Building a successful client accounting services practice isn't just about choosing the right software or pricing model — it starts with the clients you choose and how openly you communicate with your team about what drives profit.

In this episode, co-hosts Damien Greathead and Penny Breslin field listener questions on some of the most pressing operational challenges facing CAS firm owners today. The conversation opens with a deceptively simple question: how much should your team know about client profitability? Penny and Damien unpack why sharing the profitability of services — rather than individual client financials — can help your team understand the impact of scope creep, delays and inefficiency, without exposing sensitive numbers.

From there, they dig into the real-world damage caused by clients who chronically delay. Penny shares how repeated bottlenecks from a handful of clients can derail an entire workflow, stress the team and block the path to higher-value advisory work. They discuss practical strategies for identifying the root cause of delays — whether it's missing documents or unanswered questions — and adapting your communication method to suit each client.

The episode also covers the case for vertical specialisation, with real examples of firms that specialised in breweries, dental practices and restaurants, including how deep industry knowledge helped one firm help clients pivot through COVID lockdowns. Damien and Penny close with a candid discussion on AI's actual impact on accounting workflows and the realities of using offshore teams, including why team buy-in matters more than client perception.

IN THIS EPISODE

• Understand why service-level profitability matters more than client-level profitability — and how to share that insight with your team without exposing sensitive financial data
• Identify and manage chronic client delays before they derail your entire workflow and block the path to advisory work
• Separate "missing information" from "missing documents" in your workflow statuses to diagnose the real cause of bottlenecks
• Discover how vertical specialisation can sharpen your marketing, reduce overheads and make your firm the go-to expert in an industry
• Hear real examples of firms that specialised and thrived — including a restaurant specialist who helped clients pivot to distilleries during COVID lockdowns
• Learn how to respond when clients ask whether AI should reduce your fees — and why the reality of AI in bookkeeping is far messier than the marketing suggests
• Understand what it takes to make offshore teams successful — and why internal team buy-in matters more than client perception
• Explore how to communicate the value of monthly CAS services to clients who only see the worth of annual compliance work

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Moneypennyllc.com
• QuickBooks
• Xero

Welcome to the latest episode of It's Not Just the Numbers.

This podcast is designed for accounting and bookkeeping firm owners who want to build their advisory services practice, starting with client accounting, AKA bookkeeping.

We know that it's not just the numbers when it comes to being successful with cas.

And this podcast dives deep into the world of client accounting services or client advisory services.

We share our experiences from working with hundreds of firms around the world.

Plus we'll talk to practitioners who will share their insights, their experiences, the good, the bad and the ugly of what has worked for them and hasn't as they build a business that deviates from the traditional accounting model.

My name is Damien Grated.

I'm sitting here in lovely sunny Sydney.

My co host, Penny Bresoland.

How are you today?

Where are you joining us from, Penny?

It's sunny today.

Wyoming.

Sunny Wyoming.

Fantastic.

So, Penny, last episode we got into client selection and we discussed this idea of clients actually being a part of the team because they have roles and responsibilities.

They've got to do particular things in terms of getting us the information, agreeing to the statement of work.

And there's a lot that we rely on our clients for.

And to be successful with cas, you've got to be much more communicative, much more collaborative with your client, don't you?

The other area that we talked on when it comes to client selection was getting the team involved in client selection because they're typically the ones on the front lines, whether it's the accounting team, the tax team, the administration team, they probably have a lot more day to day contact with the client than you do.

So they certainly have a perspective.

One of the questions that actually came in from a listener asked us to dig a little deeper on this idea of the team getting involved in the client selection side of things, particularly with when it comes to profitability, because sometimes there's.

Well, more often than not the client, the team doesn't actually know the profitability associated with clients.

So how transparent are we with our team when we are talking about client selection, particularly when it comes to profitability?

What are your thoughts?

There's.

I think it would be kind of tough to have that discussion completely be 100% transparent.

I can understand why somebody might be reluctant, but having your team understand the scope of the engagement and where the cost is and where the value comes in and what they're part of making that value is that that could be a way of doing without giving them exact numbers, you know, financial data numbers.

Like when I'm talking to my Team and I get it.

I'm not a regular accounting company, I'm an outsource who handles it.

But when I discuss with them what this client's desires are, I impress upon them if we do this correctly, there's a good chance we're going to get this.

And when we get to this, then this is when we're going to stop making this becomes profitable.

I don't have to give them the exact number.

I think that that's a choice you can make.

It wouldn't matter for me to give them to the exact number.

I think with other certain members of your team, sure.

It's really handy for them to know, hey, you know, that particular function that we do has no, there's no profit in it.

Sort of interesting in terms of.

Then that's.

Then the team has the discussion of okay, so if we're not making profit on this service, why are we doing it?

Well, does it have some value?

That's not a non tangible.

That is a non tangible value.

It's like is it.

It can be a loss leader where you're doing something very low level to get people in the doors to get them move up the food chain.

That's one thing.

This DAP option and letting them know, hey, this work that we do in this area doesn't really make us a lot of money.

But I need you to pay attention to the client because if these things occur, this is where we can have our value added.

So having them part of that and having them understand that the basic day to day, maybe small level work that you're doing is not making us any money.

It has to be done efficiently.

And if it's done efficiently, then that's when we make the profit.

And here are the things that are profitable.

You can have that discussion with them.

I don't know if everybody's going to want to give out exact numbers, but if you do and you have a good team and it's a close team, then yeah, you could.

But it's just really important I think to let them know what the scope is.

Because that's when scope creep happens.

When you've made the sale and you've brought the client in and you go back three months later and go we're doing.

What are we charging them for that?

Did anybody do anything about that?

Those are the kind of things you don't want to have happen.

Well, I think there's a couple of points there that you raised which I think are interesting because one is the fact that one is this idea that being very transparent about the profitability of services.

So maybe it's less about the profitability of a client but more, more so about the profitability of services that our bookkeeping services are priced this way and, and so as to be competitive in the market.

And then that might be the driver there.

And then there is an incentive for us to be efficient.

There is incentive us to maximize the use of our technology, incorporate AI into terms of how we can become more and more efficient.

And the more juice that we can squeeze out of this, this particular service line, the more money goes into that bonus pool, for example.

And then I think as you.

But we do know that the bookkeeping is what actually leads us to higher level advisory services which have a higher margin, higher level of profitability on them.

So maybe it's not necessarily the profitability of the client, but certainly the profitability of the.

And then I think also connecting and most accountants, bookkeepers, administrators will join the dots to say that if we make more profit then there's more opportunity for bonus, for raises, for activities in the office and that type of thing.

So I think most people are smart enough to connect those dots.

I would encourage practitioners to actually think, or firm owners to think about how they craft bonuses for their team and incorporate that idea of profitability.

And if we can do the job cheaper, then more money goes into the bonus pool and that type of thing.

But I think transparency is critical because to your point that if, if they don't know, if the team doesn't know that we're not making much money on, on the, on the bookkeeping services.

To your point exactly.

We've got to be laser focused on scope.

We can't be going and doing more things without, without under this current statement of work.

So I think that's a really important point.

I think it all does come down to trust.

And how much transparency you have in your firm generally will guide the level of transparency you have in your service offering.

But I think the team needs to know how you price your services and then what is the profitability of those services.

And we'll get into pricing in another couple of episodes, but I think that's important.

Okay,.

A little bit more on that.

Yeah, sure.

There's a little bit of human engineering and giving them that information.

And I only bring this up because we see this a lot because we're in so many different workflows that there's quite a few have I just had the conversation today with the client is like why haven't they done this work?

And I'm going, go look at your workflow.

And he goes, oh, okay, now I know why.

Could have done that before calling me anyways, but everything is on hold.

Why, why are these 10 clients on hold?

And I went, because we get end of day, I get an end to day report for every single client and I don't get like detailed minutiae.

It's just this is how many delays we have and why the delay.

The delay is always, we're missing information.

So but you know, if you see month after month the same client, delay, delay, delay, that really messes with the, the standardization part of being able to make a cast practice grow.

Because now you've got, you've set this flow up and we get, it's like, okay, we need everything done by the 10th of the month because we're going to start our meetings with the clients and we schedule them by the 12th of the month and feel like, okay, great, but what if half that client group isn't done by the 10th of the month?

What does that then do down the line to the clients who are cooperating and does that drag?

So, I mean, I think there's getting your team to bring to you notice that hey, this client is not a good client and we're never going to get anywhere with them.

Fish and cut bait, you know, Scott, get rid of it.

And your team can be incredible.

Especially in a cast business where it's very relational, extremely relational.

You need to have that.

The team that's going to tell you that and they're going to tell you that if you explain to them, look at those 10 people are dragging the rest of us down.

It's a stressor to think about it.

It's shitty.

Sorry to look at it.

And your workflow all the time, it's not conducive to a happy environment.

And a happy environment does make for an easier job.

And it screws the profitability, without a doubt.

And it screws the profitability of that service.

And it screws the profitability of that service.

But also it inhibits our ability to move up the value chain because we're not getting to the conversations.

So why bother that I didn't bring you in, I didn't bring you in to send you to just do accounting and I mean bookkeeping that was supposed to lead to something else.

And if it's not going to lead to something else, then bye.

I think it's easy for going back to some of the things we talked about in the team is the team needs to know the Impact of waiting on client.

Because it's very easy for some team members just to be waiting on client, waiting on client and just work their way through and then be like, all done.

But because I'm waiting on the client, so sorry, nothing to do with me.

But actually the team really needs to be engaged in this process.

Yeah, not my fault.

But actually the team needs to be bringing this to either the, the project manager, the account manager's attention so it can be dealt with.

Because I think, I think if things are caught early, clients can be retrained, clients can be, it can be nipped in the bud, so to speak.

But I do think that if it goes on and on and on, then it's very difficult to, to, to get our clients back on track.

And, and there's that that relationship has, has sort of deteriorated already.

So I think it's really important that the team understands the profitability of a service, understands what drives down the profitability of service, such as delays, such as statement of scope, creep, et cetera, et cetera.

So that's a really important part of it.

And not to say I've, I've brought it to the client, bought it to the partner's attention, the account manager's attention.

Therefore, we've got to fire the client.

No, not at all.

It's just about making sure that you're communicating openly with the team so that that account manager can take those next steps of either retraining the client, calling the client, or this is the goal.

You wanted when you came to us.

And we can't give you a goal if you don't.

And one of the things that we do, and you know, not everybody that we recommend this to thinks it's a good idea, but some people do, is separating out missing a source document versus a missing information.

So there are different.

You can create as many status as you want and these wonderful apps that have workflow in them, it's wonderful.

But a missing.

For us, it's like missing information is we literally need a document to verify this or we can't move forward.

Then there's.

We have a question, and sometimes the question has to go right to the client and, and sometimes the question has to go right to the account manager.

But not giving us a document and on not missing answering questions, I like to know which is which, because maybe they're not answering the questions because they're not a person that reads email and that's the way you're contacting them.

And so maybe as account manager, I would call the client up and go, look, you haven't been answering our questions.

Is there another methodology that you would be comfortable with us to send you these questions?

Because you just gave me the answers and.

Oh, you prefer text.

Okay, we have an app that will do that.

So let's start using that.

Or, you know, just.

Just so that again, you know what it is that the issue is before you contact the client and you can focus in on missing documentation, that's another conversation.

Can you just, you know, give us access to this so we can go get it ourselves so we don't have pain.

We're not giving you a pain in the neck call all the time.

Sure.

If you're comfortable with us doing the work, you're comfortable with us going to get the statement ourselves.

So know, you have to know the reason that there is a delay.

And those are the two main delays that we see.

And so we like to have them separated because we like to know if this person's not answering a question.

But we've got all the statements and everything.

There's something else going on.

So just.

That's the thing, is spending some time with the client to make sure what is the best way to communicate with me.

Documenting that in the.

We use Whale at Moneypenny to document all of this information so that it's in this one spot.

I think then you've just got to be careful of and make sure that you're using them correctly and that sometimes, you know, we have.

You and I, Penny, have this conversation like, where did you send that to me?

Did you send it to me on WhatsApp Teams or Slack or email?

Where was it?

So we have document in our.

In our process.

How does this client like to be communicated with?

So it's in the process.

And, you know, that came about two ways.

One, working with Mark Albrecht and Barry McQuarrie, because they would do it.

They were doing that with Xen years ago, but when I was teaching kids, and hopefully my children will never hear this because they probably would be pissed, but my son is dyslexic and getting him to read his letters was somewhat difficult, but he was very tactile.

He's a flight mechanic, so he likes working with his hands and stuff.

I worked in special ed, and so I went out and I got these cardboard letters that actually they had glitter on them.

So they had A, B, C. This was when he was like 2 and 3 years old.

A, B, C, D. And he would rub him on his face and that's how he learned his letters.

Wow.

That Was the input he got.

Everybody learns differently, and so everybody hears differently and everybody communicates a little bit differently.

Like, I was just walking the dogs this morning and ran into somebody I know, and they go, oh, didn't you see that on Facebook When I asked her a question, I go, yeah, I don't do that.

Can you send it to me in a different way?

Well, I think.

But I think that's important as well, because I think for the.

For the.

And this could be overgeneralization, without a doubt, but accountants are very.

A style of person in terms of how they learn, how they have learned.

Whereas actually a lot of business owners that are the entrepreneurs that are doing things with their hands, et cetera, learning very differently.

So I think that's a good point.

You know, I.

What's this graphic made?

Okay, so I. I can't type.

It always comes out all messed up.

In fact, when my mother was trying to teach me how to type on a Smith Corona because I was writing my first term paper my sophomore year in high school, and she was trying to teach me how to type it, and she goes, you know, she had taught.

She typed like crazy.

The.

The school, the Catholic school we went to used her a lot for that.

Having her type up stuff, their newsletters and stuff.

And all of us learned how to type because my mother said, you always have to have a backup plan.

And she looked at me and she goes, well, you're going to be pretty worthless.

You might as well just get married and have kids.

Well, I didn't think that was going to be answered.

Flip and type.

I still have to do it one way and then look at the keyboard.

Yeah, I suck at it.

Okay, let's move on to another question that we got from a listener.

This was around vertical specialization in industry niches, or niches, rather.

What are your thoughts on verticalization as a part of the client selection strategy?

Is it risky?

Or what are the pros and cons?

And is that part of our client selection criteria?

I always believed in it and have always, going back 30 years, said, you should verticalize.

Verticalize.

David Leary, quite a few years ago, ran a small session at a conference where he promoted verticalization and brought in accountants who were verticalizing their businesses and becoming the expert in their field.

And I think verticalization is a good thing.

One thing people.

And I noticed one of the questions that they said, they worry about having their eggs in one basket.

I get that.

But you don't have it in one client.

You're becoming an expert.

And here now it's so much easier because you can get a tech stack and be very, very good at a tech stack, that focus.

So the one that David used was a guy who does breweries.

That's all of his clients, they're all breweries.

So he became good at drinking beer, I'm sure, but also at the technology that they were using to run their business and at the technology that they used that integrated to the accounting package.

And he wasn't limited by his locale because of the Internet.

And he could go then to shows, trade shows and.

And conferences where brewers go.

Right.

So he could pick up clients that way.

And so then he became the specialist in the field that if you become the specialist in a field and you pick the wrong field, then you weren't paying attention to the data that's in front of you before you picked.

Okay.

So like, I'm probably not going to go into a basket maker.

Right.

You know, because, you know, they're just not gonna.

But a brewery is a good option because that's a hot ticket right now.

Then the next thing is, once you get that team and that flow built on that vertical, with that vertical stack of tech, because you're gonna have a specific standard tech, you're not gonna be going to scaling new heights or Intuit Connect or 0con and DCPA and looking at all these little different vendors.

You're going to be looking at the vendors that deal with your vertical.

It's going to kind of like focus your mind.

Once you get that done, it's easy to duplicate it with another vertical because the process is already done.

Yeah.

In your basket.

But you don't do that until you get this leveled off and until it's running smoothly and until you get all the kinks out.

I know one, one firm out of Atlanta, they were big in construction.

I can't remember the.

The year that it actually happened, but basically the ass fell out of Georgia.

And I think in terms of construction, whatever.

So his.

His practice was decimated as a lot of his clients went out of business.

And.

And I think to his credit, he built himself back up again.

But.

But as a result of knowing the fact of this is how I did it.

So whether it's construction or whether it's restaurants or whether it's dental practices, he was able to repeat the playbook that he had created for instruction.

Playbook's the same regardless of the vertical.

Right.

And as I said, there was just one, as I said, restaurants.

There was another firm that I worked with here in Australia and They were big in restaurants in, in Australia and we had very, very intense lockdown rules over Covid.

So again, that practice got.

Got sort of decimated.

But because she had the playbook, she was then able to, she was actually able to help those, those restaurants pivot quite quickly into.

To go into pre packaged meals into.

She turned one of the bars into a distillery.

So, so it was really interesting in terms of how she was able to help them pivot.

Yeah.

And it turned into a great distillery business and now it's got the restaurant back to the restaurant as well, now that we're sort of out of that period.

But it just goes to show that I think as a result of the specialization, it did allow her to think creatively about how to pivot.

Whereas I think if you were just the generalist, you would probably be like, oh, we could do like.

I don't think you would have the same deep knowledge of the industry that you could really add value to help them get out of, get out of an economic crisis.

And I think when I saw that question come in, I was wondering, have they had the experience of having a huge super large client that was the largest percentage of their income and, and then losing that client?

That's not what we're talking about when it means vertical.

You know, you would have people at all levels in the restaurant business.

You could have people.

Well, maybe not all.

I think that there is some industries, restaurants being one where there are probably a different approaches for different types of.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Fast casual versus what?

Yeah, high end.

I worked with a firm in Maryland where they just did high end restaurants and became very, very good at it.

And that's a different format and a different way of approaching it than say I'm going to become the accountant for say, franchises.

I have a friend who owns, who runs all the franchises for Cold Stones in the Southwest.

You know, I mean that, that's a totally different, different format that in dealing with that than say, high end restaurants.

Yeah.

So I mean, you get divert and, and I.

What about.

There was a client, there was an accountant that I worked with in New Jersey.

They know what their vertical was.

They spoke Portuguese.

Yeah, yeah.

And all their clients were Portuguese.

So like I was talking to one in, where I had a house in San Diego and one of the girls that went to school with my youngest daughter, her mother approached me, she goes, does anybody do this for Spanish speaking businesses?

And I said, well, we could, if we could write the book in Spanish, but I don't know enough Spanish to write it.

And I was still writing QuickBooks training books back then.

I gave it to her and you know what she did?

Wrote it in Spanish.

She wrote it in Spanish.

And then you know what she did?

She went to all those little bodegas in the area and started a little bit.

Yeah, I think.

And you've got a client that you've worked with a long time in California with dental practices.

I remember working with a firm, they're out of Colorado and same thing.

They, they focused on dental practices.

He, he fell into that by mistake basically.

One of his mates was a dentist.

He was doing the accounting and tax for them, doing some really interesting things.

As a result of the type of technology he was using, the dentist invited him to the, the local chapter meeting of the Boulder Dental Society or whatever just to sort of share what, what they're doing.

And now he sort of travels.

What's that interstate between Canada and Mexico that goes through Denver I25.

It's right there.

Okay.

So if there's any dental practices, if there's any dental practices within a five mile radius of that penny, that's his strategy.

And I think that one of the really important lessons that he learned was that as a result of this verticalization, it has really clarified who he says no to because it's basically everyone else.

Whereas previously he would take my clients.

I have a friend who specializes in that because when you get to verticals you start meeting other people who have other verticals.

I know somebody who does photography.

Right.

And that's all she does is deal with photographers and anybody else that comes to her, she goes, you know what, I know somebody who can do that.

And yeah, you just.

And then you're getting, believe me, they're going to send you every photographer they know.

The other guy, you know, it's.

Yeah.

Actually, I don't think it's quite as dangerous as, certainly not as dangerous as having one client who is the majority of your business.

That's dangerous.

And again, you go back to sort of profitability of services and profitability of clients and profitability of this service with our vertical of dental practices is X.

Profitability of the same service, but with industry general is why you can very quickly help the team understand this is why we do dental practices or this is why we do photographers or this is why we specialize.

Just because it does be a marketing cost.

Right?

Yeah.

And for your educational training costs.

So a lot of these other Overhead things that you have to deal with, they get very focused and running your business becomes easier because we all don't want to spend 48 hours a day running a business, you know, want to go have.

Let's move on to talking to our clients about the value that we can provide and how do we.

We've identified this client, it's in our vertical, it's they're a nice client etc, but they don't necessarily see the value of that year round.

They don't see the value of our boss or CAS services.

What's the best way in which you can help them better understand what's in it for me that we FM that because they're struggling with this idea of moving from quarterly, annual, inter monthly work.

How do you better communicate the value you can provide?

Well, I think that let's go back to verticals again.

If you have a clear understanding of a vertical, you are going to know what the typical common issues are that may be a more generalized accounting company would not know.

So you can do the proverbial thing that of imparting fear to them, which is not a great way of doing it, but they're great, it works.

But also it allows you to start maybe having a more intimate conversation with them where you can learn not just the concerns of their, their industry but of them personally themselves.

And I think, I think when you give you bring a little bit of personalization to it.

They're much more open to explaining the true reason on why they even need accounting.

Like there are some people who are like I was talking to this lady the other day who's going to be signing up with us.

And she goes, you know, I've got.

Because I said, okay, do you have clients that get in the books?

Because you know, you, I go, you approach that differently.

She goes, oh definitely.

Those clients, you, they're him.

She goes, I've got clients.

You handle them with kick gloss.

I mean they're in their books.

They would, they're talking back and forth with you all the time.

They're really communicating.

She goes, and then you've got the clients who they show up once a year, you know, so you knock, you have much harder time developing that intimate relationship with them.

So but if somebody comes to you and they're in pain, find out what the pain is and go for the pain.

And I think also you, you go back to what it is that you want to do.

What are the services that you want to provide?

How do you want to help your clients?

Go back to that Those four quadrants of strategist, controller, steward and catalyst.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think that's part of how do you communicate the value it's associated with, what it is that you're actually providing them with.

Is it helping them transition between generations?

Is it helping them grow?

Is it helping them expand?

I think fear and, fear and, or greed, I think is a great place to start.

But connect that with why you're doing this and what you're in business for, and that should help alleviate that.

We can't actually get into the fun stuff.

We can't get into the good stuff unless we have control of the books, unless we have control of these numbers, unless this information is flowing into the system in a timely and clean manner.

All of this other analysis and advisory, it doesn't make any sense because we can't trust the numbers.

Yeah, you can't trust.

Yeah.

And when you can't trust the numbers, then you don't feel comfortable going into the meeting with the client.

And then therefore, you never do it.

And therefore cast goes right out the window and you're back to an old style accounting company again.

Have you had, you know, AI is everywhere.

Have you had any of your clients coming to you to sort of say, well, come on, Penny, AI is doing more and more of this, so shouldn't the fees be coming down?

Are you seeing any of that yet?

No.

No.

In fact, the conversation this morning when I brought up AI to a client, we both cracked up laughing.

Yeah, so far it just, what it, what it's causing, at least at the low level, this is what we were talking about at the, at the lower level of allocation.

He goes, you know, I just, I just, I had a client, really good friend, I had been working on their books and I just, every once in a while I got to get in there and look at qbo.

And he goes, to tell you the truth, my eyes hurt.

I was.

He goes, you have to look at it.

I said, I know.

I went through with the client myself, who I hadn't touched in probably six months of QBO file.

And I went and I went, you have to look at every single cell.

You have to look.

You can't, you can't just assume that bought note knows what to categorize it.

And do you categorize it?

Do you match it?

Do you post it?

It actually has.

It's changing the dynamics, but it's not changing the time.

It's just changing dynamics and forcing you.

I'll tell you what, it's forcing you to be More critical thinker.

And so somebody.

I think it's also, I think it's also this attention to detail.

I think where previous previously you could set a rule that said ARCO was, was fuel or gas or, or transport or whatever.

Whereas now because AI is learning and the rule doesn't necessarily think any eyes warning.

I'm sorry, I think AI is sorting the database and going to the house because I'm looking at it going, wait a minute, just two goddamn weeks ago.

I know, I posted it for this.

Why is it choosing?

Well, I know.

Well, because I'd set the rule previously, but now all of a sudden it's gone all over the place because it's, it's the agent nature of a huge.

Database of other people who are not okay.

Because we all know all small business owners, which, you know, a small business owner by the United States is 500 or less employees.

So all small business owners run their companies the same way and they allocate the same way and they spend their money the same way.

No, no, they don't.

So yeah, it's, it's actually I'm finding it to be more helpful at a higher level as a research module.

But again it all that you, you have to know how to critically ask the question.

You have to know exactly what it is that you are looking for.

It's not a needle in a haystack.

So just.

Yeah, I find it better at the higher level.

And I would say that yes, your clients, some of your clients might come to you to say, well, hang on, why are you charging me this?

Because this product says that I can do it automatically and automagically.

I have different substance.

Sorry.

I have the answer for that.

And it's worked every time.

Okay, we'll do it your way.

Don't ever call me.

I'll do it cheaper.

But you don't get to call me.

You don't get to call me.

So you're not getting rid of them, you're just.

Yeah, you want that?

Go right ahead.

Because I was like, I was getting rid of a lot of clients because I'm hoping someday to retire at my old age.

And just I.

One of them, she called me, she goes, can't you just tell them how easy it is to take care of my business for me?

And I said, well finita, I've been doing your business for like taking care of your business since even before you bought it, the prior owner, right?

So I know your business real easy.

I said, but how many times a year?

Just in the last Year.

Have you called me and been on the phone with me for an hour or so?

She goes, yeah, about four or five times.

I went, I get it now.

I said, yeah, that's what you're paying for.

You're paying for my expertise in this area, not in my expertise and allocation and reconciliation and sending off the finals to your tax accountant.

Any goddamn monkey can do that.

I think it's interesting though, it goes back to this idea of being really helping clients understand exactly what it is that you do.

And that conversation of like, okay, here's everything that we're doing in your books every single month.

Which of this don't you want us to do?

Which of this do you think AI can do?

Happy to have the conversation, et cetera, et cetera.

And I think as well, because obviously your clients and the small businesses generally are getting hit left, right and center with different messages about the power of AI and whatnot.

But I think I, I think they're going to come to you.

I think they're going to probably have that perception that prices should be coming down because of AI.

And so I think it is important to have.

What is your response?

How do you educate them?

How do you have them come along the journey to say, yes, we are using AI to do, to do these certain parts of the, the equation which frees us up to do more of X, Y and Z.

So look, I wouldn't be surprised if you're going to get more and more questions.

So just be ready for it and help educate the clients that what QuickBooks is telling you and what Xero is telling you is the small business and what's actually happening in reality.

And it could be Microsoft, it could be whoever.

The reality of AI is not quite where the marketing, the messaging would have you believe.

That's been the case of all marketing schemes since Adam talked to he.

Last question.

Okay, so now this one's probably really close to you and talking about clients and what's your take on using offshore teams for data entry like those firms in Philadelphia and Dallas that we talked, we spoke to?

We're thinking about it, but we're worried about quality control and client perception.

And this will probably be the last question to round out this episode of how do we talk to our clients about how we get the work done?

Well, I'm always open with my clients about it.

But you know, most people, depends.

I'm sorry, I'm going to say this.

It depends on part of the country you're in.

How I know it's what type of business.

Also depends what type of business you're in as well.

If you're, if you're a global business that's sourcing products and whatnot, then you're.

Probably okay with it as far as quality goes.

That's a tough one because I don't want to diss anybody and Nobody's perfect.

In 30 years of working in India, Malaysia, South Africa, quality control is contingent partially on the initial training of the people that you hire over offshore and also in the communication that you do with them.

You have to be as communicative with them as you would any staff member, let them know what the goal is.

But also on the other side of it is how does that offshore office treat their employees.

I saw lots of turnovers, lots of once we get you, you know, they consider themselves stuck and they can do whatever and they could put anybody in that seat and they think that anybody can do this job because what the hell, it's just accounting.

This is a tough one for me because I am an outsourcer and I don't want to.

I just do things a little differently.

I'm not huge and for a reason.

So I have to treat my employees, I believe and my outsourcing employees as equally well as I treat my US employees and with the same kind of communication and transparency.

You know, I think you've been a lot.

I feel bad, I just.

You can see how uncomfortable I am right now.

Well, I would sort of say I.

Have some really deep thoughts about it, but I don't think that I should be doing this.

But I think that, I think there's to your point of if you're going to be successful with outsourcing, you need.

I think one of the key things is that communication that you treat your outsourcing partner as one of your team members.

And I've seen, I've seen firms who buy the team in India gifts and help the local cricket team and all this type of stuff.

And I've seen firms treat the outsourcing as second class citizens.

And so I think that's what's really important is the why we're doing it, what it enables us to do that's really critical.

And if your team's not on board with it, if your team hasn't bought into it, if your team doesn't Understand the why?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you don't have buy in from all of your team more than your clients, if you don't have buy in from your local based team, whether they're virtual to you in the United States or not, you don't do it.

Just don't make sure that everybody is comfortable with this, who's going to be communicating with them.

And here's the other thing too, is make sure that the outsourcer is the same way, that they're transparent with you, that they're communicating with you, and that they're honest and open with you.

I think that's a really good place to end today's episode.

Obviously, if you do have questions about outsourcing and how the good, the best practices from setup and process, please do get in, get in touch.

As Penny mentioned, she's got years of experience of helping firms in Malaysia, the Philippines, India.

So there's a wealth of knowledge there beyond obviously the outsourcing that Moneypenny does.

So hit us up if you do have any questions on that.

Penny, I think this has been a really interesting conversation.

I loved how listeners have been getting questions into us Clients are critical to your success in cas.

And I think just as we're being intentional about the types of services we're providing the team we're building, we also need to be very intentional about the types of clients that we're serving.

And when I say types of clients, it's everything from the businesses that they're in to the actual what are they like?

What are their personalities like?

Are they good people?

Are they nice people?

Are they good to work with?

So really critical part of being successful with CAS is those types of clients that you work with.

Any final thoughts from you, Penny?

No, I think I've said enough,.

Folks.

If you've enjoyed today's episode, please please like and share on your platform.

Please help us get the word out about the podcast.

It's not just the numbers helping firms build that CAS capability because it is very different traditional tax and audit firm and we've, we've learned a lot of lessons along the way.

So hopefully you've picked up one or two tips from today's episode.

If you do have questions that you'd like us to answer, as we've done on today's episode, please don't hesitate to connect with us and reach out to us on LinkedIn.

Penny Breslin, Damien Greathead.

We're pretty easy to find.

I don't think there's, there's, there's another Damien Grated.

And I don't think there's another Penny Breslin on LinkedIn either.

So hit us up, connect with us, and shoot your questions over.

But Penny, always a pleasure.

Look forward to our next episode.