Episode #30 Season 24: Shaun Boyce & Justin Yeo

In this episode of 10 Minutes of Tennis, Shaun and Justin bring on special guest David Matthews to continue the conversation about making changes to our tennis game as we age.

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Shaun Boyce USPTA: shaun@tennisforchildren.com

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Justin Yeo: https://www.instagram.com/yeocoach/

Bobby Schindler USPTA: schindlerb@comcast.net

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Geovanna Boyce: geovy@regeovinate.com

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With that said, let's get started with 10 minutes of tennis.

[Music]

Good morning, we have just in Yeo, a world-renowned tennis coach in Australia.

Wait, Aussie in Australia is what I'm supposed to say.

And we will enjoy his t-shirt without mentioning it.

So we appreciate you being here this morning.

We also have a special guest star, which that phrase I think is usually reserved for musicians.

And no, it's not that Dave Matthews.

We have the actual Dave Matthews with us, who next time we'll get him

maybe his bike friendly Atlanta background.

Like I've got my go-tennis background.

We'll talk to creative, that's what they call it these days.

We'll talk to creative about that Dave.

But first, what I want to do, Justin, is I want to recap.

Because this is a follow-up conversation.

It's a follow-up conversation from our What to Change after 40 initial conversation.

I want you, if you don't mind, give us a quick recap.

Keep it 90 seconds if you can to what we were talking about.

What do we mean by What to Change after 40 when it comes to tennis?

I think what we were talking about is making sure you know where your limitations are

and trying to become more, I guess, what we call efficient in your swing.

And so not trying to hit the ball the same as you were in your 20s.

And make some adjustments.

And you can do that just even staying within your own swing,

but just being a little more mechanically minded, I guess,

to the word or by mechanically minded.

If we want to speak it that way.

But I see a lot of guys over 40 struggling on surge, struggling on forearms,

struggling on ready stance.

There's a whole bunch of things that they start to lose as they get all the because of posture.

So over 40 focus on mobility, focus on agility, focus on taking care of your body.

And make some adjustments in your swing as the quickest way I can tell you.

Internal rotation at the shoulder,

stop coming all the way back here, make it a little shorter and compact.

And you'll be amazed how much harder you can still hit the ball.

Now to just me a little more, I guess the way it's compact and understanding your limitations after 40.

Understand your limitations. I like that a lot.

That's why I see you see the older players kind of just bring the arm up and take a quick serve

and just get the point started because they're not necessarily coming in,

hitting ACEs anymore. There's a humility that comes with aging.

Dave, stop.

Just because you're a terrible example of these things.

I don't appreciate that.

Tommy has his Instagram lately showing like a 45,

fact in the ball.

Funny, really, and he goes about two steps this way, two steps that way.

He's not really moving. That's what I heard about the same thing with Carlos Alcaraz

and hitting with Juan Carlos Ferreira.

Ferreiro can still hit with Alcaraz as long as he doesn't have to go to the other side of the court.

If you see him hitting, he's a little more compact on both sides.

He doesn't get as much rotation as he does, but he's still incredible.

You see, you can see he's doing the same thing.

You can just stand there once, watch, go, bang, bang, bang, like table tennis.

Let's see you kick him through.

In that case, there's a humility to it.

That's when I want to next go to Dave and say, "Okay, Dave, you got a couple of years on us."

Get a few years on us.

I want to ask the next question that says, "If I'm 45, I'm actually 46.

Justin's 50. If you're 60, you've had that experience of being through your 50s.

What have you had to change even further? Is there more humility that says, "Okay, I'm a little

bit older." I will point out that you're a terrible example of this being some superhero tennis player.

But as the example of how do you make that adjustment into your 50s after your 40s?

Yeah, I agree. I've done things probably wacko different than most people.

Like Justin said, taking care of your body. You know as well as anybody, I'm an icing freak.

Not too many people have 15 blue ice packs in their freezer waiting to come home every night.

And just because of teaching, you put them on your legs so that you hopefully survive longer.

Like somebody says, "Long time's in tennis, it's not a sprint."

It's a long drawn out two, three hour match. It's got a lot of twists and turns in it.

But anyway, getting over 50 and still playing, I was still playing double-aid 1 tennis.

One of my great partners, Scott Lindsey. I tell people all the time, he carried me all the time.

He's a great guy. He's going to say, "No, I didn't." You're served with doing pretty well.

I said, "Yeah, 52. I was doing pretty well."

Still playing national international events. But at 50, I started, I didn't really notice it because

the one thing I will say going through 40 to 50, if you're still very active, playing was,

you don't lose that much. I didn't. Now like you said, maybe that's just a rare case.

But most people don't live in a tennis environment like I did. They work nine to five.

They have kids and family and I get it. That's all part of the mix.

I get the same thing, but I still play in an national event.

So, losing it, the old additive, if you don't use it, you lose it. It is true.

It is true. Before worn, when you stop using it on a weekly basis, you're going to lose it.

And lose parts of it slowly but surely, it gets in there.

So anyway, but last five to seven years, when I was going to do another period of my life,

I have learned that over 60, you better get ready because what you have lost, gaining it back is a

ginormous change. You get it. You get it. You get it. You get my humility. It's crazy.

But back to what Justin was saying about your mobility, or it even dominoes again.

Maybe one of my, I was telling, I remember what I was in my college years and I'd get up in the middle of

No Man's Land. People, oh, you got a coach in that coach. I said, just listen. I'm working on my

80 and over game. And they're like, what are you talking about? I go. I played with people that were 70 and 80

years old when I was young and they stand in the middle of No Man's Land. I know why now. And I used to laugh

at it, but hey, I'm there. And you know, things you change, I dropped shots a lot more because I know

everybody on my court playing as a super seniors now at 65 and over. Everybody's mobility is

challenged. Everybody's. So it's another game. You start like Justin says, you, you make amendments to

your strokes, you make them a little shorter, you know, as long as you're hitting a lot, you still got

some muscle strength to help support the racket. The rackets now do a lot more than what we grew up with.

So don't push it. Use it, you know, and we know as well as anybody, people don't learn to use the

racket like they should. They want to use that brute strength that ego, I call it the ego.

You know, ego comes in one basketball, you can cut your swing down 25% and hit the same ball. But

as you get older, you don't have that option. Your body starts going, oh my god, I think I just

tore my rotated cuff hitting a forehand. I mean, what are you doing? You got to cut it down a little

smaller, you know, like Justin says, you got to cut your stroke a little and use the strength you have

to reproduce the same ball that Justin play. That makes sense. So there's a humility there now. How

much different did you say, and you say that it's that daily, if you're playing tennis daily, let's say

the normal tennis player, the average tennis player is playing once, maybe the average one and a half

times a week. Yeah, it's probably an average. Maybe they get in a practice. It's not like you or

Justin where you're on court, potentially getting a chance to hit balls every like hit balls, like

not like me bouncing a orange dot ball to kids, but you're hitting real tennis balls and you're getting

to feel that and you don't really lose it. For me, I saw I took three years off from playing tennis

and it's it's gone. Everything I got is gone. And all I had was those cool things that I could do.

There's no way I'm going to beat Justin head to head. I'm hitting 97 drop shots and just hoping

that he breaks his ankle so I can win this match. But I'm going to make some changes trying to get

it back and saying, okay, Justin and I talked about the different types of serve. Is it possible Justin

maybe the serve that I had no longer is the serve that I need? And now as I as I pass that 40 into 50

and there's a humility there Justin that you agree with? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I don't believe

in that teaching old dog new tricks. I mean, you can teach it out to do new tricks in a different way

within what they already know. And that's why I keep saying you can keep playing. You just can't keep playing

the way you were in your 20s. And if you can let go of that, you actually can still keep playing.

And another really cool, cool stat or help on all of this is Vic Braden, one of the most

biggest legends ever of this game. And I wouldn't say necessarily playing what is, but his knowledge

and what he did for this sport is off the charts. And one of the things he really showed is that

because of the speed between racket to racket in the last three generations, there's just no way

I'll play it and get from the baseline to a service line without having to hit another ball.

You just can't get past. So if everyone say close to it, close to them like, when do you talk about that?

You got to be Carlos and be quick enough to get past them the baseline to serve slide and still now the ball.

So that was Vic one. Sorry, Justin was Vic one. It was either one that said you get two steps.

He'd hit to serve two steps and then you hit the next ball two steps. Was anything brain?

He was he was yes. And he was also one of the first guys that said we have to scrap the split step.

We have to create the reaction step, which is one foot in the next one or one foot in the next one.

So you never split step and then move to the volley. You actually split with one foot and move to another foot.

So then you're always two steps ahead and he proved if you practice that enough, your split step becomes one leg

and then push to this where you see it. But you're now two steps ahead when you make contact.

And he was saying that's the only way we're going to get to the net with the speed between racket to racket now.

And that's even an amateur level because what we have to understand amateur level, professional level,

the pros just process the ball and process and you know like know what's going to happen

quicker than what an amateur does. So it's the same same stuff. It's just you just kind of get to the net

passing up. So in 70s and 80s, the guys that had it right, you hit a ball stationary, hit another ball,

stationary, the net a ball, you can do that but if you can do it on one leg and start doing it like

Vic was talking about, you can get even further in. But you know, again, no limitations.

Know that you can adjust the game a little bit and still keep playing.

You know, and I think what Dave brought up really good point is that usually there are other guys

at the other end with the same limitation. So you know, just know what you could play against his

limitations like, you know, so you know, if he's not a good move or he's trying to get a lot of drops

or tell you, but you'll find that guy probably stands three quarter court bus to match.

He's already he's already in no man's land. Exactly.

Our 10 minutes are up Justin. Let's go. Let's go long term. So we're going to say thank you Dave

Justin to our 10 minutes of tennis. We will continue on Instagram and YouTube for the longer

conversation. Gentlemen, thank you so much. Thank you. He's a Lada. Cheers.

All right. So now we're just running YouTube and Instagram. So I like that. I like that

conversation about the like what you said Dave about the hanging out in no man's land where you see

in the beginning as coaches, we say no, no, no, there's a reason it's called that. Get out of there.

The ball is going to bounce at your feet, but if you're only realizing you're getting two steps

anyway, yeah, that that guy in his 60s that I was trying not to lose to when I was in my 20s,

that's just hitting the ballies the whole match. Right. If you can't hit around him,

then that's what he's trying to force you to do. You have to go around that guy to make a move

then I hit the ball out. Right. So that old that more experienced player can take down a younger

player at the time, which I'm realizing I'm calling it a humility where it's basically the

where I'm finding the positive thing to say as opposed to Dave where he says the problem is the ego,

which is the opposite of humility. So that works to say, okay, now Dave, if I'm going to say here's

our longer conversation. If you can give me you can give me three things that you would suggest.

To say actionable points of view that say here's what you can change. Is it switching to a

unadjusted what what the limited what's the abbreviated sorry that's the word Justin for the

serve an abbreviated serve or maybe you do serve in volleyball even though it's not really

what you used to do. Do you have three things you can give us that say here are actually some things

you can change? Yeah, I think I think you know like I think me adjust around the same page with it,

you know when you start abbreviating and at the same time it's you incorporate better returns

to serve and things like that in a younger person's game you know 30 20 30 40 year old.

You have to learn to shorten your your stroke because the time there is just not there. You know

you you can scream like I had a conversation I mean when I was first coaching out there here in Atlanta,

I kept telling people you know you're coming to them you want to if you want to serve in volleyball

you're coming to the net and they're thinking well I'm going to get to the middle of the service block

and I'm like on what train what train that you get there on because I ain't never got there

and I'm six five so we that'll work and so it's funny because I came home that night

and I think Edberg was on on the TV like US Open late at night and I counted like 12 points in a

row he served you know like a long game and he you know he's balling at every point serving in

ball in and 9 out of 10 of his first ballies were within the service line and a yard behind

his first volley and so I counted when I called the guy up on the phone and I said okay turn on

this match it's on right now watch and you know he he's watching he's watching this goes this can't be

right I said it's right a hundred percent of the time you're you're not watching what you think you're

seeing his second volley that's a whole another game but if that first volley is not on point into a

deep corner your second volley ain't going to exist you're going to get passed in a heartbeat

Justin's over his finger they're going yep we've all seen that one and so you know I tell people

all the time you're coming in but you really if you watch the pros warm up their volleys they're

all standing on the service line because that's the most important volley the rest of them are

cheesecakes that's a joke when you get up in the middle service block and I tell people all the time

well you're serving volley and I go if I get past middle of the service block and have it one to point

I haven't done my job my volley's really staked and so I realized where in the court I am

I can't just I you can't just fly to the net you're going to get lob by everybody on the other side of

the net you know Justin going yep yep and so you know changing uh I think moving you know because

your mobility does become a little bit of a factor if you're going to go to the net which is still a

viable play for me and anybody you just gotta be realistic with your movement you know your movement

is not going to stay at 40 years old anymore it's over so learning how to have volley which is what

I've been doing for oh my god 45 years you know I can take a half volley and hit a drop half volley

off of it we're touched and you know people are like a six five guy doing that but sorry I've been ahead

of the curve a little bit but um you know that I think is one uh because you've been cut

down your return of serve stroke because of lack of time with the bigger players or you know the bigger

ball that you're hitting uh you should be adapted to be able to step into the court take serves

earlier um and just get them at their feet and you're already in the court so you might as well

just come on in and make it fun uh you're gonna get to every ball no but you learn how to read players

and that's the evolution of tennis as you read players and you read shot selection and what you

minimize on the other side because of your shot that becomes even more of a chess match and fun

part of the game to me um Justin you got anything to add there uh I'd say two things you become an

expert at zero and four shots and you also have a very good reminder which everyone seems to forget

is read the other players racket read the ball ball I mean anything that can speed up the perception

so that you can actually use whatever mobility you do have and react to what you do that um everyone

forgets to read the racket I mean I I'm constantly shouting like just watch my racket just

look all of a sudden their split sets faster they're coming forward they're seeing the the left

the right they're seeing everything that's like hey like I said you got that you see if you're watching

but really you're just watching the ball and by the time I guess the net you're now reacting so

let's let's watch the racket and more you watch the racket the better you'll become uh

right maybe my two biggest ones for anyone at the 40 and over 50 is keep remembering

to watch the racket and try to zero to four shots feeling what am I creating

you know we're playing bids but we're playing bids to four no playing b is eight you know so

and that makes a lot of sense knowing we're also playing a lot more doubles as we get older

yeah I mean you even come from that that Atlanta mindset typically which there's a lot of doubles here

anyway because they're more leagues than anywhere in the world but we come from that point of view of okay

now I'm I'm getting older I gotta get smarter I'm gonna hit my serve I have lost a match to that guy

who tapped in the serve and sprinted to the net when it was a city final match it was embarrassing

I couldn't figure out how to beat that guy so there are those strange scenarios where it somehow works

but as we get older as we realize that we've got to learn how to how to have a half-bally I like

that day take some practice time and spend some time in no man's land and call up Justin or Dave

and say hey I need to work on my my oh shit shots right I gotta work on that I had it balls at my

feet what am I gonna do get comfortable with those shots that you're typically avoiding because now

we don't have the footwork to necessarily get out of the way and get back in the way and and make

those adjustments and if you're gonna keep my third one is if you're gonna keep something to your

70s and your eddies don't lose your squat I mean it's just incredible when someone gets a good

squat stance and good like give me one more actually there's one more really important one this is

one it's a big one for everybody you're hit with the amount of people that continue to feel like

they've got to be jump in itch and your hips are limited as you get older they have to be

stance as the more narrow for you to be able to use your feet in your legs again and if you keep

if if you were near in your 20s in your here in your 30s you're about here in your 40s and then

50s well maybe you're in the same but but don't be out here in your 40s and it's just no way

you're gonna react or move or do it and that's probably why you slow it's not that you can't move

it's just your hips they lose their mobility so your stance becomes more narrow and that's one I

pick up up a lot of people I said look put your feet together jump in the end lane okay that's

where you that's your hips right there you know they're like oh yeah but I'm here I'm like how you can't

move there and that's another example of and I'll take that and and specify the advice stop watching

the guys on television and thinking you can do it you're not them right don't come in and hit

that volley where the racket moves all you you don't have that when we say don't swing it your

volleys we mean it don't say but Rudge or Federer does it or the what's the big wide like you said the

the joke of a split step returners are you're not them right talk to your coach find out who you

really are and actually realize the humility and saying here's where it maintained this lane this

is where you need to be I got one last question Dave you're an avid cyclist

that's theoretically bad for a tennis player with the hips going from the hips from Justin

to where okay I'm on this bicycle and I'm doing the same thing over and over and over again

and I'm hearing I'm hearing different things so I want to ask the question of how you believe the

cycling helps you besides just fitness and fitness is good it keeps you healthy keeps you fit

as long as you don't die so please don't die riding a bicycle on the road please

I'm asking you Dave please don't do that but but that but that repetitive movement on the bicycle

Justin talks about how we're sitting and how our angle is and how that helps us

as tennis players and sometimes it can be a detriment how do you how do you combine still continuing

tennis with the cycling when I'm getting some advice that maybe we shouldn't do that or maybe

everybody shouldn't do that yeah right um number one and I was going to add on just just had four

fingers over there I'm going to add a fifth one as you go through your 40s 50s 60s 70s because I

remember one year back when I was like 40 35 40 I went to a the national intersectionals out in

Arizona had all the sections represented 13 sections represented you know a team competition

and they started doing testing people versus you know not really versus each other but they started

doing testing to see you know when you got to be 40 what was your you know how was your stretching

you know could you touch your toes could you jump in things like that and I was off the chart

because I don't know why but I was cycling a lot my quad strength was phenomenal uh you know they

they they head where you're sitting on the floor and you reach out over your toes you know when you

try and you know everybody was reaching their toes and I was like I was like a risk past my toes

and people were like what in the world and I said I do a lot of stretching and I do a lot of

stamina work on my bike and they were like whoa and you know I had a friend of mine when I was in

college on my one year college basketball that I played we went and visited one of his friends

tree Rollins of the Atlanta Holtz who was having knee surgery down in Columbus where I where I grew up

and Dr. Houston walked in Houston clinic was the name of the clinic he was a world-renowned knee

surgeon still he I don't know if he still is but anyway uh tree had just had knee surgery that

afternoon before at like four in the afternoon and the next morning Dr. Houston walks in with an

exercise bike and tree was like Doc I need some pain meds la la la la la he can get your butt out of

bed and get on the bike you're trying to get back in the lineup get on the bike and I said so I got

a question for you what if you got on the bike before you came to see you he goes probably wouldn't be

here because the the quad and the bicycle builds the quad better than anything to support the knee

that's what we like and why so many people have knee surgeries and so you think about the pounding

that we get on a tennis court and it's unbelievable I mean starting stopping oh my god and so what I

decided at about the age of about twenty two or three was to stop doing all my running and start

cycling so that I take the pounding off but I build the muscle without the pounding I get my heart

strong life hopefully gets longer and yeah you know and that's what my nonprofit does now is trying

to create safer streets for everybody but uh yeah you know people need to drive a little better I

hate to say it but you know I'm never seen a bicycle that kills somebody so you know we have to

attack the root of the problem and that is the killing machine and the ego behind it and so you know

I don't know how we're gonna address all that there's a lot of stuff in our society we need to change

and fix what that's one of them one of many as roads get you know but you know stretching is a huge

part uh I've started the last two months ago I started a medicine ball workout where there's also

a lot of yoga kind of stretches with a lightweight medicine ball it's killing me because of the you know

once you're over sixty you start losing muscle mass whether you like it or not and if you ain't

doing something to fix it or to help it stay in position you know like you got it you're gonna lose it

so you know all you 50 year olds get ready the the ladders coming your way and you better not get on

it so stretching is a big part of it big part of it doesn't yeah 100 percent I mean that's pretty

impressive for a six foot guy to put his hand past his foot just down I got to reach my foot so

but I did I mean I was doing first a hundred miles a week in running and and I quit all of that

yeah for the second tennis for the second it's running running will destroy your tennis because

just tighten your hand needs and your hand needs panicking for anything so uh and you can't sprint and

you can't use it fast much five is and there's I mean there's just so many bliss list uh so running

long distance running and that I mean any kind of running he's right with jarring you can build your

legs by doing the bike um but you know I again saying thing it's help for him and what's work it

works for you I say go for it you know um I could see the benefit for a six foot five guy on a bike

it would actually help him with his sweat step it's yep so I can see that we're actually with

help but a guy who's maybe five eleven might be good to tight and to the ground lower and um I've

just seen I've seen bike I've seen both sides so um the bike stuff I've seen people on pelotons every

single day and they can't react around the court because again it's slow to reach versus fast which

and uh and and and it and it loons a little bit of their um deep sweat so they lose their hip range

because they used to just this far this far uh so so again it's wet all up what's better for you

and what's not better for you you know for some people though I don't do much static stretching I've

got a lot of dynamic stretching I find static one is boring and two I feel like I hurt things so

yeah you know you do what you know and you you know uh you know I'll see people go to yoga and go

oh man for the mean bucks and then next thing you know they're like oh I just tore something

okay because you've pulled something to do something it's not used to doing so it's um

well now to I'll toot my wife's horn a little bit and say that's I think why we invented pelotis

and especially as we age it's uh I call it the the exercise verb the workout version of yoga

whether it sounds like what Dave you're describing with your medicine ball it sounds like a bit

essentially as a pelotis workout which we're protecting the feet we're staying aligned we're staying

move it isn't just yoga where I'm trying to hold my antenna you know yoga was designed to connect

the human body with the vibrations of the universe and center and meditate that it's a different concept

where pelotis is going to take you and say hey you know what if you're doing a lot of cycling and you're

doing this one thing my wife is gonna say well how about we do some hip circles and how about we

extend those things and we work on those squats and we add that in as one of the things that you're

doing in the same way I just bought my little my little magnetic bracelet to lose a few pounds right

and they say it can't be the only part of your weight loss program like does anybody think the

what the wristband is gonna help you no it's a it's a talisman it's the thing that reminds you to

stop eating too much and go workout do your thing but it's it's one of many things that we need to do

and if we're playing tennis you get out there and you hit some balls and that's good for you just

and wants the fast twitch he's gonna say hey this you know man cannot live on cycling alone and Dave

I will say man sometimes die from cycling alone so be careful out there on the roads gentleman

I'm out of time I appreciate it we'll follow up maybe we'll do a what to change after 60 in a few

months but I appreciate your time guys thanks so much we'll talk soon well there you have it we

want to thank rejuvenate.com for use of the studio and be sure to hit that follow button for more

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