God has a plan for everyone, a purpose for your life. Your identity is a bringing together of God’s many gifts...in, for and through you. Listen in as co-authors Rev. Jonathan and Christa Petzold explore God-given identity in their recent book, "Male and Female - Embracing Your Role in God’s Design." Pastor John Cain hosts.

The following program is sponsored by Evangelical Life Ministries.

Welcome to Engaging Truth, the manifestation of God's word and the lives of people around us. Join us each week as we explore the impact of his message of spiritual renewal from the lesson of forgiveness forged and the crucible of divorce, to the message of salvation learned by an executioner from a condemned killer to the gift of freedom found in the rescue of victims of human trafficking. This is God's Truth in action,

And welcome to another edition of Engaging Truth. I'm your host, Pastor John. With us today, we have a couple from Illinois, Reverend Jonathan Petzel, his wife, Christa. They're with us today, and we're gonna be talking about God's plan, God's design, and a little bit what, uh, that means for our witness to the world. Welcome to the program.

Yeah. Thanks for having us.

So, when we talk about God's plan or God's, uh, design for us, uh, sometimes we talk about vocation, how God tells us, maybe whispers in our ear what we can, uh, do to be his witnesses through our lives. Uh, but there's a another way that's, uh, just kind of built into us. You wanna talk about that?

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So, uh, I think you're right, you know, with, um, uh, God's, uh, design for us to be witnesses to the world, um, we kinda looked at Diffusion chapter five, where, where Paul talks about, uh, um, wives and husbands and their roles, um, uh, as like heads and helper and, and, um, God's designed for that. And, and, and many times, uh, I guess maybe to our modern ears, that that sounds a little like, Whoa, that sounds a little backwards, or, uh, maybe in cringy sometimes. Uh, but, but in, in that passage, uh, Paul says something really interesting is he, he says that, uh, this mystery is profound, and he is referring to marriage, but he says that it actually refers to Christ in a church. Um, so, uh, we wee we wrote this book, uh, male and female, embracing your role in God's design.

Uh, and our big idea there was that, uh, God designs our marriages, who we are as husbands, and whys to reflect the, the, uh, more true, if you wanna say it that way, or ultimate marriage of Christ and his bride, the church. You know, did you know Jesus was married? Right? Uh, that, uh, he, he has a bride, uh, the church and, um, uh, that relationship of unconditional love, uh, of, of the giving of oneself, um, uh, self-sacrifice and, and, uh, the wonderful headship that Christ shows to us as the church, uh, as, as his bride. Um, our marriages have an opportunity to, uh, reflect that. Um, Yeah. You wanna say

More? Yeah. And the, the book is not only for, it's not only about marriage, because we all, um, live as either men or women, right? We are created male and female. So the book is really about an exploration of what it means as Christians to be created male or female, and the way that our maleness or our femaleness impacts our vocations and a with God and our proclamation of the gospels of the world. Um, because the concept of being created male or female is in and of itself controversial today. Um, which it, you know, is counterintuitive because it seems like sort of the most basic level of our experience. But, um, because marriage is a picture of Christ in the church, and men and women are designed for marriage, um, even men and women who are not married, we all proclaim the gospel and point toward that image of Christ in the church, in the way we live out, um, our lives as men and women. Um, and so it has the way that we allow those vocations, um, to influence us in our lives and the way we live them out, can point to Christ. And so they're really significant in that way as our witness.

You mentioned the gospel proclamation. Why don't we start there when you define what you mean by the, by a gospel proclamation.

Yeah, thanks. You know, I think, um, you know, when we would define the gospel, it to be very specific, uh, that it is, uh, that, that Jesus, uh, the son of God, uh, died, uh, to forgive our sins and rose again, uh, to give us eternal life. Um, and that, uh, that, that salvation is, is offered to all. Uh, and so I think that in our design, we as, as human beings, as men, as women, uh, get to reflect that gospel, uh, and, um, basically, and who God has made us to be. So as, as heads, if you wanna say it that way, uh, we as as men, have the opportunity to, uh, practice that same kind of self sacrifice, um, and, and care that Jesus does, uh, toward the church and, and toward the world. Um, and, and then also in that, uh, what I like to say is that, uh, Eve when she was made, uh, she was made as like the climax of God's creation.

And, and God said something very interesting where he said, It is not good that man should be alone. And, and that not good is kind of weird because sin wasn't in the world yet. Uh, so, so Eve kind of shows, uh, kind of gives witness to the fact that we have a God who, uh, intervenes. So, so Eve is a reminder of God's divine intervention. And that's ultimately brought out when, uh, Jesus, who was the promised one to eve, uh, the offspring that would crush Satan's head, uh, uh, Jesus comes as the, the newborn Savior. Um, and, and so, uh, as, as helpers that that's not a, uh, derogatory term, uh, that, uh, the one who uses, uh, the, the term helper the most in scripture is God of himself. So it's like a, a military aid kind of help. Uh, and, um, it just, it just reminds us that, that God intervenes, uh, and that God cares for its people. And so that, that's what we get to reflect that gospel proclamation as heads and helpers, uh, that, that Jesus is the, the head who comes and he intervenes on and God's behalf for our benefit.

So in Ephesians eight through 10, the Apostle Paul talks about how we are saved first for a purpose. You're saved first by grace as a gift from God so that no one can most, right? So that we may do the good things that God has prepared in advance for us to do. Now, you talk a little bit about marriage, and I think you talk about two different ways that that marriage, uh, or two purposes for marriage.

Yeah. So, um, in the garden, um, God gives Adam and Eve, uh, jobs to do sort of the first kind of great commission we kind of call it in our book. And so he gives them two instructions, right? Be fruitful and multiply, multiply, and then to have dominion. Um, and so those two things to sort of fill the earth with people and to like grow the, the people of God that way, and then also to have dominion, um, is not like to dominate over creation, but to care for it and to nurture it, and to provide right to, So those are the two tasks that Adam and Eve are given. Um, and then tragically in the fall, um, they, they fail and, um, Adam and Eve have these specific roles in the way that they are to work together to complete these two tasks. And in the fall, we see sort of a reversal of those roles and, um, sort of, those roles are now tainted by sin. And so we struggle now to live out those roles rightly, um, because of the curse.

So now, instead of like dominion, it's domination and it's, it's control, and it's, uh, for the sake of the one, uh, it's all trying to benefit the one who is in charge, right? That that's what got intended for that, uh, loving dominion, right? Um, and then of course, uh, you get in Genesis three that the pain in childbearing and that, um, you know, when we have dominion in the world, uh, it bites back. There's thorns and, uh, ra raising kids and, and, and raising next generation is, is is difficult, right? Uh, so, but I think what's interesting about that too is that, um, and Genesis three in the curse, uh, uh, kind of like Chris was saying, those roles don't go away. Uh, but, but they are mutated, if you will. Uh, and, um, so, so Genesis three, it's a description of what it looks like when, when sin happens, right?

Uh, but as Christians, uh, we are made new in the image of God. Uh, we've, uh, remade in the image of Christ, um, which, which means that we in, in our, in our marriages, but also who we are as, as just, uh, individual human beings, um, uh, get, get to, uh, try to live more like Jesus, who, who by the way, fulfills those roles perfectly, right? Uh, and that kind of connects to the new great commission, uh, go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them, and the Father on Holy Spirit, right? Uh, Jesus is, uh, the one who ultimately is fruitful and multiplies. He gives life, uh, he, he makes new disciples out out of sinners, right? Uh, but then he also cares for the world in the greatest way. He has dominion in the greatest way by, by dying and rising again.

Right? So you were talking about Genesis. So just to be clear to our listeners, we're talking about the first book in the Old Testament, and we, we read that as history. We don't read it as a, as a morality tale or a fiction or, or some sort of myth. We, uh, we look at this as being absolutely foundational to the rest of the Bible and the rest of the Bible doesn't make much sense unless we, we read it the way that you're describing. So, um, talking a little bit about marriage and God's original design, talk a little bit about commitment.

Yeah, yeah. You know, uh, I think as, uh, as, as Christians, I think that we, we best reflect, uh, the love of Jesus by being committed to each other in our marriages. Uh, so, so that marriage is, of course, is not just about, um, uh, lovey dovey and, and, uh, having the feelings of love, uh, but actually self-sacrifice actually being committed, uh, to, to the spouse, uh, kinda how, how we say in our vows, right? For, for richer, for poor, uh, and sickness and in health, for better or for worse, um, you know, it's, it's that kind of commitment, uh, with that kind of commitment that we actually get to reflect the love of Christ. So, um,

Yeah, and Christ's commitment to us is not conditional, and it is, um, without end. So Christ does not ask, uh, you know, our relationship with Christ is not predicated on anything we do, right? It is, um, based completely on his commitment to us and what he has done for us. And so, um, our marriage is to sort of point to that image of Christ in the church, reflect that kind of total and self-sacrificing commitment. Um, which of course, when you talk about that, you always have to give the caveat, like there are things like abusive relationships, and we have a whole chapter in our book about, um, abuse and, and what can happen and what sort of to do and what posture to take when relationships that are supposed to, um, model this kind of self-sacrificing love. Do not do that and do the opposite of that. So definitely want to sort of give that that caveat. But at the same time, um, most of us are called to have just absolute unconditional commitment in our marriages as marriage is a picture of Christ in the church.

So would you term your book as being self-help, or would it be more recognizing what help God gives us?

Yeah, I would not call it self-help. Um, so we wrote it as a Bible study, um, sort of a topical Bible study. So every chapter is rooted in scripture. So each chapter has one sort of main biblical text that it's based on, and then pulls in other versus in sections that are relevant. Um, we, there are a lot of Christian books out there and non-Christian books that are kind of lists of things to do or to not do, you know, like five steps to a happy marriage, that kind of thing, or that that is not what this book is at all. We did not write that. Um, so that may or may not have its place. But, um, we really wanted to write a book that shows the goodness and beauty of God's design for marriage and for our, our manhood and womanhood from scripture.

Um, so the goal is to see that the Bible isn't a list of like, you're allowed to do this and you're not allowed to do this. It's not like a set of behaviors that we just align with and hope that we can be good enough, right? Uh, we can't be good enough. And that's legalism when you make a list of rules, and then you just have to follow it, and then you hope that that's enough. Um, the Bible is a picture, is a story of the actual redemptive act of Jesus, right? Jesus coming into the world to redeem us, to save us from our real sin and to make things new again in him. And so this book is what it attempts to do, is to connect the dots between our experiences as men and women, and that story and show like that. It's not arbitrary, like our maleness and femaleness is not an arbitrary detail of that story. It is woven as the fabric of creation, and it's part of this picture. And so we can't set it aside. We can't set those roles aside, and we can't set our identities as men and women aside and still retain, um, God's word because God's word is inspired. It's without error. And the whole thing together, um, is one story. So like we can't select pieces to, to keep and to take out and that kind of thing that doesn't really work.

So if we were to, to look at, uh, living in our world, uh, paint for us a picture, what, what the difference is between living fully in, let's say, recognition of God's plan versus, uh, just following the ways of the world, how those are two divergent paths, and how could we recognize if we are in kind of a, a weakened position?

Hmm. I think this probably goes to, um, the different uses of the law, would you say?

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I think that I, I think that sometimes living in our world, um, as Christians can be rather difficult because, you know, the Bible says things that, uh, if you're a Christian who, who, uh, affirms the Bible as the, uh, full word of God, uh, and sometimes the Bible says things that are kind of hard to, to live with right? Uh, in the world, and, and people say, Whoa, you, you, you have that kind of countercultural stance, uh, uh, on whole myriad of issues, right? Um, and, and so I think that it, it can be kind of difficult for, for us as Christians to do that and be even tempting to say, Well, maybe we can just ignore those parts of scripture. Uh, we can just ignore, uh, the law, uh, if you will, and, um, uh, just stick to the, the, the nice stuff, uh, you know, Jesus dying in the cross, uh, to forgive you sounds pretty nice and eternal life sounds pretty nice, but, uh, the, I think it becomes an issue for us as Christians, because if we don't have the law, uh, the gospel does not mean anything, you know?

Right? You don't, you don't need the gospel. Uh, and the law is important in law is good, uh, because it shows the, the kind of world that God made kind of world that I designed, um, that, that, uh, he, he designed this world to, uh, to, to be good and, and to take, uh, to, uh, take care of, uh, each, each other, you know? And that's really what the law does, is it, uh, encourages us to care for each other and for the world. And so when we sin, uh, sin is going against that design. Uh, sin is, uh, uh, it's acting in ways that are selfish, ways that are destructive to the, to the world, to God's creation, uh, and, and ultimately not helpful. So, so I think as Christians then, uh, uh, we, we cherish the law. Uh, we know that the law accuses and, and, and, uh, it shows us our sin. And that's, that's when we go to our savior. Uh, but we also use the law as a guide, and we say, Well, uh, how, how did God create this world to, to work? Uh, and, uh, since we are made new in Christ, uh, we, we want to strive to live by how he designed us to be. Because guess what, Uh, Jesus comes back and he, he, uh, redeems all things and, and makes the world brand new, uh, that is going to be how we are going to live.

So what we're talking about the law, we're speaking specifically about God's law, not, uh, constitutional law or tax law, anything earth that we're talking about how God works with, uh, his, uh, now broken, uh, uh, Earth, and you know, it like it does, uh, show us our sinfulness and our degree of separation from God and his perfection. Uh, and then we have the gospel, the good news, that Jesus has died for our sins and has redeemed us. He's, he's restored, uh, restored our, our, uh, uh, future with, with God, right? So when we look at these relationships, one between man and woman, and then also between God and humanity, um, you talk about all of, uh, the believer on the earth as the bride of Christ, The church is the bride of Christ, and so we, we have these relationships. Um, what, what would be some, some places where our listeners could find out more about strengthening these relationships, either with God or with, um, our significant other?

Yeah. Well, uh, so, so, uh, as far as just what the relationship is, um, uh, designed to look like, you know, that that's a book that we wanted to try to, uh, provide an end resource we wanted to try to provide. So, uh, that, that might be a good place to start, is just with, with our book Male and Female, uh, embracing Your Role and God's Design. Uh, but if, if you're looking for, uh, simply just more about, uh, Jesus and, and our world, uh, and, um, God, God's story of the world, uh, of course scripture is, is the best place to start, you know, and, uh, uh, uh, checking that out. And, and you mentioned, uh, Genesis earlier. Uh, you know, I think, I think reading through Genesis, uh, and, uh, kind of the origins of, of that world, um, you know, I think that that's really helpful. And then, uh, looking at the New Testament about how Jesus redeems that world, uh, and, and, uh, redeems a future for that world.

Well, if I'm ever in, uh, uh, Rose Illinois, I'd like to stop by Trinity Luther Church and, and, uh, give you here on a Sunday morning. But, um, failing that, looking up your book sounds like a good idea. Where could we find a copy of, uh, of this book?

Yep. It's available, um, from Concordia Publishing House, so cph.org, um, or on Amazon, you can just google the title, Male and Female, Embracing Your Own Guys Design, and it'll come up on Amazon for you.

Very good. I, I'd like to, uh, point our listeners also to, uh, this radio program's website, e l m houston.org, and they're on our website. You can find past programming, you can find links to our Facebook, Twitter, YouTube accounts. Uh, you can also find an address where you may write us, or an address where you may email us. Either way, we're glad that you're here and we hope that you support what you're listening to. Now, back to, uh, Jonathan and Christa again, we're, um, intrigued by, uh, your supposition that, uh, marriage has got an aspect that is for the couple themselves, but also an aspect of living service to the world. What would you say to, to someone who, um, is not sure about, uh, the witness of, of Christians to the world around them?

Mm.

Yeah. You know, I think that, um, uh, many times it's hard to see, uh, uh, uh, the, the church as, uh, witnessing in a helpful way to our world. Um, you know, as sometimes we, we get it wrong, and by the way, uh, Christians are all sinners, right? Uh, and so we don't always give that good witness. Um, in the book, we have a chapter on, um, uh, what what it looks like to be, uh, both, uh, uh, embracing our rules as men and women, uh, both as individuals and in the family. Um, and we've got a note to fathers there, uh, that, that says, Hey, dads, you know, uh, you've got this, this role as a dad, You, you, uh, should be a good father. You should be, uh, helping your children to, uh, uh, be responsible citizens in the world. But the most important thing that you can pass on to your kids, even even more important than being responsible citizens, um, is, is kind of dealing with your sin. And, and the way that we deal with sim as Christians is we, we forgive, uh, and so as, as, as dads, it's, it's, uh, practicing that repentance, um, of, of those sins, and then also sharing with your kids that hey, not only have, you know, do we, do we, uh, struggle as sin, but we repent, and we also get that, that forgiveness mm-hmm. , um,

I think that's a big part of like a marriage as we, we talked about earlier, Like our marriage is having, being based in the concept of unconditional commitment, um, that is practically impossible without forgiveness. Mm-hmm. , and that is really what Christians have that the world needs is we understand that we can forgive each other because we are forgiven by Christ. Um, and so you, in your relationships with your children, in your relationships with your spouse and your relationships with other family members and other Christians, like, we can live out that kind of forgiveness. And that is something that is very foreign, um, outside of the church. And so that, um, is a way that we can demonstrate that we really believe that we can be forgiven in Christ when we can like, let go not only of our own sin, but of each other's.

Mm-hmm. ,

Uh, Pastor Schultz and I have done a little bit, uh, in the realm of prison ministry and, you know, talking about forgiveness, that is one place where most of the, uh, residents of those facilities never learned that lesson. Yeah. About forgiving others and how important it is in, in our families and in our communities to, uh, to demonstrate forgiveness and what that really looks like. Uh, it's not always easy, but as, as part of that, uh, mission that our Lord has called us to do, uh, as we are his witnesses here on earth, um, to, uh, to make an increase in his kingdom and to point others' eyes to Jesus. Well, Jonathan and Christa, this has been, uh, enjoyable talking with you. We, uh, hope that many people check out your book and, uh, more people understand the role that our Lord has established for each of us to play in this his world. Join us again real soon for another edition of Engaging Truth.

Thank you for listening to this broadcast of Engaging Truth. Be sure to join us each week at this time to help support our ministry. Contact Evangelical Life Ministries Post Office Box 5 68, Cypress, Texas 7 7 410, or visit our website@elmhouston.org or find us on Facebook at Evangelical Life Ministries. Thank you.