We hear about Charlie's life working at Tesla, what led Sam and Charlie's careers into a more purpose driven direction. Why Spaera started as a net-zero solutions company for the shipping industry. And we randomly hear about Andy's disastrous gluttonous kitchen habits whenever he tries to cook a meal.

Charlie's recommendation:

Let My People Go Surfing - Yvon Chouinard (book)

Sam's recommendation:

Headpace (app)

BWB is powered by Oury Clark

businesswithoutbullshit.me

Hello and welcome to B W B Extra.

We'll be get to know Sustainable Shipping advocates, Charlie Spencer and Sam Buller.

And little better we hear about Charlie's work experiences at Tesla.

What led Sam and Charlie's careers into a more purpose-driven direction, why SP started as a net zero solutions company for the shipping industry.

And we randomly hear about and these disastrous.

Gluttonous kitchen habits whenever he tries to cook up a meal.

So let's wind the clock back.

How did you end up doing what you are doing?

So for me it was, uh, the love of design and technology.

You know, I wanted to, uh, become a product designer.

The next, uh, Phillip Stock or something like that later, it'd be Johnny Ive, you know, the guy from the iPhone.

And so I went, uh, into, uh, product design, uh, at university that gave me an opportunity to, uh, have a placement year within industry, uh, which I chose a automotive tier one supplier.

Uh, because they were, you know, one of the few companies in the UK that were actually making things.

So I got the opportunity to play with injection molding tools and learn, uh, design for manufacturer.

But then that also sort of, you know, made me realize it's actually really fun to be part of a big project.

Um, with product design, you tend to work in like a smaller team and you make one thing and, uh, yeah.

Uh, it's, it's limited.

Whereas in a car it's, you know, like a three or four year program and there's a lot of buzz being in the trenches with everybody.

But I soon realized that, you know, uh, what what really drove me is, is when I feel like I.

I'm having a positive impact, uh, on the planet.

And that's what Tesla offered me is, is, is the realization that, hey, if you feel like you're actually changing an industry and moving into a positive direction, that is probably the most fulfilling aspect of any job.

And, and it's what took me eventually to Spara when Rob, who I worked with at uh, Tesla, sort of offered me at the position and said, Hey, do you fancy tried to do the same thing for, uh, maritime as.

Uh, as Tesla did for automotive, I thought.

Yeah, that sounds great.

I think, um, despite all of Elon's critics or forget, let's depersonalize it, you know, cause he's, he's, he's a, is an amazing chap, but, you know, it's nice to see when corporations are a force for good.

Because all the, the, the, this prevailing view that often happens, well, our companies are bad, we need to nationalize or something.

It's like nationalization ain't the solution to everything.

It really ain't, you know, companies do have the power to do incredible things.

Yeah.

And I, I think that is one of, uh, Elon's biggest redeeming features.

Right.

Uh, he gets a bad rep and he gets played as a bit of a villain, but at the end of the day, he is trying to make the world a better place and he's, he's really putting his money where his mouth is.

Yeah.

He's trying to.

Colonized Mars for God's sake and give the man us some credit.

You know?

It's like that thing.

I grew up with my dad saying, I believe we've gotta live on another, you know, planets, you know, and I, I mean he, he got some, I can't remember what age he was, but some ridiculously young age.

He got that $400 million payday from Sam.

PayPal.

PayPal, yeah.

And he put all his money into SpaceX, Tesla.

Very good, Sam, how about you?

Yeah, so I started from a very, uh, different place, actually Charlie and I went to sixth form College, but uh, I went into business and studied business management at, uh, university of Bath.

And, um, I, I went into the commodity trading and the energy trading industry in, uh, in particular after university.

And I was fascinated by how markets work and was working on, you know, even with like crude oil at that time.

And then, um, I thought actually I got this sense that actually.

Uh, you know, working for some of the largest energy companies in the world, uh, and working on with these commodities that actually, um, I don't particularly think is.

Probably doing it good to society and the environment is a great idea.

And I, I became aware of, um, liquified Natural Gas, which is playing a very important, uh, role now in global politics.

Um, because, um, it, you know, to a certain extent reduces, uh, reliance on Russia.

But I got into the, Trading of that.

But then, um, you know, LNG serves a certain place in terms of a, as a step, a stepping stone, um, fuel, I think, um, towards a, a greener future.

And then, um, I got talking with Charlie.

Um, uh, you know, we'd stayed in contact over the years and, you know, we had this mutual interest in finding it if there's a new way that, uh, the shipping industry can be, uh, changed to, uh, to achieve the same outcomes.

Cuz everybody wants their.

You know, their products ordered online and delivered from China, but to get it done in a way that doesn't cost us, you know, such a, such a big environmental cost.

And so with my background in, in, in the commercial side of, um, international logistics and, uh, energy transactions in particular and with, um, the,

the background that the team have in terms of engineering from Tesla, And we've also, um, got, uh, an F1 engineer, um, aerodynamics engineer in the team.

Two, two that, um, I think we're together as a team.

I think we can produce a solution that is, um, industry changing and how, you know, Rob, so I worked with Rob at, uh, Tesla, and uh, he led aerodynamics at Tesla.

Um, he got invested.

In the whole sort of life cycle analysis and quickly realized that, you know, um, okay fine, great, we're making this wonderful car.

Uh, but the way it's actually getting into the customer's hands and all the products that are being brought in to, to build it, uh, the impact of that is actually pretty bad.

You would think, you know, the Tesla and the numerous other people out there, there must be other people thinking about him working on this at the moment.

There are, yeah.

No, there are.

Um, they're all approaching different.

Aspects of the problem.

Uh, usually just looking at one smaller portion, uh, and trying to solve that.

Whereas we think, uh, that actually to come up with a good solution, you have to change everything at once.

You know, you have to look at the whole problem holistically.

Incremental change.

You're always talking about you have a market that's trading and no one wants to, you know, offset the apple cart and also change comes to small increments.

So you try and sort of edge him over here when you're right.

A lot of the time you just wanna take a sledgehammer.

Yeah, and that's the thing, right?

The incremental change isn't gonna work in this instance cuz you can't just.

Take, uh, a hydrogen fuel cell and put it where a diesel engine was and go, okay, good problem solved.

And the energy density doesn't work.

Uh, you're gonna have to have too much hydrogen on board.

Plus there's a whole bunch of other issues to resolve.

So we need to be more efficient.

We need to use our energy more wisely, and that's what we're trying to do.

Yeah.

And the, the, this industry operates on very slim margins.

Oh, they must be tiny.

Yeah.

On these because, because it doesn't cost much.

Well, the people when they buy their products don't really care about the cost of the shipping.

It's just a, it doesn't add any value to it.

It's a, it's an industry doesn't really add value in the sense of, it doesn't make your product any better.

You just want it done as cost effectively as possible.

Yes.

You try for the cheapest solution.

Exactly.

So, That's that.

Those are the drivers in the market.

They should put the factory on the on the ship and that'll make a lot more sense.

So just in China, they load on the raw materials, then you get off the other end.

We got the products, that'll make a lot more sense.

Then I'll be well invested, you know?

And if they had the factories on the ship, we could have some wicker parties, man.

Cause we'd be out at sea.

Wouldn't that be great?

We could fly in the stuff.

Ah, it'll be madness.

What's the most misunderstood thing about your job?

I would say within startup culture, I think people have this idea that when you launch a startup, it's like you, you come ready, bake with the solution, right?

You have, I have this amazing idea and now I'm gonna make this startup and, and I'm gonna spend the next year just industrializing it.

Just working the kinks out and, uh, and getting it out there.

Whereas actually, a startup is more like trying to solve 10,000 different problems and hoping that the original idea isn't so distorted by the process at the end of it, that you are left with something that's completely.

Lacking in value.

It's that difficult thing between having a plan and, and, and changing the plan, isn't it?

It's like, um, it's what that guy said.

Uh, yeah.

Plan beats no plan, you know?

Anyway.

It's, it's, it's an impossible task.

Uh, yeah.

And do you feel Yeah, uh, you know, when you're working in a startup, you don't have, like, my role is head of finance, but I don't just do finance, you know, I get involved in some of the engineering problems.

We have to have strategy discussions, as, you know, everyone has to do a bit of everything.

So, um, I think that's probably the biggest miscon.

Conception.

Do you find, um, you have to pay the, like we can't spend any money role as you, yes.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I wonder about this thing, how we've got this really strange relationship with money in this country.

We, I think in all, most countries people don't, you know, other than the Americans where they're very comfortable talking about money, the society was built on it.

It's their religion effectively.

Most of ours, we, it's a sort of thing that came as an afterthought.

You know, our countries are old enough that there's almost predates money, but.

Do you think the British have a, um, a particular problem with how we talk about money or should change it?

Should be less afraid to talk about money?

I think we definitely do need to become more comfortable talking about money, uh, particularly from the sort of employee perspective.

I think, uh, I think a lot of employees get taken for a ride because they're not comfortable talking about money, not fighting for what their value, uh, add to the company is.

And I really think that a lot of companies actually need to start looking more at.

Sort of equity incentives and things like that, because why would you expect somebody to really drive positive change for your company if they don't share in its success?

A lot of these startups, it's hard to get emotionally involved with, like, we're gonna build a platform that's gonna help some people kind of, you know, do their compliance on Tuesdays.

You know, it's like, you know, you have something that people can get emotionally engaged with.

You know, I think, you know, that's why a good management comes in.

I think you should be able to get people motivated about pretty much anything.

Because you know, if you're gonna do something, you might as well do it.

Well, it's, it's, you know, it's that whole principle of like, honor and respect, uh, whatever you are doing, you know, do it with passion and, and, and otherwise don't do it.

What's your passion outside of your business and saving the world?

I love food, but just not, not just eating it, uh, like the whole ecosystem around it.

And actually, I think.

If we are successful in the maritime industry, that would be one of my next focuses is, uh, is revolutionizing food because we're actually in big trouble there as well.

You know, there's all these reports out that say we've only got about 60 years of topsoil left before we star it of all nutrients and can no longer grow crops.

Uh, even with all this organic farming.

I mean, bloody hell, I'm buying a lot of organic products.

Good for you cuz that's what we need.

Uh, there was actually a report by the World Health Organization some time ago saying that the only way we're gonna save ourselves is through small scale organic farming.

And the other thing is vertical farming.

Of course.

Yeah.

That.

Elon's brother does that with the square roots.

People do it in um, London and stuff as well, and it's incredibly effective.

It's, they take an old council flat or a could car park, no one's using, and then a car park.

They could like, that's just insanity.

They can just be like, okay, well we're gonna grow the same as.

You know, 50 hectares, which is fantastic cuz then you're also actually, you know, growing it right where it's needed in the center of urban environments.

So you eliminate all that sort of CO2 burden of bringing these crops.

This is, this is one thing that nobody has actually been able to explain to me is like, why is it cheaper to fly a carrot from Argentina and to buy a UK carrot grown here?

Yeah, that's ridiculous, isn't it?

Nobody's given me a good answer to that.

Yeah.

It's gotta be bullocks.

The thing is, I'm a glutton.

I eat anything, so on my own, I, I, I, you know, I'd rather go make some music, so I just eat a sandwich out the fridge and the mayonnaise all over the fridge.

I'm just a disaster, you know, just cheese.

What if I could find how us and leftovers pile that onto the bread?

Mayonnaise bread.

Oh, down.

Well, it's quite revolting, but I feel, no, it's never revolting.

It's like, oh, I'll enjoyed the mayonnaise and that kind of bready thing.

No, but when I cook for myself, I overthink it.

Add to my, you know, I can cook well if I just, but if I'm on my own, I always go, let's experiment.

It's a belief in your own random ability to produce some un never before done dish.

Yes.

So everything ends up brown, so everything ends up a jumbled mess.

Of several flavors that really if you doesn't work, but if you put MENA all over it

and now a quick word from our sponsor, business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ari Clark, straight Talking Financial and legal advice since 1935.

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What's the worst advice you've ever been given in terms of like worst business advice?

I think it's, there's no like one specific example, but it's when people are overly reliant on process, you know, like, trust the process or do it in this way and that way, and stop thinking

about exactly what you're doing, just type in the numbers, uh, that kind of approach, uh, is, is just toxic to any kind of creativity and, uh, the best piece of advice you've ever been given.

I think for me it's, uh, maintain your objectivity.

Uh, there was like a real low point just before we were trying to get the model s out the door at Tesla, where all we could see was the problems.

You know, thousands of problems within a car.

You can imagine how many systems there are and, and you spend long enough looking at 'em, you think?

This is terrible.

This is never gonna work.

How are we ever gonna do this?

So to take a step back, uh, and, and this guy, uh, I was working with a wonderful engineer, uh, and just a good friend, um, sort of like said, get into the car.

And, and he took me in the car and he just stabbed the accelerator, threw my head into the back of the, the seat and yeah, it's just this huge smile on my face instantly.

And I was like, actually this is, This's pretty fun purpose.

Just reminding you that you've built this thing that's like a rocket ship and I have one.

Yeah.

And I was delighted to find a Tesla Model three performance.

I'm show my dad son, that's fastest Cars as the world.

Yeah.

Ferrari, Enzo, you know, Ferrari, Ferrari, whatever.

Number 15, you know, model three perform.

I was like, oh daddy car.

What would you tell your younger selves?

Uh, I think for me it's, it's, don't be so fixated on, you know, uh, where you are career wise.

You know what level you should be at, uh, what your title is, all that sort of bs Basically just concentrate on what you want to achieve, you know, what are you doing?

And, and cuz that's what you're gonna remember in 10 years time.

Like what have you actually physically done.

You're not gonna remember that, oh, I was the second left tenant.

SV p e of this and that.

It's, it's what did that company do?

What did you do at that company?

And, and I think that is much more fulfilling.

God, that's very meaningful.

Great.

If you can tell Sam for you.

Yeah.

I think for me, um, at every opportunity you have in your career to try and align it with, uh, I think there's this Japanese concept of iga.

I'm not sure if I'm saying that right, but it's, um, where the intersection of your interests, your.

Competence your values and doing something that people pay you for, um, where they all intersect.

And so finding what that is for you and then steering your career at the ev, uh, every opportunity you have towards that intersection is really a healthy thing.

And, uh, I wasn't cognizant of that at the beginning of my career.

I was just trying to get good at whatever job I was in at the time.

And actually there's a, there's a real, uh, ability to steer your career into, uh, the, the sweet spot.

Any recommendations, you've given some already.

Anything to read, watch, listen to that you guys think are important?

I, I've just finished reading or, or listening to as well.

I let my people go surfing by Yvonne Sard, the guy from Pat Patagonia.

Uh, that was a really good book.

Uh, really inspirational.

Wow.

Don't let any of your employees.

Get a copy of this.

No, it's, I think it's, it's, it's absolutely true.

Like, I mean, if you have people that are motivated to solve the problem, then let them do it in a time that suits them, right?

I mean, oh, is that the point of the book?

That's very good.

Well, that's one of the many points.

Uh, it's, yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's just, you know, trust your people, get them motivated about the mission, uh, and then, you know, try to do the right thing.

And, and that's one of the big, uh, principles of the book is like every time he's tried to do the right thing for the planet and the people, it's, it's actually worked out in the business'.

Best favor and, and for you, any recommendations?

I think for me, just something that I've been.

Benefiting from recently is, um, a guided meditation app.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so, uh, like a lot of people I've been, um, you know, dabbling with meditation for some years and, um, to, to invest in an app that you actually pay for so that you're invested in it, which happens it, well, I use, um, the, uh, waking up app.

Um, yeah, yeah.

Um, but to do that, um, on a regular basis, a actually daily is, is profoundly different from dabbling in it.

Um, so if you actually rigidly stick to it, it actually makes a huge impact.

I found It's so weird to say to someone just sit down and do nothing know, but it's, it's such a, mm-hmm.

Because that's it.

Like, I remember someone explaining know medi.

It's like, what is meditation?

It's like the art of doing nothing.

And like you just kind, you know, the breathing is all just, that's just a way of getting you into it.

But just sit and just, just, just be, allow yourself to just be, and it's a, it makes me feel breathless as an h, ADHD to be like, I remember someone saying, you know, You gotta live in the moment.

And our sudden thing as an adhd, trust me, we're living in the moment.

It's like, what's going on this moment?

What's up in the next moment?

Oh my God.

It's just not going fast enough and it's not exciting enough.

And so that was this week's episode of B W B Extra, and we'll be back tomorrow with our finale for the week, the Business Versus Bullshit Quiz.