Join us for a special episode of "Reimagining Growth From Within" as we celebrate Within People's 10th birthday! Co-founders Jeff Melnyk and Laurie Bennett reflect on a decade of building a self-managed organization, sharing the highs, lows, and lessons learned.

From dreaming on a rooftop in Barcelona to running a purpose-driven company, they offer insights for founders and businesses on balancing growth and sustainability.

Tune in for a conversation full of wisdom and inspiration. Whether you're an entrepreneur, part of a growing company, or just curious about the evolving landscape of work, there's something here for you.

Learn more about Within People and the work we do here.

Hey everyone.

2

Welcome back to Re-Imagining

Work from Within.

3

This is kind of a special podcast cuz

we're gonna do some reflection time.

4

I'm here with Laurie my co-founding

partner at Within People, it's our 10th

5

year, so we thought we would get on

the metaphorical sofa and have a little

6

conversation about what it's been like.

7

But in doing so, we wanted to

sort of share some lessons about

8

what it's like to be a founder,

especially through our context.

9

As you might know, we're a self-managed

organization, so we look through

10

the world a little bit differently.

11

We wanna talk a little bit about that.

12

We wanna talk about what it's been

like through our purpose and our vision

13

of growing a 21st century business.

14

we're gonna talk about work freedom

and what that means and our vision

15

for that and how that's helped us

to navigate the waters, but also

16

has been a bit bumpy along the way.

17

So we wanna share a few lessons from that.

18

Join us, stay with us, and I hope you

find something useful in this today.

19

The beginning is a very

good place to start.

20

Mr.

21

Bennett, we have been in

business now for 10 years.

22

And we've been reflecting, this

is a time of reflection for us.

23

I think 10 is a significant number.

24

We know that we've got some work to do

to think about the next 10 years ahead

25

and what and where that comes, but, Yeah.

26

Did we, I don't know.

27

Like, it's interesting, I'm hoping

other listeners will find this

28

interesting in thinking about

like, what is it like at 10?

29

And if you're just starting your business

now and you're a startup thinking

30

about, oh gosh, am I gonna get that far?

31

And if you're at year eight

thinking, oh, what's it like at 10?

32

And if you're in year 20, you can

be like, yeah, come on boys, we

33

still got some time to go, but did

we think we'd make it this far?

34

Laurie Bennett: I think so.

35

I think that kind of.

36

What does it feel like to be 10?

37

I would say the main thing is surprising.

38

I mean, it makes me feel old,

but in kind of a good way.

39

But I think it doesn't

felt like that long.

40

It's come fast.

41

Yeah.

42

And 10 years goes by

much quicker than you.

43

Imagine it will when you set your vision

at the beginning and imagine yourself,

44

your business 10 years into the future.

45

You imagine that being

a very long time away.

46

And doesn't feel like that.

47

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, a decade.

48

But when we started the business,

we quickly had a thought about

49

the vision of the future.

50

And I think you and I quickly aligned on.

51

We need to start creating a

blueprint for 21st century business.

52

That was something that was

in our desire, our ethos.

53

We had our purpose of helping

people find purpose and grow.

54

That came very quickly to us, but

this idea of 21st century business.

55

Was something that was

quite foggy at the time.

56

I would say.

57

I think we had some ingredients

of what we knew it was gonna be.

58

are we getting closer to knowing

what 21st century business is?

59

Laurie Bennett: I hope so.

60

Cuz one of the things we said we'd

do is try to be one, so 10 years in.

61

Hopefully we can talk a little

bit about what that's like.

62

Is that it wasn't just, let's grow a kind

of traditional consulting business that

63

helps other companies with their cultures.

64

It was, how do we really think about what

21st century business needs to be like?

65

How do we help people step into

that and how do we design from the

66

very beginning our business to be

shaped on certain kind of principles

67

that we saw underpinning that.

68

You know that the context on which we

founded within, which we talk about a

69

lot is, was around freedom, was around

the idea that people should be able

70

to love what they do and who they are

in their work, that we should extend

71

to people the freedom to be able to

find the work they're most meaningful

72

about and deliver it in the ways they

get most joy out of doing and get out

73

there and be able to make an impact.

74

In the world they wanna make whilst

being treated like grownups inside

75

the business where they work.

76

The sorts of shifts that we wanted

to see in businesses then that I

77

think we really are seeing now.

78

Like if I jump to now and we start

thinking, especially post pandemic

79

about distributed workforces, people

with a totally different relationship

80

to when, how, where they work.

81

the importance of

meaningful work for people.

82

We're really starting to see a lot

of the stuff that we sat dreaming

83

about on a Barcelona rooftop

coming into the zeitgeist today.

84

Which is kind of cool to see.

85

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

86

Some of the things that we started

to imagine, I sometimes thought they

87

would happen a little bit faster,

and I think sometimes we forget that

88

change does take a while to happen.

89

I think the pace of change has been

accelerated because of the pandemic

90

and certainly things like flexibility,

which we've always built into our

91

model and our dream based around

that vision is something we've

92

held onto as being very important

to the idea of freedom, but that.

93

Really didn't come into fruition into

21st century business until most recently.

94

A lot of that's also being rolled back.

95

So it's like this vision of, the

kind of world of work that we wanna

96

be part of creating isn't something

that is just gonna come overnight.

97

I think one reflection on the 10 years

is, like you said, is like it's gone by.

98

Fast, but yet at the same time,

there's still so much more.

99

Laurie Bennett: classic like,

yeah, when are the hover boards

100

finally going to be here?

101

You know?

102

Yes.

103

We've been waiting for them for 50

years and they're still not here,

104

Jeff Melnyk: I feel like sometimes

in San Francisco you think

105

you're gonna see a hoverboard.

106

There was a guy walking down

the Castro on stilts yesterday

107

wearing some butterfly wings.

108

I think he thought he was on

a hover board, but not quite.

109

Laurie Bennett: But what

was, let me ask you like.

110

Let's go to that, that rooftop

in Barcelona where you and I,

111

in a flurry of Post-It notes and

dreams kind of hatched what we

112

thought this business was gonna be.

113

What do you remember from

that conversation that kind

114

of still sticks with us today?

115

Jeff Melnyk: I think it's important for

everyone to remember that really you can

116

only run a business off of Post-it notes.

117

True.

118

I think that's one thing that

people should take away as a truth

119

that is held true in our decade.

120

And that we should have bought

stock in 3M years ago, cuz we

121

would've been bajillionaire by now.

122

But I, well, I remember the feeling.

123

Of it, and I think that's the importance

of visioning is like the embodied

124

feeling of what you're trying to create

is often much more important than the

125

actual strategy that comes from it.

126

I think we had multiple tracks

of work that then came off of it

127

strategically from that rooftop.

128

I remember the feeling, I remember that

idea of that optimism that something could

129

change, that we could be the creators

of that change and that our purpose

130

could be the North Star that guided us.

131

I remember some of the artifacts that

to this day are so integral to our, to

132

our product and our business, like a

business based around joy and impact

133

and profitability through collaboration.

134

All of those things were on the rooftop

and that feeling of the sunshine being

135

in Barcelona, creating it together,

knowing that's where we're going.

136

I think that's the power of

visioning that's so important to

137

creating 21st century business.

138

We can't create 21st century business

off of the dreams of the past.

139

We have to get into the visioning

mindset to create it going forward.

140

Laurie Bennett: We had to, right.

141

That's why we were there.

142

I think there's been a theme over

10 years of seeking out warm and

143

beautiful places in which to work.

144

although here I am in Vancouver,

which fulfills at least half of

145

that brief, I guess at most times.

146

I remember that feeling too.

147

And I remember the sort of abandon

with which we would casually say

148

things like, we're not gonna employ

anybody and we're only gonna work

149

with people who wanna do this work.

150

And all of these kind of

151

whimsical, borderline naive thoughts

about business can work in a way

152

that it's never done before and we're

gonna change it all, which is amazing.

153

And I think sort of starting to think

about now, What it felt like immediately

154

after we came down from the rooftop

saying that to people and them looking

155

at us with a kind of polite raised

eyebrow, and they're like, mm-hmm.

156

We'll see how long that lasts.

157

Was an interesting kind of come down.

158

But I think the strength of

that vision and what we set

159

ourselves to then largely has.

160

Been what's guided, how we've

grown and what's brought us to

161

where we find ourselves today.

162

And we've done pretty well on

not compromising on that vision.

163

I think what you say about change

happening slower than we imagine has

164

caused us to kind of maybe ramp back

some of the ambitious enthusiasm about

165

this can all be happening already.

166

But the truth is it is happening and

some of those things that felt straight

167

up weird to folks when we were talking

about it back then feels straight

168

up normal to them now, and feels

like a good discussion to be having.

169

Jeff Melnyk: Oh, the problems

of being vision raised.

170

Yeah, you've gotta get

a bit crazy, don't you?

171

Because , if your dream is

something that can happen

172

tomorrow, it's not really a dream.

173

You're just kind of planting

the seeds of a strategy.

174

I think that was the power of that

experience was to create something

175

that what quite out of reach to, to do

and, yeah, I'm proud that we've held

176

true to some of those principles and.

177

I know that we've had to let go of

some things that didn't serve us.

178

That maybe they weren't, they might

have been getting in the way of

179

us growing, but our purpose is to

help people find purpose and grow.

180

Growth was important.

181

I remember we also said like growth

is a dirty word to many people.

182

We'd come outta the sustainability

movement and growth is bad.

183

And that wasn't our perspective.

184

That actually, if you wanna grow, Your

business, growing it through your people,

185

through impact and by doing it in a way

that was sustainable was really important.

186

Have we grown, what does growth mean now?

187

Laurie Bennett: grayer maybe?

188

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

189

That is the truth.

190

Laurie Bennett: you know,

growth took a really funny.

191

Shape for us.

192

We were an international business within

a year, even though there were only

193

four of us in the team, we had opened

up in South Africa and we're doing

194

work kind of all around the world.

195

So there was some aspects of kind of

the traditional understanding of growth.

196

When you say that word in the context of.

197

Being a startup or an entrepreneur

or beginning your business, you tend

198

to think about quantities of things,

of clients, of revenue, of markets,

199

of employees and other things.

200

And I think growth has never

really taken that shape for us.

201

it's been about a deepening of.

202

Understanding, I think more about

what it means to drive that vision of

203

21st century business, starting , to

really experience and feel out what it

204

means to try to build a wholehearted

business that's largely self-managed.

205

And , doesn't look at the

same growth drivers as other.

206

Consultancies who look like us might.

207

And I think, if I reflect now 10 years on

what growth I've noticed it's been more

208

about the depth and impact of the product

that we've built, the way that we're

209

able to shape and help cultures around

the world in different organizations

210

to flourish and grow and kind of be at

a pointy end of a movement that feels.

211

Super important for how business

sees itself, how people working in

212

businesses see themselves, and how

that influences the way society works.

213

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, I think , we

never wanted what we were

214

doing to just be about.

215

A European model or a Western model of

working, and that's been something that's

216

been really interesting to experiment

with over the last decade is, is there

217

one blueprint for 21st century business?

218

Our, reflection is, yes, there

is, and that can work in all these

219

different contexts around the world.

220

So to me, being able to work in

every market we've done work in every

221

continent, apart from Antarctica

And to really understand what it is

222

that we do that helps people in all

of those different places, those

223

different cultures within cultures.

224

That to me is where I feel like we've

experienced growth, the depth of our work.

225

We've always had revenue

growth year on year.

226

That's always been great, but

really to me it's the product

227

and the way it's helped people.

228

That's been.

229

The story of our growth more so than

the number of people we have or the

230

number of geographical locations.

231

Laurie Bennett: Yeah.

232

I think , for us, people has been

a route to impact, like being able

233

to deliver the kind of change that

we wanna make in organizations.

234

As a business, primarily based

on coaching and consulting.

235

you need people to help

you to work with that.

236

And I think we've been navigating a

world where that work has been reasonably

237

, not , the main thing that

people have been doing.

238

It's been.

239

, a kind of group of leaders and we've

been very careful to be looking for what

240

we call leaders committed to change.

241

So people who it matters less, what

sector they're in, what stage of business

242

they're at, what size of business they

are, but matters much more about what

243

they want their culture to look like and

how invested in change for themselves

244

and growth for themselves, they are in

guiding their organizations that way.

245

And at the same time working on

a model for our own business That

246

looks really weird in the general

landscape of consulting businesses.

247

You know, a place where you are

afforded a totally different degree

248

of freedom, but with that comes

a level of self responsibility

249

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, I think that's every

c e o we're working with now is like, I.

250

How do I get people to understand

what accountability is?

251

And my response to that is you have to get

them to understand what responsibility is.

252

They can't be held accountable if

they don't know responsibility, and

253

they have to be self responsible.

254

And yet, every day, every human

being goes about their day, buying

255

their coffee, paying their mortgage,

taking their kids to school, and

256

yet at work, that sense of self

responsibility becomes very difficult.

257

And I think there's a lot of unlearning.

258

To put around that that comes, and I

think, I still feel to this very moment

259

that we can't have 21st century business

until we understand self responsibility

260

and we understand accountability.

261

If the world of work is moving away, it

is to become automated for the tasks that

262

no longer require any sense of creativity.

263

The creative tasks only come through.

264

Responsibility and coming from a creative

background, like as an artist, you don't

265

have a boss to tell you to make your art.

266

you make it because You've been

driven through your passion to do it.

267

If you had a boss telling you to

make the art, you wouldn't do it.

268

And so it's a paradox, isn't

269

Laurie Bennett: what kind of keeps fueling

you to keep us aligned to that context?

270

Like why put up with the, the

challenges you've just described?

271

Jeff Melnyk: Beyond my

5:00 PM cocktail hour.

272

Exactly.

273

Yeah, I think that when we come back

to our vision and our purpose and what

274

it is that we're here to do, and when

we get out of our own way of the kind

275

of business we're trying to create and

begin to focus on what we're here for, I

276

think all of us are much more energized

by the impact that we're creating for our

277

clients than what it is that we're doing.

278

Within our business, , we

have to hold an integrity.

279

What we're doing within our business,

our values are important to us,

280

and the checks and balances that

our business infrastructure put

281

in place is, to me very important.

282

But we are not here just to create our

own business, just like no business is.

283

Purpose is just to create itself.

284

We are here in service of our

clients and that to me is the fuel.

285

when I.

286

Get out of my own way and

I go, what is this for?

287

And I connect to the impact we've made

through the past decade of working with

288

amazing brands and amazing leaders.

289

that's when I'm fueled.

290

I feel that in the moment, of

course now too, like, get me

291

working, coaching with a leader.

292

Get me working on their purpose and

their values and that creative spark

293

is the fuel that brings me back.

294

Are you the same?

295

Laurie Bennett: I think, that

is , the reason we began,

296

and it remains true today.

297

Like we both started and said we didn't

want to spend our time managing an agency.

298

That's not what we.

299

Were motivated by, and part of the reason

for thinking about self-management and

300

designing the business the way we did

was to allow us the freedom to continue

301

to do the work that is meaningful to us.

302

But I think there is something about the

integrity of having within operate on our

303

own blueprint for 21st century business.

304

Like if that's the vision that we

hold, we better be doing it too.

305

I think what's been interesting about

that is we've been able to experience

306

some of the real challenge that comes

with going on that journey for ourselves,

307

which I think has been valuable.

308

for me , as well as the kind of,

the impact that we get to translate

309

that into with our clients.

310

There's a real fascination with

solving that challenge with unpicking.

311

Some of the stuff that we can see.

312

The whole of society is struggling with

and seeing if in the microcosm of our own

313

small world, what can we do to address

some of that and how can we start to

314

shape other businesses to do the same?

315

But, it's a rollercoaster.

316

I found there are moments of great

kind of payback and reward and joy You

317

know, yesterday we had the partners,

some of the partners sharing back their

318

personal growth plans for the year,

which is something we do each year.

319

And just every time that happens,

I'm just blown away by how people

320

take responsibility for their

own growth and inspiration.

321

And in doing that, inspire

everyone around them in the team.

322

And there have been moments

where I've wanted to put my.

323

Head under a blanket and keep it

there for a week because sometimes it

324

just feels so difficult to reconcile

the stuff that we're trying to do

325

with what it feels like to do it.

326

And I think the fuel in those

moments comes back from, as you

327

say, kind of remembering why.

328

We set out to do this in the first place

329

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, I think we

don't get to not be in the same

330

world of work as everyone else.

331

So like, we still have to worry about

where the bills are gonna get paid.

332

And like it's 21st century business isn't

paid off of like unicorns and rainbows.

333

Like, we've gotta worry

about those things too.

334

And even things like, When you've been

working with someone for years and then

335

they decide to leave, you still have that

pain of someone's leaving the company.

336

That's something that never goes

away for any leader or any manager

337

is like people leaving is hard.

338

People joining is exciting and

people leaving is hard and I think

339

even acknowledging that that's real.

340

And that's never gonna go away.

341

But how do you do that in a way that

respects the adult organization that

342

we're trying to create and the notion

of freedom And even just being able to

343

notice that like, okay, when people leave,

that's not a failure of any company.

344

That's someone finding their purpose

to go and do what they want to do.

345

It takes quite a bit of resolve to

step into that and be like, I'm sad

346

about this, but it's good for you.

347

And having had people say, that

was my journey and thank you.

348

And here I am now, and you've helped me

find my purpose , to do something next.

349

That's also fueling, even though in

that moment it is deeply upsetting.

350

I don't think that's ever gonna go away.

351

I think that's part of just

being human the notion that you

352

hire people and they'll stay

with you forever is a fallacy.

353

I don't think any business wants

to have, but it doesn't take

354

the human aspect out of it.

355

Laurie Bennett: Yeah.

356

Or the impact that it has on

your own sense of success or

357

failure in what you've built.

358

Yeah.

359

Right.

360

I think it's hard to detach.

361

A sense of judgment from the thing you

made when people seem to be accepting

362

or rejecting it somehow in front of you.

363

and I think for us, there's a trap

when you're building a business that.

364

You are hoping is a kind of space

of example around equity and freedom

365

and the ability for individuals to

be able to find themselves here.

366

When you hear that it doesn't work for

them, it just sounds like, well, clearly

367

we didn't do it right, but I think it's

funny how we still have to be quite

368

clear with ourselves on this is not a

way of working that works for everybody.

369

Maybe one day.

370

That will be closer to the case.

371

But I think part of the challenge that

we've had in growing the number of

372

people who are partners and within is

that not everybody wants this and a

373

lot of people think they want it and

then realize that actually they don't.

374

And I think to be able to take

people on that journey Is kind of a

375

privilege and at the same time it can

be hard to watch as people come in

376

with enthusiasm and sometimes seem to

leave without the same enthusiasm for

377

the thing that is so important to us.

378

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, I think

what resonated for me.

379

From what you're saying, Lori, was

sometimes people think they're gonna

380

thrive somewhere and it takes a while for

them to figure out that that's not gonna

381

be the place that's gonna work for them.

382

But can they learn along the way?

383

Can they take something from there?

384

How are you creating the conditions

for learning, always for people to

385

come in, get what they need to know

about themselves and about what they

386

want, and are you willing to make

that investment as a leader and as a

387

business to take people on that journey?

388

I think that's been something that I'm

proud of, is we've opened the door today.

389

All sorts of different

people to come and thrive.

390

And we've learned from them as much

as they've learned from us, and I

391

think we're getting better at that

and we're not perfect at it, and I

392

hope we continue to learn around that.

393

Laurie Bennett: I think , it's an

interesting place to reflect now

394

as you click into your 10th year.

395

, what success are we feeling?

396

What does success look like for us as

we stand here and look back , what

397

are you seeing as being the things that

you would hold as success for us over

398

the 10 years that we've been at this?

399

Jeff Melnyk: I think you said something

last year around, oh, it's been 10 years,

400

but we are kind of just getting started,

which I think at the time made me feel

401

a deep sense of dread inside my body.

402

But is the truth like, oh, we're just

getting going and I really feel it's

403

that kind of idea of the seeds are

planted and everything is ready to grow.

404

The work we do now is at such a deeper

level with our clients to actually

405

help them see what needs to change

to grow in the way that they want to.

406

That idea of creating the business

that they love so that people can

407

love themselves and love , who

they're and what they do.

408

That really still holds true to me, and

I think The work we're doing now around

409

employee experience and in ensuring we're

embedding equity into everything that

410

people do, but always bringing it back

to purpose and values and cultural d n a.

411

That to me makes me feel really proud.

412

And so the depth of our work, I

think is only gonna continue to

413

grow we've just moved into Asia.

414

That was a very nascent market for us.

415

We weren't sure how people would perceive

the notion of purposeful business there.

416

Meanwhile, Singapore has now

mandated it as being like a thing,

417

like are they gonna jump the curve?

418

Are we needed even more than ever?

419

Do we need to reconsider?

420

what purposeful business

looks like in that context?

421

That is, A feeling of success

for me and also just one of

422

those challenges to step into.

423

What about you?

424

Laurie Bennett: Ah, certainly all of that,

and I think just, over 10 years, there's

425

a quality of relationship that I have.

426

Can kind of look back and think of

the different partners who have been

427

a part of the journey with us and

where many of them find themselves

428

now if they're not still here.

429

the joy that has been had and the

impact that has been made collectively

430

by us and on us, us as partners, feels

like it's less about the destination

431

we find ourselves at here, but the

quality of the journey that we've

432

been on over that last 10 years.

433

If I look at it in those terms, then I

really take success from, that and , I

434

believe that unfortunately we probably

are just getting started, but I think

435

we'll always sort of just be getting

started with the kinds of things that

436

we're working on, and there's always

gonna be more world that needs what we do.

437

So the more we can start to see

our success in what it feels like

438

day-to-day to be running this

business there's something to that

439

Jeff Melnyk: So when we were on the

rooftop in Barcelona, we outlined some

440

feelings of success that were important.

441

We call that our lifestyle vision, but

you and I check in on that all the time.

442

Mm-hmm.

443

Laurie Bennett: Yeah.

444

I think for you and

me, it always has been.

445

I think that's the key, like different

things matter to different people.

446

Every client that we work with has to

answer the question of what success

447

means for them and what growth means for

them, because that's what's important

448

is like, what does it mean for you?

449

To be successful and like in our

case, for us to be successful.

450

I think we're getting to a point now where

we're wondering maybe it would be helpful

451

to have some more of those other success

measures start to get a bit more clarity.

452

got the foundation, I think we both feel

that we need the idea of scaling up.

453

What we do feels really.

454

Timely for us now.

455

But that's a slightly different view

of success than we had on the roof,

456

Jeff Melnyk: I certainly

feel that that's necessary.

457

I do also think that that's something

that our clients are asking, like,

458

what is the next five or 10 years?

459

Because we're in such a period of

uncertainty, the world is constantly

460

asking what's gonna happen next.

461

It's the big question, isn't it?

462

And I think it's interesting for the

notion of 21st century business that

463

if you're playing a long game, that's

a never ending one, and you really

464

wanna make something that's gonna last.

465

Noticing the outcomes you're looking for,

but the feeling you want on the journey,

466

I think is critical , for founders

that just wanna create a business to

467

exit it so that they can make money.

468

I think question yourself

if you're purposeful or not,

469

because that's just about.

470

An outcome that you're

seeing for yourself.

471

That's never been our what we want to see.

472

And I think the businesses that last,

the ones that are playing the long game

473

have been the ones that have created

the balance between the outcomes and the

474

feelings that are gonna take them there.

475

But what would we tell ourselves on

the rooftop of Barcelo if we were

476

gonna go back into Christmas past

be the Ghost of Christmas Past.

477

I think I used that on

another podcast recently.

478

Yeah.

479

Time Travel is my jam right now if we were

gonna be able to go back into 10 years

480

from now, what advice would you give our.

481

Younger but less, better looking.

482

I feel like we've matured

with age very well, Mr.

483

Bennett.

484

Certainly.

485

Laurie Bennett: This is one of the

ones I should have thought about before

486

we started recording the podcast.

487

I think probably just a doubling down on.

488

what I've just said about the journey and

the confidence that you need to sustain

489

you doesn't come from necessarily getting

490

much better or much more

outwardly successful.

491

It comes from committing to the

things that you believe in and

492

finding a way to try to make those.

493

Real in the way that you want

your business to grow and in the

494

way that you want it to serve.

495

And, I think that reassurance that

people will come, people will go,

496

clients will come, clients will

go, and through all of that, we

497

will grow together because of those

things, not kind of in spite of them.

498

Jeff Melnyk: Wisdom.

499

What about you?

500

I think I would say feel the sunshine,

cuz I think that is like, know the

501

sunshine fuels you, which I know is

metaphorical but is also not metaphorical

502

because it is very true of us.

503

We need sun.

504

And that the sun goes to sleep

at night and comes back every

505

day, the sun will rise again.

506

Is a good metaphor for that.

507

And that like, it doesn't always have

to be rosy, but know that the next

508

bout of sunshine is around the corner

is a truth in life and that like,

509

There's the, the dips and troughs of

running a business just don't go away.

510

So you've gotta kind of have

some acceptance around shit

511

gets real and get into it.

512

And also know that there's

joy around every corner.

513

I think we've always tried to infuse

joy into stuff that we do, and that's

514

one of our pillars any strategic

work that we do, that joy doesn't

515

mean that everything needs to be.

516

Unicorns and rainbows all the

time, but sometimes it is.

517

And that's okay.

518

I think we had a concept of that

on the rooftop, but I don't think

519

we had a lived reality of it.

520

And I think that's part of just,

it's the wisdom, of the ages.

521

Laurie Bennett: 10 years to realize.

522

But you get there eventually.

523

I agree.

524

And I think getting to have been

on that rooftop with you and having

525

spent this last 10 years doing

this alongside you, has made this

526

possible and joyful and workable.

527

And that's a thing I celebrate.

528

Jeff Melnyk: Every day.

529

Aw.

530

I celebrate it too.

531

And I agree and I think that being

creative can be a lonely game.

532

And that's why Simon and Garfunkel,

Lennon, McCartney, Ben and Melnick, it's

533

important to have your partner with you.

534

And I think that's, this business

has been a partnership and it

535

starts from our connection.

536

And that's what, that is the fuel.

537

So, love you.

538

Laurie Bennett: Thanks

for listening, everyone.

539

We hope you enjoyed learning about

our journey over the last 10 years.

540

You can tune into our podcast for

more episodes on what's happening

541

in the culture and leadership space.

542

What's on the minds of leaders

committed to change and other

543

future of work content you crave.

544

Re-imagining work from Within is

available wherever you listen to podcasts.