.

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They have urinary tract infections,

just like the cats we have as

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our companions in our home.

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And you know, what always bothers

me with this is that the same

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organizations who advocate keeping

cats inside are the organizations

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that are touting trap, neuter, return.

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And to me, these cats, the cats

who are outside are biologically

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identical to our indoor cats.

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It's our job to keep them safe.

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And certainly as an animal rights

person, I believe that wildlife...

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has an inherent right

to their planet as well.

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And we cannot deny the impact of free

roaming cats on wildlife populations.

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But what we're seeing is a sort of

push for trap, neuter return, because

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the shelters don't want to take in and

euthanize cats who may not be adoptable.

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And so that is causing a huge

problem because, uh, just because

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a cat is turned away doesn't

mean that cat is even sterilized.

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I mean, I would be willing to even

say, okay, if you're sterilizing the

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cat, but what we're seeing in our own

backyard and in communities across

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the country is cats who are just

refused entry and there's no effort

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to ensure that they won't reproduce.

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They're just, people are just being

told we don't take in healthy cats

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off the street and just put them back

because somebody's taking care of them

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regardless of their reproductive status.

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So essentially.

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The animal welfare community is promoting

the breeding of outdoor cats by, by not

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ensuring that these cats are sterilized

and with the veterinary workforce

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shortage right now, it's gets, gets

harder and harder and harder to get

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appointments for, for anybody, let alone

for, for free roaming cats in traps.

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So that's, you know,

the tip of the iceberg.

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DrG: Yeah.

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So what I, what we see is the issue to,

to your point, as far as with the numbers,

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if somebody brings in an animal and

says, you know, I want to surrender it.

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Well, why do you want to surrender it?

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Because X, Y, and Z.

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And the pound says, well, we don't have

room, but we'll euthanize it for you.

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Then it's considered an

owner requested euthanasia.

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It doesn't go into the numbers, right?

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So that's one way of manipulating numbers.

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There are places that will say,

I cannot adopt this animal, but

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I'm going to send it to this other

shelter, which is a kill shelter.

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And then we live released it.

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That's then becomes the

other person's problem.

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So there's a lot of manipulation

that can happen with numbers.

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Daphna: Absolutely, so

those are perfect examples.

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Absolutely.

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And we're seeing the same thing is

like, we're going to take in this cat,

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but we're not going to euthanize them.

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We're going to transfer them

to a group that does TNR.

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So the cat ends up being.

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you know, outside anyway.

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Um, there's certainly, there's a lot of

transfer to groups that call themselves

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rescue groups, but really are hoarder,

hoarder rescues, which I know you've

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covered in one of your previous episodes.

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We see that a lot.

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We actually have a running

list on our website at PETA.

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org for those who are interested.

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Um, it's cataloged by date and

jurisdiction and there are countless

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examples of, uh, municipalities releasing

animals to so called rescue groups that

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essentially just warehouse those animals.

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And then eventually the municipality

has to spend taxpayer dollars seizing

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the very animals that they transferred

to a rescue group just to keep their

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So called live release rates high.

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And so I think, you know, to me, this

lack of transparency is really, it's not

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just detrimental for the animals, which

is obviously my most serious concern.

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But I do think it sends a

message to the public that, um,

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that is not prompting change.

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And if we don't educate the public and

engage our communities in the need to

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spay or neuter and the need to support

their local admission shelter and to

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really educate themselves about the state

of affairs, because we've experienced,

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and I know this is a nationwide problem,

you know, a very difficult summer.

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You know, our people are animal

shelters and adoption groups

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are overwhelmed with animals.

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It's not, it's not that it's anything new.

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It just seems like it's

especially, um, taxing this summer.

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And I think part of that is because

you do have this kind of musical

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chairs as facilities referring you

to other facilities or giving you You

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know, lists of other facilities to

call and it's, it's, um, it's, you

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know, in my experience, especially,

you know, standing behind that

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receiving desk in a lot of situations.

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I'm not saying every single

situation, but in a lot of

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situations, those people are done.

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They are at the end of their rope.

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They're coming to your shelter.

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With that animal.

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They don't want that animal anymore.

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The bond has been broken.

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They want to get rid of that animal.

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I'm putting using their words, not mine.

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And you know what I learned behind that

receiving desk was that I'm getting that

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animal away from that person who doesn't

want that animal because nothing good

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is going to happen to that animal if

I force them to hang on to her or him.

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You know, our job is to keep the

animals safe and if those animals

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are not wanted, I'm not going to

Try to keep them with that person.

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I don't understand that mentality.

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Um, at PETA we do have a program

where we help people pay for vet care.

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We help people with food.

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We help people with, you know,

really anything and everything.

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And if it's a good home and I believe

that animal is happy and has quality of

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life, I'm going to dedicate resources

to keeping that animal happy because I

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know that's what the animal would benefit

from and what the human would want.

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You know, the human is not looking.

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to offload an animal.

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They're looking to keep an animal.

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But when an animal is brought to your

shelter and the people are, I mean, I

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have people tell me, you know, I can't,

I don't want to look at them anymore.

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My kids are not taking care of them.

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They're eating me out of house and home.

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I never forget a dog named

Scram who was named Scram.

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I mean, how do you name your dog?

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Scram and she was surrendered to

the shelter at five years of age

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because she could open the fridge.

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That's why they got rid of her.

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She got a wonderful home, but you

know, it's just like you, some

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people just shouldn't have animals

and that's the reality we live in.

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And I think the current state of

sheltering encourages, you know, barriers

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to intake, but not barriers for adoption.

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Let's give animals away for free.

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Open, clear the shelters.

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Anybody can come and get

any animal they want.

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They don't have to pay an adoption fee.

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It completely disregards the lifetime

commitment, the cost, and the time.

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I mean, the resources.

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I mean, the time and resources it

takes to provide loving, responsible

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care to an animal is a serious thing.

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You know, people should not be

encouraged to just get as many

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dogs for free as they can And then,

I am seeing barriers to intake.

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Adoption, you know, admission

fees, limited hours, waiting

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lists, you know, you try all of

the, you know, try Craigslist.

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What a disastrous, uh, advice,

you know, to put your animal

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on Craigslist where any...

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Or on Facebook.

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Or Facebook, you know, I mean, why?

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You know, why are you encouraging

people to do irresponsible things

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with their animals, you know?

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I'm, in my experience...

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experience and my opinion is that animal

shelter should serve as a safe haven.

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Our job as people who care about

animals is to keep them safe, to ensure

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that they do have a safe place to go.

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And if they are adopted, that their new

home is a good, loving, respectful home

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where they're treated as a member of

a family, not just kept in a crate all

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day long while somebody goes to work

or chained outside or penned outside.

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Or yelled at if they do something

undesirable or perceived, you

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know, I mean, we just need to be,

I think it's important for people

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to understand not just the state of

sheltering, but why it's important for

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them to really commit to an animal.

345

:

And, and I mean, not just money, but also

time and attention and quality of life.

346

:

You know, these animals did not ask to be

in our homes with us, we brought them in.

347

:

So it's, we owe to them to give

them a good quality of life.

348

:

DrG: I see on occasion when people will

will discuss about the 10 percent and

349

:

somebody will refer to it as an arbitrary

number, and then somebody will come

350

:

out mad saying, I can't believe it.

351

:

I take offense that you saying that it's

arbitrary, but it is arbitrary, right?

352

:

There is no actual data.

353

:

where that 10 percent came from and

what people don't understand is you

354

:

can have a shelter in a high income

affluent area, plenty of resources, tons

355

:

of veterinarians and low intake because

everybody has access to spay neuter so

356

:

there's not that much and they may be

able, crap, they may be able to have a

357

:

2 percent uh, you know, euthanasia rate.

358

:

And you cannot compare that to a shelter

that's going to be in a rural setting

359

:

with no veterinarians, no resources,

uh, either no veterinarians or the

360

:

lack for people to find affordable or

accessible veterinary care and then.

361

:

There is no spay neuter, so all

these people in rural settings have

362

:

all these large breed dogs that

are just reproducing like crazy,

363

:

and then what are they going to do?

364

:

They're going to try to

take them to the shelter.

365

:

What's the shelter going to do when

one of these large breed dogs has

366

:

10 dogs, 10 puppies, and now the

shelter has 10 times how many litters?

367

:

So.

368

:

You cannot expect that 10%.

369

:

And if you go to the actual no

kill page it will even say that

370

:

10 percent is not for everyone.

371

:

So best friends even acknowledges

this, that 10 percent is in fact an

372

:

arbitrary number just based on what

373

:

they expect should be

374

:

okay.

375

:

But that is what is not getting

translated, translated into society

376

:

is people don't understand that.

377

:

You know, that 10 percent

is not really for everybody.

378

:

Uh, you know, what's no kill

for one place, alleged no kill

379

:

for one place is not for, is

not feasible at all for another.

380

:

Daphna: Well, yeah, that's absolutely

right, but the other thing is that

381

:

I think the focus on numbers and

percentages has harmed animals in

382

:

ways we will never be able to measure.

383

:

If you, I think that there, there

are policies and there are decisions

384

:

that are made based on the desire

to maintain a percentage and, you

385

:

know, animals are caught in that.

386

:

And they suffer the consequences.

387

:

It is, as you say, of course,

every jurisdiction is different.

388

:

We all have different challenges.

389

:

There's rural versus urban, there's

affluent versus impoverished.

390

:

I mean, all of those things.

391

:

I'll just give you PETA's

animal shelter as an example.

392

:

Because we are open admission.

393

:

We do not charge people, we

do not turn anybody away.

394

:

We are very transparent about the

fact that we do euthanize feral cats.

395

:

We offer a free community euthanasia

service for people who bring us animals

396

:

at the end of their lives, and we were,

during COVID, we were, we were inundated

397

:

with animals in that situation because

the veterinarians were closed and people

398

:

wanted to stay with their animals and

they couldn't during COVID, and we were

399

:

the only way So even people who had the

money to afford euthanasia at their local

400

:

veterinary clinic came to us because

they were able to stay with their animal.

401

:

Whereas at their vet

clinic, they were not.

402

:

And unlike the, what you described,

if a shelter marks owner request

403

:

euthanasia in Virginia and owner

requests, euthanasia is not separate

404

:

from any euthanasia at your shelter.

405

:

So those are part of our numbers.

406

:

So we don't, so we also don't

just serve one jurisdiction.

407

:

We serve Dozens, if not

hundreds of jurisdictions.

408

:

So, you know, our numbers compared to

one small adoption agencie's numbers

409

:

that takes in, you know, 10 animals a

month, they can have a hundred percent.

410

:

You know, adoption rate, but our

numbers get compared to other facilities

411

:

numbers, regardless of their policies,

regardless of how many jurisdictions

412

:

they serve, regardless of whether

they're on, we're on call 24 hours a day.

413

:

We have someone on, two people

on call any given day, any day of

414

:

the year, Christmas, New Year's

Day, Thanksgiving, we're on call.

415

:

If there's an animal

who's been hit by a car.

416

:

And the local police won't respond.

417

:

They call us.

418

:

We'll go out.

419

:

All of that is part of

our euthanasia rates.

420

:

To me, you know, I could sit there and

go, well, I can't help those animals

421

:

because if I help those animals, then

my euthanasia rate is going to spike.

422

:

I'm not going to think about

what my percentage looks like.

423

:

I'm going to think about what

that individual animal needs.

424

:

That animal needs help.

425

:

I'm not here to You know, I'm

not here for good percentages.

426

:

I'm here to improve quality

of life and suffering.

427

:

Make the world a kinder place.

428

:

I think we're sending a dangerous message

to our society when we package these

429

:

things and 10%, 90 percent live release

rates, save rates, these are animals.

430

:

They're each individuals with

their own needs and personalities.

431

:

And a lot of them have been

already victimized by society

432

:

because they were discarded.

433

:

They were born unwanted.

434

:

They were dumped.

435

:

They have had five, six homes.

436

:

I mean, all of the dogs and cats I ended

up with had multiple people responsible

437

:

for them before I ended up with them.

438

:

And, you know, I just, I think one of

the biggest problems that we're facing

439

:

too, is that we're still, it's still

legal to go buy a dog at a pet shop.

440

:

That's insane.

441

:

To me, that's insane right now.

442

:

We've got, our shelters are overwhelmed.

443

:

Taxpayers are paying for.

444

:

Housing and, you know, vet care and

sometimes euthanasia of animals, we,

445

:

we're not doing things that make sense,

you know, and so I think the, the numbers

446

:

game, I do think it's a game, I think

it's, I mean, I think it's It's nonsense.

447

:

I think it's a shell game.

448

:

I think you can manipulate your numbers

to look any way you want, you know, if

449

:

you don't tell the truth, or you embellish

the truth, or you leave things out.

450

:

I think that the public can be

very gullible in that regard.

451

:

And that, but I think for me, if I had to

You know, one chance to give a message to

452

:

the average person is that look a little

deeper, you know, look a little deeper.

453

:

What does it mean?

454

:

What are their policies?

455

:

Who do they help?

456

:

Who didn't they help?

457

:

You know, I would love to have as part

of our statistics as a, as a, you know,

458

:

the animal sheltering community, for

lack of a better term, is how many

459

:

calls did you take where you said no?

460

:

How many animals did you turn away?

461

:

What percentage of animals did

you not take in that somebody

462

:

asked you for help with?

463

:

Because those animals don't just vanish.

464

:

They just don't end up

being part of your 100%.

465

:

But they still exist and

they still needed help.

466

:

And in my view, if, if...

467

:

If you're an animal shelter, especially

a taxpayer, you know, a taxpayer funded

468

:

animal shelter, and you turn animals

away, you have turned your back on animals

469

:

who need you and you have let them down

and you've let down your community.

470

:

And I feel very strongly about that.

471

:

I think that there are small adoption

groups that do wonderful work and they

472

:

have It's their right to take in the most

adoptable what they think they can, you

473

:

know, they're volunteering a lot of time.

474

:

They're working very hard and I commend

them and we work with groups like that.

475

:

But when we're talking about taxpayer

funded shelters, there has to be,

476

:

you know, like socially conscious

sheltering that like the socially

477

:

conscious sheltering model says.

478

:

There has to be a place in the

community that accepts all animals

479

:

and makes responsible decisions.

480

:

And having worked at a place

that had to make those decisions.

481

:

I mean, of course, you know, this

is not easy, you know, and that's

482

:

another thing that our communities

don't realize is the toll it takes on

483

:

people who work in animal shelters,

the toll it takes on veterinary staff.

484

:

Uh, I mean, it's, this is not easy work.

485

:

I mean, you know, we've all heard,

I could never do what you do.

486

:

I love animals too much.

487

:

Or, you know, this kind of nonsense,

completely oblivious to like the fact

488

:

that you lose sleep at night thinking

about, you know, an animal that you

489

:

came in contact with and feeling so,

so much compassion and so much love.

490

:

And, you know, wishing you could make

up to them what other people have done.

491

:

Um, So I, I think I, to me, the

percentages and the numbers have gotten

492

:

completely out of control and, and

they're meaningless because you can,

493

:

as you say, you can, you essentially,

if you pick and choose which animals

494

:

you take into your program, then

your percentages are meaningless

495

:

because you're just giving me the

percentages on the animals you took in.

496

:

What about the percentages of

the animals you didn't take in?

497

:

What happened to them?

498

:

Well, nobody knows because

there's no tracking of that.

499

:

You know, animals will get

hit by a car in the very.

500

:

parking lot of the shelter that rejected

them, and then the shelter takes them in.

501

:

You know?

502

:

Why?

503

:

Why did you have to turn the

person away to begin with?

504

:

If that person is frustrated and

temperamental, it's not rocket

505

:

science that that animal is in danger.

506

:

Even if you cannot house that animal

Long term, at least get that animal

507

:

away from the dangerous person and keep

them safe until there's a solution.

508

:

It's, it's not difficult.

509

:

This is very simple in my, in my view, you

know, but I, I think what I've seen over

510

:

26 years, 30 some years of being in this

field, 26 at PETA is just irreversible.

511

:

I hate to sound doom and gloom, but

somewhat irreversible, irreversible

512

:

damage of these no kill policies because

they're going in a direction that

513

:

means we have more animals than ever.

514

:

And we saw that even, you know, with

COVID where even larger organizations

515

:

were saying, You know, spaying and

neutering is not an essential service.

516

:

Well, I beg to differ.

517

:

I think spaying and neutering is the

most essential service that you can

518

:

provide for companion animals today.

519

:

And our clinics never stopped.

520

:

And, you know, we just did

check in outside, you know, but

521

:

there was a study that came out.

522

:

I don't, I don't remember the

source, but that there was a 2.

523

:

7 million animal gap in spay

neuter because of COVID.

524

:

And that, you know, that's, That's

part of that mentality that got spay

525

:

neuter at the bottom of the list.

526

:

And somehow, you know, the public has

been led to believe that the worst

527

:

thing that can happen to an animal

is euthanasia at an animal shelter.

528

:

And that is just not the truth.

529

:

I mean, we see worse things every

single day, as I'm sure you do too.

530

:

DrG: Yeah, I, I think going back a

little bit to where you said about

531

:

people that say, I couldn't do

what you do because I love animals.

532

:

It's like, like, we don't, right.

533

:

So my, I have a technician that actually

was, was sharing with me that somebody

534

:

told her that, and she got really upset.

535

:

And she said, I love animals too.

536

:

Why do you make an assumption that I don't

love animals just because I can be with

537

:

them, you know, when they're injured or

help them get better or unfortunately

538

:

sometimes have to be there when the

time that they need to be euthanized.

539

:

But yeah, with the, with the numbers game.

540

:

I just see it play out in a lot

of different rescues and a lot

541

:

of different shelters and not at

the fault of the shelter itself.

542

:

They're just, you know, their money comes

in from donations, their money comes

543

:

in from grants, and they have to keep

these donors and these grantees happy.

544

:

And if they cannot produce

the numbers that they want to

545

:

see, then that can potentially

affect how much money comes in.

546

:

I see people on social media that

will ask, is this place a no kill?

547

:

Because if it's not no kill,

I'm not going to surrender or

548

:

I'm not going to support them.

549

:

And they don't understand, you know,

somebody will say, yeah, it's not a

550

:

no kill because they say it's no kill,

but I took a kitten with a respiratory

551

:

infection and they euthanized it.

552

:

And they don't, they don't get it.

553

:

Like they may be getting 500 animals.

554

:

It can euthanize 50, and

there's still no kill.

555

:

50 animals, that's a huge number.

556

:

I mean, 10%, people don't understand

that's 1 out of every 10 animals.

557

:

can be euthanized, and it's

still considered no kill.

558

:

So I think that, you know, the, the

percentage, 10 percent sounds really

559

:

low, but if we look at it, it's

actually not that small a number.

560

:

Daphna: Right, it's not necessarily

that small a number, but I also, just

561

:

to, to address what you said about

these small shelters that, you know,

562

:

depend on donations, I mean, so, okay,

I mean, but, but there's no, There's

563

:

no harm in being honest, you know,

sometimes transparency is the answer,

564

:

you know, yes, we are, maybe our rates.

565

:

First of all, I don't think

that any, you know, reputable

566

:

shelters should subscribe to this.

567

:

Percentage stuff.

568

:

I just feel as if that that does

put you in a box where you have

569

:

to comply with an arbitrary number

that frankly puts animals in danger.

570

:

It just puts animals in danger because

you somehow put a roof on what you can do.

571

:

And that's, you know, for those

animals that then don't get your help.

572

:

That could be a matter of life and

death, and those animals can die,

573

:

maybe not at your shelter, but they

suffered and died, probably badly,

574

:

and you got to not claim them on your

numbers but You didn't help them.

575

:

And to me, that's, I mean, that's just

not the way that I would do things.

576

:

You know, I think that if I were to

choose, um, to be limited admission,

577

:

I would be extremely transparent

and supportive of the shelter in the

578

:

community that was open admission.

579

:

And I've seen shelters do that where

they say, you know, we can't take every

580

:

single animal that comes to us because we

are a nonprofit with limited resources.

581

:

But the municipal shelter

is across the way.

582

:

They're open admission and they will

take your animal, you know, and I

583

:

think that there has to be an open

admission shelter in every community

584

:

or animals suffer the consequences.

585

:

They get dumped outside, they get chained

up, they get penned, they get neglected.

586

:

And so I think putting ourselves

in this box of compliance with this

587

:

arbitrary made up number, you know,

um, that really at the end of the day

588

:

is meaningless because it does permit.

589

:

You know, a certain amount of

euthanasia, uh, is, is damaging.

590

:

But I also think sometimes if you have

committed to something and you didn't

591

:

meet your goal and you have donors who are

questioning you, tell them the stories.

592

:

Each individual animal has a story,

you know, and sometimes euthanasia

593

:

is the kindest thing that you can do

for them, you know, and, and that's.

594

:

That's part of the truth that

I think is really important

595

:

for donors to hear, you know.

596

:

I mean, our shelter is not a secret.

597

:

We, we are very open about our policies

and our donors know what our policies

598

:

are and those things, you know,

and those animal stories are told.

599

:

We tell them on our website, we

tell them in our quarterly reports.

600

:

If we have to euthanize animals for, you

know, for reasons that are Educational.

601

:

We want people to know, I think that

hiding things from the public is making

602

:

the public believe that they, they

don't have to change anything that

603

:

spaying and neutering is not an urgent

essential service when it is, it is

604

:

the single most important thing that

we can do for our animals and for.

605

:

Any animal, your neighbor's animal,

your friend's animals, spaying

606

:

and neutering is the answer.

607

:

It's prevention, but it's gotten lost

in this mix of focusing on the end, you

608

:

know, where the animals are, the shelter.

609

:

Well, why are so many animals

coming to the shelter?

610

:

That's the question we

should be collaborating on.

611

:

How do you not?

612

:

How do you prevent animals from coming

into the shelter by closing your doors?

613

:

But how to prevent so many animals

from needing sheltering services?

614

:

To me, that's the question.

615

:

Not.

616

:

You know, to, to make euthanasia

the, you know, ending euthanasia is,

617

:

is a, it's certainly a goal, but we

get there by ending the influx of

618

:

unwanted and abandoned animals who

are homeless and were born to animal,

619

:

you know, just because people didn't

make an appointment or didn't bother

620

:

to make an appointment or just didn't

prioritize sterilizing their animals.

621

:

The question is, why are

they here to begin with?

622

:

They're not wanted.

623

:

They need help.

624

:

If the shelter closes its doors and just

focuses on the animals that they allowed

625

:

in, you don't get the whole story anyway.

626

:

You know, the, what happened to all

those animals that you didn't take in?

627

:

That, I think, the public isn't even

informed enough to ask that question.

628

:

And with the way things are going

now, where you're seeing, you know,

629

:

media article after media article

about no kill policies going wrong.

630

:

Look at Austin, Texas, Atlanta,

Georgia, DeKalb, Georgia, Los Angeles.

631

:

You know, animals being

warehoused, dangerous dogs biting

632

:

volunteers and still being placed.

633

:

Animals being returned.

634

:

Animals going crazy in their cages.

635

:

Spinning and throwing themselves, you

know, from one wall to another, you

636

:

know, all of that is just a consequence

of just focusing on so called save rates

637

:

instead of individual animal welfare

and what every single animal deserves.

638

:

DrG: I worry about there are, there is

for sure at least one, uh, large county

639

:

facility here in Columbus that is supposed

to be open intake and they're not right.

640

:

They try to, and I think that sometimes,

you know, as you said at the beginning,

641

:

when somebody says I need to surrender

my animal, it is okay to say, why, why

642

:

do you need to surrender this animal?

643

:

Because they may say, They may say, my

dog has this ongoing problem, chronic

644

:

problem, I cannot afford it, I can't take

care of it, and I need it to be taken

645

:

care of, so as much as it pains me, I

need to give it to somebody who can do it.

646

:

And at that point, the shelter can

intercede and say, hey, we have

647

:

this fund, we have this group, we

have this shelter, we have whatever

648

:

resources to help you keep your animal.

649

:

And if that person is willing to put

in the time and effort, Yes, let's

650

:

keep that animal with that person who

cares so much that they were doing

651

:

something as difficult as parting with

them because they wanted them to have

652

:

a better life, but we see people that

are lying at the shelters saying I found

653

:

this stray because they know that if

they come in and say I want to surrender

654

:

this dog because I can't have it for

whatever reason, then they're going to

655

:

tell them no, whether it be like, okay.

656

:

I'm being evicted and I can't have

my dog and I don't know where to

657

:

go and I don't have where to take

it and the shelter is like, oh,

658

:

well, we can take it in three weeks.

659

:

Yeah, but I'm getting evicted tomorrow.

660

:

So I don't have three weeks.

661

:

And so then they'll go somewhere else

to another county and say, Hey, I

662

:

just found this dog is a stray and and

dump it or worse yet, abandon them.

663

:

Right, because there are so many people

that will just go to the shelter, the

664

:

shelter says no, they'll either leave

it at the door of the shelter, or worse

665

:

yet, these boxes of puppies that are

found, uh, like, either in the water,

666

:

like people will just throw them down to

get drowned, or leave them in the middle

667

:

of nowhere, in a, you know, just in the

woods, where they have no resources to

668

:

die a horrible death, like there are,

Serious consequences to your point, you

669

:

know, yeah, you're not counting those

animals as being euthanized by your

670

:

shelter because you never took them into

your numbers, but you are responsible for

671

:

those animals that died because you didn't

allow them somewhere somewhere to go.

672

:

Daphna: Absolutely.

673

:

And it doesn't mean, you know, it can

mean that you help facilitate somebody

674

:

else taking them maybe, but I do think

that that, you know, we are seeing

675

:

so many animals not accepted into

animal shelters and turned away and,

676

:

you know, nobody knows what happens.

677

:

There's no tracking mechanism.

678

:

There's no, uh, statistics

tracking of that.

679

:

And that's, you know, to me, that's,

You know, that's what, that's a huge

680

:

question mark, you know, what happens

to those animals that you don't take in?

681

:

You can report to your donors on the

animals you take in and that's fine.

682

:

But there, there's, right now

anyway, especially with cats.

683

:

I mean, we are seeing cats,

basically shelters saying, we're

684

:

not going to take cats anymore.

685

:

You know, we're not taking, and

that's, you know, in Virginia,

686

:

um, municipalities have to have a

facility for dogs, but not for cats.

687

:

So there are jurisdictions.

688

:

Where you call, especially rural

jurisdictions, um, and they just say, we

689

:

don't do cats, you know, and that's, you

know, what does that mean for the cats,

690

:

you know, and that's, that's a matter of

resources in a lot of situations, but in

691

:

situations where, um, taxpayers want to

serve cats and the local shelter makes

692

:

a decision based on, you know, Basically

statistics just to keep statistics

693

:

appealing, um, that might make donors

happy, but it doesn't help animals and

694

:

that's, I think to me, that's the most

outrageous thing is that especially as our

695

:

shelter, which is sometimes under fire for

our percentages because we do euthanize,

696

:

first of all, we euthanize as a service,

but we also do euthanize take feral cats.

697

:

So our rates don't look the same

as a, as a shelter that focuses on

698

:

taking adoptable animals on Lee.

699

:

And so when we take in animals

from our local municipal shelter,

700

:

people who call us from their

parking lot with an aggressive dog.

701

:

And saying, you know, this

dog broke my arm last year.

702

:

And, uh, actually, the dog I'm thinking

of was actually adopted from another

703

:

municipal shelter, which told me

that at the time of adoption didn't

704

:

exhibit any aggressive tendencies.

705

:

And I don't have any

reason to disbelieve that.

706

:

But that dog came to PETA for euthanasia

very You know, aggressive animal, you

707

:

know, and, um, what would have happened

to that dog if PETA were not there for

708

:

the person to call, you know, that's what

always gets me because we're in a, you

709

:

know, we're in Virginia, we're in Norfolk,

Virginia, and You know, what happens if we

710

:

were in somewhere, Ohio, where, you know,

I'm sure that the same amount of calls

711

:

and the same kind of calls would come in.

712

:

So I think the message to the public

is that we, you know, having an open,

713

:

true open admission, because I know

that there are a lot of places that say,

714

:

well, we're open admission, but that's

not true because they have a wait list.

715

:

They have an appointment based system.

716

:

They have, uh, admission fees that.

717

:

People either don't want

to afford or can't afford.

718

:

You have the situation with people,

you know, the housing crisis, people

719

:

getting evicted, or people who have

hidden their animals up until now can

720

:

no longer hide them or what have you.

721

:

Um, and so I think that if you're,

if you're open admission, To me,

722

:

that is, you're actually taking

in the animals who come to you.

723

:

It's not, yes, in three weeks and

50 later, I can take your dog.

724

:

Well, I don't have three

weeks and I don't have 50.

725

:

Yes, that person is not as responsible

as we would like them to be,

726

:

but that's why we exist, right?

727

:

Because it's not the dog's fault or the

cat's fault that they're not responsible.

728

:

So I think for the public.

729

:

It's really important to educate

themselves on what, you know, dig

730

:

deeper, what the policies are.

731

:

And most certainly if you have the time

to make an appointment, that's fine.

732

:

But in my experience, most people who

show up, they're not really inclined

733

:

to come back in three weeks or six

months or whatever the case may be.

734

:

DrG: And the spay neuter problem

is a huge issue, and now we're

735

:

seeing some, some places saying

that they're going to eliminate the

736

:

requirements for spay neuter before

adoption, which completely baffles me.

737

:

Like, we spent years and years and years

trying to get shelters to spay and neuter

738

:

before adoption so that they would not be

contributing to their own problem, and now

739

:

because there's no resources, instead of

saying, How do we increase the resources?

740

:

Well, let's forget about the resources.

741

:

Let's just release the animals

because we need them adopted, right?

742

:

We don't, we can't hold on to them.

743

:

And then what are we doing?

744

:

We're releasing these animals.

745

:

Unsterilized so that then they can come

back with the with the same problems

746

:

and when I started the the rascal unit

It was because I have kind of like

747

:

a problem solver mentality, right?

748

:

So I see a problem and it's like

what's the root of the problem?

749

:

I don't like to put band aids at the end.

750

:

I like to kind of like stop the stop

the bleeding at the beginning So I

751

:

saw when I was working with a regular

veterinary clinic that did a lot of

752

:

rescue work that most of these animals

were coming from rural Ohio because

753

:

there were no resources, and then the

shelters in rural Ohio didn't were

754

:

not able to take care of these animals

so then they were ending Columbus.

755

:

So that's when my idea came up 17 years

ago, I'm going to get a truck and I'm

756

:

going to go to rural Ohio and I'm going

to fix their animals over there right so

757

:

that They, so they take care of their own

problem, and then we are not overwhelming

758

:

and oversaturating the places in Columbus.

759

:

And it took a while for people to buy

into the importance of it, but now, you

760

:

know, we shouted it at everybody, spay

and neuter your pets, and people listened.

761

:

Like, how hard is it for people to

listen to, to certain things, but people

762

:

listen, and now people are like, we

need it, we want it, we, we want to take

763

:

care of our animals, and then we turn

around and say, Sike, we don't have the,

764

:

the resources for you, we don't care,

like the shelter doesn't, doesn't care,

765

:

whatever, we're kind of like taking a

step backwards, and it is, and it is

766

:

such a, I don't know, a huge detriment

to animals and to shelters and to the

767

:

problem of overpopulation, we're, we're

making, instead of looking for solutions

768

:

to make, To, to fix the problem.

769

:

We're literally working

to make the problem worse.

770

:

Daphna: I could not agree with you more.

771

:

I mean, we're literally,

we're breeding animals.

772

:

I mean, that's what, you know, when

you turn a cat away, who's fertile

773

:

and you put them back on the street,

regardless of whether they're fed

774

:

or not, they're making more cats.

775

:

And when you, you know, when you're You're

not prioritizing spaying or neutering

776

:

the animals that you place in homes.

777

:

You're making more cats.

778

:

You're making more dogs.

779

:

I mean, that's, there's

really no two ways about it.

780

:

And it's just, it actually means that

the shelters that are, you know, supposed

781

:

to be dedicated to Solving this problem,

you know, not just putting a band aid

782

:

on it, as you say, are, are, as you

say, I mean, we are, it's a detriment.

783

:

It's to the detriment of animals.

784

:

We're actually, we worked so hard,

you know, we worked so hard to,

785

:

you know, get, get the message

out there and educate people.

786

:

And now it's like, well, There's a

shortage, so don't worry about it,

787

:

you know, but there are, there are

other ways to, to solve this problem.

788

:

And so we're with you.

789

:

I mean, we have four spay, neuter

clinics, they're mobile, they go into

790

:

impoverished or low income areas and

people come from other states, even

791

:

over the border to, to use our clinics.

792

:

And that, I mean, I wish every

community had a low cost spay neuter

793

:

and other vet services clinic,

but spay neuter is our focus.

794

:

And I cannot emphasize spay neuter enough.

795

:

I mean, spay neuter is, is the answer

in, through prevention, is that you're

796

:

preventing these animals from being

born into a world that's bursting at

797

:

the seams with unwanted ones, ones

who are already neglected, abused,

798

:

discarded, abandoned, homeless.

799

:

Struggling to survive on the streets

and now with the shelter policies being

800

:

such a, you know, such a hot topic

and the no kill policies that have

801

:

been so detrimental and we are seeing

some pushback on the no kill policies.

802

:

We're seeing a bit of a tide there

where, you know, um, you know,

803

:

jurisdictions are understanding.

804

:

Uh, there was an article recently

in DeKalb, Georgia that, you

805

:

know, the county manager, I

think they call him a CEO there.

806

:

You know, it's talking about rescinding

the no kill policies and of course,

807

:

because so many people don't even

know what that actually means in

808

:

practical terms, there's pushback,

but the condition that the shelter

809

:

are so poor that the Department of

Agriculture in Georgia has repeatedly

810

:

inspected and cited the shelter.

811

:

There's actually an oversight

body in Georgia and in Virginia,

812

:

there is too, thankfully.

813

:

So a lot of, you know,

one of the other things.

814

:

Most people don't realize is that

most states don't have a, uh,

815

:

a body that oversees shelters.

816

:

And so really they self police.

817

:

And so when you have, you know, animals

stuffed in the bathroom or dangerous dogs

818

:

in crates or, you know, animals in crates

and not being walked on a regular basis.

819

:

I mean, a crate should not be,

uh, you know, treated as a kennel.

820

:

I mean, a crate is a

super temporary place.

821

:

To use, you know, for an animal upon

intake, but no animal should spend days

822

:

or weeks or months or years in a crate.

823

:

I mean, imagine just sitting in a

closet for the rest of your life.

824

:

You know, that's cruelty.

825

:

To me, that's cruelty to animals.

826

:

You know, you are depriving that animal

of basic necessities of life, but

827

:

also of joy and stimulation and the

opportunity to, you know, do anything.

828

:

You know, you're basically storing them.

829

:

They may be alive, but they're not living.

830

:

DrG: And we see pictures of, like, the

animal hoarders, and then, you know, many

831

:

of these animals are kept in small cages.

832

:

We look at puppy mills.

833

:

These animals are living in crates,

in cages, and we think that that is

834

:

horrible, and we think that there

needs to be better laws to protect

835

:

and to prevent that from happening.

836

:

And then we turn around as rescues and

shelters and say, well, we have three

837

:

more dogs today, and we have nowhere

for them to go, so we're just going to

838

:

go and make three small crates and have

them live in the same conditions that

839

:

we may have even rescued them from.

840

:

Yeah, you know, they may have

been cases like neglect cases.

841

:

And then we take them out of one

neglect case into another neglect case.

842

:

I really tried.

843

:

Yeah, I hate when people say I

rescued it from this bad situation.

844

:

And then we say, Okay, well, these

are the things that it needs.

845

:

Oh, well, I can't do any of that.

846

:

Well, you didn't rescue it.

847

:

You just moved it from

one crappy situation

848

:

to another crappy situation.

849

:

Like we have to be a Are we, are we

truly helping them or are we self

850

:

serving and helping our ego by saying

851

:

I rescued it, right?

852

:

Because we love to say,

853

:

yeah, we love to say, I rescued

this, I saved this, I insert,

854

:

you know, grandeurship word here.

855

:

But are we actually doing what

we are saying that we're doing?

856

:

You know, people to me will

say, how many cats do you have?

857

:

I have two cats.

858

:

Oh, you can have more.

859

:

No, but I can't.

860

:

Right?

861

:

Because I have two cats because

this is what I choose to do.

862

:

Right.

863

:

There are, there are many animals that

I see out there that I could potentially

864

:

give them a, a great home, but could I?

865

:

Do I have the time?

866

:

Do I have the, you know, am

I, am I really helping them?

867

:

And then am I doing it because I want to

bring a new animal into my home, or I just

868

:

want to say I helped it, or I rescued it?

869

:

Daphna: Yeah, and I think, I think

there's, you know, it bears repeating

870

:

that one of the things that we are seeing

as a result of these no kill policies

871

:

is, is animals who are not safe for

placement, uh, being placed in homes.

872

:

And even though the, the facility knows

of a bite history, and I, that is.

873

:

Um, that, that there's no excuse for that.

874

:

I mean, I, you know, behavior

euthanasia is a tough issue.

875

:

And you talked earlier a little

bit, um, when we were offline

876

:

about veterinarians refusing to

euthanize animals for aggression.

877

:

And we do see that with our shelter.

878

:

We do euthanize dogs for aggression

when they've been turned away from

879

:

other shelters or veterinarians who,

you know, you know, for whatever

880

:

reason, they just choose not to do it.

881

:

Um, it's not easy to,

to do that, obviously.

882

:

But I, I.

883

:

I want people to remember that when

an animal is aggressive, that animal

884

:

is anxious, insecure, unhappy, afraid.

885

:

A lot of times it's fear based aggression

and you're not doing that animal a favor.

886

:

Um, if you have exhausted your resources

and, and ideas and time, and you're

887

:

not in a position to try to work

with that animal, just, putting that

888

:

animal in somebody else's lap is, is

really not doing that animal a favor.

889

:

You know, animals are

individuals just like us.

890

:

And I think most people don't, you

know, I, they don't, just because

891

:

animals adapt and overcome and live

in the present doesn't mean that

892

:

they don't experience stress when

they're separated from their families.

893

:

And, you know, I see people, you

know, do things that are just

894

:

thoughtless that cause their

animals psychological distress.

895

:

They're not being.

896

:

malicious, but they're not being

thoughtful either, you know, and I think

897

:

it's important for people to realize

that, you know, animals who are elderly,

898

:

for example, or have health issues that

are difficult or behavior issues that are

899

:

difficult for their original guardian to

deal with, are not going to adapt well to

900

:

a transition where they have to adapt to a

whole new person who may be less committed

901

:

to solving what their problem is.

902

:

So I think in in aggression cases,

euthanasia is It's sometimes the

903

:

most humane option for that animal,

not just for the humans as well.

904

:

And certainly we, as a, as a community,

an animal sheltering community, when

905

:

we put dangerous animals into our

communities, we are discouraging

906

:

people from adopting from shelters

because people then think, and I'm not

907

:

saying that that's my opinion, but.

908

:

People perceive certain dogs, you

know, as having quote unquote issues

909

:

or problems or they're defective.

910

:

And I hate when people say that

because it's not the animal's fault.

911

:

And sometimes it's a very simple thing

that the animal just hasn't been afforded.

912

:

But sometimes it's truly dangerous.

913

:

And that animal could kill another

animal or could kill a child or

914

:

seriously harm a child or adult.

915

:

And.

916

:

By releasing animals like that

for adoption, we are not building

917

:

trust in our communities.

918

:

We are telling our communities that

the animals we place in homes are

919

:

dangerous, and then those people,

the next dog they get is going to

920

:

be from a breeder or a pet store.

921

:

And, you know, as someone who has spent...

922

:

You know, their lives trying to combat

homelessness and overpopulation.

923

:

I take very literally that if you buy

one dog from a pet store or a breeder,

924

:

you are depriving an animal in a shelter

of an opportunity to find a home.

925

:

And it's, it's really that simple.

926

:

You know, I, I take that

very personally to this day.

927

:

I mean, I.

928

:

You know, I don't rejoice when I see

a purebred puppy in the dog park.

929

:

I don't rejoice when I

see a litter of puppies.

930

:

To me, that means that some animals at a

shelter somewhere are losing their chance.

931

:

Um, or, not in the shelter,

an animal anywhere.

932

:

You know, because shelters are closing

their doors more and more, but we

933

:

have so many wonderful, wonderful

animals who need homes and I would just

934

:

really encourage people to not buy.

935

:

Every breed rescue has, you can get

any breed you want from a rescue.

936

:

you any species, any breed.

937

:

So I think there should be a moratorium

on breeding and selling and that people

938

:

should be educated about the truth

of overpopulation and homelessness,

939

:

not being made to feel better with,

you know, fictional percentages.

940

:

DrG: I have a huge issue with like

breed specific legislation, right?

941

:

I don't think that animals

should be categorized as a whole.

942

:

I think that each individual

animal needs to be looked at.

943

:

But when we, as you said, when we adopt

out a particular dog of a breed that

944

:

people think can be dangerous, and we

know that that dog has a propensity

945

:

for injury, and we just work with it to

kind of work around its triggers, but

946

:

then we release it and Basically make

a irresponsible, uninformed decision

947

:

and that animal does cause harm.

948

:

What are we doing?

949

:

We are feeding into the, into the

beliefs of the people that want

950

:

the breed specific legislations.

951

:

We are telling them, you know what?

952

:

You were right.

953

:

You said this dog should not be

adopted and we adopted it anyway

954

:

and now it mauled somebody.

955

:

And, you know, we, we are In that

sense, also causing our own problems.

956

:

Daphna: And, and look, I mean, no one can

deny that there are certain breeds who

957

:

are populating shelters more than others.

958

:

And I mean, to me, I don't think

that requiring, starting by requiring

959

:

that certain breeds be sterilized.

960

:

I mean, some people would call

that breed specific legislation

961

:

and maybe have a problem, but.

962

:

I mean, we do pit bulls for free on our

spay neuter clinics because those are

963

:

the dogs we see in the field as most

frequently chained, penned, neglected.

964

:

Beaten, yelled at, abused, I, you know,

I, we did not create the problem, we did

965

:

not breed those dogs, but we recognize

that those dogs are, if you look at our

966

:

local shelters, I'm not going to put

a percentage on it because it won't be

967

:

accurate, but the majority of the dogs

are of bully breeds, and so I, I don't

968

:

see a big problem with legislating to

get them fixed, or to require people to

969

:

be of a certain age to have one, or to,

you know, I, I think that that's, That's,

970

:

that's trying to fix the problem, but I,

I do think that there's, now we've gone

971

:

all the, to the other opposite way where

it's like, no, no, it's not the breed.

972

:

It's not the breed here.

973

:

Have one, have two, have three.

974

:

And you know, some animals

are not behaviorally sound.

975

:

You know, and for them,

euthanasia is a humane option.

976

:

You know, you're not harming them.

977

:

You are keeping them safe, and you

are keeping the community safe.

978

:

And I do think that there is a

huge, huge, uh, perception problem

979

:

with dogs in shelters when, when

somebody reads in an article about

980

:

a child whose nose was bitten off

by an animal adopted from a shelter.

981

:

That person isn't going to

adopt an animal from a shelter.

982

:

We are doing damage.

983

:

We're hurting our own cause, as you say.

984

:

So we're, you know, by not recognizing,

you know, I hate to see people in

985

:

denial about, I mean, Certain breeds

can do more harm than other breeds.

986

:

That's just a fact.

987

:

It's not condemning the breed.

988

:

It's simply saying, you know, that dog,

you know, maybe if they do attack, maybe

989

:

they'll do more damage than another dog.

990

:

I, I, I just, I feel like, you know, we

we've gotten to a point that some of the

991

:

things that animal shelters are doing are

not sensible, you know, um, and I'm not,

992

:

not just talking about the turn away.

993

:

Policies or the, you know, the barriers

to intake, but the placement choices

994

:

just to keep adoption rates high

and the clear the shelters and let's

995

:

celebrate an empty kennel, well, I

don't know where those animals went.

996

:

I, my brain always goes to, well, are

they in good homes or are they just like.

997

:

You know, I don't want to sound like a

pessimist, but realistically speaking,

998

:

as someone who worked at a shelter, you

know, animals get returned all the time.

999

:

Just because they left doesn't

mean they're not coming back, and

:

00:59:06,575 --> 00:59:09,015

it certainly doesn't mean they're

going to stay in that home forever.

:

00:59:09,405 --> 00:59:14,575

Even when you screen, even when you

charge money, even when you do a landlord

:

00:59:14,575 --> 00:59:19,825

check or a vet check, you still have

You know bad adoptions and that happens,

:

00:59:20,215 --> 00:59:23,535

but I think the shelter's job is to try

to make sure that it doesn't and I've

:

00:59:23,535 --> 00:59:29,075

seen over my last couple decades I've

really seen shelters relax the adoption,

:

00:59:29,085 --> 00:59:32,235

you know, oh, we don't do landlord

checks anymore because people lie.

:

00:59:32,475 --> 00:59:33,235

Oh, okay.

:

00:59:34,065 --> 00:59:36,765

I mean, called due diligence.

:

00:59:37,185 --> 00:59:40,265

We have to do, but you know, I

don't want to go to sleep at night

:

00:59:40,265 --> 00:59:44,075

thinking that maybe I put an animal

in a bad situation, you know.

:

00:59:45,130 --> 00:59:50,000

And I think, I think there's just a whole

movement focused on keeping animals out

:

00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:54,600

of shelters, whether it's by putting them

out of the door to anyone who'll take them

:

00:59:55,180 --> 01:00:01,260

or just not accepting them, you know, but

we've gotten to a point where euthanasia.

:

01:00:01,855 --> 01:00:07,395

Which used to be treated as it should as

a very sad byproduct of the overpopulation

:

01:00:07,395 --> 01:00:12,265

crisis, something we can stop if we work

together, something we can stop if we

:

01:00:12,265 --> 01:00:17,225

spay or neuter and focus on prevention,

we have abandoned that sensible line

:

01:00:17,225 --> 01:00:22,515

of thinking and we're going towards,

you know, essentially regressing and

:

01:00:22,515 --> 01:00:28,735

making more animals, placing animals

who are not placeable in unsuspecting

:

01:00:28,735 --> 01:00:32,375

people's homes, decreasing the number

of people who are going to come to

:

01:00:32,375 --> 01:00:36,125

our shelters, increasing the number of

animals who need, you know, who need to be

:

01:00:36,125 --> 01:00:40,315

surrendered and decreasing the number of

animals who are taken in by the shelter.

:

01:00:40,315 --> 01:00:43,335

So I hope that change is coming.

:

01:00:43,685 --> 01:00:47,155

I think that some of these no kill

failures and the things that we are

:

01:00:47,155 --> 01:00:52,175

seeing across the country, um, Will

instruct public officials elected

:

01:00:52,175 --> 01:00:57,055

officials to make some changes and it's

may not be popular, but it's necessary

:

01:00:58,685 --> 01:01:03,105

DrG: Yeah, the Another thing that these

rescues are not realizing is kind of

:

01:01:03,105 --> 01:01:06,735

like the liability that they get into

right because they they are ultimately

:

01:01:06,735 --> 01:01:12,155

liable If they are adopting an animal

that that causes an injury especially

:

01:01:12,305 --> 01:01:16,970

the the people that say good with

kids Are, are they good with kids?

:

01:01:16,970 --> 01:01:20,270

You know, like you're putting, you're

putting all this information into

:

01:01:20,270 --> 01:01:24,290

there and currently there, there

are some lawsuits out there against

:

01:01:24,290 --> 01:01:25,740

rescues because of that, right?

:

01:01:25,740 --> 01:01:27,350

Can you tell us a bit about some of those?

:

01:01:27,610 --> 01:01:31,820

Daphna: Well, I don't, I don't know that I

have any specific information about loss.

:

01:01:31,870 --> 01:01:36,370

I mean, I know that there are some,

I didn't study those, um, You know,

:

01:01:36,370 --> 01:01:41,210

specifically, but I do know that there,

there's, I know that there was an award.

:

01:01:41,210 --> 01:01:43,920

I think it was several million

dollars to a volunteer in Los

:

01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,480

Angeles who was attacked by a dog.

:

01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:50,740

She went to walk and the dog had been

at the shelter at the Los Angeles,

:

01:01:50,820 --> 01:01:54,510

uh, one of the Los Angeles city

shelters for several months and did

:

01:01:54,510 --> 01:01:58,610

some permanent damage to her arm

and, uh, eventually was euthanized,

:

01:01:58,710 --> 01:02:02,850

you know, anyway, so I, I mean, uh,

just because the dog was being held.

:

01:02:03,260 --> 01:02:08,150

Uh, did not mean that he was quote

unquote saved, but, um, but yeah,

:

01:02:08,150 --> 01:02:12,440

I know that she sued the city and I

think the city awarded her I something

:

01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,710

like $7 million is what comes to mind.

:

01:02:15,710 --> 01:02:20,290

But, um, I, I think, yes,

there are liability issues.

:

01:02:20,530 --> 01:02:22,330

It's not just that you get sued.

:

01:02:22,335 --> 01:02:24,700

I mean, you know, lawsuits

are time consuming.

:

01:02:24,700 --> 01:02:25,600

They're expensive.

:

01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:29,770

They take you away from your mission,

you know, and I, I just think, to

:

01:02:29,770 --> 01:02:32,140

me, the simplest answer is the truth.

:

01:02:32,190 --> 01:02:36,640

You know, if an animal has a bite

history, tell the person, I mean, if

:

01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:40,780

it's a Chihuahua, it's a whole different

story than if it's a Rottweiler, you

:

01:02:40,780 --> 01:02:44,020

know, and so you want to, I mean, you

want to be transparent and you want to

:

01:02:44,030 --> 01:02:48,810

be truthful, you know, sometimes you

might have people who are willing to

:

01:02:48,810 --> 01:02:52,760

work with a small dog who has some,

you know, anxiety related issues.

:

01:02:52,780 --> 01:02:57,690

But I think That honesty is the best

policy, not to sound cliche, but I

:

01:02:57,690 --> 01:03:01,730

think when we mask things and don't tell

people things and they're surprised,

:

01:03:01,940 --> 01:03:03,940

yes, they are more likely to sue you.

:

01:03:03,940 --> 01:03:07,360

And for good reason, you know, because

you were dishonest because you didn't tell

:

01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:14,415

them, uh, you know, that an animal, Could,

had the potential to harm or kill you.

:

01:03:14,415 --> 01:03:16,975

We had a case in Virginia Beach,

Virginia, a few years ago.

:

01:03:16,975 --> 01:03:21,225

The dog was a pit bull type dog and

he was, you know, was one of those

:

01:03:21,245 --> 01:03:25,485

poor dogs who was homeless for a long

time and just bounced around from so

:

01:03:25,485 --> 01:03:27,355

called rescue to so called rescue.

:

01:03:27,355 --> 01:03:31,205

He ended up with a place called, uh,

I believe Forever Home in Virginia

:

01:03:31,205 --> 01:03:36,235

Beach, where they were also discovered

to use shock collars on, on their dogs.

:

01:03:36,645 --> 01:03:41,655

And he was adopted to a woman who had a

90 year old mother who lived with her.

:

01:03:41,655 --> 01:03:46,025

And the day after he was adopted

by this woman, he attacked and

:

01:03:46,035 --> 01:03:50,185

ultimately killed her 90 some year

old mother who died in the hospital.

:

01:03:50,645 --> 01:03:53,975

Uh, and he still had the shock collar

on when he was placed in their home.

:

01:03:54,375 --> 01:03:56,355

And I, I don't know that they are suing.

:

01:03:56,355 --> 01:03:59,025

I haven't heard that they are

suing, but, uh, I wouldn't be

:

01:03:59,025 --> 01:04:00,195

surprised if they choose to.

:

01:04:00,195 --> 01:04:01,195

But what a, what a...

:

01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:08,050

What a, what a terrible life

changing trauma to go through to,

:

01:04:08,110 --> 01:04:09,730

to go through something like this.

:

01:04:09,750 --> 01:04:14,530

I mean, we talk about it, but you know,

if you think about what that must be

:

01:04:14,530 --> 01:04:21,290

like is to watch a dog, you know, attack

and not let go of your elderly mom.

:

01:04:21,290 --> 01:04:26,100

I, I, I can't even go there in

my brain of how, you know, life.

:

01:04:26,315 --> 01:04:30,385

altering an experience that

would be, and that dog should

:

01:04:30,385 --> 01:04:32,245

never have been placed, you know?

:

01:04:32,525 --> 01:04:35,345

So after that, the dog

was euthanized, you know?

:

01:04:35,345 --> 01:04:39,385

Well, we could have spared the

dog and the people some suffering,

:

01:04:39,425 --> 01:04:45,375

and I think liability is one thing

that, um, facilities don't consider

:

01:04:45,375 --> 01:04:49,685

enough, but it is a real thing, and

certainly for municipalities as well.

:

01:04:50,910 --> 01:04:55,170

DrG: Yeah, and when there's so many

animals that are healthy, mentally and

:

01:04:55,170 --> 01:04:59,370

physically, sitting in shelters for

months and months and months and years,

:

01:04:59,850 --> 01:05:06,160

not finding a home, it just begs the

question of why some of these animals that

:

01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:11,410

are not safe are being adopted out, you

know, there, there really is, I feel that

:

01:05:11,610 --> 01:05:16,910

if we were in a world with never ending

resources, then perhaps we can spend more

:

01:05:16,910 --> 01:05:18,640

time working on some of these animals.

:

01:05:18,660 --> 01:05:22,310

But in the end, can we truly

bring some of these animals back?

:

01:05:22,550 --> 01:05:28,130

Um, I did an episode on behavioral

euthanasia where a very good owner

:

01:05:28,140 --> 01:05:31,990

had to euthanize two dogs in different

occasions because of aggression.

:

01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,600

And she went to a behaviorist and she

did all the things that she needed to do.

:

01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:39,590

And her whole family worked with this

dog and they loved this dog immensely.

:

01:05:39,850 --> 01:05:43,285

And the behaviorist was the one that

said, You have done everything that

:

01:05:43,285 --> 01:05:47,805

you can, and unfortunately, for lack

of a better term, his brain is broken.

:

01:05:48,175 --> 01:05:51,865

He is in a constant state of

suffering and you have to let him go.

:

01:05:52,015 --> 01:05:52,645

And she did.

:

01:05:52,795 --> 01:05:53,050

And it was

:

01:05:53,050 --> 01:05:58,095

Daphna: Kudos to that behaviorist for

being Yeah, the bear of really sad news.

:

01:05:58,095 --> 01:05:59,325

But that's important.

:

01:05:59,325 --> 01:06:02,805

It's so important for them to

tell the truth because you're

:

01:06:02,805 --> 01:06:04,245

sparing, you know, that dog.

:

01:06:04,545 --> 01:06:07,665

I mean, and seeing it from the

dog's point of view, the dog is

:

01:06:07,665 --> 01:06:09,195

in a constant state of suffering.

:

01:06:09,555 --> 01:06:12,975

We had a dog that we tried to work

with who came from a cruelty case

:

01:06:12,975 --> 01:06:15,935

that I loved very, very, very much.

:

01:06:16,205 --> 01:06:17,195

And um.

:

01:06:17,900 --> 01:06:22,520

We did go to a behaviorist with her,

and she said, and I mean, this was a

:

01:06:22,550 --> 01:06:27,800

PETA dog, not my personal dog, and the

behaviorist said, you know, she's afraid.

:

01:06:27,990 --> 01:06:29,260

She's afraid all the time.

:

01:06:29,500 --> 01:06:31,760

She's in a constant state of fear.

:

01:06:31,770 --> 01:06:37,160

The dog was afraid to go outside,

you know, um, she was a big dog.

:

01:06:37,510 --> 01:06:40,730

So, you know, what do you, what do you do?

:

01:06:40,900 --> 01:06:44,300

You know, you, sometimes, yeah,

sometimes you cannot reverse

:

01:06:44,300 --> 01:06:46,160

it, and it's hard to accept.

:

01:06:46,170 --> 01:06:48,200

But I think, um.

:

01:06:48,945 --> 01:06:51,715

Well, I, you know, I, I'll

listen to that episode.

:

01:06:51,715 --> 01:06:56,205

I'm, I'm, I know that a lot of people go

through that and it's very, very painful.

:

01:06:56,445 --> 01:06:58,075

It, it must be very painful.

:

01:06:58,085 --> 01:07:03,245

So, but it's good that the behaviorist

told her the truth because that, that

:

01:07:03,245 --> 01:07:07,045

decision is hard, but it needed to

be made for all the humane reasons.

:

01:07:08,290 --> 01:07:11,700

DrG: Yeah, it definitely, you know,

they felt safe with the dog to a

:

01:07:11,700 --> 01:07:14,410

certain point, but they did not

feel that anybody else was safe.

:

01:07:14,410 --> 01:07:16,650

Like this dog was, again, in

a constant state of suffering.

:

01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:21,230

And, and one of the sad parts is that

before going to the behaviorist, they

:

01:07:21,230 --> 01:07:24,270

went to their regular vet and their

regular vet would not help them.

:

01:07:24,550 --> 01:07:26,850

The regular vet was like,

well, there's medications.

:

01:07:26,850 --> 01:07:29,065

There's You know, things that you can do.

:

01:07:29,075 --> 01:07:30,825

There's behavioral modifications.

:

01:07:30,825 --> 01:07:31,845

Well, can you help me with this?

:

01:07:31,845 --> 01:07:32,475

No, no, no, no, no.

:

01:07:32,505 --> 01:07:33,404

I'm not a behaviorist.

:

01:07:33,404 --> 01:07:34,265

I can't help you with this.

:

01:07:34,485 --> 01:07:36,455

But you can go and find

somewhere to do it.

:

01:07:36,795 --> 01:07:41,404

And, you know, it, it keeps

these people without options

:

01:07:41,445 --> 01:07:43,005

and without a humane option.

:

01:07:43,245 --> 01:07:47,410

Daphna: And in a state of some kind

of false hope or something, too.

:

01:07:47,970 --> 01:07:48,440

DrG: No, exactly.

:

01:07:48,510 --> 01:07:53,320

And then it also increases the guilt

that they have because they are

:

01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:56,920

at that point where they want to

help their, their dog and they have

:

01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:00,720

somebody saying, no, if you euthanize,

then you're this horrible person.

:

01:08:00,730 --> 01:08:02,480

You're just using that word.

:

01:08:02,620 --> 01:08:03,850

You're killing your dog.

:

01:08:04,140 --> 01:08:05,370

You're not giving him a chance.

:

01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:10,560

And, you know, yeah, I, I really, I

always recommend people to, to go to the

:

01:08:10,580 --> 01:08:14,350

behaviorists at the university because

They're not there to euthanize things.

:

01:08:14,350 --> 01:08:17,250

I mean, if they were going to do that,

they, they wouldn't have a job, right?

:

01:08:17,340 --> 01:08:17,720

Right.

:

01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:21,350

They want to work with all these

animals, but they are very realistic

:

01:08:21,460 --> 01:08:25,910

in expectations and they need

to help the, the owners and they

:

01:08:25,910 --> 01:08:27,560

need to help the, the animals.

:

01:08:27,790 --> 01:08:30,660

Daphna: Yeah, and and just a word of

caution to people, of course, look

:

01:08:30,660 --> 01:08:34,460

for a credentialed behaviorist like

at a university, you know, because any

:

01:08:35,229 --> 01:08:37,160

anybody can say they're a dog trainer.

:

01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:39,890

There's no regulations

or licensing or anything.

:

01:08:39,890 --> 01:08:42,450

So you want to make sure that

you're looking for someone who

:

01:08:43,010 --> 01:08:47,500

actually has the education and

credentials that can assist you.

:

01:08:48,220 --> 01:08:52,490

DrG: Yeah, I tell people that if your,

your pet is afraid, is fearful, and

:

01:08:52,490 --> 01:08:55,750

somebody comes at you with a shock

collar, run the other way, right?

:

01:08:55,979 --> 01:08:58,460

Because the worst thing that we

can do to an animal that's afraid

:

01:08:58,740 --> 01:09:01,120

is make it afraid, more afraid.

:

01:09:01,690 --> 01:09:05,279

And eventually you go from

being afraid to fear aggression.

:

01:09:05,340 --> 01:09:09,210

So every time you shock them, you are

increasing the risk that that animal

:

01:09:09,210 --> 01:09:11,359

is going to actually break through.

:

01:09:11,359 --> 01:09:12,620

You know, you have fight or flight.

:

01:09:13,510 --> 01:09:16,250

So they fly it enough, eventually

they're going to fight.

:

01:09:16,670 --> 01:09:21,850

So just, you know, yeah, working with

somebody that, that, that is properly

:

01:09:21,850 --> 01:09:23,790

trained for that kind of behavior.

:

01:09:24,170 --> 01:09:25,380

Daphna: Yeah, absolutely.

:

01:09:25,440 --> 01:09:26,210

Absolutely.

:

01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:27,510

Gosh, fear.

:

01:09:27,529 --> 01:09:32,660

I mean, fear is such, you know, I

mean, just put yourself in there.

:

01:09:33,035 --> 01:09:36,315

place to, I mean, you know, when

you're afraid of something, do you

:

01:09:36,315 --> 01:09:38,325

want to get electrically shocked?

:

01:09:39,184 --> 01:09:43,395

I mean, it just, it, you know, it just

doesn't make any sense, you know, to, to

:

01:09:43,415 --> 01:09:48,654

terrify or punish an animal for a behavior

that they're doing for their own reasons.

:

01:09:48,654 --> 01:09:53,565

Even if humans don't understand those

behaviors, they, they, they have a reason.

:

01:09:53,904 --> 01:09:55,205

We just don't know what it is.

:

01:09:55,215 --> 01:09:59,795

So look for someone who has the

background and the education to try

:

01:09:59,795 --> 01:10:01,925

to understand what it is at least.

:

01:10:03,525 --> 01:10:06,420

DrG: So, thank you very much for

being part of this interview.

:

01:10:06,460 --> 01:10:11,200

I hope that the people listening at

least leave with an understanding

:

01:10:11,230 --> 01:10:15,660

of what the terms are, and are less

judgmental of shelters and humane groups

:

01:10:15,660 --> 01:10:19,090

and human organizations that are doing

that and start trying to push animals

:

01:10:19,090 --> 01:10:22,870

to go from one place to another, not

knowing if they may be taking them to

:

01:10:22,870 --> 01:10:26,930

a rescue hoarder, you know, make sure

that you're working with legitimate

:

01:10:26,930 --> 01:10:31,020

rescues and that you're doing things in

the best interest of the animals because

:

01:10:31,020 --> 01:10:33,030

that's ultimately what we're here for.

:

01:10:33,535 --> 01:10:38,715

Um, so, uh, if people want to, want to

find information about the, the no kill

:

01:10:38,725 --> 01:10:42,575

movement and the issues that are happening

with the no kill movement, how can they

:

01:10:42,575 --> 01:10:44,175

get information from your organization?

:

01:10:44,375 --> 01:10:45,015

Daphna: Oh, sure.

:

01:10:45,015 --> 01:10:45,345

Yeah.

:

01:10:45,345 --> 01:10:47,595

If you guys just want to come to PETA.

:

01:10:47,595 --> 01:10:50,985

org and just put it in the

keyword search, there's a lot

:

01:10:50,985 --> 01:10:52,605

of information on our website.

:

01:10:52,605 --> 01:10:59,375

We have, uh, information on, you know,

busts of hoarder rescues and, uh,

:

01:10:59,415 --> 01:11:07,540

incidents involving Facilities that, um,

use no kill policies and we have a blog

:

01:11:07,700 --> 01:11:14,290

about, you know, we certainly about the,

the divisive term that no kill and, uh,

:

01:11:14,300 --> 01:11:19,140

just, you know, where we are in, in our,

in what the state of affairs is today

:

01:11:19,170 --> 01:11:23,559

and what you can do to help change it

and what makes a good shelter and just

:

01:11:23,559 --> 01:11:27,520

the basic terms, and so I invite you all

to come and visit with us at PETA.Org.

:

01:11:28,485 --> 01:11:28,985

DrG: Fantastic.

:

01:11:28,985 --> 01:11:32,365

Well, thank you very much again for

joining us and to everybody that's out

:

01:11:32,365 --> 01:11:35,465

there do what's right and thank you

for listening and thank you for caring.

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