Domestic Violence and Pets with Anna Ludvik founder of Lucy's Project

DrG: 00:00:19

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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Today we have an amazing guest all

the way from Australia, Anna Ludvik.

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And she is the founder and CEO

of Lucy's Project, which is a

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fantastic organization, works

with people and animals to find

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safety from domestic violence.

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So thank you so much,

Anna, for joining us today.

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Anna Ludvik: Thank you

so much for inviting me.

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It's such an honor to be on your podcast.

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Thank you.

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DrG: Well, thank you.

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Well, can you start by telling

us about yourself and what led

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you to start Lucy's project?

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Anna Ludvik: Yeah, sure.

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I mean, just to let people know, and

they're listening, there might be a

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few things in here that people find

distressing, and talking about my personal

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life, um, and trigger for, um, stillbirth,

animal abuse, always when I'm speaking.

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Um, so I've, I actually...

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I have been passionately

interested in animals and

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animal protection my whole life.

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I can't remember a time in my life where

I wasn't sort of involved in one cause

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or the other for animals, particularly

with a love, a very strong love my

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whole life with rural animals and

large animals, um, and the connection

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to, to, to the land, but I've also,

oh, you know, always had an interest.

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as well.

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Um, do you use that term in the States?

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Companion animal?

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Uh, we use the term companion animal.

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We're talking specifically

about dogs and cats.

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Um, so lots of interesting animals.

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Um, I was got involved.

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I decided to become a lawyer.

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I was training to be a lawyer and

I was doing a lot of voluntary work

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because I wanted to be an animal lawyer.

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That was my big dream.

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I was going to be an animal lawyer

and be of service to animals.

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Um, and, um, during that training,

I got very involved with the animal

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law and education project in Lismore,

which is a country town that I live

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in and in Australia, New South Wales.

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And.

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I learned about this issue that really

spoke to me, which was the intersection

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of domestic violence and animal abuse.

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And it was like this light

bulb moment hearing these other

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really passionate women in this

organization talking about this issue.

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Because for me, you know, with my long

history of, of being, um, An activist.

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The one thing I'd always heard people

say is why should we care about

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animals when humans are suffering?

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Why should we be thinking about animals?

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We've got better things to do

than to worry about these trivial

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issues while children are starving.

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And I think any animal activist will

tell you some version of that story.

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Any, any advocate for animals will tell

you how animals have been diminished

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because humans are so much more serious.

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And you know, There's a whole conversation

we could, we could have on that particular

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issue, but then I thought about this issue

of domestic violence and animal abuse.

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And I think it was an issue that

really spoke to me because it helped

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me to understand why we can't actually

separate the two, why we can't talk

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about human suffering without talking

about animal suffering and why we

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can't talk about animal suffering

without talking about human suffering.

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And it was really, I think, you

know, it's quite a, you know,

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we're a 10 year old organization.

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Now we weren't talking about things like

One Health back in those days, but I

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think that was kind of the beginning of

where people were starting to understand

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That there isn't actually that divide.

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And it was a cause that I felt

like I cared about a lot because

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it helped us to understand that

animals are not just a one day issue.

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They're a, they're a today issue.

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And I thought it was great

that these women were doing

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that work in this organization.

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Whereas I was busy with my large

animal work and um, And so I was

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pregnant with my first child, uh, Lucy.

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Um, and during that pregnancy,

unfortunately, every funding attempt

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that these, these women in animal

law and education project were

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trying to go for was knocked back.

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People said that it wasn't a real issue.

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They didn't take it seriously.

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It was minimalized.

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It couldn't be that big a deal.

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It was, it was almost mocked and derided.

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And so when it came time for Lucy

to be born, my first child, my

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first ever baby to be born, um, I

found out, um, during her birth.

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that she passed away.

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Um, and I didn't want to, I couldn't,

it was, it was, it's, it's, it's,

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you know, anyone that's lost a child

will tell you, it's just a grief that

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is very hard to find a place for.

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It's very hard to, to, to, to think of.

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How do you get through this?

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This is not what I was expecting.

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This is not where I was going.

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This, this isn't this, it just felt

so against nature and so wrong.

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And I guess for me, part of the bargaining

phase of getting through and coming to

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terms with and accepting the reality

that I was about to, to birth a child

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that would never breathe was to give that

breath and to give that life to a cause

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that had spoken to me to something that

I had never done before, that, that.

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Was that hadn't been in existence to

bring to life something that I felt

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was incredibly important and to breathe

that life into, into a cause and into a

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movement that was going to save lives.

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And I think for me there in the

hospital, as I was delivering her,

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the symmetry and the beautiful synergy

of, um, of the protection that.

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The cause spoke to, you know, to, to be

able to protect children, animals that

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I dedicated my life to and vulnerable

women because, you know, that was, was

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the most vulnerable point of my life.

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Um, I, my, my partner had

left me during the pregnancy.

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I'd been a single mom.

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I'd been preparing to

raise this child alone.

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Um, I was there having to go

through this horrific thing.

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thing.

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And I wasn't able to protect my child,

but yet, you know, I always had this

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passion, dedication for animals and

just felt like the most perfect thing.

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Like what if somebody

lived because she died?

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What if an animal was able

to live because she died?

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What if a woman was able to be

protected and to protect her children?

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Because I couldn't protect mine.

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And, um, And it just felt

like the most powerful thing

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that I could do in her name.

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And it was like, Lucy's project as a name

for the organization just felt so natural.

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So it felt like the most

natural thing in the world.

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So I often say that the project was born

at the same moment that she was born and

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came into existence in the same moment.

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And it really does.

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Inform a lot of the passion that I

have for this work that that I know

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that it is the life and it is her.

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It is.

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It is her that does this work

and it's and none of this would

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have happened without her.

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So so it remains her project.

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Um, and I'm really proud of how much

we have achieved in the 10 years since

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her birth since that very first day.

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Um, where I know that.

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This is the cause that is recognized.

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It's no longer mocked.

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It's we, we have, we have a great language

around that is, it is a movement and it's

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growing every day, which is something

I'm, I'm incredibly proud of Lucy for

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DrG: it's.

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I mean, it's so much to go

through and I cannot imagine it.

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I think that it is amazing though,

that you can honor her memory by

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helping some other people and helping

animals like that is, that is a

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beautiful thing to be able to, to do.

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Like her legacy will continue.

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Anna Ludvik: Yeah, it's,

it's, it's wonderful.

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I mean, I, I sometimes say that when

I'm looking at a crowd of people that

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have just listened to me and they've

just learned something about the

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link between domestic violence and

animal abuse, I, I look out and I feel

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like I'm looking at her, I feel like

there she is, that's what she's done.

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And it's, it is, it is beautiful.

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And it is, it is quite motivating

to get through sometimes

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some very confronting issues.

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It was, I think one of the first.

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Problems that I ever have.

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And it is getting it is

getting less thankfully.

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But one of the first problems I have when

I talk about these issues is people wonder

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why I'm talking about domestic violence

and animal abuse in the same breath.

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Why is that in the same sentence?

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What is the relationship between the two?

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Like, you know, why?

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Why are we talking about this?

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And it's one of those movements

that I always say is a secret

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in playing in plain sight.

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So The first thing that happens when

I start talking about the course,

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the first thing that happens,

people say, why are you putting

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these things in the same sentence?

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And we say, well, look in Australia,

I don't know the statistics

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specifically for the United States,

and that's a very dense population.

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I'm sure there's great variation

across the country, but

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Australia has one of the highest.

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numbers of companion animal

and pet and animal ownership

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of any country in the world.

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Sadly, concurrently, we also

have one of the highest rates

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of domestic and family violence.

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So when you think about that, it's

obvious that there's going to be

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animals that are in the family.

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that is affected by domestic

and family violence.

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And there's been some really interesting

studies in Australia about the

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massive proportion, things like that.

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83 percent of Australian households

consider the family animal to be part

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of the family, to be a family member.

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And it seems to be a platitude that we

throw around with something of abandoned

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to say, You know, the pets are my family.

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I consider, oh, you know, they're

like one of the children, or

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the term such as fur baby.

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We look at them as parts of the

family, but then suddenly when

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we talk about domestic violence,

it's like they're removed.

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But they aren't.

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And they aren't.

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And what we found is some really

disturbing statistics about 93 percent

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of people that flee a domestic and

family violence situation with their

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animals are turned away from refuges

because they have their animals with

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them, which causes, which forces either

return surrender or, or very troubling a

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return to an unsafe home or animal abuse,

which causes a form of coercive control

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or psychological abuse upon the person

that has that bond with the animals.

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We literally cannot separate

human risk or animal risk.

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In the time of domestic family violence,

when a pet is a part of a household

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and in Australia, it is the majority.

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Now that majority increases dramatically

when we start talking about regional,

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rural and remote people who tend to

have not just one animal, they tend

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to have multiple animals and often

animals of multiple different species.

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So they might have dogs and

cats and cows and chickens.

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And those animals may very well be

considered their companion animal.

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They might be farm animals that might

be that person's livelihood and means

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of survival, but that might also be the

companion chicken or the companion pig.

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And those animals are just as bonded

to them as we might in, in, in more

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urban areas, consider our dog or cat.

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And, and so there's, there's

a lot of issues around that,

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but I digress somewhat.

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I think the point that I was

coming to is first, we wonder.

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Why we can't separate domestic

violence and animal abuse.

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And as soon as I explain this to

people, it's like a light bulb moment.

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Oh, that's so obvious.

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Oh, that is so obvious.

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Oh my goodness.

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It's an aha.

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Oh yeah, you're right.

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Actually.

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Why have I never thought about it?

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And as soon as they think about

it, it's so, it's so obvious.

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It's so true.

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It's such a truism, which is so

important, it's so important that we

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continue that advocacy and awareness,

raising work so that people do continue

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to have those light bulb moments.

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The second thing that happens.

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At varying spade.

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Sometimes it's instantaneous.

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Sometimes it's a few hours later.

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Sometimes it's a couple of days later.

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People start to recall to me stories

that they have of experiences

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that they've had in their own

lives of when this has happened

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to them or when they've seen this.

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Oh, my next door neighbor.

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Oh yeah, that's right.

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When, There was a situation going on there

and he came back and he killed the turtle

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or, you know, that's right, when my sister

was going through a divorce, that's what

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happened to her dog, I was terribly sad.

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But it's almost like people

have compartmentalized the

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animal part of the story.

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They haven't actually seen how

central the animal has been.

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To the story of that person's story,

that story of domestic and family

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violence, that story of survival.

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And it's those stories that have

fallen off the primary picture that

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are sometimes the most critical.

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Um, and if, if I'm not talking too much

here, am I right to keep going, Dr.

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G?

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DrG: Yeah, no, you're good.

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You're good.

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Because yeah, it's really

important to explain to people.

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I mean, like, a lot of people don't

realize that these animals are a

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source of emotional support, right?

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So their family and people that are

suffering through these experiences,

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through these traumas, need these

animals more than, than You know,

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people that are not experiencing trauma,

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.

Anna Ludvik: That's precisely right, and when we start to drill down, when

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we have that first understanding, that

first initial grasp that we can't separate

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family, we can't separate that bond

instantly as soon as there's domestic and

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family violence, that we can't just say

to people, care just about your children.

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We can't do that.

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We start to drill down to the why,

and the why's are very, very critical.

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They're very critical, like you just

identified, importantly, the bonds

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that children might have with those

animals, the bonds that people might

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have with those animals, the support

that they might need, that the animal

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might have been the only witness that

anyone has ever had to the abuse.

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That animal may have suffered alongside

them, that might have been abused

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beside them, the animal might have

been a comfort to that person after.

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Abuse, that person might've been the

reason that they continue to get out

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of bed in the morning because the dog

needed a walk or the dog needed to be

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fed or the dog needed their medication.

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It gives that sense, that person a sense

that their life has value and that their

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life has meaning without which they

don't really see a reason to go on.

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It can be the most critical form of

support for, for, for a person that has

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experienced significant abuse, but there's

another person that gets left out so

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frequently, so commonly from the story.

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And I, I, I, I do hope that it's

different in the States, but I doubt

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that it is, and that's the children.

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And when a person is frequently the mother

of the family, or the female person of the

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family, not always, but most commonly, Um,

is dealing with the breakup of the family,

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the removal to a safe place and the

changing of the schools and the changing

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of addresses and the physical injuries

and the psychological injuries and the

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trauma and all of the incredible amount

of life administration that it takes.

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Who is looking after the emotional

well being of that child?

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And frequently it's the family dog or

the family cat that jumps up onto the

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child's face and licks their face and

makes them laugh, or does that silly thing

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where they chase their tail or gets the

child out into the sunshine to play ball.

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It's the animal who's soft fur the child

cries into or holds or falls asleep

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with when the mother just has nothing

left to give in that particular moment.

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There is that animal that is.

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And children are amazing at,

um, at finding moments to

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live and to fully inhabit.

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And often we find that a child will

have a recollection of very traumatic

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times by going back and remembering

just this magical moment with an animal.

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Because children are

very good at doing that.

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And I think that it's incredibly important

that we don't forget the bond that

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that child may have with the animal.

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And leaving the animal is another trauma.

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that we would inflict upon a

very traumatized child through

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an incredibly stressful period.

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The ability to keep families

together is incredibly important

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for the well being of that child.

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It's also, as I've mentioned,

very incredibly important for

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the adult survivor as well.

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Um, but I don't want to sideline children.

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I don't want them to be a footnote

because it's been too long that the

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needs of children has been a footnote.

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But the other thing that we have to

realize is for families, and this is

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a very common story where families

are forced to leave an animal behind,

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is that sometimes the animal can be

the reason that the person has to

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go back, often with their children,

to a very unsafe home environment.

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The perpetrator will often threaten

harm or cause a degree of harm to the

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animal and say that if you don't come

home, there will be more of this.

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Um, and sending them distressing

photographs or sending them distressing

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images or telling them distressing

stories about what will happen.

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All you need to do to stop

the abuse is come home.

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Um, and so often that's what happens.

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: 00:15:56

And the family are put back through

the chaos, the uncertainty, and the

313

: 00:15:59

cycle of abuse again because they've

gone back to protect an animal.

314

: 00:16:03

The sense of guilt and shame

and responsibility that the

315

: 00:16:07

person has to that animal.

316

: 00:16:09

Um, can sometimes be one of the worst

forms of abuse that that person can

317

: 00:16:15

go through because it attacks them

in the areas of their compassion,

318

: 00:16:19

of their empathy, of their love,

their sense of self worth and their

319

: 00:16:22

sense of purpose, critical, harmful

places to hurt a human being.

320

: 00:16:26

And in case that that hasn't isn't

enough to help people understand

321

: 00:16:31

why we need to take this issue

so critically, this is the one.

322

: 00:16:34

This is the kicker.

323

: 00:16:35

This is the one that

keeps me awake at night.

324

: 00:16:37

This is the one that I think we have

known and done nothing about is that

325

: 00:16:43

abuse to animals is one of the three

most significant indicators of a

326

: 00:16:47

perpetrator who will go on to commit

homicide will murder the human victims.

327

: 00:16:52

We know that it's up there with threats

of suicide and owning a firearm.

328

: 00:16:57

Particularly in Australia, where

there's not as many firearms.

329

: 00:17:00

We know that those three factors

together, um, uh, heighten a person's

330

: 00:17:04

risk of going on to be killed.

331

: 00:17:07

We also know that perpetrators of

animal abuse are some of the most

332

: 00:17:11

dangerous perpetrators in our community.

333

: 00:17:14

So this is not something that

we can treat as that nice.

334

: 00:17:19

furry fluffy issue on the side.

335

: 00:17:21

It is impossible to remove the need

to protect animals from the need

336

: 00:17:25

to protect humans because animal

protection is a human rights issue.

337

: 00:17:28

And I think that we need to take those

very sober, very, very humbling issues

338

: 00:17:34

to heart and start to talk about these

issues more, to take these issues

339

: 00:17:37

more seriously and provide better.

340

: 00:17:39

I think we have a human responsibility

to take these issues more seriously.

341

: 00:17:46

DrG: Yeah, I think that some people

mistake the fact that the perpetrators

342

: 00:17:51

are not necessarily abusing the

animal to satisfy themselves because

343

: 00:17:56

they're, they want to abuse the animal.

344

: 00:17:58

It's a means of control.

345

: 00:17:59

It's a means of having

somebody do something.

346

: 00:18:02

And, uh, to your point, they will They

will do it towards their partner, but

347

: 00:18:07

they will do it towards the Children.

348

: 00:18:09

I'm actually, I'm currently

pursuing a master's degree in

349

: 00:18:12

animal law for non attorneys.

350

: 00:18:15

And that's one of the things that we

have seen in one of the classes is

351

: 00:18:19

the voices from these survivors saying

how their partner You know, killed an

352

: 00:18:26

animal or threatened to kill an animal

just to just to make them compliant

353

: 00:18:30

to make the Children comply and how

difficult it was for them to leave.

354

: 00:18:35

I believe the statistics here, at

least in the United States, is that the

355

: 00:18:38

average domestic violence victim will

attempt to leave about seven times.

356

: 00:18:44

I don't know if that's

the same as what you see.

357

: 00:18:46

Anna Ludvik: Yeah, it correlates

seven to nine in Australia.

358

: 00:18:49

Yeah.

359

: 00:18:49

DrG: So, uh, I know that there

are, there are more and more states

360

: 00:18:53

here in the United States that are

including animals in protection orders

361

: 00:18:56

for victims of domestic violence.

362

: 00:18:58

Is that something that is

occurring in Australia as well?

363

: 00:19:02

Anna Ludvik: Yeah, look,

theoretically it is.

364

: 00:19:04

Um, in practice, there's not enough

research and not enough funding into

365

: 00:19:07

research to know the incidence of that.

366

: 00:19:09

And I'm not sure if...

367

: 00:19:11

Because there's been some recent

legislative reform that's made that

368

: 00:19:14

an easier thing to do in some states.

369

: 00:19:16

So it's very hard to talk, you

know, as it is in America to talk

370

: 00:19:19

about, um, a national approach.

371

: 00:19:22

Uh, but, you know, state by state it

is, it is increasingly happening, but I

372

: 00:19:25

don't think there's a level of awareness

or the general public awareness or

373

: 00:19:29

activism within, um, this, the domestic

and family set violence sectors or

374

: 00:19:32

the police force or enforcement,

that's actually really drilling home

375

: 00:19:35

just how critical that issue is.

376

: 00:19:37

And we don't have the on how

frequently that's occurring.

377

: 00:19:40

And that's one of The projects that

Lucy's project wants to take on is it's

378

: 00:19:44

understanding those baselines better

and understanding how that is increasing

379

: 00:19:48

because it's not happening often enough.

380

: 00:19:50

And of course, it's all complicated by

the issues of animals being property.

381

: 00:19:55

Which is an issue that, um, you know,

legally speaking, we haven't found an

382

: 00:19:59

alternative approach to that really works

in a domestic and family violence setting.

383

: 00:20:03

So if the animal is considered the legal

property of the perpetrator, it can

384

: 00:20:08

be incredibly difficult for the victim

survivor to gain access and control of

385

: 00:20:13

that animal in order to To to protect

that animal on to take custody off

386

: 00:20:17

that animal to take the animal away

from the perpetrator unless they can

387

: 00:20:22

prove somehow that they have assumed

the primary care of that animal, the

388

: 00:20:26

primary responsibility for the animal,

which if you don't have a caseworker

389

: 00:20:31

or a police that's understanding

or cognizant of the importance of

390

: 00:20:34

those issues, it's a little bit.

391

: 00:20:37

Complicated.

392

: 00:20:38

It's a mess.

393

: 00:20:39

It's a mess.

394

: 00:20:40

And, and I've spoken to a lot of

police officers as well about, about

395

: 00:20:43

how problematic that situation is.

396

: 00:20:45

Do you feel like that's

better in the States?

397

: 00:20:47

You think that's handled

better in the States?

398

: 00:20:49

I

399

: 00:20:49

DrG: think that in some places it's

starting to, so I know that, um,

400

: 00:20:54

custody battles happen and now more

and more they are like some more

401

: 00:20:59

States are looking at animals, not

simply as property more, but more as

402

: 00:21:04

living property so that they evaluate.

403

: 00:21:07

where the animal should go,

taking into consideration

404

: 00:21:10

the well being of the animal.

405

: 00:21:11

Similar as how children are, are sent

somewhere, you know, it should be

406

: 00:21:16

based on the well being of the child.

407

: 00:21:18

So some of these states that have these

provisions for custody battles, uh,

408

: 00:21:23

part of the well being of the animal

is that the person that is going to

409

: 00:21:27

retain custody of the animal is not

a violent person and is not, uh,

410

: 00:21:32

like a domestic violence perpetrator.

411

: 00:21:35

So at least in that sense, even if, even

if both, you know, if the, if the, uh,

412

: 00:21:41

violent spouse is the one that purchased

the animal, normally you would say,

413

: 00:21:45

okay, well, that's the person that keeps

it because they purchased the animal.

414

: 00:21:48

Well, now they look into more

than just simply who paid for it,

415

: 00:21:53

who, who made the transaction.

416

: 00:21:55

It's looked more from a

well, wellness, uh, overall.

417

: 00:21:59

Anna Ludvik: Mm.

418

: 00:22:00

I like that approach.

419

: 00:22:01

That's that's great.

420

: 00:22:02

That's really inspiring.

421

: 00:22:03

Lots of food for thought in that one.

422

: 00:22:04

Um, I'd love to get to that point.

423

: 00:22:06

I think that, you know, there's been

some fantastic work done in the United

424

: 00:22:10

States by the link coalition and, um,

and Phil Arco in raising awareness and

425

: 00:22:16

getting those issues out there and, and,

and highlighting it to the world of just,

426

: 00:22:19

just how much has been achieved in the

states, um, I'd love to, I'd love to get

427

: 00:22:24

to that same level here and keep Studying

what you guys are doing over there.

428

: 00:22:28

Uh, the link coalition's been, um,

incredible in informing and informing

429

: 00:22:33

our knowledge of what's happening.

430

: 00:22:34

So thank you very much for,

for that inspiration as well.

431

: 00:22:39

DrG: Yeah, and I, I think that overall, I

mean, it, it is just difficult for people

432

: 00:22:43

in general to understand why somebody

would not leave an abusive relationship.

433

: 00:22:47

And I think that one of the

problems that then end up occurring

434

: 00:22:50

is kind of like victim blaming.

435

: 00:22:52

Uh, and it's such a complex.

436

: 00:22:55

I'd say there's just so many reasons

why people can be the victims

437

: 00:23:01

of abuse, and there are so many

different forms of abuse, right?

438

: 00:23:05

So we, we only think

about the physical abuse.

439

: 00:23:07

We don't think about the emotional trauma,

we don't think about like financial

440

: 00:23:11

abuse and, and all these other things.

441

: 00:23:13

And it, it, it brings about different

challenges when people are trying to

442

: 00:23:19

leave and then you add the animal to

that equation and then it, it adds.

443

: 00:23:25

Yet another level of challenge is, you

know, how, how do you, I guess, how does

444

: 00:23:30

your organization work with somebody that,

that is in the process of trying to find

445

: 00:23:35

resources and trying to find a way out?

446

: 00:23:39

Anna Ludvik: I mean, Lucy's project

made the decision early on in our

447

: 00:23:43

formation that our primary focus is in

removing systemic roadblocks to safety.

448

: 00:23:50

So we.

449

: 00:23:52

Decided not to be an organization that

takes animals on ourselves or that

450

: 00:23:56

rehomes people, because we know that

that work, although there's a massive

451

: 00:24:00

need for that work, would keep us busy

enough that we wouldn't have time to go

452

: 00:24:05

in and actually work toward creating, um,

Creating the resources that people need.

453

: 00:24:11

And it's an interesting question.

454

: 00:24:12

Um, I'd like to hope that I can find

the right place to start with that.

455

: 00:24:16

Because that's quite a big question there.

456

: 00:24:19

And we found often that, I don't

know if this also correlates with

457

: 00:24:25

stats, um, where you are, but A lot

of people never actually go through

458

: 00:24:30

domestic and family violence services.

459

: 00:24:32

They actually, they actually,

they find their own supports.

460

: 00:24:34

They find their own resources.

461

: 00:24:36

And we found that by helping people to

have some tools in the time of crisis

462

: 00:24:40

to know how they can find protection for

their animals and protection, uh, and

463

: 00:24:44

all the things that they need for their

animal in the time of a crisis, a lot

464

: 00:24:48

of people are able to, when resourced,

find a lot of the solutions themselves

465

: 00:24:52

within their friends and family network.

466

: 00:24:54

But, you know, domestic and

family violence, be that.

467

: 00:24:56

Physical or be that emotional

or financial it, any marital

468

: 00:25:00

breakup or any relationship

breakup or any family breakdown.

469

: 00:25:03

Cause you have to remember family violence

isn't always about a romantic union.

470

: 00:25:07

It can be, you know, a family member

that, that is, that is causing

471

: 00:25:12

the strife within the family.

472

: 00:25:13

Whatever that breakdown

is, it is deeply traumatic.

473

: 00:25:16

It is a time of chaos.

474

: 00:25:17

It is a time of confusion and

it can be very, very hard to

475

: 00:25:21

find your way mentally through.

476

: 00:25:24

Those challenges and sometimes just having

a checklist that's ready at hand to know

477

: 00:25:28

what you need to do to have someone who's

got your back that believes in you, that

478

: 00:25:31

sees you, that says, yep, okay, here's

some things that you could you could

479

: 00:25:35

check off and you could get organized

for in order to find your way to safety.

480

: 00:25:39

We found it's been really, really

helpful for a lot of people.

481

: 00:25:42

Um, you know, able to go, okay, well, I

need to pack my animals, medication and

482

: 00:25:45

their feet and their bedding and just

that little bit of sort of structural

483

: 00:25:48

support and the things that they're

going to need to do in order to get out.

484

: 00:25:51

Those sorts of resources have been

really useful, but also we find,

485

: 00:25:55

um, with frontline workers who

are often incredibly overwhelmed.

486

: 00:26:00

will come to us and say, we don't know

how to support this client and actually

487

: 00:26:03

doing some training with frontline

workers on what the supports are in

488

: 00:26:06

their areas, how they can access it,

how they can support the client to find

489

: 00:26:10

friends and family within their own

network that might be able to help them.

490

: 00:26:13

Because in Australia, there's just.

491

: 00:26:15

An absolute paucity of resources

for people with animals experiencing

492

: 00:26:18

domestic and family violence.

493

: 00:26:20

As I mentioned at the beginning of 93

percent of people that turned away.

494

: 00:26:24

So what we need to do is think

outside the box and be quite creative.

495

: 00:26:27

So whilst we're very busily working with

organizations and helping them to be pet

496

: 00:26:32

inclusive and helping for organizations

and networks to form alliances that.

497

: 00:26:36

can offer more support

to people with animals.

498

: 00:26:39

In the immediate term, we're going to be

having to think out of the box and find

499

: 00:26:42

informal supports and helping people

to look around them at where they might

500

: 00:26:46

be able to find those supports and how.

501

: 00:26:48

We've had a really tough time post

COVID of shelters just overflowing

502

: 00:26:52

with animals that have been abandoned,

which, or surrendered, which has been

503

: 00:26:58

incredibly challenging for people

experiencing violence because it's

504

: 00:27:01

even further reduced the access.

505

: 00:27:03

that they have to those support

services and to the level of

506

: 00:27:07

exhaustion within animal services.

507

: 00:27:08

So there's a lot of thinking out the

box that has to happen constantly.

508

: 00:27:12

I hope that, um, that answers

your question there because

509

: 00:27:15

there's just so many, so many

different ways to talk about that.

510

: 00:27:19

So, um, one of the things that I like

to advocate for frequently, uh, is

511

: 00:27:25

foster care networks for animals.

512

: 00:27:28

There is a moment.

513

: 00:27:30

When a crisis first occurs where a person

is trying to find safe accommodation and

514

: 00:27:34

being able to stay with the animal is

sometimes just practically impossible.

515

: 00:27:39

There's just too many moving parts and the

instability is too great for the animal.

516

: 00:27:42

So there might be, there might be

short periods of up to 2 months where

517

: 00:27:47

that animal might need foster care.

518

: 00:27:49

But we also have to consider some

fairly gruesome realities for

519

: 00:27:52

people with animals and that is

hospitalization and suffering trauma.

520

: 00:27:55

from their injuries.

521

: 00:27:56

They might be physically incapable

for a period because of an assault

522

: 00:28:00

to look after their animals.

523

: 00:28:01

And without temporary foster

care networks, uh, people are

524

: 00:28:04

left with, with nowhere to go.

525

: 00:28:07

And also thinking about mental health

and periods of homelessness that

526

: 00:28:11

occur after domestic and family.

527

: 00:28:14

Violence.

528

: 00:28:15

It's very important that we have

foster care networks that are able

529

: 00:28:17

to wrap around the family for more

than just that initial crisis period.

530

: 00:28:20

But over the next sort of few years

as that family finds some stability

531

: 00:28:25

and some healing from those traumas,

those those crisis foster care

532

: 00:28:28

networks might come back into play.

533

: 00:28:30

So that's something that

we focus on quite strongly.

534

: 00:28:32

It's encouraging and speaking up about

the need for crisis foster care networks.

535

: 00:28:36

And I don't know what your experience

has been in this sector, but I've,

536

: 00:28:41

I often feel like people kind of

get like micro focused on there

537

: 00:28:44

being one solution, like if only all

crisis foster, if only all crisis.

538

: 00:28:50

women's refuges were able to take animals.

539

: 00:28:52

That would solve the problem.

540

: 00:28:53

And I'm like, well, yeah, like it might

do for people that go through those

541

: 00:28:57

refuges and it might do for the two

months that they're in those refuges.

542

: 00:29:01

But then what, you know, is it

going on to interim housing?

543

: 00:29:04

Is it going on to support them

when they have the surgery to

544

: 00:29:07

recover from a trauma a few years?

545

: 00:29:09

You know, you know, six months down

the line or a year down the line is

546

: 00:29:12

it helping them if they experience

homelessness in 12 months and and

547

: 00:29:15

the answer is that there's no one

solution that is ever going to do that.

548

: 00:29:18

We need to.

549

: 00:29:19

And this is something that

Lucy's project looks at.

550

: 00:29:21

We look at it from a 360 degree viewpoint.

551

: 00:29:24

What are all of the different services?

552

: 00:29:27

What are all of the different

supports that that person needs?

553

: 00:29:30

And how can we bring those into existence?

554

: 00:29:32

How can we be, you know, bridging those

gaps and filling in the space between

555

: 00:29:37

services and having those services

speak with each other and align with

556

: 00:29:41

each other so that they are accessible

and easy to refer to in a time of

557

: 00:29:45

crisis and in the years following that.

558

: 00:29:48

So that's what we do.

559

: 00:29:49

DrG: I had the opportunity to visit

a facility called Interfaith Housing

560

: 00:29:54

Network here in Ohio in Cincinnati, Ohio.

561

: 00:29:56

And basically what they are is they

are run by social workers, but they

562

: 00:30:02

offer a couple of different services.

563

: 00:30:04

And one of the services is like they

do offer co housing, they have a place

564

: 00:30:09

that people can go into and live for

either short term or a little bit

565

: 00:30:14

longer term, just until they get,

you know, how to say stronger to

566

: 00:30:19

be able to to move on on their own.

567

: 00:30:21

And then they also help people with,

as you were mentioning, the fostering.

568

: 00:30:26

Um, you know, either them holding onto

the animals kind of like as a rescue

569

: 00:30:31

or boarding facility of sorts, uh, or

providing assistance with foster care.

570

: 00:30:36

And there's a really great organization

called My Dog Is My Home that it just

571

: 00:30:40

helps provide assistance, similar

to how you're saying they don't work

572

: 00:30:46

directly with the individuals, but they

help with different organizations so

573

: 00:30:51

that they can help provide all of the

different things that they need because.

574

: 00:30:56

Yeah, as you said, it's not just saying,

okay, here, here's a place, here's a bed.

575

: 00:31:00

Now you, you have a place to sleep.

576

: 00:31:02

And the problem is solved is, you

know, what do you need to stay to,

577

: 00:31:07

to, to stay independent, right?

578

: 00:31:10

Because it's not a matter of, okay,

you got outta that relationship.

579

: 00:31:13

Now you need to look for

another relationship to survive.

580

: 00:31:15

Right?

581

: 00:31:15

Is no, how do you take care of you?

582

: 00:31:17

And especially if you have children,

how do you take care of you and

583

: 00:31:20

your children and then your animals?

584

: 00:31:22

So helping them with.

585

: 00:31:24

Whether it be getting ready to, to look

for a job or, you know, that all of

586

: 00:31:29

those nuances that we don't think about

when we're thinking about just basically

587

: 00:31:34

getting away from a violent situation.

588

: 00:31:37

Anna Ludvik: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

589

: 00:31:39

And you know, like, you just reminded

me that, you know, it's something that's

590

: 00:31:42

really easy to talk about as well.

591

: 00:31:44

You know, when we're going to be

talking about The link between

592

: 00:31:47

domestic violence and animal abuse.

593

: 00:31:49

It's very easy to really focus on

why we should care about these issues

594

: 00:31:52

and what the humans might need.

595

: 00:31:53

But there's a very animal, important

animal issue in here that we can't

596

: 00:31:58

forget as well is that we're talking

about some quite traumatized animals.

597

: 00:32:01

We might be talking about animals that

have experienced some horrific violence,

598

: 00:32:04

either themselves or witnessing or being

raised in a household with high anxiety

599

: 00:32:08

and high stress and seeing the people

that they care about being harmed.

600

: 00:32:12

And that can have some

horrible effects on that dog.

601

: 00:32:15

psychological well being.

602

: 00:32:17

We see behaviors like anxiety,

barking, separation anxiety.

603

: 00:32:21

We see things like, um,

sometimes aggression or, um,

604

: 00:32:25

anti social, uh, behaviors that,

that, uh, make that doable.

605

: 00:32:30

You know, I think specifically

about dogs as a default.

606

: 00:32:33

Animal, but it could be any animal

really that that has some behaviors

607

: 00:32:36

that are then hard to handle that

you can't necessarily just put into

608

: 00:32:38

any, any home, but then that animal

is going to need therapy of its own.

609

: 00:32:42

It's going to need behavioral support.

610

: 00:32:44

We often find that animals that

come out of these homes haven't

611

: 00:32:47

had adequate veterinary care or

health care for a very long time.

612

: 00:32:50

We hear horrible stories of animals that

have been chained up in backyards and

613

: 00:32:54

deprived of food and flea treatments

and nail care and dental care and, and

614

: 00:32:59

all these sort of fundamental health.

615

: 00:33:01

needs.

616

: 00:33:01

There's a massive vet bill that

sometimes comes with that animal finally

617

: 00:33:05

being able to be in a safe place.

618

: 00:33:08

Um, and we can't forget how important

it is for there to be somebody that's

619

: 00:33:11

animal trauma informed as well, able to

be there and why it's important that we

620

: 00:33:16

fund that aspect of domestic violence as

well, because that is, that is important.

621

: 00:33:20

is part of the whole story of domestic

and family violence and rehabilitation.

622

: 00:33:25

Uh, some of the hardest parts

of the work that I do is, is

623

: 00:33:28

looking through the sexual abuse

of animals and the traumatized.

624

: 00:33:31

I mean, there's some stuff I find

even hard to obliquely mention or

625

: 00:33:36

to even obliquely make reference

to, um, especially when it comes to

626

: 00:33:40

children, animals and sexual abuse.

627

: 00:33:42

That is so deeply problematic that we

need to be looking at that holistic

628

: 00:33:47

sort of post trauma recovery period

as well, uh, and addressing the

629

: 00:33:51

traumas that people have experienced

that do relate to animals, animal

630

: 00:33:54

welfare and animal well being.

631

: 00:33:56

Um, and sometimes it can even be the case

that that person cannot be around animals

632

: 00:34:00

because of what they've experienced.

633

: 00:34:01

So there is no singular answer,

there is no singular experience,

634

: 00:34:05

and there's no singular solution.

635

: 00:34:06

There's just a lot of work to be done.

636

: 00:34:09

And I just, I guess I...

637

: 00:34:11

I live in the hope that perhaps if we

had greater awareness of the link between

638

: 00:34:16

domestic violence and animal abuse,

perhaps if we had a greater awareness

639

: 00:34:19

of how important this stuff was, and

we were able to take it more seriously

640

: 00:34:22

and faster, it wouldn't get to those

incredibly intense, like so many of those

641

: 00:34:27

incredibly intense case studies that are

just so deep and so incredibly traumatic

642

: 00:34:32

with such horrible outcomes for people and

such horrible outcomes for animals that,

643

: 00:34:36

um, I hope we can avoid some of them.

644

: 00:34:38

I hope that some of them will be

nipped in the bud, as it were.

645

: 00:34:42

But it starts with awareness and

starts talking about these issues.

646

: 00:34:45

So I'm so grateful to you for for

platforming this issue and I hope

647

: 00:34:49

that somebody hears this and does

take animal abuse more seriously.

648

: 00:34:53

And one of the things that we

talk about as well is that animal

649

: 00:34:56

abuse can, I don't believe.

650

: 00:34:58

The statistics are something like,

oh gosh, what are they five times a

651

: 00:35:02

person who abuses animals is five times

more likely to go on and abuse humans.

652

: 00:35:07

But, I just see almost no instances.

653

: 00:35:11

I don't see many instances.

654

: 00:35:12

I can't think of any examples of where

somebody has abused an animal stops there.

655

: 00:35:17

You know, someone that abuses an

animal or is harmful towards an

656

: 00:35:19

animal is unlikely to be a person

that you are safe to be around.

657

: 00:35:23

And so if we were to take animal abuse

seriously, if we were able to actually

658

: 00:35:27

just look at that issue and go, that is

not something that is acceptable to me.

659

: 00:35:30

This is not something that's

acceptable in a modern society.

660

: 00:35:33

I wonder how many human lives we'd save.

661

: 00:35:35

And if we could stop trivializing

one issue over the other, if we

662

: 00:35:37

could stop the victim blaming, if we

could stop the, you know, this, this.

663

: 00:35:41

This issue, we don't like the sort

of triaging of what matters most.

664

: 00:35:43

If we could just take these issues that

are egregious abuses of a living being's

665

: 00:35:48

rights, if we could take them more

seriously, I just wonder what a kind

666

: 00:35:52

of world we'd be living in and how many

of these abuses we would be able to,

667

: 00:35:57

to solve before they became so serious.

668

: 00:36:00

DrG: Yeah, so many people

start with animals, right?

669

: 00:36:03

Because they're they're easy victims.

670

: 00:36:04

They don't tell anybody.

671

: 00:36:05

They can't tell anybody.

672

: 00:36:07

And they're just defenseless.

673

: 00:36:08

You know, we think about dogs.

674

: 00:36:10

Okay, the dog can bark

or the dog can bite.

675

: 00:36:12

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

676

: 00:36:13

Somebody that is abusive is going to

to take advantage of that relationship.

677

: 00:36:17

And that and the link

is extremely important.

678

: 00:36:19

Uh, A few weeks ago, I interviewed

Mark Randall from the UK, and we

679

: 00:36:24

were discussing about the importance

of investigating the animal crimes

680

: 00:36:29

as a way to protect society,

as a way to protect community.

681

: 00:36:31

He was telling about a story of

some, of some, uh, kids that were

682

: 00:36:36

killing dogs, and then they escalated

to start killing homeless people.

683

: 00:36:40

So, uh, we also see that with, for

instance, like dog fighting that

684

: 00:36:44

you go into a dog fighting thing.

685

: 00:36:45

It's not just about the

dogs that are being harmed.

686

: 00:36:47

It's about all the other human

crimes that are going on around it.

687

: 00:36:51

Uh, I have, I was involved in the

investigation of the evaluation of a case

688

: 00:36:57

where a child sexually assaulted a dog.

689

: 00:37:00

And then after investigating found out

that the child itself was being, uh,

690

: 00:37:04

sexually assaulted by its stepfather.

691

: 00:37:06

So, you know, by, by.

692

: 00:37:09

Taking the animals more seriously, we

can have a better hope of helping

693

: 00:37:13

society, you know, using the

animals as sentinels if anything.

694

: 00:37:19

Anna Ludvik: Absolutely, absolutely right.

695

: 00:37:20

Absolutely right.

696

: 00:37:21

Whenever I hear a story in the news of

some horrific abuse that some human has

697

: 00:37:26

caused toward another human, I go, Oh,

it's gonna be a matter of time until

698

: 00:37:29

something comes out in the news that this

person has done something to animals.

699

: 00:37:34

And vice versa.

700

: 00:37:35

And vice versa.

701

: 00:37:36

And it's shockingly accurate

how often that happens.

702

: 00:37:39

If people start to notice that in their

own lives, I think we'll start to take

703

: 00:37:42

animal cruelty more seriously for sure.

704

: 00:37:45

Um, it doesn't, this stuff doesn't happen

in a vacuum and it doesn't happen for

705

: 00:37:49

animal abuse does not happen with a

healthy person or from a healthy mind.

706

: 00:37:53

DrG: Yeah.

707

: 00:37:54

And I think it's important for

parents to, to recognize signs.

708

: 00:37:58

You know, and not shy away from if

they see that their kids are perhaps

709

: 00:38:02

being abusive of animals, or, you

know, too many people feel shamed.

710

: 00:38:08

And it's like, well, I don't want

people to know that my kid is doing

711

: 00:38:10

this, or my kid is thinking these

things, and they don't do anything.

712

: 00:38:14

And then that allows it to escalate.

713

: 00:38:16

You know, we love our kids, we have to.

714

: 00:38:18

do better for them.

715

: 00:38:19

So really important for parents to

hone in into these little, little

716

: 00:38:24

things and understand that it, it's

small right now, but it can escalate

717

: 00:38:28

and their kid could become, you

know, somebody violent in the future.

718

: 00:38:34

Anna Ludvik: Some interesting, some

interesting work to be done there.

719

: 00:38:36

I just think.

720

: 00:38:37

So much of this stuff needs to be

better understood and better researched.

721

: 00:38:39

And, and first and foremost, better

recognized, we need to, you know, we

722

: 00:38:43

need to see the stuff that is happening

in plain sight because as much work as

723

: 00:38:46

we've done and the link coalition has

done, I still feel like this is a, this is

724

: 00:38:50

considered one of the lesser known issues

and one of the lesser known causes, and

725

: 00:38:54

it definitely needs greater visibility.

726

: 00:38:56

It is a really, really,

really important issue.

727

: 00:38:59

Uh, I love the work Matt Randall does.

728

: 00:39:01

Uh, it's, it's chilling sometimes to

sit through one of his presentations

729

: 00:39:05

because you just realize.

730

: 00:39:07

How many red flags we're missing

and how many how many opportunities

731

: 00:39:11

there are to make a safer world

and just what the correlations are.

732

: 00:39:18

The power, I think, and the

possibilities there when we listen

733

: 00:39:21

to it is what we really need to do

is a takeaway when we understand.

734

: 00:39:24

I mean, he's got some fantastic work

showing co occurrence of of animal and

735

: 00:39:28

human abuse and early warning systems.

736

: 00:39:31

We have some of the most serious crimes.

737

: 00:39:33

We had a case in Australia recently

of horrible siege that a family

738

: 00:39:42

attacked some police officers.

739

: 00:39:44

They had delusions and attacked

and killed some police officers.

740

: 00:39:47

delusions It was horrible.

741

: 00:39:49

It was a shock to the nation, uh, how

violent and how sudden and how, um,

742

: 00:39:53

without warning this, this attack was.

743

: 00:39:55

And then in the news, a couple of days

later, there was stories of this guy

744

: 00:39:59

who was, uh, you know, the perpetrator

was a principal at a children's school

745

: 00:40:04

and he used to sit in the playground

and slaughter pigs so that the pig blood

746

: 00:40:08

would roll onto the, onto the basketball

court while children were playing.

747

: 00:40:12

This was happening in plain sight.

748

: 00:40:14

This was open knowledge.

749

: 00:40:16

This was known, and this is one of the

problems with animal protection as well.

750

: 00:40:19

He kills an animal that is socially

acceptable to be able to kill.

751

: 00:40:24

So we look at a pig being killed and

go, , yeah, because pigs are an animal

752

: 00:40:28

that are socially acceptable to kill.

753

: 00:40:30

So we say that people eat, you know,

whether you're vegan or vegetarian or what

754

: 00:40:34

have you, we understand that, that pigs

are an animal that are commonly raised.

755

: 00:40:39

to be slaughtered.

756

: 00:40:40

And so if, if a pig is slaughtered,

it doesn't raise the same kind

757

: 00:40:44

of level of shock that it does to

slaughter a dog in plain sight.

758

: 00:40:49

I don't think that's something that people

would have ever looked past, but we have

759

: 00:40:52

to understand as well, it's not normal to

slaughter a pig in the middle of the road.

760

: 00:40:58

It's not normal to be okay and to have

that level of comfort with slaughtering

761

: 00:41:03

an animal in front of children.

762

: 00:41:04

This is just not something that we do.

763

: 00:41:06

And we need to lose that perception

that animal cruelty is okay for some

764

: 00:41:10

species and not for other species.

765

: 00:41:14

We need to realize that it doesn't

matter if the animal is a companion

766

: 00:41:18

animal, such as a dog or a cat,

or that animal is a farmed animal.

767

: 00:41:23

If that animal is being treated with

cruelty, that person is not safe.

768

: 00:41:27

If that animal is treating animal

slaughter as something that is not a big

769

: 00:41:31

deal, I don't care what the circumstances

are, if they're doing it as if it's

770

: 00:41:36

just something that you would do, like,

Don't, don't, I'm trying to think of

771

: 00:41:41

an example of something we do every

day, waving in the street, you know.

772

: 00:41:44

If we think it's that blasé,

there is something very wrong.

773

: 00:41:47

Um, and we need to be very careful,

I think it's a really important issue

774

: 00:41:51

to take into consideration, because

people think it was just a feral cat.

775

: 00:41:56

It was just a mouse.

776

: 00:41:57

It was just a feral rabbit.

777

: 00:41:59

It was, you know, insert word

feral or pest and it's okay.

778

: 00:42:02

It is never okay.

779

: 00:42:03

It is never healthy to take the life of

another being in a way that is done to

780

: 00:42:09

cause distress to another living being.

781

: 00:42:11

That is never okay.

782

: 00:42:13

The value of that animal's life is

not in this particular instance,

783

: 00:42:17

the core fundamental problem.

784

: 00:42:19

And this is something that

we see that happens a lot.

785

: 00:42:22

Within our sector as well is, is how

trivialized and minimalized it is if

786

: 00:42:27

that animal was a, was a so called

pest animal or an unwanted animal.

787

: 00:42:31

If a person is killing or harming an

animal in a way that is intended to

788

: 00:42:35

cause harm to another human being,

it doesn't matter if that was your

789

: 00:42:39

beloved pet or if that was a feral pig.

790

: 00:42:42

It is not okay.

791

: 00:42:43

It is dangerous behavior and is indicative

of some really troublesome behavior

792

: 00:42:47

you can expect in the very near future.

793

: 00:42:49

Um, and it's not okay for that animal.

794

: 00:42:51

I would never condone the killing

of any animal in a harmful way for,

795

: 00:42:57

for, you know, for whatever reason,

but I think that society has a, it's,

796

: 00:43:00

it's just a cat and we trivialize

cats, we demonize cats, we treat.

797

: 00:43:05

cruelty to cats as if it's so much less

important than, say, cruelty to dogs.

798

: 00:43:09

And in Australia, we have this horrible

reality where we think that it's

799

: 00:43:12

okay to kill kangaroos and you can

do horrible things to kangaroos and

800

: 00:43:19

children are taken out on kangaroos.

801

: 00:43:21

Waters and shown horrible

ways of killing kangaroos, but

802

: 00:43:25

it's entirely lawful killing.

803

: 00:43:27

And it might be used as a form of

punishment for that child or coercive

804

: 00:43:30

control for that child, but it's legal.

805

: 00:43:32

Just because it's legal.

806

: 00:43:33

We need to take a look at the

fat, or lawful, we should say.

807

: 00:43:37

Just because it's lawful doesn't

mean that there's not a form of

808

: 00:43:39

abuse that's going on there in the

killing or the harming of an animal.

809

: 00:43:43

Um, and I think that's a, that's.

810

: 00:43:45

Yet and yet another one of the many layers

that we need to start looking into is

811

: 00:43:49

is not just is it okay to slaughter that

animal, but how is that being slaughtered?

812

: 00:43:53

And is it being slaughtered in

a way that is trying to control

813

: 00:43:57

or coerce a person into bending

to the will of the perpetrator?

814

: 00:44:03

DrG: Yeah, I have a huge problem when,

when, when children are taken to hunting

815

: 00:44:08

type activities, because the adult may

realize or understand what's happening,

816

: 00:44:13

but that kid does not understand.

817

: 00:44:15

They, they're, they're not

processing the purpose.

818

: 00:44:18

They're just processing the action.

819

: 00:44:20

And if anything, it can lead to a

sense of , Desensitization, right?

820

: 00:44:24

So they, they start losing care for

the action of killing that animal.

821

: 00:44:30

And it's not just, it's not a huge

leap to go from being desensitized,

822

: 00:44:34

from killing a cat to then killing

something bigger and then extending

823

: 00:44:39

it, expanding it to killing a human.

824

: 00:44:42

Anna Ludvik: One of the things that

keeps me awake at night, I mentioned

825

: 00:44:45

before that, you know, the risk of

lethality, the other thing is something

826

: 00:44:50

I put to me many, many years ago and

it really stuck with me is that when a

827

: 00:44:53

child is born, the first thing that we

do is we ask them to relate to animals

828

: 00:44:58

and they will relate to animals well

before they relate to the adult world.

829

: 00:45:03

So the first thing we do is we

might give them a teddy bear.

830

: 00:45:05

Or we might decorate their nursery

with baby ducks, or we might give them,

831

: 00:45:10

you know, you know, a rubber ducky

for their bath or, you know, all of

832

: 00:45:14

the, all of the characters have got

this sort of infantile animal sort of

833

: 00:45:17

presence to them in their, in their life.

834

: 00:45:20

And so children do see themselves in

animals and they see, they relate to the

835

: 00:45:23

animal world around them or the child, the

childlike innocence of an animal before

836

: 00:45:27

they ever relate to the adult world.

837

: 00:45:30

And so when we do take a child's.

838

: 00:45:32

And when we do traumatize an animal

or hurt an animal, we might as well

839

: 00:45:35

just be hurting the child because

they are relating to and empathizing

840

: 00:45:38

with that, with that animal.

841

: 00:45:39

And so I don't disagree with you at all

with what you were saying about hunting

842

: 00:45:43

and how damaging that can be for a young

mind or any form of, we desensitize

843

: 00:45:48

children all the time to animal cruelty,

telling them what is and is not okay.

844

: 00:45:52

And it can have a real effect on, on

children's ability to form empathy.

845

: 00:45:55

And it can have an effect on

children's self esteem as well.

846

: 00:45:58

And that's like a whole

minefield that we can.

847

: 00:46:00

Do a whole separate discussion on

another time and probably with an

848

: 00:46:03

expert better qualified than myself

to talk about child psychology.

849

: 00:46:07

But what I was talking about as well

before was, was quite intentional

850

: 00:46:10

abuse of that child's naivety and

quite intentional abuse of that

851

: 00:46:14

child's psychological wellbeing.

852

: 00:46:16

Whereas if the child did not acquiesce

to the wishes of the perpetrator,

853

: 00:46:21

I'm going to take you out and

show you what I will do to this

854

: 00:46:24

animal and kill it in front of you.

855

: 00:46:25

I know that you don't want to go.

856

: 00:46:26

I know that you're

screaming, stop daddy, stop.

857

: 00:46:29

I don't want this to happen or

whoever the perpetrator is, but

858

: 00:46:32

they're going to do it as a form of

control and punishment for the child.

859

: 00:46:38

, and, uh, and the child will be

traumatized, will be horrified,

860

: 00:46:41

uh, will be distressed.

861

: 00:46:43

But what can they do?

862

: 00:46:44

They turn around and dad's

like, well, I'm a hunter.

863

: 00:46:45

It's my job.

864

: 00:46:46

That's what I do.

865

: 00:46:46

Or this is lawful.

866

: 00:46:48

And people, what, what

can you say to that?

867

: 00:46:50

What defense does that child have?

868

: 00:46:52

Who's going to take that child's back?

869

: 00:46:53

And it's really important that we start

to have those conversations in a broader

870

: 00:46:56

sense about the psychological trauma that

animal abuse inflicts on children and,

871

: 00:47:01

uh, and understand it might be lawful.

872

: 00:47:03

It doesn't make it right.

873

: 00:47:05

DrG: Yeah, I think that we're starting

to see it here in cases of, for instance,

874

: 00:47:09

like dogfighting, that it's a, it's now

a felony in all 50 states to engage in

875

: 00:47:16

dogfighting, but then it's also a felony

to take a child to be a spectator in it,

876

: 00:47:21

because they are realizing the damages

that, that just seeing that kind of

877

: 00:47:26

violence, you know, results in a child.

878

: 00:47:29

And children that are...

879

: 00:47:30

Or that experiences are more likely

to grow up and then be abusers

880

: 00:47:36

and, and commit crimes themselves.

881

: 00:47:39

Anna Ludvik: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

882

: 00:47:41

Absolutely.

883

: 00:47:42

It's great to hear that there's

more of a conversation around that.

884

: 00:47:45

It's critical.

885

: 00:47:47

.

DrG: So, , where is your organization now, and where do you see it going from here?

886

: 00:47:53

Anna Ludvik: Oh, that's

a really hard question.

887

: 00:47:55

Oh my goodness.

888

: 00:47:58

Oh my goodness, we've just

been through absolute storm.

889

: 00:48:01

We're just on the, we're just like in the,

we've just been through an absolute storm.

890

: 00:48:05

We, we ran out of money 18 months ago.

891

: 00:48:07

We were, we were facing collapse actually,

because we just didn't have any funds.

892

: 00:48:11

And I just, I just went.

893

: 00:48:14

Gave up my all and threw my everything

into it and went cap in hand to the

894

: 00:48:18

New South Wales government and which

is one of the states in Australia,

895

: 00:48:22

uh, and begged for some money.

896

: 00:48:24

I just said, it's this or we can't exist.

897

: 00:48:26

And they, to their enormous credit

and to the incredible advocacy of, of,

898

: 00:48:31

of Emma Hearst of the animal justice

party and, and, and her persistence,

899

: 00:48:36

we were, uh, Lucky and securing

some funds, but we only got those

900

: 00:48:41

funds significant operational funds.

901

: 00:48:44

We only got those funds in

July 1st of July this year.

902

: 00:48:47

So we have been since 1st of July

being trying to restart our core

903

: 00:48:52

activities and pick ourselves up and

get out there and be of service again.

904

: 00:48:57

So at the moment, what we're

doing is we are we are surviving

905

: 00:49:02

and we have funding for the next

two years and nothing after that.

906

: 00:49:06

So sure.

907

: 00:49:06

It's just looking at looking at,

um, at making sure that we do

908

: 00:49:10

the most effective project that

we can for the next two years.

909

: 00:49:13

And I think, as I mentioned earlier.

910

: 00:49:16

My passion is to look at systems

and ensuring that unnecessary

911

: 00:49:21

roadblocks are permanently removed.

912

: 00:49:23

So that no matter what happens in the

future, it's a permanent impact and

913

: 00:49:26

permanent change and embedding into as

many minds as we can, the importance of

914

: 00:49:31

understanding the link between domestic

and family violence and, and really

915

: 00:49:34

embedding that knowledge, inculcating

that knowledge into the minds of.

916

: 00:49:38

service organizations that animals

must be included in safety planning and

917

: 00:49:43

helping those organizations to have the

safety planning tools, the education,

918

: 00:49:47

the training that they need to know

how to, in the very first instance,

919

: 00:49:50

provide for animals for something

that we get so commonly because these

920

: 00:49:54

issues are trivialized as it's 5 p.

921

: 00:49:56

m.

922

: 00:49:57

On a Friday afternoon, I've got

this dog and there's nowhere to go.

923

: 00:50:02

Can you take it?

924

: 00:50:03

And the answer is no, we can't.

925

: 00:50:05

But if you told me about this

six weeks ago when you started

926

: 00:50:08

working with this case, then the

answers would have been multiple.

927

: 00:50:11

There would have been so much we could

do if you had at the point of intake

928

: 00:50:16

accounted for taking knowledge of the

animals that were in that person's care.

929

: 00:50:20

You have a whole host of

options available to you.

930

: 00:50:24

But if you leave it to the 11th

hour, there is nothing except

931

: 00:50:27

devastation and heartbreak.

932

: 00:50:28

And so one of the things that I

hear commonly is for people who were

933

: 00:50:31

forced to surrender their animals.

934

: 00:50:33

Many, many, many years ago, you know, up

to 30 years ago, I've heard these stories.

935

: 00:50:37

It's the hardest thing sometimes for

those people to forgive themselves

936

: 00:50:41

for, and to get past that they said

that they abandoned their best friend.

937

: 00:50:44

And I can't imagine, you know, the

relationship that I have with my animals.

938

: 00:50:49

If I ever abandoned them, I know

I would never, no matter what the

939

: 00:50:53

circumstances for me personally,

I know I would never recover.

940

: 00:50:56

From that, because the bond that I

have with them, they are my everything.

941

: 00:50:59

They are my world there.

942

: 00:51:01

You know, I know that, you

know, I have children now.

943

: 00:51:04

I have living children as well.

944

: 00:51:05

And I, you know, I would, you know,

I don't need to tell any parent or

945

: 00:51:09

anybody really that I would, you

know, die for my children, of course.

946

: 00:51:13

But how important my pets are, like.

947

: 00:51:15

My animals are to me, it's just as that

sense of duty is, is just as strong.

948

: 00:51:20

It's different, but it's just as strong.

949

: 00:51:22

Um, and I, I never want anybody to have

to, to have to go through, to have to go

950

: 00:51:27

through that, and I know that I couldn't.

951

: 00:51:29

I know that I've been tried

and tested and couldn't.

952

: 00:51:31

But, um, so that's what

we're looking at doing.

953

: 00:51:35

Uh, and then always looking

for projects that are the best

954

: 00:51:37

way to get those messages out.

955

: 00:51:38

I have, you know, there's some really

exciting things that we have in the

956

: 00:51:41

pipeline and I'm so desperate to

tell you about them, but I can't

957

: 00:51:44

because we haven't, we haven't got

the funding to get them going and we

958

: 00:51:47

haven't got them approved through.

959

: 00:51:48

The board and through, um, you know,

we were still in planning stages for

960

: 00:51:52

a lot of really exciting things, but

we have some really exciting projects

961

: 00:51:55

working with animal organizations

and working with domestic and family

962

: 00:51:59

violence organizations in education

and training and this work that we do.

963

: 00:52:04

That we've been calling aware

arc, which is a 360 degree look at

964

: 00:52:08

communities and going into communities

and resourcing the entire community.

965

: 00:52:13

So, in every aspect of their services

to make sure that human and animal

966

: 00:52:17

services are connected and working

together and know who they can refer

967

: 00:52:20

to, how they can refer to them, what

kind of information the other person

968

: 00:52:24

needs, how, what they're going to do

with that information, how to keep a

969

: 00:52:27

person safe, because, you know, there's

this whole aspect we haven't spoken to.

970

: 00:52:31

In this conversation, which is about a

human safety for animal services that are

971

: 00:52:37

dealing with animals that are victims of

domestic and family violence because human

972

: 00:52:43

like animal rescue services often run

by volunteers that don't have extensive

973

: 00:52:47

training that don't have access to safety

planning mechanisms and tools and the

974

: 00:52:52

risk that vets and animal services are

put into when they are dealing with

975

: 00:52:56

these very dangerous perpetrators.

976

: 00:52:57

I mean, look, how long do you

want this interview to be?

977

: 00:53:00

But okay.

978

: 00:53:01

When we start talking about an animal

that is surrendered to an animal

979

: 00:53:06

shelter, um, sometimes by a, a person

experiencing violence, and that

980

: 00:53:13

animal is owned by a perpetrator of

violence, and then, then, then I don't

981

: 00:53:18

know how it works in the States, but

here, if the name's on the microchip

982

: 00:53:21

and they are the registered owner.

983

: 00:53:23

Then that shelter cannot assume

the ownership of that animal

984

: 00:53:27

unless they have permission from

the person named on the microchip.

985

: 00:53:30

So even though in good faith, a victim

has said, I can't take the animal.

986

: 00:53:34

Please look after it.

987

: 00:53:36

They're then obliged because they've

got the property of another being to

988

: 00:53:38

get in touch with the perpetrator.

989

: 00:53:39

That animal goes straight back to the

perpetrator and that victim survivor

990

: 00:53:43

is in the same position that they left

a couple of days earlier or that day

991

: 00:53:47

of having them go, I've got your dog.

992

: 00:53:49

I'm going to harm your dog.

993

: 00:53:50

You better get home with the kids.

994

: 00:53:52

You know, you're right

back into that position.

995

: 00:53:53

But then they've got, but then

if they do take on the animal.

996

: 00:53:57

And there's a perpetrator that's looking

for that animal because what they're

997

: 00:54:00

trying to do is they're trying to find the

victim survivors whereabouts or they're

998

: 00:54:03

trying to harm them, then those animal

service workers are also in harm's way

999

: 00:54:07

with some very dangerous perpetrators.

: 1000

00:54:09,703 --> 00:54:12,163

And if they don't necessarily know

about that because they haven't.

: 1001

00:54:12,903 --> 00:54:14,593

They don't have the full picture.

: 1002

00:54:14,593 --> 00:54:15,783

They're just there on the front line.

: 1003

00:54:16,213 --> 00:54:18,833

And so it's a really dangerous

and scary situation for them.

: 1004

00:54:18,833 --> 00:54:20,243

There has been cases in the U.

: 1005

00:54:20,243 --> 00:54:20,403

S.

: 1006

00:54:20,403 --> 00:54:24,713

of vets that have been attacked, uh,

with domestic and family, through

: 1007

00:54:24,713 --> 00:54:27,593

domestic and family violence and

perpetrators coming in to try to

: 1008

00:54:27,613 --> 00:54:29,943

reclaim a dog from a victim survivor.

: 1009

00:54:30,223 --> 00:54:32,833

I think there was even a vet that

was killed in the United States.

: 1010

00:54:33,293 --> 00:54:35,563

And there's been panic

buttons and many assaults.

: 1011

00:54:35,653 --> 00:54:40,698

Um, But we know that often vets

suspect domestic and family violence

: 1012

00:54:40,698 --> 00:54:43,018

and they don't know what to do about

it because they have the animal

: 1013

00:54:43,018 --> 00:54:44,428

training and not the human training.

: 1014

00:54:44,688 --> 00:54:49,248

So Lucy's project kind of likes to

look at that from a 360 degree view

: 1015

00:54:49,248 --> 00:54:53,428

and go, Hey, both you, that we need to

be a conduit of communication between

: 1016

00:54:53,658 --> 00:54:55,628

those human and animal services.

: 1017

00:54:55,628 --> 00:54:56,548

We need to be working together.

: 1018

00:54:56,548 --> 00:54:58,738

We need to be keeping

everybody in a story safe.

: 1019

00:54:58,738 --> 00:55:01,418

We need to make sure that the animal

is not a mobile tracking device.

: 1020

00:55:01,998 --> 00:55:06,158

For the victim survivor, and we

need to make sure that the workers

: 1021

00:55:06,168 --> 00:55:08,938

themselves aren't aren't in

harm's way because they're in good

: 1022

00:55:08,938 --> 00:55:12,598

faith taking on an animal that a

perpetrator is interested in finding.

: 1023

00:55:13,078 --> 00:55:16,658

And this is just like a minefield of

just so many different issues that

: 1024

00:55:16,658 --> 00:55:19,408

we could talk about with traceability

of animals we haven't even gotten

: 1025

00:55:19,458 --> 00:55:22,318

into how difficult that is with, you

know, especially in Australia with

: 1026

00:55:22,318 --> 00:55:26,728

very strict biosecurity laws and trace

an animal traceability is incredibly

: 1027

00:55:26,728 --> 00:55:29,148

important for for biosecurity reasons.

: 1028

00:55:29,378 --> 00:55:31,018

But then if that is a companion animal.

: 1029

00:55:31,403 --> 00:55:35,113

And you basically become like,

very, very hard to hide your

: 1030

00:55:35,113 --> 00:55:36,843

whereabouts or to do things in secret.

: 1031

00:55:37,263 --> 00:55:39,443

So there's, there's a lot

of issues there to consider.

: 1032

00:55:39,443 --> 00:55:42,293

And these are all the things that we

think about because it's also really

: 1033

00:55:42,293 --> 00:55:47,443

important for us to not sideline, um,

rural regional and remote living people

: 1034

00:55:47,543 --> 00:55:51,443

and the particular issues that they are

facing in their communities as well.

: 1035

00:55:52,213 --> 00:55:54,793

So it's a lot of work there

to be done on, on, on.

: 1036

00:55:55,293 --> 00:55:58,623

Those systems getting information out

there, creating resources, creating

: 1037

00:55:58,623 --> 00:56:03,443

tools, um, and supporting organizations to

upskill and strengthen their own supports.

: 1038

00:56:05,193 --> 00:56:05,513

Where are we going?

: 1039

00:56:08,948 --> 00:56:09,948

DrG: Just, just a little bit.

: 1040

00:56:09,948 --> 00:56:10,208

Right.

: 1041

00:56:11,098 --> 00:56:15,628

No, but that's, that's great because as

the, one of the things that I do, I have

: 1042

00:56:15,628 --> 00:56:19,588

a mobile veterinary clinic and we travel

through a lot of rural areas, offering

: 1043

00:56:19,588 --> 00:56:24,638

affordable and accessible care because

it with, with animal, animal neglect, you

: 1044

00:56:24,638 --> 00:56:29,058

see intentional neglect, which I see as

a forensic veterinarian, but then as a

: 1045

00:56:29,098 --> 00:56:33,078

regular veterinarian, I see unintentional

neglect, just people that can not

: 1046

00:56:33,248 --> 00:56:34,758

afford to take care of their animals.

: 1047

00:56:35,078 --> 00:56:35,468

So.

: 1048

00:56:36,043 --> 00:56:40,303

It is very similar to kind of like

a project that we are trying to get

: 1049

00:56:40,303 --> 00:56:46,243

together, which is involving social

workers and then going to these areas that

: 1050

00:56:46,583 --> 00:56:50,503

are veterinary deserts and the animals

have no care, but then also the people

: 1051

00:56:50,513 --> 00:56:53,063

have no resources so that we can go in.

: 1052

00:56:53,433 --> 00:56:58,343

Help the animals, but then help

the people be able to sustain the,

: 1053

00:56:58,353 --> 00:57:00,313

the care for their animals, right?

: 1054

00:57:00,643 --> 00:57:05,623

Instead of just trying to go and point

fingers and say you should not have a dog

: 1055

00:57:05,623 --> 00:57:09,853

because you're not taking proper care of

Them is how can I help you keep this dog?

: 1056

00:57:10,093 --> 00:57:13,733

Because I know that this dog is an

important source of support for you and

: 1057

00:57:13,733 --> 00:57:17,488

you are an important source of support

for this animal Like the dog doesn't care.

: 1058

00:57:17,488 --> 00:57:20,088

The dog or the cat doesn't care that

the owner doesn't have any money, right?

: 1059

00:57:20,118 --> 00:57:23,318

The dog or the cat doesn't care that

the owner can't buy them the best food.

: 1060

00:57:23,538 --> 00:57:24,808

They just care that they're there.

: 1061

00:57:25,158 --> 00:57:29,038

So just, you know, that whole One

Health approach, the taking care of the

: 1062

00:57:29,038 --> 00:57:30,698

people and taking care of the animal.

: 1063

00:57:30,978 --> 00:57:35,078

So I see that, you know, kind of like

the project and where you see yourself

: 1064

00:57:35,078 --> 00:57:37,398

going, even though it's different.

: 1065

00:57:37,943 --> 00:57:43,763

Aspects of human and an animal care,

but it's still, you know, looking at

: 1066

00:57:43,833 --> 00:57:48,323

everything together because we cannot

take the animal away from the person

: 1067

00:57:48,323 --> 00:57:49,633

and the person away from the animal.

: 1068

00:57:49,643 --> 00:57:54,593

Like it's all one, uh, to, to the words

of Alicia Kennedy, they're one unit

: 1069

00:57:54,743 --> 00:57:56,273

and you have to treat them as such.

: 1070

00:57:57,258 --> 00:57:59,528

Anna Ludvik: Alicia Kennedy's

amazing, the work that she's doing

: 1071

00:57:59,538 --> 00:58:00,608

through, through Cherish Pets.

: 1072

00:58:00,608 --> 00:58:04,128

She's just such an inspiration to

me and such an asset to Australia.

: 1073

00:58:04,738 --> 00:58:08,288

Um, as is, I don't know if you've

come across the amazing, um, Jennifer

: 1074

00:58:08,288 --> 00:58:11,078

Howard of Safe Pets, Safe Families

in Australia, just the most amazing

: 1075

00:58:11,078 --> 00:58:12,178

people working in the sector.

: 1076

00:58:12,538 --> 00:58:16,338

But I mean, I just love this work

that Alicia and others are doing.

: 1077

00:58:16,388 --> 00:58:19,108

Um, there's, I could, I, there's a

lot of people that I could name here

: 1078

00:58:19,138 --> 00:58:20,778

in the social veterinary work space.

: 1079

00:58:21,158 --> 00:58:25,558

Um, and it's just, it's just so important

that we understand that One Health idea

: 1080

00:58:25,558 --> 00:58:27,158

and we understand how integrated they are.

: 1081

00:58:27,158 --> 00:58:30,488

And I'm so excited that this entire

profession now is coming into

: 1082

00:58:30,708 --> 00:58:34,438

being to, to better support people

with animals and understanding the

: 1083

00:58:34,438 --> 00:58:38,058

human animal bond and its absolute

centrality in, in, in welfare.

: 1084

00:58:38,708 --> 00:58:42,871

DrG: So if anybody listening is interested

in learning more about your organization

: 1085

00:58:42,871 --> 00:58:47,081

and perhaps helping with donations or

funding some of these projects, how can

: 1086

00:58:47,081 --> 00:58:49,071

they find out more about Lucy's project?

: 1087

00:58:50,016 --> 00:58:51,566

Anna Ludvik: Yeah, so many ways.

: 1088

00:58:51,786 --> 00:58:52,826

Thank you for asking that.

: 1089

00:58:53,466 --> 00:58:57,906

Um, Always, uh, we, we do maintain

a website which is helpful for

: 1090

00:58:57,906 --> 00:59:00,666

international people if they want to

know about us at any time of the day.

: 1091

00:59:00,726 --> 00:59:03,526

Um, so that's lucysproject.com.au.

: 1092

00:59:03,756 --> 00:59:07,026

Even if you just go to lucy project.com,

you'll, it'll direct you to us.

: 1093

00:59:07,476 --> 00:59:11,806

Um, you can always email me

at info@lucysproject.com.

: 1094

00:59:12,381 --> 00:59:15,001

And, um, and get in

touch with us that way.

: 1095

00:59:15,001 --> 00:59:17,661

Check us out on Instagram or on Facebook.

: 1096

00:59:17,711 --> 00:59:21,011

We will be increasing our social media

presence and the information that we

: 1097

00:59:21,011 --> 00:59:24,791

share that way over the coming weeks

as well, so that you'll be able to stay

: 1098

00:59:24,791 --> 00:59:28,631

informed of what we're up to and some

more information as it comes to hand.

: 1099

00:59:28,971 --> 00:59:31,921

I always welcome any kind of

email if you want to get in touch

: 1100

00:59:31,921 --> 00:59:32,951

with me and talk about anything.

: 1101

00:59:33,711 --> 00:59:36,061

You can always catch

me, catch me by email.

: 1102

00:59:36,291 --> 00:59:39,401

And we always really welcome, um,

donations or people that would

: 1103

00:59:39,401 --> 00:59:43,341

like to, particularly donations

that are tied to awareness raising.

: 1104

00:59:43,381 --> 00:59:46,011

So we like really encourage people, would

you like to have a morning tea at your

: 1105

00:59:46,011 --> 00:59:47,781

workplace and talk about these issues?

: 1106

00:59:47,781 --> 00:59:50,611

Or is there somewhere that you'd

like to kind of platform this stuff?

: 1107

00:59:50,611 --> 00:59:54,831

Maybe a charity fundraiser for a community

event where this can just be an issue

: 1108

00:59:54,831 --> 00:59:58,331

that we start to talk about and start

the discussion about the importance

: 1109

00:59:58,331 --> 01:00:00,141

of human safety and animal safety.

: 1110

01:00:00,421 --> 01:00:03,161

Um, and if anybody is

interested in doing that, I'm.

: 1111

01:00:03,256 --> 01:00:06,826

Always super keen to hear, especially

when there's an awareness raising

: 1112

01:00:06,856 --> 01:00:09,926

aspect in that, if you'd like to get

involved, wherever you are in the

: 1113

01:00:09,926 --> 01:00:11,126

world, we'd love to hear from you.

: 1114

01:00:12,326 --> 01:00:12,906

DrG: I love it.

: 1115

01:00:12,976 --> 01:00:14,096

I love education.

: 1116

01:00:14,096 --> 01:00:16,556

I mean, I think that that's

the way to move forward, right?

: 1117

01:00:16,556 --> 01:00:19,426

Like the more people know,

the better they can do.

: 1118

01:00:19,826 --> 01:00:21,966

I, it's been amazing having you.

: 1119

01:00:22,556 --> 01:00:25,256

As a guest, I've loved this

conversation and everything that

: 1120

01:00:25,256 --> 01:00:27,316

you, that, that you have to offer.

: 1121

01:00:27,656 --> 01:00:31,156

And I want to thank you for everything

that you do for people and for animals.

: 1122

01:00:31,526 --> 01:00:34,906

Uh, is there anything, any words

of wisdom that you want to tell our

: 1123

01:00:34,906 --> 01:00:37,526

listeners on, you know, as, as we close?

: 1124

01:00:38,561 --> 01:00:39,471

Anna Ludvik: Oh, my goodness.

: 1125

01:00:39,471 --> 01:00:42,711

You know, it's hard to stop me talking

when you start, but when I start, but

: 1126

01:00:42,841 --> 01:00:45,761

you know, the first thing I want to just

echo really, it's just how grateful I

: 1127

01:00:45,761 --> 01:00:50,021

am to you for platforming this issue

for the incredible work that you do

: 1128

01:00:50,021 --> 01:00:51,601

and getting the information out there.

: 1129

01:00:51,601 --> 01:00:53,501

And just a huge thank you

to you and everyone that's

: 1130

01:00:53,501 --> 01:00:56,621

listening to this, especially

listening to it right to the end.

: 1131

01:00:56,951 --> 01:01:01,121

Thanks for taking the time and giving this

issue some of your space and attention.

: 1132

01:01:01,461 --> 01:01:06,041

If you could go and tell one person

or two people about the link.

: 1133

01:01:06,511 --> 01:01:10,621

And you could go out there, you're

going to have a really big impact on our

: 1134

01:01:10,621 --> 01:01:13,671

awareness globally, on the importance

of these issues, doesn't matter where

: 1135

01:01:13,671 --> 01:01:17,331

you are in the world, it's going to

be the same issue wherever there is a

: 1136

01:01:17,331 --> 01:01:21,171

human life, an animal life in danger,

there's going to be human life at risk.

: 1137

01:01:21,701 --> 01:01:24,651

So thank you so much for forming

issue in our organization.

: 1138

01:01:25,696 --> 01:01:26,836

DrG: And thank you.

: 1139

01:01:26,856 --> 01:01:28,526

And hopefully we can have you again.

: 1140

01:01:28,526 --> 01:01:32,536

Once you start some of these amazing

projects, you, we can have you

: 1141

01:01:32,536 --> 01:01:36,806

again as a guest and talk about

where, you know, where you are and

: 1142

01:01:36,816 --> 01:01:38,106

where you're going at that point,

: 1143

01:01:38,806 --> 01:01:41,096

Anna Ludvik: I'd fall over myself

to have another chat with you.

: 1144

01:01:41,106 --> 01:01:41,966

Thank you so much.

: 1145

01:01:42,046 --> 01:01:43,326

It's been really enjoyable.

: 1146

01:01:44,056 --> 01:01:44,736

DrG: Fantastic.

: 1147

01:01:44,746 --> 01:01:45,726

Well, thank you everybody.

: 1148

01:01:45,726 --> 01:01:48,306

That's listening and thank

you so much for caring.

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