Get ready for a captivating discussion that delves into the world of rapid company growth, leadership, and the parallels in the world of sports.

This episode starts by exploring the pitfalls of rapid growth within organizations and how mistakes can easily go unnoticed. Contrasting this, they dive into the intricacies of turnaround scenarios, where momentum needs to be built from the ground up, and mistakes must be addressed head-on.

Lacrosse takes center stage as our hosts share their personal experiences with the sport. It all started when their child, Brayden, took up lacrosse after being unable to play football. With little knowledge initially, their perspective on the game quickly changed after witnessing its intensity firsthand.

They discuss the success of their company's core values, particularly the value of extreme ownership. They recommend a book that perfectly encompasses these values, emphasizing the chapter on bad teams and leaders. Drawing inspiration from a story about Navy SEALs, they relate the importance of strong leadership to their own experiences coaching lacrosse, highlighting the transformative power of effective leadership.

Stay tuned as our hosts explore the concept of constant self-improvement, the impact of different coaches on team performance, and the role of collaboration and empowerment in achieving success. We'll also hear about their triumphant season as coaches, their unique coaching approach, and the incredible achievements of their team.

So grab your headphones and prepare for an episode filled with insights, inspiration, and a robust discussion on growth and leadership.

I'm your host, spencer Matthews, here with co hosts Ryan Riley and Dave Huffman.

We're excited you're here with us today as we share a story and experience

of success in lacrosse and share the concept of no

bad teams, only bad leaders.

You are listening to the Fifth Hammer Growth podcast, where we help you

find harmony in imperfection as you journey towards success

in life and in business.

When we were building our culture and building our company,

we talked a lot about culture and our core values

and what we wanted to try to

how do we and Spencer, you did a great job of this.

We didn't build our core values

until like a year and a half.

Yeah, we were operating for almost like a year and a half or two years

before we actually documented our core values. Right. And so it was based

on what we were already living. And that's what core values really are. That's what

culture really is. It's not what you write on the wall. It's not what you

put in a handbook. It's how you live and how you operate within your company.

I think what we tried to do is just document what

we were already doing right. In a way that could be

scaled and modeled and repeated. And I think

that was the success of our core values in our

company, is because we didn't try to force anything. Like you

said, we documented what we were living. Well, one of those core

values that we identified was extreme

ownership. Right? It was the entire book was our core

values. And if

anybody wants to read that book, I mean, everybody should read it. I think

every teenager should read that book. I think every parent should read

that book. That's a book that has to be on your reading

list at least once a year. But there's

a chapter in there that talks about there are no bad

teams, just bad leaders. And the story behind that is

phenomenal because they go into Hell Week with Navy Seals, and

there's this one team that was always behind. They were always

lagging, and there was this other team that was always winning. And they tell

this story. It's so great. And as they were watching

this, they decided to make one shift, one move, right.

They took the leader of the team that sucked, and they put them with

the leader of the team that was winning, and they swapped those two

leaders. And then all of a sudden, something beautiful freaking happened.

That team that was always behind said, oh, we got a leader. That's

amazing now. And all of a sudden, they were competing for first. And that

team that already knew how to win, they were

continuing to drive. And so those teams became one and

two throughout the rest of Hell Week. And it's interesting because I always

thought what a great concept that is

to theorize on, right? It makes sense in the book,

and it highlights

the concept that there are no bad teams, just bad leaders.

So what's interesting is I had a personal experience of that

in my life. I've always been

involved with lacrosse. My kids, three of

my four boys have played lacrosse. So I've

coached I coached Dallin, who's a junior in

high school since he was in third grade,

and he's played all the way up through

he's playing lacrosse for Centennial High School.

Last year, the team they had and we had

a coach that was coaching, and he was a great lacrosse player.

This coach knew the game like nobody else. I mean, he was a

player, he played in college,

but he was a young professional.

And I don't know that he had the leadership skills

to lead that team to where we wanted as parents and as

a board and everything them to go. And so last

year, they had a losing season.

There were only two seniors on that team. So two seniors

graduated. We literally had

the same exact team for this year. You should extend on the

losing. No? Yeah. I mean, it was a

disaster. Yeah.

Brayden you're absolutely right. I think we only won like two games. It was over

all two. And those were games that were

that I think the other team didn't have their starting players show up. I

mean, it was really bad. And for a long time, those were

the seasons. Just completely disappointed. The season before that,

we were skunked. Right. So there was no

progression going on and we didn't see any progression. Let's make sure we send him

this clip, too, by the way. I know I feel bad saying this because

if he ever saw it, he knows the coach knows who this is about. Right.

Because I actually gave him the book, extreme ownership.

It's interesting. At the end of the season, as a board, we came together and

said, we need to make a choice and we need to make a change. Well,

coaches, lacrosse coaches in this valley, there's

not a lot of them. I mean, there's really not. And most of them are

going to be young players that are coming out of college, and that's not what

we want. Want to stay in the sport. Yeah. So as a

board, we decided that we need to make a move. So I sat down with

the coach and we talked through it, and it was actually really good because he

was kind of filling some of that and his wife was just getting ready to

have a baby. And so we left. It mutual. Things are great. You'll

go your way, we'll go our way. We appreciate everything you gave

us, but now we don't have a coach

come fall, my good friend Jason Anderson

and I decided, you know what, because we don't have a coach, we're going to

step in and coach, and we're we're gonna do this

until the board finds a coach because there's challenges, right? You don't want

parents being coaches because there's favoritism. There's all kinds of crazy drama

that goes around with that, and we totally acknowledge that.

But we felt comfortable. And not only that,

I coached probably five of these kids from the very beginning

time they ever picked up a stick, because this is Dallin's, I

coached him, and Jason coached the other half of the team from

the beginning of them ever playing. And so we knew these boys.

We love these kids, right? Fall was great.

We had a winning season. I think we went seven and three in

fall, which was amazing. Coming back, we

started getting into spring ball

and this amazing team

went undefeated in their division.

I mean, the same kids that we had last year, except for two seniors,

went undefeated in their division last night. We were

in semifinals. We beat in semifinals 15 to

four was the final score in semifinals. They had

all star elections come out like the division and league, like

all state, first team, second team. Ten

players on that team became all I'm getting

chills for tears, man. Ten

players were all state. First team, second

team, only two. We had two that were second team, the rest were all state

and first team, ten. Last year, we didn't have any. I love

it. It's the concept of I mean, it's

a huge success story, but it emphasizes the fact that

there are no bad teams out there, only bad leaders.

And it's difficult because how do you know you're going to be a good leader

or not? And when do you identify that you are that good leader or you're

that leader that needs to be step

aside so that other leaders could come in? As you're leading an organization,

as you're looking at your team, man, what a

challenge that is. I think the moment you call

yourself a good leader, you're not a good leader. I

think you believe that you can lead people,

and your passion for that and your belief that

you can do that is what makes you a good leader, because you're

constantly refining and becoming a better it's the law of the lid.

A whole book could be written about this. The first time I recognized this

was in high school. There was a team in our league that went like one

in 20 or one in 22 or something like that. And I was

always blown away because there were some talented guys on that team. They

had a coach who was terrible. The next year, they got

even a decent coach. They went like 21 and went to the regional

the regional tournament. Wow. And then I think this is why I love Ted Lasso

so much, is it's this personified? If you can work with

people and you can communicate and you have the humility

to understand that.

You'Re not a. Great leader, it's kind of like, somebody told me one time, if

you ever meet a guy that says he's good at golf, he's probably an asshole,

because nobody says they're good at golf. It's just

something that you're working on for the rest of your life.

So, anyways, when you were going through your season, I remember

seeing it like, hearing about the record in the fall and thinking, oh, my

God, this is a story. This is exactly what

we talked about at Microbe. This is exactly the story in the book. Now, in

sports, I think there can be bad teams. Yeah, absolutely.

It's not like holding a boat over your head. It's, like, way more complex than

that. Which makes it even more impressive, I think. Well, I think it presents an

interesting dichotomy because I totally believe in that principle of

no bad team is only good leaders. But I also believe in almost a reverse

principle, that if you're part of a team, as a

sports player, I did see that I performed well

for certain coaches and terrible for other coaches, but I didn't recognize that in the

moment. That was hindsight. I think we've all had experiences, especially,

like, in youth, where there's some subjects we like more,

and it's not actually because of the subject, it's really because of the teacher. Sure.

Right. Or a class is engaging, or a presentation at a

seminar at a conference is our favorite because they were

a great speaker. It may not actually have been, like, the content that really hit

us the most. Right. And so there is that concept of

another one for you, like parents. If you look at parents as a leader

and the family as a team. Right.

There's so many dynamics where leadership sets the

tone, but at the end of the day, if the team is taking

extreme ownership, it's actually all on them. Right.

So you want the team to take ownership. That know, I have the

ability to choose for myself.

And my story is my journey because of my choices,

and I'm responsible for that. And the concept of no

bad teams, only bad leaders, allows people to throw a rock at a leader anytime

they want. And so it's a

dichotomy right. Where I see both as

truth and it's interesting. I love the story.

No, I think there has to be a balance. And it was interesting because I

was going over moments this year last night,

as I was thinking about the success of this team and them going into the

championship game on Saturday. And I remember there are certain things that stood

out and trying to identify

how do you empower your team to step

up to be those players? Right. And I

remember specifically there was this one moment catcher is our

goalie. He's a junior in high school. I was hoping you'd tell this. Yeah,

he's not our best goalie. In fact, Izzy Martin went

86% save rate. That dude

has been a wall. And I taught Izzy how to freaking

hold a stick when he was in third grade, and he

seriously is one of the best goalies that I've ever seen at

this level. Right. But catcher was

in on this game, and it was at a tournament. We're

playing out of state teams, and there's always this stigma of playing out of state

teams. These guys just come in and destroy. In the

past, when we played this tournament with these same out of state teams,

we never beat these guys, never beat them

in the first quarter. In the first five minutes of the game, we went down

30 instant 30, and

I pulled catcher, and he came off

hot. Like, he came off saying, what the hell? You're taking me out already?

And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, settle down. What are you seeing? And he

was like, what? I was like, what are you seeing out there? Something you're seeing

something that I'm not. What can we change? What are you seeing? He's

like, you're not taking me out. I'm like, no, I want to talk to you

about what's going on. And he's like, oh. He's like, okay, well, if

we did this and this and this is what's happening, and this is why. And

I was like, awesome. I called timeout. I brought the defense

together, and we talked through what they were seeing

with what catcher was seeing, and we came together as a team. They went back

in, and we won the game. And

catcher was so blown away that I wasn't going to yell at him, I wasn't

going to take him out. I wasn't mad at him. I was just

frustrated because I wasn't seeing what they were seeing. Something was happening on the

field, and that is a critical I think that's a critical part about building

culture and being a leader, is that you have to acknowledge

that you don't have all the answers. You're not going to see it all. You're

not going to see it, all. Right? And it comes down to the point where

you have to be able to empower your players to be able to see. And

so from that point on, every time we come off for a break

or time out or anything, I bring my team together and, okay, what are you

guys seeing? And we talk through it. Yeah. And I think people miss this part

of extreme ownership because it's not necessarily about, oh, it's

my fault, my fault, my fault. Like, it's not

about that. It's about collaborating all the way up and down the

chain so people feel like they own the

plan. Right. And that's what you did. That's what I love about that story, is

you pulled him out, you asked him what he was

seeing, which a lot of coaches will do, but then

you allowed what he was seeing to

impact the game. And the decisions made. The decisions made came from what

he was seeing. So you collaborated with him in real time on

the plan. They went out and executed against what he was seeing. You know what

I mean? So he was able to sort of make the decision,

which is always going to fire up a team more than the coach telling them

what to do. That's why truth experience is more impactful than truth told. That's

why that's so powerful. Well, yeah, you give people a voice, right, and you allow

them to be part of the input that affects the output. And whether

it's sports or it's family or it's business,

it's the same, right? Yeah,

it was really cool. But you think about what we did as we were building

Microbe, right? And as we were building our company,

how many times did you hear me tell anybody, go figure it

out. What do you think? Right? And it's that idea

of and it got to the point

where they hated me saying, like, especially because

we had such a young age wise company employees, our

employees were really young. A lot of them were just out of

college. Some of them were in the middle of college. Some of them were.

And they would come with a question. Ryan, Ryan, Ryan, Ryan,

Ryan. And if I sat there and answered everybody's question, I would be like,

I couldn't get anything done. So the easy response

to empower them was, what do you think? And if they

didn't have an answer, go figure it out and trust the fact

that and here's the challenge, right? Because sometimes they came back and I was like,

I totally don't agree with that. That's a dumb freaking answer right

there. But you trust the fact that it's going to get them 80%

there. Yeah. Right. And then you massage it a little bit. You work with them.

What about this? What about this? And now they're maybe 85% or

87%, and then they go do it, and it's their idea and it's their

plan. Right. And I think that was the power

of what we tried to do, is just let these kids know on this

team that we could win together. So I have a

question. Obviously, like, the coaching leadership changed you and

your friend, what leadership dynamics changed in

the team and the players, were there any new captains?

Did they start acting in a different manner? I'm curious if you

observed or thought about that at all, too, of

if you saw any changes in them. Yeah, I think that one of the things

that we really tried to do as

coaches is we allowed our players

to talk to us. Right.

I think when you get young leaders and there are

situations where they believe that if they're not giving

the answers or providing the answers that they don't. Then they're not

leading. Yeah. You know what I mean? Then they're not really leading. Or if they're

challenged my

players, challenged me because I'll admit those kids have been playing a lot longer than

I never played in college. I never played in high school. I didn't even know

lacrosse until Brayden picked up a stick. And it's funny, he started playing

lacrosse because my wife was like, you're not playing football. And so he's like, well,

then I'll play lacrosse. And we're like, cool. Lacrosse is we don't even know what

lacrosse is. Even worse. And then we went and saw the first game. We were

like, oh, my hell, dude, this is freaking ball with weapons. He

pivoted to something more violent.

If you don't have bruises up and down your arms, you're not playing. Right?

So I didn't know anything about the game. And some of these

kids have been playing a lot more than me. And so I have to acknowledge

the fact that as a leader, I'm here to curate the conversation, to

put in the system and to establish the way that I

would like to see the game. And

but at times, they come off. They're like, dad, backer's not working. Dallon

specifically, dad backer's not working. They're getting through our zone

defense. We need to switch to man. I'm like, what do you guys think? Okay,

let's do it. We switch to man. And we dominate instantly because I had full

faith in my four Horsemen, my four defensive

players, who, by the way, were the only team because I'm the

defensive coach. We're the only team who had all four

defensive starters elected to allstate

first team or second. A, we should reach

out to the Idaho Statesmen or whatever and get a modern day Ted

Lasso write up. That would be cool. So here's the other

thing that I did with this four. So we have a captain

for attack, we have a captain for our midis, and we have a captain for

our defenders, and then we have a team captain, right? So we created four captain

spots, right? You see where this is going, right? And then once a week,

we have the fifth hammer. Literally,

it's that fifth hammer that leads us out and sets the tone

and the cheer. And they're identified, based on their effort in the

previous week, who's the fifth hammer this week?

So I knew that story. I was hoping that was going to be the answer

to the question, because think about how that changes the leadership

dynamic, right? You take the guy who probably wasn't getting a

lot of recognition, but deserved it because he's

working hard, maybe would. Get the most improved player, right? Or

the most inspirational player. Yeah. Everybody wants to

rally around that guy. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, it was really

cool to wrap this up. Just a

phenomenal season, amazing experience

with these players that, like, I've known most their

life. I love these kids and the success that

they're having. But the key here

is the ability to watch

a principle that we loved and talked about and read about

in real life work. And I think that's where

truth told and truth experience versus truth told. Right.

That was one of those things I think I will always remember the

concept of there's no bad team, just bad leaders. And you're

absolutely right, Spencer. You can point to leaders, but that's not

anybody taking extreme ownership. Right. Leading up and down that chain of

command, all of those principles that came into play were part of this

team, and it was just beautiful.

Yeah. And I think as leaders, to be a good

leader, you have to adopt that mindset. And to be a

leader, you're already putting yourself out there if people throw rocks at you. How

many times did we say, everything you say is heard through a

microphone or megaphone and everything

you do is seen through a microscope?

Yeah, man, I love that story. And I love that you went,

like, undefeated, because anything over two

wins would have validated the

hypothesis, but you really drove it home. Yeah. In our

division, we were undefeated. We played other teams outside of our division. We had

really close games, but in our division, we were undefeated

and undefeated through the tournament. We're going to the championship game on

Saturday, and I'm just super excited about these

guys. The other thing is, some of these

principles are really easy to get behind

when you have extreme winds of growth

blowing into the sales. And what I mean is, like, top

line growth, top line revenue can hide a lot of mistakes. So

I've worked at companies before where it was really easy to let people go

off and figure it out because the growth was going to cover up all the

mistakes anyways. In a

turnaround scenario where there is no growth,

I think it exemplifies the point even more, because

it's not like you're coming off of a ton

of momentum, right. And you're just trusting that the momentum is

going to keep you going. Like you had to get momentum. So that's cool,

man. So you guys want to hear my Fifth Hammer experience

this week? Yeah. So we're cat family.

We got two kitties this week. On Monday, cats

typically have four fingers. Our

cats have five. Oh, shut up. What? Our cats have thumbs.

Wait, hold on a minute. Fifth Hammers? Your cats have

fingers? Well, yeah. Pause.

Dude, that's so creepy. Your cats have thumbs? Yeah. They have Fifth

Hammers. We got Fifth Hammer cats. Seriously? Two of them? What kind of cats are

they? I don't know. Normal cats. I go over to your house and it's got,

like, a human head. I'll bring it in for the

pod. It's sitting there drinking coffee.

Did you get chessire cats from Alice in Wonderland? You got mutant

cats? My wife, man. Does your cat sit on like a

beanbag and smoke out of a hookah like the cat from Alice in

Wonderland? That's what we're training it to do. That'S freaking

Rad bye.