We know of the story outlined in the Bible of the struggle between good and evil, and God’s partnering with humans towards ordering creation. But the Bible has characters we often ignore in our modern secular society - spiritual beings, the divine council, and the unseen realm referenced in Ephesians 6 and Daniel 9. This class explores how opening our eyes to the spiritual realm can add significance to our own spiritual struggles. Brian will share personally about his own journey of understanding as well as health battle and how increased spiritual awareness provides comfort and meaning.

00:00 Introduction to the Deeper Dive Podcast

00:25 Meet Brian Craig: Evangelist and Worship Leader

00:47 Brian's Journey with Brain Cancer

01:02 Understanding the Spiritual Realm: An Overview

01:15 Brian Craig's Personal Introduction

02:08 Exploring the Ancient Near Eastern Worldview

02:50 The Cultural Lens of the Bible

07:02 Reconciling Science and Religion

16:52 The Divine Council and Spiritual Beings

25:46 Heavenly Beings and Earthly Struggles

27:57 Conclusion and Next Episode Preview

Click here to donate to the program

Click here for more Deeper Dive Episodes

OC Church of Christ

Welcome to the deeper dive podcast brought to you by the OC Church of Christ.

2

The Deeper Dive Podcast is about going

deeper into God's word, learning new

3

insights and taking a fresh look at

the verses that impact our daily lives.

4

Today we have the honor of

hearing from Brian Craig.

5

Bryan is an evangelist, biblical

teacher, songwriter and worship leader.

6

Brian has a master's degree in

ministry from Pepperdine University.

7

Brian and his wife Dessa serve in the

full-time ministry with the South Bay

8

ministry of the LA Church of Christ.

9

They also have three children.

10

At the end of 2022, Brian was diagnosed

with an aggressive form of brain cancer

11

and has been sharing that journey

of faith with his local ministry,

12

online community, and on his blog.

13

You can find the link in the show notes.

14

This episode is the first

of a two part series titled

15

"Understanding The Spiritual Realm."

16

So get your scuba gear and

let's dive deep into God's word.

17

Here's Brian Craig.

18

Brian: Hi, my name is Brian

Craig, or you might know me as J.

19

Brian Craig.

20

That's how my music is released,

because I can't remember why

21

I had to do that years ago.

22

I think there was already a BrianCraig.

23

com or something.

24

But anyway, I have been asked

to teach this class called

25

Understanding the Spiritual Realm,

and I'm excited about sharing it.

26

I'm really just sharing

the name of the class.

27

It's kind of a misnomer.

28

Understanding the Spiritual Realm

as if I, have any idea or anybody

29

could really understand the spiritual

realm, but it's more in search of

30

understanding the spiritual realm.

31

And I just want to share about some

things I've been learning and that

32

have I feel like blessed me and blessed

my walk with God from just rethinking

33

certain things, the way I always thought

about certain things things that God

34

has been teaching me even through my own

health journey I've been going through.

35

I might share about that

a little bit, but Yeah.

36

So understanding the spiritual realm.

37

So we're gonna be talking about really

an ancient near Eastern worldview.

38

The worldview of the biblical authors

and And just how that relates to

39

what we know about God and Jesus

and his presence in our lives.

40

And some of this is, it gets a

little weird or a little wacky

41

sometimes so stay with me.

42

I weird or wacky is probably

the wrong language to use.

43

More like it's, it might be

different than what we're used to.

44

But it is the Bible.

45

The Bible has some

interesting parts to it.

46

And I think I've been learning that

those are some of the best parts, the

47

parts you gotta wrestle with, or the

parts you don't understand sometimes

48

are where some of the best gems are.

49

And every, all of us, Come at

things from a cultural framework.

50

And so we have a certain culture,

a cultural lens that we look at the

51

Bible through in, in this modern and

now postmodern society, we're part of

52

postmodernism actually is kind of a better

framework for seeing some of these things.

53

Modernism, you want to know what

all the rules are and how it all

54

works and we can figure it all out.

55

That's kind of, That's the worldview that

has informed our theology for a long time.

56

But No, God is spirit and he

is unknowable by definition.

57

Right?

58

So, there's going to have

to be some mystery involved.

59

There's going to have to be some

being okay with uncertainty or

60

being okay with what we can't know.

61

And so that's kind of what my journey

has been is being willing to be okay

62

with uncertainty or being willing

to be okay with what I don't know.

63

I have myself have always

been, especially young age.

64

I started reading at a pretty

young age and I read so many books

65

when I was a kid that I, my, my

eyes, I really messed up my eyes.

66

Cause I was always looking close.

67

So I have a very strong prescription

for my glasses or my contacts.

68

I can't.

69

Early in our marriage, my wife

found me huddled over our cat.

70

She asked me Hey, can

you bring me my purse?

71

And she found me.

72

Up close, like looking over the

cat, because I thought the cat

73

was the purse because it was

about the same size and shape.

74

So I'm really blind without my my glasses.

75

But anyway we're going to be talking

about oh, I, I was the reason

76

I was saying that and sometimes

I'm recovering from brain cancer.

77

So I, sometimes I get off track.

78

So if that happens I'm going to be

talking about Just stay with me.

79

I'll hopefully find my way back.

80

But I was sharing that

because I was such a reader.

81

I was such an avid reader as a kid that I,

my eyesight went bad, but I love to read.

82

And one of the things I love

to read was the fantasy genre.

83

And I was reading this book of series,

a series of books called The everybody's

84

familiar with the Chronicles of Narnia.

85

I loved all of those, but also the

Zanth novels and and others by this

86

author called Piers Anthony, that was

a fantasy and science fiction writer.

87

And I read every, everything he wrote back

when I was in middle school, or maybe it

88

was even elementary school, maybe fifth

grade or something, but I loved That

89

fantasy genre and that is, 1 of the, if

you think of all the blockbusters they

90

typically are in that fantasy genre, or

you think of the the Star Trek series.

91

The popularity of that, the stranger

things series popularity that Lord of

92

the Rings trilogy and just the whole.

93

World building of the Lord of the

Rings Tolkien you know, it's and CS

94

Lewis and Narnia, of course these

this genre, why is it so popular?

95

I think it's because there's something

in us that we know there's more than just

96

what we can see and experience in a modern

way of just this sort of And even what we

97

can know from science about reality, it

blows your mind, the fundamental aspects

98

of reality that, that, the quantum physics

is introducing us to and things like that.

99

It's crazy.

100

Like we live in a universe that is really

dramatically blows your it's mind boggling

101

that just the scope of it, the size of it.

102

And I think people are drawn to these

kind of fantasy Series or books or stories

103

because as the book of Ecclesiastes

put it, puts it, God has put eternity

104

into our hearts Ecclesiastes 3.

105

11 there's something about the human

condition that longs for something

106

beyond human experience something divine

you know, there, there's something

107

in us that it's the way what we were

made as human beings, for Paul, this

108

impulse is so powerful that it has to

be willfully suppressed in order, in

109

Romans 1, 18 through 23 talks about how

humans have suppressed, tried to suppress

110

this impulse of worshiping the divine

because it's it's just so powerful.

111

It's so who we are.

112

So my background with some of the

stuff I'm going to be talking about

113

and talking about the spiritual realm

and understanding the spiritual realm

114

and kind of what I've been learning

lately how I've come at this is it's

115

been a real kind of transitional way

of thinking for me, a different way of

116

thinking and really from even from an

academic standpoint a long time, all the

117

way back to middle school or so, I would

apologetics was something I was really

118

into and just trying to understand, what

does it mean to, to look at the observable

119

universe, but also believe in God.

120

And I was trying to reconcile science

and religion, even in middle school or

121

something, I remember reading this book

called know why you believe and trying

122

to figure out I love God, but I also love

science and how can I reconcile the two?

123

And, because our society or this time

that we're in, especially the last a

124

hundred years or so especially since

Darwin onward, wants to bring science

125

and conflict and science and religion or

theology and conflict with one another.

126

And and so I, I was really into that

and I read everything there was on

127

apologetics and intelligent design.

128

I read all of the, there's especially

in the nineties intelligent design was

129

kind of a big thing these different

Michael Behe and these other authors.

130

I read everything by all of

them and was really into that.

131

Kind of a framework of trying to have

evidence for God in different ways or

132

kind of reconciling science in the Bible.

133

But going to back to school, going back

to college, I decided to pursue a a

134

secondary degree in, in, in in religion

135

Those four years.

136

And really that caused me to rethink

and even prior to that I was rethinking

137

this way that I'd been reading the

Bible, like trying to make Genesis fit

138

A scientific framework, for example,

like I would try to go, okay maybe this

139

is Genesis is you're looking at it from

the eyes of an observer on planet earth.

140

And so you're seeing, the beginning

God created, there's light and dark.

141

And that's because on planet earth

is covered by this heavy covering

142

of of Of atmosphere, and the

early earth, it was an atmosphere.

143

So you wouldn't have

been able to see the sky.

144

You wouldn't be able to see the stars.

145

You could just see light.

146

And so from the standpoint of an

observer on earth, you can see, all

147

you can see is light and darkness.

148

And then, when it says God made the stars

and okay, then that's where the, have

149

the early earth, The atmosphere part, is

able to be more clear and you can see the

150

stars, you know, and that kind of thing

trying to make Genesis fit the scientific

151

framework when what I was doing was not

taking the Bible on its own terms, like

152

reading the Bible as it was designed to

be read by the authors of the text, or

153

even trying to respect the Bible from

a cultural standpoint, the culture that

154

the biblical authors are coming from is

a very different culture than my own.

155

It's not a scientific culture.

156

And that's not the reason it was written.

157

And so that's been a journey, the, since.

158

2016, 2014, whatever on maybe even

before, but just of really learning

159

to learn to look at the Bible

through different, a different lens.

160

And there's different lenses.

161

You can read the Bible from a

historical critical lens is a real

162

popular one where they're trying to go.

163

What really happened?

164

What was the.

165

Let's try to kind of that scientific

worldview, look at the Bible, whereas

166

what the Bible is it's a story.

167

And I love the way the

Bible project puts it.

168

And I'll talk about the Bible

project for a minute here, but their

169

slogan is we believe the Bible is a

unified story that leads to Jesus.

170

And so that's more of a narrative

perspective more of a narrative

171

approach lens, hermeneutical lens

is looking at this is a story.

172

And it's using, it's has incredible

literary art Even just if you like

173

the Bible project videos, they do a

great job of explaining some of the

174

literary art that is in the texts,

all the different parts of the Bible.

175

And so I've been learning to

read the Bible from its own,

176

respect it for what it is.

177

And maybe if it's, if the Bible is

attesting to a transcendent God.

178

That made all of this and even

is in a dimension beyond here or

179

that heaven and earth are one.

180

But we can't see, we can only

see this part, but there's more.

181

I mean, that's what the Bible is all

about from beginning to end, right?

182

Is this other realm, the spiritual

realm contrast of heaven and earth.

183

But heaven and earth eventually being one

in heaven and earth were one initially

184

in the garden of Eden and heaven and

earth are one at the end in the book

185

of Revelation as the bride meets the

groom and heaven and earth are united.

186

And anyway not to get too into that,

but I just have been learning more

187

of and gaining so much more from the

Bible, especially like the book of

188

Genesis from reading it for what it's

trying to tell me, which is It's trying

189

to explore the deepest questions.

190

Who are humans?

191

Why were humans made?

192

What are we here for?

193

What is our relationship

to God meant to be?

194

And where did it go off track?

195

And It's very sophisticated this, the,

these ancient Hebrew texts, but we kind

196

of get off track when we try to read them

for, from a, for scientific purposes.

197

So anyway I mentioned all

that to say that I've been.

198

Really looking at things differently

and that kind of opens things up because

199

I do believe in a transcendent God.

200

I do believe in a God who became a

human being, whatever that means.

201

How is that possible for

God to take on flesh?

202

But I believe in that.

203

That's why I'm doing what I'm doing.

204

That's what, that's my hope.

205

As I look into the future is that

there is a resurrection to come.

206

There is a renewal and

restoration of all things to come.

207

It's really the hope that I have

is in this transcending God.

208

But it is a God, it's a different,

it requires a different framework.

209

Or I would say more robust framework.

210

I think the scientific worldview fits

super well into this, but you, but

211

it's only a little part of it, the what

science can show us and even science

212

itself attests to that, science itself

if you've heard about this thing called

213

dark matter or dark energy, basically

it's just, are what we can see and know

214

is only about 8 percent or something like

that, or maybe it's 4%, I think, of the,

215

what the mass that is in our universe.

216

So we don't know what is this dark energy?

217

What is this dark matter?

218

We don't understand 94 percent

of matter itself, you know?

219

So we know so little and so we should

respect if God is claiming to have

220

spoken to us through the prophets and

More profoundly and more completely

221

in these last days through his own

son, we should respect his worldview

222

and maybe there is some truth to it.

223

Anyway, my main source in some of what

I'm sharing about is the Bible project.

224

And they have as particular, if

you want to know more about how

225

the spiritual beings, as we're

talking about the spiritual realm,

226

I would recommend the Bible.

227

The God podcast series.

228

They started out just,

229

Just trying to talk about the

Elohim and this word that's.

230

In this, in our text in the n IV version,

if you read NIV or whatever English

231

version, a lot of times when it just says

God or Lord, there is could be the word

232

Elohim there, and Elohim can be Yahweh.

233

The God of Israel the as

the supreme Elohim, or.

234

Elohim could also be like small G God.

235

So sometimes it's translated

with a small G God.

236

Sometimes they don't know exactly.

237

And so if you read multiple translations,

you can kind of see The translator sort

238

of wrestling with this, but the point

is that the ancient world viewed their

239

viewed a populated heavenly realm and

these heavenly beings are referred to.

240

as Elohim.

241

And if you want to know more about that

as well, I, there's an author I would

242

recommend to you called Michael Heiser.

243

And he's written a book called The

Unseen Realm and others that are

244

the subheading is Recovering the

Supernatural Worldview of the Bible.

245

And just being willing to again, read

the Bible for what it's saying to us,

246

which is it's automatically assumes

the Bible authors assume this populated

247

heavenly realm and spiritual beings

that Not only are there, but they're

248

not indifferent they're involved.

249

God has a divine counsel that he

works with to rule the universe.

250

And that counsel that, and those spiritual

beings are involved in the ongoings

251

of, God's people and there are other

spiritual beings that are involved in

252

these world powers and these things

that are happening on a political level.

253

That's the way that, the Bible authors

viewed it And I believe it's true.

254

It gives more meaning.

255

It gives more, it gives us more hope.

256

If we believe that God is ruling and

reigning and he knows what he's doing and

257

we're on a trajectory towards something,

it gives meaning to sometimes the

258

chaotic things that happen in our world.

259

So, just, let me just give you a

few examples of this language that

260

is used about the divine counsel.

261

And these spiritual beings that are the

biblical author's view in the realm above.

262

Here's some scriptures from the Psalms.

263

Psalm 82, 1 and verse 6.

264

It says, God stands in

the divine assembly.

265

He administers judgment

in the midst of the gods.

266

So that midst of the God, that

word where it's translated gods

267

with a small G, that's the Elohim.

268

And Elohim is a word,

a Hebrew word, which.

269

It can be translated gods, it can

be translated angels or holy ones,

270

or, but it's these spiritual beings.

271

So, the biblical authors envisioned

Yahweh Elohim, the supreme God,

272

the God of gods, the king over all

gods, Yahweh is the supreme above

273

all spiritual beings, but there is

this spiritual this divine counsel.

274

And they also believe that these

I'll talk about that in a minute.

275

There's a connection between the

Elohim and angels or connection

276

between angels or messengers.

277

From heavenly messengers, but there's a

connection between them and the stars.

278

And the host of heaven, and And

that has all kinds of implications

279

for the birth story, right?

280

Where the sky is full

of the host of heaven.

281

That's The language, the

Bible uses for the stars.

282

So there's some connection between

stars and spiritual beings.

283

And I'll talk more about that in a minute.

284

Let me just read a couple others here.

285

Psalm 89, five through seven says, so the

heavens will praise your wonderful deeds.

286

Oh, Yahweh.

287

Even your faithfulness in the

assembly of the holy ones for who

288

in the sky is equal to Yahweh Who is

like Yahweh among the sons of God?

289

God feared greatly in the council of

the holy ones and awesome above all

290

surrounding him So again, there's

this language, the sons of God, and,

291

we recall the story and not to go too

into it, but Genesis six, where the

292

fall of these holy ones, that the son

of God saw that the daughters of men

293

were They saw that they looked good.

294

And so they took them.

295

So it's the same language as the

garden of Eden, where they looked and

296

took, that look and took language.

297

I looked and saw the fruit was good

and took and gave it to her husband.

298

It's the same language where the

sons of God saw that the daughters

299

of men were beautiful or tove.

300

They looked good.

301

They he went and they took

them as as their wives.

302

And so, That this, there's this kind of

story of the, that keeps getting repeated

303

and the spiritual beings are part of

that story and the sons of God or the

304

these yeah these divine, these spiritual

beings that are in the heavenly hosts.

305

Here's a couple more Psalm 95 verse

three says, give thanks to the God of

306

gods for his loyal love endures forever.

307

So the God where it's translated, God

of gods, it's king over all gods is how

308

it's it says in the next verse, verse

three that the king over all Elohim.

309

So God is this transcendent being that is.

310

He is a spiritual being himself,

but he's in a whole other category.

311

And so in ancient Israel, each

nation had sort of their God

312

that was their national God.

313

And so Yahweh initially is, he's the

God of Israel, but he's more than that.

314

He's more than just a national God.

315

He, in fact, is God.

316

The God of all gods.

317

He's the king of all kings.

318

He's over all gods, as it says

in Psalm 95, Psalm 136, verse 2,

319

give thanks to the God of gods for

his loyal love endures forever.

320

And then Psalm 148, praise Yah,

praise Yahweh from the heavens, praise

321

Him in the heights, praise Him all

His angels as messengers, spiritual

322

messengers, praise Him all His hosts.

323

That's the spiritual.

324

The heavenly beings praise him sun

and moon praise him all stars of light

325

again this connection between stars and

the hosts of heaven praise him highest

326

heavens and waters above the heavens.

327

Let them praise the name of Yahweh because

he commanded and they were created.

328

The days of creation, the stars are

created early and to fill the sky, so

329

God separates, God is creating order

and he's separating light from darkness.

330

He said, separating water from

land and then he's filling.

331

So he's filling these different

realms that he separates because

332

he's bringing order from chaos

and then he fills these realms.

333

And so the skies are

filled, populated with.

334

The stars, the heavenly

hosts, the spiritual beings.

335

And so the ancients believed that's

not just what we know to be gaseous

336

balls of hydrogen turn hydrogen.

337

That is, is.

338

Is being converted into helium and

that's what's creating the star,

339

but there's a spiritual realm.

340

There's a spiritual reality to these,

those stars represent something else.

341

And so I don't think they, they just

thought when they looked up, Oh,

342

that's a God up there, or that's

a, a small G God, I think it's.

343

It's that those stars, when we look

at those, it's pointing to a reality

344

and that is the spiritual reality

of this, these these Elohim, these

345

sons of God, these these stars

of light these spiritual beings.

346

And, this is in a lot of the scripture

Job 38, verse seven as Job is

347

wrestling with the deepest thoughts.

348

questions of life how do you deal with

suffering in the world God is revealing

349

to him a little bit of his creation and

he's talking about, basically he's saying,

350

can you make a better universe Job and

do you really understand what's going on?

351

Were you there in Job 38, 7, when the

morning stars were singing together

352

and all of the suns shouted for joy.

353

This is as the Earth's

foundation is being laid.

354

And I wrote a song years ago.

355

From this passage called Rejoice,

and it's from this passage in Others.

356

It says, I will lift my voice and

join the song creation is singing.

357

And the the first verse says the

morning stars and angels singing

358

and joyful music as the world began.

359

So it's this it's not only here

in Joe, but on other places, but

360

that God's creation is part of

the, This heavenly story, right?

361

And so the, it says that the sons of God,

the heavenly host was shouting for joy

362

as the earth's foundation was being laid.

363

So the Bible is teaching us that

heavenly beings are involved with

364

what's happening down on earth.

365

And so they are, they don't

just stand somewhere else.

366

Or they're not just, um, just

to have their own thing going.

367

They are concerned with

what's going on down here.

368

And that just again, it made me

think really differently and the

369

for my last album that I released

a music called the heavens declare.

370

That's really what I was thinking about.

371

And when I made the album cover I tried

to paint the stars as I don't know.

372

I was thinking about them as being

beings, these spiritual beings and that

373

are, um, are worshiping God, you know?

374

And again, I don't think that I

don't think that on a physical

375

way that, I love science.

376

I know how stars are made.

377

I think in fact it's profound

that we are from the stars.

378

It's you don't get stars or you don't

get the kind of molecules or the kind

379

of elements that we are made of carbon

and and others until you get stars.

380

And then those stars collapse

and in their collapse, they form

381

these heavily heavy elements.

382

And then there's a supernova.

383

And then those elements are spewed out

into the, this is what science teaches us.

384

So like we are made of stardust

literally from a scientific viewpoint.

385

So stars stars really meant

something special to the ancients.

386

And I want to respect that and reclaim

that and think about there's just

387

a much bigger realm than I know of.

388

And so that means that.

389

Heavenly beings what the Bible

teaches is that heavenly beings are

390

involved in our earthly struggles.

391

And so.

392

In Job this book that I was referencing

the way that it talks about in the

393

beginning is that there's this court,

this divine council, and it says, Job 1

394

verse 6, the sons of God or Elohim, the

heavenly, this is the heavenly court.

395

These beings come to present

themselves before Yahweh.

396

And the Satan or the adversary the

opposer also came into their midst.

397

So there's these parallel storylines

going on, Job is down on the earth

398

and something's going on with him,

but there's something going on in the

399

heavens and they're related, they're

interested in what's going on the earth.

400

And then just one more thing

I'll share here and then I'll

401

save the rest for part two.

402

But, the story of Daniel is the

story of of a person who's devout,

403

who is having profound things happen

to him, but there's heavenly beings

404

that know about it and are involved.

405

And so I'll share about that in

segment two, but for me personally,

406

this gives me so much comfort and

hope in the spiritual battle I'm

407

in right now fighting brain cancer.

408

And and just the different things that

we go through, the things our church is

409

going through things in my family has

gone through just to believe that I'm

410

part of a bigger spiritual struggle.

411

It gives me encouragement.

412

It gives me hope.

413

It brings meaning to my struggle.

414

And even as I am, I'm facing this, I have

this terminal illness and I don't know.

415

Really if I have days or decades

left in this realm thinking about

416

heaven, knowing and being involved

and being the God I pray to is the God

417

that's over all the spiritual realm.

418

It brings meaning to to that.

419

And so in the next session, I'll talk a

little bit more about Daniel and what we

420

can learn from him and how it can help

inform the way that we pray and the way

421

that we just where we put our trust.

422

Marcel: Thank you, Brian.

423

And thank you for listening to the Deeper

Dive Podcast by the OC Church of Christ.

424

As we mentioned earlier, you can find the

link for Brian's blog in the show notes.

425

Again, this episode is part

one of a two part series.

426

We will conclude this

series in our next episode.

427

If you want to get connected to us

or want to donate to the program, go

428

to our website OCchurchof christ.com

or through social media @TheOCchurch.

429

Join us next time for part two of

"Understanding The Spiritual Realm."