Welcome to the fifth episode of the Entrepreneurs with ADHD series on the podcast.

This week, I’m joined by my good friend, Dave Greenwood, a professional writer, author of two bestselling books on ADHD, podcaster,  and consultant on burnout in the workplace. 

In this conversation, Dave and I candidly share our own experiences as well as what we have learned from coaching other entrepreneurs with ADHD.

Here are some of the highlights:

- Understanding the critical differences between stress and burnout.

- Strategies to avoid overcommitment and prioritize what truly matters.

- Essential self-care practices every entrepreneur with ADHD can practice. 

- How systemic changes can reclaim your sense of clarity and control.

- Practical advice on balancing personal and business responsibilities

Mic drop moment:

“If you live in response mode day after day, week after week, year after year, you will not only burn out, you will also run your business into the ground.”  Dave Greenwood 

Mentioned in this episode:

Cait Donovan: keynote speaker on burnout

Dave’s books: Overcoming Distractions  and Overcoming Burnout 

Dave’s YouTube channel 

I have had the pleasure of being a guest on Dave’s podcast, Overcoming Distractions several times.  Here are a few of my favorites:

• Radical Self Acceptance with ADHD, Part 1
• Radical Self Acceptance with ADHD, Part 2
• How to Communicate Your Needs at Work Without Mentioning ADHD
• Relating to the Four Tendencies as an Adult with ADHD, Part 1
• Relating to the Four Tendencies as an Adult with ADHD, Part 2
• Overcoming Shame as an Adult with ADHD
• 
  

Please share this episode with your entrepreneurial friends with ADHD traits who talk about feeling burned out.  Here's a link to make it easy: https://bit.ly/episode-blog-214

If this conversation helped you recognize that you need to make some changes in your business and life so you can not only avoid burnout, but make your business more simple, streamlined and profitable,  book a free consultation here.  Let’s talk about how I can help. 

And if you want to chat with Dave about working with him, click here to book a free consultation. 

H: You are a writer, you have 2 published books for adults with ADHD. The first one is Overcoming Distractions, and the second one is Overcoming Burnout, a subject that is near and dear to both our hearts. And I am one of the people that you interviewed for that book. So, before we get into some of the deeper issues about clarity and control, why did you decide to write a book about burnout specifically for entrepreneurial folks with ADHD?

G: I would say that, not everybody in the book that I interviewed has ADHD. But there's definitely some commonalities when you get into burnout. I just think the people that did have ADHD then the people I work with, individually that have ADHD and feel burned out, I feel they got there a lot quicker. For, you know, various reasons, whether it's ineffective time energy management, people pleasing, those types of things, as you coined the phrase, the stop, drop, and roll, which I think those of us with ADHD are quicker to stop, drop, and roll than others.

So, but to answer your question, I was burned out. And I was saying this casually to myself for many months, you know, during the thick of COVID, which I think a lot of people also probably had a similar experience. And I was saying, I'm burned out. I'm burned out, and I was tired and then I realized one day, no, I'm burned out. This isn't like this casual thing anymore. You know, when you do a little research, I'm like, no. I'm like, I'm burned out. So, I couldn't think anymore. I could sleep 20 hours and still felt like I didn't sleep.

I was having trouble thinking my executive functions were basically in the trash and somebody with ADHD I mean that we already have limited amount of that capacity anyways so I went and wrote the book that I couldn't find and I really wanted to not write a clinical book because I'm not a clinical guy. I'm a welding school flunko, and I needed to write a book that came from people who experienced burnout so people could relate to these situations. And the more people I talked to, they say they read the book. They say, holy crap, you must have been in my house because you describe me to a tee. And I didn't write it to scare people, I meant it to relate to people and for them to understand that the real life situations that people get into and not just like clinical babble.

H: Yeah and I think a practical book and a tactical book, the book that you wrote and I'm proud to recommend, is really what we need now. We don't need another clinical textbook and I think there's so many complicating variables about this, and I don't wanna get too deep into the weeds on it. But I know that a lot of people use the term burnout very casually as you used to and some people almost like a badge of honor. You know, we are in a workaholic hustle culture. It's nothing new.

It's been this way for many, many years. I used to be very proud of how much I worked, how hardworking I was. I mean, I remember at a time when you would go to a job interview and talking about being a hard worker was one of the things you wanted to make sure you emphasize to the interviewer. So I think it can be really hard for people to identify and acknowledge when they are burned out, when they are in the process of burning out. And not everybody can really do that. Do you think there are, like, certain hallmarks that really accurately distinguish whether what you're going through is something you need to seriously consider as burnout versus fatigue, overwhelm, you know, excessive working and so forth.

G: Yeah. I mean, you bring up a good point. The term burnout is thrown around very loosely if you hop on social media. And the recovery of burnout is thrown around incredibly loosely. Go sit by the pool, go, you know, time block, go have a bottle of water, go to a yoga class.

H: Get your nails done.

G: Right, I'm not discounting any of that. But there is a massive difference between stress and burnout. I mean, stress can be resolved by sitting by the pool for a long weekend, maybe you just work your ass off for, you know, several weeks on a project and you're stressed out. But burnout is chronic stress and for some people, it's different. It could be 6 months of busting their ass. Some people I've worked with literally just work themselves into burnout over 10, 12, 15 years, and then they finally said, no more, I can't do this.

So that's the first thing is people definitely need to distinguish between stress and burnout. We can't just throw that term around loosely. Burnout stops people in their tracks it stops people from feeling. It stops people from enjoying life, from enjoying their family. People are burned out, go home, they pull the covers over their head, they neglect their kids, they neglect their spouse. That's burnout when all that stuff just shuts down. So, but it's as you know, it's the mental, it's the mental state. It's the exhaustion. It's the chronic exhaustion.

It's the, for those of us with ADHD, when we already, you know, have limited executive functions, those come to a screeching halt. I mean, we definitely can't remember why we walked into a room, you know? Then the physical symptoms, such as the digestive issues, and the headaches, and I used to say that stress would follow my entire body around. I would grind my teeth, and then I would get a headache, and then I would pull my neck out, and then I'd have digestive issues, and then I'd throw my lower back out. And it was just like the stress was like, dude, when are you gonna listen to me? I mean…

H: It’s traveling until you pay attention.

G: Yeah. It's like, what can we attack to get his attention?

H: What's it gonna take, bro?

G: And I'm telling you, that's the way it works.

H: But burnout is like a complete shutdown. And here's the thing, yes, the physical stuff is probably what ultimately gets people to pay attention because eventually you just get to the point where you just feel so sick or so weak or so incapacitated that you cannot function. You're not showering. You're not brushing your teeth. You're maybe putting a t shirt on to drag yourself to a Zoom call, and you're still wearing underwear from 3 days ago. Like, serious, serious, like, shutdown of your ability to function.

But I think what makes people so reluctant sometimes to acknowledging the state they're in is the mental effects of burnout, including and especially if you are an adult with ADHD who helps others for a living, a therapist, a coach, a consultant, a service provider. When we get to burnout and we resent the very existence of our friends, family and clients. But we need them because they're paying our bills. Their resentment, and this is something I learned from Cait Donovan, who is also a burnout coach, resentment is the emotion to pay attention to that lets you know you're in burnout because you resent anything you have to do for anyone, even someone you love and respect. Do you agree with that?

G: Oh, totally. You see caregivers, which again, you and I have talked about this before, offline, is where resentment can be an enormous factor. You're taking care of an aging parent, you're taking care of maybe a child with a disability, or maybe it's a sibling, which, again, I've seen that where the sibling is like, this is I have to take care of my brother or sister for the rest of my life because they have some type of disability. That's where you see massive resentment, because somebody feels like they could be living a different life, and they can't right now.

So, but resentment is huge. We resent our bosses in the workplace, we resent our coworkers, we entrepreneurs, we resent some of the clients we have to work with. Running my PR firm, I had some cool clients, but there was a few I resented because I couldn't stand working with them. But they were paying me a healthy retainer, but they were pain in the ass to work with. So yeah, so I agree with her in the sense that if you're just feeling resentful about some of the people that you have to interact with on a regular basis. Yeah, that's a massive red flag.

H: And it causes a lot of shame to especially the caregiver responsibilities. Or if you feel like I'm really lucky to have this number of clients or clients who pay me this amount for the work I do, I feel fortunate to be self employed, to be able to work from home, be able to have the flexibility and so forth. But none of that privilege or good fortune has any impact on guilt, shame, and resentment when you're actually burned out. We'd like to believe it does. We'd like to believe that we can just kind of reframe, change our mindset, and decide, I'm really very fortunate to be able to work for myself. I'm really very lucky to be able to work from home. I, you know, we can tell ourselves all these things. Yeah, and when we're not in burnout, they might work. When we are in burnout, nothing.

G: No, and I think there's a level of, again, go back to the caregiver thing, where there's a level of, yeah, I gotta do this. I have to help my loved one or whomever that that person is. But when that goes on year after year, and then, you know, a perfect example is like, all your friends are up at the beach house, and you're, you're at someone's house cleaning the bathroom or, you know, stuff like that. It's just like that's where I see the resentment coming in that terms. And I know we're talking about burnout and ADHD and entrepreneurs.

But think about the about the perfect storm somebody can go through when they're an entrepreneur with ADHD. They already have their challenges maybe running their business. They're getting pulled in all different directions, and then you throw in personal challenges as well. I mean, that is a recipe for resentment.

H: And, you know, we've been talking a little bit about the additional responsibilities, additional burdens of someone who has caregiving responsibilities, which, by the way, almost all of us do.

G: Or will.

H: Even if what we're caring for is an aging pet or a roommate that's had an accident. So I think, you know, we are all now or will be at some point in the future with responsibilities that in some way represent a role conflict or role strain is something I've talked about a lot as a female. Because it with very few exceptions, if you are in heterosexual marriage and you are the female, you are probably going to be responsible for an inordinate amount of household responsibilities and caregiving responsibilities.

But I'm curious if you think even for a single person right? Single person, ADHD, self employed, entrepreneur. Their parents are not at the age where they're caregiving them. They do not have a disabled, sibling. Nobody else that they don't even have any houseplants. Every all their plants are silk. Are they just by virtue of the fact that they are ADHD and self employed, are they at greater risk for burnout in your opinion, in your experience?

G: I don't know. I mean, that's a good question that I think I would need to put a little more thought into. I think it just it does come down to those individual circumstances. I think, you know, I'll use one of my examples from the book where I was running my PR firm. I was, I guess, somewhat of a people pleaser.

H: Come on, be honest, hardcore people pleaser.

G: No, you know what? I didn't, I probably would need a therapy session for this. But it's just like, you know, I have clients that, like, were paying me 1,000 of dollars a month, to my PR firm, and sometimes they would go 90 days. And I didn't wanna rattle the cage, so to speak. I didn't wanna, you know, and then I would finally call them on it and they go Oh Dave, we're sorry, and I'm like, no, no, no, don't worry about it, stuff happens. I'm like, no stuff doesn't happen I've been working for free for 3 months. I mean, those are the types of things that, you know, that's one example of many where that that caused burnout because you let this crap happen to you. And again, going back to resentment, I started to resent these clients, because they were not paying me, and I was doing the work, and I didn't wanna ruffle any feathers. So but it…

H: Well, you're speaking to one of my favorite topics, which is boundaries, and I gotta be honest with you because we're friends and you know I am very playful, bordering on teasing, never malicious, but I do tease. And I just teased you about the people pleasing because the reality is if you are self employed, if you are an entrepreneur, you are responsible for generating your own financial resources and security. And in some respects, you are a little bit at the mercy of your clients. So I guess what I'm saying, Dave, is I don't really think it's people pleasing as it is an appreciation for the fact that your clients have a little bit of control over you.

I mean, you've done the work, and now you're waiting for them to compensate you for the work. And if they choose to dick you around for 90 days or longer, even if you have policies that say net 30 or net 10 or whatever, in that experience, it's not people pleasing that you're reluctant to say something. It's the reality that they have more control over your financial security than you do in that transaction. Because you could say, well, if you don't pay me on time, I'm not gonna work for you anymore. And then there's gonna be however long it takes for you to go find a client to replace them.

G: Yeah. But I also see a case of where I could have been a lot more assertive in those situations. Not aggressive, assertive, because there's a big difference.

H: Big difference.

G: But I know some contractors that have done work on my house, and I swear to God, there's, like, an agreement, and you pay me here, you pay me here, you pay me here. And when that second payment is due, the pickup truck is in my driveway at 6 AM, and he's knocking on the door, and he's like, where's my money? Where's my check and I'm like, why can't I be like that but I did.

H: Really good question though because what we're talking about today, we're talking about the intersections and the nuances of clarity, control, and the inevitability of burnout if we don't take these things seriously. But like what and I don't want this to feel like a therapy session. But you can do that when you say why can't I be like that? You can be like that and because I know you and I've known you for a while, you have made changes over the last couple of years that you probably wanted to make for a long time. But the reality of your life circumstances over the last couple of years kind of incentivized you to say now.

G: Yeah. And that's why I'm a huge fan of those two words, clarity and control. And I always think whether you have ADHD or not, or you're burned out or not, there's always room for you to take more control over things. You know, it's funny when I start, and there's a section in the book about this as well. And people might have thought I was high, okay, but there's a section in the book about addressing your complaints. And I'm a firm believer that if there's something you continually complain about over and over and over again, those are the things that need to be fixed in short order, because those are the things that are burning you out. They're making you resentful. And there's a lot to be learned from the things we continually complain about, i.e. client going out 90 days and me working for free, those types of things.

A caregiver responding to every doctor's appointment for a loved one versus saying, you know what, I'm going to make the doctor's appointments now and we'll do it on my schedule, which is something I had to do. Because it could literally take an entire day to take my father to a doctor's appointment, you know, by the time driving down and getting him in the car, dah dah dah dah dah, what have you. It's, you know, 6 to 7 hours and versus saying, you know what, there's a better way to do this. I'm gonna call the doctor, I'm gonna say, give me the last appointment of the day. I don't care if I sit in traffic after, because at least I can work during the day, those types of things whole day.

But I mean, those are a couple examples, but I think people listening should understand if they just hit the pause button, sat there and looked at their calendar looked at some other commitments and they just made a list of things that they could control I bet they'd come up with half a dozen really quickly, if you just kind of change your way of thinking. Just I can control this, or what part of it can I control? Because you cannot live with ADHD. You can't work on a busy job or run a business with ADHD, and you can avoid burnout if you don't take control of certain things. It's just not gonna happen. If you live in response mode day after day, week after week, year after year, you will burn out and you will ram your business into the ground.

H: And if you do not understand this and take it seriously and decide to practice what I call radical self acceptance and realize this is not a you problem. This isn't even really an ADHD problem. It's the problem of too many things competing for the scarce resource of your time and attention. So most of us, and I think I'm really guilty of this, saying yes to do many things impulsively, over committing, over complicating, over scheduling, and then realizing, oh, shit, I don't have time to do all this, but I'll still try. That's ridiculous. I mean, the biggest change I've made in the last few years, and I think the pandemic has assisted me in realizing how much I needed to do this, is that I'm doing a lot fewer things, and I'm doing them better.

That has been you realize, well, you didn't figure that out very early in life. No, I didn't because of the impulsive, you know, yes, saying yes, and makes everybody happy when you give them the answer they want. But overcommitting, overcomplicating, overextending yourself will inevitably burn you out. Now when you get to that point, which many people have to get to that point, usually, by then, we're, like, feeling like a victim. My clients are so demanding and unreasonable.

My family is so needy and dependent. It's like, you have to get to the point where you're like, I maybe didn't do this to myself because I don't think we need to go there. But I am a willing participant in my own suffering, and now I'm going to take control of it without needing to hate on or blame or shame yourself or anyone else. Like, where do you think people can start to take control of their business and their life so that they can pull themselves back from the brink of burnout or begin the recovery process if they're already there?

G: I seriously think it's just sitting there and looking at your calendar and even your to do list. And I mean, I would start there because I think if you stare at if you're using Outlook or Gmail, or what have you, and you pull up your calendar for the 7 days, I think everybody could make even tiny moves to make more room for either important things or adjust how they work. So for example, and I think these are all connected. So taking my father to a doctor's appointment at 4:30 in the afternoon allows me to work when I best work and again, these are connected. I don't work well at 4 in the afternoon, my brain's done, I just sit here and twiddle my thumbs, okay.

But if I can get up early, sit down at my desk, and this was really more evident when I was running a PR firm, is that, you know, there's a lot of writing and a lot of different things. I need quality quiet time, and I need a fresh brain to do the work that I need to do. Some people call it deep work. But if I'm doing that 30 minutes here an hour here, 7 o'clock at night, it is never going to happen. So to kind of answer your question, it's more of a systemic look at or holistic look at everything you have on your plate. And how can you start to kind of just move things around a little bit and understand how you're going to get the stuff done you need to get done and take on the other commitments that you might have such as, you know, coaching a kid's baseball game or taking somebody to the doctor or what have you. I also think this isn't just like a set it and forget it. This is something you have to do all the time.

You have to just constantly just look at everything that's kind of in your kind of windshield there and adjust accordingly. My son is getting out of school, this week, we're recording this. We're going to take a little bit of a break, like a gap year, I'd call it so that change of the dynamic here. How am I going to spend time with him? When am I going to book things such as speaking or working 1 on 1 with people? And when are the days that I'm not going to do that so I can spend time, working with him. So I'm undertaking a massive shift in just basically throwing everything on the table and see where it fits. I don't know if that makes sense to people, but it's like the whole thing, you know?

H: No, and you're right. It's and I appreciate that you answered it, the question in that way. Because it's not like, we'll start with this, and it'll lead to that. The clarity about what's actually important to you. I do a core values exercise with new clients because knowing what's most important to you and, like, what's really most important to you don't just copy what everybody else says is most important to them because it's probably not true. But what's most important to you, what are the things that you want to prioritize.

And if you don't, you're gonna feel like you failed yourself and the people you care about the most. Anchor yourself in those things and something I've been doing with, some of my clients that I think has become a total game changer along these lines is like me, and maybe like you, as an entrepreneurial person with ADHD, we tend to just keep adding things. Like, oh, that sounds good, oh, yeah, I'd like to do that speaking opportunity. Yeah, sure, I'll say yes to that summit.

Yeah, I'd love to do a LinkedIn live with that person. You want me to be on your podcast? You wanna interview me for your book? You know, something I call the default yes. Because each of those decisions that we're making is like an isolation, and we're not looking at the big picture of our life and our bandwidth and our other commitments. So I've done a couple things that I think maybe you do as well. I insist on installing a pause button for any time anything is requested of me. Like, before I give an answer, I have to go back and look at the rest of my week, the rest of my month, and sometimes the rest of my life because does this fit with my values? Does it fit with my priorities and do I actually have the bandwidth? So I no longer give a default yes for anything, for anything.

And sometimes it may seem like it's excessive. Like, you can't say yes to lunch tomorrow, like, are you that important or that busy? That's not the point. It's that I want the clarity and I want the control. That means I would choose it again and not like so many people with ADHD say yes to things without really thinking about it. And then when it comes time to actually do it, we don't want to anymore because we didn't really think about why we said yes to begin with. And the other thing is that I love planning out 90 days in advance, which doesn't come naturally to me.

Like the whole time horizon thing. When I learned that the neurotypical person's time horizon is 12 to 16 weeks, I was like, shit. I think mine's like 12 to 16 minutes. So I have to use tools like a 90 day planner to realize, okay, where do I wanna be in 90 days? And then block off those commitments outside of work. Block off the time for exercise. Block off the time for the doctor's appointments. Block off the time for spending time with my adult kids. And then the work has to fit what's left. Because if I put in the work first, I'm never gonna do the self care. I'm never gonna exercise. I'm never gonna spend time with other people, and I will be unavailable for my caregiving responsibilities. And when they come up, they will hijack me. Do you do that too? Do you plan backwards?

G: I take more of a these are the lanes that are gonna be take up my life right now. So and if it doesn't fall into that lane or category, then it's just got to get tabled for a while. So for example, you know, you and I podcast a lot. It's an important part of our business and creating awareness and reaching out to people who might, you know, need us or need our advice. So that that is something that absolutely needs to happen consistently. But I have a YouTube channel, which I wanted to do all these videos but it's super, super time consuming.

So do I put even more time into the YouTube channel without any guarantee of return? Or do I have to let it go for a while? Family is important. You know, we talked about my father, that is part of my life right now is helping my father out. So I can't neglect that I can control things. We can have a helper come in the house. We can do certain things. I still have a couple marketing clients that I've worked with for a dozen years. They it's just like I could do the stuff in my sleep. They're awesome companies so that's a lane.

But when things come to me, like you say, like, can you do this or can you do that? I've got to understand if it's going to, fall into a category that I have already established to make good use of my time and energy. And will I hate to say it, I'm being selfish, but will it move my needle in the direction that I need to move it in right now because I'm busy as shit.

H: And you're self employed, and you have to control and protect your time and energy.

G: Yeah, guard your time and guard your energy. So that's the way I approach it. I don't think I can necessarily look out 90 days. Not that I can't, because I don't have the massive issue with the time horizon. I just don't think for me, it's realistic because it does it is fluid.

H: Well, I think you have a lot of obligations and responsibilities that are more unpredictable. You know, you do quite a bit of caregiving right? You're very, very involved and I think there's a lot of unpredictability there. There's a lot of spontaneity there. It probably wouldn't work so well for you at this stage of your life with the, you know, responsibilities and obligations that you have to plan out the 90 days. Because you'd have to do it in pencil, and you'd need a ginormous eraser. You know, things would constantly have to be moved around.

G: But see, that's the lesson that ADHDers need to you know, we talk about routines and structure and set a routine and all this stuff. The caveat is that there's got to be some flexibility in there, too. I mean, you can't just set a routine and say this is the way it's gonna work and then life changes. There's gotta be the acceptance of a little bit of flexibility in there. We need to get comfortable with that.

H: I think that's one of the hardest lessons to learn is to kind of identify the sweet spot for where you are in your life, where you are in your business, where you are with your other responsibilities. The sweet spot between structure and flexibility because we need both. I mean, if we don't have any structure, we can't be free range, complete free range. We won't get anything done of any consequence. But if you have too much structure, you're not taking into account how many unexpected events happen in life. And if you're a caregiver to any degree, there are plenty of unexpected events. You have to be able to respond to them.

G: Yeah, they're some rock solid routines or pieces of structure that I think busy people with ADHD entrepreneur working in a high level job can have for you know, for example, getting everything ready the night before. I mean, literally setting the coffee on a timer, charging your laptop, making your lunch, all those things that if not done, it can throw you the morning after into a complete tailspin. And, I also believe that the way you start your day is the way you're gonna end it.

H: Absolutely.

G: So there is some structure and routines that you can implement regardless of what's going on in your life. So to make life easier, it's where you gotta kinda bob and leave with the other things.

H: And really, you know, as we've been talking about burnout, we've been talking about clarity, we've been talking about control. This is really what it comes down to, is having the insight and self awareness that not having any kind of plan, not having any kind of structure, not having not thinking ahead even to the next day, your day is gonna start as a shit show, and it's only gonna get more complicated and chaotic from there. Do you think of those things like, I used to set up my workout clothes the night before because if I didn't, there's a good chance I wouldn't work out right? Meal planning, anything you can do to prepare ahead of time is setting yourself up for success. Are you thinking of that as part of the clarity and control as well?

G: Yeah. It's a big it's more control over clarity, but you can make a case for both. You have to be clear on what is going to make your life easier even if it's a nightly routine or getting out the door and getting in your car in the morning. You have to be crystal clear on what it's gonna take to do that. And then, yeah, taking control is, getting those things done in advance. Yeah, we go as far as to we cook a bunch of food on Sunday night, and then, you know, at least we can get at least a few days, maybe to, like, Thursday.

That way we can reheat food, or we just have something close to being ready. Those types of things. The coffee maker is yeah. I mean, literally, before I go to bed, I don't walk past the coffee maker without setting it up, the timer's on it, those types of things. That is the way you can control your life. You can control the possible or mitigate the possible bad morning, you know, those types of things. But yeah, that's, that's the, you could say that's a little thing, but that's part of being in control.

H: And everything I've learned about stress, compassion fatigue, which I used to lecture on to health care professionals, it was just another term for burnout. Doctors and nurses didn't want to admit that they were burned out, so we called it compassion fatigue, and they would come to my lectures. But we're talking about the same thing, right?

G: It's caregiver burnout, yeah.

H: Yeah, it can be painful and stressful to care about other people. I don't recommend the alternative, right? Not giving a shit about people or only care about yourself is pathological, not good for society either. But, knowing what you need to do and committing to doing it and not feeling any sense of shame about it, I cannot tell you and I'm sure you hear this too because you work with a lot of the same type of folks that I do. People with ADHD having this notion that I shouldn't have to do that just to get by.

Like, I shouldn't have to, you know, batch my work. I shouldn't have to plan my meals ahead. I shouldn't have to because, like, I should just be able to, like, show up and do the right thing. It's like, well, you could think about it however you want, but why wouldn't you be willing to do something that works and just not have a negative opinion about it. Like, there's a lot of shame there.

G: I find that a lot of people I have spoken to over the years and worked with in the beginning, I find out that there's a lot of room for improvement for the basics, the managing my ADHD 101. Yeah, you know, like you say, just bulletproofing your morning. You know, going for a 20 minute walk, maybe you don't have time to get to the gym. Maybe things are just crazy. Maybe you got a crazy week. But going for a 20, a 30 minute walk, maybe you got an old bicycle downstairs that, you know, or a stationary bike, you can just hop on, dust it off, those types of things. A lot of people don't do the basics, and that's, as far as I'm concerned, it's ADHD 101. So, what can we what are the simple street smart things? You know, there's a lot of crazy information about managing with your ADHD on Instagram and all this stuff.

H: TikTok.

G: TikTok, exactly. I mean, I'm a firm believer that it really does come down to a commitment to the basics. Do some people need more of a commitment than others? Yeah, do some people need medication? Absolutely, but you've got to cover the basics, especially if you're an entrepreneur with ADHD, and you have, you know, other responsibilities.

H: A 100% and I understand it's not sexy, and I understand that we all would like to believe in some magic pill. And I don't necessarily mean a physical pill, although there are a lot of people who are looking for that. This notion that there's gonna be this one thing, this one coach, this one program, this one YouTube channel, this one guru who's going to help me hack my ADHD and be able to avoid all of the struggles and leverage all of the strengths. And it will be effortless on my part, and it can just be one and done. And I'm here to tell you, you are listening to 2 seasoned professionals with ADHD who help people with ADHD, it does not exist.

And just because they're basics, just because they're foundational does not mean they are not essential. It is absolutely a fact that the right amount of exercise, a healthier diet, moving your body, having a creative outlet, spending time in nature, managing your stress. These things can have as big an impact as going to therapy and taking medication on your ADHD because they literally set your entire day as well as your body, mind, and brain up to succeed. They are not to be discounted.

G: Absolutely, I may give people too much slack, but after a couple months working 1 on 1 with somebody, if I'm still getting the sense that they haven't covered the basics, that's when I start to ratchet up the temperature.

H: That's when you put on your army uniform right?

G: I start to tighten the screws a little bit, you know and you don't wanna scare somebody right away. You wanna understand their challenges and their situations and before you before you get in their face, but at some point, you know, I'm never like that Tony Robbins type of guy when I work with somebody. But at some point, you have to call yourself on your own bullshit. And if you tell me you can't take a 20 minute walk, I'm most of the time going to disagree with you. I also say this is one of my favorite phrases. Nobody's gonna miss you for an hour you know, they're always afraid though my boss is gonna call or they're gonna email me and all that stuff, nobody's gonna miss you for an hour. They don't know where you are, go take care of yourself.

H: Yep and if you've let yourself become that, necessary to other people, you can change that. If you need help, Dave and I are both qualified people to help you with that. But the truth is the clarity and the control, especially if you are self employed with ADHD, there really isn't any other way. It's like knowing what your lanes are, as Dave says, or in my case, knowing what your values and priorities are, and creating space in your life to take care of yourself and the other people that matter, it's a must. Burnout is an inevitability, not a possibility if we don't take control and have clarity.

G: No. Nothing. It's gonna be business as usual. Like I say, I've got my lanes. I've got my buckets. That's what's gonna happen right now. Could that change in 2 weeks, absolutely. But right now, it's podcasting. It's helping people that are busy professionals, with ADHD, burned out, sometimes those 2 collide. We're doing some more speaking, starting to work on more corporate workshops for burnout because I think and again, we could do another 3 hours, but a there's a massive awareness and education piece of leadership and organizations that really need to understand the complexity of burnout like we've talked about.

H: Yeah, they definitely need to wake up because it's not a you or a me problem. It's a systemic problem, and we have to address it with solutions.

G: Exactly, systemic. It is systemic, like we talked about in the book, we're cofounders of our burnout. There's I wouldn't call it equal blame, but there's blame on both sides.

H: Yeah, and I think that's where we realize we have to participate in the solution and not just be victims of our circumstances.