We delve deep into the realm of audit in the fourth episode of ‘Inside the Auditorium’ with our next guest, Karen Connell, Chief Audit Officer for PaySafe. We discuss how internal audit offers opportunities for career growth and variety, the importance of bringing your full self to work, and transferable skills across internal audit functions. Karen also provides advice for women looking to build their careers in internal audit and discusses the future of remote work.  

This episode explores:  

• Empowering women in audit: Karen advocates for returners programs and the immense value they provide to organisations and the wealth of transferable skills that individuals bring to the table. 
• Embrace your authenticity: In a world where authenticity is key, Karen encourages professionals to bring their whole selves to work, sharing the importance of being genuine, passionate, and motivated.  
• The value of transferable skills: Karen sheds light on the transferable skills required to navigate different areas of audit. She highlights the need to get to know the nuts and bolts of an organisation and understanding where risks are and apply those skills you already have. 

Don’t miss out on Karen’s wealth of knowledge, guidance, and expert insights that will help elevate your career in the ever-evolving landscape of internal audit. 

Enjoy!  

Note: The views expressed by Karen are her own and do not necessarily reflect those of her employer. 

Welcome to Inside the Auditorium. If maybe you could just explain who you are and what you do, please.

Hiya, I'm Karen Connell, I'm the Chief Interim Auditor at ASafe.

And you've had quite a long internal audit career. What actually made you sort of get into internal audit?

I think this year will actually be 20 years since I first made the move from a role in a group finance function into internal audit. Number of reasons for that, that move into audit. I didn't really know at that stage what I wanted to be when I grew up, potentially still don't. But I had a few good mentors at the time I was working in a bank and I come off the graduate program. And what I didn't like about the day job that I was doing was the

day in and day out looked pretty much the same. And they started to kind of challenge what type of role might suit, whether it was project management type piece of work. And somebody I think was the previous CFO in that part of the firm suggested audit. And he'd actually spent some time internal audit through his earlier career and suggested that might appeal given the focus on risk controls and also to some extent on the finance side of things. But because an audit effectively has

beginning, a middle and an end and you know that sense of satisfaction of what I call wrapping an audit up in a nice bow at the end and you know high-fiving the team and doing the debrief with management and everything so a real sense of achievement at the end of each project that you've done something that's added value to the firm so I stepped into it somewhat unknown and then I've spent the best part of the last 20 years doing it and loving it all the time.

So, and you was with Barclays, right, for a very long time, where you grew your career. What made you sort of stay in the one company to do internal audit?

Yeah, I was in Barclays for about 15, 16 years, 10 of those in audit. Um, it went in a flash effectively. I probably had about six or seven different, um, different roles whilst I was in that, um, in Barclays internal audit and 10 of, sorry, about six of those were overseas, so continually challenging, continually getting exposure to new parts of the organization, um, a couple of global relocations, which was, you know, challenging and exciting. Um, and it never felt like it was the same. So.

even at the point of time that I left Auditor Barclays and moved into the business, I could have stayed longer, I could have stayed there for longer, but I did want to challenge myself to take a leap of faith into a first line role, and then after that carried on in internal audit, after I realised how much I missed it.

And tell me what's the difference then, you know, going from working in a long career with an internal audit into first line? Is it, you know, how different is it, you know, was it?

So the audit function at Barclays was a really great place to learn the craft, if you like. And I had some really great mentors and some really great leaders in that time. It was a huge function and it was run with really great focus on development of its people, feedback culture, mentoring, that kind of thing. So it was very different when I left audit there. Barclays moved into the business.

And in many ways, it was a really good challenge for myself to come out of the comfort zone of something that I knew very well and into an organ, a part of the organization that was very different, was very reactive, was very fast-paced, and obviously was part of the organization that I was working in, was doing a lot to rebuild their credibility with the internal audit function. So it was quite nice transition that I spent a lot of time facing off to my old colleagues in internal audit.

in the role that I was doing because it was looking after governance, conformance and conduct.

Okay, great. And you mentioned earlier that you travel, you got the opportunity to travel with your, with your roles. What sort of countries did you go to and how did you get, how did you get to do that?

Yeah, so that's a good question. And my first relocation was probably more on a convent basis, but I remember, I remember this day very well. And this was a long time ago, Barclays Audit had annual conferences and I'd seen on the audit plan that there was an audit of the impact management of HIV AIDS in Africa. And I was really interested to get involved in that audit. So at the annual conference, I asked somebody, and this is probably an example of how I've

I think progressed pretty well in my career. It's just taking those bold steps at getting out of the comfort zone. And I asked somebody who I needed to speak to get involved in that review. And they pointed me to one man in the corner. So by the end of that night, I'd approached him and said, you know, what do I need to do? I'm really interested to do this. It's not the norm, you know, it's not an audit of KYC, of customer onboarding and those kinds of things. I'm really interested to do this audit. And he said, well, it's coming up soon.

So let's get you to the travel agency and get the various vaccinations that you need to go across these five countries. And, you know, soon as I'd had those done, that was it. That was on that assignment. And I ended up going back a few times and doing a number of pieces at our office in South Africa and working across that part. And then had the opportunity to be part of a very big team that was reviewing a...

an acquisition that Barclays had made in South Africa. So that was then also a great opportunity to go back to that region and also get exposure to mergers and acquisitions type audit work. It's really interesting.

And before then, did you travel a lot socially or with work?

I think so I was part of the personal corporate and wealth banking area. So it would be the kind of 5am wake ups to get the 7am flights either the Isle of Man or Jersey or places like that. Some day trips across Europe to the Paris business, the Spanish office and things like that. But not as far as Africa. I mean, when I got on the plane, probably at that time wave goodbye to my parents, not having any clue what to expect. Yeah, that felt like quite a big step. It was quite nervous.

So was you traveling on your own then, or was you meeting a team to travel with? Wow, okay.

No, I travelled on my own. I met the team based in the South African office. So Barclays Africa was based in Johannesburg and spent a few days with them. And then we started flying out to the countries to do the review in about four or five sites.

So that must be quite a big thing then for you, especially sort of in a country on your own and in terms of dealing with the diversity there and how things were done differently. What would you think sort of been a notable change in that?

Yeah, I think that's probably the biggest, had the biggest impact that. And so after that, I ended up moving to Dubai and helping set up a regional office for what was then the new hub for Barclays Africa based out of Dubai. And continued my work with those countries. And we had 12 countries that were part of that, that part of Barclays, Barclays Africa. And I really think that time in that role gave me an opportunity to, to kind of

refine my

It really gave me the perspective of what works in the head office in London, isn't necessarily always going to work in your Zambia office or your Garner office. So really thinking about how to communicate with remote teams and communicate clearly and to make sure that you bring everyone along on the journey when you're working with teams that aren't co-located.

And you've, you've audited quite a lot of different products going from sort of wealth asset management, then moving to M&J and now you are in the payment space. What do you think in terms of auditing payments as a whole, what do you think has been sort of your transferable skills to be able to do that?

Yeah, and I think I always like to say that audit is audit. And I think the value of that is a certain approach to questioning, to understanding processes end to end. It's absorbing information, really getting into the nuts and bolts of an organization and understanding where those risks are. And we do that on every audit anyway. We don't approach any audit as a specialist unless you're set as an SME and I'm not an SME. So it really is about getting into the detail.

same as when I moved from banking into life and pensions, it's really getting to know the unknown because auditors don't, you know, we all have a fear of things that they could be a risk lurking in this very small part of the organization that is outside of our awareness. So it really, for me, is putting in the hard yards at the start to meet people, to understand the organization and to demonstrate that you can.

apply a risk-based plan that talks to the risks of the organisation. So I did have some time previously at Barclays, about 18 months in Barclay Cards, so I have spent some time in the payment space and that was a global role. So it isn't completely new. You know, some of the key risks, obviously, in a payments organisation are financial crime. That's not new to me from a banking background, IT security, data, customer outcomes. So a lot of the same key themes.

Some of the niche products, I'm still working on the detail to kind of improve my knowledge when we think about things like crypto.

I've noticed a lot when I'm recruiting at the moment, which is a really big area is consumer duty. How much is that sort of impact in the payment space at the moment?

Mm-hmm.

So I'm actually wrapping up an audit of that and I've wrapped up an audit of that in every organization I think I've been in. So it is a big change for all UK companies or companies that have some regulated aspect from the FCA. And I think there is a difference in having MI that tells you how your customers are feeling, things like Net Promoter Score, for example, versus being able to really evidence the requirements of the duty, which is.

tell me about the outcomes and tell me that they're getting the right price and tell me that you're giving them the right level of communications and that they understand what they're buying into. And I think that's just a change of mindset. I think most organizations have that data there is just reshaping how to package it up to demonstrate you are delivering on those outcomes or at least monitoring them.

Sure. And so what would you, so I mean, the current company you work for isn't small either, right? But what do you say versus a big, you know, working for a big internal audit department to working for a smaller internal audit department?

Yeah, I'm doing some recruitment at the moment. And this is one of the things I stress to people that have potentially only worked in the larger firms. It is very different. And I think I probably had a good stepping stone of working at Barclays, which was at the time about 800, and then moving to Prudential that became M&G that was about 90.

It is, you have more autonomy and that's what I like about it. So when I joined the role at Prudential, it was my first experience of an SMF role. And I really craved that accountability. There's lots of layers in the bigger audit functions. There's lots of people to check with on decisions. And things are often slower as a result. And I think in the smaller functions or smaller audit teams, you can make more of an impact in terms of shaping your own methodology, shaping your own processes and ways of working.

and really create your own in-house style. But it is, you know, sleeves rolled up, and that is something that I enjoy. It doesn't necessarily appeal to everyone, but it's something that when I'm going through recruitment processes, I'm really kind of reiterating to people is that need to, if something needs to get done, sometimes there aren't three, four people around to help you pull a team together to brainstorm, you just have to get it done.

Sure. And earlier on when you mentioned that, you know, you went to the guy in the corner to ask to be able to travel, do you believe if you hadn't have actually gone to that person and asked for that opportunity, that the other opportunities would have fallen into place?

Um, that's a good question. Who knows, right? But I think I had after that, so at the point in time that I took that first jump and got myself on that order, I'd also bought my first house. So I was probably somewhere mid-20s and didn't spend much time in that house. So after that, I then kind of went back to the UK and said, I need to stay here for a bit. And then I got a tap on the shoulder for the role in Dubai. And I sat there in the London office kind of...

Yeah.

trying to avoid the question saying, I probably need to stay in London for a bit. And the managing director, who's a very good friend of mine and has always been a good mentor and coach to me, kept asking me. And I think in some ways he probably knew that the challenge of it and the excitement of it and the stretch of the role would tempt me to go. And obviously it did. So, but I decided at that point, I need to rent the house out. You know, the house is empty, I may as well make some money out of it.

You've got a family as well. Have you been able to navigate your career by having a family and being able to travel and do this?

Yeah, I think I've got a very supportive partner. When we met, when we actually met in Dubai, he's South African, so that's very ironic. And then we ended up going back to South Africa before coming back here. He's very supportive. He works in completely different industries. So he has always been able to, I would say, keep me watered and fed. So when we met, I was pretty much a workaholic. And I think I do tell people when he met me, I was eating Coco Pops for my dinner.

and he has a food and beverage background so he really does keep me fed and watered and you know in style so can't complain. But I did have my children late and I think you know there's no right time to have children but I did I did have them quite late. I had my second one when I was I was pregnant when I was 40 so I think at the time I'd spent a lot of time focusing on my career and trying to take all these opportunities.

And then obviously felt, you know, at some stage I did really want to have children. So, you know, I had them after I left bar, please, and my second one when I was at the Prudential. But I'm paying for it now, it's for a three year old who doesn't really sleep. You know, it's that permanent exhaustion of trying to do a relatively senior day job and keep a toddler from, you know, screaming and hollering at five o'clock in the morning. So all good fun.

there's hopefully an end in sight when he goes to school later this year.

And do you think sort of having children later, you know, your energy levels or do you think that that's affected how you do your job or?

I think this is where it really helps when you look at the kind of the family unit as a whole, and everyone's got a completely different family unit and levels of support. So my other half's family aren't here, my family are about an hour away. So in terms of, you know, support on the school runs and babysitting, it really kind of is limited. But equally, I think in a post-COVID environment, after having the second one, there is more adaptability and acceptance of the fact

if I'm not around as much and I am working from home, it's great that I can do the school run and show my face and get some kind of brownie points back with my oldest who's seven. But it is, and as I say, you know, I think it is just about making time for yourself as well. So I try and get to the gym at least three, hopefully four times a week. And that's really important for me, really important for me to give me my kind of energy back, even if I'm exhausted, I will always feel better after going to the gym. So...

I'm pretty committed to making sure I get time for that.

did you think sort of how has the pandemic impacted you then you know in a better way or

People had flipped it to using video, sorry, phone calls versus video calls. And I think that for me was a slight disappointment. A downside of the pandemic is that you do lose that face to face interaction. I think it's really valuable in an audit role. You know, you miss out on so many of those water cooler conversations or passing somebody on the way to the lift where you say, Oh, I need to pick up on an observation with you, or I need to just talk something through with you.

that is always a lot easier to do in that context versus setting up a formal call or doing it behind an email. So I think the audit professionals had to work a bit harder since COVID to try and create those face to face interactions.

And do you think then, you know, working for an American company, do you think eventually that everybody will go back to work five days a week? Do you think that's the solution or?

I don't honestly think I'm not an advocate of five days a week in the office. I mean, I pre-COVID used to always do four and do Fridays at home. And that's because when I was in the office, my day was never my own, you know, and that's great. And that's the way that I like to work is that if somebody wants to cover something, I would always find time. But then your to-do list is still your to-do list at kind of 5, 6 p.m. So I always used to try and guard Fridays to...

do my quiet work, which might be reviewing a report, it might be writing a committee paper or something like that. And I think post COVID that kind of day is now, it's dissolved across the week, if you like. So I think that the challenge that I've got at the moment working for a US firm is the time zone difference. And I haven't had that in my last role probably since back in the park these days of having both time zones is, you know, feeling like you're on top of things and then

you know, the other part of the organisation wakes up and the emails and the work volume picks up again. So I'm about eight weeks in and that's probably one of the biggest challenges now is making sure I, you know, I do the right thing in terms of wanting to focus on things the next day versus in the evening. So, but there's still a lot to do. So at some point, you know, I'm actually one of those people that prefers working late at night versus early morning. They always have been.

But yeah, so I think it's just finding a pattern that works for you. And I think post COVID, you know, I don't, some people like leaving their, turning their laptop off and, you know, and being done at 7 PM. I've always been a focus on my last role as well, after my first child, trying to get offline about 5.36 so I can spend some time with the kids before bed and then finish up what I wanted to do. And it's probably the same amount of hours in a day. There's just a break and I'm happy to sit there in the evening.

Whilst my lovely husband cooks me dinner.

Sure. Yeah, well considering I only live up the road, I'm quite tempted to, you know, I don't mind coming around and tasting the food. Did, and do you think in terms, I've recruited for various banks, and it always seems that the bank of where the head office or the most dominant has, you know, the most dominant location sometimes don't really take on

I'm sorry.

I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

the respect of other locations in terms of timings and just set meetings as and when they feel that they need to? Do you think that's changed at all?

I've never really had a problem with that. I mean, I don't think generally that in any of the organizations I've worked, there's been an expectation that you're online at a certain time. And I think one of the important things for me about being comfortable and happy in a firm and then staying for a number of years is the culture and how they value their people. If there was an expectation that I was dialing into calls late at night, then I would probably challenge whether or not I needed to be in those meetings or whether or not they could be.

of mutual, more mutual, mutually agreeable time. You know, the board meetings that I've got for the US are three to six or two to five, remember. So now I think that generally is respected. And I've seen that most companies that they treat people well.

What do you think internal audit is a good opportunity or a good career for women to build their career?

In some ways, like I said before, audit is audit. So it is one of those areas where if you take some time out, it's not going to significantly change so much that, you know, you're on maternity or you take some time out for other projects and things. You don't forget how to audit. You know, you can apply those skills. And I think it is also about personality. So if you enjoy talking to people, understanding their processes, their controls, listening.

working through what issues could be and collaborating, then if that's your style, then audit would work well for you. So I think it can lend itself to that. But also I think that the nature of audits being generally, some organizations will be different, but quarterly led. So you might have some deliverables across a calendar quarter. In some ways it's quite easy from a maternity perspective to know what you're missing.

and to kind of know when you can insert yourself back into it from a plan perspective. So say you're off for a year you might miss the annual planning stage for the subsequent year but that's okay you come back and you insert yourself back into the plan for the next year after the break.

I think it's in some ways back to the comment you made before about customers and consumer duty. So I think there's a huge, obviously in the payment space, pushed to more automation and trying to get efficiencies through speed and through digitization. But there's always a need, I think, for a human element when you think from a customer perspective. So I think it's just that balance of...

how far can we go with automating processes to speed up the customer outcomes, to perhaps filter the traffic so that we can resolve concerns, questions at first point of contact, but really make sure that we've got the right feed or triage to those where the customer contact is important because you can't automate everything. And I think in terms of customer experiences, people do still value that face to in-person contact.

as payments are sort of more online now.

Yes, we understand the financial crime degree of that, but do you think that the role of the auditor has changed that they should be more hybrid in terms of having the technology as well as the business audit experience now?

Yeah, I guess it's a different landscape for recruitment at the moment and definitely for me. So the generalist auditors tend to want to move into a certain business line. So we hired people in my old organization that were keen to work in investments or keen to work in retail savings side of things. I think you can get people that are specialists that have got good financial crime knowledge, but operations and payments and technology are.

you know, things that I think in some ways you have to learn on the job based on the, you know, the technology and the size and scale of your organization. So there's an element of, for the, for the team roles I'm going to be recruiting for is I can look through CVs and I can try and see if somebody's got some transferable skills, but also I think personality and the right mindset to go out and build up your own knowledge and understanding of the organization is equally as valuable.

So if you would tell your younger self or maybe more junior auditors now, would you tell them maybe not to be so siloed and to move around and understand different product areas?

Yeah, and I think a lot of the, we created a graduate program in my last organization. And so these were individuals that hadn't worked before, let alone worked in financial services, and they were keen to get exposure to lots of different things. And I think naturally audit gives you that because you could be auditing something very technical. And the next moment you could be auditing a group HR process, for example. So I think audit does give you that breadth.

But certain people may have a specialism that they want to focus on, whether it is technology, they may enjoy the technology challenge and want to focus on risks, for example, cyber or IT security risks. So I think it I think it can be different based on the individual and their background and career aspirations. But I think one thing that I struggled with when I was younger is that kind of question we talked about the start in terms of knowing what you want to be when you grow up. And in some ways, I think.

This is

people entering audit as a first part of their career can use it as a platform to look across an organisation and see where they might want to progress their career if not within audit. And I think mobility across organisations is good and it has been perceived positively in all the firms I've been a part of. So it does give you that breadth to be able to see different parts of the firm. So good opportunity.

And obviously you've been going into third line, going into first line, coming back to third line. Did you, internal audit obviously gave you that opportunity to do that, but firstly sort of third line to first line, do you just prefer third line? What made, or was it just the opportunity that made you go back?

No, I actually really missed it and I do really love auditing and when I meet other people that love auditing, you know, you can see it in their eyes, we're a certain breed. But I did, I missed the variety, I missed meeting people across the organisation, I missed when I was in the first line forming new connections and helping to work through things. So it for me feels like a...

a great role to collaborate, to demonstrate value to the organisation, but also to really challenge ourselves because I think as auditors, you know, we can deliver on a plan as it's written down, but I think there's really something to be demonstrated in terms of the value by looking at how we can add more work that's got a commercial edge and thinking about the organisation's strategic priorities and making sure that we're focusing on the right things.

And then starting to think about things like, you know, the assurance provided across different parts of the organisation and working with second line functions to collaborate. So, yeah, I missed it. I can't say that I'm going to be here for the rest of my days, but I do really enjoy it for now. And I think there's still a lot of opportunity for growth for me.

So, and what's helped you do you think in your career?

I mentioned earlier some good mentors and sounding boards and I think that's really important to be able to share thoughts and for them to give you open feedback on what is working and isn't working. You know I really appreciate people giving me a steer on things I could do differently so having that has really helped me.

Yeah.

But also I think, you know, I really am grateful for having had the opportunity to, as I said earlier, like hone my craft or learn my craft in a really big audit function. You know, where in some ways we were ahead of other firms just in terms of some of the thinking on things, you know, like your rating for audits, you know, and this is 15 years ago. How do you audit culture? How do you audit governance? How do you audit strategy? And

And those are things that because we had a large structure of an audit function, we had the opportunity to do some thinking on that and be more pioneering across the industry in terms of approach. So that was really, really impactful for me and it's helped me, I think.

So would you care to mention any of your mentors and how they helped? Ha ha.

Name check them.

Actually, I think it's his birthday today. One of my, the mentor that I've been referring to is a guy called John McElvogue. And if he's not listening, I'll have a word, but it's his birthday today. So happy birthday, John. He was my MD across Berkeley's Africa and the Middle East when we were based out of Dubai and setting up a team. So, you know, we were sleeves up, recruiting all the time, getting used to, at the time it was a Sunday to Thursday work week. So just navigating those kinds of challenges.

Bye.

Yeah.

And then actually, when I moved into the business in the first line, he was the global chief controls officer for that part of the organization. And I was reporting it to him as well.

Okay, so what's the best bit of advice you've been given then?

Oh, I don't know if I'd be able to repeat that. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. I honestly think and I think it might be from somebody else, but we focus a lot on soft skills training when we were, you know, through all the organizations that we've been at. But I think it's that authenticity is being yourself. I don't know if this was advice, but maybe this is the advice I would suggest it is bringing your whole self to work, you know, I'm

hahahaha

a little bit rough around the edges in terms of, you know, style. I'm extremely passionate. I'm extremely motivated. Sometimes I'll get it wrong, you know, but I think you've just got to give it your best and really be passionate about that. And all the teams I've worked in, I think you've felt that and it helps motivate because, you know, they know that we're all learning. They know it's a safe environment to challenge themselves and stretch themselves. So, yeah, really be yourself, you know.

You can't change your approach and pretend to be someone you're not for 10 or 11 hours of the working day. So, you know, just bring yourself to work.

Sure, sure. And for other women to get into the internal order, is there any advice or anything that you could recommend?

Um...

I think if you've not worked in audit before, I would just probably, you know, and hopefully this podcast would reach that demographic, people that haven't worked in audit before. I would say give it a go. Cause I think there can obviously be a perception that audit is quite dry. Um, you know, but we're not a tick box function. We're not a, you know, sit there and review a document and send an email saying computer says no function. It's not policing. Um, it is about personality. It's about being curious. It's about asking questions about understanding the business.

and trying to create improvements in the controls in that organisation. So, you know, from my perspective, what's not to like? But I think in terms of coming new, you know, if they've got an opportunity to think about trying to get people through audit and women returner programmes, that kind of thing where they may have taken time off for, you know, 15, 18 months for whatever reason. You know, I hired somebody through a returners programme in my last firm and she's still at the firm and was a huge value to the function. So I think just

just consider moving into Lorde. Because I think if you've got a lot of transferable skills that are, you know, you enjoy working and looking at processes, you enjoy understanding how things work and critiquing things, then it could be for you, even if you perhaps don't know it is for you.

Okay great well I'm just going to do a quick fire round before you leave us today.

You know, I'm telling you. Alright?

Um, where's the best place you've visited and why?

I feel like I should say where I met my husband. Where is the best place I've visited and why? That's a very good question. You said quick fire round, hey? I'll tell you where, it's a place called St. Lucia, but it's not the St. Lucia that you think of. We were showing my daughter pictures of this. There's a place in Africa called St. Lucia where hippos walk about the town. And you can go out on boats, wards, you'll see hippos. Yeah, I found an old video on Facebook of us, basically on this small boat with about...

I really?

40 or so hippos around us and the guy was just in the background, the guy running the boat, well raft, should we say, getting everyone to tea order. And it was just hilarious to look at and show my daughter, she couldn't believe it, that we were just in the middle of all these hippos. But yet they roam around the town as well. So who knew that place even existed, but fantastic.

What's your favourite way to spend a day off?

Definitely not a soft play. If I get the opportunity, it will be going to the gym, first thing, so it's done. If I'm thinking about weekend, it will be trying to find somewhere new to eat that's gluten-free because I'm celiac. So, you know, I try and find different brunch spots. There's lots in Leoncy where you live. And yeah, trying to do that and catch up with some friends. If we have the opportunity for a babysitter, maybe going out with my husband for a drink, but you know, very rare these days.

and just resting. It's perma-exhaustion isn't it if you've got a family and a job and a house to get sorted and the life admin so quiet time I think at the weekends is really important.

What current book are you reading or podcast are you listening to at the moment?

I am at the moment spending all of my time reading all of the external links and articles I can find that relate to the industry that I've moved into. So a book that I'm reading that's half open is probably some chick-lit, easy to read, what you might read on the beach type thing that I started perhaps on my last holiday. But that's probably the only non- payments type thing that I'm reading at the moment, I've got to say.

Sure, okay. And what would be the title of your biography?

Muadha'il Kufai.

She came, she smashed it, she conquered.

I'm gonna go to bed.

Well look, thank you very much for your time. Yeah. Well look, thank you very much for your time today, Karen. It's been great talking to you. Bye bye. Bye. Right.

No worries. You too. Thanks, Hazel. Take care. Yeah, bye.