Artwork for podcast Deep Transformation
The Moral Imperative to Help Ukraine (Part 1): Integral Perspectives on the War, Its Global Implications, and the Role of Warrior Consciousness
Episode 2221st April 2022 • Deep Transformation • Deep Transformation Podcast
00:00:00 00:45:41

Share Episode


Ep. 22 (Part 1 of 2) | Integral leaders Kateryna Yasko, Vytautas Bučiūnas, and Bence Ganti illuminate many of the most poignant and pressing questions of our time, brought to the fore by the ongoing war in Ukraine: Can postmodern people embrace a warrior consciousness when necessary? Are Russians, brainwashed by propaganda, who explicitly support the war worthy of compassion? Can people remain sane and humane while at the same time taking up arms? How can we handle the effects of the psychological trauma that will cascade over generations? And how do we prevent the mass delusion and psychosis that is so easily propagated via modern media technology?

What are the global consequences of the Russian war on Ukraine? The trillions of dollars now being diverted to defense and military weaponry in the West are trillions of dollars that will not be spent on social programs, global health, education, climate change, and food—many people in Africa will starve as a result of this war on the breadbasket, wheat-producing Ukraine. What is wrong with democracy if its leaders can’t step up to the plate, be authentic, strong, and stand up for what is right, while autocrats do whatever they please? A powerful, heart wrenching conversation asking the right questions, pointing towards the answers. Recorded April 15, 2022. 

For more wrestling with the questions, and to share wisdom, ideas, support, and inspiration, there is IEC 2022 (Integral European Conference) this May online and in Budapest. And to donate directly to help the Ukrainian people via Kateryna and Vytautas using iAwake's Funnel to Help, Heal, and Support the Ukrainian People, see below.

The reality is: “If Russia stops fighting, there will be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting, there will be no more Ukraine.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

Topics & Time Stamps - Part 1

  • Ukraine update: the level of trauma has grown very high in the last month, both inside and outside Ukraine, with the discoveries in Bucha and elsewhere (03:18)
  • Everyone feels guilty: the people who have fled, the people in the cities, the people in territorial defense: everyone feels a strong need to contribute more (05:03)
  • The West is consolidating; there’s less naivete about Russia (07:45)
  • People around the world can and need to contribute (09:34)
  • True heroism is coming to the fore; this could be a wake up call for a lot of us (11:35)
  • Bence Ganti, Integral leader and director of the Integral European Conference, talks about the situation in Hungary and the coming IEC in May 2022 (12:32)
  • Kateryna’s perspective on recent weeks: facing an overwhelming, multi-fronted battle on all levels, it’s impossible to give yourself space to take care of yourself (15:40) 
  • In Russia, children in school are taught only propaganda; refugee children are traumatized and don’t speak the language of their host countries (18:28)
  • Disappointment and frustration with opinion leaders, prominent intellectuals in the West, writing articles totally disconnected from the realities of the Ukrainian situation (19:55)
  • Ukraine is slowing gaining agency on several fronts (21:35)
  • This is a meta historic conflict; the West saying this conflict is their fault or the US’ fault is going too far; Russia has been threatening Ukraine since before the US existed (24:40)
  • Otto Scharmer’s article about collaborative diplomacy is not good enough; it’s abstract and divorced from the physical realities of the situation (27:52)
  • The reality is: “If Russia stops fighting, there will be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting, there will be no more Ukraine.” (30:38)
  • What is the most strategic response we can make in this situation to directly address this tragedy and its needs? (32:38)
  • Children in primary school are very tuned in to the collective: smart teachers are using military analogies when teaching (35:12)
  • We have to integrate the “red” stage of development in the educational system…we have to let boys play with guns and speak about it (37:40)
  • We need an Integral stage to understand when to act with which stages (38:57) 
  • Green = a postmodern stage where we strive for harmony, unity, authenticity, connectedness and believe only with love we will solve all conflicts; red = the warrior stage; Integral = a yogi with a rifle (40:35) 
  • Ukrainians fighting from a place of love, somehow they are integrated (43:17)

Resources & References - Part 1

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.


How can I help? iAwake's Funnel to Help, Heal, and Support the Ukrainian People

Deep Transformation sponsor, iAwake Technologies, sends all funds raised on behalf of the Ukrainian people directly to Kateryna Yasko and Vytautas Bučiūnas, who are giving on-the-ground support to Ukrainian refugees in the bordering countries, and sending life-saving medicines and emergency first aid kits into Ukraine via trusted drivers. Sending money directly to the people who are doing the work is much more effective at this stage than sending money to an established NGO or other aid organization, as there is a lot of paperwork and bureaucratic red tape that greatly delays the money from reaching the people who need it the most.

→ Donate here

Please know that 100% of your donation (after PayPal fees) will go directly to Kateryna and Vytautas to be used at their discretion to address the greatest needs as this terrible situation unfolds hour to hour, day to day. This couple has our absolute trust and confidence that they will use the funds we send them in the best and most compassionate and effective way possible.



Kateryna Yasko (Ukraine) is an organizational psychologist, a trainer for the development of emotional intelligence, trust, cooperation, effective communication, and peaceful conflict resolution, and co-founder of the consulting company U-Integral. Her academic background is in the area of international relations and law (MSc), business (MBA), and psychology (MSc). She bases her programs on the principles of Ken Wilber’s Integral approach and Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication, and is certified in Spiral Dynamics Integral and in Susanne Cook-Greuter’s Maturity Assessment Profile. Kateryna is also head of the public association "International Institute for Integral Development" and a founder of the educational initiative EMPATIA.PRO, specializing in bringing  holistic approaches into educational leadership and learning cultures.

Vytautas Bučiūnas (Lithuania–Ukraine) is a co-founder and managing partner of U-Integral, an integral leadership development company. Vytautas also has vast experience as a top manager in the banking sector including working as the Head of Resident Office, Senior Banker, Associate Director at the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (Russia, Ukraine). Vytautas' professional profile includes building organizational units from scratch, carrying out large-scale transformations, and managing crises. Vytautas is a certified Integral Master Coach™ (Integral Coaching Canada), an ICF Professional Certified Coach (PCC)™, and the only business consultant in Ukraine certified in Leadership Maturity Framework – Maturity Assessment for Professionals (LMF-MAP) and Global Leadership Profile (GLP). Vytautas explores the development of human consciousness and complex social systemsfrom a holistic perspective. He considers the growth of a critical mass of mature leaders with systemic thinking and transformational capabilities to be the key to society's healthy development.

Bence Ganti, MA, is the main organizer, co-founder, and director of the Integral European Conferences (since 2014) and the co-founder of Integral Europe team (since 2012). He also created the Integral Academy in Budapest, a 3-year adult education program on integral psychology in 2006. Bence is an integrally oriented clinical psychologist, vipassana meditator, and international teacher of integral psychology. Being a dual citizen of the USA and Hungary, Bence bridges cultures delivering keynote addresses, making presentations, and leading experiential workshops worldwide, including his version of a cutting-edge we-space practice called Integral Flow Experience. In the US, he has taught integral psychology at Meridian University and San Francisco State University and at integral events at  Bay Area Integral, Integral Center in Boulder, and the Integral Theory Conferences. He also represented integral consciousness during the World Economic Forum week in Davos, Switzerland, in 2019.


Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell