Chester Elton: The Carrot Principle

[00:00:05] Jason S. Bradshaw: What if the most powerful driver of performance wasn't pressure, but praise?

[00:00:14] Jason S. Bradshaw: Hey friends, welcome back to Chats with Jason. I'm your host, Jason S. Bradshaw, and today's episode will shift the way you lead forever.

[00:00:22] Chester Elton: If you wanna attract top talent and you wanna retain that top talent, you have to have a ratio that's positive. And there is nothing that creates a positive workplace more than the simple act of gratitude, random acts of kindness. I'm excited. I love to teach. I love to share with people how you can create those cultures where people believe what they do matters.

[00:01:00] Jason S. Bradshaw: I am joined by the legendary Chester Elton, bestselling author of The Carrot Principle, Anxiety At Work, and Leading With Gratitude.

[00:01:34] Jason S. Bradshaw: In this episode, we dig into why recognition often fails, and how to make it stick. How to lead with empathy without sacrificing results. And the mindset shift that turns workplace anxiety into engagement. If you wanna build a culture where people feel seen, stay longer and perform better, this conversation is your roadmap.

[00:01:58] Chester Elton: Jason, delighted to be here. Thanks for the invite.

[00:02:16] Jason S. Bradshaw: Let's jump into the very first question and get to the heart of your work. How do you explain what you do, why it matters to someone who has never heard of culture consulting or gratitude leadership?

[00:03:53] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, absolutely. I was just about to say it just proves that the nice guy doesn't have to or the nice person doesn't have to finish last.

[00:04:15] Chester Elton: It's to do it right away. Often leaders, you've got so much on your plate and you'll say, "well, I'll remember later, " and you won't.

[00:04:54] Chester Elton: So often we forget that if we don't do it right now, we're probably not gonna do it.

[00:05:20] Jason S. Bradshaw: So, you've said, I think maybe three or four times already, and we're only a few minutes in, that gratitude isn't soft, and by extension of that and your work, it's a secret weapon for high performing cultures. Can you walk us through the business case for appreciation? Like some people watching this want to know what's my ROI on saying thank you.

[00:06:18] Chester Elton: So this idea of a great culture, and we talk about cultures that are all in, I love that expression. A lot of sports teams we're all in, or when you push all the chips to the center of the poker table. This idea of I believe what I do matters and I make a difference. That's that emotional engagement to work, right? So we always add to that though. I believe what I do matters and I make a difference. And when I make a difference, it's noticed and it's celebrated.

[00:07:48] Jason S. Bradshaw: And I just wanna highlight the point around being timely in that feedback because as much as I praise the individual from American Express that had the intention to write down so we didn't forget to praise, if we leave it too long, the person we're praising might not even remember the actions that they took, and therefore how do you get that repeated behavior that we're all looking for? So,key takeaway there. Make sure that we are timely in our recognition.

[00:08:34] Chester Elton: Yeah, I love that expression too. I actually have added a little to that.

[00:08:39] Chester Elton: A culture eats strategy for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It's just never ending. The problem is if you don't build the culture you want, a culture will develop whether you like it or not. It's probably not the one you want. So being very intentional about your culture. I'll share with you a couple that I think are phenomenal.

[00:09:46] Chester Elton: I will tell you a funny story. Adrian and I actually wrote the auto biography of Kent Taylor, who was the founder of this like 400 restaurant chain. Well, as they started to grow, of course they brought in consultants and different things, and Kent actually, and I apologized to any MBAs that are listening. He hated MBAs and he hated people that wore ties. Like he would cut it off. And people would actually wear their ties so that they cut it off so they could have it as a souvenir, right? It was very funny. But they got this one consultant. They said, "You know, Kent, you gotta kinda come up with the times here. You gotta talk about the environment. You gotta talk about equity. You gotta talk about inclusion and on and on and on." And he said, " You know what? How about it? Two rules. Whatever you come up with, can't be more than four words. And two of those words have to be legendary."

[00:10:54] Chester Elton: Now, had they not focused on that, if they'd said, "Okay, we want to be..." and you could put all the buzzwords in there that you want, right? It's too confusing.

[00:11:31] Jason S. Bradshaw: And couldn't remember one of them.

[00:11:39] Chester Elton: Now, another great example... big financial company we just talked about - Ken Chenault, spent a lot of time with American Express. They're blue box values. They're posted everywhere. People know what they are. It's high integrity. You can go to Johnson and Johnson, the J&J credo. Legendary, and it's lasted for decades, and decades, and decades.

[00:12:11] Chester Elton: And boy, you think of those names - J&J, American Express, hopefully introducing Texas Roadhouse to a lot of your listeners, and you can't beat it.

[00:12:31] Jason S. Bradshaw: You've mentioned, touched on that big places like American Express have their values posted everywhere. And then you said, but it's talked about constantly. It's reinforced constantly. And I have this opinion that there are organizations out there that have these wonderful executive offsites, in all transparency. I've been at them, as a participant, and you walk away with hopefully not 12 core values, but you walk away with some core values. And then the next natural action that most companies take is let's, put them on some posters and hang them up around the place, and someone inevitably with all good intentions says, job done ticked.

[00:13:37] Chester Elton: Excellent question. We'll go to Texas Roadhouse again, and then I have a couple more examples for you there that I think will be helpful for your listeners.

[00:13:56] Chester Elton: Now, Texas Roadhouse, right? Employees, associates, teammates, whatever you wanna call 'em. At Texas Roadhouse, they're affectionately called Roadies. You gotta love it, right? And then lots of music, and anyway.

[00:14:45] Chester Elton: I'm a big fan of tokens. Now, Texas Roadhouse used to have peanuts that you'd eat and the shell would go all over the place and then allergies kinda kicked in and they had to change that. They had an award. It was the Golden Peanut. It was great! it was a silly little thing. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't a Fabergé. It was just fun. Oh boy, if you ain't got a golden peanut, that was a big deal.

[00:15:23] Chester Elton: And you look at great cultures over the years, they've got rituals. They've got tokens. They've got golden peanuts. They've got rubber chickens they pass around, and you say, well that stuff is kinda silly. It's 'cause you don't get it. And not everybody uses a rubber chicken, obviously. Not everybody uses a gold. You figure out what works in your culture. That repetition, that cadence.

[00:16:08] Chester Elton: So yes, excellent question. Rituals, cadence. Don't discount that. And then it takes time.

[00:16:17] Chester Elton: Any culture takes time.

[00:16:53] Jason S. Bradshaw: Just wondering about recognition in the context of building great cultures, what excuses or myths do you think leaders have that they use to give themselves permission to avoid making practical recognition?

[00:17:22] Chester Elton: Excuses, I mean, we can all come up with excuses. It's the old adage, "I don't care how bad the storm was. Did you bring the ship in?" Start with I brought the ship in, then you can tell me about the storm.

[00:17:31] Chester Elton: So some very common ones.

[00:17:59] Chester Elton: So if it's important, it's a discipline.

[00:18:08] Chester Elton: Let me ask you something. So Jason's doing a great job and you know, really knocking it out of the park with this unbelievable podcast he's got, right? You don't have time to tell him he is doing a great job. Well, he knows he is doing a great job. I don't need to tell him. I said, great. Jason screws up how much time you got for him now? Oh, I'm on that in a New York minute.

[00:18:30] Chester Elton: So you've always got time to discipline somebody. You've always got time to point out what somebody's doing wrong, and you're telling me you don't have time to tell 'em what it's doing right? Doesn't that seem a little backwards to you? You go, well, yeah but they go, don't gimme any butts. Don't gimme any excuses. It takes practice, it takes discipline. You have to be intentional. And you don't make the time 'cause everybody gets the same amount of time. You find the time and that's where rituals really help. You just build it in.

[00:19:17] Jason S. Bradshaw: Wow.

[00:19:31] Chester Elton: I'll tell you what's really interesting though. Once leaders start to do it, and at the beginning, they're not good at it, you can't expect that, right? The more they do it, the better they get. There's this tipping point, as Malcolm Gladwell would say, right? From, you're a leader that gives recognition. You're a leader that gives gratitude to your leading with gratitude. You're a recognition leader. The more you do it, the better you get, and then there's that tipping point and it just becomes a part of your leadership style.

[00:20:02] Jason S. Bradshaw: You know, as we've chatted there's so many questions that I have for you, but I've been thinking about organizations, well-intentioned departments set up these things called recognition programs, and they're a little bit different to the rituals that you've talked about.

[00:20:44] Jason S. Bradshaw: What's your take on those? Because nothing we've shared today has been about bureaucracy in the process of recognition. None of it's been about let's have 50 steps to saying thank you. What's your take on those sorts of programs?

[00:21:00] Chester Elton: I think it's for those managers that really are so intimidated by bringing their personality into that. It's a nice reminder and I think employees really appreciate it. I think it's one of the elements of a great culture. What you're hoping with those, and a lot of those platforms also have non-monetary, and no points and all that. You can send a fun little e-card or something.

[00:21:44] Chester Elton: I think you're right. A lot of times you gotta be careful with those because then you say, okay, I brought in a million dollar account and I got a hundred points, and Susan brought in a $10,000 account and she got a hundred points. There's this commoditization that says your behavior was translated to X number of dollars or euros or pound, sterling, whatever you deal in.

[00:22:23] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, makes a lot of sense. So you've shared some really great stories with us. You've got me thirsty and hungry to go to Texas Roadhouse. But I'm wondering whether there's a company that you've worked with, and you don't have to name names, but that's radically improved their performance and retention through recognition.

[00:22:57] Chester Elton: Yeah, well, I wanna tell you the story of this optometrist company up in, Canada. We started to work with them right before the pandemic.

[00:23:15] Chester Elton: And so one of the things that we really focused on was not only are you recognizing and praising your people, and we say, look, do it now. Do it often. Be specific and be sincere. And that often part became really important during the pandemic. Now, they really were disciplined about it. They met regularly, right? They told stories of heroic, service to their customers as you might guess. If somebody can't get their reading glasses, they can't read. I mean, it's kind of important that you'd be able to see.

[00:24:28] Chester Elton: I wanted to share with you, 'cause I know we're coming to time here pretty quick, but my son sent me this wonderful article about Leo Tolstoy, the wonderful Russian author, War and Peace, and so on. He said he studied human behavior, and he found that in his study of all these different people and characters that he based on real people. The most intelligent people that he ever met, all had one thing in common. They were kind. Isn't that interesting? They were kind. And see, I think gratitude and recognition is an expression of kindness. They're inextricably woven together, right?

[00:25:10] Chester Elton: So this idea that kindness is soft. The recognition is soft is absolutely 180 degrees wrong.

[00:25:18] Chester Elton: You think of the great leaders you worked for and the great people in your life. I guarantee you that you always knew they were cheering for you. And they weren't easy on you by any means. They pushed you and they challenged you, and they were kind.

[00:25:34] Chester Elton: And I think that, you know, kindness and gratitude, when you put those two things together, not only is it a sign of a great leader. I love Tolstoy. He says it's evidence of intelligence. Gotta love that!

[00:25:49] Jason S. Bradshaw: Look, we're at that point in the show where people are intrigued by your work. They're wanting to follow you. Connect with you. What exciting things do you have coming up and what's the best way for people to keep in touch with your thought leadership?

[00:26:17] Chester Elton: thecultureworks.com is the consulting and training company that Adrian and I have put together, and chesterelton.com. If you're looking for us to speak, or train, or executive coaching businesses really blossomed, and we love that because if you can get leaders to really buy in and make the change, the ripple effect through their teams and so on, is remarkable.

[00:26:50] Jason S. Bradshaw: Fantastic. And we'll be sure of course to put those links in the show notes.

[00:27:01] Chester Elton: Sure! Absolutely.

[00:27:13] Jason S. Bradshaw: And I know in the US, as is in many of the western worlds, at least, there's this conversation around people returning to the office, and hybrid working, or remote working. Some are for it, some are hate against it. I'll go far to say they hate it.

[00:27:41] Jason S. Bradshaw: But how can leaders show appreciation in this world of hybrid and remote working, in a way that still feels authentic and personal?

[00:27:52] Chester Elton: You give people your time. Call 'em up, zoom 'em up, teams 'em up, whatever, however you do it, and you develop a relationship.

[00:28:17] Chester Elton: Now, it depends what your commute is. You know, I live just outside New York City. Trust me, those commutes can be soul crushing, right?

[00:28:28] Chester Elton: Yeah. The trains even aren't all that reliable. It's not Singapore.

[00:28:56] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, certainly the research work that I've done as well customers and employees alike, no matter what they say, they crave human connection.

[00:29:08] Jason S. Bradshaw: Some of us need a lot of human connection, and some of us need less, but the reality is someone working remotely needs and desires human connection as much as someone that wants to go into the office every day, and we need to cater for that.

[00:29:35] Chester Elton: Yeah, listen, I'm a big fan of cheering for people.

[00:29:58] Jason S. Bradshaw: I'm not a golfer and it's still wow!

[00:30:03] Chester Elton: Anyway, Scott builds remarkable teams very quickly and he bases it on the rule of three. You and I talked about Keep it simple, right? And his rule of three is - when you come to work, give me your best every day. Gimme world class every day, right?

[00:30:32] Chester Elton: The third one though, he says is the key, and that is we cheer for each other. So if you can be the leader early on, that's quick to point out what's going right, not ignoring what's going wrong. I'm not saying that. If you're the one that can really build that esprit de corps that says, wow, we're in this together now.

[00:31:10] Chester Elton: Scott says, look, you look at your team. Who's easy to cheer for? And then ask yourself the tough question, who are you not cheering for and why? Maybe they're in the wrong spot. Maybe they need to be coached up. Maybe they need some training. Maybe they need to go play for another team, right?

[00:31:40] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, well, great advice there.

[00:31:59] Chester Elton: Yeah, I'll leave it with you in a story.

[00:32:49] Chester Elton: So sure enough, one beautiful summer day, and Vancouver is shockingly beautiful. We're walking down the Army and Navy, and sure enough, this homeless woman is coming across the street with a big brown paper sack. Everything she owned .It split open and spilled on the sidewalk. Nothing, you and I'd wanna own, everything she owned.

[00:33:29] Chester Elton: Now I'm a teenager at this point, Jason, so I pretty much knew the world, right? And I said to my dad, I said, "you know, dad, you probably shouldn't have touched her. She's probably not clean." And he looked at me and he said, "Ches, you be good to everybody." Everybody's having a tough day. I never forgot that. You be good to everybody. Everybody's having a tough day.

[00:34:13] Chester Elton: This idea of caring for your people, being kind, cheering for them at the same time, holding them accountable. I'm not discounting that at all. You wanna be a great leader. Let your people know you care about 'em.

[00:34:28] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah. What great way to end the show, Chester. Once again, thanks for being on the show with us today.

[00:34:36] Jason S. Bradshaw: Fantastic.

[00:34:47] Jason S. Bradshaw: Chester reminded us today that leadership isn't just about driving a results. It's about creating a culture where people want to do their best work.

[00:35:07] Jason S. Bradshaw: If today's conversation sparks something in you, do me a favor, share this episode with someone who leads, loves, or lifts others, and don't forget to hit that subscribe button so that you never miss out on the conversations that are reshaping the way that we work and live.

[00:35:32] Jason S. Bradshaw: Thanks for tuning in to Chats with Jason.