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In this episode...

AI, Identity, and the Church With Christopher Benek

https://faithfulontheclock.com/ai-identity-and-the-church-with-christopher-benek

How should we use AI in our work, and how it might influence our faith? Episode 161 of Faithful on the Clock welcomes techno-theologian and pastor Christopher Benek for answers.

Timestamps:

[00:04] - Intro

[00:36] - Christopher’s background

[03:33] - How Christopher bridges ministry and AI work

[09:05] - How we can create ethics around AI that are good for both us and God

[15:12] - How we can separate what we could do with AI from what we’re called to do

[27:51] - How we can ensure the time we get back from AI is joyful

[36:03] - Making the goal of the church to not have single people be the value proposition

[41:35] - Seeing the entire person on top of AI

[48:12] - How to create an environment where people feel safe enough to bring in alternative perspectives

[53:52] - How to find out more about Christopher

[54:31] - Prayer

[55:46] - Outro/What’s coming up next

Key takeaways:

• AI isn’t primarily a technology question. It’s a formation question. Ask yourself who we are becoming and what AI is forming us to value. The ethical question isn’t simply “Can AI do this?”, but whether what we’re doing aligns with Jesus’ teachings and God’s purposes.
• AI can be a tool for stewardship, not just for efficiency. AI can reduce administrative and information-gathering work, which can give us more time for relational work. But that requires discernment. AI output isn’t automatically trustworthy simply because it’s fast.
• Human experience still matters when evaluating AI. AI doesn’t replace the wisdom we accumulate through successes, failures, and context. But it can give us more time to exercise the wisdom we gain.
• The church shouldn’t be dependent on one person. Everyone has a ministry in their own way. Jesus equipped people to participate instead of centralizing all ministry in Himself.
• AI can either reinforce or undermine the communal model God designed. The goal isn’t to make any leader the sole source of value. Technology should help create systems through which the broader community can use its gifts and serve one another.
• Calling requires discernment, not simply following your potential. There’s a distinction between what you’re capable of doing, what you enjoy, and what God is actually calling you to do. Test that sense of calling against Scripture, trusted Christian community, time with God, and attentiveness to how God is moving.
• The “side quests” of life can actually prepare us for our calling. Our current work might not be our final vocation. But we shouldn’t minimize what we’re doing through it. Different experiences give us different pieces of what we’ll eventually need.
• Don’t overlook mundane sources of joy. We don’t have to justify everything through productivity. Don’t focus so much on the eventual goal that we miss the good God is giving us right now.
• AI isn’t inherently the enemy—or inherently the answer. AI can cause harm, but it can also support the church. The important thing is critical thinking about the ramifications of using it, rather than adopting a blanket “use AI” or “don’t use AI’ position.

• Church Leader’s Guide to Artificial Intelligence: Understanding AI’s Impact on Ministry, Theology, and Culture: Benek, Christopher: 9781971082004: Amazon.com: Books
• Christopher Benek | Techno-Theologian Author and Speaker

CTAs:

• Evaluate the areas in which you currently use AI. Do the intentions and results reflect the fruit of the Spirit and what Jesus calls us to do?
• Consider your side quests. How might God be preparing you with tasks and opportunities that aren’t your primary vision or goal?
• Analyze your application of discernment. Where are you using your God-given wisdom, and where are you unnecessarily outsourcing to AI?

What’s coming up next:

Most professionals like a good framework. Episode 162 of Faithful on the Clock explores why the Lord’s Prayer is the only one you’ll ever really need.

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[Thibodeaux]

Hello, everybody out there, and welcome to Faithful on the Clock, the podcast for Christian professionals where all the dishes get washed to get your faith and work aligned. I’m your host, Wanda Thibodeaux, and today I’m welcoming guest Christopher Benek. We’re gonna be talking about AI — not how to use it for efficiency or gain an edge, but how it’s impacting our ethics, calling, intentionality, and joy. Let’s jump in.

[Thibodeaux]

Hello, listeners. I'm Wanda Thibodeaux, your host, and this is Faithful on the Clock. Joining me today is special guest Christopher Benek. Chris currently serves as a pastor at First Miami Presbyterian Church in Florida. As the author of the Church Leader's Guide to Artificial Intelligence, he has been following the development of AI for well over a decade. Now, we've talked a little bit about AI on the show before, specifically around wisdom versus knowledge, but I wanted to dive a little bit deeper and get an expert's opinion about how this surge of AI is really affecting our work and the church. So, Chris, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it.

[Benek]

Thanks for having me.

[Thibodeaux]

All right. So I really want to just start the show as I usually do with guests — just give me a little bit about your background, so listeners know who you are.

[Benek]

Sure. So I grew up in Ohio. I didn't particularly grow up in a religious family. I was going to a little school in Ohio called Hiram College, and I was a pre-law student. About three quarters of the way into my college studies, I was introduced to the church, and I had this kind of transformative thing that happened to me. And I ended up going to Princeton Theological Seminary, and so I studied a Master of Divinity there, and then a Master of Theology that focused in ethics. I then met the woman who would become my wife, and we got married, and we moved to Ohio, and I served a church there for seven years, and then we accepted a call on Hilton Head Island at a church for five years, and then we moved to Fort Lauderdale and were at a church there about four and a half years, and then we've come all the way down to Miami. Every time we thought we couldn't move further south, God — I told my wife she's got to stop daring God to send us further south. We're going to end up in Ecuador. But now we're in Miami and serving at First Miami Presbyterian Church. And then in the middle of all that, I had done a Doctor of Ministry at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and went through and was studying there and completed that degree, and focused on emerging technology, and particularly on what that meant as we think about human enhancement and artificial intelligence. And I had some press that happened with that and ended up kind of in the news all over the world, and then started a nonprofit called Co-Creators that was funded and that I worked for for a year before coming to First Miami. And that's something now that we have now spun back up as we've continued to talk about AI and how churches and people in the church are thinking about using AI responsibly. And so, that brings us really to current day.

[Thibodeaux]

Okay. So we've got a good sense of how you got into the ministry, but how are you bridging the ministry with all of this AI work? What really got you interested in that? Because you have been called, in various places, a techno-theologian. What does that even mean?

[Benek]

Well, it's just somebody who thinks about how God and technology are intersected, right? And the thing that I've really thought about quite a bit — and gained some notoriety on — is thinking about our relationship to God and what that means. And so, the typical thing I do with people is give them just a little perspective.

So, when we think about who God is, I think most reasonable people would be willing to admit that they're not God, and that means we're something other than God. And I joke with people and say I'm available for counseling if you think otherwise, but we're not God. So, compared to God, we are alternative intelligence, right? And we a lot of times use that word artificial. But folks who are really in the field of artificial intelligence, they really have questions about the word artificial — like, what does that actually mean? Because a lot of times, we think that means fake or falsely made, and frankly, they have as much conversation about what does it mean to actually have intelligence, which is a whole other thing.

But if we start to look at ourselves as an alternative intelligence — like, we look at other animals. I have cats at my house, and they're certainly an alternative intelligence. They behave differently than us, but they're certainly intelligent. They show affection. They indicate when they're hungry, when they have a need. And we have relationships with our cats, and most people do with their pets or with other animals.

And so, the question then becomes, well, if we're alternative intelligence to God, and we acknowledge that there are other alternative intelligences to God, and then if we look into the Scriptures even further, we see even there are other things that we talk about all the time.

So, for example, angels. We talk about angels, and I love — we have these conversations about angels like we know exactly what they are, but when you challenge people on what is an angel actually, they don't really know. There are biblical descriptions that tend to be pretty scary, actually — and so much to the point that when angels engage with humans, one of the first things they say is, do not be afraid. Do not fear. Because they're intimidating. But it means there's other kinds of intelligence out there, other alternative intelligence. Now, whether an angel is a bona fide alien or an interdimensional being or what — I don't know. It’s the truth. But we acknowledge these things.

And so, when we start thinking about things that we can create, co-create with God — I think that word is very — it’s important we understand what that means. Co-creation doesn't mean equal to; it means with, right? Like a child with their parent, for example. And so, but when we think about that, then we start thinking about AI. I started to think about, well, what does it mean for us to have the ability to create things with God? And obviously, we know we have some independence in this because we can create things that separate us from God also, and so, how is it that we create things that align with God?

And then when we think about AI and the potential of AI, there's a whole conversation about are we going to be able to create something that is artificial general intelligence that has some kind of sentience, if you will, and I would say I don't know. I think most reasonable people would say they don't know, but I would not say it's outside the realm of possibility for what we know from our Creator God.

If we're creating with God, I don't want to be the person who puts a limitation on what God might be able to do. And as we kind of enter into that, I find that really fascinating because one of the things it suggests is that even with our creative powers — and we've seen this through technology throughout the ages — humans have really been able to radically improve their own condition if they use technology in positive ways.

And I actually think that goes along with Christ's redemptive purposes in the world. I think Christ calls us to help redeem and renew and make better — on earth as it is in heaven — and I think technology is one of the ways that we do that. And so, for us to begin to think about that in ways where we don't just discard technological progress, or look at it as something separate from the church and our calling, but we look at it as part of the divine call for us to be caretakers of creation.

[Thibodeaux]

Okay, so if we are caretakers, we have to think about what we are taking care of and for what purpose, which then brings in this whole ethical rules that we have to follow. Because clearly, God has His own too. So, what would your take be on what is the biggest priority in terms of getting that aligned? Like, if we're going to use AI, how do we create ethics around that that are not only good for people, but are good for God — that serve Him?

[Benek]

Right. Well, I mean, I think this is the big question, because a lot of the people who are framing the AI conversation are not necessarily adherents to Christ's redemptive purposes. So, this is where we have questions about, well, what is that going to mean? And I would go so far as to say that many of the people who claim to adhere to Christ's redemptive purposes don't always represent Jesus well. I think the biggest critique I hear of the church — which I think is a legitimate one — is that it's not that people don't trust Jesus or God; it's that they don't trust the people who claim to represent Jesus and God. And so, I think the first thing that is important is that we look at our own formative discipleship, and we say, are we doing the things individually, personally, that God has called us to? And we actually reflect on that. Because if we don't do that, we're not actually taking responsibility for ourselves. And then what we're doing is hypocritically calling for other people to take responsibility for themselves when we're not making any effort ourselves. This is a pretty typical thing humans do — we want to point a finger, but the old thing where you've got three pointing back at you, right?

So, it’s like, it’s for us to think about that. And this is what's really interesting about the AI conversation for me. The AI conversation, it's kind of the hot topic right now that everyone's looking at. But really, if we look at our faith, it goes back to the formative things that Jesus tells us to do over and over to better ourselves so that we can help better others and the world. So, this is an issue where everybody's kind of freaking out, like, what do we do? But actually, if we do the things that Jesus tells us to do with ourselves, then the answers, in ethical context, become relatively clear. Like, if the question is, should we make AI that has the ability to destroy humanity — well, if you're framed in the teachings of Jesus, that answer is a pretty easy one. But if you're not, it might not be so easy.

And so this is one of those things where I always tell pastors, look, you need to be aware of what's going on with AI, but you don't have to be a technologist. Like, I'm not really a technologist. I'm trained in ethics. I know enough to make me dangerous about technology. But what I'm trying to do is help to steward people through these questions as they have them in context — to say, hey, what do I do when such-and-such issue arises, and then really point them back to, well, what are the teachings of Jesus on this? And if we don't have something that's clear, what are the teachings of Jesus that seem to deal with the issues that are adjacent? The Bible doesn't talk specifically, as we understand it, about AI. Now, this would be really interesting if AI someday achieves what would mutually be agreed to as personhood, because then this would get really interesting, because then all the neighbor talk and all those things become really, really important. But even right now, just as we talk about how do we steward creation — we have a responsibility.

So, I look at it — in our neighborhood, I'm a pastor at First Miami Presbyterian Church, which is in Brickell. For people who don't know Miami, it's the finance district and has become, during the pandemic, the tech hub of Miami. All these tech billionaires are moving from all over the world. They’re moving from San Francisco, from New York City, to Miami. And this has become like a hotspot. And our church — you open the front doors and you look out and you see high rises all around you, and they’re being bought up by Google and Microsoft. Citadel, which is a huge hedge fund, is moving everything out of Chicago here. And so, the opportunity for the church becomes to say, okay, all of you who are working in tech — how are you stewarding this? What do you see your call and your vocation as you work through these issues? But not just that. How are you stewarding the finance sector? Jesus talks a lot about money, so it's important for us to pay attention to it. And not just that — one thing we have at our church is once a month we have a trash pickup where we literally just gather people and go around the city and pick up trash. That isn't something that's probably going to make the front of the newspaper. But that's not the point of it. The point of it is that we're trying to care for creation and we’re actually trying to put our action where our understanding is.

And so, we do these intentional things. It's really just taking folks where they are and saying how they are using the teachings of Jesus to think about these things. And that's really what the Church Leader's Guide does. It's not prescriptive; it's suggestive. It asks questions, because I don't think it's my job to tell you what to think. I think it's your job to learn about Jesus, discern what God is calling you to, and then discern in community how God is calling you to move.

[Thibodeaux]

So in your explanation there, you mentioned calling a couple of times. And the thing I keep thinking, as you're speaking around calling, is we have so much potential with AI for what it can do, and I think that lures a lot of people. When you think of stewardship, you're like, okay, well, what do I steward? What path should I take? Because now there are so many. AI makes it so easy. So, what's your advice to people to help them calm that noise and say, there are all these things I could do, but I'm called to do this. How do you separate those two and actually get focused on what God is wanting you to do?

[Benek]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a difference about potential and what we enjoy as opposed to what God calls us to, right? And I think there's a process of discernment, and I don't know that it's uniform for every person. Like, I don’t know that the — like, as I talk to people and they testify to me about how God has called them, God calls people through a lot of different ways, and we see this in Scripture. So, part of it is, is Scripture affirming that call? If you feel called to go jump off your local bridge, the question is, does Scripture tell you to do that? And I would argue probably not. And so — are there other people in your circle, and do you have a circle? Are you with other Christians, thinking about these issues and discerning? Do those people affirm what you say is your call? If you keep saying over and over and over — now, that doesn't say there aren't prophets in the wilderness, but I think humility would not call us to jump to saying that everything we think we hear is prophetic. And so, to actually hear in community and discern — what is God doing with us? And then the other question is, how much time are you spending with God? Are you talking to God more than you're listening to God? Are you making space for that?

So, when you talk about the noise — I find different people tolerate their environment differently. There are some people who — my wife’s a great example. She loves a good co-working space. She loves the energy around it. She's an extrovert — it really helps her to actually work. But she still, even as an extrovert, needs time away from that to decompress, to listen, to pray. Time where she's out, kind of taking that spiritual walk. For me, literally now, in the pandemic, I started walking 10,000 steps a day just to kind of keep myself sane as we were going through all the things that were going on there, and what I found was that going out, intentionally disconnecting, putting my phone on silent, actually allows me to decompress and really discern what God is doing. And sometimes, that doesn't come all at once. It's being attentive to how God is moving.

Now, to say that I'm the expert on that would be just hubris, because I don't know that I am. But what I've learned is, at least for me, when God taps me on the shoulder with something, I've learned to listen to what that is. And people would say, well, that doesn't sound very scientific, but I think that's actually a mistake we make. We assume because we can't put something in the scientific method — in other words, we can't test something repeatedly — that something isn't true. And actually, what I would say is we have a lot of data points based on experience that are revelatory data, where we experience something that we can't retest. And to ignore those data points is actually more — it makes — it would be less scientific of us to ignore that data because we don’t know what to do with it, because there are lots of good science projects that happen when we don't know how to test the thing yet but people have a hypothesis. And theology and science are merged in that hypothesis stage because theology thinks about things that science then seeks to test. And so, I think there's a process for us of experience, of trusting, of failing sometimes, of doing the wrong things, of knowing when we've started something.

I’m somebody, I juggle a lot all the time, and what I realize is, as I'm juggling more and more, I'll kind of put an extra proverbial ball in the cycle, and when it starts to feel like I might drop something, I've learned to set down the thing that is least important in what I'm juggling and focus on those things. And that has kind of geared me more towards what God is calling me to over and over and over, because I start to go, well, is this really the most important thing in the direction I feel directed right now, and the direction others seem to be affirming? So, it's more of a practice. I'm sure there are others who could speak to this better than I could.

But what I've found — especially with — we have a bunch of young people, our largest demographic is 20 and 30 year olds, I’m 50 — and what I find is that a lot of people come in, and really what they’re doing is testing to see where they might be called to be and where they're having resonance with their giftings, and they're coming in to have conversations in that discernment. And a lot of times they just need the encouragement to keep going, to keep trying. I think for many of us, we work through different jobs and opportunities and things in our life that are not necessarily what we believe our calling to be. But actually, God then is using all those things to help us for the thing that God is preparing us for.

So, your end-game vocation is oftentimes not right where you are, but we shouldn't minimize how God is using your current thing. God is using all things for good as we move forward towards whatever that pinnacle thing is for you — maximizing the use of your gifts. And I would like to think I haven't reached whatever that is at this point. I'm still on the way, but it seems to be getting better as I go. The more that I discern this and practice, it also then creates an opportunity where, when things don't go the way I think they should go, the first question I ask is, what are you up to, God? What are the things that I need to be listening to and preparing for? What do I need to be learning out of this experience and this opportunity so that I can be prepared for whatever it is you have me to enter into now and in the future?

And so, I think it's a process, and I know people want the template for things. But part of the emerging mystery of God is being faithful and walking with how God will lead your unique path — and every person's path is uniquely different. We might have similarities. But no one can be you the way you are you. And I think that's one of the wonders of humanity — that we have a God who engages with us in the exact context that we find ourselves in and gifts us for the moments that we're in. And so, to me, that’s really exciting to see how God uses different people in different ways and equips people in different ways for those kingdom purposes in the world.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. I kind of refer to them as like the side quests in video games. Because that's not the main focus of the game — that's not your calling, so to speak — but all of these things prepare you. You get the health points, you go and get the item, and that's going to leave you more prepared. And I think that's kind of what you're saying — maybe where you are isn't exactly the main focus of the game, so to speak, but it's all preparing you. And I think when you mentioned templates, I think maybe what people forget sometimes, is because they just want to copy and paste and get on, but they don’t necessary see that this side quest is different than this one, and that prepares you differently, and you need all the pieces rather than just hitting the button a couple of times. Does that make sense?

[Benek]

Yeah, 100%. And actually, I would also say we shouldn't underestimate how the mundane in our lives sometimes are actually what we need to do the bigger things. So, the side quest actually is — I'll give you a silly example. I'm kind of selling myself out on this a little bit, but my son, when he was younger, was really into Fortnite, and I started playing Fortnite with him, and it ended up that I like Fortnite more than he likes Fortnite.

[Thibodeaux]

That's how it goes.

[Benek]

But what I found is — part of why I like it is, I don't have a ton of time, right? I'm a full-time pastor. I have a flock that I care for all the time. Ministry is an all-the-time kind of job. But what I found is when I get up in the morning and I'm a little groggy and I'm having a cup of coffee, if I jump on and I play one game of Fortnite, my adrenaline gets going, and it almost wakes me up so that I can get into the rest of the day. And I found that it is a helpful tool for me to be able to be more alert more quickly, to be able to engage things more quickly. And so, that's exactly how I use it — something where I don't think about anything else, I'm competitive at it, and so, I get immersed in the game. And then I — look, I could have a whole episode on the ethics of Fortnite, too, because I have all kinds of thoughts about that, too. But the thing is, just to say, it’s like, well, what are those things, it’s like, people don't have to be so focused on whatever the calling is that they forget to have joy in their life, in the presence of their life. Right now, there are lots of opportunities for us to be grateful and have joy in our lives, and we've got to be careful not to miss those things because they are fleeting. My son is 11, and people always say, well, what year did you like the best? All of them. And I don't want to miss that time with him because it's precious time. It’s time in the moment that God is giving me joy, day after day after day. And we all have these relationships or passions that we're excited about or things that we have going on, and I think God gets excited with us about those things. It's really important that we don't minimize the things that give us joy. I think God has created these things for us to have joy.

And I also think it's really important we keep in perspective that we are made to be eternal beings. This is a season. There are joys and there are hardships in this season, but we have an eternity to do all sorts of things. And so, the question is, if this is the fallen version of the future reality — wow, it's going to be awesome what we're going to experience in the future. And so, it doesn't mean — I'm with people every week as they're grieving things, my family grieves things. It doesn’t mean it’s not hard. But there is so much wonder and mystery in the expression of life that we have now. Whatever that resurrected life is going to be is going to be something really amazing. And so, when you put that in context and you look at technology — we look sometimes to technology like it's this mystical thing that's happening, but actually it's part of the mystery of what God has entrusted us with and empowered us with. And when you start to look at it through that lens, that hermeneutic, we start to see a more cohesive understanding of the wonder and awe of creation that God has made.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah, I love that you bring up the idea of joy and time. I don’t know about anybody else out there listening, but I know for me, and what I have heard is, AI is a big time saver. That’s been its sell for years now. And so, what I would love to hear from you is, if AI is going to save us all this time, what do you see people actually doing with the time that it opens up? And how can we make sure that the time we get back, if there's any, is actually joyful? How can we make it a tool for joy?

[Benek]

Yeah. I mean, the basic answer is, follow the teachings of Jesus, and your life will have more joy. It doesn't mean your life won't be harder — your life will definitely be harder. It is definitely harder to do what Jesus tells you to do than not to. But the result long term is easier, because it's like compounding interest. You're making an investment that over time is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

I think the thing is, yes, AI can save you time. It can also be a time suck. I mean, I think people tend to kind of overestimate how much — I can't tell you how much time I've spent arguing with my LLM because it's just wrong on things sometimes. And it’s like, no, no, no, that’s not right. We’re not gonna go there. But I would say, for me, at least, the easiest example is it's helped me to aggregate a lot of information a lot more quickly. So, time that I would have spent literally physically flipping through a book for something, I can have instantly. That’s hours and hours of time. And for me, what I use that time for is relational time with other people. So, it allows me to take the requirements of my job — where I have to do administrative work, for example, and compile a bunch of things into a document for someone to read and approve this or do that with the church — and it allows me to simplify that with as good, if not significantly better, results, because I'm able to get more information more quickly to aggregate and process it.

And then the real win on that is the time I saved gets invested relationally with people. And that's a game changer for pastors, because we have so many administrative expectations, so many expectations of production, that it's easy for pastors to feel like they're kind of a cog in the machine of ministry. And if you want to kill ministry, have that happen to your pastor. If you want your church to have the joy sucked out of it, have your pastor not have any joy and feel like they're just — and many pastors feel this way. So, AI is a relief to a lot of people, because it allows them to do things they've been trained to do, that they know how to do at a high level, but that were for generations upon generations, decades — for millennia — difficult to do because of sourcing material. Now, it's here quickly.

Now, does that mean you should always trust what AI gives you? No, you definitely need to know the difference. I personally think — and I'm biased on this — it's different for someone coming right out of seminary than somebody who's been in ministry for 25 years, because that person has the experience and the wisdom that comes from the experience. You've been able to try some things and have them not succeed. You've been able to try some things and have them succeed.

And so, I think if you take that and take it to the average person, it's not that dissimilar. You’re gonna find the ways to use AI to — people think AI is a hack to save themselves time, but that's just good systems. I used to think all the time — I used to, especially when I was in college, find ways to do things that I thought made me a slacker because I was doing them way quicker than other people. And I thought there was something wrong with me, because there’s people just laboring over their studies and laboring, and I'd find a hack that I’d just be able to do well on tests and still understand the information. I was always good at finding a shortcut. And I thought, well, is that really a shortcut, or over time, I learned this was me expediting and being a good steward of my time, so I could invest it in other things.

Now, the question is, what do you invest that other time with? Because there are good things you can invest your time with, and things that aren't helpful that you can invest your time with. We all have those options every day. If you use AI in a positive and ethical way — and again, much of that is in context. If you’re in a place that doesn’t use AI for certain things, and they have a rationale behind it, well, either you’re buying into that or you’re questioning it, and then if you’re buying into it, then the thing is, as you're using it or not using it, you’re also thinking about, what are the other things I need to do in my life to make myself holistically complete as possible in the way I understand what Jesus is teaching me? There's not a clear answer on this, and I know that's not satisfying to people. Just give me the template. But the thing is, discipleship is not that clear. Discipleship is showing up over and over and over.

I see people who take communion week after week after week. It doesn't seem like anything's happening, and then one week they'll come up and it clicks, and I can see it in their eyes, and they're tearing up. Did all the other times not matter? Of course not — they were all preparing them for that moment. I see people who read Scripture over and over and over and it's laborious for them, so painful. And then something switches, and all of a sudden it is their joy, and they can't see life without that. It's the same thing with exercise if you think about it. If you don't go to the gym forever and then you go, your first couple weeks are going to be miserable. You are going to be exhausted. Everything in you is going to hurt. You're gonna be like, this is the worst thing ever. But for example, for runners, once you get past that, there's a thing called a runner's high, where your body rewards you for doing the work of this.

It's the same thing with our spiritual life. It's the same thing with our technological lives. It's being intentional, doing the work. And so, this is the thing — people in culture get excited because they're like, look at this shortcut I have. It is a shortcut, but it can actually be the long way around if you don't use the time you save well. Because really what you could be doing is creating more problems for yourself if you're not using the tech well and not using the time you save well. And this is everything in life.

I think ten years from now people will talk about AI like they talk about the internet. We don't have big Internet Explorer conferences anymore or whatever — that would be weird, right? And so, I think in the future, it’ll be AI — because we already use AI for everything and we don’t realize it. We're using it to have this conversation right now. There’s automated pieces of this. So, I think these are the things where we just don't have the lens to see how pervasive it is. And really, what we're talking about most of the time for most people are LLMs — how people are using their LLMs. But there are so many other uses, and we're going to see more expressions of that as they come. We have to deal with each of those in context.

[Thibodeaux]

So really, when we're talking about productivity and being intentional about it, a lot of the time, in the business context, then we get into the value proposition idea, and of course that's true with AI. But you say that your goal is to make the church so that you're not the only value proposition. What do you mean by that?

[Benek]

Well, I mean it particularly because I'm a pastor, and I think pastor-centric churches miss the point of the church. The beauty of the church is the diversity of the church. In our particular church, we have representation from more than 50 different nationalities. We're very multiethnic. People speak languages I didn't even know existed before. I think I mentioned to you off-air, we had a student who came to our church whose family was from the Bahamas, and he only spoke Papiamento, which I didn't know was even a language. And so, we had to learn how to communicate with him so he could be in our children's ministry with all the other children.

And so, for me, it's for everyone to understand how important they are to God. A lot of times we go to the church — and this is the mistake, we see this in Scripture, we can go over and over and over and look at, Jesus challenged religious authorities because people were holding those religious authorities beyond their role in the community. And so, it’s important to understand we all have different giftings and we all have different roles. And in my tradition, we believe that everyone is called to be a minister.

Now, that doesn't mean everyone's called to be a pastor. Pastor is a certain role. In the Presbyterian Church, it means you’re a teaching elder, and that means you’re the minister of Word and Sacrament, so it's our job to preach the Word and officiate over the sacrament. And Presbyterians have other functions in that that they attribute to their pastor. But those are the main things. But other folks are ministers of — add the adjectives — whatever it is that God has called them to be.

Part of getting the church to actually see the fullness of the church is to understand that it's not one person leading the church; it is a group of people in discernment with the Holy Spirit who are actually deciding how things go forward in the teachings of Jesus as God calls us. And so, we follow the person of Jesus certainly, but Jesus then even entrusts — I mean, this is the whole Pentecost moment — the ministry to His disciples. We even see this before Pentecost moment: Jesus sends out disciples to do the work of ministry, and they come back, and sometimes they go, "We didn't know how to do this." And Jesus goes, “Oh, no, you don’t know how to deal with that one. I’ll deal with this one. But these ones, deal with these.” And we see this over and over and over in the Scriptures. So, it's really getting people to embrace the importance of who they are. Because people are so important. Only you can be you, and only you can use the giftings you have in the context that you have. Only you can do the ministry that God has prepared for you. And once people understand that, the church actually begins to flourish in a way that a lot of modern churches struggle with, because they create systems and hierarchies that become dependent on individuals as opposed to becoming dependent on the body and the Spirit.

And so, that's what I mean when I say I don't want to be the only value proposition. And I don't think I am. I think when people come to the church, hopefully I'm adding value — that's great, that's the goal. But when people come to the church, they feel the joy of all the different things going on in the life of the church that are coming out of the people who are helping the community to flourish. And it's almost fascinating with our church, because people come in the door — some who have never been to a church before, some who are in other religious traditions, some who have been in churches their whole lives — and they go, what is that feeling that I'm feeling? And it's the culmination of all of this in the Holy Spirit. And it's like, well, stick around and you'll figure it out.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. So, I guess what I'm thinking, based on your reply, is that everybody, as you’re saying, has their value proposition, but in the context of AI, then AI has to sit underneath that. The value proposition of the person always supersedes the AI. And maybe our job in the business context or in the ministry is figuring out how we use AI to bring that value proposition of the person more to the light, rather than just saying, okay, well, we have these templates that AI can do, and how do we apply them because everybody else is doing it. You have to see the entire person and what they can bring to the church, and then say, okay, well, can AI help you or not? And if it can, great. If not, you set it aside and let the person do their thing as God is calling them to do. Does that make sense?

[Benek]

Yeah, but I would also say it's even more complicated than that. A good example is a lot of people are using AI to create music now. I think it is really important, like human in the loop — which is really what you're describing, a human-centric AI. There's importance to that. But I also don't envision a world where humans have to do all the things that we claim we have to do. There are some things I would love not to do. Like, if I don't ever have to mow my grass again because an AI will do it — God bless that AI. And if Elon Musk can create a robot that will do my laundry for me, I will never fold laundry again, and I will rejoice. Because those aren't the things — nothing against laundry. Or maybe I’ll choose to do it as a special occasion. But to have the option to do something as opposed to being enslaved to do it is a different thing, right? So, to have that freedom could be a great thing.

But I also think we have to be careful. For example, in the music industry right now — I have tremendous musicians at my church. I have one who is a recording artist who was nominated for a Dove Award for best worship album in the whole world. And then I have another who has been using AI to write a song every day using the Gospel of Luke as we've gone through a sermon series. And some of those songs are amazing. Yesterday in worship, he played one of them during communion, and it’s amazing. People love it. It's the theme of what we're doing.

What we're seeing in the industry now is that places like Spotify have articulated they're going to identify whether something is AI-created or whether it’s human-created. And what I would actually argue is — wait a second, how do you determine that? What is the nuance of determining that? Because the person I had, he had to do a lot of work to get the AI to help him fill in the pieces. Is it the traditional way we've done it? No. But is it not worthy of being a song we sing in worship? I would argue it's absolutely worthy of being something we sing.

But the reason the business side is doing it is because the business side doesn't want to lose money by people being able to create in a more democratic way and not have to go through the empire system of the recording industry. So, to me, the question is, well, maybe we need to rethink how we're recording and distributing music. There are plenty of cultures that see information as shared knowledge — they don't talk about plagiarism, for example, and way we talk about plagiarism because they say, hey, this is part of our community and we share everything in our community.

So, again, I'm not suggesting what the answer should be on this, but what I am saying is we need to also look at why other people are interested in making regulations, and not assume that those regulations actually fit Jesus' purpose. Because a lot of times they fit a corporate purpose or a corporate narrative, and not the church's purpose.

And this is why it’s really important for people to understand what they believe about AI. And that’s really why I wrote the book. When I sat with people in my church and talked with them about AI, what I quickly realized is, everybody was talking about something completely different because they were talking about how they were uniquely using it in their context. And when I would step out of the conversation and empower someone else to lead the conversation, the whole group would come back and say, "You've got to get back in there, this is a mess." The reason it was a mess is that, as the pastor, I knew all these people, and I knew how to translate what they were saying so they could understand each other, but when I put somebody else in there who didn't have that information I had, they couldn't do it.

And so, it became one of those things where my value proposition became evident to them in the conversation. So, part of what I wanted to do was ask, how can people ask questions — whether they're church leaders or business leaders — how can they ask questions that help to inform what they believe about AI? Because the subject matter is so large. So, the first part of the Church Leader's Guide to AI is kind of survey material. If somebody's an expert in AI, there's stuff in there they probably just know and they'll go, I don't need this.

But what we try to do is give a survey of all the things that are going on, and it doesn’t cover everything, obviously, but it covers kind of a large swath — all the way into government and warfare, and how do we think about these things? And then the part that I think is actually the most helpful, that I wouldn't want people to miss, is that there's a study guide in the back that is meant for people to sit with individually and ask questions of themselves, but also in community to ask those questions.

During Lent this year, we did that with our church, and the conversations were amazing. People came from so many different ways of thinking and perspectives, and together they began to say, how do we think about this as a community? What are the things we share in unity on this that we agree with, and what are things that are particular to our individual context where we may differ? And that made all the difference as they decide how to use conversation. Since then, I've had numerous people in those groups go on to teach classes in their fields about this, who have had other people come and say, "Hey, can you teach us how to do this?" And it becomes one of those things where it's not top-down.

I think it's great that the Pope had an encyclical on AI. I think it's good, but we need to remember — that's the Pope doing the Pope's job. He's supposed to do that. That isn't going to impact most people on the ground because most people on the ground have contextual issues that apply only to them, and they're going to need to do the work themselves to understand how they are supposed to respond. Now, that's AI — but it's also everything you have in life. It's everything you're called to steward. It’s to say, how do I ask these questions?

So what I think is helpful about the Church Leader's Guide is, you can really take the word church and replace it with any kind of leader's guide, and you can ask questions and modify those questions to your context in a way that helps you to discern how God is calling you, or how you may be being led to use AI ethically and with efficiency in your own life.

[Thibodeaux]

So, if we're talking about this idea of community and getting different ideas, I think maybe we can all agree that there is some hesitation or resistance from the top sometimes to getting those other perspectives. What would you say to leaders out there to invite that other conversation and get those balls rolling? Because I think sometimes there's some institutionalism going on, or people get scared they're going to lose their own position or authority. But how can we create an environment where people feel safe enough to bring in all of those other voices?

[Benek]

Well, one is for us not to live in fear, right? We’re studying Luke, the back end of chapter 19 and chapter 20, and there's a whole thing in there where Jesus is dealing with the Pharisees and the Sadducees and quote unquote, spies that were sent to trip him up. And really what that has to do with is people worried about losing their positions of power. And Jesus has an interesting response — he essentially asks them to consider what the truth might actually be. And what they fail to do is actually do that. Instead, what they try to do is just figure out how to answer so they can secure their power. And in doing that, they actually forfeit their power and their institutional credibility.

So, what I say to people is, look, you are uniquely you. Pastors, you are uniquely you. Nobody else is like you. You have gifts that other people don't have. If you're where you're supposed to be and you're doing the things that you're called to do, you don't have to be afraid to widen the conversation. You don't have to be afraid to have more people involved. The example I just gave you — where I was in the conversation — my model is I create something and I try to hand it to somebody, because I like to create things and I'm good at it and I feel it's part of my call. So, I create something, help equip somebody, send them off with it, and then create the new thing and send them off with it. And what I found was that particular conversation was not something I could hand off easily because it wasn't something people had the ability to facilitate easily — it was just an area where I was gifted to be able to have those conversations.

But I would say that is actually part of the function of the pastor. If you really know your people, if you're really caring for your people, if you know what makes those folks tick, then you have a value proposition because you've done your job. You've done your work. You've lived into your calling, and you’ve done it in a way that only uniquely you can. And so this is where a lot of times institutions get afraid, but what really happens is they're not actually maximizing the return of their people.

And so, it’s being intentional about that, and I think there's a lot that resonates with the business world. If you have a business and you're not taking care of the people who work for you, you're missing the boat. Because those people, if they feel loved and cared for, they're gonna be bought in with what you're doing more and more, and you’re gonna see the return on that. And beyond that, your relationships are gonna give you joy in the work. And people can tell when there's joy in the work or when there's not — 1,000,000%. If I have the choice to go to a business where somebody is greeting me joyfully or not, 1,000,000% I'm choosing the place that creates joy and treats people with respect and enthusiasm. 1,000,000%.

I've seen little tiny churches that feel like they don't have any resources, but they are joyous, and those churches grow because people feel that and go, that's a rarity. It's hard to find that. If you can do that in your business, it's a rarity. And so again, AI is the front issue, but the issues that have been there all along — Jesus addresses those formative issues of who we are. And it's for us to not get too worried. It doesn't mean there aren't things coming that are going to be beyond what we've ever experienced before. But humanity's faced that before. Jesus didn't say things wouldn't be scary. He didn't say that. But He did say He'd be with us. And in the Spirit, we know that's true.

[Thibodeaux]

Yeah. Well, He has always said that He wants us to be joyful, and He has always said that He wants us to love each other. And I think that's really the heart of what we're saying — when you look at AI, just ask yourself if it's doing that, and if it's not, maybe you need to back up a little.

[Benek]

Yeah, that's right.

[Thibodeaux]

Right. Well, I think that is a wonderful place, on a joyful note, to wrap up the interview. But I do again want to mention your book, the Church Leader's Guide to Artificial Intelligence. So, listeners, if you have not checked that out, please do that. But if we want to know more about you and your work, Christopher, where can we go to find out more?

[Benek]

You can go right to my website, christopherbenek.com, and that has just about everything. And Church Leader's Guide is on Amazon, and you can get it on Audible and pretty much any audiobook option out there. So, I hope people will check it out.

[Thibodeaux]

Thank you. And I do always try to close my interviews by praying for the guests that I have. Would you mind if I do that for you?

[Benek]

No, that's great. Thank you so much.

[Thibodeaux]

Of course. God, Christopher has a big job, not only as a pastor, but trying to keep all of this technology making sense for people — giving them direction with it, guiding them in general. And so, God, I ask that you give him the discernment that sometimes the tech does not have. Let him understand what to say, when, where to point them, where the tools can be used and where they can't. And help him, especially in his church, to keep building the relationships and the community that, as we've been talking, is the most important thing — that is the thing that gives joy. So, help us stay focused on that. And I just pray that his ministry continues to flourish. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen.

[Benek]

Amen. Thank you for that.

[Thibodeaux]

Of course, anytime. Well, Christopher, this has been a wonderful time. I really appreciate you being here, and I just hope everybody checks out your book. Thanks once again.

[Benek]

Thank you so much. Blessings.

[Thibodeaux]

Well, listeners, as I leave you today, I think we can agree that like any tool, AI is what we turn it into. It can do damage, or it can support the church as we try to come together as a community. And we have conversations like this not to tell you to use it or not use it, but to help you think critically about what the ramifications of picking it up might be. But because we lean on AI so much to build us templates and frameworks, next week, we’ll continue the conversation by looking at what might be the only framework you ever need for work and life—the Lord’s Prayer. Until then, as always, be blessed.