Virtual Immersion: Exploring the Intersection of XR, VR, and the Metaverse🥽🌐

Nadja Bester, Co-founder of AdLunam was joined by a distinguished panel of experts, including David Mařák (co-founder of YORD), Weronika Marciniak (CEO of Future is Meta), and Sonya Haskins (Head of Programming at Augmented World Expo). Together, they delved into the potential of XR in business, its accessibility, and how companies can bridge the gap between the digital and physical worlds. Whether you were curious about the future of technology or a professional seeking to understand how to leverage XR for your business, this episode was packed with valuable insights.

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E62- Virtual Immersion: The Intersection of XR, VR, & the Metaverse

SPEAKERS

Nadja Bester AdLunam Inc Co-Founder

David Mařák Co-Founder & CTO of YORD

Weronika Marciniak CEO of Future is Meta

Sonya Haskins Head of Programming at AWE (Augmented World Expo)

All right, guys, I see there's a few people coming into the room. So before we get started, let's just do a quick sound check. First of all, if you can hear me, give me your favorite emoji, just so I know that I'm not speaking into the void. Oh, perfect. Thank you. And then our speakers, if you guys, can also just unmute yourselves, and so we know that we can hear you as well.

Hello, everybody,

awesome. Can hear you. Sonya, we can't hear you. So if you are trying to speak, we might have an issue with your sound then, still not able to hear you, just double checking that you are joining from a phone and not from a computer, because I think otherwise we wouldn't be able to hear the audio. Alright? In the meantime, I'm gonna get started with the introduction, and then we can get into the meat of the conversation. So 3,2,1, hey, web3 world, this is Nadja Bester, the co-founder of AdLunam with web3's first Engage to Earn investment ecosystem on a mission to democratize decentralized investing. And welcome to another episode of the future of NFTs, where each week, our guests take us on a trip to the future. So this week, the metaverse, AR or augmented reality, VR, virtual reality. These are known collectively as x are or extended reality. These have all become buzzwords in the tech world. But beyond the hype, these are hyper immersive technologies built for a Tomorrow World, and they are seeing huge investment in 2024 the metaverse is estimated to be valued at a what is this? Almost 75 billion US dollars, and the X our space. Is valued at $92.5 billion in 2023 so you can tell from the investments that although we are not really seeing these technologies in everyday life as yet, the future is going to be a very different place. They are very quietly reshaping industries and also just generally redefining how we live, how we work and how we connect. So today, I'm very happy to be having with me some amazing speakers who are absolute experts on the topic, so we can cut through the noise to understand how the metaverse, XR and web3 intersect. But just a quick announcement before we dive in. Altcoin observer, AdLunam’s media arm is a media partner for Istanbul Blockchain week, Blockchain futuristic conference, ETHToronto, ETHWomen, all happening today and tomorrow, 13 to 14, August. So if you're tuning in from Istanbul or from Toronto, send us a DM. We have some tickets. We might be able to send you away. So on to today's show. I know that Weronica is a little bit late. She might not necessarily be able to join us at the beginning, so I will go ahead and introduce our amazing speakers for the day. We have Sonya Haskins, who is the head of programming at augmented world expo, which is the world's biggest XR event, franchise and community, and also the company behind the annual Augie awards. And then we have David. David, I'm so sorry. I'm going to Butcher your surname, Marciek. I'm so sorry. I know that's not how it's pronounced. Please do correct me. Welcome. And so David is the founder of YOD, which is one of the world's top immersive app development companies, award winning. And then also we have Veronica Marciniak, who is the CEO at The future is meta, a Hong Kong based Metaverse design agency. So David, Sonya, welcome. Very happy to have you here. There's so much to cover, I think, in this conversation, because it touches on so many different aspects of industry and just society and how society is changing as a result of digital evolution. So I'd like to just let's anchor ourselves in the conversation when we talk about, you know, spatial computing and extended reality and the metaverse, what is an easy way that you would define this for the average person, Sonya? Please. Let's start with you. And I also would like to say that Sonia is not only someone who is well versed in the business side of things, Sonya would also love to have you just mention a little bit about your experiences in tournaments and representing the North American regional finals from the Oculus VR please. Yeah, go ahead.

Well, first of all, thank you for having us on the show. And second of all, no pressure here starting off first thing in the morning. So explaining the metaverse, that's a little bit of a challenge, so, but I will try my best. And yes, thank you for mentioning the history with competitive eSports, actually, I had my very quick summary is I was not involved with tech at all. I was a stay at home mom and a writer. I'm a journalist by trade, so I did that for 25 or so years, and spent most of my life raising my family. Then my son introduced me to VR in April 2017 he said he thought it was something I would enjoy, and it did not sound like something I would enjoy, but I went to Best Buy with him and put the headset on, and it literally just changed my life. I immediately was so incredibly awed by this, this device that I had on my head that made me feel like I was in a completely different location. So I purchased it on the spot, went home, started playing. I ended up being oddly, very good at VR and so I started playing a competitive esport game called Echo arena. And I'm a I had been in a wheelchair for quite some time off and on, and so I couldn't stand more than about 10 minutes at a time. So basically I played seated. And when my team qualified to compete at Oculus Connect Four and the Nationals, they were all saying, like, you know, zoom, I need anything. And I said, I just need a chair. And people were like, Why do you need a chair? And I said, because I play VR in a chair. And everybody was like, nobody plays VR in a chair. And I was like, Well, I do. And so basically, I went and played. It was a great experience, but I realized when I was there, that from a journalistic perspective, I thought, how can people. Know anything about this awesome technology. How you know? How is this something that other people don't know about? Because I had been losing weight, getting healthier, I was able to use my legs more and more, and because, as I was sitting in the chair, I was also turning and still using those muscles to rebuild them. And so anyway, that was kind of my introduction into VR, esports, gaming. And because I had a journalistic background, eventually I started writing articles about various people in the industry, and especially those who are doing great things, being, you know, creating accessible and inclusive experiences. And as the metaverse started kind of developing out. That was my push. You know, how are we using this to do good things? Because if you're going to create worlds, to me, that's kind of the same as playing God, and if you're going to do that, that's a big responsibility. So I wanted to support those people that were trying to do it with good intentions. And then eventually, in 2022 I was offered this position with AWE, and I'm so now I'm head of programming, and I get to work with just the most fantastic tech companies and startups, all kinds of people around the world who believe in this technology. And so it's just fantastic, and I'm honored to be here.

Wow. Thank you so much for that lovely introduction. I so much related to what you said. I also was a journalist, and I also was a stay at home, working mom, so I very much had a similar journey in terms of, you know, onboarding into tech, not because it was a first love, but because once I was exposed to it in the ways that I that I was I started realizing that worlds opened up, but at the same time, as you said, when you when you're building or creating a world, there also comes with it, a sense of responsibility, that that world that you create should be somehow more improved at the one that you are currently in. So definitely very excited to be talking about some of more of these things about you tonight. Sonia Veronica, I see that you are here. I'm so happy that you could join us. Welcome. So a little bit of context. Veronica and I spoke together on a panel in Hong Kong. I think it was on the future of the metaverse. I think I moderated the panel. So Weronica is an absolute expert, an architect in the real world, turned just Metaverse design expert in the virtual world. So Veronica, welcome, yeah, maybe, maybe, since it's so early for Sonia, thank you, Sonia, for being willing to get us going today. Veronica, when you define to the average person. What is extended reality? What is the metaverse? How would you go about explaining this?

Hi, thank you so much for the introduction, and thank you so much for being here for the invitation. Yes, I'm I was a little bit at risk of not joining today, because I'm a little bit stuck in in a broken car, but see, it seems that technology is bringing us together. So it all worked out well. And yeah, so the extended reality, the way I the way I look at it, is really, you know, the way that digital you know, interfaces should be. This is this is it, I just see the current state of of the internet, of the websites as a as a step towards what it needs to be and trying to build, you know, the piece by piece towards that goal. Thank you.

I love that explanation, because I think very often we get sort of bogged down in the fact that, I mean, there's all these technicalities, there are all these challenges, there's the fact that, yes, we are very far from mass adoption. But I love how you frame it. In a sense, it is improving things, and it is improving it little by little. And that's, I think, where the sort of patience comes in of people working within an industry that is small but growing, is knowing that the future is not going to look like today's world, but it's like, I think, like the Henry Ford quote, who's the Henry Ford quote, where he says, if you ask people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses. Veronica, very happy to have you here, David, from your perspective, you are on the tech side. You are that you are the company building out these solutions for other companies to be able to utilize. So what are you seeing in terms of the level to which people understand what these technologies are? If you work with clients, if you work with companies, what is their general level of understanding? Is it more that they know what they want, but they don't quite. Understand how to get it, or is it something that they want to experience, but they don't quite know why, and so they just kind of playing around. Would love to have that, that insight.

Hello everybody. Thank you, NadJa, for having me. Yeah, this is, this is cool question. Like, to be honest, like, it really differs, like, we have a lot of clients and a lot of levels of understanding. Some people are just super excited about the technologies. They have. The VR headset at home. Their kids loves it. They try the AR filter on Instagram, and they say, Okay, we want this in our business somehow or something like that. And then there are people like, which are on the other side that they are like, have some need. They want, like, to innovate. They want to improve their business. They want to bring something new. And like the AR, VR or Metaverse is just the answer for their questions. So like, there are different approaches and different levels of understanding. And even right now, like, how is that? Like, metaverse? Like, it's super, super, super hard to define for somebody. And like, to be honest, like, I need to, like, share, like, one definition I actually, like, got from one guy on LinkedIn, on the comments, and it was like, Metaverse is just the internet with z, x is so like, we are just adding another dimension to the internet, and it's such a simple explanation, and it has everything in it. And like, I can have the conversation with the deep tech people about the metaverse for hours and going deeper and deeper. But this is, this is so such a simple sentence, and it's explain it all.

Yeah, I think it also aligns with, with my, with my view of, like, really trying to make it more like reality, like what we're used to is looking at space in 3d right? So yeah, that's a good one. Thanks.

Yeah, thank you, David and Weronica. I think to bring it back to to reality, because ultimately, if we are trying to extend reality, we have to have a natural sort of extension from current reality. So that leads me to my next question, David, you mentioned, you know, some people, of course, have these things at home. They are engaging it with their kids, but then, generally speaking, these technologies and the hardware needed is still available to a very small segment of the global population. So when do you envision, especially with the Apple vision pro you know, not having, not receiving the kind of reviews that perhaps some people were expecting. When do you anticipate we are going to see these kind of technologies in the average household, as opposed to right now, where it's a very small percentage of the population. Sonya,

yeah, I think that the we have to remember, you know, however many say, 30 years ago, nobody had cell phones. And then you had a few people that had cell phones in their cars. You know, you maybe had wealthy people that ran around with cell phones in their cars and at the time, there was a anytime you've had new technology, whether it's even television or computers or things like that, there was always a mindset of, well, it's just going to be a few elite people, or it's it's a novel thing for those who can afford it, but not everybody's going to use it. And now, literally, most humans on the planet are not within two feet of their cell phone. And so I think that that's an important thing to keep in mind when we discuss access to xr for the average consumer. Now, remember when some of us, it sounds several of you, actually, when we started into XR, if you look at VR, say, when I began in 2017 I didn't even know what it was. Had never even heard of it. And then you had the year before that, 2016 the first consumer device is released. I heard about it in 2017 and look now. I mean, we have, I don't have the stats handy right this second, but there are more VR headsets being sold than some of the traditional play consoles and stuff. And so even though, yes, it is still very small population that has access to these devices, it's definitely growing. And I think the more important thing is that it's becoming people are knowledgeable of it now, and you not only have people asking about the metaverse, but as far as the devices themselves that become more accessible. You mentioned Apple vision Pro, which is fantastic, and for let's say, for example, business use cases. But for me, I focus more on the consumer side, and hopefully I'm not going to get yelled at by anyone for saying that. I don't think that's necessarily consumer but people I know don't have an average of. $3,500 to spend on a headset. However, they might have $300 where they could buy, say, a quest for example, or a Pico. And so I just think it's important to think of accessibility and how people are coming by these devices, and the fact that they are actually becoming more common and more accessible to us.

Yeah, thank you. I think that was a brilliant example about cell phones having once been the kind of thing that you see in a movie and its wall. Blows your mind to today, where the Africa, for example, entirely skipped the PC experience and went straight to the mobile experience. David wanted to add something,

yeah, like, I really love this Sonya's point. But just, just to add, like, I think, like, the most of the metaverses and wars like this in 2021 and when there was, like, really peak, they kind of like failed, because they just focus on the XR interface. They, they kind of like said, Okay, you want to be interface in the metaverse. You need to have the VR glasses or XR glasses. And I think like to have the successful metaverses, you need to be on even on the legacy platforms like the mobile phones and web browsers and everywhere. And I think to kind of like, Metaverse is not like, just about the VR or AR glasses or something like that. It's a it's a term which kind of, like, connects it. And I think like to get the biggest adoption, or like, get the higher adoption, it's about to bring, also give you access to all the people like to be able to connect from your phone, from your headset, and like the VR headset, just give you the best experience. And people will it will bring the people to these hardware and softwares by the like offering the best experience, not just to keep them exclusively access to it.

Yeah, I really love your focus on the fact that it should be available on even legacy platforms and devices. So I'm curious then, in your work with your Have you come across or have you, have you worked on projects that are good examples of this, where we are able to take these technologies and really bring it to people that do not have the access to the devices needed typically, to have these experiences,

yeah? Like, there are, there are many projects like where the first conversation with the clients is about, like, Okay, we want to have the VR experience. That's what they came with. And we are okay, but we want to have the coverage of this amount of the people we want to cover, like, I don't know, 60% of our customers, and we are no that's not possible. Like, 5% or 2% of your customers have the VR headset. You either want to bring them like, the high interactive experience, and it will be aimed for 2% or it will be aimed for some event where you will offer them the VR headset or the experience there, or you need to have some backup in the form of the legacy platforms. And when I'm talking about the legacy platforms, like, it doesn't need to be, just the desktop like, because, like, mobile phone is the like, is the most common augmented related device in the world. Like, there are, like, four billions of the mobile phones which can access the augmented reality right now. So like, half of the world can right now access the AR filter or some AR navigation with their phone. And they are like, how Sonia said, everybody has it in their pocket. They are using it every day. And like, I think, like the augmented related through the phone is kind of like bridging the words. And I think, like the evolution of the phone to headsets, like employee trying with the provision Pro is possible will be maybe a little bit slower, but it's the transformation. And if we will transform the phones into the headsets, we will have the we will want this race. When this race?

Can I help you? Yes, please go ahead. Yeah, so I was going to add something here, so there's something else to think about. I completely agree with what David's saying, but one observation to make is that hopefully most people here agree, and I think he even said it when you are dealing with, let's say, for example, virtual reality, or when you're completely immersed, it is a different experience than you know when you're using traditional platforms. So you have a pro and a con here. If you look at the fact that you can create Metaverse experiences on traditional platforms, that's fantastic, and you're making more people aware of it, and you have more access. But on the other hand, you're also to some degree. Giving them the impression or the experience that is, quote, lesser than, or they're thinking it's, this is the metaverse, when really it's not the full best experience. It would be kind of like if we were walking around every day in a 2D or a flat world. Or, you know, you just don't have the or if you never, ever, ever had spices or seasonings on your food or something like that. It can still be good and healthy and you can still enjoy it, but maybe it isn't quite the complete experience. I'm not saying that's bad or obviously we need to do that because we still need to grow it. I'm just making an observation that the hope is that people will understand that there's still more better stuff out there, as opposed to, oh well, I heard of that I didn't enjoy it, and I'm never going to try it again, and or I'm never going to experience it again. And so that's something I would say just as a caution, that we need to always remember when we explain to people that there are, that we need to make sure they understand there are different iterations. Like I liked what he was saying when he explained to clients that you have to make sure they understand. This is only 2% of people that can experience it this way. But yet, it may be better, but it's a small number of people. It's just important for people to know. You know, there are various versions, iterations and accessibility and all of it's good, but we need to explain the differences as we go so that they don't think that the whatever we're offering them is the final or best dispersion. Hopefully that makes sense. Absolutely. Yeah.

Weronica would, yes, please, please, go ahead.

I would. I would, actually, I mean, Yes, I see your point, but I'm always concerned about one thing, because the current state of the headsets, and the fact that most people are maybe getting a little bit dizzy at some point, or, you know, there are many issues with The VR headsets. So I'm actually a fan of, of, of course I love them and I love the VR experience, but I am a fan of really treating this almost equally as interchangeable. Because I see, I'm wondering what your experiences are because, but I see, unfortunately, this very often, you know, I get very excited showing a project in VR and then and people, people are a little bit like, maybe overwhelmed, or, yeah, I almost feel like, you know, this, this experience seeing, seeing this world on The screen, and first getting used to on a flat screen, first getting used to what is going to happen, like this, this there. There needs to be this process where people get used to experiencing 3D digital spaces. Of course, that yeah, there are, there are exceptions, but yeah, but I've seen, yeah, I've seen these, these mixed reactions.

Weronica, I would have a proposal for you on that. I'm not disagreeing with you at all. And I think that the biggest thing just to say up front is I definitely agree with freedom of choice and options. Like I think it's great that we have many, many different options, and people can choose what works for them. But one thing that I would challenge everyone with the comments you made, I would challenge that thinking is whenever we first started having television, when you know television was first created, it was created as a 2D experience. You're creating an artificial thing to look at a 2d screen where your brain is being trained that you can watch this story and you can enjoy that story as a view in front of you, separate from your actual experience, your physical experience, or your world. So ask people you know, what if the initial iterations of television were actually 3d what if they had been 3D what if we hadn't, for generations now, been trained that it's better normal, more natural, more acceptable, whatever to look at a 2d screen to enjoy these experiences and stories versus if we had originally had something like augmented or virtual reality. I mean, obviously that's not gonna happen, but I just think it's a cool thing to think about

true. That is true, and that's actually what I observed recently with my 92 year old grandmother, who, you know, spent most of her life without devices like phones and laptops, and for her, the metaverse and VR is more natural to than to some of the, you know, the younger generations. Because for her, like the whole concept of having digital presence, digital, you know, information is so also absurd. And so, you know, so new well, she, she went through going from nothing to computers, and, you know, and a significant portion of her life was without it. So I do, yeah, this is, this is a great point, and I think it works. But still, yeah, of course, we have those who will, who will be more difficult to absorb

The reason I, the reason actually bring up that question, is because, you know, at the beginning, I shared a little bit of my history, but we, as a I know this sounds a little crazy to some, but as a homeschool mom, stay at home mom, we didn't even have A TV a lot of the time. I mean, I pretty much lived off the grid, and we didn't have a lot of exposure tech, technology. So I think your point about your grandmother, for me, that's why I raised that question. I think people who, if we had never had that phase where everyone was watching TV, like because I didn't watch a lot of TV, you have access to Tech, I think my brain automatically just accepted VR as an extension of what was around me. And so it's just an interesting concept. If you take people who haven't had as much exposure to technology, I think that they actually, in some ways, just accept it as a reality more, and I don't know, it's just kind of an interesting thought,

yeah, like, like, to be honest, it will be funny. Like, in 500 years, like, they will look back and say, okay, there was this 100 years period where we went from 3D to 2D and then just back to 3D like, because, like, before that, like, from 18th century, back into the stone age. We were always like perceiving everything in 3D and like just from the like anything moving postdig. Then there was this 100 years period where we transform it into the 2D and right now we are getting back to the treaty.

Well, David, that's a really lovely way of putting it. And thank you, Veronica and Sonia for a very enriching discussion. I think it's so important to have this balanced approach. And I think but the vast territory that you covered in the few lines that you said about this topic, really shows that there's so much to talk about and that there's never any one right answer. So that bring me then, that brings me, then to my next question. I think, Sonya, you touched on something really important in the beginning, in terms of accessibility and inclusion, that having particular needs, VR actually catered to those needs, as opposed to, you know, hindering them. But then also, Veronica raised an important point about the headsets being heavy, and that, you know, people get headaches from them. And so I'm wondering, then, if we are focusing on a future of inclusion where everyone has the ability to use these tools and these technologies in different ways, how are companies going to really mitigate this? Because there's so many different people with such different needs, how do you how do you streamline things and say, Okay, this is what's going to work for most people, and therefore, development, you know, takes place in that direction. David, we'd love to have your thoughts.

Yeah, like, first of all, I think it's important to not bring old bad habits with us to new platforms. Because, like, I think like, this is what is happening like in transformation from TVs to PCs, from PCs to mobile phones and everything. And we, first of all, what we do is kind of like, take what we have and kind of like adapt it to new technology. And I think, like every technology, or every milestone in the technology is also opportunity to do kind of like revolution or evolution of how we think and how we approach these technologies, how we behave there, and how we kind of like what we offer to users. And so like, I think this is kind of like really, really big topic, and we are focusing on it on in the applications, from like disabilities to different genders and stuff like that. So like, you always need to think about what is your users and how they will be using it. So that's definitely important, important part of the design.

Sonya, Veronica, if you would like to chime in as well,

We’d love that. Would I think? I think, you know, the there is, there is this topic, this the topic of regulation is, I hear, like, from various places. In Hong Kong, for example, the Hong Kong monetary authority did the report about the metaverse. They're starting to look at it. In Poland, there is a association of, like, large corporate enterprises looking into, you know, some, some sort of unified rules. I remember that, you know, I've seen, I've seen, I've seen these lots of takes on that, from from Unity, founders of unity software before, and etc. But it's so hard to look at it this way, at this point, when it's moved like changing constantly, you know, it's probably, it will be, I think it would be great to have some, some kind of a group of, maybe a group of People who are working towards, towards, towards that. But in a way, I don't know it. I do like the how much there is, like the mess that we are in kind of at the moment, because it's a creative mess So and, and maybe it's too early for it, for something to really come out of it, because this technology is really, is really just starting to flourish.

Do you want me to hop in? Yes, Okay, so for me, the question about, well, the questions of accessibility inclusivity are kind of different. But just as far as addressing accessibility first, I think that we've seen so much progress already since, since I've been around, I know in 2017 like I mentioned the story about me playing in a chair, and they were just baffled, you know, how could you possibly be doing this? And I'm just like, I mean, nobody told me I wasn't supposed to, and that's how I have to do it. So to one to one point, if you have people who want to use the technology and they're trying to do it, they're going to use it, and they're going to speak out, and then they're going to say, you know, I need this or that, and good developers and headset manufacturers. I mean, look at all the if you guys remember several years back when there was a lot of feedback from women with smaller heads that maybe they couldn't wear the headsets because they were bobbling around on their heads, or the big thing was Touch controllers to touch controllers were so big that some females couldn't get their fingers wrapped around the Touch controllers. And so there are lots of things where, as far as accessibility goes, there's some natural evolution that takes place of, if you have consumers that can't use the product because it's not built for them or made for them or accessible to them, then they're not going to use it. And if, if people want to sell a product or if they want to sell an app that's usable, they need to make it accessible. And so this is same thing with like when you talk about apps, let's say you have apps that have all red and blue and green. Well, people that have color blind issues, they need shapes and they need other things on there that allow them to be able to see the buttons and the dots and stuff for a seated player, I couldn't play a lot of apps, initially, games initially, because they would have levers on the ceiling that you had to pull down. And I'd be like, how am I supposed to reach that? I can't pull it to me, and I can't. I couldn't reach it by standing up, because sometimes I couldn't. And I said, Even if I can, because I sometimes could stand up, of course. But I said other people in a wheelchair can't do that. And so those are things that naturally come through usage. And so like, if you have people, when you start getting a lesser, lesser common things, for example, maybe people only has use of one eye, or maybe they're blind or they're deaf, and yes, people who are blind and deaf do actually use VR as well. We had a large deaf population in Echo arena, so our avatars, we actually created sign language with the avatars that we could use to communicate, versus having to speak because we couldn't use audio chat. But another common one, which I didn't know was people who have had cerebral palsy or maybe have had a stroke and they can only use one side of their body. So when you talk about controllers, if controllers typically are both hands, and so what happens if you have a person who can only use their left hand? And so all these are accessibility types of topics that have been. Of these things are being addressed, and they have been, and that's fantastic, but they continue to evolve through demand. If you have people who need these, these types of fixes, or they need things to be more usable, then the developers of apps and headsets and hardware stuff like that, they need to accommodate, and I don't mean accommodate, as in, go out of your way to make a special thing for one person out of a million that has a special circumstance I'm talking about. These are much more common cases than people realize. And if we want the metaverse to be accessible, then we need to make sure we look at those things just like you would a sidewalk in town. If you have people in wheelchairs, they can't be riding around town. If there are no sidewalks, it's dangerous. So you create sidewalks, and that way you give a large number of people access to the town, but at the same time, you also are providing a sidewalk that people who aren't in a wheelchair can walk on. So for me, that's part of what accessibility is about. It's about creating good, usable opportunities, apps, hardware and all that that everybody can benefit from.

Thank you, Sonya, that's a lovely answer, and very much agree with the points that you raised. Veronica, we have been talking about, you know, all of these different technologies and the challenges that are faced in terms of user adoption. But I'm curious, from the business point of view, what opportunities are businesses currently seeing in Metaverse, in the extended reality space? You, for example, work with brands in decentraland and other metaverses. What is it that brands want out of this experience of using and engaging with these technologies?

Yeah, actually, so I think at this point already we see a few avenues that brands are looking at. One is internal employee onboarding, internal meetings, internal use cases like town halls or training modules. So that's being developed. And maybe there was, you know, it's, maybe it's not too loud about it in the media, because those are, those are the tools that are completely internal and be used externally, for example, for something like virtual job fairs or employee branding experiences. But the other avenue is, is all the existing platforms, like using Roblox or Decentraland the same way as social media apps. And this is, this is, this is the part that I really like, because this is all about customer engagement, recreating customer engagement, and often looking at building a presence in various platforms. So here, here is the answer, probably, to the question one that I often hear, which one will be the main one? It doesn't have to be the main one. They all have different features, different use, user base, etc. So I work with a bank, for example, that is looking to build in all possible, available virtual platforms. And they because they see it as the future of online banking for them, they see, they see that they can have virtual branches, and it will actually be more accessible than having physical branches, because everybody can join, no matter if they're if they live in a small village far away From the city, or, you know, if they have disability, etc, they can, they can, they will have a better online banking experience than what they get now. And then. This leads to the third kind of Avenue, which is the 3D website. And this is something that is becoming more and more, I would say, in demand. And we, we started developing this, this white label solution as well. So this, this is just to take as an example, this, this bank, this, this would be, you know, a place that's probably hosted by them. It's like a three dimensional version of their website where you can have all the services and transactions done in a very secure way. A Yeah.

Thank you. Weronica, great example. David, I would love to have some examples from you as well. Working with brands. What are the main sort of return on investments that they are looking for in terms of using these technologies.

so early on, like I think, especially for the corporates, it's way how to communicate with the Gen Z and Gen alpha, because, like to be honest, like most of the big corporates don't have really reasonable strategy, how to, how to approach these generations. And like to creating something in Roblox or the central end, or something like going to where the Gen X and gel alpha are spending their time. That's, what they need to do and how, like, it's not direct return of investment. It's a long term shot like they, they are building the brands. They are building the like, the connections, and they need to start soon, because like, like, or their train will go and the thing is that this new era of internet and everything, it's kind of like speeding up the time and it's not about that the brands will stay relevant always, but it also allows new brands to pop up because, like, for example, like the bore tapes were a great example, even so they didn't end up, like, in best shape, but it was like internet phenomenon, which kind of like pop up because it was focusing on certain generations. And like, I see it like we are talking with the banks. We are talking with the big fashion houses. We are talking with the big beverages and everything, and they are trying to be where their current or the future customers are. And that's, that's actually the Rob I feel like the question like, right now, the Roblox is the leading metaverse. There is no question about it, especially in the in the in the terms of these generations. And I don't know how it will look like in five years or 10 years, but yeah, this is usually the easiest, easiest approach for the meta versus for the brands to kind of like, go there and communicate with their future, future customers.

Can I hop in with one comment real quick? Absolutely, so I love what David was saying about basically, to summarize the long game. And so one important thing to think about with the metaverse, NFTs, web3 and all this, you know, part of the whole point is that we're going from an environment where it's owned by a huge where you have ownership of many and then you have brands, for example, if you're talking about specifically with brands and ROI, if you are a person who looks at marketing and investment, you can't just think of NFTs or the involvement in web three and stuff as, oh, we're going to create this NFT sell a bunch of them, make a bunch of money, and then, yay. You know, that's a good ROI. That's not the way it works at all. People really need to be thinking about in terms of the long game, which is a phrase he used. And I love that, because that is what it is. So when I think about it, I think more in terms of, if you have one person who goes and markets. If you have, let's say somebody who's an influencer and they have a million followers, and you have, they market your product, let's say a Coke, you know, Coca Cola or whatever, then you've got 1 million reach by that one person to that product. But if you look at something like NFTs, then let's say you have 1 million people who buy an NFT or use an NFT. They get it free, whatever. It doesn't matter. The point is, let's say they have an NFT or they're using that, and then you have 1 million people who don't have any followers, but they don't even do social stuff, but they have 1 million people? Well, then those people go out, but let's say each of them has a reach of 10 to 20 people in their daily life. Then you've exponentially increased your reach by using a small NFT or a product that and a regular consumer or persons advertising versus one big person's putting a lot of money into a specific campaign. And I think I'm hopefully not being too confusing there. My point is that when you have lots of people using NFTs or using a brand, it is the lawn game, because you look around people who wear T shirts for their favorite sports team or whatever, that's ad. Advertisement. And so that's what NFT is doing in the virtual world, whether it be augmented, virtual phone, mobile, whatever. When you take these little items and you can use them in your games and in your businesses or on your phone wherever, then you're greatly increasing the visibility of that brand, which, in the long run, the increased visibility of that brand is actually going to exponentially increase your ROI. Hopefully, by the end of that I made the point there I was trying to make

Absolutely thank you, Sonya. I have a follow up question for all three of you. So the whole premise behind web three is, of course, to democratize pretty much everything. Access is democratized and ownership is democratized. So I want to pivot a little and focus on businesses who, let's say, want to not add XR, but one to be an XR based business, or not necessarily the web3 aspect of it, but really just make XR a core focus. Perhaps it is the focus of their business, or perhaps it's just the main channel through which they communicate with perhaps the new generation. How easy is it for a business to for a startup to get started in XR as opposed to web3, where web3 the barrier to entry is quite low. Because of the way that investment flow works, you don't necessarily have to have all the development ready by the time you get invested in so how does that compare to startups in the XR world? Please, any one of you feel free to take the question to begin with.

I'm going to jump in first, because I may have to leave a little bit earlier than it. But excuse me, but I do want to say before answering that question that it's important to remember that it's not just about, quote, getting into XR or getting into the web3 World people need to know that if they, if someone comes and says, Oh, I'm going to build you a metaverse. I'm going to build you a world in the metaverse, however they phrase, that you can build the most fantastic, astounding, beautiful, welcoming, whatever world you want, in a virtual environment, and you then still make absolutely no money off of it. You have to combine other things like you still have to have marketing, still have to build a community. You still have to let people know your world's there. I mean, if you have the best store within 100 miles, but no one knows it exists. And I'm talking about physical reality, let's say you have the greatest shoe store you know around your whole region, but nobody knows it's there. Well, nobody's going to come buy your shoes. And so I think that's a really important thing for people to remember. When they talk about getting into XR or getting into the metaverse, which is often what we hear from people, they'll build you a Metaverse world that there's a whole series of things that need to happen. It's not just about building the world itself. It's also about the marketing, the promotion, the building of the community, understanding how people are going to access it. Is it going to be virtual, augmented, mobile, all of those combined together, which is what we're seeing now, let's say, for example, even meta horizon worlds with Facebook, you know, one of the largest companies on the planet, and even they now, you can access the metaverse by various means. It's not only through a headset. So anyway, that's just a thought to throw in there that people need to be careful when they're thinking about, quote, jumping into the metaverse.

Yeah, I totally agree. Like, how it said, like, I think, like, the X, our Metaverse is the tool and, like, it's, it's a way, how, how to, how to achieve something. And I'm not sure if it's destination, if it's like, like to get into the x r is like, I want to be there because, to be there, I want to be there because it can bring something to me, or it can, like, bring something to my customers, or it can, like, evolve my business. But I don't think it should be like, the final destination, like, Okay, I've been there. I checked the check mark on the innovation list, some consolidation company printed for our corporate. I did it. I'm already innovative company, and we can move to other point.

I yeah, I will hop in and say real quick though, David, I completely agree with you, but we also, we do want to add the adent on that we definitely want people there. So if there's anybody listening, we're definitely saying we want you there, but we're just also trying to caution that there's other things you have to do you can't. Just like buy a house in the metaverse and never exist there exactly.

Weronica would love to have your thoughts.

I'm thinking, Well, I think like an entrepreneur, if you want to get into this space, it's possible, I think it's similar to web3. It's possible to get into it. It's very difficult to succeed. It's probably, yeah, this is, this is a little bit deceiving, because, yeah, this discussion about, like, how low the entry level is? Well, yeah, that's always also my concern, because, like, when I hear that that Metaverse projects, often, under our crypto projects, advertise themselves, saying, Yes, everyone can build their Metaverse space. Everyone can create their token. I'm not sure everyone wants to. I actually, most people just want to, you know, use things, certain things, and specialize in whatever the their special, you know, speciality is. So, yeah, this is, this is a little bit of a, I would say, probably, yeah, risk, yeah, risky. Part of this, because it can be tempting. It seems all like fun and games, but it isn't. And yeah, and I agree with both previous speakers about the need to think about it holistically and to and to be very careful about setting goals and being clear what the project's goals are and where the project is going. Because this, this technology, you know, it's like a river, it flows, it's and you can be, you can you know you have to know how to swim in it.

Love that, yes, you definitely need to learn how to swim. And even if you have no interest in swimming, you still need to learn how to swim. David, Weronica, thank you so much. I think that Sonia has left us. I would love to know as a parting thought, any words of wisdom for whether it's a retail user wanting to get into XR or a business wanting to dip a toe into it. What? What are your words of wisdom?

I would say, start small and but look at it long term. So don't overspend on, on one off project just to, just to show off more like I would just say, integrate it into your strategy. Look at, you know, growth strategy, rather than one off campaigns. Yeah. So then whatever they can afford, and within that growth mindset, I would, I would, I would suggest to do,

yeah, I agree. Because, like, the XR space and in immersive technology is not just like big meta versus and it's like, there's so much possibilities you can try. There's like, brands. Like, the easiest approach from the brands is just try create one Instagram filter for your brand or something like that, see how the people react on it. Because like, direction, like, we are working with a lot of businesses, and sometimes we started really small. We did one Instagram filter, then second, then they were okay, we want to invest more into it. And after two years, we were doing from them, like 10 projects. We were building big training centers in VR and stuff like that. And it's always about like, kind of like, sometimes hard to even, like, persuade the people inside of the organization and also outside of the organization. So like, starting small is like, really, really good. And like, I know that everybody was, oh, yeah, this needed this metaverse. Or, like Microsoft, this, this, and we want to compete with them, so we need to do our Metaverse too. And these approaches usually end up with disasters. So like sometimes starting small, or iterate, connect,

sir. Yeah, I've seen, I've seen these, these ideas too, yes, I completely agree.

Yeah. Like, like, it's like, I love pushing with people, like, when, when they brought you, but it's sometimes about like, kind of like, finding the experts, some like, do some deeper research and like, even test it, like, how it will be, how it will resonate in your company, and how it will resonate with your customers. Because, like, not every time it's like, you need to find the right approach.

David, Weronica, Sonya, thank you all so much for spending a very insightful hour with us. If you are listening to the show after the flag, please after the fact, or rather, please do follow our speakers on their favorite social media platforms, which I assume would be either Twitter or LinkedIn, seeing that we all end up having the same social media habits, and then I will catch you again next week for another episode of the Future of NFTs. Have a great week, guys. Speak to you next week. Cheers.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.