Is God still in the miracle business? What do the miracles of Jesus in the New Testament tell us about who God is today? What has that to do with us? And what role does the empty tomb have in us understanding what God wants to do in the world today? Additionally, what role do miracles play in our lives? What happens if God doesn't bring a miracle? Guest Joby Martin has an idea!

Joby is a man who has a passion for God and His Word. Born and bred in the South, he is a lover of Georgia Bulldogs football, bowhunting, C.S. Lewis, and one of the funniest guests we have ever had. He is the founder and lead pastor of The Church of Eleven22 in Jacksonville, Florida. Since launching the church in 2012, he has led a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ.

In addition to providing The Church of Eleven22 with vision and leadership, Pastor Joby is a national and international preacher and teacher.

He has been married to his wife, Gretchen, for over 20 years and they have a son, JP and a daughter, Reagan Capri.

Learn more about Joby.

Check out Church of Eleven22.

Get Joby's book, Anything Is Possible.

Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.

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I think the evangelical church needs a gospel centered book on miracles, because either people don't believe in the miraculous or they're in love with a miracle instead of the maker of miracles, which really means it's really just a Christian form of idolatry. And God will not supply your idolatry.

It's watering time, everybody. It's time for Apollo's Watered, a podcast. Who saturate your faith with the things.

Of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ.

My name is Travis Michael Fleming, and I am your host. And today on our show, we're having another one of our deep conversations.

Have you ever wondered if God wants you to do a work in your life? I mean, have you ever heard someone talk about how God worked in their life and you wonder to yourself, why doesn't he do that in my life?

And you might feel that you're not good enough or worthy enough? I know I have full disclosure. I felt that way many times. I've become envious when I've heard other people give testimony.

And I go, why didn't God do that for me? Now that's the worst thing you can do, honestly, is compare. Because God does things differently in different people.

Which is why I wanted to have on today's guest, because he gets us back to the heart of God and reminds us that God does intimately care about the details of our lives. You know, I've been privileged to pastor three different churches, three different churches that were radically struggling when God took us there.

But by his amazing grace, each one of those churches was revived, renewed. And there's a variety of reasons for that, but it all goes back to one thing. We believed that God wanted to do a work there. I mean, we really did.

We believe that God and what he said in His Word showed that he wanted to do a work there. I mean, we talk a great deal about the mission of God on this show.

We talk about some pretty heavy concepts and these big ideas that we need to wrestle with so that we might be able to think clearly about how to accomplish the mission of God in our current cultural moment. But we also have to be reminded that with all of our thinking, it still comes down to one thing, and that's God working.

As we Read in Psalm 127, 1, unless the Lord builds a house, the work of the builders is wasted. Unless the Lord protects a city, guarding it with centuries will do no good.

Or as we Read in Zechariah 4.

6, as God speaks to the nation, of Israel and specifically to their leader Zerubbabel during the time of their return from the Babylonian exile. Then he said to me, this is what the Lord says to Zerubbabel. It is not by force nor by strength, but by my Spirit, says the Lord of Heaven's armies.

Both of these verses serve as a reminder to each one of us that God has to build it and he does it by His Spirit. Now it is working through people and that's why I wanted to have on our guest for today. Our guest for today is Joby Martin.

He's a southerner who likes Georgia Bulldog football bow hunting in CS Lewis. He's truly an original and if you live in Jacksonville, you know who he is. But if you're not, then let this be your introduction.

I'm talking with Joby about his new book Anything Is Possible.

It's a wide ranging conversation about everyday life, about how to live out our faith daily, remembering that first and foremost it's about knowing God, the real God, and not our cheap imitations of Him. The God who is the God who was and the God who will be, the God who is in the miracle business and who is intimately familiar with our lives.

It's a fun and insightful conversation because Joby takes us on a journey into nine miracles of Jesus that reveal God's love for us. But before we get to that conversation, we need your help. We can't do this ministry without caring people like you. You are more than a listener.

You are a person who longs to make a difference and is tired of going through the motions. I know because I talk to you.

You tune in each week to learn to grow so that you might be able to accomplish the mission that God has for you where you're at. And this is why we need your help.

We need difference makers like yourself who will lock arms with us to help water the thirsty souls of believers around the world. There's a link in the show notes, just simply click that and select the amount that works for you.

Whether it's you as an individual and you want to give a one time gift or become a monthly partner. Or maybe you're a leader of a church that wants to be able to help this ministry accomplish its mission. Either way, let us know. Drop us a line.

Contact me@travispollowswater.org and we can make that happen. And now let's get to my conversation with pastor Joby Martin. Happy listening.

Joby Martin. Welcome to Apollo's water it is.

That's a strong intro. It's good to be here.

Okay, are you ready for the fast five?

I think so.

I guess.

Okay, here we go. Number one, your dream hunting trip and.

Spot would be where caribou slash moose in Alaska.

Have you been?

No.

No. That's where you want to go? I have some friends that have done that.

Yeah, me too.

Number two, the best food in Jacksonville.

Is found where medium rare filet at Three forks.

Write that down.

Three forks sounds actually really good right now. Okay, number three, you have to make a choice. CS Lewis or bow hunting.

Bow hunting?

Not even close. I thought you loved Lewis.

I do, I love him. But I get to spend forever with that guy so I could talk to him one day. I don't think you're bow hunting in heaven.

So that whole line in the lamb lay down together, I think. I think I'm done.

Okay, number four, the funniest moment you've ever had.

Preaching is funniest. Oh, gosh, I don't know. That's about halfway through a sermon and my zipper was down. That was not great.

What did you do? Did you do anything? Did you address it or did you like come up creative way? Like take off the jacket, pull it up. I mean, what did you do?

This is where like contemporary church is such a bummer because I'm in like T shirt and jeans. So I just hid behind the podium. I think I prayed. I was like, let's pray. Like in the middle.

I was like, I just feel like the Lord wants us to pray, which he did want us to pray so I could zip my pants up.

Okay, number five, if your life was an 80s song, show or movie, it.

Would be what and why.

An 80s song, show or movie?

80S song, show or song, show or movie. What would it be and why?

I think it would be living on a prayer. Because I'm so far over my skis right now, there is no. There is no legitimate reason I should get to do what I'm getting to do right now.

Well, that actually is a great segue because it leads into really the question, like, let's hear a little bit about you before we get to the book. You include that a lot. I mean, you're very well known figure. God has used you in pretty tremendous ways. A lot of people know about your bio.

Grew up in South Carolina. You were converted out of a Roman Catholic household. If I remember correctly, what I've seen.

No, no, we were nothing, okay?

Nothing. Nothing at all. Okay.

I mean, we would.

We would all say we're Christians because we're from the south, but we believed in, you know, the Lord, NASCAR and SEC football and Grits, all about the same. That was all on the same level. There was no active church participation at all growing up.

So how did you come to know the Lord? You mentioned you went to a camp and you came back and. And God saved you.

That's it, man. I. I got in some trouble. A little extracurricular activity that should have landed me in an orange jumpsuit picking up trash on the side of the road.

And my football coach went and talked to the judge and said, I'll work him way harder, send him to camp with me, because he knew I was lost. And our counselors reenacted the crucifixion of Christ in a very, like, B minus level portrayal.

You know, bunch of country kids from small colleges all around the south. And. But they did. They reenacted the crucifixion with, like, bed sheets and torches and stuff.

And, I don't know, divine revelation, I was like, oh, that was real and it really counted for me. And so I did what JD Greer says you're not supposed to do. Ask Jesus into my heart. If you read that book, it's a great book and he's a dear friend.

But I did, and he came in and here I am. So I was radically saved.

I mean, how did you know? You were just called into ministry. I mean, when did that happen? Was it right away that you knew, hey, I want to preach?

No. No way, man. So a few years later, I go to go to college and I am volunteering at my little local at my church. And.

And then I went back to that camp in the summer and Coach Lee just. I mean, I was like, in charge of cutting grass and I was the lifeguard and stuff like that. And one day we're standing in the back of the room.

While this is before Chris Domin invented worship, we were singing I am a C. Remember that one? It was like the guy was singing. He was from Furman. He was singing I am a C with an overhead projector.

I have a C, I'm a C, H, I'm a C, H, R, S, D. I N. And this is a Southern Baptist church, man. I. You know, I was like in the 11th grade before I realized we were spelling Christian. I didn't know.

I thought we were speaking in tongues and we were getting in trouble. Anyway, guys, if you're singing, I'm a seat. And Coach Lee leaned over to me and said, joey Martin, when the singing is done, you're going to preach.

And I was like, coach, in like two minutes. Are you kidding? And I said, coach, I'm not comfortable speaking in front of people. And he said, boy, did you say comfortable?

You think Paul and Silas were comfortable in prison? Boy, do you think Daniel was comfortable in lion's den? Boy, do you think Jesus was comfortable on the cross? I was like, no, sir.

And I said, straight up. I said, well, what do I talk about? He said, boy, that's easy. You talk about Jesus, you talk about 30 minutes. And I did.

That's pretty much what I've been doing since that moment every week of my life. Yeah.

We're going to take a quick break.

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Let's talk about the book that you wrote. Anything is possible. Anything is Possible. Wrote it with Charles Martin. How nine miracles of Jesus Reveal God's love for you.

What was the impetus behind the book?

Well, it's really like part two. My first book is called if the Tomb is Empty. Well, I mean, I want to point people to the miracle maker, right?

And one of the things that I continuously say to our folks is they'll come to me and say, pastor, I am in an impossible situation. My marriage is impossible, my health situation is impossible, my family, whatever the thing is. And then I'd be like, hold on, wait a minute.

But you're a believer in Jesus, right? Right. All right. You think God Almighty sent the son of God to earth, lived a perfect life, died buried. Right.

And you think on the third day that the stone was rolled away and he came walking out and they're like, yes, I believe all those things. And then one day it just came out of my mouth. I said, well, look, man, if the tomb is empty, then anything is possible.

If he can breathe new life into his dead son, surely he can handle whatever thing that you are dealing with, whether he gives it to you the way you want it or not. But you've at least got to believe that we have a miracle working God.

And I don't see an expiration date in my Bible on the power of God in our lives. So that's the book, the first book. We trace seven mountains that all point to Mount Calvary. And this one is really like the sequel.

Well, if God has pulled off the greatest miracle of all time, then we should be a people that are believing God for the miraculous.

Why do you think that people have a hard time seeing the miraculous anymore, at least in the West?

Because our view, that's. That's a good distinction, right? Because I think people's view of God is so small.

They think he's just like a little bit older, smarter and bigger than us. So we'll lean on him as opposed to seeing him as the almighty, all powerful, omnipotent, sovereign, creator, king of the universe that he is.

We have so much preaching, we have so much education, so much knowledge about who God is in our culture today, and yet we still have this really small vision of God. Why do you. How do you think that developed or why do we have that right now?

Well, a lot of it is because the man. I'm not the guy to, like, bash other preach preachers and churches, but, man, we need a lot less.

We need a lot, a lot fewer TED talks about how to be a better version of you and a lot more gospel centered. Let's point to the glory of God rooted in the power of the scripture kind of sermons and just believe him for who he is and who his word says he is.

So you think a lot of people just have moored away from that, trying to be. They've gone off on the benefits rather than just being a believer in What God has done.

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, comfortable people don't need miracles. So you don't need a miracle working God.

I mean, if you got everything covered, you got a place to live, got plenty to eat, everybody's healthy. As long as that's your life, you just lean into the. I mean, there are great benefits in being a Jesus follower, right?

When you do life the way the author of life intends you to do it, it tends to go better. Like, don't steal, don't cheat, don't lie, your life will tend to go better.

But when you find yourself in a place of utter desperation or pain, this is why everybody else around the world who claims to know Jesus, they know the wonder working power of the Lord because they got to have it to make it. And so sometimes, man, we're our own worst enemy. That. I mean, God's people never have never done real well with blessing. I mean, what.

Look at the book of judges. What is it, 13 or 14 laps around the same track? It's just, hey, we're all set. Don't need you. Oh, this ain't going good. Dear God, help.

He sends a judge. Thank you, Jesus. And they just run it over and over and over as if the church is different today. So that's it.

And I think the evangelical church needs a gospel centered book on miracles because either people don't believe in the miraculous or they're in love with a miracle instead of the maker of miracles, which really means it's really just a Christian form of idolatry. And God will not supply your idolatry.

I came from the mud there's dirt on my hands Strong like a tree there's roots where I stand oh, I've been running in front of the law Hope they won't shoot me down.

You start off defining miracles or not, not defining and describing it. And I actually really enjoy how you it captured my attention. I love how you described it.

Miracles are that intersection where the unexplainable meets the undeniable.

And then you said belief is the bedrock because doubt is never more powerful and faith never more weak than when your circumstances are terrible and you can't see any light at the end of the tunne. You really zero in on belief is the idea that you're trying to help people see that it's just the purity of your belief or just believing itself or.

Because I know of other people that they believe, but they haven't seen that miracle.

It's the object of your belief. You could have it. I mean, you know, to quote Jesus, you could have a tiny little itty bitty mustard seed size faith and an almighty God.

And that is infinitely more powerful. Powerful than having all kinds of belief either in yourself or your circumstances or some false God.

I mean, one of my favorite examples of this, my son was showing me these YouTube clips of these jokers in China where they had these glass bridges. Have you seen these things? And they bring their friends across these glass bridges.

They are thousands of feet above these canyons, and people get out over them and they lose their mind, man. They freak out, they scream, they cry, they fall on the ground. And so their faith, they barely have enough faith to take the first step out.

But once they step on the bridge, the bridge holds them up because it's the object of their faith that matters.

It's like one of the very first, like, black and white videos ever. And he was gonna just do an exercise and put like a dummy in it and throw it off and let everybody see it float to the ground.

And then he had ultimate faith in his handiwork. That joker jumps off the Eiffel Tower and smack, he's dead. It's not the amount of your faith, it's the object of your faith that matters.

Tiny little bit of faith in a bridge, whether you believe it's going to hold you up or not, it can. 100% faith in this parachute jacket that didn't work. You're dead.

And so what I'm trying to anchor people to is not to have faith in faith or to have belief in belief, but to believe that the tomb is empty. I mean, that is the bedrock foundation of why me and your believers in Jesus.

I mean, In John chapter 23 different times, it talks about they saw and believed. These things are written that you may believe. Now, I do think it's unfortunate that we translate the word pistuo. That's the Greek word pastuo.

We translate it believe. And it's a little bit of a bummer in English because we think believe that. And pistuo means like, believe in. Like there's a. You know, like, I'm a.

I'm a Georgia Bulldog fan. And so that's the team that I believe in. I. I believe that There is a team down south of here in Gainesville that wears blue and orange.

But I do not believe in that team. I know they exist. They come to town. Every once in a while, their savior comes to our church. I know all these things, but.

But I'm not like, I don't believe in them. So when James says, even the demons believe, they believe that Jesus is who he says he is, that's different than believe.

Yeah.

So it goes back and forth a few times. It's a wonderful example. And he's like, you guys think I can do it again? And they're like, yep. Do you believe? Yep.

And then he gets a wheelbarrow out and he goes, anybody want to hop in the wheelbarrow? Nope. So they didn't pistuo in him. Like, I'm going to put your. My life in your hands.

That's the kind of believe the Bible's talking about when it says pistuo or belief.

Hell is where we're all reaching. This clash is all of our ideals asking answers to those who have no will.

When you talk about that, because on one level, and I know you're saying that, hey, we have the belief in the Christ, right? In the biblical Christ. We have the biblical Christ. But yet what do you do when the miracle doesn't happen?

I mean, you've got all these different miracles that are there. And I'm a full believer in the miracles of the New Testament. I think you're right. I think we need to have more of those miracles in there.

But you gave two instances at the.

End of the book. Made me really angry. Actually, not angry, just sad.

Because you talk about your friends that had the brain tumor and my father had a brain tumor of 35, got rid of all his insurance because he thought God told him to. You know, he was trying to follow Jesus. He had just gotten saved, didn't go to the doctor, and then ended up passing away right after that.

And it's like, okay, well, why didn't God heal my dad? He had. I mean, he was trying to demonstrate his faith again. And I'm not. I mean, I was four, so I was a kid. So I don't know the depth of it.

I don't know the hurt of it. I'm sure everybody's got something like this.

You know, I encountered a guy, the reason he didn't believe in the gospel is because he prayed that God would save his dog, and his dog got died of cancer. And I'm like, okay, well, that's extreme. But it's the same idea. We all have that kind of idea.

How do you help people deal with that and have faith in the middle of all that, in the middle of the miraculous? Because I do believe it. But yet I think of the book of Daniel. He's able to deliver us, but if he doesn't, we're still not going to bow.

We still have faith. We still have faith.

Yeah. The prayer of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego is the way to go. I know that you can. I am believing that you will.

Even if you don't, I'm still worshiping you. All right, so I wrote a whole chapter, chapter four. The whole thing is on, what do you do when God doesn't do what you think he ought to do?

So while I'm writing this book, my best friend dies with me on a hunting trip in Scotland.

56 years old, right? 56. You said he was on the mountain and he didn't come back down. That was pretty tragic.

Pretty tragic. Oh, he's the worst, dude. And listen, man, I led that guy to Christ. I baptized him in the ocean.

He's a general contractor and builds all of our churches. He literally spends his whole life, every day, all day, trying to create places where people can hear the gospel. All right?

I still don't have a category of why God would take him out. I have a long list of people that I would love for God to take out. No problem. All over the world. Bradley ain't on the list, man. So what do you do?

What do you do when God doesn't do what you think he ought to do? What do you do when he won't explain himself? So John, chapter six, right after the feeding of the 5,000.

You got to think about this from the disciples perspective. You're like, they're thinking, this is going awesome. There's like 20,000 people there. They're collecting leftover food. You know what I mean?

They're like, I knew I made the right choice. And then Jesus is like, he's gonna. He's gonna preach a crowd thinner. You know, he's gonna create a seat maker right here.

And he's like, all right, write this down. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no part with me. Can you imagine? Guys are taking notes. They're like, what did he say? He said.

He said, fish he didn't say flesh. We can't eat pork, much less the prophet, right? And then you share. The disciples are like, hold on, hold on. He's going to explain it.

He's totally going to explain it. He don't explain nothing. He makes it worse. He's like, unless you feed on my flesh and drink my blood, you have no part with me.

And they start leaving. Many people start walking away.

Well, who wants to follow cannibalistic Jesus?

That's it. They're like. And I can imagine the people that are like, he's changed. I remember when we first used to follow him, he was just like.

Like walking on water and bringing back dead girls. Now he's changed. So then the real kicker is he looks at Peter and he's like, you want to leave, too?

And the reason he asked him is because Peter must be thinking, you know what? I kind of do. I've made a terrible career choice here. And he could have said, hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me explain.

This doesn't make sense right now to you, but in a couple years, we're going to do this thing called the Last Supper. I'm going to like, totally transform the Passover meal. I don't mean you actually, like, have to bite my tricep and drink my blood. It's communion.

Unless you believe the gospel that my broken body on the cross paid for your sin, then you have no part with me, and we're going to remember it. You don't have to eat me. It's going to be like a little Jesus that sticks in the top of your mouth and some, like, Welch's.

If you're a Baptist, it's not a big deal. It's fine. Okay? It's fine. He explains nothing. Now, on this side of the resurrection, it all makes total sense. He explains nothing to Peter.

He goes, do you want to leave, too? Peter's answer is what gets me through when I can't understand what God's doing. And he goes, to whom shall we go?

You're the only one that offers eternal life. Because here's what Peter knows. To walk away from you is to walk towards something else.

And there's nothing else on the planet that gives me eternal life. And now 30 years of being a pastor, everybody I've ever seen walk away because of circumstances. They never get their answers, their.

Their questions answered. They just get beat up and they come back with scars one day, if they come back. So you're a guy that says it. You know, you got to heal my dog.

For me to believe in you, there are two postures by which we can come to the Lord. You see him with the thieves on the cross. One guy comes with his own conditions. If you are who you say you are, save yourself and save us with you.

That's how so many people come to church. Like, I'll come to church, but you owe me stuff. That's one way to do it. But ultimately you're saying, I'm in charge and I need you to respond to me.

The other way is the thief on the cross who brings nothing. He's like, can I get one favor? Can you just remember me? And it's in that humility that Jesus is like, yep, today you'll be with me in heaven.

So what I want to do with this book is not like, I. I mean, I hope your miracle gets met. However, I really want you to meet the miracle maker. Those are two different things. That's the point.

John never calls the miracles miracles. He calls them signs because the sign points to something greater than itself.

So the ones we're talking about here is just to point to the character and nature of God. He's a good dad and he loves you. And here's what I'm believing about my friend Brad is that one day, like right now, I still don't know why.

Why would you do it? But there will be a day where I see it clearly and I get there and I am believing. I know he's good. It's evidenced by the cross.

I know that he loves me. It's evidenced by the cross. One day I'm going to see clearly.

I'm going to know in full, and I'm going to get to heaven and get to see the other side of the curtain and once again, go, you did it again, God, you did it again. Even though I couldn't see how you were at work in all things for the good of those that love you and are called according to your purpose.

I can see it now that somehow in this you were glorified. You knew exactly what you were doing. And so that's what I'm believing.

1, 2, 3, let me see what you see. I just want to understand what you see in me.

And 4, 5, 6, in my. Complicate me.

How could anybody love someone so damn well? This is a book about hope.

And.

And I, as I was reading it time and time again, you're calling people to believe in the one who gives the miracles. You're calling them to Jesus over and over again. I mean, you even give people Actions to do, like, stop right now. Write this in your margin.

Write your doubts, give them over to God. And then you invite people to pray with you.

Since the book's been out and it hasn't been that long of time, what are the responses that you've received?

All right, let me tell you the best one ever. This is the only reason the book happened. It's worth every bit of it.

So we're doing a, like a book launch thing at our church, you know, where all these people show up and they interview Charles and I a little bit.

And then afterwards I'm signing a million books, you know, so I'm sitting in our lobby signing books and this girl, she's like very attractive, maybe like early to mid-20s. He walks up to me and she's so sheepish and she's. As she's handing me the book, she goes, I'm so new to this. I feel like I have a million questions.

And I was like. And you could see like the puddles starting, you know, and then I'm like, new to what? New to reading? New to the Jesus thing?

What are you talking about? And she was like, well, I'm brand new to this whole church thing. And I'm like, well, that's what I'm here for. I'm here to ask questions.

She says, I've been here 39 weeks in a row and I get in here and I have all the feels and I agree with many of the things you say. I still got a lot of questions. And then she goes, how do you know when it's time to like, take that step of faith?

I just put the pen down and I was like, the time is right now. The time is right now. Do you believe that you're a sinner in need of a savior? Yep.

Do you believe when Jesus died on the cross, somehow that counted for you? And right now he's calling you to him. And she goes, yeah. And. And she prayed to receive Christ right then.

Well, then two days later, man, I get an email with the details of her life. Essentially she's been trafficked. It's like 50 year old man that claims to be a Christian wooed her, brought her to town.

And it ain't good, the things that she has been through. And so 39 weeks ago, she grabbed her stuff and fled and ended up somehow in our church. And when I say anything is possible, that girl got saved.

She thought she's the most impossible person on the planet for salvation and she got saved. So that's the kind of Stuff that.

Is happening, which is so encouraging to hear of just the circumstances that people find themselves in. And also one of the things that I've noticed in the book, and I can hear it when you talk, is you really do give hope.

I mean, you point people to Jesus. No matter what they've done, no matter where they've been, no matter what they've gone through, Jesus is there. Which is so refreshing to hear.

I mean, we hear it, but to continually bring you back, it's almost as if you won't let a person stay in their garbage because you wrote this. God can use the worst mess for his own message. Why is that so important for people today? Especially to hold on to.

Oh my gosh, man, we live in such a cancel culture. And what people don't understand is that condemnation is the language of the enemy. Anytime you get those whispers like, who do you think you are?

If they only knew. I mean, one of the enemy's favorite things to do is try to define you by your past scars.

Well, the Bible tells us, man, that we're defined by the scars of Jesus. That's who defines us. And he paid it all. And therefore now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

One of the, like, one of the pictures I have in my mind, the book of Revelation says that he will wipe away every tear. Well, if you've ever wiped your kids tears away, you know, you do the like two thumbs by the nose to the middle of the eyes and wipe away.

Well, when Jesus reaches out to you, the thing that you see are the nail pierced hands, which is the reason. I mean, think about that.

There will be a day and the nail pierced hands of Jesus will reach towards you and you're going to see hands that got holes in them. And then the tears are wiped away because that's how scandalous his grace is. And not only does he forgive you, this is crazy.

What he'll often do is use the very thing that you're most embarrassed about or that got you in the most trouble. Often he'll use that very thing for his own glory. Think about how many times Peter got in trouble for his mouth.

I mean, they are on the mountain of transfiguration. There's. There's the transfigured Jesus, whatever that means.

There's Elijah and there's Moses and Peter thinks, you know what, I should probably say some things. And he puts his head in there and goes, it is good that we are here. All right? And you're like, dude, can you just shut up for like one minute.

The Bible says he keeps on talking because he doesn't know what to say.

You can, like, in your head as he plays out.

Totally, totally, right?

I mean, it's so good that we.

Are as, as Caesarea philippi. When Jesus says, who. Who do you say that I am? He goes, you're the Christ of the living, the son of the living God.

And Jesus is like, bro, you nailed that. That's awesome. Your name's Rocky. Upon this rock, I'm going to build my church. Here are the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

The next section, Jesus says, all right, so let me just give you the game plan. This is how this goes down. I am going to be betrayed, arrested, flogged, beaten, crucified, dead, buried, and on the third day, rise again.

And then the Bible says that Peter rebukes Jesus. No, you're not. Not on my watch. And Jesus calls him the devil. He goes from the Pope to the devil in one page in my Bible.

And yet when the spirit of God falls on the day of Pentecost and God is going to use somebody to preach the very first sermon, he's like, hey, motor mouth, why don't you give it a run? And Peter preaches in, 3,000 men get saved and baptized in that moment. Dude, trust me.

All the things that got me in the most trouble growing up are the very things that God has redeemed in my life and uses me in the spot that I'm in right now.

You're an example of hope for people.

No. Oh, my gosh, no doubt, man. No doubt.

You know, one of the things that you mentioned, you said there are five categories of pain. You remember that? You said, living in a fallen world, demonic attack, our own sin, others sinning against, suffering straight from the hand of God.

Why did you feel that you needed to identify those five categories for people?

I think identifying makes a big difference, man. You can't disciple a demon and you can't cast out poor decision making.

I mean, there are people in my church that like, pastor, the enemy's attacking my finances. I'm like, okay, tell me about it. Basically they're like, yeah, I. I buy stuff with money I don't have.

I'm like, darling, that ain't the devil, all right? You're an idiot. Those are self inflicted wounds. I don't care how much we pray, I cannot cast out dumb decisions that you are making. You can't.

And you know, and then there's another category of people, and the, the enemy's winning because they don't even think that there is some sort of influence that is from the unseen realm. And so they're just trying to willpower their way through this thing. And then sometimes the one that's hard, man. I mean, how about this one?

This one gets me. Jesus looks at Peter and says, hey, man, the devil is going to sift you, whatever that means. And he goes, but I'm gonna be praying for you.

Wouldn't you be like, hey, man, how about don't let him? Can you do that? Like you're in charge of the whole universe? What you mean, pray for me? Yeah, there are times where. Where these.

This testing, this discipline comes. I mean, it comes through the very hand of God that he is going to allow us to go through pain. And he's in charge.

Like the whole story of Joseph with the coat of many colors, kid. I mean, when he gets into the end of it all, he fundamentally looks at his brothers and says, well, you intended for evil. God intended for good.

Now we.

We change those words all the time because we don't like that as Americans, we change the words to say what the enemy intended for evil, God used for good. That's not what it says. God doesn't drive the ambulance man.

He's not running around behind us cleaning up the mess and making it okay that he intended it for good. And so I think identifying that can be very helpful.

How do you help people see if it's a demonic attack and just differentiating between trauma, poor decision making. I mean, how do you differentiate and identify, hey, this is from the devil?

Because I've been there where people say, hey, that, you know, the devil's attacking me. How do you know? How do you know?

What's that? I would start off with, well, let's talk about what you can do differently.

You know, so many people get so obsessed with what you don't have control over that you don't take control over the things that you can do something about, you know? And so one of the things is to ask that.

Another thing is just to realize is that because of the fall, you got to admit, it's at least like collateral damage from the enemy's attack on Adam and Eve. It's at least that. And you just want to make sure you're not contributing to his. What he wants to do.

I mean, self control is a fruit of the spirit.

So begin to allow the fruit to manifest some self control in your life and make the kind of decisions that you can make so that then you can attack this not just from the physical, but then you can go to war spiritually against these things.

I mean, anybody that's ever loved someone or has suffered from an addiction, if you just listen to the language they're using, they're using New Testament language. Like, there's a thing I don't want to do. I know I don't want to do it. I've promised I'm not going to do it anymore.

And I know if I do it, it's going to be bad. But then somehow there's this thing in me that doesn't even feel like me, baiting me down a road that I don't want to go.

What do you, what do you think that is? I mean, C.S. lewis in screwtape Letter says, you know, one of the.

One of the primary schemes of the enemy is us thinking he's not there and not attacking. I mean, it kind of reminds me of deer hunting. It's funny when that it's funny. I mean, I do it all the time. I hunt a lot.

But I think it's funny when they started calling hunting a sport because half of the players don't realize the game has started. Well, I have quite the advantage. You know, that's the spiritual life of most evangelicals. You don't realize.

If you don't realize you're in a war, you're not ready to fight. When you get surprised by that, you're in rough shape. You're well behind.

How do you think that the devil has really convinced people they're not in a war Today in the west, the.

Biggest thing is the pacifier of, of, of comfort. I mean, particularly in the church, man. I mean, he's just like lulled everybody to sleep and says, just be quiet. Just be quiet. It's okay.

It's not a big deal. Don't pay attention to poverty around the world. Don't pay attention to human trafficking. Just being around. Oh, Netflix. Look, Netflix.

Want some Netflix? I mean, this is what it is.

It's like when you're going on a trip with you, with your kid, you can just put an iPad in their face so you don't have to deal with them, man. The enemy has just put the iPad of distraction and comfort in the face of the church and be like, don't worry about all these things.

Just be comfortable, be quiet and be comfortable.

How do you help people wake up to that? I mean, you mentioned the paralytic at Bethesda and you mentioned there's a difference between.

And I want to make sure I get this right and how I word this or how you worded it. You said there's a difference between want to and how to. How do you, how do you, how do you help people see that?

What Jesus asked this paralytic man, the simplicity and depth of this question is unbelievable. So he's been laying there for 38 years in a mess. And Jesus says, do you want to be healed?

And you think, well, of course he wants to be healed, Jesus. That's why he's hanging out at the, at the angel stirring pool, right, with all these other people.

But it's a legitimate question because some people don't want to be healed. They don't. I mean, I see it all the time. They don't want their marriage to be healed.

They don't want that trauma that they experienced when they were a kid. They don't want the healing of Christ. Because if, because if they're healed, then it takes.

Sometimes it takes away their identity because that's who I am. I'm the victim. Or one of the biggest things is it'll take away their excuse for bad behavior.

Well, then what can I blame for my outburst of anger and me screaming at my kids all the time if I'm whole and healed and I have the peace of the Lord, or how can I. How can I explain the poor decisions that I make if I'm actually a healed person?

And so one of the primary questions is just to ask people what Jesus asked. Do you want to be healed?

Lately it's like my body has gotten tired. I'm not inspired the way I once was. When I was stronger, I'd always take the long way home.

We know that anxiety is at an all time high. Medication's at an all time high. It seems that everybody is a victim.

I mean, it's out competing on who's the greater victim and what they've gone through in these traumas.

Not to downplay trauma, I mean, we're glad to be able to address trauma, but how do you differentiate between legit trauma and people just living in their victimhood?

I think there's a difference between being broken and being wounded. I mean, Jesus kicks off the sermon on the Mount with blessed are the poor in spirit.

So when you realize you live in a sinful world and whether people have done bad things to you, or even if you made stupid decision.

But you know, if you've been traumatized and you come to the Lord and you say, I am spiritually bankrupt, Jesus says, congratulations, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. You're like this close to being saved.

Because then you bring that to him and you come to him and say, I need you to do for me what nobody else can do for me. Like, even the people that hurt me can't make things right. You can't go back in the past and give back your innocence. You can't even do that.

So, creator of all things, Savior, I need you to do for me what no one else on the planet can do for me.

So the crazy, I don't mind trying to get political here, but man, when you begin to bring in really these like kind of Marxist ideas, that this is all power structures, and you are. You identify yourself based on these number of markers. And whoever has the most negative markers wins in regards to the most oppressed.

And that kind of power structure that versus Romans 5, you are either a child of Adam or you're a child of Jesus. That's it. You choose. These are like, they could not be more opposite religions. They couldn't be more opposite religions.

One is, I am sitting and identifying in who I am, whether it's my skin color or my orientation or whatever. It is man, my political party. And one is, I am crucified with Christ. It's not even me who lives anymore, but Christ who lives in me.

My primary identity is a son or a daughter of the King. They couldn't be more different.

So if you begin to identify in what has happened to you or what you've done or who you like or whatever, then to move away from that is to surrender your life. I mean, that is your God. That is what defines you.

And the fundamental premise of the gospel is, is not self identification, it's self denial to say, no, no, no, man, Jesus is my Lord. I do what he tells me to do. I am who he says I am. And there is a dividing line in our culture right now between those two things.

It's a very unique way to put it. Self identification versus self denial. I mean, self denial, of course. How do you not?

Again, not that this is a part of the book, but I'm just curious as you're. As you're working this through, because I'm trying to process this with you.

When you mention that you talk about the structures aspect of things, how do you differentiate between helping people to See who they are in Christ and dealing with the wrongs done over time in any culture. I mean, I had Hutus and Tutsis in the church and they wouldn't talk to each other because of the war that they'd gone through.

I mean, taking it out of different cultures, how do you differentiate between helping a person take personal responsibility, finding their identity in Christ and practicing self denial, but it also seeking justice for someone else.

Very complex. There's difference between complicated.

Like a, like a wristwatch is complicated because there's a bunch of little moving parts, but it's not very complex. You know, like one little thing can really influence and affect another thing.

So in those, in any of these like interpersonal dynamic relationships, particularly where there's pain involved, it gets really, really complex.

So one of the things I think that is helpful is to, is to kind of help untangle it a little bit and understand some biblical principles, principles here rooted in the gospel. So the first one is going to be forgiveness. And Christians misunderstand forgiveness like crazy. Forgiveness can be unilateral.

The other person doesn't even have to participate in order for you to forgive them. And In Matthew chapter 18, Jesus talks about what forgiveness is and he basically equates it to this.

If somebody has sinned against you, they have created a debt, debtor relationship. This is why he does the unmerciful servant parable. There's a debt debtor relationship.

And I think the thing that Christians skip over is they don't ever create around here what we call a debt ledger. They get sinned against and they just go like, I'm supposed to forgive and forget, so that's what I'll do.

No, no, no, no, dummy, that's not what that means whatsoever. You've got to. The first thing you've got to got to do is identify what they have taken from you. And you don't just gloss over that.

It's a really, really, really big deal. This is not the kind of exercise you do in a minute, man.

If you were like abused by your dad, okay, the list is long of the things that he stole from you, that he took from you. He took your innocence. He didn't do what he's supposed to. He marred your view of God. He. I mean, right? There's a lot.

And then after you've identified that debt ledger of the person that has hurt you in that moment, you get to make a decision. Am I going to hold on to this or am I going to cancel the debt? Is a good language. Cancel the debt. Is probably even a better language than forgive.

Okay? Because forgive, we think forgive is a feeling. It's not. It's not at all. Now, if you hold on to that debt ledger, just know this. It will kill you.

It just will. It will kill you. And so when we do this at our church, we tell people, just identify the person that's hurt you.

Write all the things down that they did you wrong in. Write down the emotions that accompany those things.

And then if you're not going to forgive them, you should post it up somewhere, like in your office and be like, hey, just want everybody to know, that's why I hate Sally. Look what a terrible person she is. Okay? I'm reminded of it every day. Because that's what you're doing. That is an option. Yeah.

According to Matthew 18, forgiving people forgive people. And so you. You say this. You say, all right, because. Because I have been forgiven. Because if. You know, if the Lord runs a debt ledger on us, it's.

It's a big one.

Yeah.

And then he said, you know what? At the cross, I canceled your debt, so you have that option. Then what I remind our people to do is this.

You should do something to, like, commemorate that. Like, dig a hole and bury it or burn it or do something. So when the enemy begins to whisper and be like, it didn't count.

Because every time you see her, you still get all like, I hate that girl. Okay, well, of course he's trying to remind. He's trying to let you know the cross didn't work. And so then you have to remember. No, no, no.

Shut up, devil. I know I've got all these emotions wrapped around this right now, but I remember for sure. On that date in this place, I canceled that debt.

That person doesn't owe me anything anymore. Okay? So that's forgiveness. Reconciliation is not the same thing.

Reconciliation requires both parties forgiving one another and then starting over clean. So that's even more complex.

And then you take it one step further, and we are not necessarily to be reconciled with every person that I would never, ever, ever counsel somebody in my flock to put themselves in a situation under the banner of Christian forgiveness that would cause them to be traumatized anymore. There are times where you leave that city and you dust the dirt off your shoes and say, I ain't going back there anymore.

And yet, even in those places, you still need to forgive those people, but you may not be reconciled to them, and you may not be even. Even be in their present. When you detangle those things, it helps the traumatized person to then figure out, okay, so where am I?

Well, we at least need to start with the forgiveness thing. And before you can even cancel the debt, we.

We need to spend some serious time dealing with what happened to you so that you can get to the place where you can say, all right, as my debt has been forgiven, so therefore I forgive this debt.

I mean, forgiveness is always such a huge issue and a very powerful one, which. Which actually leads me to my. The. The story that you told about Ike. Tell us a story about Ike. It's a powerful, powerful story, man.

So I met this guy five or six years ago. He's a sergeant in the Daxville sheriff's office. And the sheriff was introducing me to him. And his story is that he's a police officer.

And 4 o'clock in the morning, the chaplain and the police show up to his house and let him know that his son has been murdered. And his son wasn't doing anything wrong. He's just playing video games at his buddy's house.

And a guy comes in and shoots up the house and kills his son. And so Ike, just like every dad I know, has the same kind of preconceived ideas of what you would do if somebody hurt your kid.

And he's like, I would kill him because that's what I would do, because I'm a dad. I love my kid. I would protect them. Well, craziest thing is, three years after his son was murdered, the.

The court case begins, and the murderer of his son walks in, this guy named Takoya. And Ike, in his own words, says, I don't know how to explain it, but I just loved him. He kind of looked like my son, and I just loved him.

And it even bothered Ike. He was like, what is wrong with me, Lord? Why? You know?

Well, when Tacoya got sentenced to a life sentence, Ike started writing Tacoya letters and then throwing them away, writing them letters and throwing them away because he was afraid to reach out.

And then eventually, three years into his sentence, he sends him a letter saying, hey, I forgive you, and I know it must be rough in there, and I want to ask you for a favor. I miss my son, Ike junior. Would you mind taking his place? And would, you know, would you stand in the place of my son?

Dicoya testimony is he's in prison and he cries out, God, if you really are there, I need you to show me yourself. And the next day, he gets this letter from Sergeant Ike. And he immediately knew this is what grace is. This is Unmerited favor.

And so they began a relationship. And a couple years later, Ike legally adopts Takoya as his own son.

And now they, like, via Zoom or Skype with Taco in prison, they talk to, like, inner city schools and football teams and things like that about making good decisions, etc. So when Ike first tells me this story, I'm baffled. I'm like, holy. Hold on. And I said, bro, that is the gospel. And I goes, what do you mean?

I was like, how could you not see this man that. That a father, his son was murdered, and then because of love and grace, the father adopts the son's murderer as his own.

That's the story of the gospel. And he goes, I never thought about it that way. And so that's his story.

And they have this relationship now.

Yeah, Takoya got saved. Ike led to Coyote, to Christ. And they do these. They do these, like, talks via Zoom or Skype or whatever where they tell their story. And.

And especially Takoya, man. I mean, he's hard, dude. He is. He is. He. He's a big old dude. He's in prison with chains on and the whole thing.

And he said, I look, man, you want to be a man? Let me tell you, I don't get to eat without somebody telling me when it's time to eat.

I don't get to lay down and go to bed without somebody telling me I can lay down to go to bed. And let me tell you this, not one of those gang bangers I used to run with have ever come and visited me.

And he's just trying to warn them, like, don't make the decisions I made or you're going to end up in a place you don't want to be. Yeah, man, but yeah, they have a very close relationship. I mean, it's father, son. They call each other father and son.

You refer to Jesus healing, Jesus feeding the 5,000. And you actually make this quote. You quote this old pastor who said, don't waste Jesus's bread.

That's right.

Describe what you mean by that.

Well, that was an old African American black pastor, and he was talking about, be a good steward, man. You know, I mean, as a euphemism, bread, as a euphemism for money. They didn't just, like, let it lay around.

They even collected it and put it in all in the 12 baskets to be a good steward with it.

Well, we do often waste Jesus bread.

That's a fact.

Well, you mentioned another thing, too. Using God as an instrument.

How do you differentiate between Using God as an instrument to get what you want, but at the same time, he offers himself to give the things that we want, like freedom and new life and purpose and peace, cleansing, purity. He offers those things.

And yet how do we differentiate between or know when we're using him as an instrument and a means to an end and just who he is? How do you differentiate those things?

Yeah, you just said it's all means and end. So if he's the means and the end is you, it's just idolatry. And if he is the end and the means are the desperation by which I come to you.

I mean, he's a good dad. He loves his kids. He's not trying to give bad gifts to his kids. He loves us. But he's not a vending machine man. He's not, you know, he. And.

And he will not. He's not a genie in a bottle that we just go to when we need stuff.

And if we can get the, you know, the Tickle Me JBIZ prayer just right, then he'll expand our kingdom and give us the car we want it. I mean, it's a big difference in Tickle Me Jeep. Yeah, sorry, I just described that way.

Well, when the prayer Jabez book came out and the Tickle Me Elmo was like, at the same time. And I don't even think. I don't know who wrote the book. I don't even think the. If you read the book, the prayer of Jabez, Bruce Wilson, wasn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's great. And. And his book is great. But then when everybody did with, it was like, I got a secret code on God and I can pray for.

You know, if I pray these four things, then I can get all the stuff. Well, then the stuff is your God, man. The stuff is your God, and it impacts the world. Zero man. The prosperity of Christians leads nobody to Jesus.

If they look at my life, they'd be like, wow, great marriage and successful ministry. And he's in a Christian. Oh, I get it. If I become, like, one of him, then I can get this kind of life. Well, then that's not being a Jesus follower.

That's still. This is still with me in the center. And I can add the Lord as one more. One more ingredient in my recipe, which is the soup du jour is all about me.

This is very, very different than the point of my life is you, God. Like, what I'm looking for is you. So when I pray, I talk about this in the book, man. So My friend Bradley dies, and it crushes me. But my goal.

I'm not trying to use God to get my friend Brad. God put Brad in my life so that I could know my God better. And then I prayed for my friend Ben, who had a brain tumor. I tell you what's crazy.

When that first went down, right now, according to the first diagnosis we got, he should be in hospice. And I was in a. I just.

I was just in a meeting with him two hours ago, an executive leadership meeting where he's talking about the people that he's discipling. He's free and clear, healed well. Even as much as I love Ben and his family, Ben is not the point. That.

That what you get, like what makes heaven Heaven is not banqueting tables and streets of gold and mansions. It said you get God. He is the thing that we need.

Didn't know what to say I was taking the train one day Never thought I'd see you again Coming up short I didn't have a choice but to let it go Never let me explain myself Explain myself Now I'm leaving behind all the things I had in my mind I'm changing my ways I'm floating away.

You actually mentioned this idea of being close to Jesus and missing him. You talk about this in the empty tomb when you talk about Mary and he thinks he's the gardener, or she thinks he's the gardener.

And it seems like so many people have this idea of what Jesus should be rather than what he is. You know, we met God in our own image rather than seeing ourselves in his. How do we help people to not miss God when he's there?

Yeah, I don't try to be tricky about it at all. In fact, that's the sermon I'm prepping right now is, please don't get Bible amnesia when the circumstances get crazy.

I mean, she couldn't see past her own nose. The Pharisees freak me out the most. They're three feet away from they. How about this?

They can smell the breath of God, and they're not filled with the breath of God. I. I swear, I think a lot of people go to church that way. Man. And when he does not do what they think he ought to do, they can miss him completely.

Miss. I mean, think about this. Somewhere later in Matthew, it's at the table. Jesus says, one of you is going to betray me.

And the Bible says, I think this is like maybe Matthew 24 or 26 somewhere in there. And it says, and the disciples one by one says, is it I, Lord? Is it I, Lord? Is it I, Lord? It gets to Peter. Peter makes these big promises.

I would never leave you or forsake you. So 11 times it goes around the table, and they say, is it I, Lord? Then when he gets to Judas, he says, is it I, Rabbi? Judas didn't know him as Lord.

He heard every sermon. He actually participated in the miracles. Like, the miracle happened in the hand of Judas because he had fish and bread and was handing it out.

And at some point, he was like, holy crap. Look, man, I just. It won't quit, okay? And yet when it comes right down to it, he.

He saw he had all the evidence, but he never knew him for who he was. He only knew him as rabbi. And think about this.

If you didn't know the end of the story, if you were actually there and the night before, Jesus goes to the Garden of Gethsemane, and you lean in, I lean into you and said, all right, man. One of these 12 ain't gonna make it. Who do you think it is? There's no way in the world we pick Judas. We'd be like, no, no, man.

This dude's the treasurer. He's, like, the only responsible one. He keeps the money. He's got a job, you know? I think it's Peter. It's gotta be Peter.

I remember one time, Jesus called him the devil. If Jesus calls you the devil, you probably ain't gonna make it, right? Peter ends up being in charge of the whole church.

Judas is dead in the field because he filled with the devil. So it scares me as the pastor of a big, I mean, huge church, man.

Well, your church is huge. It's huge.

It's stupid. Big scares me to death because from the stage, guess what? I can't tell the difference between Peter and Judas. They all look the same.

Everybody looks fine.

And it terrifies me that people would just show up and show up and show up and, like, know how to check your kids in and know what part of the song to raise your hand during, and know the prayers and know when to move, you know? That's how white people say Amen. They go when you say something cool, and they do all the things and then not know. Terrifies me.

I don't blame you on that. I mean, seriously, God's entrusted all those people to you, man, that don't. Don't get in the. Don't get in the preacher line in the judgment.

I mean, that's gonna be a long life.

That's why we hammer the gospel all the time. These are not private conversations that I've only had with you.

All these things I've stood on stage and said, let me tell you what scares me about Easter. There's an empty tomb and there's Mary, who can't even recognize who Jesus is.

But the difference is, what makes her recognize him is he calls her name. He calls her name. Then she says raboni, which John says means teacher, but it does. It. It means like sweet and precious little teacher.

It's like a term of affection. He's like, oh, I know you. And so that's what the moment of salvation is.

I just beg people to try to clean their ears out so that they can hear him call their name.

You mentioned Spurgeon talking about Jesus calling Lazarus's name, and he had to call him by his name because if he didn't, the whole graveyard would be empty because they were communally. Oftentimes communally buried.

Yeah.

When I. When I think of people having this encounter with Jesus, I meet a lot of Christians that I've encountered with Jesus.

The problem they have is not Jesus. Usually. Usually it's his people playing it out.

How do you help people to have that relationship, continue to foster the relationship with Jesus and this messy group of people?

I mean, even when you mention that, I don't remember how you said it in the book, but you talk about having always room for one more at the church triage that you carry around because there are always bringing in broken people because it's messy. I mean, ministry is messy, and you guys got that. A lot of churches want to have everything put together.

You guys recognize the mess, and I think people are attracted to that, especially now. But how do you help people to keep that part in that check that it's about Jesus, even though his people are.

You know, the whole thing with Augustine where they said it was probably apocryphal, but when he said the church is a whore, she's still my mother. You know, that same idea.

You know, how do you keep people in that nourishment of that relationship with Jesus when God's people seem to be so stupid, Right?

Yeah. Yeah. It'll never be apart from God's people.

I mean, the deepest depths of what God wants to do you is most often in the most planted in the most difficult relationships that you have. Listen, man, I mean, it's a pretty arrogant thing to be like, well, I love the Lord and I've got it figured out.

But every time I get around some other people that claim to love the Lord, they mess me up. Like, who do you think you are?

You don't think there's a long line of people that could list your name too, to talk about how you have not been the right representation of the Son of God here on earth? You know, I mean, man, if you think we don't need each other, then you are not reading the Bible.

Jesus says in John, the whole Bible assumes that you are a part of the body. I mean, in fact, 1 Corinthians 12, that's what it calls it, right? The body of Christ.

Okay, if today I don't know where you are, but you have many fine books.

If you were walking out of wherever you are and you were going to your car and you saw a disconnected foot, like just a foot in your driveway, you wouldn't think, you know what, who am I to tell this foot that they need to be connected to the body? That this foot probably had a bad experience with a body and they're just figuring it out on their own? No, no, no.

You would think something has gone horribly wrong here. And the future of that foot, I don't care how much that foot praise and how much Caleb, that foot listens to, that foot is.

Can only shrivel up, shrink and die. That's all it's going to do, man. That is the future of the disconnected Christian. I think heaven looks at the person is like, I don't need church.

Like a foot in a parking lot disconnected from the body. Yeah, yeah, you're like a. You're like a baseball player with no team. You're not actually a baseball player.

You're just a guy in tight pants with a bat bag. You know what I mean? That we were created. We're not saved by the church, but we are saved into a faith family.

And we were wired to be in relationships together.

And 59 times in the New Testament, we're taught, called to one another, one another, like, love one another and greet one another with a holy kiss and forgive one another. You gotta have some one another's to do that with. Now again, man, there's no church that's perfect.

And you know, people are like, a church is full of hypocrites. I'm like, I know, right? You would fit in so good here.

That's what's so great about this, is that if you want the evidence that we need a savior, come to church, be around some church people. Of course we're not going to get along all the time and mess up. Have you, have you ever been in a family?

What if you kicked them all out every time somebody did each other wrong. You wouldn't have a family, be by yourself. And this is the faith family of man.

We are not called sheep as a compliment that, that we, we are dumb and backbiting and all the things. That's why we need each other. What's crazy to me is, well, I helped coach my son's football team and weightlifting team and all this. And I was just.

I was so angry at him one time because they weren't working out hard enough. And I screamed out loud, all you boys want to be strong. None of you want to be sore. And I thought, that'll preach. That'll preach, man.

Everybody wants to be conformed into the likeness of Christ, but you don't want to be around the people where your patience is developed, where your long suffering is developed. I mean, aren't you glad Christ didn't have the same attitude with his crew that most people have with theirs?

I mean, he'd have left them all, but he did. He stuck it out with. So we need a lot of people at church that just stick it out with one another, especially when we sin against each other.

We got a whole chapter in the Bible on what to do when that happens. Matthew 18, if your brother has sinned against you, talk to him, not about him. But most of the times what we do is we don't ever talk to people.

We just talk about them. It's called Twitter. And you got to make sure that it's like, is this a sin? Or did somebody just step on your preferences and you got your little.

The petunias of your feelings hurt? These are very different things. And if it's not your brother, the conversation is not one of reconciliation, it's one of evangelism. But then there's.

I mean, there's a step by step mapped out process on what do you do, you know, if. When people rub up against each other and create friction.

You mentioned, by the way, how you dropped Twitter when you said, we're in this. This culture that exists in a constant criticism of almost everybody. And the Greek word for that is Twitter.

That's a fact, man. It's terrible.

Twitter's just everybody yelling at you, fighting over definitions. I feel like that's all it is, everyone yelling at each other, which. Which actually makes me think of the.

The other part where people aren't yelling as much or in the same way. You know, let's get away from Twitter for a moment.

And you mentioned being with another pastor in East Africa and one of the pastors say to you that it must be virtually impossible to be a Christian in America. And you question them. And they said, because it costs you virtually nothing. And the message of Jesus is that it would cost you everything.

How do you deal with this idea that so many Christians have this kind of evangelical guilt over not suffering? How do you help them? Because you're right, I think we delight more in the gifts than the giver. We got more than the comforts in the Christ.

But how do we help people to, I don't know, deal with this issue that so many of them are not suffering and it costs them nothing.

So compel people by love to be rich towards God. I'm saying, if you think more is mine, you are not living in the kingdom of God.

Because we're not a savings alone. I'm just trying to pack up money here. I'm trying to be a conduit of God's love and grace.

And so you gotta learn the secret of abundance, which most of us live in. This is Philippians chapter 4. Paul learned the secret of having plenty and being in want.

Everybody gets so mad at me. I don't care. One of the greatest things you can do for your own discipleship is find another context on this planet and go serve the bride there.

One of the first things you'll find is the Lord's doing just fine all around the world, like he was there before you got there. And it will just help you see that the world you're living in is not normative. And hopefully it will compel you to be generous towards the Lord.

Very few Christians are generous towards the Lord. What's unbelievable is most Christians are rich, but they don't think they're rich because they don't feel rich.

And most Christians are not generous, but they think they're generous because they feel generous. Sarah McLaughlin comes on singing in the arms of an angel. And you see A dying puppy. And you think.

And you have feelings and you walk away from that commercial going, I am such a good person. I just felt so compassionate for that dead kitten. But you didn't do anything. And I don't even think.

I think as long as there's one starving kid around, we should not be sponsoring animals. But that's just me. So I try to compel our people to be. To be conduits of God's abundance and grace to a hurting world.

What's your hope for the book?

That the people will get saved that don't know Jesus and that Christians will be. They'll deepen their walk with him. That's all I'm trying to do, man. I don't. I only reason I write books is it's just.

Just one more platform to make disciples. That's it.

I mean, I think people can follow you. They follow all your stuff online, get the book. But how can people follow you and know what's going on with you?

You can buy the book that you go to our website, jobymartin.com or you can go wherever all the books are sold. You know, I do do some of the social media stuff. It's primarily just sermon clips and things like that.

Well, Joby, I want to thank you for. For writing the book. Thank you for coming on the show. Your. Your love for God is infectious and hopefully will inspire many other people to.

To connect to the God that you talk about so that we might all find joy together and God might be glorified. Thank you for coming on the show.

Amen, man. Thanks for having me.

God is in the miracle business. We don't always get miracles the way we want. We don't always get explanations. But the miracles themselves aren't really the point. God is.

Humanly speaking. Ike's story makes absolutely no sense. It's hard even to fathom. But Joby's right.

It's the story of the gospel played out by a sheriff's deputy sergeant in Jacksonville. Because if the tomb is empty, anything is possible. Our lives are messy. We try to make them look all neat and clean and good, but they're messy.

Your life is messy. The lives of the people around us, messy. Family and friends, neighbors and even our enemies. Messy, messed up. But God loves us anyway.

It isn't going to be easy.

And all too often we have sought out and settled for an easy gospel, an American one, one that doesn't cost us, one that makes us feel good and respectable. But as we heard God calls us to himself, to self denial, our scars don't define us. They don't define you. They don't. But the scars of Jesus do.

Praise God for that.

Which means that in an age that is obsessed with self identification, a culture that seems daily farther and farther from God, and all too often a church that sees Jesus as a means and not the end, we need to stop and reflect.

We need the challenge in our own lives to rethink the way we engage our culture with the gospel, reimagine what the church should do and how the church should go about accomplishing Jesus mission and then redeploy in the pursuit of his mission. I hope you found today's conversation refreshing to your soul. I want to thank our Apollos water team for helping us to water the world.

This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollo's Watered Stay watered everybody.

Sa.