The Mind of the GC: Navigating Metrics, Trust & AI

Speaker: 00:00:02

Welcome to the Corporate Legal

Operations Consortium Podcast, where

2

: 00:00:06

we dive deep into conversations with

technology and legal operations, thought

3

: 00:00:10

leaders from across the ecosystem.

4

: 00:00:13

This is Clock Talk.

5

: 00:00:15

In this episode, clock Talk host

Jen McCarran is joined by: 2025

6

: 00:00:21

Closing keynote Irene Lou.

7

: 00:00:23

Former General counsel turned GC Coach,

whose career spans the D-O-J-F-T-C

8

: 00:00:30

and leadership roles at Blackberry

Lookout Checker, and hopin with a unique

9

: 00:00:36

blend of legal and finance expertise.

10

: 00:00:39

Irene shares how legal teams can

demonstrate their value beyond

11

: 00:00:42

traditional expectations, from

leveraging metrics to showcase

12

: 00:00:47

impact, to building trust and aligning

legal strategy with business goals.

13

: 00:00:52

This conversation is packed

with insights on how legal ops

14

: 00:00:55

professionals can elevate their role.

15

: 00:00:58

Irene also explores the evolving

landscape of AI and legal technology

16

: 00:01:03

offering strategies for staying

ahead in a rapidly changing industry.

17

: 00:01:08

Irene, welcome to Clock Talk.

18

: 00:01:11

Welcome to the podcast.

19

: 00:01:13

Thanks so much for having me here,

Jen, it was really a pleasure

20

: 00:01:18

to have you this year join us at

Clock's Global Institute in Vegas.

21

: 00:01:22

You had a wonderful closing keynote.

22

: 00:01:25

Then you did a fireside chat

with my friend and fellow

23

: 00:01:28

board member Francis Poso.

24

: 00:01:31

You talked a lot about general

council life and land where you've.

25

: 00:01:35

Cut your teeth, so to speak.

26

: 00:01:37

Mm-hmm.

27

: 00:01:37

So maybe we can start with a little

bit of context on who you are, where

28

: 00:01:42

you've worked, how you've worked, and

a little bit about Hypergrowth gc.

29

: 00:01:48

So my background and one of the topics

that we discussed at the keynote is

30

: 00:01:52

the mindset of a general counsel.

31

: 00:01:53

And the reason why we discussed this

is because I have empathy for the GCC.

32

: 00:01:58

Having been a general counsel, I like to

call myself a recovering general counsel.

33

: 00:02:03

Oh, okay.

34

: 00:02:04

But I started on my career, not

in-house, but in government.

35

: 00:02:07

I worked at the DOJ, at the FTC,

and then I worked at large tech

36

: 00:02:10

company called Blackberry back in

the day when Blackberry was a thing,

37

: 00:02:14

I remember them corty keyboards.

38

: 00:02:16

Yes, the core keyboards,

everyone remembers the keyboards.

39

: 00:02:20

I still remember them very fondly, but

sadly we have moved past that stage.

40

: 00:02:26

You know, seeing that we

have moved past that stage.

41

: 00:02:28

I obviously had to move to other

companies after that as well too.

42

: 00:02:32

And I moved to a couple tech startups.

43

: 00:02:35

I first moved to a company called

Lookout where I was a associate journal

44

: 00:02:38

counsel, and then I went to a company

called Checker and Hopin, where I

45

: 00:02:41

was a general counselor at both.

46

: 00:02:43

And not only was I the

general C at both, but I also.

47

: 00:02:46

Wore many different hats.

48

: 00:02:47

So at Checker I ran the customer

education team, ran policy, also

49

: 00:02:52

ran finance for an interim period.

50

: 00:02:53

And at Hopin I was also not only the

chief legal officer, but the CFO as well.

51

: 00:02:58

Can I pause you right there?

52

: 00:02:59

Did you say you ran finance

for an interim period?

53

: 00:03:03

Yes.

54

: 00:03:04

Yes.

55

: 00:03:04

Not that we can't have multi skill

sets, but where along the way

56

: 00:03:07

did you pick up the skillset that

you are competent to run finance?

57

: 00:03:12

Yeah.

58

: 00:03:12

Well, I ran finance at two companies,

not only just one, so I started out

59

: 00:03:16

my Korean investment banking after

college, but I started out my career.

60

: 00:03:22

In investment banking during nine

11, which is probably the worst

61

: 00:03:26

year that you could possibly

start in finance and banking.

62

: 00:03:29

And so I quickly pivoted.

63

: 00:03:31

That's when I started my career in tech

and I quickly pivoted to do anything

64

: 00:03:35

but working in lower Manhattan.

65

: 00:03:37

Yeah, but that's so interesting.

66

: 00:03:39

I'm like, there must be a finance

person buried beneath all the

67

: 00:03:43

recovering general counsel outfits,

which actually gave me a lot of empathy

68

: 00:03:48

for the CFO role and the reason why.

69

: 00:03:51

I think that hat fit was that I

was able to not only think like a

70

: 00:03:57

business leader from a GC perspective,

but also as a finance leader.

71

: 00:04:01

And so some of the things that we're

gonna be talking about, how I think

72

: 00:04:05

metrics are so important is probably

because I also wore the right hat.

73

: 00:04:10

I'm just going to call it early.

74

: 00:04:11

You're the dream general counsel

because you get it because you've run

75

: 00:04:16

a business from a p and l perspective.

76

: 00:04:19

And you have a numbers brain

in there beneath it all.

77

: 00:04:22

So your pivot was into

law, it sounds like.

78

: 00:04:25

Yeah, my pivot was first I started out

in finance and then I pivoted to law.

79

: 00:04:30

Got it.

80

: 00:04:31

Okay.

81

: 00:04:32

And then pivoted to tech like you.

82

: 00:04:34

So what a storied path and career and

number of hats and mindsets across, it

83

: 00:04:40

sounds like all different scale companies.

84

: 00:04:43

Where along the way I am

curious, did you discover this

85

: 00:04:47

thing called legal operations?

86

: 00:04:49

And what was that moment

like when you saw what.

87

: 00:04:52

Folks like us could bring to

folks like you in those roles.

88

: 00:04:56

I wore the general counsel hat

twice, and one of the things that

89

: 00:05:00

I also didn't mention earlier in my

background is that after I left my

90

: 00:05:03

last company as a general counsel is

I'm now coaching and mentoring general

91

: 00:05:07

counsels at many different companies

and companies of different sizes.

92

: 00:05:11

So I'm still very in touch with the

general counsel seat and the issues

93

: 00:05:16

that they're facing, and if anything.

94

: 00:05:19

What I'm noticing, even from the time

that I was a general counsel and, and my

95

: 00:05:22

first general counsel role was in 2016,

so almost a decade ago, there was a huge

96

: 00:05:27

movement just in general for businesses

to focus on data, data-driven decisions.

97

: 00:05:32

And as you're looking at data, you

have to be data-centric all across the

98

: 00:05:37

business if you wanna seat at the table.

99

: 00:05:39

And so in order to justify anything

within a business to a finance

100

: 00:05:43

team, to A CEO, you needed data.

101

: 00:05:46

And that's when really.

102

: 00:05:47

You needed to operationalize the legal

team and not just speak in high level

103

: 00:05:52

risks, but really quantify those risks,

quantify the contrast, quantify what is

104

: 00:05:57

coming in through the door from a workload

perspective, quantify your budget.

105

: 00:06:02

Everything really went back to

data and metrics, and so it was

106

: 00:06:06

so important to really lay the

foundations for that in order to

107

: 00:06:10

be successful as a general counsel.

108

: 00:06:12

Do general counsels and chief

legal officers, do they get that?

109

: 00:06:18

My perception is that they know that

intellectually, but as they watch us

110

: 00:06:24

legal ops professionals help turn all

the workflows into data driven workflows

111

: 00:06:28

that spit out metrics, they don't

always seem to know how to translate

112

: 00:06:34

that into meaning for the performance

of their role or their leadership or

113

: 00:06:38

their department to their leaders.

114

: 00:06:40

And it's very true.

115

: 00:06:41

A lot of the general counsels find

themselves trying to figure out how

116

: 00:06:46

to showcase the value of the business.

117

: 00:06:48

They know in their mind that they

have to be a strategic leader.

118

: 00:06:52

They know in their mind that they

have to be a business leader.

119

: 00:06:56

But to translate all of that, you

have to translate it into business

120

: 00:06:59

speak, which means a lot of

operationalizing and a lot of the common

121

: 00:07:05

complaints that I shared at Clock.

122

: 00:07:07

Our, the underlying theme is that

the business just doesn't understand

123

: 00:07:12

the general counsel because there's

three common closed door complaints

124

: 00:07:17

that I hear all the time from general

counsels, and the first one is

125

: 00:07:21

that my CEO, my CFO or some C-level

just does not understand my job.

126

: 00:07:28

And the second complaint I hear oftentimes

from general counsels is that I'm asked

127

: 00:07:33

to do too much with limited resources

or with too much, with too little.

128

: 00:07:39

And the third one is I just don't have a

seat at the table and I'm not being heard.

129

: 00:07:43

And if you think about all

three of those complaints, these

130

: 00:07:48

are closed door complaints.

131

: 00:07:49

Of course you won't hear them

expressing it to other team members.

132

: 00:07:53

But when you think about it and if you

step back, what's underlying all of it is

133

: 00:07:58

that the CEO and the business just doesn't

understand what legal team is doing,

134

: 00:08:02

nor the value that they're bringing.

135

: 00:08:04

And like you said, a lot of

general counsels know that.

136

: 00:08:07

In their mind that they have to

bring value, strategic value, but

137

: 00:08:11

they don't know how to translate it.

138

: 00:08:13

And that is where legal ops can

really come in to help translate

139

: 00:08:19

all of what legal is doing into.

140

: 00:08:23

Business speak that the CEO and

the business can understand.

141

: 00:08:27

And one of the things that we talked about

at Clock really was a simple framework

142

: 00:08:31

that I shared that I created called A

BC, and it was basically based on Alec

143

: 00:08:36

Baldwin's always be closing, but instead

of focusing on always be closing like

144

: 00:08:40

sales, the way that legal ops can help.

145

: 00:08:44

Legal leaders and general counsels who are

so swamped is by helping them communicate.

146

: 00:08:49

So A, B, C is for always be communicating,

and so really help the general counsel

147

: 00:08:54

communicate the value of the legal team.

148

: 00:08:56

And we can definitely talk about how, but

that's one of the key things that legal

149

: 00:09:01

ops partners can help general counsels

do is really showcase the value of the

150

: 00:09:06

legal team because they might not have

the bandwidth to be thinking about that.

151

: 00:09:11

Do you have any advice for how.

152

: 00:09:13

In order to do that, we have to close

the chasm of GCs enabling legal ops

153

: 00:09:20

to be in that conversation, to be in

their head, to be in their strategy.

154

: 00:09:23

I think we are in a lot of places and in

a lot of companies, but I think we are

155

: 00:09:27

also still emerging, and sometimes a legal

ops outfit will come online and it starts

156

: 00:09:34

with a paralegal manager, senior manager.

157

: 00:09:37

Running a project, they might

be very heads down, very

158

: 00:09:40

tactical on the details of that.

159

: 00:09:43

And I don't think a GC at a

Fortune 100 company needs to know

160

: 00:09:47

necessarily the details of the

implementation of a contract system.

161

: 00:09:52

But how do we close that chasm to

get them to want it and need it,

162

: 00:09:56

and turn to legal ops for that.

163

: 00:09:59

Well, I would say you're right.

164

: 00:10:00

I don't think the general counsel

needs to know the in depth of

165

: 00:10:03

the implementation timeline, the

cross-functional partners that's going to

166

: 00:10:08

be involved for implementing this tool.

167

: 00:10:12

What they do need to know is what

is the cost of that tool, because

168

: 00:10:17

they'll need to get approval for it.

169

: 00:10:19

The other thing is what is

the output of that tool?

170

: 00:10:22

Why are we implementing it?

171

: 00:10:23

And what metrics and what are we

going to be delivering from a business

172

: 00:10:27

value by implementing that tool?

173

: 00:10:29

Just like any business tool throughout an

organization, you wanna justify why you're

174

: 00:10:35

purchasing that tool and most of the time.

175

: 00:10:38

Like you said, a lot of legal ops

professionals, they expand their role.

176

: 00:10:41

They start with maybe a paralegal.

177

: 00:10:43

They might start with one tool.

178

: 00:10:44

Oftentimes it's a contract

management tool, and then they

179

: 00:10:47

might expand into billing tools.

180

: 00:10:49

They might expand into

workflow tools, and so there's.

181

: 00:10:53

Somewhat of a checklist of tools

that most legal teams will have,

182

: 00:10:58

but the key part that you as a legal

ops professional, want to inform

183

: 00:11:03

the general counsel are the outputs.

184

: 00:11:05

What are all of the workflows

that are coming out?

185

: 00:11:07

So if you're implementing a

contract management system.

186

: 00:11:10

The general counsel will care about

how many contracts are we touching,

187

: 00:11:14

how many are we redlining, how many

are we actually closing without any

188

: 00:11:18

red lines, because that's a win that

shows high efficiency in the legal

189

: 00:11:22

team, or how many are being stuck in

certain team or on the opposing side.

190

: 00:11:28

There's a lot of metrics that are being

pulled out by these implementations.

191

: 00:11:32

And if the legal ops partner can tie

those metrics from those implemented

192

: 00:11:39

tools to the larger business goals, the

general counsel will care and should care.

193

: 00:11:45

Those are great examples of what we

should all be, not just fluent in as

194

: 00:11:51

legal ops professionals, but bursting

with, we should have those kinds of

195

: 00:11:55

workflow outputs as lists for them almost.

196

: 00:11:59

Look at and go, yeah, I do

wanna know contract volume.

197

: 00:12:02

Percent that went straight

through versus a red line cycle,

198

: 00:12:06

time measurements, et cetera.

199

: 00:12:08

And they might not know that when you,

like we said, this is an emerging field

200

: 00:12:13

and we have to educate them on that.

201

: 00:12:15

Well, not only that, I mean, when Francis

and I were talking at Clock, there were

202

: 00:12:19

a couple things that we talked about.

203

: 00:12:21

One of the things that we

need to do is not only.

204

: 00:12:24

Have that dashboard be readily

available for the general counsel

205

: 00:12:28

to pull the metrics themselves.

206

: 00:12:30

So the legal operations partners need

to train the teams to use it, to be

207

: 00:12:34

able to be fluent in it so that even

the general counsel themselves can

208

: 00:12:39

use it and pull metrics themselves.

209

: 00:12:41

But one of the key underlying complaints

that we talked about earlier about.

210

: 00:12:45

The business not understanding the value

of legal and the reason why you need to

211

: 00:12:50

A, B, C always be communicating is the

fact that the business may not always

212

: 00:12:55

know the value that legal is bringing.

213

: 00:12:58

So one of the things that we

talked about at Clock was truly

214

: 00:13:02

how you need to showcase it.

215

: 00:13:04

So you have to present it, whether it's

in a newsletter or if it's a Fortune

216

: 00:13:08

500 company and they have executive team

meetings, they will have dashboards,

217

: 00:13:13

or they will do executive reviews.

218

: 00:13:15

And so you wanna collate the key metrics

from legal that ties to the business

219

: 00:13:20

and showcase it on an ongoing basis.

220

: 00:13:23

And that is truly where legal ops can

shine because you're able to pull these

221

: 00:13:27

metrics that tie to the larger overall

business goals and you're showcasing a

222

: 00:13:32

week after week or monthly or in such

way that is very easy to read and digest.

223

: 00:13:39

For all other C-level, not just the

legal leader, but the CFO that's

224

: 00:13:43

trying to figure out why is there

such a big budget for legal and why

225

: 00:13:47

does legal need that many contract

lawyers and commercial lawyers.

226

: 00:13:51

And so these are all ways, in many

ways, to educate the business as well

227

: 00:13:57

about the value that legal brings.

228

: 00:14:01

And now a brief message from our sponsor.

229

: 00:14:04

Spending too much time and money on

legal translations from contracts and

230

: 00:14:09

research to live multilingual meetings.

231

: 00:14:11

Deep L ensures everyone and everything

is understood with the world's most

232

: 00:14:16

accurate translator behind you.

233

: 00:14:18

Your team can confidently unleash its

legal expertise wherever it operates.

234

: 00:14:24

And because it's enterprise secure,

your data always stays confidential.

235

: 00:14:29

See why over 50% of the Fortune

500 trust deep L'S language ai.

236

: 00:14:35

Visit deep l.com.

237

: 00:14:38

You're reminding me of jobs passed.

238

: 00:14:41

I've had in legal ops, I once worked for

A CLO who was economics undergrad major,

239

: 00:14:48

and did exactly what you just described.

240

: 00:14:51

Quarterly executive business meetings,

leadership meetings, walked in with

241

: 00:14:56

nothing but metrics outputs from us.

242

: 00:14:59

The legal ops team.

243

: 00:15:00

I helped with the slides and like

translating a bunch of those things

244

: 00:15:03

into the story he needed to tell.

245

: 00:15:06

Compare and contrast to another CLOI

worked for, I don't know their undergrad

246

: 00:15:10

major, but it definitely wasn't economics.

247

: 00:15:13

Undergrad majors sometimes play

an interesting, you know, fact as

248

: 00:15:17

to how we all start off in this.

249

: 00:15:20

They were more qualitative and

in the air, and were often asked

250

: 00:15:26

by the CFO, why do you have this

many people in the department?

251

: 00:15:31

It made up more than 10% of the company,

something like that, which is, that's

252

: 00:15:35

big for a legal department folks.

253

: 00:15:37

Yes, that is.

254

: 00:15:38

Yeah.

255

: 00:15:38

Our ops job there was just trying

to cut time in half and put in

256

: 00:15:42

some of those systems that make

workflows, that output data to

257

: 00:15:45

start giving measurement to things.

258

: 00:15:48

Hard legal ops versus hypergrowth.

259

: 00:15:51

That was hard.

260

: 00:15:52

I would say one of the ways also that

legal ops can help communicate the

261

: 00:15:56

value of the legal team is not only

in executive reviews because smaller

262

: 00:15:59

companies may not have executive reviews.

263

: 00:16:01

And so when I started as a general

counsel of this company called

264

: 00:16:04

Checker, back in the day, it was

only a 60% company grew to 600 plus.

265

: 00:16:09

Multi-billions while I was there,

and it's even bigger now, but in its

266

: 00:16:14

initial days we didn't have regular

executive team meetings and so, or we

267

: 00:16:18

had regular executive team meetings,

but we didn't have regular executive

268

: 00:16:22

reviews of dashboards and metrics.

269

: 00:16:24

And so what I ended up doing was I

actually created a newsletter that

270

: 00:16:29

we sent out to directors and up.

271

: 00:16:31

So that they could see all the

amazing things that the legal team

272

: 00:16:34

was doing, and I wanted to showcase

that in order to show all of the value

273

: 00:16:39

that we're bringing to the company

that may not be obvious to them.

274

: 00:16:42

And so we created our own path to

showcase and communicate the value.

275

: 00:16:47

And so it doesn't have to be

existing reviews, but you could

276

: 00:16:51

create newsletters, you could create

dashboards that are available.

277

: 00:16:55

You could even use trainings when

you're training other team members to

278

: 00:16:58

showcase some of the wins that you have.

279

: 00:17:00

To showcase the value, and there's so

many opportunities that Legal Ops can use

280

: 00:17:05

their network within the company to also

share and communicate the value that the

281

: 00:17:10

general counsel may not be thinking about.

282

: 00:17:12

Yeah.

283

: 00:17:13

It sounds like what you're

describing is marketing.

284

: 00:17:16

Yeah, in many ways.

285

: 00:17:17

Yeah.

286

: 00:17:17

Having an inner marketing wing

attached to the vehicle so that any

287

: 00:17:22

opportunity you get, live setting,

written setting, or a dashboard.

288

: 00:17:27

Setting, fill it with something

and be able to show qualitative,

289

: 00:17:31

quantitative stories, value stories.

290

: 00:17:33

And when you said you did the newsletter,

was that to directors across the

291

: 00:17:37

company to show like cross-functionally

everyone, what were you?

292

: 00:17:40

Yeah, it was directors and up.

293

: 00:17:42

Because if you think about it,

legal touches so many areas.

294

: 00:17:44

It's not just commercials,

not just revenue.

295

: 00:17:46

It's product, it's sales.

296

: 00:17:49

HR people.

297

: 00:17:51

There are so many parts of the

organization that legal touches

298

: 00:17:54

that people just don't see.

299

: 00:17:55

And if you don't showcase it,

people don't even think about it.

300

: 00:17:59

Those are great suggestions.

301

: 00:18:01

So you're at a firm called Hypergrowth

GC now, and you do coaching for leaders

302

: 00:18:09

on being better business leaders.

303

: 00:18:10

Are a lot of the folks you coach

legal leaders, do they skew legal?

304

: 00:18:15

Yeah, so hyper growth GC is a

company that I created after I

305

: 00:18:18

left my last general counsel job.

306

: 00:18:21

And so I coach many general counsels,

and a lot of them are first time

307

: 00:18:26

general counsels, and having been

a first time general counsel and.

308

: 00:18:31

I have a lot of empathy for that

seat because a lot of general

309

: 00:18:34

counsels move up and become general

counsels because they were smart,

310

: 00:18:39

because they worked really hard.

311

: 00:18:40

They rolled up their sleeves and

they were substantively really good.

312

: 00:18:45

But once you become a general

counsel, what you don't realize when

313

: 00:18:48

you're second, even if you are A A

GC, let's say you are a deputy gc.

314

: 00:18:52

You don't realize how much politics

come into play and how much

315

: 00:18:57

talent dynamics are so important.

316

: 00:18:59

So in many instances, I also help a

lot of general counsels not only think

317

: 00:19:03

about showcasing the value, which

this is, while this may seem obvious,

318

: 00:19:08

it's also not necessarily always

obvious to general counsels either.

319

: 00:19:12

And then to also how to navigate

the talent dynamics as well too.

320

: 00:19:17

What a truth in business

in that career case.

321

: 00:19:20

But I find in all cases that the higher

you go, the harder the wind blows, and

322

: 00:19:26

man does it blow hard with politics.

323

: 00:19:30

Whoa.

324

: 00:19:30

It just takes a lot of time and bandwidth

and problem solving, but with a different.

325

: 00:19:36

Set of skills.

326

: 00:19:37

You don't always realize when we're

younger that you need these for

327

: 00:19:41

the work world, like soft skills,

personal, social, emotional, EQ skills.

328

: 00:19:46

Do you talk about that

with them in your coaching?

329

: 00:19:49

Yeah, of course.

330

: 00:19:50

I mean, I always say it takes

IQ to get to the top and it

331

: 00:19:53

takes EQ to stay on the top.

332

: 00:19:54

That's literally what I share with

every general counsel that I coach.

333

: 00:19:58

Because it really is eq.

334

: 00:20:00

It's EQ plus iq, but really it's

EQ that keeps you at the top.

335

: 00:20:04

And so, and which is

part of the reason why I.

336

: 00:20:08

Really think legal ops is such an

incredibly important arm of the

337

: 00:20:12

general counsel because the general

counsel, frankly, are so busy.

338

: 00:20:17

They are constantly fighting crisis fires.

339

: 00:20:20

They're navigating talent dynamics

upward, sideways, and downward.

340

: 00:20:24

They also have so many different

laws and there's so many new laws

341

: 00:20:28

that have emerged even in the.

342

: 00:20:29

Most recent years that they're navigating,

they're now gray laws because there's

343

: 00:20:33

areas where laws will likely emerge, so

you will have to look around the corner.

344

: 00:20:38

And not only that, there are now tariffs,

eos, and a lot of different politics

345

: 00:20:43

as well, that's impacting their job.

346

: 00:20:46

And so to have someone that they

can trust to help them showcase

347

: 00:20:50

the value of the team is vital

to the organization, to the legal

348

: 00:20:55

organization, and to the general counsel.

349

: 00:20:57

So with you being in the Bay Area

and leading and running hypergrowth

350

: 00:21:02

gc, you talk to a lot of new general

councils, and when you talk about

351

: 00:21:08

laws changing, we think about the

emergence of AI and generative AI and

352

: 00:21:13

all the unfounded and unprecedented law

that's gonna get settled now ongoing.

353

: 00:21:19

How to operate with these technologies and

all the regions of the world in a tariff,

354

: 00:21:26

political, high stakes environment.

355

: 00:21:28

What's on their minds,

you know, their mindset.

356

: 00:21:31

Is there something we don't know about

as legal ops professionals that you could

357

: 00:21:35

window us into in their mindsets that

would help us partner with them better?

358

: 00:21:40

I always felt like I walked in with

a ton of minutia to my GC or CLO.

359

: 00:21:46

I don't always know where they are or what

crisis or battle they're putting out in

360

: 00:21:50

the world of business on a global scale.

361

: 00:21:54

Anything you can give us

advice on one of the other.

362

: 00:21:58

Things I do in addition to hyper growth.

363

: 00:22:00

GC is I'm an executive in residence

at Berkeley Law and I have a webinar

364

: 00:22:04

series called Coffee Break with Irene as

well, where I speak to a lot of general

365

: 00:22:08

counsels of very large companies as well.

366

: 00:22:11

I recently talked to the Amazon

General counsel, the Waymo General

367

: 00:22:14

Counsel, Mars Wrigley, so I'm in

tune with a lot of general counsels,

368

: 00:22:19

but what I can say is that.

369

: 00:22:22

What they're prioritizing now is

different for every general counsel.

370

: 00:22:26

There is no one thing that every

general counsel is struggling with.

371

: 00:22:30

The fires for every business is

different, which is why it's so important

372

: 00:22:34

for every legal ops professional,

even when they're thinking metrics

373

: 00:22:38

or even if they're thinking systems,

to find out from the general counsel.

374

: 00:22:42

And also learn as you're

looking at the business, what

375

: 00:22:45

are the business priorities?

376

: 00:22:47

What are the goals and

what are your goals?

377

: 00:22:49

General counsel like, what

do you have for this year?

378

: 00:22:52

And to align with those goals because

every organization is different

379

: 00:22:55

and there is no cookie cutter top

of mind issue that every general

380

: 00:22:59

counsel is grappling right now because

each organization is so different.

381

: 00:23:03

Yeah, that's a great, great point.

382

: 00:23:05

So for us, it's a matter of

learning the business, learning

383

: 00:23:09

the business goals, priorities.

384

: 00:23:12

Learning your general counsel's

goals against those, and then

385

: 00:23:16

studying the fires and being up

to the minute, up to the second on

386

: 00:23:20

those fires and being able to adapt.

387

: 00:23:24

The strategy we put together around

them with those emerging events.

388

: 00:23:29

And that's not all on the general

counsel to tell you in some

389

: 00:23:33

perfectly dictated list of things.

390

: 00:23:35

Where I worked last at Netflix, our

GC was really good about putting out

391

: 00:23:39

a weekly newsletter to all of legal.

392

: 00:23:41

So we got a great business up to

the minute update from his mind, but

393

: 00:23:46

it was still on me to go around and

speak to his leaders, his directs.

394

: 00:23:51

Direct reports to understand more

dimension beneath those fires and those

395

: 00:23:56

things going on and how to map to that.

396

: 00:23:59

And of course, other business

leaders across the company, it's

397

: 00:24:02

important to not only map to that,

but map the right tools to that.

398

: 00:24:06

Because I was at clock this year and

the expo was incredible, but at the same

399

: 00:24:14

time, it shows you the breadth and the

redundancy as well of many legal tools.

400

: 00:24:20

And so when we entrust our legal

ops professional to legal op ops

401

: 00:24:27

partner to implement a tool, we're

asking you to make sure you vet.

402

: 00:24:32

The tools correctly because there

are so many that also oversell.

403

: 00:24:38

And so you want, they all oversell.

404

: 00:24:40

They all oversell, they all have

AI right now, and they're all

405

: 00:24:43

doing amazing things with ai.

406

: 00:24:45

So you really need to look under the

hood to see how will it fit with the

407

: 00:24:49

organization and the goals that you have.

408

: 00:24:52

And because as you know, it requires

so many cross-functional partners

409

: 00:24:57

to implement such tools too.

410

: 00:24:59

And.

411

: 00:25:00

If it's not implemented well and

you just spent a lot of money, it

412

: 00:25:05

also is just, is just not a good

look for the general counsel.

413

: 00:25:09

So we want to entrust our

legal ops partners to find vet.

414

: 00:25:16

Get great tools and there's so many great

tools out there and there's so many newer

415

: 00:25:20

tools than when I was a general counsel.

416

: 00:25:22

Even all workflow tools.

417

: 00:25:23

I mean, when I look at streamline

and checkbox, there are all these

418

: 00:25:27

tools that allow you you to get

such granular data that we didn't

419

: 00:25:31

have before about even turnaround

times down to which team has it.

420

: 00:25:36

These are really great

visibility tools that.

421

: 00:25:39

Can be helpful.

422

: 00:25:40

Even on the billing side, we see so

many different types of billing tools.

423

: 00:25:45

Pursuit is doing RFP type work, which we

didn't have before back in the day either.

424

: 00:25:49

And then there's all these other AI

enabled tools that I saw all throughout

425

: 00:25:53

the entire Clock Expo, and that just

made me excited, but at the same time.

426

: 00:26:02

If I were a gc, I thought I would wanna

make sure my legal ops partner is vetting

427

: 00:26:08

those 10 contract management tools that

are all having this AI layer of review.

428

: 00:26:14

Which one will actually

work best for our team.

429

: 00:26:18

Here's the truth about

the contract technology.

430

: 00:26:20

They're all the same, and it largely comes

down to the humans putting it in and how.

431

: 00:26:26

We map it.

432

: 00:26:26

Sure.

433

: 00:26:26

There's some technical things that you

wanna make sure when you bring that in,

434

: 00:26:30

it jives with the rest of the company's

software and integrations, et cetera.

435

: 00:26:35

But it largely doesn't matter.

436

: 00:26:36

It's being able to map it to

the workflows of the business.

437

: 00:26:40

And you're making me think and putting

this lens over of all the tools, um, air

438

: 00:26:45

quoting me and my team put in at Netflix.

439

: 00:26:50

One of the most profound ones were

the data dashboards, the financial

440

: 00:26:56

outside council management wing of the

team built for every single leader,

441

: 00:27:01

and then one for the GC himself.

442

: 00:27:04

That was what turned on the lights

when Netflix had a few bad quarters

443

: 00:27:08

and had to really start thinking

about budgeting and articulating

444

: 00:27:13

the quantification of the budget.

445

: 00:27:15

Like you said earlier, they didn't

have that muscle in place prior.

446

: 00:27:18

It was.

447

: 00:27:19

Hypergrowth days with startup style

funding and money and revenue and success.

448

: 00:27:24

And those dashboards turned a light

bulb on for a lot of those leaders.

449

: 00:27:28

And then we started to add on

different views onto the dashboards

450

: 00:27:32

of other things in their.

451

: 00:27:35

Practice areas that they

cared about quantifying.

452

: 00:27:38

Meanwhile, we spent millions of dollars

on all these other cool AI tools and

453

: 00:27:42

put in ACL M, all the things, but people

cared less about that than the dashboards.

454

: 00:27:48

And we manually built the dashboards

and we couldn't do it on Tableau

455

: 00:27:52

because it was actually clunky

to get into Tableau with the

456

: 00:27:56

instance they had there at Netflix.

457

: 00:27:58

Long, boring story, but we went and

got our own business intelligence tool.

458

: 00:28:03

We pulled in, Domo had our own instance

of it, so we could just crank and not only

459

: 00:28:09

push out a dashboard, but anyone in legal

could log into that dashboard so simply

460

: 00:28:16

and touch it and interact or annotate

like it had all these cool features

461

: 00:28:20

that just weren't live in Tableau.

462

: 00:28:22

'cause Tableau was for data science.

463

: 00:28:25

Predominantly, and I couldn't even get

legal to log into what we built there,

464

: 00:28:29

so I was then printing static PDFs from

au and I'm like, this is very: 2005

465

: 00:28:36

It's so interesting.

466

: 00:28:37

There's two things that you

just mentioned, the dashboards.

467

: 00:28:40

I think the dashboards are so key

and one of the ideal ways from

468

: 00:28:44

a dashboard perspective, if you

could create it, is create metrics.

469

: 00:28:50

And a dashboard that everybody uses.

470

: 00:28:52

If the company is using Looker

or a certain dashboard, use that

471

: 00:28:57

dashboard to showcase your wins.

472

: 00:29:00

In the same way, because if it is

difficult for another team to gather

473

: 00:29:07

that data, there's a level of friction

which is added to your ability to

474

: 00:29:12

showcase and market what legal is doing.

475

: 00:29:14

So to the extent that the company is

using Unified Dashboard, use that.

476

: 00:29:19

And the second thing,

we talked a lot about.

477

: 00:29:22

Metrics around sales and contracts,

but really, like you said, the

478

: 00:29:27

other biggest metric that the

general counsel is required to

479

: 00:29:32

be constantly aware of is budget.

480

: 00:29:35

There's such pressures to.

481

: 00:29:38

Forecast your budget and

to stay within budget.

482

: 00:29:42

And initially, even a decade ago, the

main tools that were available were

483

: 00:29:47

just billing tools, billing trackers.

484

: 00:29:49

Basically, law firms send their

bills and you have it in one

485

: 00:29:52

system, and so you're able to work

with your finance to track that.

486

: 00:29:55

But now there are tools, you

know I mentioned pursuit earlier.

487

: 00:30:00

And I'm sure there are others as well,

that basically allow you to try to do

488

: 00:30:05

an RFP or try to create ways to have

lower costs, legal fees, outside counsel

489

: 00:30:12

fees, and manage outside counsel in

different ways than traditionally before.

490

: 00:30:16

So what really excited me about

Clock was seeing all these

491

: 00:30:20

different types of companies.

492

: 00:30:23

Really build on ideas

and tools that we needed.

493

: 00:30:26

Yeah.

494

: 00:30:26

And now they're engaged.

495

: 00:30:27

We're there.

496

: 00:30:28

Yeah, now they're there.

497

: 00:30:29

So now there's even more opportunities for

legal ops to take even more of a central

498

: 00:30:35

seat to help the general counsel from a

cost budget perspective, which CFOs will

499

: 00:30:40

also love too, and they'll love you.

500

: 00:30:43

If you can help with that and in the same

way workflows, if you can do that too.

501

: 00:30:47

CFOs love legal ops everywhere

I've been, once we got their

502

: 00:30:52

attention with something.

503

: 00:30:53

Some tool, some initiative.

504

: 00:30:55

We always got such warm receipt

from them because we speak their

505

: 00:30:59

language, but we're based in legal,

but we speak the finance language.

506

: 00:31:04

They love it after they get over

the paying for Yes, of course.

507

: 00:31:08

They, they need to be shown, like

you said, the cost and the benefit.

508

: 00:31:12

Irene, I could talk to you

all day about this stuff.

509

: 00:31:14

You're a wealth of knowledge,

but my last question here is when

510

: 00:31:18

building the partnership between a

general counsel and the legal ops.

511

: 00:31:23

Professional.

512

: 00:31:25

What are key qualities that

you look for in a legal ops

513

: 00:31:29

professional in that they're ready

to handle high stakes situations?

514

: 00:31:34

Some of these global business problems

that are on the desk of the gc?

515

: 00:31:38

What are some qualities so we

can think about how to always

516

: 00:31:42

be skilling up and re-skilling?

517

: 00:31:45

Yeah.

518

: 00:31:45

One of the most important things that.

519

: 00:31:49

I want from any partner in a legal team

that I work with when I was in the general

520

: 00:31:54

counsel seat is someone that I trust.

521

: 00:31:56

And so hopefully you have showcased

your talents and your ability before

522

: 00:32:02

that so that if there is any time of

crisis or any times where the business

523

: 00:32:08

really, the business and the general

counsel really needs you, that you

524

: 00:32:12

have built that relationship of trust.

525

: 00:32:14

But to build that relationship

of trust, it requires a lot of.

526

: 00:32:18

Hard work, obviously, but also proactivity

the general counsel has as a job to

527

: 00:32:23

be able to look around the corner and

if they have partners in their team

528

: 00:32:27

who are able to bring you solutions

before you even ask if they know that.

529

: 00:32:32

Budget is going to be a big issue,

and they found some tool that can help

530

: 00:32:37

them do that and reduce their budget

by X percent by only spending Y.

531

: 00:32:42

That is a value add.

532

: 00:32:44

Or if they know that they're having

difficulty with the C-suite with headcount

533

: 00:32:49

issues, if they can showcase by creating a

dashboard or a PDF or slides or anything,

534

: 00:32:56

to really showcase how busy the team

is already and how they are staffed.

535

: 00:33:01

Appropriately.

536

: 00:33:02

That's really helping the general counsel.

537

: 00:33:05

And at the end of the day, this is

what I say to all lawyers as well

538

: 00:33:10

too, not just legal ops professionals,

but be fluent in the business

539

: 00:33:14

and be fluent in plain English.

540

: 00:33:16

So to the extent that you can

translate all of those metrics and

541

: 00:33:20

everything in plain English in ways

that the business can understand,

542

: 00:33:23

that's such a big value add.

543

: 00:33:27

Well, Irene, thank you for

coming on Clock Talk today.

544

: 00:33:29

It was a pleasure picking your brain

about the GC mindset, and again, it

545

: 00:33:33

was amazing to have you join us in

Las Vegas as our closing keynote.

546

: 00:33:37

Thank you so much.

547

: 00:33:38

Thanks for the invite for the closing

keynote as well as this podcast and

548

: 00:33:43

that folks about wraps up this episode.

549

: 00:33:45

Thank you to Irene for sharing your

insights on what really matters to GCs.

550

: 00:33:50

Catch this and other episodes of Clock

Talk wherever you listen to podcasts.

551

: 00:33:54

Thanks for listening.

552

: 00:33:55

Until next time.

Share Episode

Shownotes

Transcripts

Follow

Links

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube