Disordered eating is sadly a common co-occurring symptom of ADHD. Many of us have gone through decades of not understanding why we have battled with these challenges, and then after we receive a late-in-life ADHD diagnosis, we're able to understand why it presented itself. This is a powerful conversation that focuses on how emotional regulation plays a vital part in preventing and treating eating disorders.

This week's guest is Thomas Midgley, a behavioural and cognitive psychotherapist (CBT) and dietitian specialising in eating disorders.

Having worked in the field for more than 18 years, Thomas has a deep understanding of the delicate balance between body image, emotional health and the challenges neurodivergent people face when it comes to disordered eating.

Kate and Thomas spoke about:

• Disordered eating vs eating disorders: why these important distinctions matter – especially for anyone with ADHD or autism.
• Emotional regulation in recovery: how emotional regulation plays a vital part in preventing and treating eating disorders.
• Compassionate therapy: how DBT and compassion-focused therapy support emotional wellbeing and recovery.
• Parenting and emotional resilience: how parents can balance validation and resilience when raising neurodivergent children.
• Neurodivergence and eating disorders: the connection between ADHD and autism and the increased risk of eating disorders.
• Compassion in treatment: How compassionate, non-judgmental therapy helps us understand and manage our emotions effectively.

Timestamps:

• The difference between disordered eating and eating disorders (2:08)
• Neurodivergence and eating disorders (4:51)
• The importance of Emotional Regulation in understanding and treating eating disorders (7:12)
• Balancing validation and building resilience in parenting (22:59)
• The Role of Compassion in treatment (30:14)

Connect with Thomas via his website, thebodyimagetreatmentclinic.co.uk

Resources Mentioned

If you or someone you know is struggling with eating disorders and wants neuro inclusive support, start with these websites:

• www.beateatingdisorders.org.uk
• www.firststepsed.co.uk
• www.bodyimageclinic.co.uk
• www.twomorebeenthere.com

Look at some of Kate's ADHD workshops and free resources here.

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Kate Moryoussef is a women’s ADHD Lifestyle & Wellbeing coach and EFT practitioner who helps overwhelmed and unfulfilled newly diagnosed ADHD women find more calm, balance, hope, health, compassion, creativity, and clarity. 

Follow the podcast on Instagram here.

Follow Kate on Instagram here.

Find Kate's resources on ADDitude magazine here.

Mentioned in this episode:

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Herb Tender Rise & Shine

So Thomas Midgley, welcome to the podcast.

Great to have you here.

Thank you very much for having me.

I feel honored.

Yeah.

So first of all, you know, this conversation we hear a huge amount about, we do hear the co occurring traits of adhd and very often if we're working in this, this sort of sphere, I hear a lot that there has been disordered eating happen know throughout childhood, adolescence into adulthood and they've been passed from pillar to post and unfortunately not had the ADHD or the autism diagnosis.

And I think it would be really great to kind of like go back to basics so people can understand first of all a bit of the language so we can understand, you know, the right language to be using.

I've always used disordered eating, but I wondered what is there a difference between disordered eating and eating disorders?

Yeah, I mean eating disorders are diagnostic criteria that people kind of like boxes that a certain cluster of symptoms fit somebody in and those boxes then enable treatment services, enables medication if depending on the individual, and also enables research.

But obviously like we find with neurodivergence a lot the boxes don't work brilliantly in lots of other ways.

It's because lots of people transition or they have bits of both and other elements and you can almost look at.

So a way to think about it almost is on a continuum.

At one end you might have individuals with a more healthy relationship with food where they find a balance between eating higher energy treat foods and let's say more lower energy colorful foods.

And they find that balance and they navigate it relatively easily.

Normal individuals are probably in the middle in our culture where people struggle between going on diets and restricting and then shifting back or narrow range of foods as we move up towards.

And then disordered eating will probably cross over as we move up the continuum.

Then at the top end you might have individuals that are more diagnosable with eating disorders and that's where those swings tend to be more extreme.

Okay, so that is, it's really interesting to be able to sort of see ourselves in that.

When you say the word normal, I'm saying that in inverted commas.

Are you, do you mean sort of neurotypical people who are sort of, you know, this societal sort of conditioning going on of how we're meant to be looking in a bikini and how we're meant to look.

Especially now with the rise of like the gym, the gym bods and all of that.

And are you saying that we're all susceptible?

But are you noticing that there is a much higher ratio of people that you are identifying as neurodivergent who are coming in with eating disorders.

Yeah, it's.

I think what's happened is almost the other way around.

We've worked in, I've worked in eating disorders now over 20 years and even at the beginning we were just waking up to the idea of autistic spectrum disorder, ASD and, and the, and the, and the links between that and anorexia specifically because the service I was working in, it was the ASD clinic was next door to our clinic and we shared clinicians and we just started really noticing the, and looking so much research on this.

No, there isn't, you know, you know these, we got clients who are sitting in both services.

Why Whereas with ADHD we've been a lot slower on the take up.

And even, you know, having ADHD myself and I was diagnosed the last few years, I've known, I've had it much longer than that.

But now I think certain clinicians and clinics are much more informed and on the ball with it.

But as lots of, as you well know, it's still, there's still a backlash in certain areas in the context of ADHD and diagnosis.

But yeah, we, I think we're just getting better at spotting some of the features and the research is just beginning to pick up a little bit with eating disorders and adhd.

If I tell you how I got into eating disorders, it was actually by chance.

I was on a low compost.

I was meant to be in it for two weeks and I was then the end there seven years.

And the reason was that I just immediately resonated with what these clients were presenting with and struggling with.

Even though I haven't had an eating disorder myself, what I probably quickly realized is that if I was not cisgendered and heterosexual, I probably would have developed bulimia.

But because I was, I.

My output was sport and other areas where, and kind of muscularity probably in that sense.

And it, and the same psychological mechanisms came out in a different way.

And those underlying bits that I resonated with was predominantly I had clients coming in with this powerful inner critic that was telling them they're stupid, ugly, fat, lazy.

And then imagine that's kind of sitting at the head of the table.

If I go a bit Harry Potter we can imagine it's got Voldemort sat there and then on our.

And then to kind of manage that the clients then kind of built this or manage this, what we call a kind of controlling part that would then set goals and try and appease their Critic by running around going, I need to be perfect, I need to set goals, I need to eat less, I need to exercise more, I need to work hard, I need to be the best parent, I need to.

And as long as it ran around trying to fix everything, it then quiet and this powerful inner critic.

But the second it either achieved the goals or stopped, the critic then would come back in and lazy and this cycle would tend to escalate.

And then when somebody was overwhelmed or didn't reach their goals, this kind of third part would come in, sat on the right and I don't know, we'll go, we'll go with Ron, but.

And that would be like right?

And put kind of headphones on screen and go right, I'm ignoring.

La la la.

We're not listening, I'm shutting off.

Give me some food or alcohol or I'm just, I'm shutting, I'm not listening to this critic or this element.

So.

And then it was within that dynamic that I was kind of like, wait a minute, I've got all of that.

I've got that in different ways.

You know, working really hard, burned out, you know, switching off, numbing, shutting down, disconnecting, then beat myself up and then back round and.

And these three parts are relatively normal, as we talked about that continuum.

So people in smaller amounts that control is really important.

It helps us get up, set goals, plan resource seek, make money, find friends, blah, blah, blah.

And our detached, this detaching part helps us at the end of the day manage our energy levels.

Now actually, I'm going to take a break, I'm going to have a cup of tea, I'm going to watch some tv, I'm going to chill out.

I'm not going to overwork.

But the more potent someone's inner critic is, the more it escalates, the bigger the critic gets, then the bigger the over controller to manage it.

And as those two escalate, get bigger and bigger and bigger, that we kind of call, consider kind of the more anorexic aspect.

And it is that perfectionist, unrelenting drive that if we stop, we feel, you know, behind that drive is a fear shaming part of us that feels ashamed or feared or not worthy.

So we have to keep striving.

And then when it's too much, we switch, we switch into the other.

And if we think about it almost as a seesaw, an individual that tends to develop anorexia sees that, you know, really escalates.

Those two, let's say 90% of the time they're in that restrictive goal setting perfectionist.

I mean, maybe 10% in the kind of detached, you know, I've switched off, I've done, I'm giving up, I'm eating, I'm.

Whereas a someone with more of a binge eating disorder is going to be 90%, they're still going to be 10%.

Right.

Today I'm not going to eat anything.

I'm going to, I'm going to set the goals, I'm going to lose weight, I'm going to do this and I'll do that for 10%.

But 90% of the time there, right, you know, I'm used to this, I might as well eat.

I've blown it anyway.

I'm fat anyway, so what's the point?

And they'll shift into that side.

And then someone with more, you know, kind of bulimia is just oscillating between those two components rapidly.

Now.

We should all be able to relate to that on some degree because that's, you know, when I talked about that continuum, there's a normality when you've got someone who's, I'm going on a diet, I'm going to do it for three weeks before my summer holiday.

They're in that exact anorexic phase.

The same for everybody.

And then when they might give up and blown it, I might as well make it eat everything today before.

Because all so and so then we switch into that other mode.

There are certain elements though that make people more vulnerable to kind of moving up that continuum.

And at the core of, in all the work I've done over the years, when you formulate anyone, it's really the major element behind it is emotional regulation.

Has somebody, when they've been growing up, been given good tools or great tools to regulate their feelings and emotions?

Have they been given average tools or is it poor tools?

So what we know about, say the treatment of anorexia is 50% of the clients have an identifiable trauma and 50% don't.

But in my line of work and all the assessments I've done, you know, pretty much all of them haven't got great tools to regulate their feelings.

So even if their traumas are lower down, let's say the extreme end, their tools for managing them leaves them very overwhelmed.

And it's that when we have to block our emotions because we haven't got the tools to manage them, then we're more likely to block them by keeping ourselves busy and purposeful.

Because if we get achievement and we're feeling achievement, we're not feeling guilt or shame or distress because we're feeling achievement and anxiety.

And then when that.

The other way of blocking is to numb and cut off and that then falls into those.

Those other areas.

Okay.

I mean, it's absolutely fascinating to hear you break it down like that.

So we can really understand the root, but I wonder if we able to see it from the neurodivergent lens and see the root of the emotional dysregulation and the lack of the tools combined with the potential traumas and also the way our brain works differently.

If there's a way of then speaking to the eating disorder through that way, as opposed to maybe the traditional way, which was maybe not understanding that there was.

You were working with different types of brains, does that, does that make sense?

Like, would you say that now that there's an understanding there, could it be that recovering from eating disorders could potentially get easier?

Yeah, 100%.

So if you look at pretty much the evidence base across the board for the treatment of any eating disorders, all starts with food.

Okay.

And you might hear this comment that eating disorders not about the food.

And that is correct in the same way, alcoholism is not about the alcohol.

But unless you tackle the alcohol first, you can't deal with the underlying issues.

And if you try and open up the underlying issues without dealing with the food or the alcohol, all it does is push somebody to use the coping strategy that they had at the beginning, which is it makes the symptoms worse so they're at higher risk.

So if we think about my metaphor of the critic, the over controller and the detached, If I say, well, that's all very good and well, it's not about that.

It's about the underlying.

Let's look at your trauma in your childhood.

All it does is it just.

All the others just up the ante and go flip.

We just shifting in those different ways.

And so actually, first off, you need to work on containment.

So all the treatments.

Reasons also about how do we.

So if someone's getting a treatment and it doesn't start with the focus around the food and managing those symptoms, then you want to be asking questions.

Why?

Because any evidence based.

Now if the alternative, if someone has had lots of those treatments and they're very complex and someone is incredibly experienced and they're.

And they're able to assess all the other elements that may be playing a role in that, then that might not be the case.

Now.

Now, if you take something like dbt, which is a CBT treatment for emotionally unstable bpd, that in that they Focus initially on skills building.

So that's the initial focus.

So actually you're looking at still regulating the different elements.

You're not dealing with the underlying past or the traumas.

You definitely don't do that.

You deal with building the containment.

So if we're talking about that emotional containment I was talking about, what you're trying in DBT is you're building those resources at the beginning.

Can I just interrupt and just say DBT for anyone that's not heard of it is dialectical behavior therapy.

Is that right?

That's correct, yeah.

Okay.

And just to kind of just give a little bit of an explanation of what it is.

From what I know of it, it's tools like to calm and regulate.

It is.

If we take what I said earlier, which is.

And it's probably helpful to go into more detail on this about.

Everybody thinks they're given the same toolbox for dealing with their emotions.

We definitely haven't.

Yeah.

Our experienced childhood means that some people have great tools.

A lot of people have average tools, and a lot of people have terrible tools, but they don't know that.

And what treatments like DBT are really good for.

And there are other things.

And compassion focused therapy, again, it's about building or retrofitting, improving that toolbox.

So when we can actually open that toolbox and go, you know, this is a toolbox of fixing a car.

And you've got hair straighteners, a pencil, a banana, and you're beating yourself up because you can't fix the car.

Actually, that's not your fault.

Let's, let's go and, you know, fabricate some tools that actually can do the job.

And that's what you're doing with these particular treatment models.

So you're kind of building, retrofitting that to kind of then regulate.

And then once you've built that capacity to regulate, then and only then do you want to then start.

Let's look at, let's look at some of this painful.

Let's take the bandage off and start poking at this, these painful bits.

That meant you've spent all your time, you know, taking, taking all these painkillers.

Let's try and.

And that's if we can let the wound heal.

But we need to build the capacities and the abilities to clean it up and let it heal before we try and approach that.

So any skilled, experienced, trauma focused clinician, or CBT or you're looking for regulated clinicians, hcpc, chartered psychologists, anybody with clinical experience in IT will be aware of this.

And that's what you're looking for in that treatment.

So hopefully that helps understand.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think the word retrofitting really, for me that just like slotted into place because what we're hearing a lot of now is that we, you know, people who are being diagnosed later on in life, either, you know, with autism and ADHD or, and, or is that they are then able to see where the dysfunction came from and the trauma potentially from their childhood through perhaps undiagnosed parents as well, who have been brought up by their undiagnosed parents.

Because we do know that it's very genetic.

And so now that we have this understanding, we can look at things through a very different lens.

Like you say when you talk about compassion focused therapy, we're able to say, I was trying to calm and regulate myself in with tools that just are not, you know, just not working for me.

Or I didn't even have those tools because my parents didn't even have those tools.

And so we're all flailing around in the dark, completely unaware of what's going on, blaming ourselves for all sorts of things.

And so it's just a really important, I think, note to really kind of focus on in that we've tried to probably fix ourselves in ways that are just not right for us.

You know, we're using tools that aren't right for us.

But now that we have this awareness, and I love that you're kind of giving people the tools, giving them the scaffolding, helping them in that capacity, and then saying, okay, now let's, let's tackle the darker stuff, the more difficult things where they're then going to feel more empowered because they can go, ah, okay, well I've learned that here.

Or understand that now.

Do you notice that pattern emerging of empowerment and more self compassion when they have started to learn these regulation tools?

100%.

I mean, that's the, you know, that's why I do what I do for a living really.

I, I got into, I mean there was kind of a watershed moment when I worked with a.

I actually remember where she was.

I remember the clinic room, this young girl.

And I was assessing her and she.

How old was she?

So she wasn't younger.

Sorry, she was in her 30s.

And she was talking about the school bullies.

And it was this realization that school bullies haven't gone away.

They're in her head every day in exactly the same format they were before.

And it just is this drive to not let the bullies win.

And that's kind of like, wow, so that was kind of really that watershed.

This is what I want to do.

I want to help people manage those where they've their traumas and their struggles with.

They're not, you know, there is a mental health inequality.

People aren't all given these same tools and those that aren't don't even know it and they're going to suffer and struggle as a result.

So yeah, helping people is that.

And then having, you know, measures again, this is a sign.

If you're having treatment and they're using clinical measures to test the effectiveness of what they're doing, you're doing with them, and they're testing that all the time, then pretty sure it's an evidence based treatment or at least evidence informed because they're working with you.

You know, the treatment is focused on helping people get better.

So you're measuring and checking that people are able to regulate their feelings more.

And, and in that sense it's probably helpful again to talk a bit about emotional regulation.

What is healthy ration and what's, nor I don't like term healthy.

What's more effective and less effective that leads people vulnerable to things like eating disorders and these struggles and, and then think about it in the context of neurodivergence.

So I kind of think again, a metaphor for this is if, if you think at one end healthy emotional regulator tool would be someone that, let's imagine I'm having somebody says something offensive at work.

I'd notice that I'd feel potentially initial shame and then the anger and I'd feel that within me and notice that I wouldn't become it, but I'd feel it within me and go, no, I wonder why they've said that.

How should I manage that?

And then I can proportionately allow myself to become the level of anger that's most affected.

So I might go, right, I'm going to be slightly assertive here.

I'm going to say, excuse me, you know, what did you mean by that comment?

Because I could take that different ways or I could then up the ante and be even more assertive.

I'm not going to stand for that comment in this situation.

How dare you.

I might even choose, if the situation is, let's imagine someone was attacking my family, I might choose to take it to an extreme level to protect my family and you know, maybe physically try and assert myself.

Or I could choose to actually go, you know, this isn't the best time.

I'm going to hold onto this, I'm going to go away, I'm going to calm down, I'm going to re approach this person and manage it when the emotional level.

So that's kind of a healthy way.

We have the ability of containing our emotions, but we also then have the courage to be able to then find a place and be vulnerable and talk about our feelings.

So we need both capacities to kind of shut down.

So if you imagine, do you want athletes going into a World cup final to be sitting around holding hands, talking about their feelings and all the matches they've lost?

No, you want them to contain, bury that, put their game faces on and go out and do their job.

But if we always bury our distress and bury, bury, then we end up, let's say, less helpful tool.

So if we've learned to block our feelings, then we're going to block, block, block and then we're going to become them.

So it's nothing, nothing, nothing.

Rage, nothing, nothing, nothing.

Panic attack.

Nothing, nothing, nothing.

Overwhelming sadness and tears and then stuff it all back down again and carry on.

So you can imagine there the kind of these two ends of a spectrum.

Now we've got one that's feeling the emotions in their body and content, you know, happy to do that and then choosing and the others trying to avoid their feelings until they're overwhelming.

And there's a, in that there's another version which is pretty, which is helpful to understanding from a neurodivergent perspective, which is, let's imagine a child that is doing the opposite, that's showing their feelings all the time.

And it's almost what the hell is this?

And the sad part is in our sarticos, you know, these kids get shamed.

You know, you might hear teachers, little Jimmy's a very emotional little boy.

He's wears his heart on his sleeve, doesn't he?

You know, and they might try and shame these kids into blocking and displaying when in reality what they need is someone to help them understand and contain.

And it's the same treatment for if someone's uncontained with their emotions or blocked with their emotions.

They kind of need these key six things that a child needs in order to thrive or adults in terms of emotional regulation.

And I can talk you through those six key things that will probably help.

So one that we all need is play.

And play.

You can think about it in terms of that might be just wrestling or teasing or playing with kids, but why that's so important because at its core what you're doing there is this subtle submission and dominating dance that's going on within that little Play.

And that forms the basis of all relationships going forward.

If you think what flirting is or playing or, you know, bantering or joking or having a laugh, it's that.

Or in any romantic or platonic or any relationships, there's that subtle interplay between the both.

If you imagine going on a date and someone doesn't have those skills, they might just talk at you all the time or the opposite.

They just don't say anything.

And you're doing all the hard work.

You know, the hell is this?

This is the worst day of my life.

How do I, you know, my friends just called me and it's someone that, you know, struggles with that.

And with neurodivergence, whether it's ASD or adhd, that's a struggle because there are executive functioning issues.

There are issues with picking up potential social cues or dominating conversations or feeling unable.

Next one, security.

We need to feel safe and secure, at least in a place at home so we can feel contained on a regular basis.

That, you know, if you've got a family where there's high levels of threat, people arguing, shouting, struggle with their own mental health issues, then you end up with what we kind of talked about, that intolerance of uncertainty, consistency in structures there that kids need to know.

If they do the same thing, the parents react the same way.

Again, neurodivergent parents or undiagnosed neurodivergent parents, there's substance abuse.

If they're struggling with stress or emotions, then it's going to struggle to have that consistency.

And without the consistency, this kid is going to struggle to be confident in being who you know, being who they are and within themselves because they don't know what they're going to get within that next one's affection.

So being told they're loved or physical affection, that helps us feel soothed and contained.

Oxytocin.

And in that context, next one's unconditional love, feeling loved and valued in spite of your achievements and behavior.

So you need to know you're loved even if you've smash the tv, you're loved even if you've not done any work for your test.

And then the last one, which is what I work on a huge amount, and it's one that's not really sometimes kind of left out.

But I think it's incredibly important is value placed on emotional experiences.

So the child being seen, heard and valued.

So making space to ask children what they think, how they feel and creating.

So the child learns the language of emotions, they learn how to express that and they learn that people are interested in them.

And so they learn that confidence in talking, feeling valued, the opposite of that is feeling unheard, unseen, valued within that.

And why that's so important is that if you have that done correctly, then what that means is that talking about distress, connecting with feelings becomes a positive experience.

Because when doing it, you know, you feel supported.

So if you imagine if we go through and a child goes through an adverse experience at school, if they come back and no one talks to them that experience, or they don't feel they've learned that talking about it, people don't really listen or help, then they'll just encode that as trauma and a lonely experience.

I can't cope, there's something wrong with me.

And that's how it'll be encoded.

And not to seek support and help in the future.

If on the other hand, they've learned that coming back, talking about it, and people listen, hear them, and then help them understand what emotions they're feeling or that you must be sad about that.

Oh yeah, yeah.

And I can see that in your expression.

You seem to feel you've got heaviness here to understand.

They learn the language of different emotions, you know how to express it.

That trauma gets re encoded is not a isolating experience, but a, a supported experience.

So they encode that.

When I go through adversity, it's not me on my own, it's me and my team.

So when they then next go through adversity, they, you develop that a resilience and that capacity to be contained and then the courage to be vulnerable and contained.

And now and you then with that combination, then you develop a very capable, robust human being just, just to go.

That, just to reinforce that.

The validation I hear when people get their diagnosis and when they, you know, they've gone through all of this, I think the hardest thing for so many people is when they've been unheard, they've been dismissed, they've not been listened.

And so I just wanted to kind of really hone in on that because when we have that validation, I mean, I see it, you know, on a smaller scale with my kids.

My husband is quite sort of pragmatic and if my daughter comes home, who she is, highly sensitive and quite emotional and she'll tell me about something I have since learning so much more about this over these years, I really try and give her some space and there's this fine line that I'm trying not to overindulge her by like exacerbate and I don't know if this is a thing that I could be doing, exacerbating her anxiety or me giving her that space and listening to her and saying, yes, that must have been really horrible, or yes, you must have been really worried.

And I can really understand, but I'm so conscious I want to validate her, that I give her that space where my husband sort of veers on the side of, you can't constantly be.

You know, you've kind of got to build her resilience a little bit.

And I just wondered if you could speak a little bit about that.

Like if there's parents listening now.

And listen, if we project our fears into our kids, and we don't want our kids to go through certain things that we may have gone through, certain traumas, or if someone's listening and they did have eating disorders growing up, and if they.

It may still be there, but, you know, they're trying really hard not for their children to, you know, to not see it or absorb it.

How do we as parents not project those fears but still give them that.

That validation and that space to know that they're loved, cared for, their security, the safety.

There's this unconditional love, this idea of.

You know, I say this, I may have misunderstood you, but it's almost this historical idea.

Well, you don't want to modly coddle them too much.

Where's the balance between, you know, treat them mean and toughen them up versus mollycoddle?

And the key bit, it's actually what we know is it is move away from it.

It is actually focusing on these needs, really being supportive.

They're containing so that they internalize that, because that's what you're trying to do.

The whole point in adolescence is to internalize your support structures.

And if you have a very containing, listening, supportive support, you know, supporter that hears and sees you, then that is only then by later adolescence, then you're going to feel contained and support enough to kind of then split and then that kind of.

You get that really more healthy independence because you're separating later on in adolescence.

If a child becomes highly independent early in childhood, adolescence, that's not a good sign.

That means they've either given up on their caregivers or, you know, they've learned that actually it's better that I don't seek support elsewhere.

And then I try and fix this on my own with the tools I've got.

So that might be something to hold within that format.

So where it can be a little bit different is that if you grow up in an environment where they call it a meshment, where a parent is over involved in a child's care that the child can't, and the parent where they begin and end.

So there is an element in parenting with support and then let the child go off on their own, fall over, make their own mistakes, get hurt, come back, be supported that you're there, you're not helicopter parenting, you're letting them go away.

But they know they can come back and be supportive because what you're trying to do is for them to internalize so that wherever they go, they feel you with them.

Without that support, they've internalized that they don't need you physically with them.

So.

And the other end of that is that what you might end up with is where children don't internalize it and then they spend the rest of their life reassurance seeking.

So they need to be around people and need to feel contained because if they haven't got those, they've internalized those key support structures, then that, you know, they might fall into that element, continually seeking that support and reassurance.

And then again, we cross that over with neurodivergence and let's say rsd, you know, you've only got a.

Where does that begin and end in the context of a genetic component versus Actually the problem being a new divergent parent is it's actually difficult to deliver those six things consistently and effectively.

And for me, I know if I've got one child, I can be a really good parent the second.

You have got two kids, you know, I struggle, I struggle to, you know, I struggle to manage those two different, you know, those different kids in the way I'd like to.

And there is a, you know, there is a middle ground.

There's a sweet, a large sweet spot in all of this.

We don't need to get it perfect, but if we're aware of those key bits, nobody gets it perfect.

I mean, that's the key point.

I do this for a living and I have my own guilt, you know, parent guilt all the time, as most parents do.

And I'm maybe more informed than most with the parent guilt.

I can see what I'm doing and seeing it happen in motion.

Yeah, I don't think that's hard, isn't it?

When, when we do work in this kind of area where, you know, awareness is key and I do, you know, try, I always say to, to, to my community is that I'm just, you know, we've got to work with our resources.

And we've also got to work with the energy that we've got, the resilience that we've got at the time, like what's going on externally and all these different things.

But essentially, if we're getting our diagnoses now, you know, whether or not, you know, we're in our 50s or 30s or you know, we are being given a key to awareness that we didn't have before and we're able to retrospectively look back and see where maybe where that parenting from, you know, from our parents kind of, you know, I don't want to be too judgmental, but maybe went wrong.

And we're able to look at that and learn from that.

And then maybe our children are going to look at us and kind of go, I'm going to learn from them for all the things that they didn't know.

And that's just the way it goes, isn't it?

Evolution and generations and everything.

So we've also got to be kind of compassionate to ourselves that we can't know all.

But from a.

I guess I'm just going to speak for myself.

You know, it's like a person that is prone to anxiety and worry that I fear that I have to know it all.

And now that I work in this area and I've got neurodivergent kids, I should have all the answers.

But actually when you break it down into those six points, am I providing unconditional love?

Yes.

Affection, consistency, the security there is play.

I am validating their emotional experiences and that's actually really helped me because that's helped me kind of go the key things that to hopefully for a child to thrive, I'm providing and we don't have to get it right every single day.

But you know, I think there is this pressure that we put on ourselves to maybe fix our past through them and maybe just to release a little bit of that pressure to know that these are the things that matter.

Just to point on yours there, which is we've been talking about these kind of things.

A child needs to thrive.

And I imagine that's going to fire up a lot of people's critics and then switch them maybe into that detached kind of give up or self attack and that sense.

But it's your point about this is what compassionate capacities are about.

It's about then noticing that and actually, you know, giving yourself a pat on the back for what you are doing and trying to figure out how we can improve.

But do it from a perspective not of, you know, attack and shame, but actually a way of helping us, getting the best from us so we can grow and have capacity to develop that as well as the other areas in our life.

And I know that today's conversation, we were, you know, we wanted to talk about eating disorders, but I feel that this has been a valuable conversation because we can all see different parts of what you discussed in ourselves.

And with ADHD specifically, you know, talking, I know how it shows up.

It's in a very non linear way.

And for one ADHD person, you know, it looks very different to another person, which is why we see addictions change, we see behavioral patterns change.

Somebody may struggle with insomnia, someone may struggle with sleeping too much, like we.

It's so different for so many people.

And so I wanted to kind of make this as much of an expansive open conversation where they can notice these things.

And hopefully we've offered some solutions as well, you know, just to begin wrapping up the conversation.

Where would you direct people who are, who have maybe lived with disordered eating for a very, very long time and it's maybe part of their life?

And this conversation is sort of, you know, highlighted actually.

I'm, I'm ready to let this go now and I have this new awareness of neurodivergence.

Where would you say for people to begin?

Like where do they, who do they go and get help from?

Oh, first off, us obviously.

So the Body Image treatment clinic.

You can go to G Speak, go via the NHS route and I'd also recommend going through Beat, which is the eating disorder charity.

Two More Been There is another charity that helps people and First Steps is another charity for eating disorders.

I think they're kind of key first places, NHS Beats and kind of looking in those areas because that way you're going to get registered, experienced clinicians who know what they're doing in that field.

We have had this, an increasing issue that's known within that you've got probably since COVID lots where huge amounts of eating disorders and services were overwhelmed.

So you've got this boom industry through social media of unqualified clinicians treating eating disorders and eating disorders.

These are dangerous conditions and it needs to be treated and assessed by experts in the field.

So can people through the Body Image clinic.

Is that a private service?

Do they need to be referred just so in case people want to get in touch with you?

It is a private clinic.

They don't need to be referred, they can self refer.

And look, if we can also help signpost for the services and in doing so make sure that they get the support they need.

We have been trying since COVID with developing a audiovisual treatment package targeted for body image but it's a lot of it is targeting these emotional regulation these all these key bits because whether as people of course have understood now whether you're targeting body image or other elements of eating sores or other conditions, it's these baseline elements we need and it's particularly neurodivergent friendly in that sense why you did it audio visual and not a book so that actually people can chunk size work on skills and different elements understanding in a format that is easily absorbed.

So that's why we've kind of designed it in that manner rather fine.

Well I will make sure that all the links to all of this that we've discussed and the links that you mentioned for other clinics as well are on the show notes for anybody that needs extra support after today's conversation.

But Thomas, I just want to thank you so much for your time.

Really appreciate it.

Brilliant.

Thank you.

Thank you.