What is Digitalism—and why is it making waves in the art world? As award-winning filmmaker and curator Rebekah Tolley writes in her recent essay “The Rise of Digitalism: A New Movement in Art,” Digitalism explores the intersection of art, culture, and technology in the digital era. Today, Rebekah joins us to unpack the emergence of Digitalism as both a cultural movement and a groundbreaking exhibition that she curated for the British Art Fair in 2024.

Throughout our discussion, Rebekah emphasizes the challenges digital artists face in gaining acceptance within the traditional art world, a struggle reminiscent of photography's early days. She advocates for accessibility and community, aiming to dispel myths and foster an inclusive environment for practitioners of Digitalism. As we look forward to the 2025 Digitalism showcase (Sept. 25 - 28, Saatchi Gallery), it’s clear this movement is more than a trend; it has the potential to redefine expression within the digital realm as we enter a new digital age. 

For more information, please visit https://notrealart.com/rebekah-tolley-digitalism

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Today we have an exciting show.

We have an exciting show.

We're here to talk about digitalism.

Digitalism at the British Art Fair, which is an amazing exhibition by Rebecca Tolle, the award winning filmmaker, artist, curator.

And this show is in its second year at the British Art Fair.

Super exciting.

60amazing artists, pioneers, trailblazers in the digital art space.

And we can't wait to get into this conversation with Rebecca.

So stay tuned for that.

We're going to get into it and I'll tell you more in just a second.

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All right today, today we have the one and only Rebecca.

Totally Rebecca.

My God, her CV is like three pages long.

It's incredible.

I'm going to try to give you the highlights Rebecca Tolle Tolle is an award winning filmmaker, visual and sound artist, curator and educator.

The exhibition also launched Digitalism as a long overdue movement in art, 150 years after the first Impressionist show in Paris and 100 years since the birth of Surrealism.

Subsequently, Rebecca is leading the next edition.

So if you're in the UK around the UK, September 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th by all means please go to the British Art Fair and check out Digitalism curated by Rebecca Tolle.

And just to give you a little sense of what digitalism is, Digitalism at British Art Fair is about the Birth of a Movement, a landmark exhibition within the British Art Fair that is fast becoming one of the most important international platforms for digital art.

Expanding across two of Saatchi's top four galleries, this year's edition will feature around 60 artists spanning photography, video, augmented and virtual reality, artificial intelligence, generative practices, sculpture, robotics and immersive works.

Displays will range from large scale screens and projections to interactive installations with partners Muse, Frame and Sedition helping to integrate digital work seamlessly into the gallery space.

For the first time, the show will also be accompanied by special special music strategy, the Sound of Digitalism crafted by 64Music 64Music people.

How cool is that?

This mix has been designed to complement the pioneering artworks on display, offering visitors an extended sensory layer.

By scanning QR codes placed around the exhibition, audience will be able to experience a musical journey that deepens the connection to the artworks.

I could go on and on, but you know what, let's get into this conversation and hear it from Rebecca herself, because, of course, she's the expert in the house today, and she's just such a delightful, lovely human and artist.

I was just so charmed talking to her and so grateful that she was able to come on the show.

So, without further ado, let's get into this fantastic conversation I had with the one and only Rebecca Tolle.

Rebecca Tolle, welcome to Not Real Art.

Well, Scott, thank you so much.

I am so grateful to have you here.

You.

You're classing up the joint and.

And I. I am thrilled in part because, you know, the name of our podcast is Not Real Art.

And that is a very intentional name.

And it's interesting.

Over the years, I've observ.

Gross artists, it seems, get the joke immediately.

And many established art patrons, collectors, dealers, oftentimes don't get the joke.

I've had collect very, very prominent art professionals say to me, I don't get it.

Not real Art.

What does that mean?

Well, I think I work in a space that, to a lot of people, really still is not real art.

Well, that.

That's right, yeah.

And.

And that's why I bring it up, because digital.

Digital art, I'm guessing, has sort of suffered over the years with that sort of issue of legitimacy, right?

Oh, totally, yeah.

Right, yeah, totally.

Well, I mean, I mean, much like photography, I mean, if you trace the history of photography back then, you know, it's taken a long time for photography to be regarded as a fine art.

Yes, yes.

So, you know, digital art, in a way, is a bit of a baby in that sense.

The history is longer than most people think.

Yes.

You know, I literally meet some people who think it arrived with social media, but I'm at pains to point out that's not quite.

No, no, no, no, not quite.

No, not quite.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, yeah, no, I think anything that challenges people or.

And I think particularly in the age of AI, there's a lot of kickback.

Yes.

Because of the fear around AI.

Well, it feels like.

And I mean, you're the expert.

I'm.

I'm.

I'm just a. I'm just a podcaster.

But the, you know, it feels like, you know, every art movement through history has faces this Face, this issue with the establishment.

Right.

It's like, oh, no, Impressionism, that's not a real art.

You know, surrealism, that's not real art.

Well, I'm glad you brought the Impressionists up because that actually was the starting point of a conversation I had last year when I was looking to put together this first digital art section for British Art Fair in London.

So I gathered together a very prominent team, advisory team of some great luminaries in the field of digital arts.

And we really started that conversation which was around the fact that Last year is 150 years since the birth of Impressionism.

So of course the Impressionists were.

We're saying, well, what's the point in classical art now that photography's here?

You know, why bother with classical art?

Well, of course we know there's space for all art.

Yes, but.

But, you know, it heralded in a new age, a modern age and a different way of looking at the world.

And I think that's always what's so great about art and artists and creatives, whatever your field is, that we're all looking at new ways to express ourselves, reflect on the times that we live in and interpret the world, you know, navigate the world.

So I think that digital art is playing a really important role in that at the moment.

And as I said, you know, a lot of people think that it arrived with AI or social media or whatever, but of course, you know, it's been around since at least, you know, post Second World War.

Yes, yes.

And you know, a very pivotal moments in the 60s, et cetera.

So.

But it's still regarded as very much a new.

A new movement.

Yes.

And.

Right.

And I mean, there's just so much to unpack here.

And you know, I'm tempted to sort of go down this philosophical conversation about, you know, why that is and the various nuances of it, et cetera, et cetera, and we'll get there.

But I think that for.

For the sake of our listeners, we should.

That's a huge validation.

You didn't scare them off.

The.

No, we didn't.

A huge success is very telling.

But this all started because somebody called Will, Will Ramsey, who started the Affordable Art Fairs and many of your listeners might know about.

Yeah, love, love the Affordable Art Fairs.

Yes, yeah, they're all over the place.

Wonderful.

They're Great.

He built an empire with that.

Will has this great sort of boast really, that he owns more art fairs than anyone else in the world.

And we just got into conversation about digital art, which culminated in me visiting his house, which, as you can imagine, is groaning with art inside and out.

Yes.

It's quite his place.

And the Vatican.

Yes, right.

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Right.

But what I really didn't expect was that he actually had a few really interesting pieces of digital art.

And so I just don't like to presume anything.

And I started to talk to him in that fashion and then he said, I know nothing about digital art.

He said, I just collect what I like.

That's right.

And I said, well, that's the only way to collect.

That's right.

So he said, you seem to know a lot.

And I said, well, I've been around it for a while.

So it planted a seed in his head.

Very long story short, he invited me to put together the first digital art section at British Art fair in its 36 year history.

So just to give some context, British Art Fair is the biggest fair in the uk, internationally renowned, and of course it celebrates the very best of contemporary traditional art.

Yes.

So this was a real departure for them.

So I had to present to the board of the British Art Fair, so.

No stress.

So.

So after quite a lengthy presentation, they were very generous and very kind and just said, yes, we have to do this.

Yes.

So we had a massive turnout, upwards of 14,000 people in four days.

And the wonderful thing was, I think one of the best comments I heard actually, because there were people of all ages came to the show and of course largely expecting to just to see what they normally see at British Art Fair.

And when older gentlemen came up to me and said, I was fully prepared to come in here and hate it and I absolutely love it.

Best compliment ever.

Right?

Like that's it.

That says everything.

Yeah, Best compliment ever.

And I think it's just.

I think, Scott, the important thing for me was it's a couple of things that.

Because I feel that digital art has largely been in its own echo chamber for a very long time.

Yes.

That I actually wanted to give digital art that kind of equal platform that it obviously hasn't had and put it alongside the best of contemporary traditional.

And because at the end of the day, it's just art.

It's all Art.

It'S all expression, it's all.

They're all.

It's all stories.

Yeah, it's all stories.

So.

So instead of separating it all out, it's just to give it an equal platform and to.

In the.

And I mean this in the least patronizing way possible, is to educate people about digital art.

Yes.

And what it can.

What it is and what it can be.

Yes.

And I think we certainly achieved that last year.

So this year I'm the victim.

Victim of my own success, or collective success.

Be careful what you wish for, Rebecca.

I know.

So we've got twice as twice the size of show this year.

So I've got upwards of almost 60 artists presenting all sorts of different kind of work under this banner of digitalism, which I must say.

So that was the other thing last year that me and my lovely advisory team said, well, look, you know, we've got this opportunity, so why not make it a moment rather than.

Here's a section of digital art.

So talking about the impressionists, as we were.

The other thing, obviously, Last year was 100 years since the birth of Surrealism, which of course resonates very well with AI artists in particular.

Yes.

So we decided that we would define the movement because digital arts has never really been defined as a movement.

When I started it was electronic arts and then it was multimedia new media.

Um, but it didn't really encompass everything that people were doing.

And of course, now it's so broad.

So it was actually.

And I have to shout out, lol Sargent, who is a senior lecturer at the Royal College of Art in London, who is.

Who.

Who became my wingman last year.

He, He.

He actually coined the term because he referred.

He.

He was already referring to his students at the Royal College as digitalists.

Yes.

So we all agreed that that was the perfect umbrella, if you like, for all these wonderful and disparate kinds of work and that we would, you know, create this moment.

And the other thing is as well.

I love joining.

I love joining dots, Scott.

I love, I love, I love a bit of joining at the dot.

Yes.

And we, we.

We started our conversation.

Conversation by asking ourselves, what was the last iconic moment in British art that we could all agree on?

And it was Charles Saatchi's show.

And it's what launched the likes of Damien Hirst on the international stage, because, of course, he'd already discovered them at least a decade before, but they weren't known internationally at that point.

So it was the YBAs, the young British Artists.

That's regarded as the last movement, actually, in art.

So we thought, well, hello, we're at the Saatchi Gallery now, so why don't we.

Yes.

Join some dots up here.

Come full circle.

10, full circle.

Oh, wow.

Andy Altman.

And persuaded him to design the COVID of our catalog.

You're very persuasive, Rebecca.

This is part of the thread here.

I just, you know, I just.

I thought it made sense.

So.

Yeah, so I think that was also a conversation with the Laurel Surgeon.

So Andy.

Andy is part of a creative agency called why Not Associates.

And I mean, they do.

They do work with Apple tv, et cetera, now, and posters and catalog covers are kind of below their pay grade.

But he very kindly said, yes, I'll do it.

This is great.

Amazing.

Amazing, isn't it?

How.

Isn't it beautiful how generous artists are and can be, but certainly when they share a vision, I mean, we just can't help ourselves.

We're.

We're.

Yes.

People.

It's like our problem is saying no.

We.

We need to say no more.

It's very true, actually.

I have a very hard time saying no.

Lack of sleep follows.

No to sleep, yes to work.

Right.

So.

So, yeah, so this year, as I say, we're a bigger show.

We're kind of really on people's radar now.

And I think.

I think it's just.

It's very exciting.

But on a serious note, I think I've said to all of the artists, I think that it's incumbent on all of us at the moment to put a bit of light back out into the world.

And also that great saying, when societies crumble, artists get to work.

And I really feel like that right now.

Yes.

And I think that we, you know, we are the commentators on the time that we live in, but.

But we're also an antidote right now, I think.

Yes.

So I think a lot.

I think a lot of artists have really embraced that, and we intend to bring a lot of joy to a lot of people.

I love it.

I love it.

I love it.

More joy, please.

More delight, More.

More charm, Please talk a little bit about the stories that.

What story are you trying to tell?

Obviously you have 60 artists telling 60 different stories, you know, on a certain level, but but, but talk about the story that you want to tell this year versus the story you wanted to tell last year.

Ooh, okay.

I think as I said last year, it was about giving a platform to digital art in a way that it hasn't had.

I'm one of those people that's been to the festivals over the year, over the years like ours, Electronica in Austria, you know, a lot of these, we're the same crowd, just going to the same events.

Yes.

But I wanted to bring it to a much wider audience and, and as I say, educate people and, and not turn people off.

I had somebody actually, I think one of the tech, one of the tech people that helped set up the show and I obviously wouldn't name any names, but he's, he said to me, oh yeah, did you learn?

Well, computers do it all for you, don't they?

Oh boy, that's not boy.

And I went, boy.

I said, I said, is that like standing in front of a canvas with a, with a palette of paints and some paintbrushes?

Does it do it all for you?

Yeah, right.

And, but you know, but that's, that's okay because people just need to be led into it and just shown.

Right.

You know, so I'm not about, I'm not about telling anyone off because they don't get it.

I want to invite people into the conversation and I think for me that is a continuation of that and they're broadening out this year.

But also one of the things I'm really, really passionate about is that I give a platform to artists who would otherwise not have it.

Yes.

I've got artists in the show who are influencers with half a million followers whose posts are going nutty viral right now.

Sharon Stone's been sharing.

We love Sharon, but I've also got artists who got like a couple of hundred followers and, but are fantastic and deserve the platform.

You know, I go on, I'm kind of experiential and then I kind of get down to organizing.

So I, I, I go with my gut.

So in terms of who I'm bringing into this conversation, so I want to give an equal platform to, to those artists who would never normally have the opportunity to be on a platform like this and be alongside some, you know, really well established or new very successful artists.

So, and, and I, I also want to tell the story of digital arts, which means having artists in the show, that's span that history.

Because I don't want, I don't just want the new kids on the block.

I want People who are going to tell the story.

And I can neatly, neatly bring in at this point a couple of those.

So I've got.

And I'm sure you won't mind me saying, He's 70 years old, an artist by the name of Vitaly V, who's was originally born in Odessa when Ukraine was part of the ussr.

He's had the most extraordinary life and he makes these extraordinary paintings.

Paintings, physical paintings that are based on microchips and huge 3D printed sculptures which are extraordinary.

Amazing, amazing.

And then we have.

And then we have a trio of lovelies.

The original Quantel paint box artist.

Yes, yes, yes.

I was so delighted to see that when you sent it to me.

Oh, my goodness, what a get.

I know, what a get.

I know.

So I was lucky enough to meet one of their chief craziest, Adrian Wilson, who's.

He was allowed from Manchester and in England, who went to an art college in the early 80s where a quantile paint box had been donated to the college.

Because these systems are so expensive.

Yes.

That they couldn't.

They realized, I think they had to train up some people on these things because they were so expensive.

Right.

So NBC in America bought 12 of them and I think they were a quarter of a million dollars each then.

Ye.

So Adrian took to it like a duck to water, learnt it back to front and he was.

He's virtually one of the world's first digital paint artists.

And of course all of that launched mtv.

Yes.

So paint boxes all over mtv in terms of graphics, Dire Straits, money for nothing.

Yep.

All of the, all of the iconic albums you can think of, like Nirvana.

It took me back.

It took me back to my.

My youth.

Rebecca.

When I saw, when I saw the video you sent me, I said, oh my God, I'm 13 again.

It's fantastic.

Wasn't it fab?

It was amazing.

So, yes.

So there's Adrian Wilson, Kim Manus Abbott and Mica Riz.

Mica Reese, who's.

He's California based, Emmy award winner, worked with David Bowie and Rolling Stones.

Oh, I love that.

How great.

When it was paintbox was invented.

Yeah.

So it's exciting.

So, yeah.

Kim helped launch MTV Europe.

Yeah, it is, it is.

Totally takes you back, doesn't it?

Made me feel quite emotional, actually.

Well, well, yeah, but I mean.

But part of what?

Part of when I saw that And I was thinking about our talk, and I was so excited to meet you and have you on, but when I saw that and I was just remembering, like, wow.

I never thought about the fact that I actually grew up with digital art.

Like, digital art is the art of my journey as a young person growing up in the world.

Me too.

Me too.

Absolutely.

And so many.

And I'm.

I'm excited for people who will come to the show.

So it'll be young people who are completely new to it and hopefully be really curious.

Yes.

But then for a lot of people, it's going to be, oh, my God, it's them, and it's that.

And it's like, wow.

And this is still really cool.

I don't have to be on drugs.

This is great.

This.

Stands up sober.

This is great.

No, no, I'm super excited.

I'm super excited.

And, and, and it's lovely because they're equally as excited, which is really lovely.

Absolutely.

No, I can.

I can just sense and would have guessed that certainly anybody involved with this is just so enthusiastic and so bought in and so all in, you know, because the time has come, right?

I mean, these were so many of the artists that you're working with and are part of the show.

Were.

Are the trailblazers.

Right?

They're the pioneers.

And so they.

They saw it well before.

And part of the curse of being an artist, right, is that you're ahead of your time and the world is so damn slow, and you just are frustrated because you.

Why don't you understand this?

Why don't you see this?

Why don't you, you know, and.

And so artists bring us along, and they have to be so patient and kind and gentle with us dummies who are, you know, who don't maybe get it.

And, And, But.

But here we are now, right?

You know what I mean, 30 years later, whatever.

And the time has come.

The world has, I guess, met up on some level with the art form.

And so, of course, so many of the trailblazing pioneer artists that you have want to lean in and help and support and be all in with you, because finally the world sees them.

Yeah, I think so.

And I think I was talking to a curator actually in Switzerland in June.

So that's when Art Basel was on.

And I was talking to her, and she's involved in digital arts.

And she said she came to the show at the Saatchi last year, and she just said, you know, it's amazing that you've.

You.

You've been able to do this.

And you're giving artists this platform, but importantly, in such a beautiful venue.

Venue.

Because she said, you know, you've been around this long enough.

We're always in not the best venues.

We're always over there.

Yeah.

In.

Down the stairs, in the basement.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, and it was kind of, it was kind of like that in, in, in Basel, because they had nothing to do with Art Basel.

A few streets away, there was a brilliant four day digital arts conference with an exhibition, great exhibition, great artists, but in ubiquitous kind of venues.

And I thought, well, this is Switzerland.

Like, this is like, expect the best.

And that's no disrespect because the curators of that are fantastic.

It was a great show.

And I would not, of course, of course, in the slightest.

But I got what this other curator was saying.

She said, you know, we never get to be in such beautiful venues, you know, and to be in such a prestigious venue.

So I think that, you know, I'm grateful because I think Will had the foresight to see that this is a direction that he needed to take the art fair in.

And he entrusted me.

Thanks, Will.

Will.

Shout out, Will.

To do it.

Yes.

To do it, yes.

Isn't that amazing?

Let's talk about Will for a bit.

Isn't that an amazing truth about life?

Because, you know, we talk about how important timing is, and that timing is so important.

And part of that is because it takes time to meet the right people.

Right.

Like whether it's your life partner, romantic partner that you want to hang out with.

It might take a lot of time to find that special someone.

But when it comes to business or art, to find that partner, to find that collaborator, it's a magical moment.

And, and that's, you know, so that was the sort of, you know, this rendezvous that you and Will had.

I mean, it was a one plus one equals ten kind of experience, you know.

Yeah, no, it really was.

And obviously totally unexpected for both of us.

Sure.

But I think I'm just really.

I'm grateful that he obviously saw in me the fact that he thought she might be able to pull this off.

Right.

I think, because he knows how difficult these things are.

I mean, you know, for sure.

Yes, she is.

He knows his space inside and out.

Yes.

So I think, you know, when he originally asked me to put a proposal together, the lovely thing was, and I'm sure he won't mind me saying this, the very first time we sat down and I actually presented my proposal for what was gonna become the digitalism show, he said, at the end of it, he said, if my chair had springs on it, I'd be jumping up and down now.

Right now.

He was really excited.

I love that.

So.

Which is really lovely.

And I think he was very gracious.

And, you know, when we opened last year, I was just in the one gallery, and I was.

I was talking to some of the artists, and then all of a sudden, I had a nudge in the elbow, and he gave me a glass of bubbly and said, you did it.

Oh, brilliant.

So, yeah, no, he's.

He's great.

And he.

I. I think what I really like about Will as well is you can discuss things with him and give him your point of view, and he'll always listen.

He.

He isn't somebody that goes, well, I know best, and that's it.

Right, right.

He will listen to you, and he will respect what you've got to say.

Yes, well, that's.

And that's.

And that's what great leaders do.

Right?

I mean, great.

Great leaders listen and.

And.

And respect and all those things.

Right?

Yeah, no, absolutely.

And also, let's get on with it.

Yeah, Right, right.

Trust and then get out of the way.

Right.

Like, let's define.

Let's define what success looks like.

Let's be clear about our goals and our strategy, whatever.

But then let me just get out of the way, and you go.

I trust you to go.

Do.

Go do it.

Yeah, yeah.

And he did.

And I, you know, and I. I respect that because that's how I work.

While we're on our topic or kind of talking about the importance of good partners, talk a little bit about Muse, Frame and Sedition and their role in this as a partner in Digitalism.

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, Muse and Sedition, who are now partnered up officially.

Oh, they're the.

Oh, interesting.

They've merged.

Oh, great.

Because it's a merge.

It's a merge.

Oh, wonderful.

It's a recent merge.

Okay, breaking news.

We're right here on Not Real Art.

You heard it first, people.

They came in last year as one of our official partners, and they're coming back again.

Yeah.

No, so Muse frames are these.

Gorgeous.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think they.

They started around the fact with Sedition of saying, well, you know, artwork is sold framed or unframed traditionally, so why not digital art?

Yep.

So this is why they refer to them as frames.

So they're not TV screens.

Yes, yes, yes.

So I think that they've just brought out or bringing out a new iteration which.

Which are actually wooden frames.

So but no, they're just beautiful high end screens that, that they generously are allowing a number of our artists to have their work displayed on, which is fantastic, you know, so we're very grateful to have them on board as we are all our partners.

So we have Meadow, which is augmented reality app, which launched last year as well.

So they're coming back.

We've got 17 augmented reality artists showing cutting edge work.

So cool.

And then I just had to shout out, we got 64 music who are music curators for film television and they've created the sound of digitalism.

So they've created a soundtrack so you can literally go around the show with your headphones on and just experience the show like that, with their music.

That's so.

It's very fun, Very fun.

We had a lot of fun collaborating on that to come up with the perfect, perfect soundtrack.

But they've done it.

Rebecca, save for the exhaustion and the fatigue, congratulations on finding your dream job.

I mean, like this.

This, right?

Like what a dream job for an artist like you and a curator like you and for many artists and curators out there in the world.

You got, you got the dream job.

Well, you know, I say that to myself.

It's, it's, you know, and I also say to myself that everything that I've done, you know, I've worked in documentary filmmaking, worked with one of the real greats of British documentary filmmaking as well.

It was my mentor, Michael Grigsby, extraordinary human being.

And I worked in corporate television and interactive.

I worked with the BBC, I've worked with the United Nations.

I've done all sorts of different things and worked as an artist and all of these things have just kind of collided really to.

Because everything I do is drawn from everything I've done.

So.

Yes.

So if I'm not doing my artwork, the best next thing.

And I've worked in education as well, so that really helps is to facilitate other artists.

Yes.

And really help them and amplify them.

And it really gives me joy.

And I mean, I get to speak to artists every day.

Yes, yes, yes.

I get to meet new artists every day all around the world.

And there are lots of love.

So many artists to meet.

I mean, it just.

So many.

So many, so many.

It's so inspiring for me, you know, it motivates me, you know, and it challenges me in my own practice.

Yes.

So.

But yeah, and it never gets old.

Right.

Well, it can't.

Right.

Because, you know, artists, such an artist are such a dynamic species that it's constantly evolving you know, I mean, this guy, I had a conversation the other day, somebody said something about, well, are they, we were talking about an artist and, or talking about, I don't know, something came up about emerging artists.

Yeah.

You know, and there's this, you know, I think assumption that an emerging artist is a young artist early in their career.

And that's kind of a conventional, maybe a very conventional conservative kind of idea.

But I said to them, I said, well, any artist worth their salt is always emerging.

They're, they're emerging from yesterday, they're emerging from last year.

Like they're constantly evolving.

Yeah, I, I agree.

Absolutely.

And I was, I was having this exact conversation on the weekend with some artist friends of mine and we were going, we were talking about the fact that, you know, you're applying for funding this, that, this, that, and there's this thing where it's emerging artists, mid career artists, established artists.

And we go, well, what does this mean?

And also it's discrimination.

Right, of course.

Well, that, that's the, that's the, that's the art, the so called art market, the art gallery, the capitalist talking, you know, at some level.

Right, Totally.

Yeah, totally.

And I, and I, I want to say, well, I want to firmly plant my flag to say I am so anti elitist in the arts, I'm so anti establishment.

I'm not interested.

This is why I want to give a platform to, yes.

All sorts of different kinds of artists, all ages.

I'm not interested how old you are.

I'm not interested how long you've been in this game.

I'm just interested in what you got to say.

That's right.

That's right.

And how, and yes.

And how you make me feel.

Have you moved me?

Absolutely, yes, absolutely.

I think the other thing as well, that if you look at AI Art and you know, that is really only one.

Yes.

One facet of digital arts.

You know, I don't want to, I don't want to talk too much about that because there's a lot of emphasis on it.

Well, but, okay, but Rebecca, let me interrupt you just for a second.

Don't forget that thought.

But, but just for the sake of our listeners, talk about.

Yes, you're right.

Like AI is just one facet, one aspect of this idea of digital art.

What are the other?

Let's just kind of clarify and define what some of the other kind of aspects.

Digital art, like I'm guessing VR, AR.

I mean, can I take us through that?

Yes, yeah.

There's all of the above.

It's Poor.

How long have you got?

No, you.

You don't have to be comprehensive or exhaustive.

Well, I mean, look, it's anything that involves any kind of digital manipulation or collaboration or reflection.

Like.

I mean, I've just talked a bit for Tali V, who.

Who.

Who's a painter.

Yes.

But he's referencing the digital world that we all live in.

So it could be sculpture.

We had interactive bronze sculptures last year that were full of touch sensors.

Amazing.

And which, when you.

So it was all to do with the disconnect in the digital age.

So when you touch these beautiful.

They were beautiful sort of amorphous shapes on stands and if you had.

It had a VR element as well.

So you put a VR headset on, you put your hand on one of them, they vibrate.

More people put their hands on.

They vibrate.

But the VR element is that they will see your heat from your handprint, but also the perfect quantum entanglement, because there were three of them.

So if you left one in London, put one in la, put one in Tokyo, if whichever one you touch, the other two will know straight away.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Yes.

Mind blowing.

Yes.

So, yeah, so there's that.

That.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

And.

And.

And also last year we had a fantastic artist, Cecily Wagner Falconstrum, who's.

Who's a.

Who was, I think, was the first blockchain artist in space.

Not her physically, obviously, but she.

She did this fantastic project which was about mental health in the digital age.

So she was looking at the tech workers at the bottom of the food chain and then drew a thread back to the Jacquard loom, workers of the Industrial Revolution who were losing limbs in their daily job.

And she.

She put all of her research into AI, had a conversation about it.

AI started to produce imagery based on her research.

So then she took all that image imagery, worked on it, composited it into one massive piece of work, which she then output on a Jacquard loom.

So it was a big tapestry.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Oh, my God.

So there's that.

There's that.

Right, right, right.

So, people.

Are you getting the point here?

That we're making?

It is a spectrum.

Yes.

It's so vast.

Yeah.

It's so.

I can't even.

Yes, but that's the.

That's the joy of it.

Yes.

Yes.

Well, I didn't mean to derail you.

Please go back to your.

Because we were.

You were going to say something really smart.

I know about this.

A. I think.

Damn it, I. I shouldn't have interrupted you.

It'll come back.

It'll come back.

It'll come back.

But there's so much hype and whatever.

Hype and just energy around AI these days.

Yes, there is.

Good, bad and indifferent.

And, you know, so much of it is like just that, hype and hyperbole, but then there's so much power and energy and excitement and opportunity with it as well.

And, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

And you have reminded me what I was going to say.

It's all right.

What I was going to say is that, look, the artists that I've got in this show, the ones that are AI artists, they are working at such a high level.

I mean, this is not just a chatgpt prompting.

Right, right.

This, this is philosophy, math, science.

It's, it's, it's extraordinary the level of skill these people have.

I say to people, look, I come from a fine art background.

I was a fine art undergrad, I was a digital postgraduate, so I travel both worlds and I can have conversations all day long about either.

Yes.

So I say they are as skilled as anybody that's been studying painting for years.

Yes.

So that's just fact.

That's just fact.

I think the thing about kickback.

Oh, AI, this is so dangerous.

It's going to take over everything.

Look, none of us can comment because we don't know where it's going.

Of course we can comment.

We have.

Have our views on it.

But I think at the end of the day, look, artists have only ever responded to the times in which they live.

And this is what's happening with AI.

Artists are using this tool or these sets of tools like they have for time.

Since the caves, since the printing press, they've always used the tools available to them.

And that's all that these artists are doing now, is that it's a lens on the world, it's an interpretation of the times that we live in.

And that's art, and it should be.

So, you know, that we don't.

As I said, we don't know where it's going.

Nobody does.

And as with the advent of the Internet, good and bad came out of that.

Right, so.

Right.

You know.

Well, and so did fire.

So did so.

So did fire.

Of course.

Right, of course.

Fire good.

Fire good.

Fire bad.

You summed it up perfectly, Scott.

You got it.

You nailed it.

All right.

But it's true.

We don't, you know, we can choose to see the world through a really negative lens, or we can choose to see or interpret the world, reflect it as we see it, whether that's good or bad.

And that's what we do because we commentate on the times that we live on.

And that might be the external world, but it might be the internal world or it might be both.

And it all might be a simulation.

We don't know.

I think it is.

I think we can safely say we are living in the Matrix.

Yes, yes, yes.

I'm totally down with that.

Well, the only.

Since you brought it up.

Yeah, the.

The only way I've been able to make sense of what's going on in the world right now is.

Is.

Is I've gotten to a point where I was like, okay, the only way I can make sense of this is that we actually have been invaded by superior life forms.

They have assimilated among us and they have taken all of our money and they have all that.

They built all the technology that has controlled our minds, but somehow they're stuck here, which is why they're trying to build rockets back to Mars.

And they're on the spectrum because of course, they're not going to be fully human because it'd be a little bit off.

And so, I mean, you look at Zuckerberg or Bezos or Musk or Altman, it's like they don't really look human.

I mean, they look human, but it looks a little off.

Anyway, the other one, the other great one I heard the other day, I heard on a podcast the other day, I burst out laughing.

They said this whole thing about being a simulation.

What if it is just a game, right?

And the authors kind of set it up, but then got bored with it and walked off and forgot about it.

Oh, my God.

And it's all gone wrong.

And then they've come back and gone, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, shit.

How do we turn this off?

How do we write the shit?

There's no off button.

There's no off button.

Oh, my God, that's amazing.

I love that.

I love that.

That explains it.

That's another very, very plausible.

How I forgot about that.

Oh, hang on a minute.

Oh, it's that game we put together.

What's happening?

So I have a question for you that is more related to the whole digital art movement that you are helping to lead.

And in such a core, dare I say, influencer.

Sorry if that's a dirty word.

You're a leader.

You're a founder, producer, curator, expert.

But then I saw an article the other day.

I guess it was an art news or something.

Sotheby's, I guess, closed their digital art division, and I guess that was about.

Oh, they figure they can't make money on it.

I mean, I don't know what that.

But I mean, where do you feel that?

I guess I'm setting.

Saying that to set this up, which is like, where do you think the art world writ large is?

I mean, obviously Will and the British Art Fair are visionaries and leaders and ahead of their time and are really leaning in and creating the space for these artists and for you and for these stories.

But what is your sense of the art world writ large and vis a vis digitalism?

Well, I think.

I think the closure of such a department, I think obviously it reflects maybe a volatility in the market, but I think that's across lots of markets right now.

But I don't think it diminishes the significance of digital art in any way, shape or form.

And I think for that reason, I think what we're doing is even more important.

And I think so much of it is about really bringing people into the conversation and showing people that this is a valid art form and it is something that you can take home if you want to in many different ways.

So I.

It doesn't concern me because I think we are leading the charge, if you like, and because I do think there's a lot of misunderstanding in terms of what.

Yes.

What this world is, you know, So I think that that's one of the things I'm really passionate about.

I mean, I've been an educator for a very long time, you know, undergraduate postgraduate educator.

And I.

To me, it's key.

You know, education is key.

And.

And as I say, I don't mean that in a patronizing manner.

I mean it in a very welcoming manner, and please come and talk to us.

And I think, you know, that was born out last year.

I said to the artist before we opened, I said, you know, a lot of you guys.

And I know this myself because I've done many hours of it myself.

We are.

We're.

We're like lone agents, you know, in rooms making work, being.

And.

And a lot of you have big followings, but being in front of thousands of people talking about what you do is going to be a very different experience for you.

And it was.

And it blew them away, you know, because it was that human interaction.

So I think that's it as well.

For me, it's about digital art doesn't mean separation.

It's about bringing people together.

It's about having discourse.

And it is like all great art.

And as I've said, it's about reflecting the times that we live in and.

But also being an antidote.

I really do feel very strongly about art being an antidote also to the times that we live in.

Yes.

And I think that, you know, humans need art.

They just do.

They do.

It's fundamental.

It's not a luxury.

It's not a luxury.

It's fundamental.

No, it really isn't.

And I'm glad you said that, because that is the word.

It isn't a luxury.

It's vital.

It's vital to us.

Have you ever read the book Orbiting the Giant hairball by Gordon MacKenzie?

No, I have not.

You have not?

Okay.

I'm writing it down.

So, yeah.

Orbiting the Giant Hairball.

Isn't that a great name?

That is great.

So Gordon McKenzie.

And, you know, some of our listeners are probably sick of me bringing this up, because I just.

I talk about this book a lot, but Gordon McKenzie was the chief creative officer for the.

For Hallmark cards.

Okay, okay.

And so, you know, he worked.

He's an artist.

As chief creative officer, he's an artist.

Right.

But he's working in this bureaucratic corporate space.

Space.

And so Orbiting the Giant Hairball, which isn't a big book.

It's a wonderful, short, easy read, essentially, fundamentally, is about, you know, I think, how do you maintain your artistic integrity when you're working in this.

Working for the man in this corporate kind of space.

And.

But he.

He told this really poignant story about, you know, because he would go as part of his arts practice, as part of giving back, et cetera, he would go and he would talk to school kids.

And he said in the book he was telling, he was.

I always start my talks with the same question, and that question is the following.

Who here is an artist?

And as the story goes, he said in kindergarten, every kid raises their hand, right?

And you know where this is going, right?

And he said, first grade, half the kids.

By third grade, he said, there's like one kid in the back sheepishly raising their hands, identifying themselves as an artist.

And I just had my heart broke, and I.

A bit of a tear in my eye when I heard that.

That is such a tragic story, because not only do we all need art, I mean, as children, we all know we're artists.

Yeah, it's so true.

It's so true.

I remember my earliest creative act.

I must have been about three years old, but I remember it really vividly.

And I mean, my parents, to be fair to them, I was one of seven children.

So it was probably more a case of she's entertaining herself, she's fine.

I could always entertain myself.

But they just said, do what makes you happy.

But I do remember my careers master at school, at my high school saying to me, oh, Rebecca, what is it that you want to do, you know, in life as a career?

And I said, I want to be an artist.

And he just looked at me and he just sort of smirked and he just sort of went, no, but really, what do you want to be?

Oh boy, oh boy.

So, yeah, me being me, I do love to, I do love to prove people wrong in a sense of, you know, going to do something.

Mission accomplished, my friend.

You should call that counselor back and say, yeah, who won that one?

But you know what?

Seriously, you know, and I think arts education is, is fundamental.

And I think that, you know, it's, it, it's been crushed in a lot of way, you know, in primary education and I'd say that in the UK as well.

And I think that it's about, see, like you say, seeing the value of it.

We absolutely need it.

It is fundamental.

Well, because, because you and I both know, right, that at the end, like, I mean, look, everybody's on their own journey of education, of learning and what have you.

And, but, but the majority of folks sort of think about art in a very one dimensional way and that is like, oh, art is an image, art is an object, art is something that's in a museum, that kind of thing.

And you and I both know, and artists will be the first to say that, you know, art is about seeing like, like, like, like, you know, how many artists have told me, well, yeah, you know, art school taught me how to see, of course, right.

And, and, and, and it's that like, that is what art is.

It's a, it's a way of seeing absolutely, like a set of muscles or nerves that are developed over time that if, if those kids in kindergarten had been taught, you know, art, not just how to make art, but how to, you know, design thinking or just creative expression.

It's like this nervous system is gonna just be different 20 years on and they're gonna see the world differently, of course.

Well, look, I, you know, I think I've said to students over the years, many times when people have said to them, oh, you know, art isn't a thing.

It's, I've said, have a look at absolutely everything in your life.

Everything you sit on, you wear, you get out the fridge, you know, somebody's designed it.

Yes, you are surrounded by art whether you think you are or not.

Yes, yes, yes.

Your life revolves around, you know, you.

Like those sneakers you're wearing, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

You like your iPhone.

Yes, that's right.

That's right.

That's right.

So, I mean, yeah, I know it's, it.

Well, and I bring that, I bring this up in part because I had a conversation not too long ago with a friend of mine who's a very prominent, successful defense attorney and mostly white collar crime.

But, but he was saying to me, he said, man, I just, you know, I wish I, I could be more creative.

And I said, what are you talking about?

I said, you're creative all the time.

I said, you have to find.

And by the way, those constraints of the law.

I mean, you know, it's easy to be creative when you don't have any constraints, but when you start bringing constraints like the law and you're having to thread the needle and find the, the one loophole or the one thing that's going to help you to win your case, like, that's, that's how to.

That's seeing you're looking, you're.

You're creating.

Yes, of course.

And I think that's it.

Anybody who says they're not creative people are creating all day, every day, all day.

As soon as they open, open their eyes in the morning.

Let's make some coffee.

Yes.

Or tea.

Excuse me.

We're creating all day long, right?

Yes, yes, yes.

So good or bad, whether it's that monkey in your.

Monkey in your brain that's sitting on your shoulder telling you all sorts of nonsense or whether you were intentional, you know, we, I, I am a believer that we, we create the worlds we invent the worlds that we inhabit.

Totally believer in that.

So people are creating all day long, you know, so.

That's Right.

Be careful what you wish for.

Ah, yes.

The blessing and curse of being an artist.

Oh, my goodness.

Oh, my goodness.

Well, you know, it's.

It's.

I think, I think like a lot of people, you know, I think I considered myself.

It's like living like an artist.

Feast or famine.

But would I want to be anything else?

No.

Well, I don't think you have much of a choice.

I mean, Right.

I mean, that's, that's the truth, right.

Of being an artist.

It's like you kind of don't have a choice.

No, you don't.

No, you don't.

It's, it's, it's.

It's what you are, who you are and how you navigate the world.

So.

Yes.

And when my third grade art teacher told my parents, my dad, who was an electrician and my mom who worked in a medical office, when my third grade art teacher told my parents, oh, Scott's got great talent.

You should get him some, you know, with a teacher and blah, blah, blah.

And they said, oh, no, that's just a phase.

That's not a real job.

You know, that's not a real job.

That's not a real job.

I know.

And how many kids over, Rebecca, I.

Could have been in your show.

I would have been a genius.

I would have been at the British Art Fair.

There's still time.

Oh, okay.

Okay, good.

I'll get on it.

There's still time.

Hope.

Hope.

Well, I'll tell you, I am really.

I am so grateful, Rebecca, that we were able to get together and do this, and I'm so grateful to meet you.

And now hopefully I can call you my friend.

I know that sounds.

That's a bit of a stretch, maybe, given the fact we've only known each other an hour, but this is so wonderful.

And yet it's also bittersweet because the sweet part is obvious.

The bitter part is that I can't be there at the show.

And many of our listeners may not be able to be there at the show.

How can we?

Is there a way for us to experience the show from afar?

Yes, there is.

So what I would say, so if you go to my Instagram page, shout out.

Okay.

And that is.

Well, I'm just, you know, making it easy.

Yeah.

So my Instagram.

Rebecca Tolley, Digitalist.

Imagine that.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, imagine that.

Little, Little.

Little on the nose, Rebecca.

But go ahead.

So that's my.

And so a lot of the artists that are in the show have been posting, and it's.

It's through my page, so they're making me collaborate.

Many more to come this week as we run up to the opening.

But also whilst the show is on four days, four very long but magical days, we will be posting like crazy.

And there will be lots of documenting the show and looking at the show and interviews and stuff.

So, yeah.

So please come and have a look because there's some really exciting things going on.

And.

And I'm just.

I'm just really grateful to all of the artists and galleries.

I've got two galleries in the show, but really grateful to all of them for trusting me to do this, to come and be part of this.

And, you know, I have artists returning from last year, which is, I think, hopefully testament to how it went for them.

Yes.

And I feel like we're building a community and, you know, to promote digitalism as a movement, to really give a name to it and that we.

We just sit alongside all of the other movements and all of the other forms of expression that are out there.

So, you know, we're inviting everybody to the party.

Yay.

We love a good party.

And you know, and just, just, I. I want to give people a voice.

And I think, you know, in the times that we live in, when people maybe feel they don't have a voice, whether that's on a personal level or a collective, social, socially collective level, I think things like this matter.

So.

Yes.

You know, they matter so much.

Well, so, okay, that's wonderful.

How do we.

And you know, you're gonna.

If you could, if you could reach through the screen right now and punch me, you're gonna do this because you're just trying to survive and get through this next couple of weeks.

But, but I have to ask you, like, when is digitalism going on the road?

Coming to la?

How can we bring this to la?

Well, that's a good question.

I'm really keen that we broaden this out.

And so now you've asked that question.

Gonna have a squirrel.

A conversation with Will.

Well, you let Will know, and not that he cares or needs it, but you have a friend in LA and we would love to be support in any way, because I think the show, like digitalism, would just be so beloved here.

Oh, well, thank you so much.

And as I said it, you know, we're celebrating all forms of art and I love the fact that we have traditional artists that have dipped their toe into this.

And, you know, we've got tech guys who are, you know, labeling themselves as artists.

And I think that's the other thing I wanted to say about.

I think probably AI more than anything, but that it has democratized art because people are coming from all backgrounds to do it.

You know, so many of them have.

Have not been to art school.

Yes.

Not that I'm saying don't go to art school because it is wonderful.

Yes.

But.

But it just means that it's opening up the arts to even more people.

Yes.

You know, we've got chemists, engineers, and all sorts who.

And architects that have come to this.

So.

But yeah, no, I'd love, Love to bring it to la.

Yeah, that would be amazing.

You know, something you just said, something you just said, you know, sparked a thought because, you know, part of what, what do I want to say?

So, so part of the problem with our current experience with technology or time and it's a problem, but part of the unintended consequences or externality or whatever the word is, with our modern kind of experience around tech and our application.

So typically, most people, right, it is.

They sort of connect with technology through their smartphone generally.

Right.

Like that, you know, and so what that means is we've got our one hand occupied and we've got our head down and we're locked in and we're looking.

So technology on a certain level has forced us to look down.

It's very true.

Right.

And so I feels like the opportunity for so many artists in the digital space is like, how can they help.

Us look up by having shows like this?

Yes.

Bravo.

Good answer.

Rebecca, you a for our honor student today?

Yes.

No, but it's true.

It's true.

Exactly so.

Exactly so.

Because, you know, I feel for this, the Gen zers or Z is as you would say, you know, developing tech neck.

Tech neck.

Right.

Yeah.

It's a thing, isn't it?

Like it's a thing.

Yeah.

And I think, I think in some ways I think you and I, over a generation, we, we kind of bridge that analog digital divide.

Yes.

And I think, I think we're the really lucky ones.

We are, we are.

I'm so grateful to be Gen X.

So am I.

So am I.

Because I think that we've seen, we've seen, we've seen all of these developments and the impact on our own lives, on society, etc, and the arts, of course.

But I, I'm actually quite, I'm quite enjoy the fact that I come from a lo fi world.

Yes, yes.

Analog.

Yes.

Traversed into, into the, you know, hi fi.

But I think it's interesting, I think that things are cyclical, you know, I mean, I think this is why there's been such a revival in vinyl records.

Yes, yes, yes.

And you know, and, and students have led the revival of analog film, you know.

Yes.

Stills film.

And I think that we're always looking for something else, you know.

Well, I read an article the other day that Jen Zetters.

And by the way, I do say Zed.

I do because I speak because.

Well, because I used to work for a British design firm and so I've had some experience and I was like, oh, oh, Zed.

Okay, okay.

Zed X, Y And Zed.

Okay, good.

That makes me sound smarter.

Anyway, but I read this article about Generation Z, and they were saying that they're going back to the movies, like to cinema and to theaters and.

Because they want that.

Well, it's a novelty and new and interesting, but ultimately we're social animals and we want to get out in the world and be with each other.

Absolutely.

But, yeah, and I do.

I think.

Yeah.

As I say, I mean, look, this is something else I used to say to students, and they couldn't quite wrap their heads around it.

So, you know the Voyager space missions, the ones that have gone interstellar?

You know those gold records that are on the side of them, or the gold discs, rather, that tell the story of humankind.

Yeah, yeah.

And I always say to them, so Jen said us.

So how many.

How many photographs do you reckon are on each of those discs?

And of course, they come out with some silly number.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you know the answer to this, Scott?

Oh, you're gonna put me on the spot.

I don't actually know the answer.

Right, so they would have been 35 millimeter transparency slide film.

Yeah, so.

Right.

So 117.

And so I said, so that's to tell the story of us.

Yeah.

And.

And I said, you know, I think last year there was something like 14 trillion photographs generated.

Last year.

Yes, last year.

Which is.

So there's more photographs taken every two minutes now than in the first hundred years of photography.

Yeah, yeah.

So go figure.

So I think inherently there are always going to be people who go, I want to do something else.

Well, but.

Because it becomes noise.

Yes.

No noise.

But, Rebecca, you and I both know what's really going on.

And what's really going on is that the aliens have tricked us into taking these photos because ultimately we're training the AI that will dominate us all.

I do.

I am one of those people that thinks the AI is.

Is.

Is part of the evolution and, you know, higher states of consciousness, everything is opening up, and that's why there's so much chaos.

I don't.

I don't.

I'm not too, too.

I'm not.

I'm overly optimistic.

I'm not pessimistic.

I.

If AI grows thumbs and I can't unplug it, I might get scared.

But beyond that, I'm not too.

I think.

I think a bit like, you know, be careful what you ask for.

I think that our experience of the world is what we reflect it out to be.

So I think the more that somebody posited it to me recently, of a more spiritual nature, that all the things that are going on in the world right now, that by people getting distress and anxiety and fear over all of these things, it's like taking a can of petrol and pouring it all over it, that you're.

We're actually adding to the problem collectively and that.

So I said, well, what's the solution?

And he said, well, it's simple really, isn't it?

It's love.

So that when you think about all these situations, you just pour love into the situation.

That's it.

So, you know, and if you're not with love.

And if you're not with the one.

Yeah.

And if you're not with the one you love, love the one you're with.

Okay, so.

But I think, you know, that sounds overly simplistic, but I do think that's.

I do think that's true.

And I think there's so much fear mongering at the moment.

People getting to really fearful about.

And I don't.

I don't know, it's like, like, it's like not to get political, but what's happening.

It's a apolitical show.

This is Switzerland.

We're Switzerland.

Exactly.

Well, all I'll say is, like, everything.

This too shall pass.

It'll pass.

All right.

Yeah.

So I think I have faith in.

I think I have faith in humanity.

I think that human beings.

Yes, there's more good ones than bad.

Yes, yes.

We just hear about the bad ones in the press.

Well, that's right.

News is not news.

That's right.

Love is.

Love is more powerful than hate.

And human beings ultimately want love in their lives and want to make others feel loved.

I do believe that.

Sure, there are assholes.

Assholes have always existed.

You're never going to get rid of assholes.

But love can't exist without hate, can it?

For sure.

There you go.

Rebecca Tully.

I am just so charmed and so delighted and grateful that our mutual friend Jurgen Perkessel.

Shout out, Jurgen.

Thank you, Jurgen.

Brought us together and I wish you all the best for a fantastic show.

We will be there in spirit and my goal is to be there next year in body.

Please, please.

You are always welcome to come back.

Please come back.

Just hit.

Just email me, let me know.

Hey, I got something on my mind and want to talk about or want to promote something, whatever it is.

You are an official friend of the show, as we like to say.

Bless your heart, as they say.

It's all love, these Celtic parks.

That's right.

Thank you.

So much, Scott.

You've been an absolute joy.

Thank you so much.

Well, you're so welcome.

Thank you, Rebecca.

And I've got a new bestie mate.

You do?

Right here in the City of Angels.

Do you get out?

Do you get.

Do you get to LA much?

Do you know what?

Do you know what?

The nearest I've got to you is San Francisco.

Okay.

All right.

So.

Well, that makes sense given your proud, your connection, technology.

Yes.

Well, you now you have a good reason to come to la.

Thanks.

Time.

You're on the west coast for sure.

Well, I'll look forward to that, my friend.

I'll be doing that.

I'll look forward to that.

Thank you so much.

You have a beautiful evening.

And please, because it's almost, what, almost 9:00 o' clock there.

8:30pm so it's coming up.

Yeah.

Not long before 9.

Yeah, yeah.

So pour up yourself a delicious glass of red wine or white wine, whatever you prefer.

I might have that.

I might have a good old cup of tea first.

Okay.

Okay, good.

I'll have that first.

Well, by the way, start with water.