Opening a Physical Store - with Sarah Birchall, Cub and Pudding

Artwork for podcast Bring Your Product Idea to Life

Episode 245 • 6th December 2024 • Bring Your Product Idea to Life • Vicki Weinberg

Vicki Weinberg: 00:00:40

Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea To Life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products or if you'd like to create your own product to sell.

I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses. Let's get started. Hello.

So today on the podcast I'm speaking to Sarah Birchill from Cub and Pudding. Sarah designs colourful, fun clothing with the aim of bringing a drop of cheer to people's wardrobes.

We had a really great conversation about how and why Sarah started Cub and Pudding.

She actually doesn't come from a fashion or retail background and I found that so interesting about how she pivoted from designing and manufacturing children's clothes to adults clothes, why she did that and all of that that involved. And also excitingly, we spoke about the fact that Sarah has just opened her first standalone shop. So not a pop up.

She actually has a lease on a physical shop which is opening. Well, it's open now.

It's not open as I record this, but by the time you listen it will be open and I will actually record a follow up episode with Sara all about what it means to have a shop and get that set up. But we'll give her a little bit of time to get settled in before we do that.

But in the meantime, there is still plenty to cover in this episode and as always, I really hope you enjoy it and I can't wait now to introduce you to Seth. Hi. Thank you so much for being here.

Sarah Birchall: 00:02:16

Thanks for having me. Oh, you're a little while. And thanks for the having me here and reminding me because it's the last few months have kind of gone a bit.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:02:25

Yeah. And I can't wait to talk about that, that and why things have been so busy for you.

But let's just start off with if you can please give an introduction to yourself, your business and what you sell.

Sarah Birchall: 00:02:35

Yeah, sure. My name is Sarah Sarah and I'm the founder of Cub and Pudding which is now an adult wear clothing brand.

So I design all the prints for all the designs myself. But I started as a unisex kids wear brand, hence the name is kind of a bit, kind of slightly kiddy, slightly kooky.

But yeah, that's, that's what I began as and then I kind of evolved to just selling adult wear.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:03:05

Oh, amazing. So I would love to find out actually about how and why you change from children's to adult clothing.

But let's start right at the Beginning first, if that's okay. So when, why when and why did you start Cub and Pudding Let's start there.

Sarah Birchall: 00:03:19

Yeah. So I had been, I was still working at a bank, so I was the PA to the CEO of a bank in the city. So very different life, very corporate.

I live in London and I'd gone back after my second child, who Pudding is referring to her after maternity leave. And I had just felt that slump of oh my God, am I actually going to be here until I retire?

And it just started to become more and more of this kind of weight on my shoulders. The job itself was fine. I worked at, everyone there was lovely. And it wasn't because I was miserable there. I just felt really, really unfulfilled.

I can kind of do the job with my eyes closed, which now in hindsight sometimes I think, oh my gosh, that would be amazing to be able to have such a stress free life. But yeah, I just felt so unfulfilled.

And also importantly, there was just no aspect of creativity in my life like going back before that a while before I'd had kids, I had been a features writer and magazine and long story, being made redundant. So I ended up at a bank on maternity contract and 10 years later I was still there.

So I never intended to in this kind of corporate world so long, but it was just easy to be there. It was a nice job and to be honest, it was really well paid.

After being in such creative industry for a while, I was able to do things I could never afford to do when I was there. And then I went to. I actually ended up at a.

I went with one of my fellow PAs to a talk one day and I know Holly Tucker was there and Steph from Don't Buy Me Flowers and it was just, just to talk about, you know, women's careers and kind of trying to inspire us. And in the goodie bag that day when we went home was a card of a life coach.

And it just, I remember sitting here literally behind me and getting this card out and was just like, maybe, maybe I should just email. And I just sent this lady an email and just essentially said, I just feel really, really lost.

I don't know what I want to do with my career, my life, but I need some direction. I need someone to help me find a path that I'm going to be happy with and feel fulfilled with. Yeah.

And long, long story, we met up and she happens to be quite local and got really well with her and we did that classic thing of kind of putting everything down on paper, just brain dumping all the things that you're passionate about, all the things that you know in your whole life, down to relationships, love, friendship, money, and then the things that do excite you. And from there we kind of narrowed down that what I really, really got enjoyment out of was.

Sounds a bit sort of silly now was dressing my kids in really cool clothes.

And I had got to the point where I was finding it hard to find good clothes for my son who was at that point about five, that were really just fun and quirky and didn't fall into that stereotype for boys where it was just diggers and dinosaurs and brown and beige. And I kind of just always decided that why don't I just try and design some things for him myself. I have no design background. I have no.

I wasn't arty at school or anything. And I do remember Caroline, my coach at times. You don't have to do the prints yourself. You can, you can kind of delegate that out.

But I really, really felt for me, I think because that creative element was missing in my life. I really felt like I needed to do that. I needed.

It wasn't just about some designing clothes or working with someone and giving them ideas and then doing the patterns. I really needed it to come all from me, for me to feel that kind of sense of self satisfaction. And yeah, it just kind of spiraled from there.

I stayed working. I was still working at the bank.

So yeah, eventually found a factory and just started company while I was at the bank and just running it simultaneously. Very, very small. Very, very, you know, all my customers at the beginning were just friends.

And yeah, within that was: 2019

January: 2020

It wasn't necessarily even I was doing that well. I just was enjoying it and I just thought actually life's too short. My boss had left my 10 years boss and I got a new boss. Didn't really. He was fine.

But I wasn't willing to kind of start a whole new relationship there because when you work as a PA it's quite, you know, quite important one to one. And I just kind of decided on three months notice and just quit essentially.

Which yeah was luckily with the support of my husband who didn't Kind of tell me, what on earth are you doing? Because I was kind of the bigger breadwinner in the house at that point. You know, corporate pays quite well. So, yeah, I just thought and quit.

And then here we are.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:08:20

Wow, that's amazing. About such a lot. I'm trying to think when.

Sarah Birchall: 00:08:24

Yeah, sorry, that's so condensed what I.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:08:28

s podcast actually started in: 2020

So you just quit your corporate job to do cup and pudding full time, and then obviously the pandemic came, like, a few months later. Did that change anything about your business or. Yeah. What was that like?

Sarah Birchall: 00:08:54

It was, I think, because I was kind of naive, and I hadn't been running a business that long, so I think my expectations were really low. So I remember a benchmark figure in my head at the beginning that I needed to make per month to kind of pay bills and things.

And when I look back now, you know, that was. It was a very low amount. So I kind of was almost like a little bit naive, like, oh, it should be fine.

And actually, I think depending on your business. And I think, you know, I had friends, a lot of small business friends as well, at that point.

It didn't go too badly because I think a lot of people were stuck at home being paid and not necessarily working, depending what their jobs were. I had a few friends doing that because they couldn't go into the office. They were still being paid.

And I think it was almost a good time for people to just shop. And because of the clothes I was designing. That was exactly when it happened, when the kind of spin to starting adult wear happened.

At that point, when people started saying, actually, I'd really like some of those clothes. For me, I'm working at home. I kind of want to look smartish, but also be comfy on all of these Zoom meetings that I'm having.

So it worked out fairly well. I definitely. I started growing from there. I mean, it wasn't, you know, by any means, any kind of overnight success.

And I suddenly, I was raking all the money, but it started building, going in the right direction. So it was enough to keep me positive and focused, where I didn't think, oh, my God, you know, what have I done?

And I think I was just so full of kind of enthusiasm for working for myself after all those years and not being in that corporate environment and having the freedom that I was. Yeah, again, probably Naive and full of energy to just do everything that I possibly could to grow at that point.

And so, yeah, it didn't impact me negatively. I think it probably. Who would. Who knows if it would have been different.

I think probably a lot of us maybe think we don't know what life would have looked like if. If there hadn't been a pandemic.

I'm not sure it might be better or worse, but people stuck at home still money to burn the saving money by not going out, not going on holiday. It actually wasn't bad at all for me. So maybe after all.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:11:02

Oh, that's really good to hear. And you know, I think you're right, that one thing that.

Well, maybe I'm only speaking to myself, but I'm sure that one thing that people always spend money on, if they have it, is their kids.

Sarah Birchall: 00:11:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were definitely. There was that element.

But I think it then became a little bit more like, I want some of that for me and actually I spend by the buy that for me than my kids. And, you know, we'll maybe talk about this in a bit.

But it did get harder for me with the kids wear because I think it's such more volumes and it's expensive where understandably a lot of people don't want to spend money on children's wear over a certain price point. And it got harder for me to push that and market that much as, you know, that's where my heart was and that's where it all started.

So when I did eventually let go of that, it was quite bittersweet.

But, yeah, I just realized that financially it didn't make as much sense, sadly for me to keep pushing that so hard when I could see the adult wear growing and the request coming in for that and the enthusiasm for that growing and it was just, yeah, sadly, you know, something has to let go of eventually. But yeah, I'm glad it started that way.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:12:12

Yeah. And we'll definitely talk about that a bit more. But one initial question I have is did you find that an impact of the pandemic?

Did things get more expensive? I guess is what I'm.

Is what I'm wondering because you mentioned about the cost of, you know, and you're right, because I will spend more close to myself on my kids as much as I spent a lot of money on my kids. It always feels like with clothes, you know, they're going to be in them so long and I totally get that.

So was there a cost impact during the pandemic?

Sarah Birchall: 00:12:38

Well, I didn't notice it straight away, to be honest. I feel like it's been kind of incremental. So it didn't. I didn't feel like it. It happened overnight.

I think it then came as a result, you know, a year later, people are catching up with themselves and people are trying to recover from that period, depending on who they were. The factories, for example. Yeah, I work with in Portugal, you know, they had had to shut. So I don't think I noticed any cost impact initially.

t was a slow burn. I think by: 2021

And I think because none of us knew how long this pandemic was in the last. Is this going to be a one month thing?

And I think it all was a little bit at the beginning, this sort of naive and obviously people worried about COVID what more is happening, people dying. So I think it was a sort of weird whirlwind, wasn't it? Maybe for the first six months or so, until we realized, okay, this might be.

We might be in this for longer than we thought.

So I think it was just a case of everyone's kept going as much as they can initially and then, yeah, the knock on effect happened a bit later where people were trying to recover from spells where they'd have to shut longer than they anticipated.

Perhaps all the sales for people really dropped off a cliff and they had to make up for it by putting their own costs up, which then obviously had that domino effect for other people.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:04

Sadly, looking back, there was a lot going on, wasn't there?

Sarah Birchall: 00:14:08

A lot. And then homeschooling, obviously, you know, let's. I put that it's, you know, post traumatic stress for all of that.

I try not to think about that because that was. That was on top of everything. Having both kids at home as well, which so many of us went through, was pretty painful.

And my husband works for himself as well. So we were both trying to work from here with the kids.

Yeah, I think you just sometimes when you're in a thicket, you just get on with it and then it's only when you look back and reflect that you kind of go, oh my gosh, that was kind of crazy, wasn't it? But yeah, I think you just are proactive and just have to do what you have to do.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:42

Yeah, definitely. And I think you're right. It's only when you look back and you just. And you just can't almost believe that we all. And.

Yeah, well, we won't, we won't dwell on that.

Sarah Birchall: 00:14:51

No, no, no, exactly.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:14:54

So I'm going to talk more. I'd love to talk more about pivoting from children's clothes to adults because I do find that fascinating. But before we go there, I really interested.

So you mentioned that you wanted to be involved in the design because that was something, you know, you wanted to express your creativity but you had no design experience. So how, how did you. Yeah, I guess the basic question is how did you do it?

How did you manage to design such beautiful prints without having any design experience?

Sarah Birchall: 00:15:23

So I initially, I enrolled on a. It's a London college of passion. We did a course remotely over a few weekends where it was learning the basics of fashion manufacturing.

So just understanding what a tech pack is and just trying to grasp some sort of understanding there. And then I also did another little course of an evening over a few weeks where it was designing children's wear. But it was a little.

It was more about pattern making and being creative there. But it gave me some ideas of how people work and I think because I had certain brands that I loved for the children that I kind of was inspired by.

So I knew, I knew what kind of print and pattern I would be making myself. And I have quite a naive style. It's not very detailed and delicate designs in terms of very intricate drawing which I wouldn't be capable of at all.

I just don't have the skills because I knew it would be fairly naive and fun and kind of, yeah, quite playful. I just kind of went in and just bought paints and pens and charcoals and books and just started mucking around basically.

And I think I had the luxury luckily because I was in a full time job when this all started happening behind the scenes. A huge luxury for me was I wasn't up against any deadline.

It wasn't like, oh my gosh, you know, I have to open the business tomorrow, this has to be ready. I was doing this all evenings and weekends and on the slide at work. So I was kind of gradually trying to acquire all this knowledge and skills from.

I used to go to the British Library quite a lot actually, which I love. And they've got an amazing kind of business center there and archiving.

You can go and like research papers where they kind of give you ideas on fashion trends and market research. And so I just, I spent time there, essentially just tried to inhale as much knowledge and inspiration as I could get. I'm lucky that I live in London.

I've got a wealth of kind of museums and archives and things here. And there was, I forgot the name.

I've actually just thought now there was a great place in London and they do kind of very short two hour things in the evening and I would go there after work where it'd be like, you know, how to look, use Adobe Illustrator for drawing because I knew obviously I would need some grasp of drawing on screen as well. So I just was doing little bits and bobs like that and those two hour courses was kind of like 25 pounds here, 30 pounds there.

So it didn't feel like I was having to go and, you know, join a huge masters at university and spend three years of my life and lots and lots of thousands of pounds. So again, I was probably just very naive about what I could do and just enthusiastic.

I was just really, really hungry to do, to do it and to be creative and sort of release myself in this really, really corporate world. So yeah, it was just, I was just finding all these different ways to kind of learn essentially.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:18:19

No, that's great.

And do you know what, it doesn't sound to me like you and I at all because you were definitely proactively going out there and learning and researching and upskilling yourself where you needed to.

So I think it sounds like you were doing, you know, all of the, all of the things and so it sounds like you knew what you needed to learn and where you might, you know, need, you need more skills and more experience. So I think it sounds like a really good way of doing it.

And as you say, it was so nice that you had the luxury of not having to rush to do all of it as well.

Sarah Birchall: 00:18:51

That's a huge thing. You know, I was still being paid a solid job. It wasn't, you know, that I don't take that for granted at all.

That was really helpful and I worked decent hours. I wasn't ever stuck in the office, totally late, that kind of thing. So yeah, it was a nice way to do it.

I build it up slowly until I got to a point where I felt like I was ready to do it. Yeah, yeah, I was lucky.

I don't often think back to that point when you're this at this point in the business, yeah, it's quite nice to look back and think, oh, that was, that was nice.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:19:21

And was there anything that you did need to get help on? So you mentioned tech packs earlier and I do have some knowledge of what a tech pack is and to my eyes anyway, it Looks fairly complicated. Was.

Was that something you were able to do yourself or were you needing to get support on some of these things?

Sarah Birchall: 00:19:36

I did get support with those and by chance, one of my nursery mum friends. You know, it's funny how you don't actually talk about your jobs and she happens to work in sportswear.

We just got talking and so she would do my tech packs for me, which is brilliant.

I did pay her, obviously, but it just helped because then we would just meet in a cafe, I would kind of talk about the kind of thing I was trying to do and then she would turn it into a reality that the factory could actually be used to make a piece of clothing. So, yeah, I did. That was the one thing I did get help with. There's no way to do that.

And I don't actually work with tech packs anymore because I've been with my factory so long. But I think you'll find, yeah, a lot of factories don't really want to go near you at the beginning, necessarily, unless you've got that tech tax.

It kind of is, you know, shows an element of seriousness that you know what you're doing, you have an idea of what you want to do. So, yeah, she was a bit of godsend at the beginning.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:20:28

So for anyone who doesn't know what tech pack is, it just occurred to me not everyone will have heard the phrases, it's basically a document. And tell me if I describe this badly, that everything a manufacturer needs in order to take your design and make it into a product.

So it has the patterns, the designs, the fabric and a lot more detail than that. Is that a fair way of describing it?

Sarah Birchall: 00:20:51

No, it's a perfect way down to little, you know, the stitching, the type of stitching on the cuff and every single sort of measurement, essentially, that comes with the garment. So where exactly you're putting the depth of the collar and. Yeah, that's it.

Yes, it's every, you know, taking a piece of garment and unfolding, unraveling it and how to create that, you know, essentially. Yeah. And within that, you normally have it graded so you make a sample. For example, for the kids, I tended to do age two, just kind of mid range.

And then you get. That's also why I needed someone to help me with, actually.

You find somebody who is able to take that initial measurements for the age 2 and then grade it so that it goes either up or down, you know, down to baby size, all the way up to age 10.

And that's so that the factory can take every single measurement per size and has got that all graded specifically because obviously each bit moves up incrementally depending on the age. So that was the second thing. Yes. I needed someone to do for me which was grading and I found that they.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:21:54

That makes sense. I didn't think about that and that actually.

And I know we're jumping around a little bit, but when it comes to adult clothes, that must be really tricky. So grading for adult, I'm still, I'm.

Sarah Birchall: 00:22:05

Still adjusting my sizing all the time. Literally just this week we're just playing around again and I think. And that's. It's what, it's a good thing.

It's good to be flexible because feedback comes back and I do my very best to incorporate that because, you know, I don't want to feel like any item is excluded for someone that might have a different body shape. But it is really, really hard.

And I think anyone would know if you go to any one of five very well known high street brands and pick up a, for example, size 10 top for women, they are all like, you know, a T shirt, for example, they're all going to fit so differently. And I think there is, yeah, there's no standardization. There probably should be, but it is hard. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've learned to try and adapt and be as flexible as possible ongoing.

And you don't think you can be too rigid when it comes to adult sizing because yeah, the feedback, depending on how you want something to fit is it's good to incorporate that from customers and what they're saying.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:23:05

It is really hard though because as you say, even the bigger brands, you can even buy two pieces of clothing from the same large brand and they could have the same size on the label but it doesn't mean that they're going to fit you the same. And obviously everyone's body type and shape is so different.

I think like the whole industry, unless it's standardized somehow, I think this is just going to be something that's ongoing.

Sarah Birchall: 00:23:27

I think so. And I think it's just a case of, you know, making it easy for people to kind of. I've changed things.

Really concise swap, you know, that make it hard for them.

And again, taking feedback, if I'm hearing the same comment over and over about, for example, one of my dresses, the bust was just coming up too tight on the bigger sizes so I've added twice more width there. Yeah. And because obviously the cost of each item is very different, if something is more fitted, it's even harder.

So I tend to do looser clothes just by virtue of. That's what I prefer. And I think it's comfier. But I. Yeah, it's. It's really, really tricky. And definitely compare comparably.

Children's wear is so much easier for that. I barely got a couple of returns in my whole time with comforting. If that's never ever any returns, ever.

And then obviously that's probably the biggest downer for adult wear is just the returns because, you know, you just can't, or you can't get it right for every body shape. Much as I'd love to. We're all different shapes and sizes and we all have different wants and requirements.

I think it's not even as simple as, you know, with different shapes. It's just. Someone might love it being longer on their arms, someone might hate that. You know, it's just. It's really, really hard.

And then add in coloring and what suits someone's complexion and it's like, oh, gosh, it's really. It's really tricky. So, yeah, it's.

I think it's always going to be an issue trying to get the sizing within, but I think all you can do is offer as much guidance as possible. And I always want to do that. Like, please just get in contact.

And if someone says I'm a size 12 on the top and 16 on the bottom, I can kind of help give them advice, knowing my own products and what they can try. I think that's probably the only thing you can do is just, I think, to the brands.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:25:18

Yeah, I definitely think so.

And also I think there's always going to be a culture as well where there will always be people who will order things, try them on, send them back, you know, rather than go into a shop, that's. That's always going to be a thing as well, isn't it, that you might order.

I mean, there were definitely places, especially if I'm buying someone that I've never shopped from. I probably would buy two sizes because I'm sort of in between and wouldn't know which is right.

And I guess with a clothing brand there's always going to be part of that. But it's great when you were saying about the. How you can adapt what you do based on feedback. So do you still produce in quite small batches?

Is that how that's possible for you?

Sarah Birchall: 00:25:54

Exactly. That I produce in such small batches that I'm kind of reordering every couple of months or so. So when I go back for Reorder.

I can then say, actually when we do this, can we just adjust this? So I've got another batch of my pink and my black hopscotch dresses coming in. And yeah, I was able to say that. Can we just add in.

I was adding another size that I wasn't doing before because people have been asking for that. And that shift over the last couple of years is interesting for me too because I've seen different sizes become more popular. So for me, the.

I actually didn't used to sell many of the bigger sizes. The size large, extra large. I really didn't. It was always the sort of smaller sizes, hence I didn't have as many available.

And now I've seen a shift where extra small barely sells.

I'm not even bothering doing it with a couple of my products, but they're sort of 3XL site on top has become a lot more popular and I'm pleased about that because I was trying, I had to try and explain to only a couple of customers that because I produce such small batches, obviously If I have 10 sizes, there's no way my factory are going to let me know, you know, that they're like, it's not worth their while to make two size small. Two because, you know, across so many sizes.

So I had to make the decision if I, you know, producing such a small amount, I can only do five sizes at a max because it becomes too minimal per size that my factory won't let me do it. And because I didn't ever sell many of those bigger sizes, I was like, it just wasn't clever of me to put too much stock there.

So I had to make sure that I produced more of the small and medium. Medium has always been the popular one personally. But yeah, I've seen a shift for that recently, which is really interesting.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:38

That's really interesting.

Sarah Birchall: 00:27:39

Yeah, yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:27:41

And it sounds as well like your factory are really flexible, which is great.

Sarah Birchall: 00:27:46

, we were first in contact in: 2018

I visited them twice, which is really nice. It's run by two women and it's outside Porto, which is Sweden, in Portugal.

So, yeah, they've been really, I think, you know, it's just the legacy of working together and, you know, pay on time, that kind of thing. I think, you know, there's just a trust there that.

And in all honesty, there's been a couple of moments where I've had to go to them and say, you know, I'VE had a down spell with covenant pudding and I'd be like, I can't pay. I don't know how to do this. I've had an awful couple of months for sales. I'm freaking out.

And I've had something in production and they've been really, really kind to me.

And, you know, we worked out a plan where, you know, we just stagger the payment more or I've been able to push back reduction dates so that the cost is further ahead in the distance.

But I think it's just really key, just being honest with if you've got a good working relationship and just being really honest and open with them if you're having any kind of issues. I think we just learned to trust each other. So, yeah, I really value them, for sure.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:29:01

And how did you find them? So, again, because you had no experience in this industry, how did you manage to find such a great factory?

Sarah Birchall: 00:29:09

Yeah, that was one of the trickiest things because I found that other clothing brands, whether they be kids or adultwear, it seemed to me that most of them have been started by someone who was in that industry already and either quit or they come from that background. So they had that kind of little back of contacts and I didn't.

And I spent a lot of time, you know, contacting people abroad and in the UK and not really just not getting anywhere. People just didn't respond to me. A huge spreadsheet of, you know, all the people I contacted and followed up with and I just didn't hear from.

Obviously, I think because I'm a new brand, they don't know me and I only wanted small orders and, you know, I guess to a lot of people it doesn't look very appealing. And again, it was just a chance thing.

That Caroline, my coach, I was working with then she had another client who was doing sportswear and she said, oh, she's working with this factory in Portugal. Do you want me to just put you in contact? And I was like, oh, yeah, great. So she kindly shared her contact details.

And it just so happened that we work well together. And, yeah, ever since, although I now work with another factory as well, doing my knitwear. But, yeah, it's. I was just very.

I was very lucky that they kind of. They got me from the start and I think they were interested and excited to do work with me and do this kind of thing.

They kind of were doing slightly more traditional work, I think. Yeah, it was luck. It was luck. They could have been awful, but it was pure luck, thankfully.

And, yeah, I just clung on to them ever since, I guess luck.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:30:41

But also I think it was, it's good, you know, it was obviously an introduction of someone you knew and I think it's just good to talk.

So, yes, there is some luck, but I also think there's an element of if you talk about what you're doing and what you're looking for and what you need, you've got more chance of finding someone that can help. So I think there's some of that in it as well.

Sarah Birchall: 00:30:57

That's very true. Yes. Yeah, that is true. Yeah. So it was fortuitous. Yeah. And thankful for that. Yeah. That it worked out that way.

And because, you know, there isn't a very. There is an element of unspoken, I don't know what the word is, where you do not share your contact details for your factory.

I've discovered that there's been a couple of instances over the years and people are very funny about it.

And I understand from one point of view because especially if you've spent a lot of time trying to find a factory and then you found them and they're brilliant and then someone might come along and I have had that. I've been on receiving end of that where someone says, oh, you know, I'm looking for factory, can you give me your details? And you kind of.

I understand people think, oh, actually, you know, might want to try a little bit harder than that. But I also think, well, small businesses are in it together, you know, we'll probably do things slightly differently.

What does it matter if we actually share the contact details? And it's nice, calmer. But it seems to be the unspoken thing that I found at beginning. Like you do not tell anyone what factor you're working with.

It's gold dust. It has to be kept very close to your chest. So I knew obviously, yes, no one was going to normally just tell me.

And so being able to find my factory kind of through a sort of a friend of a friend helped, but otherwise I think I would have got stuck because of. Because of that kind of closed bookness that I encountered back then. Anyway, I think it hopefully has changed a little bit now.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:27

Yeah, I get the impression is changing a little bit. People who'd rather keep things to themselves and, and that's what I'm not saying one way is better than the other.

Sarah Birchall: 00:32:36

I can understand both sides, but I think it's nice just.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:32:41

Yeah, it's nice just if we can all help each other. I think that's really something really nice about being able to Put someone in contact with someone that's going to be helpful to them or.

Yeah, make connections. I just think that's a nice thing to be able to do.

Sarah Birchall: 00:32:53

Exactly, exactly. I'm not reinventing the wheel. I think all of us are doing. We're doing clothing. It's.

I think you're not kind of got a prototype of a top secret kind of invention that I've got behind the scenes. So I think it can't hurt, really. But, yeah, so I'm, so, I'm very grateful that she did share with me.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:33:11

Well, that's really, that's really good. And let's come back a bit to talking about pivoting from children's clothes to adults clothes. So.

So you mentioned you're getting feedback from customers saying, I'd love to have that in my size. I'd like to be able to buy that for myself.

So when you, when you were hearing that a lot, was that what got you thinking, okay, maybe it's a good idea to try this?

Sarah Birchall: 00:33:32

Yeah, There's a lot of talk of matching big and little. They, you know, that seemed very popular, especially with sort of younger children.

Obviously, if you've got older kids, you'll probably know they don't want to stand next to their mum wearing the same thing. But when they're, you know, when you have control of dressing them when they're two and three.

And there was definitely a very popular trend, I'm not sure because I'm out of that world a little bit now, if that still exists, of like, let's all be matching, you know, let's all have matching T shirts or matching pajamas. So that was. I was getting customers saying, we thought about doing that for maybe two because then we can match.

And I started doing T shirts probably during the pandemic. I was working with a fashion mentor then who I still kind of talk to now, and she was great and she encouraged me to do some T shirts.

That's the first time I've ever done it where I had to source blank. Initially, I'd done kids T shirt with my factory, which is great. And lovely pencil T shirts I still love.

But it's quite hard with T shirts because obviously it's still the minimum that you're having to commit to and the time it takes. So for me to design the T shirt from scratch still took three to four months to produce.

Whereas I found a great supplier here at lovely organic cotton T shirts. And they're really gorgeous. Kind of fit and cut and variety.

After looking for ages and I can just order three T shirts if I want and they'll be delivered tomorrow. And I found the screen printer, who is local and yeah, basically started doing couple designs just kind of just to add to the collection.

While things are a bit sticky during the pandemic, I wasn't sure what was happening with the factory. And then.

So that was a really easy way for me to, well, I'll do some adult ones at the same time because I wasn't committing to kind of a huge production, you know, having to do double, essentially adult and kids. And again, like I said, the timeline where it's going to take me three or four months to actually get out into the world. So I just dabbled with that.

I have my cereal T shirt and I had a couple of others back then and they just did quite well.

And it just sowed the seed where I just thought maybe then I had this sweatshirt, the line dots launching for the kids, thought maybe I just start that and do an adult version as well. And that item has been on sale continuously in my collection ever since. I've never taken it out of the range because it's just done really well.

So I think it was just experimenting, listening to feedback. Enough that was coming in that I thought, I'll try it. I'll try it that way.

Where it felt safer for me to do it without committing too much money and time and energy and then grow.

And then I think people knowing that they could buy an adult piece of clothing from the website then sort of opened the doors a bit for me to add to that side as well. It wasn't kind of.

It's quite hard sometimes just landing a new product in front of someone that isn't kind of part of the theme of the collection you've already been building. You know, I found that with homeware, which is a whole other topic where people kind of like, you know, but you sell clothes. Hang on a sec.

Why is there like a notebook there too, that I kind of. It's not as seamless.

And I think also when you're marketing as well, as I grew to do both, that got kind of more complicated because you realize that you're marketing to two different audiences, marketing to adults and marketing what kids wear is. It's different. So, yeah, that's how it started and how it grew. And then the time came for me to stop the kids wear.

And the following year, well, thank you.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:37:16

For sharing all of that. And did it. So when you stopped doing the kids wear completely, has that made it simpler in terms of Your marketing and talking about your brand.

Sarah Birchall: 00:37:25

Yeah, I felt so because at first I felt really conflicted.

I felt like I was going to be cheating on my brand because the whole reason I started was using kidswear and then for me to decide to end that did feel really sad. And my daughter still talks about it. She said why do you not do kids there anymore?

She's luckily still in remnants of the kids wear because she's 8 and I went up to 10 with some of the things.

But yeah, it did get easier because it's just me doing everything and you know, from down to my Instagram and my newsletter when you're, you're trying to, you know, do marketing, messaging for kids wearing, it's really versatile when you know your potty training and.

And then the next thing you're suddenly talking about all this, this dress works well for seasons and you can layer out and it's got pockets and it's just a different mindset.

But what I did like and what I love now is I felt like it opens a new wave of customers for me that weren't full parents because I felt like I didn't want to necessarily just be pigeonholed selling just to parents. And it's nice now that I don't have to just concentrate on talking about kids all the time and being a mom and being a dad.

So you know, yeah, anyone can buy my adult wear and you don't just have to be a parent. Obviously you can buy kids where you're not. But tended to be mostly parents I was selling to before.

So it just sort of simplified it and also I felt broadened who I could sell to too at the same time. So it kind of makes sense really inevitably.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:38:52

Yeah, that doesn't. That definitely makes sense. And I think as you say, it makes your messaging clearer if you're just talking to one group of people.

Sarah Birchall: 00:39:00

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So yeah, I eventually kind of made peace with it and yeah, I think it did help me in the long run just to kind of simplify it. Yeah.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:39:10

And it is so interesting though because as you say it's kind of, it has, it's done both I guess niche down your audience but also expanded it because it's also as you say, parents and non parents.

Sarah Birchall: 00:39:20

Exactly, exactly. And some of my smaller sizes for sure you can get 10 year olds, 11 year olds and teens upwards, they can wear them as well.

So I, there's still an element where I can. And I find that more exciting now. Anyway, now my kids are bigger.

I seeing older kids in My clothes is more of a sense of like satisfaction because like we said, I know how hard it is to please older kids and they've got more of a say in what they want to wear. So actually that's, that's really nice kind of tick box too.

I can still kind of sell to some kids if I want to and I know customers who've still got their, you know, they've got their kids in their sweatshirts as well. I had that in the shop recently where the mum and the daughter, which is really nice.

When I did the pop up shop came in, the daughter was about 12 and they basically agreed they were going to timeshare one of my sweatshirts. So the mum said I will buy it. And she said, well I want it. She said, right, it's a live in my wardrobe.

And it was just really nice seeing these two different generations who both wanted a sweatshirt and they were going to share it. And then, you know, I had a lady in her 70s come in and buy it a couple of days later. So it really had gone full kind of circle.

And so yeah, opening, opening up that audience has been really nice.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:40:32

And that also leads me on really seamlessly almost if you planned it. So talking about shops. So yeah, so let's talk about physical shops and how that's been and where that's going.

Sarah Birchall: 00:40:44

Yes, it's crazy. So as soon as we finish podcast I am off to the shop that I got the keys to last Thursday to paint it.

So yeah, I started thinking about the shop last year. It was sort of just on my mind, I think because so I'm in London, as I said before and I.

It's just happened to be that I'd say a third of my audience are in London.

I don't really necessarily know how that's happened, I guess just people talk, et cetera and sexually and I've done a few local markets and things and I just thought could be quite nice to have a shop, bonkers as it may sound.

Also because I'm clothing and what we've talked about is the concept of, you know, having someone, that someone can come and see the fabrics and try them on and feel them and see the colors of the life has felt more and more important as cupboard pudding has grown more. Especially this year I felt like I kind of missed out. Like I'd love to say, look, you can come here and try it on.

And I did a pop up shop last June as my first pop up where I was actually in my own shop for a couple of Weeks and I took over the whole space in southeast London and it went well and I really enjoyed it. I just really, really enjoyed it. I am lucky enough that I get to share a studio space with my husband. We never.

As soon as Pandemic finished, we actually signed the lease during the Pandemic. We have a lovely workspace building about a mile and a half away. It's an amazing community and we've had a studio there since then.

So I've never worked from home and I've been really lucky to work there. But the last year or so I felt particularly lonely, just, just me with my computer and I was missing the kind of interaction with people and with.

And from doing that pop up. Also what really struck me is you get to see people's reaction immediately to your clothes.

You get to see the feedback you're getting on an item where maybe you weren't so sure about it, but actually in real life you can see people's reaction. And it was just really, really interesting to me and to have conversations with people in real life about the clothes and the brand.

So, yeah, it's overseas in my head. And then I did another pop up in November, same sort of area. And then I did one a couple of months ago for two whole months.

As long as I've done it in the same area as well. And I've been started looking for the beginning of this year essentially for a space and it's quite hard.

I think you need to be in with like the local high street crowd because it's not, it's not like, right moving. They don't tend to pop up on there.

And then long story being is that someone got in contact saying she was moving out of her space only about six weeks ago. And I went to look at it and kind of loved it and just decided to do it really.

I know people think I'm crazy and that's where the naysayers come in saying, oh my gosh, opening a shop is such a big commitment and it is. But I am someone that when I get something in my head I just, I know I won't be able to get it out again. And I just think you can only try.

And I would always be asking myself, like, what would have happened if I'd opened that shop. So, yeah, I'm excited. I'm opening hopefully sassy 19th October. I've got two weeks to turn it around.

I've got someone in there at the moment painting the outside, ripping out shelves and sinks. It was a florist before and it's a really cool kind of kooky space.

It's got a front section and then like a middle section and then what importantly for me, which none of the others had, it has a storage downstairs so I can take all my stuff that's currently living in my studio and put it there and work from one place. So yeah, I'm excited.

I'm all emotions, I'm excited, I'm really nervous, I'm anxious and I wake up in the morning something, oh my God, what have I done? And then by the end of the day when I'm there I'm like, this is amazing. But also, oh my God.

But I'm obviously been able to lucky enough to open at this point in the year so I'm hoping I'll get a good sort of run up to Christmas and being there and try and really maximize being there as much as I can in that Christmas period before. As everyone keeps telling me, especially the locals, how hideous January is from the high street.

But so I think if I was opening January, February, it might be kind of a slightly different. Hoping that I can make the most of it with workshops and things. But yeah, I'm excited to have my name off the door. I mean that feels like a kind of.

It's scary and but it feels like the next chapter for me.

I feel like I've outgrown just sitting in studio on my own with Peter and I just want to be around people who are interacting with my clothes and my designs and yeah, I can only try. So we'll see.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:45:15

But yeah, it's so exciting and, and it's all obviously very new but what I think would be lovely is to do maybe a follow up in six months all about opening, opening a shop because I'm not going to go into the details now of ask you lots of questions about it because it is so new and probably quite overwhelming and busy and there's lots to do but it would be lovely to catch up again and find out sort of the ins and outs of how you do it because you are my very first guest who's opened a shop.

Sarah Birchall: 00:45:45

Oh wow. Oh that's exciting. Oh, I'd love to. I hope I don't come back in six months. I've sort of aged 40 years like oh, you know, it's the worst thing ever.

But yeah, no, I'd love to because like anything, it's always nice to hear from other people and how they've done it. So yeah, I'll be here and fingers crossed it's all fairly positive but yeah, yeah, excited.

But yeah, I think it's a good balance to have the fear and excitement together.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:46:12

Yeah, I think that's a really healthy place to be actually because I think if it was just one or the other. Yeah, they need to balance each other out definitely.

Sarah Birchall: 00:46:20

You need a healthy dose of both. And they're definitely both there.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:46:23

And where is the shop? Because once this episode is released I've just been looking up at my schedule. You will be open. So whereabouts is the shop?

Sarah Birchall: 00:46:30

Well, yes, it's in Forest Hill in South East London. So the station, Forest Hill Station is just up the road and the road I'm on, it's really special actually because it's Dartmouth Road in Forest Hill.

It's purely indie shops. There's not one chain shop there and there's a really, really lovely community. There's lots of really gorgeous independent shops down there.

So there's lots to do in the area too depending on what's come visit. But yeah, I've already from doing a pop up, two pop ups on exactly the same road which has been nice.

So this year and last I've already kind of felt that sense of community that exists there and it definitely is a really nice vibe for supporting small businesses in the area. So yeah, it's just up the road for me.

I used to live around the corner so it, it feels, it feels like, you know, familiar and comforting in terms of, you know, I know, I know the area.

I think if a space had come up in another part of London I wouldn't have been able to do it because I just think you need to know your kind of demographic on the doorstep and it is my customers around there. So yeah, it's a good spot for a sales. So you come and visit.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:47:33

Yeah, that's really exciting.

And I think it makes sense as well that your customers are local because I mean there's definitely a drive to support local businesses and I think that indie clothes shops in particular, I do think that a lot of the people who come through the doors, apart from people who've traveled to come there and there will always be people who travel, a lot of them are local people who want to support this lovely shop that's in their neighborhood.

Sarah Birchall: 00:47:56

Definitely, definitely.

And what's nice is when I've done pop ups before, you know, I've been there for two weeks, you have someone come in and of course like in markets with the same thing where they say oh I'll come back and then life happens and you've gone and they've forgotten who you were and you know, there's no sign on the window anymore.

So the chance to actually, you know, have that visibility permanently on a high street where someone might be in a rush on a Sunday morning but they can come back for sure and I'm still going to be there, you know, three weeks later, two months later is really nice and reassuring and like you said, I think there's just genuine interest in small businesses and going into a space and people. I had a guy when I was painting last week, he knocked on the window and he said, you know, what's happened to the lady who was here before?

He had a beautiful shop and then when I said it was me, he kind of said, oh thank God. You know my. We live around the corner.

We just really didn't want it to be, you know, really faceless, soulless, Poundland, you know, we just really hoped it would be anyone that's an indie. And I think there's this genuine hope and you know, yeah. Support for that on your high street.

You want it to feel like it's cared for and loved and not just a money making, huge corporate brand.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:49:05

Where they go and it is exciting when new brands move in. There's. On the road I live on, there's a tiny little stretch of maybe three or four shop fronts and one of them is empty.

I'm so excited to see what's going to. I don't know what it's going to be. I really hope I'm not disappointed. I'm so genuinely excited. What will it be?

Just it's, it's exciting when new things move in.

Sarah Birchall: 00:49:26

Yeah, go you like we. I live in Crystal palace and there's a stretch where three or four have just opened up recently and, and I'm, you know, I'm so chuffed for them.

They're all. There's a sweet shop and there's, you know, completely different yoga.

And I just, you know, and now knowing what goes into running a business and obviously now more shop, you're just really rooting for them. Like please everyone, like go there please, you know, and tell everyone like make sure, keep it busy please.

Just, you know, always just want to see loads of people in there as much as possible because you know, you want them to survive, you want them to make it essentially. That's what's important.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:50:00

Definitely. And it's so exciting. And on that note, I hope everyone who's in the area or passing through Forest Hill can come and have a look at your shop.

I'LL definitely come and see your shop. I would love to.

Sarah Birchall: 00:50:09

Love.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:50:10

Yeah, I would love to. I definitely, I really like that part. I used to live in that part of London. So yeah, I'll have to have a nostalgic.

Sarah Birchall: 00:50:17

It's lovely. It's lovely.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:50:20

So the final question I have for you, sir, is one that I ask every podcast guest and that is, what would your number one piece of advice be for other product creators?

Sarah Birchall: 00:50:30

I had to think about this because, you know so many things. I think actually it's maybe as simple as just looking after yourself and your own well being.

My husband runs his own business that he is client facing and so often, you know, I kind of jab at him and say, you're so lucky because with the product business there's so many cogs in the wheel, there's so many things, so many elements to get that product to your customer for that to happen.

And I think when you're in the business and you're doing a vast share of it, I found that as things have got busier, which is great, I've suffered in terms of my own wellbeing and my own mental health because I'm doing so much and I think it's just not being afraid to delegate when you might be afraid of it. I was so worried about cash trade. I always thought, you know, I have to everything myself, I can't afford any help, I have to do everything.

And then there comes a point where, you know, life happens. You can't always be doing everything yourself.

We had a holiday this year and we had to plan to be away essentially and that was where my hand was forced finally to get someone to help me with my customer emails and things. And it's been the best thing I did. I haven't looked back and I don't have to think about that anymore.

So I think it's just looking after yourself to the point where there's something that really you don't need to do anymore that is causing you maybe a bit of stress or a bit of ants.

And for me it was dealing with customer emails that were coming in on a Saturday and I didn't want to look at it, but then it was in my mind and, you know, now someone does all that for me. I don't need to see it and it's actually made my life a lot easier. And there's only one you. Your brand is you, your business.

So you just need to, I think, just be careful and look after yourself and your well being as things hope you grow and the business gets bigger.

Be clever about how you spend your time and what you need help with and how you can best kind of give yourself, allow yourself to take some time away and not feel guilty about it and just look after yourself.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:52:34

That's such good advice. Thank you. Because you're right, I think running a business, whatever you do, it can.

It can take over your life if you allow it to, because there's never enough hours in the day. There's always something that needs to be done.

Sarah Birchall: 00:52:45

No, you're selling online, it is literally 24, 7 and internationally, people contact you all times of the day and it's your baby, you're passionate about it, you want to do your best.

But, yeah, it's just finding the balance to making sure your sanity, your mental health is in check and, yeah, making good decisions in terms of delegating things that might help you serve your business better.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:53:08

Oh, well, thank you so much and thank you for everything that you've shared.

Sarah Birchall: 00:53:11

Thank you so much. Really nice to chat.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:53:13

It's been lovely.

Sarah Birchall: 00:53:15

So nice.

And yeah, it's been a while, so, yeah, it's like I said, it can be quite lonely running a business, so it's always really, really nice to kind of get out and talk about what you do when it's just you in your business. So, yeah, thank you so much.

Vicki Weinberg: 00:53:28

You're so welcome. And on the other side, I think it's really lovely for people to hear from other people running their businesses. So, yeah, it's great.

Thank you so much for listening.

Right to the end of this episode, do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vickiweinberg.com Please remember to rate and review this episode if you've enjoyed it, and also share it with a friend who you think might find it useful. Thank you again and see you next week.

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