Would you let someone who is unqualified perform surgery on you? 

Of course not. 

Similarly, building a home without the proper credentials can be daunting and lead to catastrophic failures. However, when done correctly, it is a viable option for many. The key here is understanding the role and embracing the learning curve.

The owner-builder path is not for the faint-hearted, but for those who have the right skills or are ready to learn, it can be a rewarding adventure.

In this episode we discuss the areas you need to be across as an owner builder to ensure a positive building experience.

LINKS:

Thanks to Hip Vs Hype for having us

Connect with us on Instagram:  @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:   www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website:  www.carlandconstructions.com/

We're gonna touch on a very touchy subject today.

Or it's a touchy, or is it, uh, an educational, it's a divided topic, so

you're gonna have a lot of builders probably voicing frustration at the issue.

Yeah.

I think you have a lot of doing today is agreeing with

the frustration of the issue.

But you know, before we start, can I ask you something?

Yeah.

Would you let someone who's not a trained surgeon perform surgery on you?

No.

Cool.

Alright, carry on.

Would you let a trained surging, uh, would you let someone who's not a

trained surgeon have other people who are learning to do this surgery on you?

Well, it's different because it happens.

Yeah.

And there's really no different to this topic.

Sure.

Because we're talking about owner builders and if you are an owner builder and you

have people who are qualified licensed trades carrying out the, the job.

Aren't they qualified?

Yep.

Yeah, I agree.

Whether that happens or not, it's not.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Today we're gonna be talking about own builders.

Now, I personally feel there's a space for owner builders.

I think there are a lot of people out there who are more than

capable of building a house.

Engineers, architects, architects, some random people who are just go

four balls deep in understanding, building, construction, employing

the right people, you know?

I think that anyone who's good at project management and understands sequencing

Yeah, really well can be a owner builder.

Yeah, I totally agree.

I think accountants shouldn't be because accountants are

all about money and tie asses.

Can I say that?

You can.

Most accountants are very, yeah, it's no.

So we're gonna get an accountant on, we're gonna go for both sides.

So I think we should, maybe we start with the why people should

own a build and I think the reason why people that we had and that

own a builders should be out there.

'cause everyone has the right to be able to build their own house.

Simple.

I think so.

And let's be fair, I would say that most people that are listening to this

podcast have watched Grand Designs.

Yeah.

And Kevin McLeod, he fucking loves owner builders.

And the reason why is because shit goes wrong.

I can tell you that from some very firsthand experience at the moment, that

the reason why that they go after these.

They, the projects they take on are owner builders because they're engaging because

there's so much more drama on the project.

Have a look at the block.

They're people who dunno building, they're coming into building,

whether they're a car, let's just say, oh, they're a builder.

No, they're car condu who maybe done a user experience.

They don't know.

Sequencing and building and costume.

And that creates drama because they don't know what they're doing.

And look, I guess I, I want to go on the record 'cause we are gonna talk about.

Uh, owner builder as a positive thing.

'cause I think it is a positive thing and you know, there's a bit tongue

in cheek 'cause obviously we're builders and you know, we, well I know

personally for my business, I dunno if it's the same for you Matt, but we

don't take on owner builder projects.

However, we have in the past I've had some really successful owner builder projects.

But I think, you know, that particular example is, you know, back then when I did

it, I don't know if I was fully licensed.

It's a hard space to navigate because there's so much that happens in

our industry that again, we sport.

Think about it all the time.

You don't know what you don't know.

It's like us jumping into another industry, just being like, we're

gonna start running this project.

We've got no idea what we're doing.

Let me ask you this.

How many homes have you built, estimate?

Ah, 20.

20. Yeah, me too.

Probably 20, 20, 25.

Over the last however many years, probably a hundreds of projects that I've done.

Every single time that I complete a project, I learn something.

Yeah.

And I guarantee not every single project that I've done has been perfect.

There's always things, what did you say the other day?

You said your worst project was your last project, yet I say that to every client.

Yeah.

We meet someone.

Our last, our worst project is our last project we just completed.

And the last project, the worst project we build now will be your

project because we'll improve on it.

Yep, yep.

And it's not to say that the project's gonna be bad.

No.

It's just, but it's all about experience.

So, you know, I feel.

Owner builders don't have the benefit of all those times that you've

made mistakes and learned from it.

However, there's still a place for owner builders, in my opinion.

Yep.

I think building surveyors need to be so much harder on making sure they

use license trades for those projects.

I also think builders should have to use license trades for projects too, to

make sure that then there's an, there's a trail of insurance and if people

know what they're doing, if you think about someone being an own builder,

if they're gonna live in the home indefinitely, they're gonna live in it

for 5, 10, 15, 20 years, I feel there's less risk involved in that than there

is if someone's building for profit.

That's a whole different conversation.

'cause you'll get into that with own insurances and the liability industry.

Because if an owner builder is building for profit, then where does the

liability land with the insurance?

Because obviously every project needs to have insurance.

They the builder they have.

Exactly.

And we'll jump into that now.

If you're owner, owner, builder, you hold the same insurance

as we have as a builder.

You have to sign off on this for 10 years.

Yeah.

If something goes wrong in nine years, you are legally liable to fix it.

And the thing is, we have insurances to back us up and help us.

You don't.

And experience, and experience you don't you, you, you'll most likely

be taking a vika and you'll most likely get sued to fix a problem.

Do we not just run into a builder?

Go into this right now.

I, you know what?

That's actually quite timely.

Uh, we just went and grabbed a coffee before and we won't

say who the builder is.

No, I won't say who the builder is, but yeah, literally they're working

through a project at the moment where there wasn't only builder and there is

corners that have been cut and the buyer of that project is now dealing with the

fallout of things not being done right.

You know, from what we're hearing from this builder who was looking at this

project, it seems it was sequencing.

Yeah.

And, and this is what I'm saying, I feel a really good project

manager could be a good builder.

Yeah.

If they understand the sequencing of things.

Yeah.

And also I think it's also going down to the cheapest quote isn't the best.

And that's with everything.

And I think a lot of the, the, I've got distinctly my brain, one own ability work.

If when we just started, they went for the cheapest of everything they could find.

They spent the money on us.

And then they're like, they practically were just whatever's

the cheapest they could find.

And Yep.

And there were so many issues.

We spent so much time trying to rectify all their issues because they, they found

a plasterer that was 10th of the price, but installed all the corners upside down

in different ways, and, and then there's issues now the projects delayed so long.

So I think that if you're looking to be an owner builder.

One, can you manage it with your own job?

That's probably one.

Like how are you gonna squeeze this in?

Because we spend.

20 hours on each project per week ourselves as the builder.

Yeah.

Let me ask you this, do you have a dedicated supervisor on your project?

A hundred percent.

Yep.

That we communicate with daily.

And then they have our carpentry team, that's our in-house that work

with them and they manage that too.

So here's probably a good bit of advice for Anna Builders if

you are gonna go down that path.

I would look at engaging a licensed carpenter.

Yep.

To run your project on site and pay them a project management

thing and pay them a project.

Manage you six to maybe 8% of the build cost.

And you know, I just wanna reinforce or reiterate, I. The license part of it.

Because that even as a, even as an owner builder, you need to use licensed trades.

Those licensed trades are gonna have insurance policy for their work.

So if you engage a and there's domestic building insurance,

they have to over $16,000.

Legally.

Legally, they have to take it out.

So as an owner builder, I, my recommendation for you to hire a

look at the end of the day, everyone has to get their start somewhere.

Yeah.

And I got my start doing owner builder projects and I feel

that now in this current market.

For builders to get that experience.

They need to do and builder things, but they need to make sure that,

you know, owners need to understand there's different levels of insurance.

Yeah, unlimited.

You're unlimited.

Then there's DBM and then DBU.

Ah.

There's no DBM anymore.

Anymore.

Is it?

Oh, just DB CI think they've removed.

I think other states have a project license, project manager license.

I It's limited?

Yeah, I think so.

Okay.

So the a, a limited license is limited to certain things, whether that's

footings, framing, card entry, onry.

Yep.

Yeah, I think every trade should, and maybe this off topic, I think we should

be licensing all trades across the board.

Yeah.

Includes from painters to a coker.

I think that that will start to treat our industry as professionals, so

when these own builders do go to 'em.

They're licenses even for us.

Yeah.

So if we use a licensed trade and something goes wrong, there is a

trail that we can follow ourselves as builders and look for those builders

who use the same trades all the time.

I kind of feel like you have an unofficial insurance policy with them because

you are, you've got that rapport, you've got that, um, you know, the,

the reputation that this, that this trades, you know, brings with them.

And it probably, you know, you could probably talk to this

point with owner builders.

As a builder, we have these trades.

There's a level of respect and there's a level of understanding

how they're gonna do things.

I've literally just written down, it's like we know what we're gonna get out

of them and we notice there's a problem.

They're gonna come.

We also know that they'll come on the day.

They say they come as an owner builder, if you're using a trade.

They don't know anything to you.

You're a one-off project that you're never gonna see again.

Yeah.

So you are the last priority in the line and most likely, I know

that trades will charge you more if it's known to build a work.

Well, there's, there's built, there's built in contingencies.

Yep.

When, when trades are, you know, quoting directly to clients.

And, and I know we get a much better price for the, we do.

And again, I don't want to use this as a, I guess, leverage

to say, don't go on a builder.

'cause I feel that.

You should, as you said before, have a right to be able to build your own home.

But on the flip side, if you want something done right,

use the right professionals.

And generally that's why we're builders because we know what's going on.

Yeah, I'm me.

I'm a shit carpenter.

I'm a good builder.

I go good carpenters around me.

If you want to build your house and you're, I don't a marketing

professional and I'm gonna start running my own project.

You know nothing about building, you're probably most likely

gonna ask what is a stud?

What is a no?

And now you've gotta go do that.

I think it's a 10 hour course now, which in honestly, what can you

learn in 10 hours than anything?

Like we set these cameras up to film this podcast, and I've spent more than 10

hours trying to work out how to use them.

Well, just on that sort of own builders generally having, uh, a day job.

You can't run a project between the hours of seven till nine.

And five until 10 at nighttime.

TRA is finished on site at four.

You might be able to catch 'em in the morning, but you know, don't expect to

then get in contact with your trades or pay invoices or anything like that

outside of those hours because it's, you know, you, you're not dealing in the set

business hours of that particular trade.

And you need to be respectful to those trades.

Like they have a home life, they have work life outside of work.

They've most likely been up since five 30 in the morning, onsite at

7:00 AM done there at 8, 9, 10 hours.

That's when you are finishing.

You can't then be like, Hey, can you take my call at 9:00 PM at night?

Like I'd tell you like, go away.

This isn't my time.

Yep.

You've had all day to get onto me.

Yeah.

As that owner builder, you need to now working within the limitations

of the trades that you have, have you got any suggestions of what should be

mandatory if people are gonna embark on their own owner builder journey?

Yeah, so if you're gonna own, be an owner builder.

The first thing you need to do is make sure you're using licensed

trades whilst that's the law, then the reality is no one does that.

So is anyone checking that?

Well, this is an issue like the VBA are a scam, let's be honest.

They're about to be called the Building and Plumbing Commission after they got

done for corruption a few years ago.

And when the Plumbing and Building Commission, they've just,

they've practically rebranded back to where they were again.

And it's just this whole unknown at the moment.

Um, I think that we need to start holding building surveys

accountable for these things.

And hopefully that is a, that's a positive by the way, like the

good building today are awesome.

Yep.

I can't speak for the ones we've worked with in the past.

Like some of them haven't been the greatest, but the one in particular,

which is David from Permitt approvals Plus that we work with

all the time they are on the ball.

So one is probably actually engage, a really good building

surveyor that he's going to make.

He is gonna hold you accountable at the end.

I actually think that building surveyors, I think should have much

more like their, their approach to an owner builder should be different.

To an approach to a builder, they are, they, they charge more.

The reality is because they're dealing with people that don't, the the risk

of coming out and not knowing when the right inspection stages are.

So you gotta remember that you are also the builder in this case.

So if you miss a, if you miss an inspection point or you go too

far, you legally can be like held, look like liable for these things.

And if you're fine, just you're talking about no, just legally,

if like we have mandatory stage inspections, imagine if we miss one.

So we, the VBA can go, Hey, we're gonna take you to court and you're

gonna be fined $20,000 because you've breached this code in ai.

Say, yeah, you have the same, from my understanding, the

same responsibility as us.

You are opening yourself up to potential issues.

We have insurance if things go wrong that might be able to kick you and help us.

You don't, you lose money.

You're gonna, your asset's gonna get attacked by whoever.

I think that's, so money's hire a really good building, so that

is gonna hold you accountable.

I think the second one is you're then gonna use licensed trades,

so that's, that makes sense.

Um, three is having, don't be a tight ass and go get an awesome architect to

work with you to get through the project.

Yeah.

You've got very clear detailing and plans.

And that's also the same from a builder.

As a, as a, even if you're engaging in builder hire, a very good building design.

I hired a very good building of art that's gonna hold your builder accountable.

That's just not gonna check boxes.

Also have a good team.

A good team means everything.

That's super.

I've just written down here, um, these actually apply to

builders too, by the way.

I'm just gonna say that a hundred percent.

I've just written down pre-construction, like I feel with an owner builder.

The documentation that you are building off Yeah.

Is, I would say much more important to get right and bulletproof.

Than if you didn't have good, or sorry, if you were a builder.

Totally.

Because you literally want to go here, carpenter.

Yeah.

This is exactly what you are building and if there's anything

in these documents that you don't understand, come back to me.

What I would also say that the trades that you are using in your projects need to

come along in that ECI process with you.

Yeah.

So everybody's on the same page.

Because this is what we do as builders in pre-construction before and you need

to be involved in those conversations.

Hunter, you are.

You are the builder.

And again, it goes back to what we said is it needs to be normal work hours.

So Yep.

You need to either reduce your normal work hours, time to fit in with everyone

else because they're not gonna fit in with you because it suits you at 9:10 PM to

have your meeting 'cause you've got work.

Do you think it also goes back to that point I was making

before about having a supervisor?

Yeah, it does.

But you need, so then if you're gonna pay a supervisor, just pay the

builder and then you're de-risking from an owner builder point.

Yeah.

Okay.

So now you're, now you're engaging someone who's not licensed as a project

manager, something goes wrong, you can't hold a Mac account, you are the builder.

Maybe.

Maybe.

But like, I guess what I was saying before about supervision, so we obviously

have a fee in our building contract Well in, in our workings for a supervisor.

Yeah.

I think that you, you can pay that to someone and still avoid the

markup across everything else.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I still think you could do it as an owner builder and

still have a, like a two I see on site, but pay them for that work.

So they might be the carpenter and, and for me it makes them the most

logical sense to have that person as a carpenter because they're there, there

for such a. Huge part of the project.

And they're usually across multiple trades in the project too.

Correct?

Yeah.

So they've been there from the set out to the Exactly.

They're there to set out and fit.

Exactly.

Fix.

Yep.

So I think they're the, the few first few things that I, the other one is you

need to make sure that you understand insurances and you need to understand

how you're covered because we have public, so what insurance do we have?

We have contract work insurance, we have public liability, probably

some form of a management insurance.

We have our work color.

We have.

Um, tool insurance.

Indemnity.

Indemnity.

Yeah.

You are now the builder.

You don't hold any of them.

Yeah.

So what happens if you damage something on the street?

Are you liable?

Yeah, that's a good point actually.

I mean, or you are checking that all the trades have it and that is so,

and, and that's like we try, but there is so hard to get across everyone.

Look, we, we try and get.

We've got it in our hazard code, uh, when stuff's due.

Yeah.

And we try and get it.

Is it up to date?

A hundred percent.

Probably not.

But do we try and do it?

Yes.

It's always the one trade that's a one-off is the hardest

one to get to give it to you.

But I'll put this to is also the most important one to get.

Well, I'll put this to, to, to an owner builder.

Potential owner builder.

If it's difficult for us as the builder who do this as a day job, to keep

that stuff up to date, that have staff to do it too, have staff to do it.

Like that is a challenging thing for someone who's sort of juggling two things.

Yeah.

So I mean, I would like to, you know, try and be positive around

this and, and, you know, encourage people that they can do it.

I think another important one is do not be on the tools.

If you're a carpenter running an own builder project as you are, like

your house is, it's you and you are a carpenter, totally different conversation.

Makes sense.

I'm talking about, let's, let's just use the term accountant.

I'm an accountant.

I'm gonna jump on the tools and do some framing and stuff.

Do not touch tools.

You will get it wrong.

You, you are most likely gonna create issues.

You dunno what you're doing and by the time you go buy all the tools and

equipment to do it, yeah, you might like tinkering around in the, in the factory

at home or little shed and doing some woodwork doesn't mean you're no building.

I think it is okay for someone wanting to that and learning to do that if they

are open and honest with all the other trades that that's happening and that it's

gonna take as long as it takes and they're gonna have to fix some of your stuff.

Ups.

And you're communicating when things are going to be finished

or not gonna be finished.

Like again, I encourage every, anyone and everyone to build their own home.

'cause I think it's, um, an amazing thing to kind of step back and say,

you've done this for your family, but you know, it can't be done after hours.

It has to be done in regular business hours that are predictable for

all the other people and all the other pieces that fit around it.

Yeah.

I, I, I think that like, we shouldn't stop people hanging

in a door or doing something.

I think we do need limitations on anything structural.

Like I, I personally think Yep, that an owner builder should not be able

to do framing or should not be able to do concreting or shouldn't unless

they're licensed in that trade.

Yeah, because that's where everything goes wrong.

Or waterproofing insulation.

Go for it.

Go for it.

Painting.

Go for it.

Go for it.

Floating floors.

Not saying that these people aren't skilled at what they're

doing, but like, yeah, yeah.

These are, these are, these are things cosmetic things because Yeah.

Floating floors.

Go for it.

Yeah.

Tiling.

Stay well away from it.

Don't think that you can til if you wanna, til your splash back.

Go for it.

Yeah, it's not an easy thing.

I would, I would guarantee that a waterproofer who's gonna give you a

waterproofing certificate is not going to warranty their work if you are

then putting tiles over the top of it.

Yep.

You're most likely gonna scrape it and be like, well we Lee

left you, you would not know.

And look, our waterproofer is also our tiler.

Same.

So they're managing the entire thing.

Yeah.

If we want to improve our industry, we need more.

Inspection points, and I would say owner builders more than anything.

Yeah.

It should also apply to builders.

Now, inspection points that we need to increase in that industry for

me are our foundations is correct?

Yeah.

Our frame is correct.

The problem at the moment is you don't see anyone until the end of construction.

Yeah.

Which is so stupid.

So we should be introducing inspection points on 100% pre plaster to

make sure everything is correct.

Let's say wrap.

Wrap and insulation.

Yep.

A performance one, which should be done.

It might not need to be done by a building survey, but it

needs to be done by someone.

I think then we also need a waterproofing one because that is the most common

issue we have in any claim of insurance claim water kills buildings.

Yep.

Water kills building.

Yes.

So.

If we get them all right, we didn't have a final, and that is then enough

inspection points to have check boxes along the way, and that is how we're gonna

quickly improve our, our industry now.

Yeah.

It's gonna cost a little bit more, but I'll tell you what, it's gonna save a

lot of buildings and a lot of problems.

A hundred percent.

If you think about the claims that are in, there's VCA or

wherever, only 5% water issues.

I think it's, I would say that it's, yeah.

Yeah.

I think that was a, it was literally such a high amount, like every, I think.

B balconies and bathrooms.

It's not the, it's not the products doing the wrong job.

It's the person, I tell you what balconies, the waterproof balconies

with habitable rooms underneath.

I am doing one in the moment and I'm, I don't like them.

I saw one, uh, I had two builders.

Email or send me a, tag me into Instagram.

The other day on the architect showing how cool their balcony was.

And what they had done is they walked out the upstairs door, there was a

small little landing, and then there was another step and another step up.

Um, so the balcony was higher than the inside of the building.

And one of these builder that sent it to me had actually quoted it

and flagged that this was an issue.

And the architect was like, Hey, it's gonna be fine, don't worry.

And then they walked away from it.

Oh my God.

And what I'm getting at is we need multiple inspections because.

No waterproofing company will come out and go, I'm insuring that.

Yeah, no, totally.

So, so I think what we, if we can increase our stages across the border,

and this applies to builders, I would suggest that if you're an owner builder,

not only should you have the building inspector I inspecting, you should also

have to have an independent company that come out and sign off on it.

An independent company is probably a good idea because you can't be

there for all the inspections.

Like, how do you know the slabs?

Correct.

You don't even know what you're looking at.

Well, you know what, so, so what you are saying is you've got your,

your building surveyor who's doing the, um, statutory um, inspections.

Yep.

And then you are saying as an owner builder, you need to engage an

independent building inspector Yeah.

To inspect every stage.

And it should be, and it shouldn't be one of those inspectors that come out

and shit count industry on social media.

It's, it's on TikTok.

Yeah.

It's a, it's a specific.

It's, it's practically having another building survey also coming, looking over.

So we, we've actually someone that can sign off on it.

Legally, we've encouraged our, a couple of our clients to engage these people and

like we we're happy to have 'em on site.

I know.

Problem.

Because we're all about learning, right?

I, these guys and girls are so thorough with their reports.

Yeah.

Like I'm talking dozens of pages of the littlest things.

Yep.

And I think that that's one powerful as a builder for you to learn

and the team for you to learn.

But as an owner builder, you are getting that extra layer of ASU insurance or assu

assurance that what you're doing is right.

Let's get to the end of that.

Owner builders like whilst we, they all, they can't, they can

work, they also can't work.

I think we need that.

We're, we're both encouraging people to maybe have a go at it,

but you gotta understand there's limitations around it as well.

And especially, I would a hundred percent understand the legal

implications for you in the future.

And I'd speak to a constructional lawyer about what responsibilities

you have and what requirements you have to come fix the issues.

And you know what it is about what you, you don't dunno what you don't know.

So, you know, I just think as an honorability, you just need to do

your research a little bit more.

Understand what your legal requirements are.

Yeah.

Or the fact that you are tied to that building for 10 years.

Yeah.

Like that's the biggest one that probably most owner builders don't understand.

Yeah.

If you're gonna be living in, it's fine.

Yeah.

My mom and dad were own builders of their own house.

Dad's an electrician by tray though, so they kind of, I

feel like tray's are very good.

Owner builders.

I feel like maybe.

Potentially architects and engineers are good.

Build a good and project managers that can definitely do it.

Yep.

Um, I don't think the accountant should be doing it.

Yep.

It's just, you need to understand that there, it's not just rocking

out with a hammer and chucking and now gun and go Woohoo.

Do and do you know what, if you're listening to this and you

are an accountant, or you are a marketing executive and you know.

You wanna prove us wrong?

Go for it.

Fucking awesome.

Yeah.

But my encour, I encourage you to just reach out and ask a bunch of questions.

Yeah.

You know, and I think I'm gonna put myself out there and say, if

you are a budding owner builder, and you've got some questions.

Hit us up.

You've gotta pay people.

So the one thing we get a lot of people reaching out for questions

is mainly our own builder as being like, how do I detail this?

And we go back to them is, Hey, here's our consulting fees.

People were talking about bringing out some handbooks and stuff like that.

So, you know, again, what we're trying to do is educate the industry and make

a better, so people are gonna do it.

Hopefully by the time this comes out, there's gonna be some resources for

our own builders to, to get in on.

Yeah.

Also, you know, sustainable Bills Alliance, you know, has a huge amount

of, um, information on the website there.

Information's there.

It's already there.

Like if you're to look at the detail of the window, like we've got behind here.

Go on our Instagrams, they're already there.

Yeah, totally.

You don't need to ask us on the side, how do you detail the

information is literally there.

You just need to get off your ass and find it.

Yeah, totally.

So that's with any builder, two or tradie, the answers are already out there.

Don't expect people to tell you all the time.

Sometimes you need to get off your ass and find the answer.

I'm gonna put it very bluntly.

Oh.

Anyway.

Uh, thank you Hamish.

Uh, we're still learning how to do these in person episodes, so

bear with us for a little bit.