The podcast delves into the multifaceted life of Michael 'Kalel' Wittig, whose journey as a musician transcends mere performance. His leadership in the business aspects of Pillar showcases a pivotal understanding of the music industry's dynamics, particularly in the context of financial management.

Wittig shares candid insights about the challenges faced by musicians, emphasizing the importance of resilience and adaptability in navigating the tumultuous waters of the music business. He reflects on the band's strategic decisions, including the choice to focus on regional recognition before expanding their reach, thereby establishing a solid foundation that would support their later success.

Furthermore, Wittig discusses the significance of communication within the band, highlighting how improved interpersonal dynamics could have altered the course of their history. The episode serves as a poignant reminder that the journey of a musician is not merely about artistry but also about the intricate business acumen that underpins their success.

www.pillarmusic.com

Pillar Facebook & Instagram: @pillarmusic

Michael Wittig Instagram: @wittigworks

Michael Wittig Facebook: @michaelwittig

Backstage Money Facebook & Instagram: @backstagemoney

Grab your free e-book, A Musicians Guide to Infinite Banking at www.1024weath.com/music

Jason K Powers: Welcome to Backstage Money, real World Finance for Musicians.

I'm your host, Jason K. Powers.

This is where music and money collide honest stories and practical

lessons from people who make it work.

Let's get to it.

Today I am joined by Michael Kalel, bassist for the band Pillar

Hard Rock Band behind songs like Fireproof and The Reckoning,

which earned Grammy nominations.

A pillar released nine studio albums, three eps.

And what do you got?

24 whopping singles.

That's a lot.

And you guys won multiple Dove Awards, even has an exciting announcement

here at the end of the show, which I'm excited to share with everybody too.

Michael Offstage, he's even been a business owner involved

in fitness acting modeling.

There's no grass growing under your feet.

Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Hey, thanks for having me, Jason.

And as far as all the stats, you know better than me, man.

A lot of that stuff I forgot.

So thanks for the reminder.

Jason K Powers: Yeah, that's, that's awesome, man.

What do you not do?

Is there anything you don't do?

I was, I was reading up on you a little bit and you're, you got

your hands in quite a few things.

You know,

Michael Kalel Wittig: I, I'm not very good at fixing things or working on my car.

Jason K Powers: There

Michael Kalel Wittig: you go.

I can make a mean hamburger and a steak though, and I'm a pretty good dad, but

Jason K Powers: there you go.

There you go.

Well, Michael, hey, before we get into the, the nitty gritty of stuff,

I always love to hear from people, you know, how did you get started?

How did you get into music?

You know, I heard there was maybe even a little bit of a, a Bill and Ted story

in there somewhere way back when too.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Yeah, man.

That's exactly how it happened.

So back when I was about 15 or so.

Man, I saw that movie Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure came out and just

really inspired me to, to wanna learn to play electric guitar, you know, so

I, I just thought about it a lot and.

It took a little bit, but I finally talked my mom into get me a guitar.

And my worship pastor, his name was Chris at our little local church in

Southern California that I went to taught me how to play and I started

playing on the worship team at church.

And of all the denominations, it was a Lutheran church as well, which

you normally wouldn't think have a. They would have a worship band with

an electric guitar, but they did

Jason K Powers: Uhhuh

' Michael Kalel Wittig: cause the worship leader, his dad was the pastor.

So I, that's how I learned how to play.

And at an early age, even 15, 16, I was the guy putting the bands together.

I'd find other musicians we'd practice in my garage.

You know, I'd try to book local shows and it just built from there.

And it's something I always had a heart for and knew.

I just knew that it was what I was supposed to do.

You know, it seemed like a long shot and I had no idea what I was doing,

especially back then, but I just kept at it and, 'cause I just knew

in my heart it was, it was gonna lead somewhere and it eventually did.

Jason K Powers: That's awesome.

And you, you hear that quite a bit from, from band members and.

Who, who are really making it, who've made it kind of, you know, and, and

made a career out of it at some point.

And, and that is a, a common theme, right?

Just early on it was like, I, I really just knew, you know, and

you have that, that hardwired passion, I would say, right?

This you were, you were designed that way, you know?

Michael Kalel Wittig: Yeah.

I just never gave up.

I mean, that's really the secret.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig: You, there's no one way to, to make, to break a band.

There is no one way.

There's, there's so many ways.

Every band can have their own path.

But the real key is just not to give up.

You're gonna hit a lot of roadblocks and a lot of things are gonna go wrong.

Your van or your bus is gonna break down.

Your show's gonna get canceled, someone's not gonna pay you.

Band members are gonna quit.

You're gonna fight.

Just, all that stuff's going to happen at some point.

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

Michael Kalel Wittig: You just have to decide not to quit because

you learn from each experience.

And if it's what you're meant to do, you know, it'll eventually happen.

Jason K Powers: That's great.

So take me back and, and you're in high school and, and trying to start

your own bands and things like this.

How did, how did.

Pillar in particular get started.

Michael Kalel Wittig: I was always doing Christian bands when I was younger in

Riverside, California, in high school.

Eventually when I graduated high school, my mom moved us to Kansas

'cause that's where she was raised.

Middle of nowhere, Kansas too.

Like a town of 5,000 people.

I'm talking brick roads.

The roads there, the cars drove on, were bricks.

There's still bricks right now out there.

In, in that town.

There was no Christian musicians, so I just jammed with the guys that

were there, you know, and we just did, you know, whatever, whatever

we could do, just secular stuff.

There really wasn't places to play.

So we were just writing and trying to, trying to put bands together.

And I eventually put a band together.

Called Mishap.

We were just playing rock and just playing local clubs and stuff.

Eventually we got booked at a festival in Dighton, Kansas.

Small town out in the middle of nowhere.

But this young promoter had all these bands booked and put on a great event.

And that same day that my band mishap played, a brand new

band called Pillar was playing.

Now, they didn't have a bass player though.

Okay.

At the time, and there was early members and I remember talking to

Rob, I met Rob, our singer that day and we were talking and he is

like, yeah, we need a bass player.

And I remember watching them thinking, wow, they're really good.

He has a good voice.

I saw a lot of potential there.

And he said, yeah, we could use a bass player.

And they had just started.

So I set my thought about and prayed about, and I remember driving from college

to my apartment and just getting really just hit in the heart, you know, by God

that, hey, you need to be in Pillar.

So I pulled over and had to just feel that and think about it.

And the band that I started mishap, basically, if I'm not in

that band, that band breaks up.

So I had to call those guys and say, you know what?

I'm so sorry guys.

I, I'm gonna leave this band and join this band Pillar and, I took on that base roll

and kind of kept my mouth shut early on.

But soon the business side of me couldn't be contained.

And I was like, okay guys, we need press kits, we need photos.

I'm gonna start booking shows.

I started just, you know, putting everyone to work when it came to

marketing and business and, you know, kind of everyone fell in their role

at that point and that's when the band really started getting busy.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

So, so let's talk about that for a minute.

You know, before the show started, we were talking about kind of.

The, the many hats you wear and have worn throughout your pillar career.

So, so break that down for me.

Like how did that pan out for, for you?

I mean, what were you doing early on?

How did that transition as you guys got bigger and, and what role

Michael Kalel Wittig: you

Jason K Powers: playing now?

Maybe kind of take us through the whole process.

Michael Kalel Wittig: So first I need to put a disclaimer that every band

member has their role and their vital.

It wasn't a Michael Kelle show, not by any means.

I had my roles, but the band wouldn't have worked without everybody doing their part.

My part, I have always been gifted with just marketing business, booking shows.

That's just kind of been my specialty.

I have a drive for it, and I always did, even at that young age.

Now also, I want everybody to remember that the music business 20 years ago

back, we started the band in 1999 and started getting big traction in 2000.

Music business 25 years ago is a lot different than it is now.

So when we started, I didn't have a laptop and I didn't even have a cell phone.

I was going to the computer lab at school and eventually I got a a home computer.

At our apartment or our little house, band house that we had and had a big computer

and was using a landline, or I was on a payphone if we're out doing shows.

So doing business back then was completely different game.

You know, I was mailing physical press kits, you know, mailing people

cassettes and CDs through the mail, because that's just how you did it.

It was right before EPK started coming out, but once that technology

was being utilized for booking, yeah, we started using it.

But back then it was.

First of all, making our band look as presentable as possible, you know, so

trying to have a photo shoot, you know, having press materials made up a press

kit back then, which I actually had a physical copy, and then eventually EPK,

having that materials, doing research on where we could play, you know, we

started within the state of Kansas.

Small towns, schools, churches, bowling alleys, it didn't

matter any place we could play.

I spent most of my day researching these venues and then contacting them and you

know, and just presenting the band a professional manner and getting us booked.

So when we were in college and still independent.

We played enough shows every weekend where we eventually quit our jobs, so

we didn't have to work at Pizza Hut or Walmart where everyone was working.

So we were able to do that because we were playing enough shows.

We played, you know, six to eight shows, 10 shows a month

while going to college and.

Eventually we, we kind of saturated Kansas and started

playing the surrounding states.

So my idea was for us to be really known in the Midwest in Kansas and

the Midwest versus playing everywhere and nobody knowing who we are.

You know, we tried to be a beacon of light in the Kansas versus little blips all over

that no one's gonna ever notice or see.

It was easier to get noticed.

In a place like Kansas where you wouldn't think what's going on in

Kansas, but if you're the abandoned in Kansas, it can, it can, those waves

will get heard in LA and New York.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig: So when we were, when we finished school and we decided,

okay, we were playing enough shows that we can actually pay our bills

now, and then we got signed during that time, before we actually really

took off nationally with a label.

Though I had us booked six, six weeks on a six week tour

that we booked into in-house.

We did everything in house.

So we left the summer, our last semester of school and when we called

it quits, went on a six week tour.

And it turned out financially, you know, we didn't make a lot of money,

but we didn't lose money, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And that's how we were doing things.

You know, we had a school bus that we gutted, painted white.

Yeah.

We had our own PA system.

It wasn't great, but it worked for shows.

It helped us book more shows and you know, we went on a six week tour and

came back and just went full time.

Jason K Powers: Do you think that, that say the, the timeframe of the

tour, you know, that six week tour do you think that was sort of pivotal

to, the trajectory of the band?

Michael Kalel Wittig: It was definitely part of the story

because we were able to do it.

Okay.

We didn't kill each other and implode.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Which some bands will do when you're together that long.

Sure.

We were, we were, we didn't go home for six weeks.

We were gone.

You know, we were tough enough to do it.

We made an impact on people.

We made fans then that we still have today.

We made some contacts in promoter radio station connections that were

vital to band, to pillar launching.

It wasn't like the end all, but it was definitely validation that, Hey, we have

something here and we can do something with this because we pulled that off.

Jason K Powers: Right.

So you guys were.

Doing all your own promotion and, and marketing and anything you could do,

you know, schlepping, all your own stuff around and, and did, once you

got signed shortly thereafter, how did that change the game for you guys?

Or did it.

Michael Kalel Wittig: So it did.

So like I said, being the powerhouse in Kansas and then slowly spreading to

surrounding states, it made an impact.

Word got out, you know, now I was always researching what labels,

what Christian labels are out there, what Christian radio stations.

But I was still learning the, that game.

I wasn't professional.

I'm still not professional.

I'm still trying to learn, but back then I didn't know anything.

So I was just probing.

Learning.

Eventually our stuff got in the hands of the members of Audio

Adrenaline, who was a huge Christian band in the early two thousands.

They were massive.

One of the biggest ones, I would say, just below DC Talk and News Boys, they

were probably the number three biggest Christian Rockish Act out there.

And they were starting a label at that same time called Flicker Records.

They actually had already launched it.

Somehow they got ahold of our press kit and I remember getting

a call in our band house.

Me, Rob and, our original guitar player, had a house.

Near the college where we all lived and practiced.

I remember getting a call on our landline from Bob Herdman with Flicker Records.

Didn't know who they were at the time, didn't know who Bob was at the

time, and I said, yeah, that's cool.

Took their information.

Was reading a Christian magazine called 7Ball.

It was big back in the time there was CCM and then 7Ball Magazine was a Christian

music magazine and I remember reading it and it talked about a Audio Adrenaline

and their new record label Flicker records with founding members, Bob Herdman.

Will McGinniss Mark Stuart and I was like, Hey, that's who called, you know?

So we, we jumped on it, overnighted him a, a CD mark got it on the road.

They're on tour and said, Hey, why don't you guys come up to Wichita, Kansas?

We have a show, we wanna meet you guys.

So we drove to Wichita and met 'em at some coliseum and

talked, and the rest is history.

They signed us and you know, at that point we had a manager.

Now we have a label now who had a publicist.

They have a radio team.

It was just the whole whirlwind.

We're gonna get you in the studio.

We're gonna rerecord your independent album.

You got this photo shoot.

Who is, who is Toby Mac's sister did our first photo shoot.

You know, we had a stylist and brought all these clothes and it was just, it was a

fun time because it was all new to us at that level, you know, and they put us on

some cool tours that we wouldn't, would not have been able to get on without them.

You know, the, our first tour was Winter Jam, actually.

Winter jam 25 years ago.

So we were playing coliseums in front of thousands of people, you know, early on.

And it was, it was pretty amazing.

Jason K Powers: Was that just surreal going, going from that and then

thinking back like, gosh, you know,

Michael Kalel Wittig: we started

Jason K Powers: out here in, in Kansas or back all the way back to when you

first got started, you know, and playing,

Michael Kalel Wittig: I, I always, I knew.

Early on, I knew that I was gonna do something to music.

Once I met the pillar guys and we were started, I knew without

a shadow of a doubt that Pillar was going to do something big.

I felt it.

In my heart, I'll say it was God's calling and I knew it without a shadow of a doubt.

I don't know if the other guys did.

I, I think they had like, I don't know.

Let's do this.

Let's see how it turns out.

I knew otherwise, so I was pretty relentless.

And if you talked to any other guys and asked me.

What kind of mindset and work ethic I had back then they'll, you'll hear

words like crazy relentless, like just I was, I mean, I would get no sleep.

I was just on the phone eventually on the laptop, just 24 7 making moves for us.

'cause I believed in what we were doing.

You know, Rob has always been anointed.

Even then, when he was an early Christian, we started out on the mic.

Not, I'm not gonna be talking about singing, but just speaking

and, and relating to people and, and presenting God's word.

He has always been anointed and I knew back then he will eventually be a pastor.

And what does he do nowadays?

He's a pastor.

Jason K Powers: Okay.

Michael Kalel Wittig: I just believed in what we were doing musically

and just spiritually and what Rob could do on the mic for people.

So we were relentless and, and it, it was surreal, but for me it was kinda like, I

knew we would, I knew we would do this.

I still loved it.

Thought it was awesome every time we did something, but I, for me, I, I was kind

of actually in a bad place mentally.

I wish I could have been a little different because I was always working.

These great things were happening and I was already thinking what's

next versus living in the moment now.

Now at 49 years old, I've learned to tame myself a little bit and balance my life

better and live in the moment a lot more.

Mm-hmm.

Back then, I was tunnel vision and focused and always thinking of the next thing.

Jason K Powers: So let's talk about that for a minute.

Like what advice would you give?

Well, any band really that's, that's growing or exploding into big things,

you know, and, and finding a balance between, like you said, living in

the moment versus just zeroed in and missing everything, you know?

Or, or, I, I, a lot of the times it happens the other way around.

They're so.

In the moment that you're missing

Michael Kalel Wittig: a lot of, yeah, it's a, it's a balance because you

have to be careful because you have to realize that a band is a business,

so there's the band side playing shows, hanging out with people.

You know, doing that stuff and just writing music and having fun.

But then there's the corporation and the taxes and the bills.

You have to pay.

Yeah, pay and the finances and trying to make money to support your

family so you can keep doing it.

They're, they're two separate things and they both have to be balanced and minded.

You know, I will say when we were younger, I wish we knew now what we know now.

Back then, you know, I think we could have been more financially.

Successful on the business side, if we did things a little smarter, you

know, we were young and didn't know and probably didn't save right and

invest our things in the right things.

So I would say my best advice to young bands trying to make it, or

maybe who just starting to make it.

'cause there's a difference between being independent, doing everything

yourself, and then once you get signed and you have a manager and a booking

agent, they're different situations.

Once you are newly signed or just at that point where you need to have a team.

That's where you have to be really, really wise, who your team members are.

You have to have the right team that have your best interest in heart,

because if they don't, they're not really looking out for your finances.

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

Michael Kalel Wittig: You know, so, so yeah.

We've had experiences where the wrong representation.

You know, probably didn't do us justice financially, you know, because

maybe we had the wrong team member, maybe out of excitement because hey,

this guy manages this guy, this guy, these big bands that we look up to.

Hey, we're gonna be like those big bands.

You get starstruck even with managers and agents and stuff, and you may

pick the wrong one that really doesn't have your best interest in heart.

Mm-hmm.

So I would just say be very wise, be very prayerful on who you have on your

team, and make sure that they are.

Really looking out for your best interest and how your money is

spent, and then just because you have a team, don't trust everybody.

It could be your best buddy or a family member doing your finances or whatever,

but, but as a business owner, you are a business owner, not just a songwriter.

You need to know what's going on with your books or your money's going.

You need to, you need to learn that stuff.

You don't need to let it consume and take up your whole day, but

you need to know what's going on.

Just to make sure things are being fiscally responsible.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

And, and it's funny because, you know, I always say like, money

does funny things to people.

You know, when when money becomes the primary conversation, right?

It does a lot of funny things to people I, I've heard so many stories with

artists and how things take a left hand turn, you know, all of a sudden.

'cause just like that you we're watching something, something came up.

So tell me what's uh,

Michael Kalel Wittig: thankfully that's never been our problem.

We didn't ever have that problem because we never made the millions and

millions that would with someone's mind.

I think for me it was more of a lack of concern of money because

I did all my work for passion.

You know what, I'm, I still, I'm still like that when I, when I have

something on my heart now it's, you know, fitness, still music

'cause we're still doing Pillar.

Back then it was all Pillar.

My passion was so great for our mission, for our fans, and

just do building the business.

It was so much fun.

I could care less about how much money I made.

I just didn't concern myself with that.

My wife picked the money and, you know, pay the bills and I

didn't even know what we made.

I didn't even care.

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

Michael Kalel Wittig: You know, it was more of that.

So I wish that we would've been more, just had a better business since back

then, obviously we did enough 'cause we were, you know, full time and supported.

Our families we're doing things right.

But I think if we would've done things a little bit better, we would be in

a lot different place financially, even now today, if we would've

did things better 20 years ago.

Jason K Powers: What's some of the, let's say, hard lessons, you

know, spinning off of that idea?

Like what, what kinds of things do you think you, if you guys

Michael Kalel Wittig: having the right manager, having the right manager

that's gonna make smart decisions.

Okay.

We, we, I'm not gonna downplay or talk bad about any specific person because certain

ones did great things for us and loved us.

Still might've made a mistake or two, then there might've been one that probably

didn't have our best interest in heart.

So having those team members are vital and making sure that you're really,

they really care about you and are gonna look out for your best interest.

You have the wrong manager.

They could make some wrong.

They could not only just be using your money for things that

have nothing to do with you.

They could get you into bad deals that don't make sense in bad situations

that you don't want to be in.

It's huge.

And then when you have to sign contracts.

With labels and publishing companies and managers, you just really need to look

at those contracts and you probably need to spend some money, invest some money

on a very legitimate entertainment lawyer that's going to go through that stuff with

a fine to con, I can't say the expression

Jason K Powers: tooth, fine tooth that.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Fine tooth comb and make look for the little things

that, that are gonna get you in trouble or cost you a lot of money.

So we're not contract lawyers.

We don't know.

You know, so that kind of stuff is very important.

And I wouldn't rely on a, a, a lawyer that the label suggests, don't do that.

'cause that's, they're looking out for them.

Or maybe even your manager.

It's like, if, and even if your manager suggests one, you need

to vet that lawyer yourself.

You need to talk to them yourself.

Make sure they're, they're credible, make sure they're actually working

for you and not other parties, because those, those percentages and those

deals, and they can, you know, get you in a bad situation or you could make

a lot less money than you should be.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's important in general just, just as a business owner, right,

because you're, you're a business owner at that point, and identifying

the things you're not good at.

And, and, and going, okay, we need to bring in the right

people for those things.

Like you said, you know, we're, we're playing in the band.

We're not contract lawyers.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Yeah.

Jason K Powers: You know, so find, find the right people.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Yep.

Right.

It's huge.

Jason K Powers: Stink at marketing.

Find people who go market for you.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Have an accountant.

If you're not great with money, have an accountant that can keep your books.

Keep, we never got audited.

But keeping you from getting audited, making sure your taxes are being

paid, make sure your books are being done smart, so you're paying just the

taxes you need to pay and not overpay.

Yeah.

You know that you're getting the right, the, the write offs and all the things

you need to be doing, you know, so yeah, you need to have a proper accountant,

make sure your corporation and, you know, we had a sub s corporation.

Having some type of business structure or some type of corporation,

depending on your situation, I think is vitally important.

You know, having that, that corporation own assets is important.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, there's just a lot of things that that can.

Make or break you later on down the line.

Once you do get successful, you need to have that foundation

of business really strong.

The stronger you can have that with dependable team members,

the more successful you could be.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

What's another say, hard lesson you guys learned along the way that that you

would, you would've done differently?

You would do differently now?

Michael Kalel Wittig: I would say within, really the most important thing

of any band is the band itself and the relationships and the communication.

So I would say, and this is stuff we talk about now, you know, and, and we're

gonna, we got some news for you later on in this podcast that I'll be able

to talk about more in a little bit.

But, but one of the things that we all wish we had were better at, were

communication 20 years ago, or a bunch of young men would've, men not like

to do, talk about their feelings.

You know, it's not something we like to do as men, especially back then, you know.

Something make us mad or we hold the grudge.

We just hold that stuff in and eventually it just explodes.

You know, it's, it's pillar never broke up.

We just kind of had to take a break.

But a lot of it was due to miscommunication.

I think if we would've been better communicating when we were younger.

A pillar may have never stopped.

We had never, maybe we would've never had a break.

Maybe we would've been in a completely different place financially if

we kept building that business for the last 10 years, 15 years

that we've been off, you know?

So I would say just, just be honest with each other, with your band mates.

Have communication.

If you need to bring in a road pastor or something to help that do that.

Because if you guys don't communicate, you don't get along.

There's no business.

There is no band, there's no business.

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah, you hear that a lot.

And, and, and I know you guys took a, a, we'll call it a hiatus, you

know, for a while and, and then reconvened and I think you, you stepped

out from about what, 2008 to 2012,

Michael Kalel Wittig: something like that, Lester, around the same time?

Jason K Powers: Yep.

Yep.

And so, so talk me through that.

Like, when bands take these long breaks.

You know, some, some you hear about it, some of them come back and they

come out screaming, you know, and and really hit the ground running.

Some come back, maybe halfheartedly, I guess, you hear about, and, and

take me through, like with you guys.

What was some of the motivating factors or what, what got you to.

Pick up the torch again, so to speak.

So,

Michael Kalel Wittig: so we had some few years apart.

We had a few years apart back in 2014 maybe a little bit before that, 2013,

2014, we just started talking again.

Mending relationships.

I would say nowadays we're in a better place friendship wise

than we were back, back then.

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Just 'cause we could communicate better, you

know, we have more life experience.

Yeah.

We got families now.

Mm-hmm.

But in 2015, so already a decade ago, we were.

Talking and started writing music again, and we wrote an album called

One Love Revolution, released it independently in 2015 and played one show.

And Lester actually couldn't be at that show.

He had something already.

It was, I think it was called Big Ticket Festival.

Up in Michigan and Lester had something, he, prior obligation couldn't do it.

He wanted to be there, but he couldn't do it.

But we played that one show together and it was awesome.

And you know, and we were wanting to do more, but things individually with family

and stuff just didn't work out with the jobs that some of us had and family

after that, it kind of just sied down.

We were still talking and hanging out and a, during a lot of that time, it was

like, okay, what are we gonna do next?

What are we gonna do next?

But we, we just couldn't, it, it wasn't the right timing yet.

It wasn't until about 2023, you know, 'cause some of us kept, Hey,

when are we gonna play a show?

When are we gonna write a song?

We were tapping each other.

We had a text chain for years, and it just, we couldn't get the timing right.

In 2023, we had those same conversations and it was finally things lined

up where, yes, let's play some shows next year, which was 2024.

That's just, it just happened actually, we got a call from a festival owner

promoter named Ken Ferguson out of Ohio.

They produce, it's called the live productions.

They do a live festival.

That's one of the festivals we played back in the early two thousands, you know.

First aside stage, eventually the main stage.

Great relationship with the live festival and a handful of the

festivals that ran back then.

But Ken would be trying to get us 23.

We're like, oh, sorry, we, we can't play yet.

He kept after us and finally when he put a offer in for 24 things lined up and

we said, okay, like Ken, let's do it.

And then because of that show, we booked a second show.

So we were going out to do two shows and then Rob was like, we gotta rehearse.

We haven't played in 10 years.

We haven't played with Lester in 15.

So we decided to, to book some rehearsal dates here in Tulsa where me and Rob live.

And then Rob was like, well, if we're gonna rehearse and be together, why

don't we do a Tulsa show as well?

So we booked a show in Tulsa at, at Battle Creek Church, where Rob's actually

a one of the pastors and kind of made it the first show of our coming back.

And that happened in June of last year.

Jason K Powers: Cool.

So from your chair and pillar, you know, what would you say,

what income streams, let's say, have mattered most over the years?

You know, touring guarantees and festivals, royalties, licensing side

projects, you know, from, from from the band income stream perspective.

What kinds of things have mattered the most?

Michael Kalel Wittig: So you gotta think, you gotta remember the things that have

shifted a lot from when we were full-time.

When we were full-time.

There's some years we did 200 shows a year.

We were on the road a lot.

There's time now.

That wasn't all the case, but there's some years we pushed hard.

So back then to now is completely different games back then.

Yeah, we were have, we had show honorariums that were getting at

the end, pretty awesome for us.

Where we were at as a rock band, they were getting pretty good in the good

range, but you gotta remember we had manager taking 15, whatever he took

off the top, your booking agent would take 15, 20% off the top, you know?

So there we were getting a small, what really helped us back then and

what put a lot of bands, what kept them fed back then was your merch.

You know, big merch sales back then.

It's a little bit different game now, but back then we'd do really

good on merch sales and that helped us out a lot nowadays,

surprisingly here, 20 years later.

What was a, a big surprise was digital royalties.

You know, but I get this email from this place saying, Hey, Sound

Exchange, I think is what it was.

Hey, we have some digital royalties here, sitting here for you, Michael.

It's been sitting here since 2000 something.

Sitting there for 15, 20 years and it's unclaimed.

So I was like, okay.

And I started talking to 'em.

I went, I, I, first, I almost thought it was a scam, but I went through the

hoops and it was a real deal and they had a very large, very large check

just sitting there in an account that has been sitting there for each of us.

But they were calling me for mine personally.

So that was huge.

Nowadays, you know, the digital streams is a whole nother realm of,

of income and, and we had a very large checks waiting for us because of that.

That's huge.

Nowadays, you know, we're, we're playing limited shows, so of course we have those

honorariums and we don't have a manager taking money off the top, you know?

Mm-hmm.

I'm, I'm just, we're doing it in-house, so that saves us a lot of money.

We do have a, a booking agent now, though.

I did booking last year and some of the shows this year.

All but one this year.

But there's some areas we wanna get to that.

I just don't have the, the time to, I don't wanna research anymore.

The shows we're doing now, people called us, so if I want us to

go play in California, I don't know a promoter in California.

So I did get a Christian agency called, faith Artist Agency.

She's been doing this for like 20 years to represent us on the booking

side, so she will be taking a cut of that, but we don't have a manager cut.

Now, merchandise has been a different experience for us this time around.

I'm not really sure why, but you know, we used to, to do

big numbers back in the day.

It's a different game now.

Our o our opening show in Tulsa was pretty big, was huge, but festival dates,

the numbers are a lot lower than they used to be, and we kind of heard it's

kind of like that across the board.

Just

Jason K Powers: saturated.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Yeah, I'm not really sure why.

It's just a different time, different game now, you know?

But, but yeah.

So this, managing your expenses is very important, you know?

So for us now.

We don't do this for a living anymore.

It's for fun now, and we're doing limited shows, so each show offer we

get, we have to first of all, make sure does the location, does the event, does

the money make sense for our families?

Mm-hmm.

Okay?

Mm-hmm.

If the number's right, it's not that we're greedy, it's just we know

what the flights are gonna cost.

You know, we know what our expenses are to get everybody there and to step away from

their family for two days to do a show.

You know, and once they make sense, you know, this is where Rob comes in.

I'm not a money guy.

I can negotiate honorariums and do that.

I don't like to deal with, with counting money and expenses.

The thing is, Rob's really good at it.

He has an administration role at, at church.

He, he's, he knows the business side in and out, so he's very good with putting

together the spreadsheets, itemizing our expenses, making sure taxes are paid.

So that kind of role in, in the band, and if you guys can't do it, you need

to have someone that can is vital.

So now when we're getting paid at the end of the thing, we know the

taxes are paid, all our crews paid, everything's right there and easy to see.

So everything makes sense.

Jason K Powers: Right.

Right.

So any money, habit advice you would put out there for the up and coming guys, that

starting to make some money, maybe not quite paycheck to paycheck, so to speak?

You know, maybe starting to drip in some money that they can

finally get ahead a little bit.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Yeah, I mean.

Stay, stay on top of your, your spreadsheets, you

know, itemize your expenses.

So when you do a show, you should know what all your

expenses are from that one show.

You gotta think merchandise.

Yeah, you made maybe five grand one night.

What did the merch cost?

What was the shipping cost?

What's the merch fee?

The venue that night?

You need to know all your expenses.

So you should have that spreadsheet already and plugged in.

And at the end of the night, just plug those numbers in so you know

what you actually made, what you owe.

And just how it looks.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

If you're not keeping track of that, there's a lot of guessing going on and

things could go the wrong way, you know?

So that's really important.

Another thing is just spend within your means.

We do have expenses as a band business, you have to pay crew, you, you have

merchandise fees, you have there, there's expenses that have to be paid.

Try to minimize 'em, you know, do stuff that makes sense.

You know, I would say on some tours back in the day, we're sitting on a bus and

we have the lighting guy that we hired.

We have this, the sound guy that we hired.

We have this guy we hired.

We got a merch guy that we hired.

I'm sitting there looking like we got five or six employees on here that we're all

paying plus all this crazy production.

You know, did we need to spend this much money?

Maybe we did, but we probably could have, you know, maybe spend a little

bit less on production, you know, back in the day and saved a little bit more.

So kind of just spend your money wisely and, and live within your

means for the betterment of your band.

Jason K Powers: You hear that quite a bit and, and when I talk to people and we sit

down and look through their, their budgets or, you know, whatever you're looking

through on income and expenses, right?

Is in the end, there's, I'd say more often than not, we get to the end of that

and they say, oh, that's the response.

Oh, you know, I was in this realization of, oh, that's where all my money went.

That's why I didn't have any left.

Really for myself, you

Michael Kalel Wittig: know?

Yeah.

For the fireproof tour, we had to have pyrotechnics.

Jason K Powers: Yes.

Michael Kalel Wittig: You know?

Yeah, that's right.

We had to have the pyrotechnics.

Now, how much did money did we spend on having a certified

pyro guy there for a whole tour?

The amount of all the stuff he blew up every night for the tour.

It was cool, but we probably could have saved tens of

thousands of dollars on that tour.

Not having it.

Maybe the other guys won't agree, but there's little things that we

probably could have done differently.

You know, and nowadays.

So for right now, a thing we're still trying to figure out is

the merch situation because it's a different situation.

So something that we're looking to do for our website moving forward is

to make less money on each product, but have a, a print on demand model.

Jason K Powers: Mm-hmm.

Michael Kalel Wittig: So up until now we had some new

designs sent to our web store.

There's boxes probably sitting in their warehouse.

Paid for merch is sitting there, you know, and we're like, man,

this kind of doesn't make sense.

So this is something we're gonna try now to see if it works better

financially is, and they're out there.

It's easy to do now is have a print on demand.

Someone orders the next large shirt, they print that shirt and mail it to 'em.

We make less, but there's not tens of thousands of dollars sitting on shelves

just waiting and collecting dust.

Jason K Powers: Yeah, sitting on inventory too long and, and then

Michael Kalel Wittig: we have a better idea now after doing a few shows nowadays.

We can make projections.

We know if X amount of people play, we're gonna make about

X amount per head on merch.

We've done enough shows now that we have that number.

So now when we order for shows, we're not over ordering, you know?

So sometimes we may have not enough merch 'cause we didn't do our projections right?

We're losing money on the table by not having enough, or we order way too much.

We got thousands sitting in boxes that already paid for.

So just doing projections.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig: And getting that dialed in.

So you're ordering the right amount of stuff is also a game changer.

I remember back in the day sometimes, yeah, we would way, way over order.

We had a storage unit that just was filled at times with $50,000

of merch just sitting in there.

Mm-hmm.

We eventually sold it, of course, but I mean, we could have handled that

better, probably our, our projections and our inventory and probably been

a little bit better financially if we would've done that, right?

Jason K Powers: Okay.

So albums like fireproof the reckoning, you know, they still have a, a tail.

I would, I would say, so what, what should artist know about building songs

and records that keep working long after release, if that makes sense.

Michael Kalel Wittig: you know, that's a hard one because as a band

member and as a band, you know, we hear other bands and the great

songs they write, and it's hard for.

Musicians like us or any musician, we'll hear that other band like, man,

I wish we played a song like that.

You know?

'cause we're still fans of music and we hear other bands, our

friends or bands we don't know, and we're like, man, they're good.

Why can't we do stuff like that?

So, you know, we really just wrote what was on our heart and what we felt.

You know, Noah was just a genius with his riffs and Rob handled.

All the lyrics and melodies and mm-hmm.

We just wrote what was on Our Heart Man, and, and at the time when we

wrote the stuff, we weren't like, Hey, this is gonna be a timeless song.

It's just a song that we had fun writing and thought was gonna do great.

The only exceptions were when we wrote Fireproof, there's three exceptions.

When we wrote Fireproof, I remember some of our band members saying, Hey, this is

gonna be a hit if this song's not a hit, I don't know what to do on fireproof.

I remember that.

I remember when we were on tour, I think we were in Memphis and Noah came up with

the frontline riff and then Lester joined in and we were jamming the Frontline riff.

It wasn't a song yet.

I remember everybody's head in the venue turning other bands

that were touring with us.

They're like, what is that?

That is good.

We had, we had an inkling that that was gonna turn into something awesome.

And the third time I knew we wrote a timeless song was bring Me Down.

We were in the studio, we recorded the music for Bring Me Down,

which we just thought was awesome.

But we didn't know what Rob was gonna do.

He didn't have his stuff wrote yet, and we had a show.

So the rest of us left to go do the show travel there on the bus.

Rob stayed in the studio to record these vocals that we had not heard

nothing of because he didn't have 'em.

It wasn't that he was holding 'em from us, we didn't have nothing wrote Uhhuh.

And he flew in and met us at the bus and he, and he had a

CD and he said, this is it.

We went to the back of the bus.

He put that CD in and we heard, bring me down with the vocals for the first time.

You can't bring, we were like, oh my gosh.

This is,

Jason K Powers: yeah,

Michael Kalel Wittig: this is, this is amazing.

We knew it was gonna be a hit.

And that song, what turned out to be a big hit, you know.

Mm-hmm.

The other songs were just fun and, you know, writing what Was On the Heart.

Jason K Powers: I remember so many of these songs coming

out and just the same thing.

Right.

It was as a fan reaction going.

Wow.

You know?

That's so cool.

And I think that's, like you said, you get that feeling early on.

You're like, this one, this is gonna be a big one.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Yeah.

Jason K Powers: Is that roll

Michael Kalel Wittig: out?

And we played just in Dallas just a couple nights ago.

I know this won't come out for a while after we're talking, but we

just played a couple nights ago.

Our what show?

Third show this year we played New York, we played Germany.

We just played the Dallas House of Blues.

You know, frontline goes on.

Spring me down.

People just went nuts.

Yep.

They went nuts

Jason K Powers: into it.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Still has the same effects, you know,

which is, was was a lot of fun.

Jason K Powers: That's great.

That's great.

Alright, well speaking of big things, you guys have a big thing

coming up here pretty soon, right?

Tell

Michael Kalel Wittig: me about it.

Yes sir. So when we came back last year we had the idea of.

Hey, let's film a documentary.

And actually the idea was my son, my oldest son, his name

is Kaden, he is 21 years old.

He's a film student and he's already an award-winning filmmaker.

You know, he writes and directs short films.

He's done a previous documentary.

He goes to film festivals, he's won film festivals, he's been on big movie sets.

He does a lot of big stuff for a 21-year-old, very talented.

And he came to me last year and he actually had the idea for a long

time, but when he knew we were coming together, he goes, dad,

let's, let's make a documentary.

And I said, okay, this is gonna be all you, as far as like, I meant,

we're not gonna look over your shoulder and tell you what to do.

This is your project.

You film it and tell the story that you think you want to tell.

I had that much faith in him because I knew his ability, I knew how smart he

is and how good he is at what he does.

So he, he.

Filmed our rehearsals, which was two days, two days of rehearsals, band

interviews, the full Tulsa show.

He flew to Ohio and filmed two shows with us.

He collected stuff from the early days, like scanned photos from 1999, found VHS

tapes and old DVDs and, and digitized them all, and, and had everything,

everything he could get his hands on.

And he made this documentary and we hadn't seen a peep of it.

Not a single minute of it until a couple nights ago we had a, a premier screening

at the Dallas House of Blues packed house.

And, and he played it and it turned out amazing.

So we were releasing this documentary, it's not released yet.

We're planning to release it this coming December, about the

time this podcast probably drops.

It's called Pillar Beyond the Frontline.

And what I'll say about it is, it's, it's not just a Rockumentary.

Yes.

It talks about how Pillar started.

How we, how we grew.

It talks about how we disbanded and then talks about how we came back together.

But, but more than that, it talks about our heart and the effects that Pillar had

on people and what we meant to people.

You know?

So I, I'll just say when I watch it a couple nights ago for the first time,

just about everyone in the house, there's times where we got teary eyed.

It's very emotional.

Yeah.

It's, it's very has a lot of heart to it and it's very

emotional and I'm so excited for.

Our fans and anybody that that liked Pillar to, to see this, to see this, when

it drops, it's, it's 55 minute runtime and it, it's just the, it was a joy to watch.

my son did an amazing job on it.

Jason K Powers: That's great.

Well, I, I, for one, I'm excited to see it and I know it'll be very

nostalgic for a lot of people.

Right.

I'm sure you guys watching it for the first time even.

Yeah, since you didn't really know kind of how it was gonna get laid out,

Michael Kalel Wittig: he had stuff on there.

I, I turned to him while we were watching it.

Where did you get that footage?

Yeah, there's footage on there that I hadn't seen, or maybe

it's just been so long, I forgot.

But there's stuff on there that I hadn't even seen before from the early days.

So when this comes out.

Pillar music.com will be the hub where you wanna go for information.

We are gonna release physical copies on DVD and Blu-ray that will be autographed

along with a new poster or new shirt.

And then we'll have streaming options as well where it can be

rented or streamed off our website.

So all, I don't know the the particulars yet, we're still figuring that out.

Jason K Powers: Yep.

Michael Kalel Wittig: But they will all be on pillarmusic.com Right

now the plan is to release it in early December for the holidays.

Jason K Powers: Awesome, awesome, awesome.

I know everyone's gonna be excited about that.

Alright.

Every show we wrap up with what we call Final Riffs, if it's kind of

our lightning round for listeners.

Short questions, quick answers, you know, snapshots really just to take us home.

So Michael, I'm gonna fire off a handful.

First thing that comes to mind doesn't have to be one word answers,

but you know, you'll get the idea.

Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig: I'm ready.

It sounds awesome,

Jason K Powers: fun.

All right.

When specifically did you get your first bass?

You owned

Michael Kalel Wittig: my first base.

It was high school.

I played guitar first and my school jazz band needed a jazz player.

And I was friends with the current jazz players that graduated.

And I, I think that'd be cool.

So I bought my first base.

It was a, a padula green padula.

And I learned so I could play in the jazz band at high school.

Jason K Powers: How fun.

One pillar song you never get tired of playing.

Can't say all of them.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Underneath It All.

Jason K Powers: Underneath it all.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Underneath it all is a heavy one of our heavy songs.

It just completely rocks live.

My neck still hurts.

Played it two nights ago and my neck hurts really, really bad today.

Jason K Powers: That's funny.

Alright, most underrated venue, maybe.

Most underrated venue you love.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Man, that's a hard one because all those

venues we played were so long ago.

I can't remember most of them.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Yeah,

Michael Kalel Wittig: I would.

You

Jason K Powers: have like

Michael Kalel Wittig: I'll go old school.

I'll go old school.

For our old school fans, it's one that pops to my mind.

It may not be the venue to answer this, but it's one of 'em for sure.

It's called the New Earth Coffee House in Kansas City.

I don't even know if it's there anymore.

It may not be there anymore, but back in the early two thousands it was a hotspot

for bands that came through in Kansas City, and I remember having some amazing

shows at the New Earth Coffee House.

Jason K Powers: What's the loudest show you've ever been part of?

Michael Kalel Wittig: Man, we played this thing early on

called the Luis Palau Festival.

Luis Palau was an evangelist.

I think he passed away now, but evangelist.

And he put us on one of his big events in Southern California.

It was on the beach outside.

Going down the beach, down the beach, and I couldn't see the end of people.

There was a hundred thousand people there

Jason K Powers: really

Michael Kalel Wittig: with jumbotrons spaced football fields down.

So the a hundred thousand people down the beach could see it.

It's the biggest crowd I'd ever seen and ever played in front of next to

that parachute festival in New Zealand.

Those people went absolutely insane.

I remember they had.

In preparation for the madness, they had ambulances already on hand.

Jason K Powers: Oh, wow.

Michael Kalel Wittig: For the people from the mosh pit and crowd surfing.

It was insane.

Jason K Powers: Any single funny story that sticks out for you on

tour that was just kind of a, oh my gosh, I'll never forget that.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Um, gosh.

There's a few of them that pop to mind that I can't talk about.

Not that they're like dirty or crazy, they're just, uh, I don't

wanna hurt anyone's feelings.

The, the good ones I can't talk about.

Jason K Powers: Those are the good ones, right?

All right.

Any in particular touring story

Michael Kalel Wittig: that you I, I got one.

I got one.

I got one.

I got a safe one I could talk about.

I can't remember where this was, but I remember a promoter got us a limo.

To take us to the airport which we thought was cool.

We don't ask for that.

It was definitely a treat for us.

We thought it was the coolest thing.

We get to the airport, we get out of this limo, then there's this like little cruddy

car in front of us and this other guys get out of it and we're getting out of a limo.

Those other guys getting outta the little car with Switchfoot.

And

Jason K Powers: Oh really?

Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Who, who we're friends with and, no, and they're

getting out, you know, getting going home and Pillar walks out of this limo.

I always thought that was funny.

'cause like we looked up to them, you know, they were huge.

Mm-hmm.

Our buddy Switchfoot and we're getting outta the limo.

I thought that was, that was a good one.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

They're looking at you sideways going, Hey.

Michael Kalel Wittig: We had the opportunity to tour with them throughout

Australia for two weeks, years back, and it was just an awesome experience

because they're the coolest guys and they're doing just great music,

and they're so friendly and humble.

And that was one of our, one of our favorite little runs with the,

the Australian tour with them.

Jason K Powers: That's fun.

That's fun.

All right.

Maybe one road habit that costs little but pays big, so to speak

while you were on the road.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Man going to the gym.

You know, we were kind of known as the gym band there for a while in our first bus.

We had so many weights under the bus on one side that the bus tilted

permanently and we would pull it out at Walmart parking lots or behind

festivals and all of us would work out.

Me and Lester hardcore.

But no one Rob jumped in a lot.

You know, we just all like to, to be fit.

It helped us with our stage shows and.

Something we enjoyed, you know, so, and once we got on tour and stopped

carrying our weights underneath, you know, our first stop, we'd get there.

Me and Lester would wake up, Hey, where's the gym at?

Our tour manager would have it ready for us, tell us where to go.

We'd either walk there or get a cab and go to the gym and work out.

Just kind of keeps you healthy, we helps you put on better shows,

you know, if you're in shape.

Jason K Powers: Sure, sure.

That's fun.

All right.

Single most impactful song.

That you've been a part of putting together?

Michael Kalel Wittig: There is a couple and, and I don't know, for me,

it's not what I think's impactful.

It's hearing from the fans songs that help them.

Mm-hmm.

I know the song further from myself.

I've had several individuals very recently even talking about how that song saved

their life, where they were mm-hmm.

Ready to commit suicide like it was happening right then.

And then the song came on and they heard the song and it changed their mind.

Recently we just heard that story, and I've heard that before too.

That song has literally saved lives.

I've heard our song, smiling Down has had a profound effect on people that's lost,

loved ones, family members or friends.

So it's the slower songs.

And I'm sure there's a lot of other songs that have, there's other

stories, but I know those two songs I've heard a lot of fan stories from.

Mm-hmm.

And some of those stories are, are mentioned in our shared,

in our documentary coming out.

Jason K Powers: That's great.

I love stories like that.

I think really get to the heart of music.

I think it really, I love the quote, Hans Christian Anderson, right?

He said, "Where words fail, music speaks." and, and for me, right?

That's why music always been a big part of my life.

Right.

You just don't have words.

You hear a song, you're like, yes, that's exactly how I would say it, you know?

Michael Kalel Wittig: Yeah.

Music powerful.

Music is very powerful, you know?

And while we're imperfect men, you know, God used us to write some songs that are.

Speak to people.

You know, despite our mistakes and who we are as people, God has been

able to use the music that we produce to, to have a profound effect.

And just at this age in our coming back, we just really appreciate it now, we

appreciate what we've been able to do.

We appreciate the impact we've had on people and we appreciate the

fans that that just support us.

Share those stories with us.

It just, it's, it was meaningful back then.

It's more meaningful now though, now that it's not a job anymore.

It's something that we just do for fun and we're, we get, we get to do it now.

It's a privilege for us and it's just so meaningful to us.

Jason K Powers: Yeah.

Yeah.

That's great, Michael.

Well, thanks for making the time and for sharing so much with us today.

I know there's a lot of artists listening that, that will learn

something, you know, and, and that's why we do this show is just.

Having so many different perspectives and ideas from so many different people.

You know, it's just people can listen and watch and, and really just take

some things home each and every episode.

And I know there was some stuff today that would do that for you.

So, yeah, thank you for being on the show.

We will drop links in the show notes for you listeners, and you could

follow along if today's conversation helped you think differently about

the business side of your music.

Head on over to my website at 1024wealth.com/music and grab a

free ebook called A Musician's Guide to Infinite Banking.

Imagine funding the next project while your savings keeps compounding when

you are ready to talk about how a money system can work for you and your world.

Let's talk.

Let's help you out and see what we can figure out for you.

So subscribe on your favorite podcast app.

Share this with one musician who needs it, and I will send you next time.

Thank you so much, Jason, Michael.

Thank you.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Thank you for having me.

You can check Pillar on pillarmusic.com.

Yes.

My personal social socials are, @wittigworks for Instagram and everything

else and Jason can maybe drop that link.

It's something for you guys, but @wittigworks.

You can reach out to me personally if you have any questions or wanna

chat about anything that we talked about today on the podcast as well.

Awesome.

Jason K Powers: Do it.

We'll drop all these links in the description and you guys

will be able to find everything.

Pillar Music.

I can't wait for this documentary to come out.

And we'll check it out.

So subscribe in your favorite apps and share with the musician who needs to hear

this, and I will see you guys next time.

Until then, keep your money working and your music moving.