CUPE Ontario, is at a crossroads. Their next convention is just months away, and for the first time in 12 years, Fred Hahn won’t be on the ballot for President. In February, after two and a half years of intensified attacks, he announced this would be his last term leading the union.

What does this mean for the Province’s largest public sector union? Is this a blow for leftists in CUPE Ontario, or an opportunity? Maybe it can be both.

Katherine Grzejszczak and Krista Laing, two candidates for the next CUPE Ontario Executive join Blueprints to talk about where things are at right now, and their visions for their union’s future. They talk about the impact Fred has had, but also what they might do differently.

Despite public sector unions being under attack, both guests share hopeful signs that workers are becoming bolder and more eager to engage politically. They emphasize the need for a more member driven approach, spending fewer resources on electoral politics, and more ways to realize the power of 290,000 union members.

Hosted by: Jessa McLean

Related Episodes:

• Stolen Wages - Featuring the Naujawan Support Network
• Nationalism and the Working Class

More Resources:

• Israel’s supporters attack Ontario trade-union leader | Counterfire
• CUPE Ontario Convention 2026 - CUPE Ontario

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Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. Good afternoon, ladies. How are you? Good. How are you? We're good. Let's introduce

you to the audience. Krista, can you start for us, please? Yeah. My name is Krista Lang. My

pronouns are she and her. I am running for CUPI Ontario Secretary-Treasurer at the 2026 CUPI

Ontario Convention. I'm Aminah Sporker. I come from Oshawa, Ontario, which is a labor town.

and I currently am the chair of the QP Ontario Municipal Workers Committee. Thanks for having

me. Welcome. Catherine. Hi, Jessa. Introduce yourself to folks who don't know who you are.

My name is Catherine Grzeszczak. I come out of the municipal sector as well, out of paramedic

services. I have been active in QP since approximately 2012 and have held elected positions at the

local level or at the Ontario level since that time. I um was president of my uh local, a

large municipal composite local for six years. And uh for the last two years, I sat on the

QP Ontario Executive Board as a member at large, and I am now offering for the position of third

vice president. Well, in both of your intros, you've alluded to what we're going to talk

about. There are elections coming up for QP Ontario. Folks might have already sensed that

this was happening because Fred Hahn, one of the most notable union leaders in Ontario,

if not the country, announced he would not be seeking re-election as president. He recently

lost an election at the National Convention for his vice. president position. I think

not everyone on the left, I hate making such bold statements, but I feel like with this

I could, I don't know many people who are politically engaged who didn't see what Fred Hahn went

through in the last two and a half years in terms of facing uh smear campaigns and other

mounted opposition. And he's paid the price. So maybe folks weren't surprised that Fred's

not going to be seeking reelection, but They do want to know what that means for Kupy moving

forward. I think he's been there so long. He's meant so much to what seems to be a very progressive

union in Ontario. We like to think that like we've got some good unions in Ontario and I

feel like we've got some awful ones like Launa, um not to name drop anybody. what did you

read? And what should everyone else have gotten from Fred's decision to not run again and

what that means for the state of your union? I think reading through his letter, was powerful.

uh The work that he has done for our union is, ah it's hard to put that dedication and that

time. uh That man never stops. I just want to start with that. Spend a full day with Fred

Hawn and you will be exhausted. It's unreal the love that he has for this union. um And

I think when you're out in front and you're the man in charge, you, like you said, like

you are the figure that wears everything that we do as a union, um everything that we decide

through resolutions. um And you are that figurehead and that's draining on a person. I got to

witness uh at AMO, David Piccini attack the man, um which was a clip that went viral, which

was unreal. And I don't know how someone could have handled that other than Fred. ah Wakes

up the next day, gets going for his members, for what's right. um It's going to, his departure

is going to leave a big hole. It was someone that I looked up to. I still look up to, um

and not just for his leadership, but I think the fact that I would constantly learn something

from Fred as well. I think when it came to Fred, he really embodied um struggles of all

of our members and tried to put that to the forefront. yeah, uh like it's going to be uh

a huge blow for us as a union, I believe. Yeah. I mean, I think in a lot of ways, like Fred

has, I would tend to agree with everything that Krista has said in terms of his incredible

leadership of this union for, I would say the last 10 or 12 years that Fred has held the

position of president. And I think um he took over from Sid Ryan. ah So there was a lot of

continuity, I think politically, between those two folks. ah There's no doubt that, you know,

uh he carries a lot of weight. I mean, I think it was really brutal watching him get attacked

continuously for two and a half years. ah I think that to me speaks to just how afraid

the... employer class, ruling class, however you want to call them, are of unions and

the potential that workers actually have to push back on some of the changes that we're

seeing in society. uh Because if the union was irrelevant and if what Fred was saying and

doing politically in terms of supporting trans youth or solidarity with uh Palestine, um

if what he was doing was irrelevant, he wouldn't have faced these attacks, right? And I think

that speaks to the power that workers have, whether we are actively really flexing and

using that power or not. um I think there's incredible potential for workers and then

union being able to uh direct where society is going. Moving forward, like his departure.

ah Yes, it leaves a gap, but then it leaves a gap for activists that are outspoken and

have the same values and principles to continue on that work as well. And realize that, like,

yes, we are governed by a president at QP Ontario, but there are members that share the

same values and the same beliefs, and it's our turn to step up and keep bringing that to

the forefront. Like, look, things have really changed. I would say politically in the last

two years, there's been an incredible shift to the right within society in general. And,

you know, for all the things that we can say that are negative about Fred leaving, it's

also an opportunity to, for the entire QP membership, to have a discussion about what do we want

to see this union being and doing on a go-forward basis, given that the political situation that

we're in today, I think, is so different than it was just a few years ago. Certainly, like

night and day before COVID happened, right? um So I think there's opportunities there.

And like, honestly, I just wish Fred the best of retirement. I know he's gonna continue

being active and supporting QP and our members. I know we're gonna see his face at demonstrations

without a doubt. um But I also wish that, you know, he... has the time to spend with his

partner, Carrie, and that he enjoys some time to himself after years of just giving and

giving and giving to QP and to our entire membership. I imagine it's difficult uh time for him to

step away as well, knowing how the situation QP is in, what situation the public sector

is in in particular. I know we're seeing a historical acts of austerity coming down from Carney's

government. You folks have been up against Doug Ford, notorious for his attack on the public

sector for years. So this is absolutely a pivotal moment in politics, especially as

it pertains to labor. What is the strength of CUPE right now and the public sector in

Ontario after so many years under Ford? We spoke to student unions last week, right? And

they talked about the actual damage and the momentum that was lost, sometimes having to

face just attack after attack, uh loss after loss. So where's QP at right now? I think

the strength is that we are seeing members publicly speaking out. and fighting and organizing

and taking action in ways that I have never seen since I've been active in the union. And

I think that's always where strength comes from. um There is no strength in a union outside

of the members. And it's been so inspiring to see like, you know, despite all of these public

like attacks that union leaders face and also being disciplined by employers for speaking

publicly. which there has been an increase of without a doubt. And yet union elected officers

at the local level continue speaking out and saying, hey, like this isn't right. We can't

provide the services that we are here literally to provide, right? Taking strike action in

numbers that again, I have not seen since I've been active for the last, you know. 10, 15

years. Yeah, um because I am from the municipal sector, like I mentioned earlier, and the

ratification votes that have been turned down is something that I think we're seeing in record

numbers. Like, workers are willing to go on strike. They want to be engaged. They want

to be active and they want to fight back. I think there's a real anger from the working

class throughout Ontario about privatization, underfunding, workload. And some of that organizing

is a little bit uneven and siloed by sector or region. But I do think there's a real potential

for worker power here. It's just not being fully coordinated. But I think that's kind

of where we're at in Ontario. Workers are frustrated with this government. They are realizing they

have the power. And now it's just about engaging them and coordinating. Can you explain a little

bit more about what those ratification votes mean for labor politics, for internal politics?

We know they're getting a bad deal from employers all the time, but what's the significance of

having workers feeling enough power to make those kinds of votes? Yeah, I think it's in

our sector, it's kind of unprecedented. Municipal jobs were this golden ticket job um where people

would just kind of take this vote and take what their bargaining committee and their national

stuff wrap gave to them and be like, well, this is all we can get. And I think what is building

out of it is this like anger and this collective action that it's not enough. And this realization

that workers actually have the power to push for more, um which for For the way we're

doing bargaining, we were starting to see a little bit of a change. We're starting to see

more open bargaining, more communication with the members to try to bring them into the

process, which is kind of um alleviating some of those failed ratification votes. But I

think that's a good thing. um The more we're engaging workers throughout that process, um

I feel like the more pressure the employer has on them and they see the power. of the

collective in that moment. Yeah, strikes are contagious, right? Like once workers start

seeing that you can actually fight back and you can win, that it's possible, they start

feeling that power. And I, you know, like I think Krista's absolutely right. I think

people are just saying like, this isn't good enough anymore. Like we do really important

work and you're not compensating us appropriately for that work. And you're also not hearing

our concerns about how to make these services better. Because that's also a large part of

the union activity that we're seeing is like pushback against like provincial cuts, for

example, right? Like you look at the social services sector where it's not even so much

individual employers. It's the funding that comes from the province, which is completely

abysmal. And these are some of the lowest paid workers. And we see this aggressive, um you

know, united coordinated front on the part of employers to force ratification votes in

that sector. Like this is literally brand new in the last couple of weeks. And workers are

turning down those forced ratification votes. Obviously with good reason, because the wage

increases that are being proposed to them are like zero and 1%. This is a sector that had

their wages frozen with Bill 124. Like people literally will say, cannot afford to work in

this sector. And so QP and OPSU have a campaign to try to work together as unions, which is

also something that's really important that I think is something we haven't done well as

unions. We separate ourselves into, you um know, union, by union, right? Like we see ourselves

as QP members or as public sector workers. No, we're all actually facing the same attacks

and we're all stronger together if we don't figure out a way to work together across bargaining

units, across sectors, across unions, and even with workers who are non-unionized, we will

continue to keep losing and we are not winning right now, right? And that's... That's why

you're seeing, I think, this wave of courage and action is because people can see and feel

that, objectively speaking, we're just not keeping up with the rising cost of living.

When you say pushback in terms of cuts that are happening within the sector, do you mean

during the collective bargaining as well as oh in the proverbial in the streets? Because

I think there's a distinction there, right, where folks are making calls that not just

wages and really worker issues. em I mean, in the broad sense, we can make the argument that

even Palestine is a workers issue, but I'm talking about the easiest sell to all your workers,

Arrays, benefits, job protection. em But working battles with the government in terms of fighting

back with cuts in the collective bargaining. Is that something you would propose to do?

more of? Yeah, mean, like, look, there's not really that clear of a distinction to me between

where, like, the working conditions of the workers and then the people that they take

care of, right? Like, if you're not treating your workers well, and you're not compensating

them, and that inevitably is they work in a workplace, right? And that inevitably is becomes

the service that people who are being cared for by those workers receive, right? If you

can't keep staff and there's a constant turnover of staff, right? Like you're dealing with somebody

new every time you access a service. I think the hospital sector is a sector that I really

see where, um and these are folks that traditionally do not have the right to strike in the hospital

sector, but. Hospitals are so underfunded that they're having to borrow money from private

lending institutions and have to pay to borrow that money. Like this makes absolutely no sense

in terms of where are we spending our tax dollars when we're not funding hospitals appropriately.

But like half of the battle is that folks are really struggling as workers because they can't,

there's not enough of them. They can't deliver the care. that the public needs, right? And

so these things always go hand in hand, like these massive privatizations that we're seeing

of the healthcare system, which is not something new. We've been seeing this for two decades,

at least, if not longer. And now these real moves being made in Alberta to completely

privatize healthcare and create a two-tier system. Right? And these are again, right? So like

you're seeing workers speaking out about this. They work with the Ontario Health Coalition

to raise the issue of privatization and underfunding. And that goes, of course, hand in hand with

the wages and the working conditions. So it's all of these things, think, Jessa, right? Like

this all comes in a package together. Like it's so difficult to tease out which is which.

But yeah, for, you know, like I think we have to be strategic and think about. um How do

you win these fights when it comes to particular sectors, right? Where everybody's separated

into these small bargaining units and employers are coordinated as the example I just gave

with what we're seeing with social services, right? Like within two, three weeks, all of

a sudden, all of these employers were forcing ratification votes. They are coordinated and

when we are not, That is where the issue rises. You folks want to spend some time talking about

the other changes, things that would shape up your platform moving forward. I know, you you

spoke very highly of Fred and his time at CUPE, but I'm sure you've also got ideas about how

the union could operate a little bit differently. Yeah, I think. Over the last while, like I've

been involved for a decade and we've seen unions in general, if you look through like union

history, like we've gone away from like member driven organizing and gone towards like servicing

administration and like centralized decision making. But sure, like it created strong institutions,

um but weaker day to day member engagement. And I think we're finally just coming out of

that period um where we need to invest. in the rank and file members. And we need to invest

in educating those rank and file members. And we've seen, Catherine touched on the fragmentation

within our union as well, like sectors bargaining separately, locals operating independently,

everybody likes their autonomy. We're all facing the same issues. There's a multitude of campaigns

out there that are not consistently coordinated, even when the issues are shared, privatization,

funding cuts, staffing. So getting folks on the same page to be like a worker is a worker

is a worker. We're a public sector union. The job that a paramedic is doing affects the job

of a PSW. The cuts that are affecting a hospital will affect a healthcare worker and a healthcare

worker's child. um So I think educating the members for sure and inspiring change from

the rank and file. Like change is gonna come from grassroots movements. It always has, it

always will. So empowering those people to take leadership positions and not even formalize

leadership positions, but leadership positions in their workplace, in their unit, to just

have conversations about this and start educating folks. uh Because I think people are tired.

I think workers are tired. But I think when we're in spaces and where we see the collective

powers of workers, like at a rally, I think that inspires people. And we forget that We

have so much more in common with each other as workers than we do with CEOs, bosses, or

supervisors. When I look at the platforms that people are putting out or the way that these

elections are being talked about or even messaging from our union more broadly, I think everybody

pretty much is on the same page about what we're facing. But I think the solutions that are

being proposed are quite different. Right. So, I mean, like, let's be real. We've invested

in electoral politics as a solution to workers' issues for quite a while now. Right. And,

you know, like, I can see how that made sense because until the last few years, workers were

not willing to take job action. They were not willing to speak publicly. Right. Bargaining

did happen behind closed doors and members didn't really push back on that. Right? And things

have changed. And um so proposing those same solutions, don't think works any longer.

And we really think that the idea of, I really think the idea of putting class politics forward

is something that we have not done as a union. We were just talking about this the other

day. So... QP has a great education program. I don't think we have a single course that

talks about class. I don't ever remember taking a course or hearing about a course that talks

about class. I know, I'm seeing your face just after you. How is that even possible? Right?

I assumed your union was a den of Marxism. I'm sure Ford thinks that, right? I'm sure

he was not. Yeah. So... And I think this is why it becomes so easy for everybody to

fragment because people don't have an understanding. I think this is what you were getting at, Chris,

that is like, are working class people. We have to go into work every day in order to

be able to pay for rent and feed ourselves. Right? We have nothing. I have nothing in

common with Canadian CEOs that or like people that own companies that never have to work

a day in their life. Everybody else does the work for them. Right? And so this is class,

right? And we don't focus enough on that. I think our members don't have a clear understanding

of that. without that clear understanding, it becomes very difficult to propose an effective

solution to what's happening. And I think the power is not in electoral politics. Do

we ignore electoral politics? No. Right? Like we have to engage with politicians. We are

public sector workers. But to constantly say that the answer is we just have to elect the

right people, we just have to elect the right people. OK, let's look at what's happening

in B.C. where the NDP was just elected. They're slashing public sector jobs. The last I heard,

10,000 public sector jobs will be cut. Right. They're there, you know, introducing a budget

that cuts in the public sector. Right. So. When I hear that this is the solution and

that's the solution that we have to invest in, I just don't think that realistically that's

what we see when we look at the real world, right? Politicians get elected all the time

who we campaign for very actively. And then they turn around and do things that are not

in our interest as workers. And there's no accountability mechanism. Why? because we haven't

built up our own capacity as members to even hold them accountable, right? Yeah. Yeah. And

it was uh the uh government in BC, the NDP government that put BCGEU out for eight weeks. So I just

wanted to echo what Catherine was saying. Like no politician is coming in to save us. And

we increasingly rely on electoral politics, lobbying, and relationships with government.

We know that like can't replace organized workers and the power of organized workers itself.

um So I just wanted to echo that. Like I think focusing on the actual capacity of building

workers, educating workers um is a more valuable use of time and resources. You're not going

to find me arguing with that point. My grin there was just like, oh, how bad I want to

ask them about their union endorsing um Abby Lewis as the next NDP leadership. We won't

get into uh that all that much. But QP Ontario is known for working very closely with the

Ontario NDP. um That's kind of a bold move. think, you we've seen a lot of people make

an endorsement one way or the other, but a union to tie themselves to a party so much

that they are opining on its leadership race like that is, you know, is a big signal that

they work closely together. And if anyone's been at convention, there's a lot of QP resources,

time, and political capital. tie it to a person who might let you down or let the rest of the

province down. You are, I think, unnecessarily making these connections for folks that they

are somehow with the ruling class, right? Like they're in with the ruling class and that is

a good thing. um So yeah, absolutely no arguments there. I would love to see some of that change,

right? The argument is that you you wield so much more power when you aren't beholden to

them in any way. When you feel no ways about... being able to push back against something like

that, Let's, Catherine, you mentioned, did you want to add something there? Did someone,

someone took that breath that? Yeah, I know. I just, you know, just to add that like putting

all of the details aside, think worker power comes from their work in workplaces and shaping

that work. and stopping that work strategically when it needs to be done. That's where real

worker power comes from. And I think when I see folks who go out on strike, like we saw

with education workers a few years back, what I heard people talk about is this like incredible

feeling of power that they have in those moments where they've collectively walked off the

job. and are feeling power because they are powerful, right? And it's moments like that

that I think really like crystallize for me. Do you ever feel that way after you've gone

to vote? I don't. Don't be ridiculous, Catherine. It's that feeling, but that feeling says

everything about where workers power. lies. It's in the workplace. It's not at the ballot

box. Catherine, you mentioned you were very gracious, I think, in your answer where you

said there's just a range of solutions being proposed. Now, we don't have to name any names

or anything like that. But can you give me an idea of what your opposition is going to

look like? Is there going to be a move? ah on the right wing to gain some positions at

QP Ontario's convention. Is the myriad of solutions being proposed all still like, can they be

categorized as progressive? Or is there an internal threat that you folks feel like you might be

pushing back against? Because, you know, there was a campaign to oust Fred, assuming there's

people behind that campaign that might be now interested in this regime change, right?

em Can we assume it's just going to go, quote unquote, our way? Like, look, I think it's

generally quite a confused situation when I look at it. um I think what I'm seeing more

than anything is individuals stepping up to run um rather than any kind of coherent political

outlook. I would say that's what I see more of. It's just... you know, like me as an

individual, these are the things that I'm putting forward or, you know, I've done this for a

long time or I did a good job in my previous position. That's almost the level of, and you

know, it's still early, right? Because I think the real discussions are going to happen at

convention. um But it's hard to even know where the left and the right is within the union

sometimes. it's, it's, Because, well, because I think there isn't really a clear left.

Maybe it's more like there isn't really a clear left in the sense that I would think of a

left, right? And maybe my definition is a little bit different because I think of the left

as existing outside of electoral politics. um And I don't think that that's the case for

everybody. Like I think for other folks, they would see the NDP as being left, right? But

that can't be the entire plan that we have as an union of what are we doing when we're

facing these like attacks that frankly I've never seen in my lifetime on the working class

and on, in the case of QP, public services in general. The one thing that this election

is highlighting is that there is a huge disconnect from the rank and file workers. And we have

a disconnection problem, I think, in our union. We can go up there and we can stand up and

be like, we're 290,000 members strong. Are we? Are we talking to those rank and file members?

Are we working with them or are we working within a vacuum of uh elected leaders? Are we reaching

out into communities and talking to the workers there? I think the stat, I'm gonna get the

stat wrong. But I think it was like one in three people were and or is a CUPE member. I think,

I think I'll get you the actual facts on that. But are we engaging with those people? Do

they know they're part of a union or are we just engaging with kind of like the upper upper

echelon of elected officials? And I think that's one thing that since I've been elected, I've

tried to stomp out. Like I come from a really small local, like we're like 240 members. um

we don't really get like the big opportunities to go to conferences and kind of like rub

elbows with other presidents. It really comes from like that, like rank and file work. um

So I think I bring a different perspective of that, that like we need to engage with the

rank and file or we won't be powerful in the times ahead. And I think that's what we really

need to lean into. So we're seeing folks kind of just. put out a resume, right? Like this

is what I've done, this is what I've done. Not this is what I'm going to do. And this is how

I'm gonna challenge the next, the budget dropping on the 26, which is probably gonna be horrendous

for workers, or how are we gonna engage more workers? I'm not really seeing a lot of that

through this campaign so far, but like Catherine said, it is early. And I think a lot of the

conversations have come up incredibly early, which I think is, good in one way because

we can get members involved and people talking. But yeah, there's still so many fights in

the meantime of this election period. that's where I struggle as someone running because

I'm focused on this campaign, but I'm also focused on the work that we're doing with OMERS, the

work that we're doing against water privatization as well. So yeah, it's going to be an interesting

couple of months. But I think what I'm happy with is that um we have strong candidates that

are focused on engaging rank and file workers so we can actually say how large we are and

feel it and feel that that worker presence behind us. Sorry, just a clarifying question. You

said you have candidates, plural. I have two here, obviously, but is that a slate or is

this like Catherine kind of described just, you know, uh rag-tag bunch of friends deciding

that we're all gonna run, but we can't bother branding ourselves. Listen, no one likes the

slate word. I Sorry. I think there's folks that, ah and Catherine, can interrupt me

if I'm wrong, that agree to a certain um platform or values and that we want to bring to other

workers. ah and talk to other workers about it at convention and elevate those ideas as

kind of like a running board, I guess, for our union. Like, look, I think because going

back to my other answer, right, because we don't have solidified politics within the union,

part of what we're trying to do is put forward these more like worker led um more challenging,

you know, like more challenge to the employer as opposed to focusing so much on elections.

um And in putting these ideas forward, like we hope that there will be other folks that

are like, hey, yeah, I think I also think that this is what we need in this moment. So part

of this is trying to solidify a group of people. One of the things that I think would be really

important for QP Ontario to do right now is to uh hold a series of meetings in different

parts of the province to really have an open process of going to locals or groups of locals

that are in a geographic area, meeting with the members and saying, look, like, This is

the political framework of kind of what we're seeing happening in terms of like leadership

from QP Ontario. But you tell us what are you actually experiencing in your workplaces? What's

happening in this part of the province? And most importantly, what are you willing to

do about that? Right, because I find a lot of the time when we engage with members, we're

telling them like, this is what we're gonna do, this is the plan. We're not actually listening

and providing a space for members to try to organize themselves and to move forward from

that. And there is no way that we will be able to turn this situation around without uh members

coming up with the plan together. and figuring out ways to execute that plan. And again, broadening

that to include other unions as well, uh and even non-union workers. So there is so much

activity going on. It's a little bit, you know, not uniform, but then we're seeing different

battles happening, right? Like in Niagara, where there's a restructuring of the municipality,

talk about privatization of water. right? Just like an entire restructuring of Niagara region,

then there's other parts where something different is happening. But how do we start connecting

all of that and connecting members so that they feel like they're a part of something bigger

and that we do have bigger power? And I think there's one thing that I've consistently heard

from CUPE, right, it's like this value on the Jane McAlevey model of organizing, which to

me is just like, we need to go talk to the workers and see what the workers want to do. Like,

that's what I think really needs to happen. And I think CUPE Ontario can provide that in

ways that no individual local is going to be able to do. To me, this is the reason why

we have an Ontario-wide structure of our union, is to... to be able to do that kind of work.

I wonder, I've never kind of gone through a union election slash convention. What you described

there though, sounds like what I would suggest that people do in order to run a campaign

before convention, you know, to meet as many locals as possible and base your platform

on what these folks are asking. What does your campaign look like? Like what? will you be

able to do leading up to the convention? I know a lot happens on the floor and you do

most of your work there, but what are you going to do between then and now, other than appear

on podcasts, uh to engage in the way that you're talking about, right? To walk the talk. I

think just talking to members and it's like, oh my God, stop saying that. But I think talking

to as many people one-on-one um and really making them think about this election, um think

about the state that we're in, proposing those questions to them. we prioritizing organizing

or administration? Are members expected to participate or just be represented? Do we build capacity

before fights or do we scramble during them? And I think putting that in workers' minds

and letting that like grassroots organizing go from there. um What we've been doing is

really just at any opportunity we can, are you a QP member? um Take a look at this. I'm

running for election and just hopefully letting it go grassroots. I'm always open to talk

to locals as well. So it sounds just like an NDP election where you don't have access

to a membership list or you're not, there's no structured way for you to campaign in

the traditional way, you know, the way the elect... um municipal, provincial, federal elections

go, right? You're given an electoral list, you know where everybody lives, you knock on their

door, you don't need to say, are you a QB member? You know, and ideally you'd be given a list.

This creates a power imbalance sometimes in other conventions because some people will

have more access than others. So I don't know, I just thought maybe you could also give me

another idea of just how these campaigns shape up. especially from a grassroots perspective

where you might not be able to access as many rooms before the floor, right? Because I mean,

that's like the speech, there's a bit of mingling that you can do there, but that's a high pressure,

time-limited situation versus the months that you have before you. em Just curious, because

uh folks that are listening... are involved in union elections. And if there's anything

that you think that you're doing that's going to be more effective or that you have planned

that will let you bridge that gap and reach as many people as possible beforehand. Yeah,

I'm not sure. Like what I do want to say is I think I kind of caught on to the part where

you said like walk, walk the walk. Right. And I think the work is constant. Right. And

this is Like put the election piece aside, right? Like the work around what's happening

in the municipal sector, um the work that's being done around our pension plan. uh There's

been issues around the OMERS pension plan and it's not just municipalities. uh It's also

education workers that are in that pension plan as well as some social service workers

as well. Right? Like that work is continuous and it's continuously being done and there's,

you know, continuous connections that we make with members. I don't know that we're so much

talking to them about our elections. That's not right. You're going to have to at some

point. Yeah, we will. That's true. Right. And this is this is a difficulty and this goes

back to what, you know, Krista mentioned is that the average QP member doesn't come to

convention. Right? And so reaching out to members to talk to them about what's happening in their

workplace is not necessarily the same thing as talking to them about an election because

chances are they're not going to be at that convention. Are there, you know, folks that

we know that are activists and they're locals that we're reaching out to? Absolutely. Right?

Like we we are having those conversations, but that's not, I wouldn't say like embedded in

the day to day work that we're doing. um The day-to-day work is being done and it's like,

um I'm not going to tell you I'm going to do something different than I feel like what I've

been doing in the union all along, right? Like, I think both of us have always, um and I

think this is how we kind of click together, right? Is this like, go talk to the members,

bring the presentation to the members, hear what they have to say, create space for workers

to organize themselves in these like, models that we have right now. um You know, like connect

with other organizations that are doing work around, you know, attacks on immigrants that

are happening right now. Right? Like, because that's, that's the other piece that I don't

think we've so much talked about is like the the the international or the internationalism,

if you will. um for lack of a better word, understanding that the working class is so

much broader than just, you know, again, QP members or members of a particular bargaining

unit and that our interests are tied up with things that are happening internationally,

right? Like we're seeing this incredible rise in war and aggression. And the end effect

of that is that we have a government, a federal government that's saying, We're going to divert

all of this money to basically build, I don't want to say war munitions, basically, to support

the war effort and to support the military and to, yeah, to build munitions, right? 5 % of

the GDP is supposed to go to that. The military budget is being doubled, right? And that is

all money that's being taken out of healthcare. out of social services, out of municipal services,

right? That money is being taken from us and this is part of the reason that our healthcare

is being privatized and that education workers can't do their job properly and are dealing

with this incredible level of violence that are understaffed. um So these things are fundamentally

connected. And I think that was the other thing that, you know. we wanted to touch on. And

I don't think that other folks are necessarily seeing that as being part of union work, but

it is absolutely connected. It's important to make that point, Catherine. I'm glad you did

raise it, especially on the migrant workers and the attacks on immigrants, because even

within the Canadian labor uh sphere, under Trump and the tariff threats and all of that,

that elbows up mentality became a very insular project, a very Canadian worker focused campaigns.

you know, the CLC made some not very helpful statements into that regard where folks became,

uh whereas that leaves room to scapegoat migrants, I believe, you know, when we were starting

to talking about taking care of Canadians and Canadians first. um then that leaves a large

sector of workers completely unrepresented and worse, right? They become the problem. So

is that something you think QB could do a little bit better? Because I've seen QB work close

with migrant rights before. Is that something that you would spend a little bit more resources

on? So I am from Oshawa and like growing up you saw... a specific situation where we

blamed migrant workers from taking away jobs in this community instead of holding the corporation

accountable. And I'm grateful for what I've learned from activists like Catherine and

shout out to our last QP Cast episode where she did a report back uh on her trip to the

Philippines. But I think it is important and we do need to invest in it because there's

no other areas. that I can think of where we are having these discussions. uh I think we're

getting flooded by right-wing social media all the time and this anti-immigrant sentiment

is being pushed down our throat. uh And I think we need to create spaces within our unions

to have these conversations and invest in these conversations um to just start strengthening

class solidarity. um Because I think when we do that and when people are in a room and

we're talking about it, some of those misconceptions around migrant workers um seem to clear up.

And I think like when we do invest in that time and resources, it only strengthens the labor

movement as a whole. And labor movement as unionized, non-unionized workers, workers with status,

workers without status. Yeah, and I think it's been so incredible to see some of the self-organizing

that these immigrant communities have done through organizations like Najwaan Support

Network over the years, right? Like, which goes back to showing us that like, you can

like definitely organize outside of these effectively actually organized to take on employers and

get back on paid wages outside of a union structure, right? Like that's been so inspiring to see,

but Yeah, the attack on immigrants that we're witnessing and I think it is actually like

really important to also point out to workers that this happens like clockwork every single

time that employing class, whatever you want to call them, ruling class, employing class,

the economic elites. are making your lives worse, you can feel it. And so they want to find a

scapegoat so that we are not looking up at them to say who's actually responsible and who needs

to be held accountable because they're taking things away from us. Right. And so they want

workers fighting amongst each other, whether it's about people's gender identity, whether

it's racism, whether it's you don't have immigration status, you come from another country. This

is how you know, employers separate workers and benefit from these separations because

then there actually is no solidarity to fight back in any meaningful way. know you've pointed

out and reiterated that you have a lot of hope in seeing some patterns with workers, that

there have been some victories, but I think for the broader public, times are shit. It's

scary politically, economically. I don't think I really need to describe it. We're all feeling

it. We all know exactly what I'm talking about. We're not all in unions. Why should we be

interested in how QP conventions shape up and what this QP leadership might look like going

forward? How can a strong public sector union change? the course of what we're happening

right now. I mean, not on their own, but how does that play a role in the project that

we've got moving forward? You know, the political revolution our listeners are desperate for.

I think when you look historically, the only times that workers have made serious gains

is because we've been incredibly organized and active and actually consciously fighting for

those gains in huge numbers. um And that is the only force that has won things in the

past. Contrary to the stories that we get told, these things were never given to us. We fought

like hell for them and we won them. so any union, whether it's CUPE or any other union

or any other organization of workers that wants to move things in that direction, I think gives

hope that we can rebuild that once again. Yeah, no, uh I think because we are a public sector

union, I think there's that connection with when we invest in strong public services,

the impact on community and the positive impacts that has on community as well. um What we've

been trying to do and what I hope to see more with Keeping Ontario is start connecting with

community issues as well, because worker issues are community issues. um And hopefully people

will like kind of change that narrative that it's like, that's public sector union. Like

they only care about the public sector, but realize that like when we bargain good wage

increases, we raise the floor for workers. Like Catherine said, when we, when we follow through

on health and safety issues and we, we push hard on those, it raises the, creates better

conditions for other workers. Um, and when we invest. in strong public services, it improves

our quality of life as residents of Ontario. And I think that's something that I want to

lean into because the underinvestment from the sport government is killing people, right?

With hospital wait times, that's affecting children's education. They're fucking privatizing

our fucking water. Like, fuck. I mean, if now's the time to like connect worker issues

to community issues, like This is the time to do it, right? And specifically, sorry,

I just wanted to touch specifically on water because I think that does get to part of your

question, Jessa. So one thing that I've been so encouraged by is like, workers understand

that their working conditions are the public services that folks receive, right? So seeing

water. uh workers who work in the public sector stepping up and saying, like, I am warning

you as somebody who actually does this job, that lives will be lost, costs will go up,

and corporations are just going to make a profit while we suffer. And explicitly standing publicly

and saying that in a press conference, to me, is like, that right there exactly shows

you um that these issues are connected and that public sector workers care so deeply and

so incredibly because they're doing this work every single day. And they know that the end

effect of that is that folks get clean water or that, you know, um children in schools

get taken care of appropriately as education workers, right? So I think... where we have

work to do is building genuine long-term coalitions with communities. um And I don't think we always

do that as well as we could, right? I think sometimes those things just kind of get thrown

together at the last minute and they're not really that grassroots and they're not really

that real. And there is a lot of work to be done in seeing that these are actually bigger

struggles and expanding our horizons and the way that we do organizing and the way that

we do work so that there are meaningful and mutually reciprocal relationships that allow

us to not just have a short fight and say, okay, so there won't be privatization. of water

in Niagara today, but like actually how can we have better water delivery across the entire

province and for indigenous communities, for example, that don't even have clean water right

now, right? And so these are the possibilities of broadening these struggles and ways to do

it meaningfully, which I don't always think we're so good at right now. And I think there's

a lot of room to work on that. We just want a general strike. Hell yeah. Fuck all that.

Come on. I don't have time for that, Catherine. I want to hear if we win, we'll call a general

strike. That's how it works, right? But it does take work, right? It does take work. And

like, I'm hopeful that this convention and the coming together of members and like trying

to digest these very real issues and figuring out a freaking game plan for how we win, because

that's the most important thing. What the hell are we doing to win, to turn this back, to

actually win? Like we need massive investments in public sector in this country, right? Like

we need free public services. Like there's just so many ways that these services are being

monetized, treated like the private sector, you know, and there's just so much incredible

work to do. And I think we have to like really actually think big and dream big. and try

to start figuring out ways for how to do that. And I am hopeful that this convention moves

us in that direction. And the worst that's gonna happen is it doesn't. And we continue what

we're doing right now. And it's just gonna take another two, five years for people to

realize, hey, you know what? This isn't fricking working. We need to do something different.

And I just don't wanna have to wait that long because like Krista said, people are losing

their lives because of the way that cuts are being made in the public sector and also just

like people not having access to social programs and to just like basic fucking human needs

that we are more than capable as a rich society of providing for everybody. The latest cuts

to safe consumption sites just came to mind when you said, you know, people will die. It's

just the most glaring example of like cause. and effects m and immediate. um So that may

not be related to your particular union, but it's what came up and it's right across the

board. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was when he announced it at AMO, I think that

was not last summer, but the summer before, m because municipal workers have the library

committees, right? And if they're not going to, if folks aren't using that safe consumption

sites, they're going to the library. They're going to the library. And I think even with

saying that connection to other workers who aren't as educated and just were like, well,

what does that have to do with us? Well, our fellow library workers that we're on this committee

with are experiencing the direct blowback from that legislation. And I think continuing to

educate and tie that to members is something that like I think Catherine and I are both

just nonstop doing because those issues are worker issues. That's a worker issue. A thousand

percent that's a worker issue. Yeah. We have no third spaces left anymore. Right. So the

libraries do become that public space. Yeah. And QP also represents workers that were working

at some of these safe consumption sites. Right. And there was work being done around this that

I was aware of about a year, maybe a year ago. I think there was a bargaining unit that was

bargaining in Toronto where one of these sites had just been closed. yeah, this is the unfortunate

reality of what happens when we don't have that union power is that these changes are being

made, right? And who, these are our family members who are dying from overdoses, right?

Like these are working class people that are, again, our family members. Yeah. The issues

are many, the at least the enemies are few, right? If we could just get everyone pointed

in the right direction, it wouldn't seem so overwhelming perhaps. um Let's do some of the

where, what and when. You mentioned it's in a few months. When is CUPE going to elect

a new leadership? May 27th. I think our convention. I believe is May 27 to May 30. um And throughout

that whole process, there will be elections for the president, secretary, treasurer. There's

four VPs, ah six member at larges. There's also um equity seats that are elected within equity

caucuses as well during that convention. So lots of elections throughout that whole entire

convention. I believe it is May 27th to May 30th. And I think some of the sectors, the

representatives that sit on the executive board from the sectors are being elected at sector

conferences as well. ah So some of these elections will be happening and have already happened

outside of the actual convention itself. Well, I'll be sure to pay attention because we often

talk here on the show, we lament, know, where is this, you know, I joked about it, but like,

where is labor? Where is this general strike? We always have these moments where Doug Ford

does something off. We're like, this is it. This is going to set everybody off. Everyone

needs to get pissed about this. And it's so interrelated. And, you know, we just, we're

not there yet. And a lot of people don't understand how unions work. um It frustrated that they

actually are. uh replicas of society and that they're not these politicized spaces full of

radicals like we'd love them to be. So, but we don't really know what that work looks like

to get it done. So we'll follow you, we'll watch this campaign, and then when you're in

a position to show us exactly how that works being done, we'll call you back and you can

talk about all those successes that you're racking up doing this work a little bit differently

this time. Is there anything you didn't get to say that you would like to say? Yeah, just

I want to like quickly go back to when we were talking about the structures of elections.

And I think that's why it's important that like rank and file members just get engaged because

of our kind of electoral structure. So if members aren't engaged in our union democracy, those

decisions of who represent us get concentrated at the top. And I think with that, we become

less responsive, less effective and less tied to the members. So I kind of just wanted to

go back to that um because that's, that is a big part of our platform. Getting members

engaged and recognizing that the power that they have as workers, as CUPE members as well,

because what's happening in their local um can affect what's happening in Ontario, right?

And educating rank and file members, I think, is incredibly important, or it's a false sense

of democracy in a way, right? So getting them equally empowered for these QPA Ontario uh

elections is important for sure. And I think that also makes me think of, you know, just

reiterating to people, like, you don't need to hold an elected union position to actually

move things forward in the union, right? Like, sometimes we just have this idea that, like,

oh, it's about this union position. It's not. You can do the work and you really should

be doing the work of organizing around particular issues in the workplace, right? And the most

effective work of the most effective power of a union comes from the workplace, right?

So you don't need to sit on the QP Ontario executive board to actually make change um within like

the broader workers, workers movement, workers struggle. Sometimes folks forget that and it's

like, whether I win an election or I don't win an election, the work is going to continue.

I'm still gonna keep organizing to make things better, whether it's in my workplace or in

any other capacity. Being elected to a position does not equal doing effective work and leadership

work within the union. And I think it's important to remember. That is a good reminder and I'll

be sure to link some related episodes because we do have one there in the archives that where

a guest came on and talked about bringing motions forward through your locals and how to best

get involved there and to tie in local organizations to that process em so that you're bringing

ideas from the community as well as from the workforce. So yes, very good point, Catherine.

I'm so glad you folks came on. haven't touched base with Catherine in too long, but yeah,

folks are interested, especially in this little niche that is my audience, where there is a

lot of folks from Ontario who are heavily invested in labor politics, who see Fred leaving and

are in despair, you know, and so they want to know what's going to happen to that union.

And I think they were... going to be much more hopeful having heard from the two of you and

knowing that you've also got other comrades that you are hopeful about. So I appreciate

you taking the time to share it with us and best of luck. Thank you for having us on.

And yeah, we also hope for the best out of this entire convention um and hope to hear

other voices saying things that are similar to the lines that we're thinking along. And

Jessa, thank you so much for giving us the opportunity to have a voice through your platform. Thank

you so much. Thank you for joining us. Also, a very big thank you to the producer of our

show, Santiago Helu-Quintero. Blueprints of Disruption is an independent production operated

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