Tanis Jorge, serial tech entrepreneur, author of The Cofounder's Handbook, and Founder of The Cofounder's Hub, talks about exiting “unicorn” Trulioo, meeting both her husband AND her business partner in high school, finding the right person to go into business with and building businesses without killing each other, plus what separates entrepreneurs from corporate, the shocking statistic about failure between founders, her favorite “poor woman’s meal”, and why “no business partners with benefits” is rule #1. 

Hi, good to meet you, Stephanie.

Hey, you too, I was super excited to spend some

time with you. In preparation for our time when I was reading

about your background and some of your accomplishments, there

was actually a quote that made me think of you from Rihanna.

Oh, yes. So, obviously, some of your notable accomplishments are

being one of three Canadian women accomplishing what you

have done this elite status. And the quote from Rihanna says

there's something special about a woman who dominates in a man's

world. It takes a certain grace, strength, intelligence,

fearlessness, and the nerve to never take no for an answer.

Wow, that's awesome.

So I thought maybe we could kind of start

there. As you've made this journey. I don't think you are

the typical formula for the kind of success you've had,

especially as a woman in a male dominated world totally.

Okay. Sure. So I grew up in, in a family of

salespeople, I guess that was the the start of it. My dad was

had a very successful business, which started off as a door to

door vacuum cleaner sales in the 70s. So that's, that's kind of

where we start off with. So growing up, my dad would really

use that as a framework for how he raised me. So for example,

you know, he always said to me, tennis, everything is a numbers

game, you just work hard. And eventually, you'll succeed. And,

you know, I took that to heart. And I think it actually gave me

a set of confidence that I could succeed. And whatever I put my

hand to, I guess, was the overarching understanding that I

took away from that. And I think that was really, I mean, if

everything really is just a numbers game, then, you know,

that's exciting for anybody who's got grit and

determination. So I pretty much always expected success, and it

was on me to fail. From there. I had a public school education,

you know, through elementary school, went to a private

school, in high school. And that was where I met two key figures

in my life. That was where I ended up meeting my husband, and

my long term business partner. So two people that were in high

school that definitely changed the trajectory of my life.

Little did I know it, I wasn't really scholastic. I was an

academic, I was there to socialize, we had a good time.

But one of the things that I did notice in high school was, it

didn't make sense to me that there was this formula for what

was deemed as you were a good student that didn't I didn't

fall into and again, an example of that was, I did a project I

remember one time in particular, that I kind of really went out

of the box to answer the questions and to really complete

the project. They wanted just, you know, some an essay, they

wanted worksheets filled in. And what I did was I did like a

video back in the 90s. So this was like, it took a lot of work

to do a mix video in the 90s. And I did this video, and I

remember getting like a C minus and the reason for that was

because you know, you while you didn't answer these questions

long enough, and I just thought, wow, like I really I did

something really unique here. And, and I think it was at that

point that I really felt tainted by the education system. And I

think I started to see how maybe entrepreneurship was going to be

the route that I was gonna go, you know, college university

never was anything that I was interested in. And it wasn't too

long after our graduation. I was about a year and a half later

that my best friend in high school Steven offered called me

and said, I have an idea for a business and he never went to

college or university either. I said, Sure. Let's give it a go

and more for me. The idea of working with him on a project

again, it was about fun. I'm very highly motivated by fun. So

Little did I know that was going to be the next two decades of my

life building businesses with him. What was your first job,

telemarketing, actually, I sold McLean shuttling and flair,

which is magazines in Canada. So magazine subscriptions, and then

I moved on to selling carpet cleaning telemarketing, I was

probably I want to say, probably 13 or 14 years old, and I did

that and then waitressing after that.

Ok, so then you got your buddy who calls and

says, Hey, let's do this project. Yes. You know, you're

what? 20 at the time?

Exactly.

Where did you go for resources?

So, you know, looking back, I realize we we

were very brave, or we actually just jumped in and and one of

the takeaways from that experience was the amount of

times that Steven and I would say to ourselves, why did they

teach us this in school? You know, Why were we not taught

some of this stuff? That's just very common sense. And not even

just about the actual knowledge of running a business, but also

the mentality that's required within it, you know, really

setting you up to understand that it's not easy. You know,

again, I was fortunate, I think that my father's, you know,

mantras in my head, hey, just keep going. It's a numbers game.

That was was a big part of it. But honestly, we really felt our

way through everything. There was a shift in technology, we

were really learning that the tech scene was not very mature

yet. So this was a time when it was $50,000. If you wanted to

build a website, you know, now you can do it with, you know,

free on Wix. Right. So it was a very different time. And we had

to be very strategic on the capital that we had, and really

anticipate what we were doing. And it was really, it was a

trial and error in so many ways.

So that first project, what level of success

did it have?

So we built that company, it took us three years,

and it was successfully acquired after three years.

Bought by Experian?

Exactly. And then we built two more companies.

After that each of them took about three years to build, and

successfully exit. They were also acquired. So over 10 years,

three companies, all of them were acquired. So we were very

fortunate for that, too.

If you don't mind being vulnerable enough to

share, what were some of the challenges that you faced? How

did you overcome them?

So it was very interesting. So for 10 years, I

built three companies. And then we started Trulioo, which was

our biggest venture that we had. And about three or four years

into that venture, I started to get questions, you know, I start

to get calls from people saying, listen, could I have you come

and speak about being a woman in tech? And I remember the very

first time I was asked that, and I thought that was a very odd

question. Because I had never thought about myself in that

world as a woman, like it never was a major component that I

considered, I never actually saw it as ways of being an advantage

at times, actually. And, and I think it was interesting, co

founding a business as a, like a male, female, we actually took

advantage of that, we learned about human personality. And we

started to identify that there was people who were sometimes

more comfortable around men or more comfortable around women.

And there were times would be like, we would say to one

another, a, you take this because I think she likes you.

You know, she hasn't, she's more comfortable around here, she

doesn't seem to, you know, maybe that was the case. And so for us

building our businesses, it was a small element. And when it was

utilized, it was to our advantage, so to speak of it as

a woman in a man's world, I can honestly say I didn't ever

really feel that was my experience. And it's

interesting, as I've had the opportunity to speak to women in

different venues about business, I find that the response I get

afterwards, especially from young female entrepreneurs, is

almost a sigh of relief, that they really believe sometimes

that going out into these industries that are male

dominant, that it's going to be a terrifying experience. And to

hear that in many cases, it's just going to be normal, and

it's going to fall on you having an incredible business model.

And that's where the pressure is gonna lie. I think it can

actually take a little bit of pressure off of these young

young women. And you know, we were the underdogs in many ways

already. because of our lack of formal education. I say

underdogs, if anybody approached us about anything, it was about

the fact that, Oh, you don't have a universe, like what

degrees do you have? And if anything, if there was anything

we were pushing back on, it was our lack of education. So maybe

if I was focused on anything that I thought needy was, was

what would be putting us at a disadvantage? It was that

component.

Okay, so now talking about this

entrepreneurial mindset, because one of the things I do think

that's coming out of this next generation, is I think that they

are way more entrepreneurial by nature than mine or the

generation before etc. So when folks are and you mentioned

something about this, about this, just mindset a little bit.

What do you think sets that entrepreneurial mindset apart

from the rest?

Yeah, you know, it's risk aversion. I just had a

I had an advisor meeting with somebody yesterday, you know, he

started off on What books should I be reading? You know, what,

what do I need to get ready? What did you think of this and

really in depth in depth questions, and I said to him,

ultimately, at some point, you're not going to have all

your ducks in a row. At some point. You got to jump off the

cliff, and you're not going to know what's at the bottom,

you're going to pull your parachute. And it may or may not

be there. And you need to understand that you will never

know exactly the next step in front of you. And I think for a

lot of people, even just their core personality is not set for

that environment, I actually very much flourish, I seek that

environment out. So I know that I'm already built internally in

that way. But at the same time, I've also had experience under

my belt, and I understand that you will never know everything,

and you just have to go for it. And I think that is what

separates the entrepreneur from someone who stays in, say a

corporate job is they they get to the point where the security

is no longer there, and they have to make that decision. Do I

continue? Or do I? Do I stop, because it's too risky. That's

where the rubber meets the road. And that will determine whether

or not you up and down. So it really is just saying, I'm going

to do this.

I love that. I think being true to yourself to

your point you go I flourish in those environments. And if you

don't, that might be something you need to listen to. And if

you don't do, that's probably something you need to listen to

as well.

Absolutely, and I had my co founder, I had Steven

as well. And I think you know, it is extremely valuable to have

that person beside you. So when you're down, they're there to

lift you up. That's a big piece as well in success. So if you

are more of a risk adverse person, or if you really worry

about that journey ahead, finding that person beside you

to run along with you is one of the probably one of the greatest

assets that you can have.

So that's exactly where I wanted to go

next. So you mentioned Hey, for you, you were lucky to meet this

person in high school? Yes, I would imagine by the time you

guys started working together, there's a there was a foundation

of a relationship. There was trust, most people aren't going

to probably have that. So what do they look for? How do they

know this is the right partnership? And I know part of

it is trial and error. But what other counsel would you give to

help with that?

Yeah, so I've been fortunate as I've, as I

researched for my book, I have talked with hundreds of

entrepreneurs and hundreds of co founders, and heard their

stories of how they met people. And interestingly, it runs the

gamut. I have had people who never met their co founder and

they that person flew over to their city, and they met at the

airport for the first time only after a couple of conversations.

You know, that was one story to people who its family, it's

their best friend, it's people they met at a at a conference,

it's people they met at work, it was an old high school friend,

or an old elementary school friend that they ran into at the

grocery store and got talking about something, you really

never know where that person is that that can come into your

life. And for people who are need to be, you know,

aggressively looking for a co founder, there's tons of

different ways that you can do that, whether through meetups or

really going after your network, one of the things that I say to

people is that you are going to need to do the first task of an

entrepreneur and that is put yourself out there. And so it's

talking to people to say listening, I listen, I'm looking

for a business partner. This is a bit about what the role will

entail. This is a bit about my business. Do you know anybody?

Do you maybe know somebody that I can do an intro me and I'll

reach out to them and, and I think for some people, that's

scary as well. But really utilizing your network and

taking advantage of those people who know you and know the people

that will give the recommendation. That's a big

one.

As you think about what you've done, up until

this point, you know, it's easy to look at your accomplishments

and say, Oh, you must be so proud. You must be so proud. But

I'm always surprised when I ask folks this questions. While they

appreciate the accolades, they appreciate that, quite frankly,

Tanis you're probably in the midst of making history. You

know, my kids, kids are probably going to learn about you in 2030

years from now. But for you like when you think about what you've

done so far, what are the things you're most proud of what really

puts a smile on your face before you fall asleep at night?

I guess it would be the beats the odds story. You

kicked the podcast off in the very beginning and just said,

you know, you didn't have that typical journey. And I think

that that has been something that I am proud of. I had big

dreams as a little girl. I always did. I always aspired for

more. And I looked around me, and I wondered how I would get

that we lived in you know, my parents live paycheck to

paycheck in a lot of ways. I lived in a not so great

neighborhood, and I knew that there was mega success. stuff

out there. And I had no idea how that was ever going to come

about. I didn't have the network, my parents didn't have

any connections for me, there was nothing. So, you know, I

think it's having that vision that I had at an early stage, I

had vision boards at 17, you know, on my fridge of everything

and, and I really had these big dreams and the fact that I am

where I am today, and I complement it, it's actually

surprising because the steps along the way, I'd never

thought, Here I am, I'm building. I'm building what, you

know, the successful experience. At the time, it did not feel

that it was like, What am I doing? I was spinning my wheels

here, you know, and then after a few years goes by them, but we

had a success. Okay, great. And then the question goes, Well, I

gotta do that again. You know, every time we built a business,

it was back at scratch again, it was what are the chances of

succeeding a second time, you know, and that that

discouragement, almost in doubt, is really, really heavy. And

then we did it a second time. And it was like, Okay, that was

a fluke. You know, it's got to be deep in the back of your

mind, you're like, how are we going to do it again, we have to

do it again, you know, and then slowly, you start to see that,

oh, maybe we've got a system here. Maybe we've got a bit of a

pattern that we're able to duplicate. But at the time, it

didn't feel like that. So I guess I'm most proud that that I

took that journey, despite really deep down feeling I

wouldn't succeed necessarily.

Ok, I've got a silly question.

Oh, I like silly questions.

Okay. So you come from, you know, a certain

kind of background. You mentioned earlier, having to,

you know, develop your own financial literacy. So that

first big paycheck, what fun thing did you buy yourself?

Oh gosh, I paid debts off. And the first like

two, three businesses. I think of geez, we went straight to

real estate, a condo is still there's still a condo, but we

splurged and we bought in this neighborhood that we've always

wanted, as by the beach. And I think that would have been

really definitely where we we sunk our first sort of extra

cash.

So what's next?

So when Trulioo, my final venture, I decided that it

was time for me to exit the day to day and I stepped out, I was

trying to figure out what it is that I wanted to do with my

life. And I looked at two things. One was I love to

travel, and I love to public speak. Those are the two things

that I really enjoyed. And I thought, well, what am I going

to talk about? And I could obviously talk about

entrepreneurship had had some success under under my belt, so

I could talk about that. But I felt that was crowded. And then

I thought about the people again, who would approach me and

said, How have you built multiple businesses with the

same person, and you haven't killed each other yet? You know,

that was the premise. And I realized, as I started to do

research, that there wasn't a lot of tools for people. And I

have a huge passion for entrepreneurship, I think it is

the foundation of our financial system. I think it is this

foundation of our nations, I think it's so important, those

dreamers are so valuable. And I figured this would be a way that

I could really help entrepreneurs out by assisting

in the partnership. And so I began on a journey, just

interviewing co founders. And I wrote the book, the co founders

handbook, from that, I've realized, again, that there is

even more that can be done to assist co founders. So we I

started the co founders hub, which is a platform and resource

for entrepreneurs to be able to build stronger partnerships.

There's tools, resources, there's there's events coming

and, and all of this, and I'm really at that stage now where

I've done success ready for significance. And at the same

time, really want to build into the next stage of entrepreneurs

that are out there in the grind, and they've got this person

beside them. And that person is are their greatest asset or

their biggest liability in their business. And I want to make

sure that it is the greatest asset.

Very cool. A lot has changed since you first

started your first business with you know, it's I think it's a

lot more commonplace. We see side hustles all the time

popping up, which I think to your point is that's really the

foundation of most of our world. And I think we got away from it

as a society for a while. And I think with this next generation,

especially it's really coming back thoughts advice, counsel,

first thing you want to share with someone who says, Hey, I

think I want to be an entrepreneur.

So I the first thing that I would tell people

is obviously if you can find a mentor, find an idea, obviously,

that fills a need, and find somebody who's succeeding in

some way or another in that and sit at their feet. And it'd be

humble. I think one of the key messages for today's generation

is to really also I've understand it's going to be

hard. And and, and it's going to be more expensive and take more

time, like the classic story of all businesses. But it's also I

think, one of the greatest achievements one can have in

their life. And so being able to really undertake that journey is

worth it for anybody. So I would tell them, find a mentor, really

anticipate what it will take to get that business up and going,

get educated in that industry, obviously, but also recognize

that every business has sales in the end. So always add education

and sales, you're gonna have to pitch yourself, even if you're a

dentist, you have to you got to be in sales. So really, you

know, getting that well rounded. But mostly, it's that mentality

that this is going to be a sacrifice, you won't have all

the answers, but enjoy the journey as you do it.

No, I think that is so powerful. I appreciate you

sharing that. Because especially in this day and age of instant

gratification, you see what is set up to look like oh, they

just hit it big overnight. And when you really delve into

people's stories, it really wasn't like that. And even your

story from the outside could almost appear that way. Hey, you

know, three businesses, they were all great. But to your

point, you said it takes longer. It's more work and it costs

more. That's reality. Yeah, if you're living for the get rich

quick and publicity of it all, you're probably going to be in

for incredibly rude awakening, and it'll be short lived.

Absolutely. If there is any any side note on

that, too, is that I we never took a paycheck until we sold

our business. We didn't have that luxury. So we worked

always. So when people say Oh, you were so lucky. I'm like,

Well, would you go three years without a paycheck? And you're

writing checks to your employees? And you're like,

hoping out we never we never took a paycheck until our

businesses sold. So again, that is that's a key piece of it as

well.

So another silly question if I could. So our

mothership Southwestern family companies, we got our start, it

was a publishing company, but became really, we really made

our name for ourselves through working with students, and they

go out and sell books door to door in the summer. Oh, it's an

incredible program called Southwestern advantage. It's

just really amazing. You know, you work 1216 hours a day, you

save every dime that you possibly can for the idea of

this big check at the end of the summer. And so, to this day, one

of my favorite poor man meals or woman meals, whatever you want

to call it, is a peanut butter and jelly. Like that's what I

ate all summer long to save money. Bread was cheap. Peanut

butter was cheap. Jelly is cheap, it would keep all day

long, so I didn't have to worry about refrigerating it. To this

day. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches is a comfort food for

me. Even though it was a really hard time. I was working my butt

off. You know all these things. But it's a comfort food. So do

you have a poor woman's something that you ate? That

takes you back to those days?

Yeah for sure. I think it would be chicken with

cream of mushroom soup with a can of cream of mushroom soup.

And like, really like white? White bread like super, super

thick, fluffy, filled with chemicals? Not like white toast

bread with a to dip in the cream of mushroom soup with your

chicken?

So you're laid up in bed, your husband's like,

Honey, what can I make for you? And you're like, I need the

chicken with cream of mushroom. Please? And the really bad

bread.

Exactly. Exactly. That's totally it. I love it.

Anything else you want to make sure we talk

about or hit on while we're together?

I don't know. You know, I think that for me,

obviously the message right now is to to talk to people who are

in a partnership and who are looking to get into one about

the kind of the hard work that that's going to take so many

people focus when they start a business on how are they going

to get to revenues? How are they going to build an incredible

product. But what they don't realize is that 65% of

businesses are going to fail because of issues between the

founders. If people are not being intentional with that

relationship, often they do kind of a set it and forget it

experience where they just sign the partnership agreement.

That's the last time they ever put any thought into it. And

unfortunately, what I see over and over again, is issues and

conflict arising which is really, you know, preventable in

so many ways. And it's unfortunate and this is why I

wrote the book is because it doesn't need to be that way. It

doesn't take much but it takes maturity to build that

relationship. And I think that that is my focus right now is to

really explain to people that it's not something that you can

just jump into and let alone you actually be on a daily, weekly,

monthly annually basis have to sit down and go, How are we?

Oh my god, it sounds like a marriage,

It is I will completely the only difference.

The only difference is that...

The sex? Just kidding.

No partners with benefits, thats number one.

Absolutely no, that I think that the only difference is is that

in a marriage, you're focused on each other's happiness. But if

you can, in a partnership, you want to focus on the happiness

of the business. And I think if you run everything through that

filter, which is what is this the best thing for the business,

then any situation or issue that arises, there are actually ways

to remedy them. Without the emotional, I always take the

example of people who want a family member, their spouse or

their kid to work in the business. And the other partner

doesn't want that, you know, if I say I don't want your wife in

the business, you know, that's highly emotional charged

comment. So you can say, Oh, interesting, what's best for the

business? Is she the right person for the role? Are we

going to make the best decision? Is it going to affect culture,

for the business, you know, these kinds of things, it can

kind of take that away. So while in many ways, it parallels a

marriage in that particular way. It should and needs to have a

different filter that everything's run through. It

sounds so logical, it does. But when you're in the

entrepreneurial journey, it's a roller coaster, you're

constantly putting on full out fires, you're constantly on this

person, you can take them for granted very easily. But if you

can make sure that you are to each other that cheerleader,

that coach, that accountability partner, then that journey is so

much easier and so much better. It seems easy, but just like in

a marriage, it's very easy to take people for granted.

Well it seems logical, but to your point,

we're very emotional beings. So super helpful. Tanis, thank you

so much. I've really appreciated you carving out some time

thoroughly enjoyed our time together.

I really appreciate it. Thank you, Stephanie.