The discourse presented within this episode revolves around the profound implications of the assassination of Charlie Kirk, which has sparked considerable debate regarding his legacy and the notion of martyrdom within the Christian context. We assert that Kirk's life and untimely demise serve as a catalyst for reflection on how believers ought to engage with contemporary cultural issues. Throughout our dialogue, we explore whether Kirk should be regarded as a Christian martyr, dissecting the multifaceted responses to his death and the theological ramifications therein. Furthermore, we delve into the responses from the church community and how they should appropriately address such significant events in light of the gospel message. Our conversation aims to illuminate the necessity for Christians to engage thoughtfully and courageously in the public sphere, embodying the principles of love and truth in their interactions. Join us as we navigate these critical discussions, seeking to understand the intersection of faith, culture, and the call to witness in today's world.

The recent theological discourse centers on the tragic assassination of Charlie Kirk, a prominent figure within the Christian community, who has sparked considerable debate regarding his legacy and influence on contemporary faith and politics. The panel, composed of various esteemed podcasters, convenes to dissect the implications of Kirk's life and untimely death, raising critical questions about the nature of martyrdom within the Christian context. Was Kirk a martyr in the truest sense, having died for his faith, or is his legacy more intricately tied to his political activism? The discussion navigates through definitions of martyrdom, contrasting historical and modern examples, while emphasizing the necessity for Christians to articulate their beliefs with love and charity, even amidst disagreement. Furthermore, the panel reflects on the reactions of churches and community leaders in the wake of Kirk's death, pondering the responsibilities of spiritual leaders to address significant cultural events in their sermons and teachings. Ultimately, the discourse reveals a collective recognition of Kirk's impact on promoting a biblical worldview in public discourse, while also serving as a poignant reminder of the challenges faced by Christians in today's increasingly polarized society.

Takeaways:

• In this episode, we explore the significance of discussing theological differences within the Christian podcast community, promoting love and understanding amidst disagreement.
• The assassination of Charlie Kirk raises profound questions regarding his status as a Christian martyr, highlighting the complexities of faith and political activism.
• We examine the responses of various Christian leaders to Charlie Kirk's death, emphasizing the need for churches to address contemporary issues with compassion and biblical integrity.
• This episode underscores the importance of engaging in difficult conversations about faith, morality, and societal issues, urging believers to be bold and prepared in their witness.
• Listeners are challenged to consider how Charlie Kirk's example can inspire them to engage in meaningful dialogue about faith in secular contexts, fostering a culture of open discussion.
• We conclude that effective evangelism requires a blend of knowledge, respect, and the ability to navigate complex cultural conversations while remaining anchored in biblical truth.

Welcome to Theology.

Throwdown.

We, the Christian podcast community of podcasters, gather to discuss our theological differences with love and charity.

This is a ministry of striving for eternity.

Well, welcome to another edition of Theology Throwdown.

This is where the different podcasters from the Christian podcast community, we get together, take a topic once a month, hash it up, see where we agree, disagree ultimately, so we could display how we could disagree with love and charity.

Tonight's topic is going to be about Charlie Kirk, which I know no one has heard any podcast whatsoever on this subject.

Yeah, there's been a lot of discussion and maybe there's things that we, we're going to hash through that you've already heard, maybe not.

But we will discuss things like whether he is, should be considered a Christian martyr or not.

Whether, you know, like how, how should churches respond to the fact that he, you know, his death deal with the memorial and the reaction.

And, and I think that it's, I think might be more helpful now that we're, well, you know, beyond a month from the memorial, we get to see there was lots of hope, I think, early on with it.

So.

But how should we be viewing it as believers?

There's been lots of reaction, both good and bad, and we're going to discuss that tonight or today to whenever you're listening on this episode.

But so that you will get to hear the voices.

My name is Andrew Rapaport.

I am the host of Andrew Rapaport's Rap Report and Apologetics Live.

Those are the two podcasts that I do, other than this one that I host.

And I want you to get to hear everyone else's voices so you, when they speak, you know who they are.

So we will start with Eve Franklin, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself and your podcast.

Hi, yes, I'm Eve Franklin and I'm the co host of the podcast Are you just watching in which we discuss, well, movies, entertainment from a Christian worldview.

And we try to keep it positive, try not to review stuff we don't like.

It happens occasionally.

But we are hoping to release our episode on the new movie Tron Aries here in the next few days.

So that is coming up.

Hope you can join us for that.

Mr. Spencer, you are next.

Thank you again for having me, Andrew.

And yeah, my name is Spencer Tosi.

I'm the host of the Religionless Christianity podcast.

We sort of discuss everything.

I try to keep my episodes fairly recent so we just look at news from around the country, around the world.

If it has anything to do with the Christian Faith.

We try to discuss it, whether it's, you know, talking about why it looks like the PCA took a payoff to go soft on Jesus calling.

We talk about the faith of Cardi B.

And Kendrick Lamar, you know, all sorts of things.

Church history, other faiths, whatever it happens to be.

We try to wrestle with it every week and glad to be here.

Do you discuss the faith of Phil Sessa?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, hey, Phil, you're here.

Didn't notice that.

Phil, why don't you introduce yourself in your podcast?

That was a short joke.

You couldn't see me, right?

That's okay.

Andrew and I have a long history of coming at each other.

I wasn't making a short joke at all.

Not this time.

Coming soon.

So, Phil Sessa, host of the podcast Stop and Think about it, where we try to look at everything that's happening through a biblical lens, whether we're just discussing a theological topic or something happened in society, in the media and politics, everything through a biblical lens and get people to actually stop and think about it and not just be a cultural parrot.

Well, while you're stopping and thinking about it, maybe Melissa, maybe you can do some equipping.

Sure, gladly.

My name is Melissa Lex.

I do go by the nickname Melba Toast.

If you're a friend or family or an acquaintance, feel free to call me that.

But my podcast is called Thoroughly Equipped.

And basically I assess women's ministry or popular female leaders in women's women's ministry by looking at what they teach.

I look at some of their books, a lot of their conference speaking engagements, and basically just what they teach.

And then we compare it to scripture and try to exalt Christ and the gospel as much as we can in.

In kind of critiquing women's ministry and wanting to just glorify God through biblical womanhood in a way.

So with this topic tonight, what I want to start with is, you know, the first question we had is, is, was Charlie Kirk a Christian martyr?

So, Phil, I'm going to throw this out to you.

To start with is, you know, let's.

Let's try to define what is a Christian martyr.

Right?

That'd be good to do.

Before we say he, whether he was or not, what would you think is a good definition for a Christian martyr?

So a Christian martyr is someone who dies for their faith in Christ, for representing Christ, for preaching Christ, for having a biblical worldview.

They're not dying because they're a bad employee for the way that they dress necessarily just for their political views.

But it has to be rooted and grounded in the person and the work of Jesus Christ.

So we look throughout church history and just even with the, the disciples, they were considered martyrs because they were preaching Christ, teaching Christ and they died because they were identified with Christ.

And so that's why they were considered martyrs.

From the Greek word witness.

Yeah, pill.

That's a good point.

The pill don't always think about.

That's where we get the idea of witness was from martyr.

But you know, you brought up a really good point that I, I, it's not really to the topic, but I want to highlight it because there are many people professing Christians who say they're being persecuted when really they're just getting the just desserts of being a jerk.

Right.

I mean, yes, I know someone who came to church at prayer meeting and wanted prayer because he was persecuted at work.

He got fired.

And he was fired because six hours out of the eight hour day he was evangelizing.

And so it was like you didn't get fired because you were evangelizing, you got fired because that's all you were doing, you weren't doing your job.

Is, that's not persecution.

But the, you know, I, I heard something very interesting I guess with, with Phil, your next mayor unfortunately.

But, but he, he referred to, and I'm trying to remember who it was.

One of the terrorists in at 9 11.

He referred to him as a martyr.

And there was, there were people that said well he wasn't a martyr.

Which got me thinking, well then what, how are they defining a martyr?

Because I like you would, I would think your definition was good.

But see the, the, the terrorists that died in, you know, in those planes, I would say they were martyrs for their faith.

They weren't Christian martyrs.

Right.

But they did die for their belief.

Now in their case, they took their own lives.

So that maybe that may make a difference.

Right.

But I think, I think they were referring to some of the people that, you know, were, had been killed after, in the aftermath of it.

But I, for, I can't remember who he was referring to.

But that aside.

So with that definition, anyone disagree with that definition or have something they want to add to it?

Okay, then let's, as far as applying it to the man that flew into the Trade Centers as well.

Well, no, I'm just saying as far as your definition of a Christian martyr.

Gotcha.

So, so with that, you know, let's discuss whether Charlie Kirk could be considered a Christian martyr because there were a, there's, so let me Give the, the gamut of what I've heard.

I've heard.

Yes.

Now I've heard he's, he's, he's a Christian martyr because he was a Christian who was murdered.

Right.

I've heard that.

Well, he was a Christian martyr because he was a, an outspoken Christian and he was shot for his beliefs in Christianity.

I've heard that he's not a Christian martyr because he was political and he, he was shot for his political views.

And then I've heard he wasn't a Christian martyr because he's not a Christian.

That's the gamut of what I have heard.

Not sure where you guys are at, but I'll, I'll start with you, Spencer, just to ask, do you think that, as we had the definition from field, would you think that Charlie Kirk fits the definition of a Christian martyr?

What would be your.

Yeah, I, I certainly think he fits the definition of a Christian martyr.

You know, I guess people can say what they want about his faith, but it seemed authentic to me.

And, you know, I think the thing that would make him a Christian martyrs because he was in the political realm, but everything he was arguing was built on his biblical worldview in a Christian foundation.

He wasn't arguing for conservative politics because he thought it made his bank account better.

He, you know, he was arguing against abortion because it's murder, because you're created in the image of God.

You're created by God, you know, all these different things.

Every issue he was arguing was from a Christian foundation, and he wasn't outspoken Christian.

Even in the days that he got shot, he was arguing and defending the faith.

And, you know, I don't think you have to necessarily be, you know, preaching from a pulpit or, you know, getting burned at the stake for translating the, the scriptures to be considered a martyr.

So I think Charlie definitely fits that moniker.

Melissa, go ahead.

I just wanted to.

So you, you said you have these, these four things that you heard.

I, I mean, there could be more.

Yeah, that's just what I heard, of course.

Yeah.

And I, I think the one that we could X out automatically is the he was not a Christian.

I think we could just like, toss that one out.

I think he absolutely was a Christian.

He absolutely is a brother in Christ.

And so I can't see how anyone would come to the conclusion that he just wasn't a Christian.

Well, so, so I'll give you the pushback then, and let's have fun.

Right.

So.

So there's some who think that he was a closet Roman Catholic and so.

Because when he was shot, he did have a necklace of a St. Christopher.

I think it was St. Christopher necklace.

Okay.

So.

And.

And I guess his wife was seen with rosaries.

And so they were saying, like, oh, they're really.

They're really Catholics, but they were pretending to be evangelical because that's the, you know, that was going to get a larger base, which I kind of go.

Really?

Because there's a lot more Catholics than.

But, but, yeah.

I don't know if anybody's seen Catholics on social media.

They were really shy about beating their chest about their Catholic faith.

Yeah.

I mean, that one.

When you see.

Look, okay, Turning Point USA on that.

Andrew, on that point.

Who did he ask to mentor him?

Somebody from Answers in Genesis, like Trent Horn or somebody like Frank Turek, who is not my favorite apologist.

I mean, he does have some good things because he's.

Yeah.

I mean, he's an evidential guy and I'm a presuppositional guy.

But he didn't ask Trent Horn.

He did ask a Christian.

Is Trent Horn with answers in Genesis.

No, sorry.

I'm asking.

Let me.

I'm sorry.

Catholic answers.

Yeah, I was like.

I'm like, sorry, did I.

That's a.

That's a big.

Cancel that.

So, yeah, Catholic answers would make more sense.

I'm sorry.

So.

But yeah, I mean, I think I.

And, you know, as I.

To that point, someone asked me, how do I.

How do I answer the fact that he.

He had a St. Joseph, you know, necklace on?

And I said, the same reason that I wear high.

It was given to me in Maritza by my parents.

It has, it has sentimental value to me.

Okay.

People don't know I'm wearing it because it's underneath my shirt, but it's sentimental to me.

It.

It doesn't mean that I'm practicing Judaism.

Right.

So there, there could be something behind.

We have to know why before we assume, you know, so.

So.

But there is.

I mean, I'm just saying it to say there are people who are making that claim.

And so I, I just gave the categories I heard, so I want to.

See where you got.

You guys could fit in a fifth or sixth category if you want.

Melissa, what do, what do you think?

Do you think that the assassination of Charlie Kirk fits in the definition?

Yes, absolutely, I do.

I think he was a martyr.

And I think I would say we need to stand firm in claiming that because, like you, I've seen a lot of people saying that he's not a martyr and then placing these Certain stipulations on what would a martyr would be like the fact that he was rich means then he couldn't be a martyr or the fact that he wasn't like led to his death he couldn't be a martyr or that he wasn't told to renounce his faith, then he can't be a martyr.

Or at that point he wasn't exactly declaring the gospel at that specific time.

So I think we have to be, it's good that we have our definition and we need to stand clear on it and just be willing to say yeah, he was a martyr and we're not going to turn around and say that he wasn't.

He was a Christian martyr who's who was died.

Who died because yeah politically he, that's what he was on campus to try and bring political reform.

But like Spencer said, it was based off of his faith and he was very, very clear that so clear on it.

You just can't avoid that that he was a Christian first and foremost and then he died because he developed his worldview and his arguments based off of Scripture.

And last I'm going to ask even since you're last I'm going to add a little more to it and just say okay, was he a Christian martyr?

And then how would you respond to the people who would say but he was.

If, if you say yes, I should say if you think he was a Christian martyr, how would, how do you think we should respond to people who say yeah, but he was, he wasn't shot for his Christian beliefs.

He's shot for his political beliefs.

I do believe he was a Christian martyr and I believe my response has been and would be that he, he was actually shot because they could not shut him up.

They, he, they could not debate him.

They could not win the argument with him because whenever somebody would come up to the table and talk to him, he would almost always bring things back to Scripture.

And he, he had a very strong belief that everything would come back to a biblical worldview.

And it really surprised me how many times I watch videos he would start out with a very political argument but he would almost always even though he wouldn't base a lot of like he would, he would tell pro abortionist that he wasn't using a religious argument to support pro life.

But at the end he would always say but I believe that you know, humanity, human life is sacred because it was made in the image of God.

So he would always bring it back to a Christian worldview at some point in and people couldn't win the argument with him.

And so I think that's why they took him out as he was influencing so many people in, in establishing a Christian worldview in one of the most secular places in our country.

And they could, and they couldn't win the argument anymore.

And I think that because of that, certain that, you know, the person who shot him, at least alleged, who has been arrested for shooting him, was doing it because of the gay debate, the gay trans debate.

And so that they could not win that on from a Christian worldview.

You know, there's so many arguments against it from a biblical worldview.

And I.

There's no way they could win that argument with him.

So it may have seemed on the out outside like it was a political thing that got him assassinated, but his stance on those issues were inarguable because they were based on Scripture.

Yeah, Andrew, if I could just jump in and Eve, that was great.

And I couldn't agree with you more on everything you just said.

Especially they couldn't, they couldn't step up to the table of debate and defeat him in that way.

So, and since they can't argue, let's, let's just shut his mouth.

So he can't, he can't debate with anybody.

But I think an important thing to bring to light is, are the, the issues that he was debating, would we say that those are political issues or moral issues that our Bible speaks about?

Right.

And so.

Good point.

That is something that I think that a lot of believers are not considering.

Right.

So homosexuality, we say, well, that's a political issue.

Well, when I look in the Bible, it's a moral issue.

So that's not, it's not like on the political side of the table just because it's discussed in politics.

That is still in our realm as Christians because it's a moral issue and therefore it's a theological issue issue.

Homosexuality, again, it's a moral issue.

It's a theological issue which our Bible speaks about.

And these things are, are decided upon by the God that we serve.

And so it's easy to throw off and say, well, these are political things.

Well, actually they're moral and theological things.

And so the person who shot him shot him because of his moral and theological beliefs, not simply because while he had a different political stance.

And so I think we need to, as Christians think in terms of theological and moral.

And I think basically, Eve, you were saying that, and I think everybody basically here is saying that, but I just wanted to say it maybe more directly.

No, that's a Good point.

Hey, Phil, just so you know, Ken Ham just texted me.

You're banned from the ark encounter for confusing Catholic answers with answers in Genesis.

He just said he's gonna throw you off the ark.

He's, he's gonna.

Hey, Phil, come on, I want to show you the roof of the ark.

Oops, did you fall?

There's the highest point of the ark.

I want you to look down.

Let me give you a little pat on the back, a little push.

All right, so we have a plank now.

What's your name of it?

All right, so you know, now that you know, we're, we're over a month removed from it.

But at the time, there were, there were a lot of people that were saying that churches, like, if their pastor didn't mention Charlie Kirk on Sunday, they would, you know, they should go find another church.

So I want to talk about how the leadership and churches should, should, how we think they should have or did deal with them.

The, the death of Charlie Kirk and the, the backdrop to this really would be for consistency sake, and this is the way I view it, consistency sake.

Where did this come from that you must mention Charlie Kirk?

Well, it came from George Floyd where there were people saying, if your church didn't mention George Floyd, you need to leave that church.

We're hearing the same exact language with Charlie Kirk.

So I don't know from your churches if any of your churches did or did not mention Charlie Kirk.

I'm not going to ask that and don't know if you want anyone wants to share that or not, but how should.

So, Eve, I'll start with you.

I mean, how do you think the churches should, should have responded to, to his assassination?

Did they have to mention it?

Should we have leave the church if they didn' mention it?

What, what are your thoughts?

Well, I wouldn't leave a church over something like that.

And it's a good thing I wouldn't because my church didn't really deal with it much.

But I, I do believe that churches should be sensitive to those that were perhaps seeking because of what happened to Charlie Kirk.

I don't know if it was necessarily you needed to hold a vigil or a prayer meeting or anything, but be sensitive that there would be perhaps some unbelievers coming off the street who were impacted by what happened to Charlie Kirk and were wanting to walk into a church and needed to hear the gospel.

And I, I think that it, in, in that sense, it may have been, it maybe look a little bad for a church for a pastor to Speak openly against Charlie Kirk from the pulpit.

At most, they could just not say anything at all.

But, you know, there might.

They never know who might have walked in off the street, who came because of Charlie Kirk's testimony.

And we're.

We're needing to hear something, you know, hear something positive about Christians and Christ and might get turned off otherwise.

But, yeah, I guess that would be my perspective on it.

Let me ask this.

Is it.

Would anyone disagree with Eve?

Does anyone think that.

That the churches should have mentioned it?

Or is there anyone that says the churches must avoid it?

Either.

Either extreme.

I will say the churches should have mentioned it.

You know, so I think they should have mentioned it, and I think they should continue to mention it.

You know, I'm a. I'm very Reformed, hopefully reforming further each and every day.

And my church is very reformed.

And if there's one complaint, we're all sinners, right?

We all have ways to go.

But the Reformed church, even you, Andrew, even you, brother, sanctified as anyone.

But, you know, one of the errors that I think that I've seen, and it's not a bad error, it's a good side to error on.

But.

But it's this reluctance to drift even one iota away from the text.

Never leave the text.

There's safety in the text, which is where we should be.

But there's moments and opportunities like a Charlie Kirk assassination that we would recognize as a Christian martyr, that the Bible speaks on this.

The Bible speaks on Christian martyrdom.

It speaks on dying for your faith and being courageous in the face of difficulty.

And like Eve said, there might have been people coming to seek in that moment.

I mean, we know a lot of people have turned to faith or turned back to faith in light of what happened to Charlie Kirk and even in light of what Charlie Kirk was doing.

So to miss that opportunity, it's like when Roe vs. Wade was overturned and churches just stayed mum on it.

Like, are you kidding me?

Like, how do you miss that opportunity?

So I think they should have spoke on it.

It didn't have to be, you know, a Charlie Kirk sermon from the pulpit, but address something that everybody in your congregation is aware of and is dealing with in their own life to some degree, especially the younger generation.

I mean, Charlie Kirk was as impactful as anybody in American society for young Christians looking for answers.

So to miss that is just a terrible, terrible tragedy.

And then I'll say the second thing.

Even if your church did happen to mention Charlie, I saw a couple videos of churches playing Charlie Kirk videos.

During their Sunday sermons.

And I'll just say from the ones that I saw doing it, I'm glad they did it.

Because most of the time the gospel message Charlie presented in those videos was better than what they were going to hear from the pulpit at those churches.

You know, so if you're the kind of church that's going to play a Charlie Kirk montage on a Sunday morning, that's probably better for your congregation at the end of the day.

So I think they should have and if they didn't, they missed an opportunity, but the opportunity is not gone.

Capitalize on this because this is what Christianity is missing in our country.

You know, this seeker sensitive movement that makes it seem like all Jesus exists for is to supercharge your life, get you a promotion at work, make more friends, make more money.

And we have this opportunity to refocus that.

This is what the Christian life is about.

It's about the next life and sacrificing it all for Christ here.

Even if you should die as a 31 year old, immensely successful man, you lay it all down for Christ and that's what ultimately matters.

So they should capitalize on it.

Okay, so let me, so I'll, I don't know, maybe pushback would be too hard of a word, but I'll give you my view.

Well, let me give you, let me give you my struggle with it and see what you guys think and see who wants to may push back, but when you say must, that's where I struggle.

So as I said in light, I want to be consistent with things when, when we had George Floyd and people were demanding that churches mention George Floyd.

My argument against that was the fact that the church worship service is the worship of God, the not man, not what happens.

You know, it's not about.

This is why I don't like singing Happy Birthday to people in a, in a church service and things like that.

I, I, I don't even like taking individual prayer requests for, within the congregation during church services because I think it's for the worship of God.

Right?

We're together, everything should be focused on him.

And so I was more in line when after he first passed to say, hey, it shouldn't be mentioned.

Consistent with how we view how I viewed George Floyd.

However, Spencer, to the point that you made that I was hearing that argument, well, if he's a Christian martyr, shouldn't we as Christians mention him?

Because this is in a line with what we would see as giving God glory.

The, if it's done where the focus is on the fact that he was martyred for his faith, Isn't it then appropriate?

And so I. I kind of wavered to start to say, well, like, I was.

I wasn't saying any church was wrong for mentioning it, and I wasn't saying any.

That churches must mention it.

So I kind of.

I kind of wavered.

And part of it, you know, Spencer, on.

Like, a little bit of what you had said is the fact that he was a Christian martyr.

Therefore, it is something for Christians to say, hey, this is what we're.

This is the battle we're facing when we go out, and we got to give God glory in everything that we do.

So.

So I. I struggled with it a bit because maybe because I was outspoken against the mentioning of George Floyd.

And yet here, I think, as you just mentioned, there is a.

There is a bit of a difference.

So I'll just open up to see if anyone has.

Wants to push back on me on that.

I'm sure Phil does, because Phil always likes to push back on me.

I mean, perhaps it's preferential, but I mean, if we're.

If we're thinking in the sense of.

So some churches, I usually have our church focus on International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church.

And not that we should only think about our persecuted brothers and sisters once a year and then forget about them for the rest of the year.

We shouldn't do that.

But what would we do if.

One.

Of our pastors was shot?

I mean, we would stay silent about that.

Right.

If one of our pastors was murdered, we would certainly speak about them in.

I mean, in the congregation.

Right.

So good point.

Here is, if we.

Here is a brother in Christ who is.

Who is well known by many people in our congregations who is martyred, and here is a family who now is without a.

Well, Erica, without a husband and his children without a father.

And not that you have to speak, but I think it's appropriate when you're praying to perhaps include praying for his family, praying for his friends, praying for the ministry that he had and for those that are.

That were touched, that were close to him and the mission that he had.

So I think there's an appropriateness in the timing that is there for.

For churches, unlike George Floyd.

Yes.

There was a death of a person created in the image of God.

So in that sense, we shouldn't be happy.

But George Floyd was a criminal as well.

Charlie Kirk was not a criminal.

He was.

He was assassinated and martyred by a criminal.

Yeah.

So, I mean, that you can't even Put those two guys in the same camp.

No, George, George Floyd was killed by a criminal himself.

He was killed by a criminal?

Yes, he's the one.

He's the one that took the fentanyl.

So he killed himself.

So you know, but, but you know, and you bring up a good point because that's how my pastor dealt with it.

My pastor every week will pray for the country, pray for the leaders.

And so he included just in prayer for Charlie Kirk with that.

And I, I thought that was tastefully done.

He didn't make a sermon out of it.

He didn't mention it the rest of the service.

So let's, let's deal with the memorial.

That.

That was something.

Oh, go ahead.

Sorry, I didn't see a raised hand.

I couldn't see the raised hands.

I don't know where they're at.

Anyway, I was thinking along the lines, we don't.

We have a couple epistle.

You just go to the reactions and.

Okay, wait, I do.

I'll look at it later.

But I was just thinking, don't we.

One of the things about having.

Bringing up a Christian martyr during a Christian during a service, I'm.

I'm kind of thinking, well, we have a couple epistles that were written because of persecution of the church.

And the way the.

These epistles were written were to encourage the church during time of deep persecution.

So there's.

It's like a open door.

I think that like Spencer was mentioning that if you didn't bring to light the current situation, our cultural situation at this moment, and that we have literally almost crossed a line in American history pretty much because of his martyrdom, his assassination is an open door to really talk about God, God's work through the persecuted church and just, you know, all the other stuff that we have through those epistles that were written to encourage the Christian church.

And in the same way, I think a faithful, wise way, a pastor, those who did and those who again I won't say should, but I think it would say would be wise in bringing to light just the.

The truth of God's word.

Even from maybe the epistles that showed.

I'm trying to explain here, like, well, it's just an open door.

Yeah.

Like to use a passage of scripture talking about persecution and using this in it.

Because like, I know a lot of people after 911 use passive.

I mean there were a lot of people preaching about the Tower of Salam that fell, you know, after 9 11.

Right.

So like there are times where people may take events, cultural events and you.

Because everyone's, it's on everyone's mind to, to shift and start talking about that and, and address that.

Right.

Well, and, and I'm also thinking it connects, if, if you use this opportunity, it connects us to the historical, to our historical roots, to those who have died and were persecuted in the past.

I think it's just very wise to bring that into the situation.

It's a great.

That's really important to the discussion.

Yeah, that's a good point.

So let's, let's talk about the memorial Evil, and I'll start with you, but I'll just give my point.

So I was on One Little Candle, which is one of the other podcasts on the Christian podcast community with Rebecca.

I actually did that one in person because I had the privilege of preaching at her church.

And so we got, I got there early so that we could record together.

And it was interesting because there were two of the, of the people that she, she wasn't thrilled with.

Maybe if she was here, I would let her say what her thoughts were.

But it was, and I forget it was Steve, I forget his last name now, but it was, it was Steve something and Trump.

And because they were, those two were outside of the way the rest of the talk seemed to go, they were very political.

They were about fighting.

And so, you know, Trump saying he doesn't know that he wants to forgive.

He said Charlie would, you know, Charlie looking down, disagreeing with him, but he just doesn't know he could do it and do it what, you know, Erica did.

So I'm just going to say my point, and then I'm going to kick it over to Eve.

I actually was very surprised by the memorial service because those two, the reason they stood out, I think, to Rebecca was those two were the political ones where all the others were about Christ.

And I really expected it to be mostly political with a little bit of a few strong Christians speaking out.

But you, you, you even had Roman Catholics and, and like, you had Don Trump Jr. You had J.D.

vance, you know, guys like this, I mean, Marco Rubio, I'm not sure if he's a Christian or not, but guys who, I wouldn't have thought give biblical messages.

And I kind of said this on a couple of different podcasts about this just so folks understand, most of these people are not writing their own speeches.

Okay.

They have speechwriters.

And if you don't know how a speechwriter works, basically, when, if you're going to have to have a speechwriter.

So Phil is going to be my speechwriter no, let me think better of that.

So Spencer's going to be my speechwriter because Phil's going to throw some, some things in there purposely to, you know.

You don't want Bronx Bronxian in there, I guess.

How you doing.

Couple?

Forget about it.

So but if I, if I was going to have Phil write my A speech, the thing Phil's going to say is, well, what is it you want said?

Because that's the job of the speechwriter.

It's not to just write a speech.

It has to be the speech that the person wants delivered.

And so that told me that for especially a lot of the politicians, they must have said to the speechwriter it's got to be about Christ because that's what Charlie would have wanted.

So I'm reading into that because of the fact there was such strong evangelical gospel presentations, even from those who don't know the gospel, that that must have come through to the speech writers as well as their own hearts.

But, and so I was pleasantly surprised by that.

But there's been a lot of reaction.

We've been removed from it.

I, I had hopes that maybe this would be a great revival.

So I'm going to throw this over to you, even say, you know, I, I'm going to assume we all watch the memorial, but what were your reactions to memorial and, and a follow up I'm gonna have to for you guys is, do you think that there was any lasting results?

Did, do we see a, a new, another revival from this?

Like was thought.

Well, I did see the entire thing.

I did come in, I guess they had like a worship service that was going on while people filed into the stadium because there were people lined up I guess since like 4 in the morning.

And they had.

Every one of them had to go through security in order to get into the stadium.

So that took them a long time to get everybody in.

And so, you know, they had several praise bands and singing and I didn't care for all the music, but I thought it was appropriate for a memorial service.

And I skipped through a lot of it because it, a lot of that happened while I was still at church myself.

And so I just kind of tuned in, reversed back to see where it started and then, and then went live and just kind of had it on the background until the actual service started.

But I was rather impressed.

Pretty much even the people like Tulsi Gabbard, who is not a Christian, managed to find something somewhat religious to say when they were up there.

And I think that that rather reflected a lot on who Charlie was to each of them, that he presented Christ to them in such a way that they knew that that should be foremost.

And I mean, a memorial service is typically about the person who died.

And so when I hear people say, well, it was all about him, and I'm like, well, it was supposed to be all about him.

He was the one who died.

Actually, Actually, that was.

That was one of the surprises, though, Eve.

It was.

Wasn't really about him for much of it.

It was really about Christ.

Yeah, that's what surprised me.

I think it was a lot of the more diehard Christians that say, you know, that it was.

It was too much about him.

But I was like, I thought that even the, the fact that people come up and will talk about a person and it at, you know, at their death, and if the, even the ones who are not Christians themselves see him as representing Christ and that, that should tell you where he was publicly, that in.

Even privately, that everybody who came up and spoke about him spoke about his faith, even if they didn't understand it themselves.

And I think even, even President Trump even mentioned that in a way, because I don't know that he was necessary.

A lot of people say he was mocking the fact that Erica had forgiven the shooter, but I think he wasn't mocking.

I think he was maybe doing a little bit of self examination, realizing that he wasn't there, that that was not something he himself could do.

And which is, you know, hearing President Trump actually reflect on something that he lacks is pretty interesting in and of itself.

But all this to say the memorial did present Christ over and over again.

But the first speaker was Charlie Kirk's pastor, and he came out and he's.

He said that Erica had asked him to be the first one to speak so that, that it wouldn't.

That.

So that it would be sure that the Gospel was presented even before anyone else spoke.

And I really appreciated that.

I appreciated that all of the speakers mentioned Christ and Charlie's faith.

I, I thought it was.

I thought it was a really good memorial.

And I.

For those who only have watched snippets taken out of context, I think they've really missed out if they haven't actually sat through the whole thing.

Whether it has a lasting impact.

I think on some people it has.

And I think that.

I think there are a lot of.

I see some.

I, I follow some accounts on Instagram.

There's one particular.

I won't mention her name, but she is a.

She's gay, she's lesbian, and she has Spoken.

No, she doesn't.

She just practices that.

Well, she.

I don't know that she practices it.

I think that's how she identifies herself.

And she has rediscovered her faith after Charlie Kirk's assassination, and she has spoken at one of his memorials.

She was actually at the memorial.

She was one of the people in the center that has had been invited specifically as press, and she was.

She has said.

And she's defended him multiple times, even though.

And.

And she's conservative, but she's spoken out about her faith.

I thought it was very interesting that she.

She had something to say about a church that I guess they were doing a memorial in Tennessee and it was the.

It was a TPSU TP USA event, and they were going to have it at a church, but because they had invited people to speak who were gay, the church refused to.

To let them have it, so they had to move the venue.

And she was a little upset about that.

She.

She was like, didn't Jesus, you know, have.

Have meals with sinners and all that kind of stuff?

So.

But anyway, I think that there have been a lot of people who are influencers, and I think a lot of young people in colleges have been directly impacted by what happened to Charlie Kirk.

I think it's emboldened a lot of Christians who would normally be very quiet in their faith, and I think that can only be good because if people are a lot more.

Instead, I think it actually was the opposite.

I think they tried to shut him up.

And what they did was they emboldened a lot of Christians in our culture who didn't think that they had the voice to speak up.

And now instead of being afraid to speak up, they're actually more emboldened to speak up.

And that can only be a good thing in the long run, you know, that you're willing to share your faith and be public about it.

It may not be that Charlie Kirk's professions in his videos, which are going to last forever.

Well, at least as long as there's video, may not have a direct impact on people, but his death has emboldened Christians to be able to be more open about their faith instead of the opposite.

Okay, so you.

You brought something up that really.

This wasn't in the list of questions.

So I'm just going to throw it out and see who.

Who may want to respond to this then, because we're talking about, you know, you mentioned about Trump.

You know, I don't know if any of you feel this or not, but I think that Charlie Kirk's death has, has had an impact on Trump even more so I think than maybe even him being shot himself.

Even after being shot, he, he started talking more spiritual, but he was still saying that he was going to heaven even after, you know, like he was even saying, you know, with, with the peace deals he's doing, he deserves heaven.

And now if you, you're hearing him talk about him, maybe not sure that he like saying he, he's not sure he's going to make it to heaven.

And I don't know about you guys, I was like, wow, it's, it's like there's a, a change.

Like, you know, I kind of joke that maybe he stopped getting his spiritual advice from Paula and, and now is getting it from Pete.

You know, you're getting it from Peter Heste instead of Paula White because that now maybe he's getting the gospel.

But I mean, I don't know how much that might be due to Charlie's death.

The people who are being more outspoken, even those around him maybe.

But I mean, what do you guys think about that?

Is it, I mean, could that be a long lasting thing if like a president, United States gets saved?

That'd be neat.

That'd be good.

I mean not saying that we haven't had ones that were, but I don't know we had any that get saved while in the White House.

But what do you guys think?

I mean, as far as the memorial reactions to it, any long lasting effects of it?

I think if Trump got saved, we see the tallest skyscraper church in the, in the world.

Trump church.

Yeah.

I thought the memorial service was really amazing.

I mean it was very God glorifying.

I mean even if speech writers.

You.

Know, put together other, the speeches that other people were writing, it was all still so God glorified at the end of the day.

I mean those were the words that were spoken, you know, like when the scriptures, when the disciples were getting upset because there were people preaching who were not part of, you know, the group of the disciples, you know, the sectarian issue.

Jesus said, well, you know, like they're preaching the correct message, they're just not with us.

You know, we have a lot of people preaching the wrong message.

At least the right message went out.

You know, they were Armenians there.

I don't know how many of them were Calvinists, but I mean it was very good.

I, I really enjoyed it.

And not that it was.

I'm saying that for entertaining purposes, but, I mean, the gospel was clear.

It was direct, and it was packaged in the midst of his life.

I think it was.

Was.

It was very wisely done.

It's very tastefully done that his life, his legacy, was honored in the.

In light of the one he lived to honor the Lord Jesus, because it was the Lord Jesus that gave Charlie's life meaning.

It was the Lord Jesus that caused Charlie to.

To go out and put himself out there and.

And try to bring logic and morality and theology onto the forefront and to say, listen, if.

If you have a better theological idea than me, then bring it to the table.

And I mean, I've never seen such a huge memorial service like that.

I mean.

You know, to.

To quote that great theologian Donald Trump.

I mean, it was huge, but it was God glorifying, and I mean, you could watch that over again, and you're gonna get the gospel, I mean, all around.

Spencer, what do you.

What are your thoughts?

Well, I would just say to your second question there, that if Donald Trump got saved in the White House, I think that would have immense impact on the country.

Maybe we'll talk about that in the Christian nationalism piece if we get there.

But.

So I think that would be great.

I think anybody that was upset about Donald Trump being there, I mean, understand, at least as far as we can understand today, he's not saved, so why would we expect him to say something, you know, in light or in the line of someone that is saved?

So I think that would be great.

But to the memorial, I thought it was absolutely fantastic.

I loved it for many of the reasons that everybody here has been saying.

Maybe someone can check the stats.

But from what I heard, there was over a hundred million people watching that around the world, so it might have been the greatest gospel proclamation in the history of the world.

I thought I heard a billion watched it.

I think, I think they said that there was a hundred thousand streams that day, but it has been watched afterwards.

100 million streams that day.

100 million streams.

Yeah.

So I think, I think that.

I think.

And I could be wrong.

I.

You know, you might be right.

Phil probably could go look this up, but I think someone said that there were like a billion views.

Yeah.

So even better.

I mean, this is the greatest gospel proclamation in the history of the world in one day or in, you know, one short time period.

So to that, yeah, Peter thought he.

Did well with 3,000 getting saved at one time, like preaching to 3,000.

So, I mean, I Thought it was amazing.

And it wasn't the Catholic gospel.

And they weren't speaking about a generic God.

They were speaking about Jesus Christ.

It was a Christian gospel.

I think maybe my favorite speech of the entire event was Tucker Carlson, because he got up and he called America to repentance, which was incredible to hear.

And then Erica Kirk, you know, offering forgiveness for the killer was amazing.

But she even went, not further, but she also just how awesome it was.

She talked about proper male and female biblical roles.

I was like, what am I watching?

This is a great.

Like, most churches won't touch that topic.

So I thought it was amazing.

Like you said, there were Catholics, there are Armenians, but it wasn't an Armenian gospel.

It wasn't a Catholic message.

It was a message of Christ.

It was a gospel message.

It reached potentially billions of people around the world, and it was awesome.

Yeah, there was a couple of, you know, speeches.

I mean, I didn't even watch the Donald Trump speech because I knew when he came up after Erica Kirk, I was like, this is going to be an absolute dud compared to what she just did.

So I think it was great.

I loved almost all of it.

I mean, I think when I got done watching, I talked with Nikki about this, because there was a stretch from like, really Tucker Carlson to Erica Kirk where it was just like one of our national leaders, like Tulsi Gabbard, Marco Rubio, J.D.

vance.

And it was like the.

I mean, even RFK Jr. Got up there, like, these are the most powerful people in our country.

And one after another, they got up and proclaimed Jesus Christ.

And part of me was wondering if.

Because I think Marco Rubio's Catholic.

But I bet you there's been a piece of those men for a decade or more that have wanted to share their faith, but they felt they weren't able to, you know, the, the politics weren't right or they wouldn't be.

Be rewarded for it.

And in that moment, because of Charlie Kirk's courageousness or courageousness, and it's like they just let their hair down.

They just let their faith out, no restraint.

And I thought it was just amazing to hear just one after another in that line.

It was just.

It was something special.

I thought, well, that's what J.D.

said, right?

He said that it emboldened him.

He.

He.

He was.

He had a strong faith, even though it's Catholic.

But he said, you know, it really, his.

Charlie Kirk's behavior, you know, like him speaking out, emboldened him to say, you know what?

I should be speaking out of my faith.

So, I mean, anyone else want to talk about the reaction from the memorial?

What we think of it's the impact, any lasting impact that might have had.

I'll just offer up real quick on that lasting impact.

I'm sorry, I do think it'll have lasting impact, but not necessarily because of the memorial.

I think Charlie Kirk, his life and his ministry is going to have a lasting impact.

And I think, I think Eve mentioned it, that he's even more impactful now because even people who were unaware of Charlie Kirk or listened to him on a nominal basis.

Basis.

I can just speak to my own family.

I didn't even know my children knew who Charlie Kirk was.

But my 17 year old sons, they came home that day and they were talking about it.

And for probably two weeks straight afterwards, there was a Charlie Kirk video on our TV every day that they were watching.

Their friends were talking about it at church.

So I think Charlie Kirk's life ministry and his message will have a lasting impact.

And it was only accelerated because of his death and the memorial service that reached the world.

Agreed.

Well said.

Yeah.

And so in my public school, I mean, teenagers were talking to me about it.

I work in a predominantly black school, maybe 85% black, 15% Latino.

I mean, a lot of kids were talking about it.

And what, what race are those people, by the way?

Well, you have to watch them run.

They're human.

The human race, human race.

And I mean, a lot of the kids had listened to Charlie Kirk and they were like, yeah, people say he was a racist, but you know, I, I didn't think he was a racist.

I thought, I thought he made a lot of sense.

You know, Now I had one person who worked in the school that I had texted and I texted that Ray Comfort had done something on Charlie Kirk.

And because they were going to have on their podcast.

And the response was, well, you know, he spoke against black people and women of color and I really, I feel bad about his family, but I really don't want to hear anything about him.

And I was thinking, man, how sad, because this person as well identifies as a believer, you know, but a lot of the students were very open to, to dialogue about it.

And a lot of them start the.

Conversation, hey, I'll just mention here, because I'm a, I'm in the military, but I'm a junior ROTC instructor at an inner city high school.

Predominantly Hispanic Hispanic, very impoverished school.

And one of the classes we had shortly after his assassination, we were just sitting around or in a circle Asking kids, you know, if you could meet anyone famous to have lunch with, who would you want to have lunch with?

And probably out of the 80 kids we saw, probably five to six of them said Charlie Kirk, which was pretty shocking.

Wow.

And they were all talking about Charlie Kirk the days after he was killed.

So, I mean, even in the inner city, Hispanic, New Mexican culture, Charlie Kirk had an impact.

Wow.

Interesting.

So let's get into, you know, last, the, the last theology throwdown we did.

We talked about Christian nationalism, some stuff with Doug Wilson since he had done.

We, you know, our last episode with his, his interview.

And so, you know, let, let's talk about the Christian nationalism aspect.

There were, there are people who believe that Charlie Kirk was a Christian nationalist.

Now I think we even did this, mentioned this in the last episode is that the problem is what's the, what is the proper definition of a Christian nationalist?

That's the problem.

You can go back and listen to our last episode where we talk about that.

But it is a thing where I, I said, then I'll say, now I don't like the term Christian nationalist because it's a term that the left came up with.

They came up with it, you know, for the purpose of, you know, saying all Christians are trying to do insurrection.

And so I, I just don't think it helpful to, to feed them with that.

That's my view.

But.

So the, but there is a thing where, because he spoke on political things, people just assume he wanted to make a, create a Christian nation, not just a conservative nation, not just a, you know, a moral nation, but he was specifically wanted to see a Christian nation.

Now I'm using those two words separately.

Right.

He wants to see a nation that was made up of Christians.

And so I, I do, I don't want to rehash everything we did last episode, but when we talk about Charlie Kirk in light of being a Christian nationalist, is there anyone.

And I just don't know where you guys are at, so I'll just, I'll just ask, is there anyone here who thinks he was a Christian nationalist?

And if so, why.

And then is there anyone here who thinks he was not a Christian nationalist?

And if so, why?

I know, I know my view.

But Spencer, what are your thoughts?

I do believe he was a Christian nationalist.

Again, maybe not by the left's definition, which is interesting.

It used to be white Christian nationalist.

They got that part pretty quickly.

But, you know, I'm a Christian nationalist.

I love God and I love this country, and I think this country is run better when we're run by biblical morality, if that's, and I, you know, we have Christian people who love and fear God.

And in fact, that's the only way this country can truly be free.

I mean, go live in atheistic North Korea and see how free you are.

Or Islamic like Iran, go see how free you are.

So I do believe he was, but I think he was a true Christian nationalist.

Again, someone who loved God.

He had a biblical worldview.

He desired to see godly men and women in leadership roles, not to, you know, establish a theocracy, but to establish this country in a way that it doesn't actually just, it's not abhorrent to God on every front like it currently, currently is.

So I think he was, and I don't think we should be ashamed of that.

All right, let me, let me give a new voice for the audience to hear.

A.m. brewster just got came in.

So I, so you guys hear his voice and know his name, his podcast.

Aaron, if you wouldn't mind just quickly introducing yourself your podcast and then the question is to you is, do you, do you think that Charlie Kirk was a Christian nationalist?

If so, why would he, what would you base it on?

So my name is Aaron Brewster and I have two podcasts on the Christian podcast community.

I have Truth Love Parent and I have the Celebration of God.

And Truth Love Parent is one that's still putting out new episodes, but Celebration of God is still super relevant every single year.

You guys will check out both of those.

I think I'm going to have a difficult time answering this only because as talking with lots of different Christian nationalists, I think they all defined it differently.

So, you know, I've heard some people who would not accept Charlie Kirk into their camp, but I, not considering myself a Christian nationalist by most definitions I've heard, would consider him to be because I think he was more so than I am.

Right.

And then at the same time, I, I agree 100 with what the last speaker said.

Spencer, to the degree that, you know.

I, yeah, Spencer, I, I, I do love my country.

It can only ever glorify God.

It'll only ever thrive as it submits to him.

Right?

As at least is doing the job that God created it to do, which is punishing evil and rewarding good.

So to that degree, if that's the definition of Christian nationalists, I guess I am too.

And Charlie would be as well.

But I think that the vast majority of people out there with blogs and with podcasts and with voices claiming to be Christian nationalists, they look at It a little bit differently and I think that Charlie potentially looked at it differently than I do.

I cannot say that definitively though, not having heard all of this content and whatnot.

I just get that impression from some of the things I've said.

So I guess I would say that some areas where I might disagree with Charlie is the fact that there are certain things in the scriptures that God demands that I don't believe the government has the right to or should demand.

In fact, I think that when the government starts demanding it, we actually end up where we are today as a country.

If you start legislating for sinful, self worshiping country promoting reasons, certain things of God like the church you go to and things like that, then you end up creating a lifeless, soulless, self focused religion based behavior in a country.

And that's.

I mean yes, we like to think that a bunch of people murdering other people for their own glory is bad, right?

But honestly a bunch of people going to church for their own glory is just as bad in God's eyes and ends up with people in hell.

So.

So I do want a country where we are safe.

I do want a country where we are free to worship the Lord as he would have us.

But I think that there are definitely lines that can be crossed that aren't as beneficial as a lot of Christian nationalists think they are.

All right, Eve, any thoughts that you might have on this, on him being a Christian nationalist?

Well, he actually answered that question.

I think somebody asked him point blank if he was a Christian nationalist and he said, I, I'm a patriot, I love my country.

And that way I'm a nationalist and I am a Christian, I, I represent Christ and.

But I am not.

He says, I don't necessarily.

In that vein, I would consider myself a Christian nationalist.

But he doesn't necessarily hold to the camp.

And I think one of the reasons why he gets consistently tied with them is that he had kind of a big tent in which he collected friends under.

And I don't think Charlie ever turned anybody away.

I think if somebody came and talked to him and did so civilly, he would spend time, you know, talking to them, he would publicly be friends with them and, and he would not turn his back on anybody.

And because of that I think he would be seen publicly with people that then people would associate with him.

Well, he was seen with this person, so that makes him part of this camp and he was seen with this person and he said nice things about this person, so that makes him part of that camp.

And I think it was just an aspect of who he was as a person that he just, he, if he would make friends out of anybody, regardless.

I've seen some young influencers who are, would not put themselves forward as being Christian who considered Charlie to be a very close friend and have been publicly mourning him.

And if you associated with everybody who considered him a friend, then he was gay, he was a nationalist.

He was, you know, it's just like throw it all out there because there, there wasn't anybody he wouldn't be a friend with.

And so I think that that's how he gets tied in with some of these movements.

And I don't know, I think to me, I, I think that there can be some problems with publicly associating with everybody, but at the same time, Jesus managed to do it.

He always called people to repentance.

And we don't know, we don't know how those friendships went.

You know, when he was friends with people who needed the Lord, you know, how privately, how much time did he spend, you know, trying to draw them to Christ.

And so, you know, only God knows what was actually in his heart.

But I don't think he was a Christian nationalist.

Yeah, I, I just, me personally, I mean, he went to a Calvary chapel so that, you know, like for people that were trying to say he was trying to bring in the kingdom, like with a post millennial thinking, I don't think he would have had that from a Calvary Chapel.

But it doesn't mean that just because he went to a Calvary chapel, he agreed with all their theology.

I mean, you know, one of our other podcasters, Matt Slick from Matt Slick Live, he, he would be a Presbyterian and he attends Calvary Chapel, you know, you know, used to for many, many years.

And he's a hardcore Calvinist and his pastor was hardcore anti Calvinist.

So, you know, just because where he goes to church doesn't dictate what he believes.

You know, it may give us some insight.

But I think Eve you, you know, actually referring to what he actually said on it, well, that's kind of like cheating.

So what do we think about though, you know, his, his methods.

You know, I think it was Phil you mentioned, Ray Comfort was invited out to TPC TP USA event afterwards.

And if, if anyone watched that, you know, you could go, go watch that on Living Waters.

You.

Ray got up, EZ got up, Mark Spence got up, and then Oscar got up.

And I actually personally thought Oscar did really well because he did have someone that really, you heard him emphasize with and sympathize with them, with real compassion for them in what they had gone through.

And it was, you know, I think for the people who came for a TP USA event though, what they got was a Living Waters event, Open air evangelism.

Right.

They're different.

I think that Charlie Kirk's method was open form debate.

You know, it's kind of like what I do on Apologetics Live where anyone can come in and ask any question.

Well, anyone could come up to the mic with a TP USA event and ask any question where really I think when, when Ray was doing it, they were about sharing the gospel.

Right.

And so you saw Ray kind of avoid certain questions because he just wanted to get to the gospel.

And, and so there is a difference there.

Let's recognize that difference.

Some of us may be more strong one way or the other, wanting to see things go one way more the other.

Some people felt that, that you know, Charlie wasn't a Christian martyr because he wasn't just sharing the gospel.

And I, I had to tell people like, I've been out, you know, and so have you.

Phil Sessa, you were with him in, in New when he came to New York.

And so we've seen him.

He doesn't just do of.

He plays clips of him just sharing the gospel, but he does a lot of apologetics and he would answer a lot of questions.

You know, issue.

I mean the, the film 180 came out of him addressing the issues of abortion.

Right.

So I, I just want us to be careful not to think that, well, you know, it has to be just preaching the gospel over and over and over again.

Because I think a big reason Charlie big did draw the big crowds is that he would take any question that anyone can come up and ask him anything and he would, he would study and prepare himself.

And I'm going to, I'll say this, I'm going this A long winded me kind of giving my answer I guess to this question as well.

You know, Phil, Phil will know this.

But you know, one of the things that some of the guys Living Water Mark Spence would say is you don't have to know everything all at once.

You just, just know the, the answer to the last question.

When, when Charlie Kirk started doing this, he would, he would really address one issue, study one issue at a time and get really good at the one issue and then move on to a different issue.

Right.

So that toward the end of his life he could just take any topic and he, he had that repertoire because he had so studied all of these things.

And I, I would say that whatever method you're going to do, that might be the, the best thing to do is just don't try to learn everything all at once.

But I, the question is, is, you know, looking at his methods, his tactics for, for doing open form debates versus just sharing the gospel.

Now some people think that that style is divisive, but was it effective?

Should we, should we avoid that?

Should we emulate that?

Should we just share the gospel like Ray Comfort would do or, and Ray doesn't just do that, but that's, he wants to focus on that versus Charlie answering, you know, these questions, giving, you know, arguments and then bringing it to the gospel.

So.

Can I just jump in there?

Yeah, yeah.

So first of all, Charlie is extremely well studied.

Yes.

I mean the guy read like 100 books a year.

So as far as a student, he's an incredible student in a lot of different areas.

And I think he used to be commended for just being an incredible, studious man.

He, he had a wide, a plethora of knowledge on a lot of different topics.

He, he, he wasn't like a one shot pony.

He, he could speak about pork.

Pork.

Sports, I guess.

Pork too, right.

I heard once you got into a debate over a Star wars movie or something, I didn't follow that, but there you go.

I mean he, he could, he could speak about abortion and then who's a better basketball player, Lebron or Michael Jordan?

And what I loved was, I mean, he applied logic across the board and sort of like Voddie mentions, if you learn a few categories, you can speak to a lot of different issues.

If you learn basic categories and you just kind of pull that, that file out of your mind.

And so he was, he was very skilled in that.

Of course he had a capacity to hold a lot of information, but I think that his methodology worked really well.

He let the person speak, he would say things, he would pause, he would ask for clarification.

What do you mean by this?

He was asking questions.

It wasn't just a lecture.

And so he was eliciting dialogue.

So it wasn't just, okay, you've asked your question, now shut up and let me just give my answer.

So his approach was great.

And I think that as believers, we should be able to speak on various topics.

I mean, the, the, the woman, the, the two prostitutes that came to Solomon and said, well, this is my baby.

No, it's my baby.

I mean, he spoke to that issue.

He didn't say, well, that's Outside of my realm.

I don't deal with babies.

I'm a king.

No, he spoke.

Spoke to that issue.

And I think we should be able to.

To speak to issues and bring logic to such issues.

And then as we're able to, perhaps we can steal steel, steer certain issues to the gospel.

If we don't know, like, if somebody brings up, well, you know, who do you think's right?

You know, do you think, you know, Israel's right or, you know, is Hamas and, you know, what's happening over in Palestine and all of that?

I mean, I was approached with that at a street fair, and I said, well, you know, that one I kind of, you know, did a U turn back to the gospel because that's what we were actually talking about.

And I said, well, this really doesn't have to do with what we're talking about concerning the gospel, where you're going to go when you die.

So I think it depends on what the question is and what's your capacity to understand and how you dialogue.

All right, since Aaron, you came in a little bit later, give you.

Give you a shot.

What are your thoughts on the.

On his.

The methodology?

Before I answer, just out of curiosity, do you guys touch early on about the element that we all face in regard to fear of man and the difficulty of speaking truth in public?

And you didn't.

Okay, because I think part of that is how I would want to answer this.

One of the things I think that.

Charlie did well, and I think Phil spoke to this as well, is that he had a conversation.

There are lots of people who, when they go out, whether it's street preaching or street evangelism or whatever the case may be, I mean, so many of us.

I know that I, myself, myself, as a biblical counselor, as somebody who feels like all day long, every day, I'm speaking truth.

There are certain situations in which I find myself where the flesh just is scared, uncomfortable.

I don't want to do.

And all of these are not.

These are bad reasons.

Like, I'm not justifying and saying it's okay.

But one of the things I love that Charlie did is he thrust himself into a situation where he invited, I don't want to say conflict.

That happened a lot, but he invited conversation, he invited disagreement.

He put himself out there.

He made himself vulnerable.

And I think one of the reasons he was so well studied is, yes, he was a smart man who enjoyed learning, but he also created an organization that thrust him out there, and he knew he had to have answers.

He knew he had to be able to talk about stuff.

So, yeah, that's really powerful.

And I think that we all need to put ourselves into those situations, whether it's.

I've said this before on the show, but, you know, I've been out to eat with Andrew and really appreciated how, you know, and I actually was just in a.

In a church in Louisiana, and the pastor there did the exact same thing where, you know, they.

The waitress takes your order, right?

And then you say, hey, you know, we're about to pray for our food.

Is there anything that we could pray for you for?

We're Christians.

This is the church we go to.

We believe.

And there are lots of different ways of framing it, but basically telling yourself, this is something I'm going to do, I'm going to do this when I go out because it pleases the Lord, yes, but I need to make myself do it.

Otherwise we'll have tons of excuses for not doing it.

And that's basically by sitting out there putting up a sign early in the early days, right?

He was thrusting himself into that.

And some people might say, well, that was just Charlie's personality that came easy to him because that's who he was.

And you know what?

Maybe.

Maybe that's true.

I don't know.

I know that I. I tend to be more introverted.

Actually, I believe it or not, I need to force myself to be extroverted.

But I think that we as Christians have to force ourselves to be a little bit more extroverted.

If we're going to be salt and light and we're not going to hide it under a bushel, we've got to make ourselves do that.

So if taking a page out of Charlie's book of how he pushed himself, invited a disagreement, invited conversation, and even invited conflict in order to speak the truth, then that's something we can all learn from.

That's a good point, Spencer.

I mean, I. I thought his methods were wonderful.

I mean, I'm in agreement with what the other gentlemen have said already.

I think, you know, as Christians, we're supposed to be in the world.

If God didn't want us in the world, he would have taken us out of the world.

You know, this is why, like, the monastery doesn't work.

You know, you sitting in a dark room with the Bible isn't actually all that impactful on the world.

You know, we have to figure out where.

Where are the people that need to hear the gospel, and then we need to be where they are.

You know, this is something I don't like Hearing, you hear a lot of times, you know, we're going to go to, you know, a basketball game or watch a game.

You know, in our house, we have a lot of kids over that like to watch sports.

It's like, well, I don't like to watch sports.

I don't like to go to football games, or I don't like to be around large crowds at parties, or I don't like to do a million things.

But do you, you know, like to speak about God?

Do you like to find people that near need to hear the gospel?

Then you kind of have to go to where the people are and you need to talk about the things that people want to talk about.

I mean, that's very rare opportunities in life when you walk up to someone and they go, hey, sir, share the gospel of Jesus Christ with me if you would.

You know, never had that happen.

Never had that happen.

But there's a million opportunities to just engage with someone in dialogue about a million different topics.

Like you said, it could be Michael Jordan and LeBron James.

You don't have to love sports.

Do you love the person that talking to you about sports?

Then talk to him about it.

Learn something.

I mean, we can stretch ourselves a little bit, right?

You know, If Charlie's reading 100 books a year, you know, if you know that your grandson, who isn't a believer yet, like sports, well, you can go out of your way to watch a basketball game once a week.

I mean, I don't think that's too much to, you know, to stretch yourself.

You don't have to be setting up Turning Point USA events at college campuses in front of thousands of people to do what Charlie Kirk did.

You just have to be willing and able to engage with people, listen and learn.

I mean, you can have a conversation with anybody about any topic.

You don't have to know anything about it.

Oh, well, sure.

I mean, I don't know anything about Indian food.

Tell me about Indian food.

Let's talk about it.

You know, and then now I know you and we have a relationship and we can maybe steer this conversation in a different direction.

You know, I think there's some truth to that adage that, you know, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

I think that's very true in the Christian realm.

And, you know, all your theology, all your, you know, books read and Bible study, none of it matters if you can't actually get to people and talk to them and, and share that knowledge.

So I think Charlie's methods were spot on.

And I think it was spot on because he wasn't aggressive, he wasn't attacking.

I mean, people say he was, but that's people lying about Charlie, by and large.

There might have been rare instances, but for the most part, he was courteous to people.

He was respectful.

He wasn't overly judgmental.

He just spoke what he believed to be the truth.

He didn't accept, you know, the lies when people told it to him.

But, you know, he was just open and honest, and he drove the conversation where he wanted to go.

And I think that's a lesson we can all learn.

If I may real quick, just speak to what Spencer just said, because that was so.

That's so, so powerful what I'm about to say.

This has nothing to do with me.

I think this is just my attempt to try to be more Christ honoring by being someone more like Charlie.

Right.

But my family and I have started to look for inroads into our community to see where we can be more salt and light, build those relationships, show people that we care.

And one of the things that we've done is we actually tried to identify the places where we were not inherently going in that direction.

Right.

It's very easy for us to be comfortable doing what we love.

What happens is if you love golf and you're gonna go play golf with guys, yes, you can be a testimony for Chrysler, but it's oftentimes really easy to kind of just slide into.

Just.

I'm here, I am, I'm comfortable and I'm playing golf.

Right.

And I'm liking it, and these guys are cool, and so we're just going out with our lives.

But to make deliberate inroads into an intersection of your community where you wouldn't normally go, kind of keeps it more in front of your face as to why you're there.

Where did Charlie choose to go?

A place that none of us who have graduated from college and aren't college professors go.

A place who needs us.

Because it is dark.

It is doubly dark on these college campuses.

He forced himself to go to places that needed the truth.

And so what we try to do as a family is just identify areas in our community here in Brevard where there isn't a light, where there aren't a lot of Christians there building relationships and speaking truth and love and then choosing to go to those places because it's the darkest place and that's what it needs it most.

And I think that's a good thing that we can all Do I guess, in a way to, again, to be more like Charlie.

But of course, that's not why we're here.

Right?

We're here to be like Christ.

We're here to obey God.

But I think he set a good example in these areas.

Eve give you the last on.

On this one?

Yeah.

Well, it's better than being first, actually.

Good to hear what everybody else says first.

I, I think that Charlie had a talent for open debate.

I think he was gifted.

I think God blessed him with a song, a way to hold all of that knowledge in your head and to be able to engage with people in a very civil way and be able to politely hold your ground.

And he just did it so well.

I don't know that there will ever be another Charlie Kirk, because he was specifically gifted in that.

And I think that those who step forward to do something like that, they need to make sure they're prepared because they're going to get people who try a lot of gotchas.

There were a lot of people who did that with Charlie.

They would come up and think they had the argument that was going to knock him aside and, And.

And he would always hold his ground.

And I know there's a lot of young people that are.

Are taking up the Charlie Kirk mantle and are putting up, you know, tables all over college campuses to, to answer questions and stuff.

And, And I just.

I think that it takes a certain kind of person to do it, and I think they need to make sure that they're prepared to do what Charlie did.

I was actually a little turned off by watching Ray Comfort's TPUSA event at Cal State.

I got about halfway through Ray Comfort's, and I actually thought he was making people angry.

And I don't know that his attempt to share the gospel is going anywhere, because even the Christians who are in the crowd were getting mad at him.

And so I think it's.

You just have to be careful.

Pick your.

Pick your location.

And I think what Aaron was saying is.

Is important too.

It's like, you know, do something that you're interested in, find that point of connection, and use that to help draw people to the Lord.

I love the way Andrew does it on his podcast.

Whenever he goes on with an interview, he has somebody challenge him to turn any topic into the gospel.

And I've always thought that was fun, and I think that's something that we can all improve on, but I don't know that we can all do what Charlie Kirk did.

I think that.

That he was specifically gifted in Being able to have answers and hold all that information in his head.

And I think his example, the fact that he got so big and drew such big crowds that the only way they could shut him up was to assassinate him, is in some way a warning, but in some way it should embolden us because it can be done.

It can.

There is a way to reach those people in a way that makes them fear.

Fear Christ.

Because the Christians are so bold with the gospel.

We just have to make sure we know our stuff before we put ourselves into those kind of situations, if that makes any sense.

And Eve, I think that, yes, I don't think we can have a carbon copy of a Charlie Kirk, but I do think that we can do a better job in our churches in training people in dialogue, in rhetoric, in engaging people in apologetics with the gospel.

I think that the professional minister mindset, the celebrity pastor mindset sometimes takes us by storm.

We look at voting and go, oh, man, look how great he does it.

Well, I mean, voting wasn't always voting and able to do what voting did.

And I remember when Andrew had asked me to come to the, one of his jersey fires, and I was, I think, sitting next to Phil Johnson and Easy Zwain, and I was like, oh, man, I'm sitting next to like, John MacArthur Jr. And Ray Comfort Jr. And what am I gonna.

If they pass me to Mike during Q and A, what am I gonna say?

And then, you know, and, and of course, you know, we have Andrew and, you know, so I make everyone look good.

You know, Andrew's knowledgeable as well, you know, but when they passed me in the mic, I felt, you know, that I was able to, to respond to the questions.

And then Phil Johnson turned and said, that was a good point.

It's like, okay, but I mean, I, we can train other people, you know, to, to learn how to respond.

Listen, we have God in our, in our corner.

We have the Holy Spirit in our lives, we have the truth in our corner.

And learning how to dialogue with people who don't have the truth.

I, I mentioned in the chat that if you have not read the book Expository Apologetics, highly recommend that book.

It also helps you to learn how to do the, the expository waltz in dialoguing with people.

And so, yes, we all may not go out to Athens, so to speak, like Paul or Charlie Kirk, and, and have a large audience, but can we dialogue with one person?

Can we start with just one and, and engage one person and, and have the conversation back and forth with A single individual.

Because of course you're not going to go to the many if you can't go to a single person.

And I think we need to step on the limb and, and make an attempt at doing so because we probably know a lot more than we think we do.

And people probably know a lot less than they think that they do if they have an unbiblical worldview because they think that.

I got your moment.

I mean, if they don't know the gospel, they got you for what they.

They don't know.

Now, I had a girl in our church who is taking social work, and she's just.

She's basically in a liberal cesspool.

And they brought.

And so one of the things that were brought up was, was the murder of Charlie Kirk and act of care.

And they were trying to bring about, you know, talking about justice and everything like that.

So I said to her, how can they posit justice?

But actually they're actually promoting injustice and calling it justice.

And so I was trying to help equip her to be able to have answers in her college classroom.

And so, because I, I can't go to her college classroom as her pastor, so she, she's going into the lion's den and she needs to be able to have good responses.

But I think that we really need to help, you know, be equipped ourselves and then equip other people to do that work.

Yeah, I think that you.

This, this is the one thing, if I can, you know, and I kind of said it earlier, but it becomes the question of this needs to be something that you, you don't go in thinking you're going to learn everything in a day.

Yes, and that's the mistake a lot of people make is they think.

And look, those videos are going.

Have been out there.

There's.

If you, if you go and you look, you'll see the videos of people who, they.

They thought they could be the next Charlie Kirk.

And you know, they just, you know, it's the, the Dunning Kruger effect.

They thought they had more knowledge than they did.

It looks real easy when you're watching Charlie do it, but it's a lot different when you're standing in front of the people and, and all of a sudden you don't have all the knowledge you thought you had.

And that's.

And some of the people that are challenging us have the same thing.

They, they come in thinking they have a great, you know, arguments always work in a monologue.

As I said to someone this week, I have never lost a debate in my own head.

It's when I start talking to someone else that I suddenly realize, hey, maybe that argument wasn't as good as I thought it was.

Right.

In our own mind, we, we can't think of any, any arguments that defeat our arguments.

Right.

And so we always win the debates in our head.

And there's some people that are trying to go out and be like Charlie, but they're not doing it the way Charlie did it.

Not learning one thing at a time, not focusing it back to the gospel.

The, the.

So I, I would agree with what you guys had said.

I think that a big part of it is, it's, it's that in the method to do it.

I, My encouragement.

And I'm just saying this is someone, you know, sort of what you said there, Phil, you know, you know, I get people that watch me on the street do open air, and like, I can't do like you do.

You know, Charlie was especially gifted, but maybe not.

He.

Maybe what it was, was he was more focused.

Maybe he just, he decided that he was.

He put a side.

A lot of other things in life.

Yes.

So that he would be focused on this.

And we're, to be honest, we're distracted with many things.

Maybe, maybe sports, maybe movies, maybe recreational things, none of them being necessarily bad.

And yet he, he put a lot of that aside so he could be more focused on what he was doing.

So I say that to say those who are listening, you could be seen years from now being like a Charlie Kirk, someone who really.

People go, oh, he's so gifted.

People think I'm really gifted with the, the, you know, apologetics.

It's not that I'm super gifted with it.

It's that I've been doing it for a long time.

I mean, after 40 years of, of answering arguments that people make, you start to hear the answers.

You start to, you know, and if I hear something new, I, I just have to go study that one new thing and then, and then really study it and form a response to it.

But over time, answering the same things over and over and over again, you're, you're honing your answers each time and you're improving it.

And so I guess my, my encouragement to folks is don't give up.

Keep learning, Keep studying.

Keep finding good answers from scripture to the, to the issues that are raised in culture or at work, where wherever you, God may have you and, you know, look to be.

Not like, don't be a Charlie Kirk.

Be a follower of Christ.

And, and let's Devote ourselves.

We don't have to go on campus.

Some, some may, but we should be a light in this world.

That would be my thought.

And so with what you were saying, though, you know, we're.

And we're not just, to quote, voting again, we're not just trying to have a battle of wits.

We're trying to have a spiritual encounter with somebody.

Right.

Because behind the questioner, it.

I'm sorry, yeah.

Is.

Is a.

Behind the question people is opposing is a questioner is a person who is lost, who is in darkness.

And even if the person comes with the gotcha, of course we have those people.

They don't want an answer.

They just want to do the gotcha.

But there are some people that really want answers to the questions that they have, and they're struggling.

And here we come along and it behooves us.

I heard, I can't, I can't remember who said this, but basically anyone who's called to preach the word is simultaneously called to be disciplined to study the word.

So we have to be disciplined to study.

And again, we can't learn everything at once.

So if you're going to dialogue on abortion, you can't have every argument, but if you just learn a few basic ones on, on a few categories, you can answer a lot of questions because there's nothing new under the sun.

And like Andrew said, well, every now and again somebody brings up something he never heard of before.

But I'm gathering a lot of questions that we get are questions that we've heard of before.

I mean, if you watch some of the Charlie Kirk videos, you're hearing a lot of the same questions and he's given a lot of the same answers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, when you have a battle of wits, sometimes, you know, I remember once trying to have a battle of wits and I lost miserably.

And, and Phil pointed out that I was arguing with a brick wall and I still lost.

So, you know, there is those times.

So.

Right.

You sound.

Have a battle of wits.

Yeah, I know that's a movie.

I've at least learned that.

But.

Yes, so.

So I hope this folks that this.

Has been helpful for you.

Educational.

I.

If you did learn something, maybe you could share this with others.

We'll be, we.

We do this every month and so we'll be back next month to have another throwdown on another topic.

What that topic is, I don't know know yet.

I'm sure it'll be good, though.

I'm sure we'll agree.

I'm sure we'll disagree but I know we'll have love and charity for one another.