Welcome back to Lending Leadership: The Mortgage Pros—your go-to podcast for honest, unfiltered conversations about growing your mortgage career and leading at the highest level.

On today’s episode, we opened up about one of the most pivotal (and misunderstood) transitions in the industry: moving from being a successful loan officer to stepping into a leadership role. If you’re thinking about taking the leap from originating to managing or leading a team, this is the episode you can’t afford to miss.

We dove deep into the real-life challenges of going from loan officer to leader—how it’s not a “next-level” for everyone, why personality fit matters, and the truth about compensation and workload. We reflected on the industry-wide leadership shortage and why many high-producers struggle in management positions. From the pitfalls of riding your own pipeline to the ego-checks required to lead successfully, we covered it all. We also explored the tough moments of leading peers who were once your direct competition and how to build a team culture rooted in service, not just numbers.

Key Takeaways:

1. Leadership Isn’t the “Next Step” for Every Top Producer: We can’t emphasize this enough: just because you’re a top-producing loan officer doesn’t mean your next move has to be leadership. Not everyone is cut out to manage people, and there’s nothing wrong with choosing to excel as an LO. In fact, many who try to make the leap end up less happy and sometimes less successful.
2. The Skillset for Great Origination Isn’t the Same as for Great Leadership: As we discussed, being a great originator takes hustle and ego—you’re in control and you can grind your way out of a bad month. Leadership, on the other hand, requires humility, patience, long-term consistency, and a genuine interest in empowering others. It’s a slower burn and a completely different mindset.
3. Servant Leadership and Ego-Checking Are Non-Negotiables: Success in leadership requires putting others first, checking your ego at the door, and practicing servant leadership. It’s about helping your people get on the leaderboard—not just staying at the top yourself. If you can’t let go of being “number one,” leadership won’t be satisfying or productive.
4. Be Ready for Less Money (and More Work)—At Least at First: Don’t make the move thinking you’ll immediately earn more or work less. The reality is, overrides and management compensation often don’t match what top LOs earn personally until much later—if ever. Plus, you’ll likely work more hours and shoulder greater mental load, especially at the onset.
5. Consistency, Vulnerability, and the Willingness to Grow Matter Most: From holding the line equally with friends and former competitors, to taking honest feedback, to investing in your own development (sometimes with a coach), the best leaders thrive on ongoing learning and consistent, fair standards. Micromanaging or slipping into favoritism—intentionally or not—can be disastrous for team culture.

We hope today’s episode clears up some of the myths around “climbing the ladder” and helps you clarify your own goals and motivations. If you’re already in leadership and have stories or lessons learned, or if you’re considering the jump and want to talk through what to expect, we’d love to hear from you!

Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share—so you never miss an episode of Lending Leadership: The Mortgage Pros.

Robert, Tom, and Dave

Hey, everyone out there in podcast land. Welcome to the next exciting episode of Lending Leadership with the Mortgage Pros. Robert Fillyaw here with Tom Mills and Dave Holland. What's up, fellas? How are we?

Good. How are you doing? I'm good, man. Hot.

I'm good. I'm rocking the, rocking the backwards hat today because I, I need my wig busting. I need my haircut. So gonna gonna go a little informal today.

That's alright. We don't always keep the same formal.

More often than not, it's the exact opposite of formal. Right?

What are we talking about today, Robert?

I'm so glad you asked, David. Today, we're gonna be talking about going from loan officer to leader, what that looks like, and probably more importantly, what no one tells you about that transition, what it looks like, and, you know, where where some of the pitfalls are, what some of the challenges are. We've all done that. Right? We've all originated and then moved into leadership roles, and it's not always exactly what you think it's gonna be. That's fair to say?

Well, I I think the first thing I'll say to that is I don't know nobody should think that, like, that's the next step in order to advance your career. It doesn't have to happen. You don't have to lead loan officers. Like, you know, I've I've still peep I've heard people say that before. Like, you know, I've done this so long. I have to take, you know, this step. You you don't. Absolutely don't.

First and foremost. Because if you if you're not doing it for the right reasons, you're probably not gonna do it right and probably not gonna succeed at it, quite frankly.

Yeah. Everyone wants to be a manager at some point, you know, to get out of loans because it can be tough. But it's dealing with personalities and LOs can be even more challenging. And not everyone has the right temperament or personality for it. Let's let's be real about that.

I would make the argument that 90% of top producing hellos, which is usually who tries to make this leap, don't have the temperament and aren't the right people for it. And, honestly, guys, when we we've talked a lot about a severe lack of leadership in our industry. That may be why because we're trying to take people with, you know, high levels of production and fit them into this leadership piece, and it's not a natural fit for them.

Yeah. They're gonna work on their loans first because a a lot of people are producing branch managers. Right? So they have a raging pipeline. They got LOs coming at them for questions, needing help on on files, and what are they gonna work on first? Their own stuff, their own fires, generally. So it's it's tough. It's tough to do both.

Yeah. And I think, Robert, you said it maybe. I think it it is why. There's a there's a lack of leadership in our industry. I don't think it may be. I think it's the the primary reason why. You're absolutely right. You know? Tend to be top producers.

And, you know, I think what it is, leaders don't necessarily have to be managers or leaders of people, and there's peers that are leaders amongst the Salesforce, amongst groups that we've been in that don't manage people. But amongst their peers, they're a leader. How they represent, how they speak, they're brilliant, the ideas, how they share, that doesn't mean that they should even, you know, manage people. Because, you know, magic people being responsible for people or, you know, even when you shift your world of your whole livelihood and and well-being being responsible, you know, other people and what they're able to do when you get a if you ever shift out of production, you know, it's it's another world.

It's hard to get back in production too. Sorry. It's hard

to get your

once you step out of that world, it it's hard to get back into it and get your referral partners back and your customers and your realtors. It's it's difficult.

Yeah. Yeah. It it's it's a it's a almost like a trap. Right? Like, thinking that because you can close loans really well and you're a top producer, the mindset is that that equates to you can lead people in to to do the same, and it's not. It's not like, leadership is not an extension of production. It it it's a completely different mindset and a completely different way of going about everything. And I think to do it really Dave, you've done frankly, you've done a good job, honestly, of being able to retain your production while having the leadership piece. Like, when I moved it away from it, I couldn't have done both.

Or or what what would have happened is I would have been mediocre at at both, and I wouldn't have excelled at one or the other. And I think that sometimes, like, is that really what you want? That's almost a disservice to one side or the other of the business. Right? The other thing just real quickly is the juice isn't typically worth the squeeze. Like, how many originators, top producing originators do you guys know that have moved into that leadership role and they actually go backwards in income? Because the reality in most cases is that override that they're gonna make, it's gonna take 10 deals to close in that leadership role to equal one of their deals to close on their own. Like, the it just it doesn't equate. So when when you first Tom, when you got out of originating and stepped over into the leadership side, what do you remember what it's been a long time for you. Do you remember what caught you off guard most? What was most surprising to you?

I can't even say that because I had a little different path. You know, I I was leading a team two years in in the business. You know? So I can't say, like, I had I built I was a good I was a top producer, absolutely, two years into the business when I started doing that. But I I was that that peer leader, right, that I literally had the that who's coming with me moment. I'm gonna go start a team, and then I did. But I was that pure leader that I didn't know at all how to be a leader. I knew so I was a natural leader. You know? Sports teams just, you know, kinda there.

But what I've learned is, like, being a natural leader doesn't mean you're naturally a good leader or a and there's a there's a difference between somebody that's a trained, educated leader and somebody that's just, like, has these natural tendencies. Natural ability.

You were just confident, Tom.

You just I was extremely confident. Yeah. And, guys, it wasn't until

Cocky.

To to I mean, halfway through my career that I started really like, not that I started figuring out how to be a better leader, but that I started figuring out there was better ways to figure out how to be a better leader. And I went and saw coaching, and I went and saw development into that. I I was always really critical and things like that, and I would shift my mentality. I will tell you so I'll tell you, like, the the biggest thing that kinda caught me off guard, you know, and you have to learn, to be really, I think, a great leader is you're when you're a loan originator, your or your your income's tied to sales, you can you just you know, you're in a bind, just go grind. You know what I mean? I I gotta work extra hours. I gotta make extra more calls. I gotta do and it's really actually it's a beautiful thing about being a loan. So, like, you can dig out really, really fast because you're in full control of that.

You know? Go to work twice as much. Go make twice as many calls. Have a choice make twice as many offers. You get twice as many deals. It's that stuff was always it was always easy mindset to me. You know? It took me a while to understand that I did, in fact, have the same impact as a leader. I did. It's just so much smaller, and and it's so you have to do it so much more consistently in it.

And you don't you don't see it like that. It's not like you just put in this week, and then there's the result. It's the slower burn. It's a slower burn. But you you build a culture and you realize, like, you are impacting this. You are encouraging these people. You are, you know, you are creating an an an atmosphere that people are learning, that they're learning from one another, that people are thriving, that, you know, you are building that that culture of competitiveness and collaboration, and and you see the fruits of that labor, but it takes a while. You know? That that's what I would I remember going through times when, you know, I'm in one of those.

Like, I gotta dig out. I gotta make some money, and I couldn't turn it real fast. You know? Because I'd moved I'd moved out of production at that point and, you know, just moved back. You know?

Something that surprised me, and don't take this the wrong way, Ellos, out there on podcast land is we are a bunch of demanding assholes sometimes. Right? It didn't, click for me, and I was the same way. Right? I I was tough. I I was tough on my managers. I was tough on my processors and underwriters. And until you're actually managing people, you don't realize how demanding, especially top, performing loan officers can be. So when you when you wanna manage LOs, be careful what you wish for because it can be tough.

It can be tough. It's it's funny that you say that, Dave. We we have someone on our ops, a leader on our operations side who worked with me when I was an originator. She was an underwriter when I was an originator, and now she's a leader in our operations side. Obviously, I'm a leader at the company, and she like, she's told me this. She hated me when I was the originator despite could not stand me because I was an arrogant asshole. And now I'm, you know, complete not completely different, but a lot different. And it's it's just completely a a different, you know, mindset of that originator versus leader.

So, yeah, that's that's funny that you mentioned that.

Well, I've mellowed so much from ten fifth ten, fifteen years ago. Even five years ago, I've mellowed because I know I know how to control situations better. I know how to solve Yeah. Yeah. But but but then I've I've I feel it's, you know, the processor's paying, the underwriter's paying. I get it because I see it from both sides now. So managing, managing an operations team, managing LOs is not for the you know, I think a lot of people who wanna be a manager, you should really take a hard look at yourself and take some sorta personality profile test to see if it's in your character because there's nothing for everyone.

Yeah. Don't don't try to make yourself that. And, you know, what do you what do you guys let's talk about that. What do you guys think are some of the characteristics of somebody that that makes them, like, maybe, you know, says they're destined for for for being a leader? What you know, let's throw a couple of things around. Like, first thing that comes to mind is, I know, you know, you have to put others first.

Yeah. I was gonna say, like, to to me, leadership is about service.

Right? Yep.

We we talk about leaders eat last, servant leadership. Like, you have to let's be honest. Right? As originators, there's there's a fair amount of ego in this business and being the top producer, and we wanna be the Scotsman guy. I was the number one producer. Like, my name was number one on the list at every company that I worked at when I was originating. Right? And when you make that shift, you have to be able to check that and and kinda tuck it away. And now it's about helping those in your charge get on that list and building them and growing them. And that's that's not an easy task for everybody.

You you

need to check your ego at the door.

You

you really do. The three of us talk about that a lot, and I think we're all good at it most of the time, but sometimes, you know, it flares up. But, yeah, you gotta you gotta check your ego at the door because if both both the LO and and the manager come in hot with an ego and agenda, that's not gonna be a good call.

It's gonna be fist cuffs. Yeah.

What do

you what do you always say, Dave? Stay humble, stay hungry? Yes.

Is

that what you're always preaching to us?

Stay humble, stay humble.

Get a little full of ourselves?

Yep. It really comes down to relationships. I mean, you know, honestly, guys, I mean, I I think the three of us are good leaders. Right? But take the relationships that we have, that we've formed, that we rely on every day that they make us good leaders and have the team that we have, and we're not great leaders all of a sudden. You know? So I think it comes down to you know, I think when you look at originators that end up going to leadership, you know, what did they what did they leave their assistant like or assistants like? You know? Were were they you know? I I I would venture to say that if they don't do a well a good job of leading that, you're probably not gonna really do a good job of leading originators, because it's, you know, it's still leading people, motivating people, inspiring people. You know? You and sometimes it's tough as as, like, as originator because, you know, your assistant's driving, and sometimes you're on the golf course. So you you know, they have to see you. They have to see that you're working.

They have to respect. They have to, know the hustle, know the work that you put in, look up to you in that sense, because you you you probably it'll transition over when you go to managing people too. You know, the doing versus delegating, let let's focus on the word empowerment. You know? You know, since we talk about that a lot because I think that's a big thing in becoming a leader. You know? Some people know how to do things, so they don't know how to teach people, empower people to do anything. I think there's a little little couple minute piece there that we have.

You know, guys, one of the other things that I think as we talk about, you know, kinda some of the the unforeseen challenges and things that, maybe aren't thought about is it's just the difference from, you know, as an LO being kinda in control of everything. Right? Like, it's it's all about you. And just like you said, Tom, if if you needed to go out and grind, you could. And, like, you were kinda in control of it where as you move into that leadership, you're not as in control as everything. You have to delegate a little bit. You have to lean on to other people and and be able to, you know, kinda let go and count on them. That can be challenging for for top producers or for any producer, really.

Yeah. When you're so used depending on yourself and yourself only or your immediate staff to then put your trust in a half a dozen or a dozen LOs, that's that's definitely a mind shift for sure.

Yeah. I think I think that's what comes back to that service leadership too. Right? Like, you you if if you have the right mindset, then you'll sow into them. And it it's it's more about helping them grow and, you know, not as you don't mind giving it up as much almost if that makes sense.

Yeah. I'm looking at the big picture. I mean, if you have that, like, I can do this quicker myself mentality, you're not having a big picture towards where you want your business to go. Because, yes, you can absolutely get that done quicker. I'm sure. You know? But what is that really doing? How are you really how are you making that person feel? Are you empowering them? Are you teaching them? You know? And then as you may have done it quicker that one time, what about the next 100 times? And if you had to say, hold it with the one only the one time, empower somebody to take that over. You then didn't do it. You saved a lot of time.

And people don't they don't they don't look in into into that, and that's that has to come into, like, the pride in developing people. And then when you develop them, you empower them, and and you see you see how people rise up when they're given that, you know, when they're given when they receive that that trust, from from their leadership and feel empowered, that's when you really get people to kinda, you know, really, really rise above for you and really go above and beyond.

It's interesting that you bring that up, Tom. I was literally right before this on a call with a team who has just brought on a new loan partner, and we're working on some training and development and some leadership of that loan partner and them letting go of some stuff and delegating. And the conversation that I had is I said, guys, this isn't flipping a light switch. It's we're gonna work on a sixty day window to go from where you're at now to where we're talking about the end goal's gonna be. And what I need you to understand is you're gonna work harder and put more time in in the next sixty days than you would if you just did it yourself. That's the absolute fact because training and development takes time and energy and effort. However, when we get to the back of this sixty days, the time freedom that it's gonna give you, it's an investment. It's gonna be well worth it for the long term.

And back to earlier point, some people just aren't cut cut out for it. Some people wanna be a solo LO, no team. Right? Some people wanna process their own loans. A lot of

people should do that too, though, Dave. Like Yeah.

No doubt. There's nothing wrong. Like, there's nothing wrong.

I've I've had LOs come to me and say, hey. I wanna take the next step. I want LOs under me, and I've challenged them. Like, let's talk about what you're actually asking for. Like, let's really look at it to see if this is really what you want. And more times than not, when we talk through it, they're like, yeah. I think I'm good. I think I'm gonna stay.

That's not trying to dissuade them, but the the reality is if that's truly what you want, I couldn't dissuade you. Right? Like, it it would be your path, and you know it's your path. I do think that when we I I think your why comes a lot of this. Right? And this is maybe a different side of this conversation. Why would you do this? Why would you go from being a a originator to a top producer? And I think that comes down to the why. Are you trying to build something bigger than yourself?

And let's be clear on this conversation. If you wanna become if you wanna go from LO to a leader, don't have the mindset either I'm gonna make more money right out of the gate because you'll probably make less money. Yep. You're not gonna work less. You know? It's not it's it's not a place to go hide out and, you know, duck out and and work work less. You're probably gonna work more. It's probably gonna be more demanding in in some cases. So, for people looking to duck out and work less and make more money, that's usually not the case, especially at first.

What about those instances where you transition from an originator to a leader, and now you're leading your peers. You you went from being one of the guys to now you're the quote, unquote boss. Right? Like, that can be a challenge.

It can be a little sticky, especially if you don't you know, if they were direct competitors or you know, they don't respect you or if you're younger. You know, that that that can be a little that can be a little tricky. I mean, we've all done it.

It's gonna be my whole career. I I I when I, you know, started a team, it was guys that was my peers, and it was friends. And I brought friends into the business, and everybody we work with, I'm I'm friends now. You know? And and I think it's it's actually an easy it's a really easy divide. You just you have to be consistent. You have to be who you are. You have to be, you know, you have to be, you know, clear and honest, and and then you can communicate with people. And and even though your friend they're your friends, they understand it's business.

And, you know, you can you can separate it a little bit. But is that what you were getting at? Like, the

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's I think it's probably I think it's probably the the greatest, I don't know if example is the right word, but the greatest time when check your ego at the door is probably most proficient. Right? Because if if you let that that title go to your head and you try to, you know, lead because you're the boss instead of lead out of transparency and consistency and and really, you know, trying to influence and help grow whoever you're leading. If you have that ego, it's gonna blow up in your face. It's not gonna work well. You know, one thing

Really bad.

That I've always tried I heard a long time ago, and I've always tried to lean into. You know, we talk about a manager or a leader. This is something that I was told and it stuck with me. Processes, things are managed. Right? People are led, and I've always taken that away, and it kinda reverted back to that. Like, if you you almost never hear me say manager. I'll say they're managing the pipeline. They're managing the closing process.

They're leading the processors. They're leading the closers. Mhmm. I think that's a big difference in mindset.

So one question when you transition from LO into management, what's one mistake leaders make when they're managing their former peers or or friends? Like, what what's something that sticks out to you?

Yeah. I I can think of a couple of examples where I've, like, I've seen this, and it's, you know, maybe not even in the lending world. I've seen it in the real estate world. You know, it it's where you're competing against those in your charge. Maybe you're cherry picking leads that come in and taking the best for you yourself. There's, you know, there's an agent that you and whoever you're leading are both, you know, trying to go and and get like, you you have to backseat yourself in those situations as a leader, honestly. And if you aren't in a position where you can do that yet, you're probably not ready to leave, frankly, is my thought on it. But that that that's a big mistake that I've seen people make.

I think a big mistake that people make, is they, you know, because they're friends with somebody and say you have a team, 10 people, or close friends with two, you tend to tell them things that they shouldn't really be privy to. And and then, you know, comments are made, and then people feel like you're not really as confidential about their personal information or things like that. I've seen I've seen that. Does that, you know, blow up with with teams before where because people are kinda buddy buddy, they they let people know other people's business, and that's really

You're not being consistent. You're playing favorites. Yeah. People feel that. You may not even realize you're doing, but people can feel that. And that is that can be a disaster culturally.

It can be not not even you know, what Tom said is is a major thing, but it could it could be something as simple as accountability. Right? Like, you have a different level of standard and accountability to one of the originators, that you ride harder because maybe they're not as close than you do for someone else. Right? Like, that consistency in leadership is pretty pretty key. Yeah.

And you you just don't wanna make, you know, you don't wanna make, you can be a leader without making people feel like you're above them. You know? Yes. You you it has to be terms like we and, you know, the team. You have to show and embody that, but, you know, you you have to really, you know, you you you have to really learn how to, you know, be with your team, you know, in one sense, and and not above them, but it is sometimes realized that this doesn't this this isn't really pertain to them, you know, and keep things separate.

You do a really good job of that, Milzy. And, honestly, when I first met you, that was one of the concerns. Like, that that was just a feeling that I had, but, one of those things where I was wrong. You do a really good job of being on the level and, you know, not not positioning yourself above. So kudos to you for that.

But in the same respect, if I could, you you got you you gotta hold the line on some stuff with LOs. Right?

Yeah. No doubt.

Or or you'll get you'll you'll get run over by your team.

When you're when you're not flexing, like, you're above holding the line, it becomes a whole lot easier. It's just some mutual respects there. It's like, hey, man.

I I think it goes back to the consistency also. Right? Like, it's you're not you're not doing this because I said to do it. You're doing it because this is the positive impact it's gonna have on your business. Let me show you and teach you why. Like, let me explain it to you. You know, that's that's one of the thing like, check your EO at the door. Right? Like, you've you're gonna do this because I said to do it. Absolutely not.

Like, how as you guys as originators, have you ever had a leader said you're gonna do this because I said to do it? That's the that's the last thing I'm gonna do at that point. Right? Explain to me why I should do it and how it's gonna help and impact my business, and you'll get the buy in a hundred times. Check your ego at the door. So you've got that. You're an originator, or, you know, maybe you're a manager and you've got that originator that is dead set that this is this is the shift they wanna make. This is what they this is their next chapter. What are some tips to to put out there to to make sure that they do that successfully? The actual shift, the the transition. What have you guys seen that that works really well? And maybe the flip side, what you know, as that transition happens, what hasn't worked?

Instead of saying, I wanna build my team, and I wanna have 10 people. You know? Think about what do you want your team to look like. You know? And the we're the type of people that you wanna manage. We're the type of people that you're committed to serving and that you believe are gonna contribute to the culture. Either may you you already have maybe amongst your your your small team, you and your assistants, compliment that culture, but not not hurt that culture. And I think that's the biggest thing. I think what I saw people, you know, they they get so fixated on I have to recruit. I have to recruit and they bring people in that, you know, they don't they don't bring anything additional to even if they bring production or revenue, you're you had this vision that you wanted your team to look like this, and those two people you just brought in do nothing to meet that vision, and that relationship is probably not gonna be what you want it to be.

You're not it's would you hire great people and and people that, like, I this is the profile of a person I wanna help. This is the way I want them to come. I want them to be focused on their careers, committed to their fam. When you hire the right people, leading is a lot easier. I I will absolutely say that. It it is a lot easier to lead committed people, driven people, goal oriented, people that wanna be the best they can be in their life, it is it's kinda easy to lead them, really.

No question. And we we have a rule that we joke about. We don't hire assholes. Right? But

Oh, that's a lot.

But to Tom's point, committed LOs who are students of their crafts that every day they're trying to get better. Those are those are easy people to manage, and and and to work with day. And they're and they're a pleasure they're a pleasure to work with.

Right? Absolutely. I

mean, we we covered some of the stuff, Robert. I mean, check your ego at the door. Mhmm. You know, be prepared to work longer hours, make less money. Now I'm trying to

One thing one thing we didn't we we didn't touch on yet that I wanna touch on, like, you have to be really vulnerable and open to feedback and Yeah. Adjust and grow and change from it. You leadership's not for the weak guys. You you can't like it. Sometimes it's gonna punch you between the eyes. You can't lead in a vacuum. You've got to be open to, criticism, and you you gotta be receptive to it and look for ways to get better from it. And that's not always the easy that's something I've struggled with, you know, on my journey as a leadership is the criticism and actually taking it to heart and figuring out how I could become better and how I could learn and grow from it.

I I also think, have a leader you admire and you look up to because, you know, if you don't, who you who you trying to, like, measure to? Who are you you know? And you don't even have to know that role model, that person to to be a a role model. Maybe you do. And if you do, that's amazing because you should learn from them, and and and and take what you learn and and and be a sponge to that.

I like it. All good stuff, guys. Let's, let's wrap this one up. Good good session. I think a lot of good content out there. So, you know, we talked about, the skills that make you the great LO aren't necessarily the skills that make you a great leader. And, frankly, just top producing LOs, the next step in your career, probably the next best step is probably not being a leader, and that's okay. Right? That's cool.

Servant leadership, check your ego at the door, some big takeaways that I have. What what are some of the biggest takeaways you guys have?

You stole all of them, Robert. Oh, crap. Yeah. Checking your gear at the door, you know, listening more, being you know, listening to your LOs and your operation staff, taking constructive criticism in a positive way, always learning, you know, reading, growing, coaching. You know? Get getting the coach really helps.

And, I'll I'll go to your quote, Robert, manage processes, lead people.

I've I've lived by that for a long time. So everyone out there in podcast land, thanks for joining in on this episode of lending leadership with the mortgage pros. Hey, if you have made the jump into leadership and have a lesson that you've learned along the way, share it with us. We'd love to hear about it. Or if maybe you're thinking about getting into leadership and you have questions or, you know, wanna wanna talk more about it, hit us up. We'd love to chat with you. Don't forget to smash that like button and, subscribe to us so you don't miss an episode. For Dave Holland and Tom Mills, Robert Fillyaw here.

Y'all have a great day. Thank you. Bye y'all.