My conversation with today’s guest has been in the works for some time and I am more than elated to FINALLY share it. Theron is someone who you meet once, immediately feel like he’s your best friend and this conversation definitely evokes that. In part one of this conversation, we’ll talk about growing up as a Methodist Apache kid who converts to Mormonism as a way to have more structure to avoid his inner knowing. The awakening that happens as Theron searches for his “people” is inspiring and brave. 

Theron is absolutely charming and hilarious, so much so that we will have part TWO of this conversation for you in a few weeks. 

About our guest:

Theron Olivar is an Arizona Native (Apache) who was raised Lutheran and converted to the LDS faith at the age of 18. He volunteers his time to support ALL (Arizona LDS LGBT), a cause that speaks to his heart. He works in compliance and has a long career in the world of finance. Theron now believes that he is who he's meant to be, that life is too short to over analyze everything and is excited to see what the future holds. He currently lives in Arizona with his long-time love and partner. 

Mentioned:

The Amazing Race https://www.cbs.com/shows/amazing_race/

LDS Mission Training Center https://provo.mtc.byu.edu/

Connect with Leaving in Color:

Instagram - @leavingincolor.pod 

Email - leavingincolorpod@gmail.com.

Music by Tucker Winters

Art by Jen Cagle Gilmore

Editing by Particulate Media

Hello, welcome to living in color, a podcast about uncovering your

radiant self after losing your faith.

I am your host, Christina Elmer.

I'm so delighted you found us.

Well, hello, everyone.

Happy February.

We're actually at the tail end of February.

Hope that everyone has had a lovely month of love.

Thank you so much for bearing with us as we took a small break earlier in the month

and in between episodes to just kind of catch our breath as we started a new year.

And, just dealt with things that life or throwing at us.

So thank you again for allowing us this time to just be humans on this planet.

Today's episode, let me tell you, first of all, just a small disclaimer.

Before you decide to listen to this podcast with kids in the

car, probably not the best idea.

This is probably headphones in, no kids around.

There is some spicy content, not too spicy, but just probably something

you may not want your kids hearing.

Today's episode is going to be a fantastic episode as I, I honestly

feel all of my guests are fantastic.

We have a wonderful conversation and it's just a delight to sit

and hear their stories and share their stories on this podcast.

So without further ado, here is episode six, first of two, Returning

Home To Yourself with Theron.

Enjoy.

Hi, and welcome to leaving in color.

I am very, very excited about today's episode.

my guest today is.

Theron Olivar.

Theron, welcome to Leaving in Color.

Thank you for having me.

I think it's great.

Finally, we get to meet.

This has been a couple months in the making.

We've had like, with the holidays and, you know, both of us have just kind of like,

schedules just haven't quite matched up.

And so here we are finally.

And I'm so glad that you've taken time out from your day to be here.

So welcome.

Of course.

Yeah, planes, trains, and automobiles, but we made it.

Hey.

We made it.

Here we are.

All right.

Well, Theron, uh, give us a little bit of a background of who you are, so Theron

actually is also ex Mormon, but give us a background to your origin story.

Correct.

So I am, uh, FOMO.

Um, so current MO, but, uh, I, I did convert over to Mormonism

when I was 18, served a mission, almost got married, came out.

So I'm happily partnered as of 09 now.

So seven years after my mission, partnered up, married, been with them ever since.

So it's been great.

But the transition for that and the whys are kind of why we're here.

It's like that's the story part.

That's the juice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

been a roller coaster.

Tell me about your family background.

So you grew up Apache?

So I'm Apache.

I grew up, I've got four siblings So there's five of us including my

parents Not necessarily traditional.

So I grew up ahh Lutheran.

So within a private school from kindergarten to eighth grade.

And even in that time, like, I knew, that something was quote unquote wrong.

And, um, there was no outlet, there was no way to explore what was

going on with me, I just knew...

Like in regards to your sexuality?

Right.

It's like I knew something was wrong, but I, I wasn't, I mean obviously I

wasn't sexually active, but I knew something was up, like my little crushes

were like either my teachers, or I didn't have that interest in girls.

At that time,

Hmm.

I was like, ah, this is weird and I see my buddies

having girlfriends, so I just got girlfriends and at that age, you

know, you write them letters, you get them jewelry from the county fair and

you hold hands maybe and I'm like, I like girls, you know, this is fine.

But there was no line in the sand to tell me otherwise that

I, that something was off.

Did you find yourself having like emotional

connections with women, or with girls, but not so much physical?

Like, was there an emotional component for you?

Exactly, like they were my best friends.

But at the time, you couldn't be that close to girls because

you'd get called out easily.

Apache culture is very masculine in the sense that, and very stereotypical in the

sense that we had to stay in our lane.

If you're too smart and too outspoken and well spoken, you know,

you'd get quote unquote bullied.

And for being light skinned, you would get bullied for being speaking

the white language, you would be called a white boy in Apache.

They call you that scheme.

So that that was kind of derogatory it for for us.

I mean, it's, it's not, it just means white person, white boy or whatever.

But it, for us, it was just telling us you were being too white.

Yeah, So if I got straight A's, like I would dumb it down to get like an

A minus, just so I would fall in.

But I mean, there, that began the, the process of protecting myself, right?

Just so I wouldn't be called these names.

And then having to go in and have a little girlfriend and treat her right, like I,

I treated her like a princess, obviously, because I'm just like, yeah, it's like,

you know, I like you, but I don't know why I think this is how it's supposed to go.

And so it was a very confusing time.

Puberty was very confusing, you know, and, um, even my first intro introduction

to, like, a gay person was in church.

Somebody would come in and he would sit in the pews.

Long hair, long nails, and I remember sitting looking at him and

I'm like, okay, I don't want that.

Like, I like a clean cut, I like my nails short, like, I don't want

to be a girl, so I can't be gay.

So there goes the internal questions of me asking,

Mm.

okay, so I can't be gay, so what, what the hell's wrong with me?

You know, why don't I want a girlfriend that I can kiss?

My friends were kissing already.

You saw this person at Lutheran church like it on a

So they, they would show up every Sunday and we would

learn the pastor would get up there and start talking about, faith

and like peace and all that stuff.

But then when he saw the person, it would change to sodomy, people going

to hell, um, what we're doing wrong.

So, and, and then it wasn't until like the fourth sermon that I heard.

And I was just like, okay, now one plus one equals two, this is why the sermon

is changing, to be more aggressive.

And, and I'm like, huh, so why is this person sitting there subjecting

themselves to hearing about them going to hell, you know, and with me,

it's like, I would uh have to look internally and say, am I going to hell?

And I'm like, no, I'm a good person.

I'm not going to hell.

So,

Yeah,

That made it really hard.

So I felt like I had to do another layer and hide again.

And, you know, you just go into hiding out of fear.

But I remember my mom shaking his hand on the, on the Sundays and say welcome and

all this stuff and make him feel welcomed.

And I was like,

Oh I love that.

So they're not bad people.

Like, so it was very confusing.

Yeah.

And so, but you knew something was, quote unquote wrong.

Right?

With me.

Oh, so you thought that there's something wrong with you, not

wrong with what the pastor was saying?

Or both.

Kind of both.

It's kind of a mix of both of them being, um, skewed.

In the sense of like, with me, it's like I knew something was

up, but I couldn't identify it.

Uh, because I assumed that all gays wanted to be women.

And it wasn't until later that I figured out like, okay, sex,

sexuality and orientation are completely different things, you know?

And it's not until you have that aha moment that you're like, okay, I don't

affiliate with that, so that's not me.

You know, you just clump them all together.

And it wasn't until you educate get to know people and you

realize like, oh, that's them.

I'm me.

This is fine.

And, um, so with the pastor, it's like, the funny thing is I would always

go head to head with the pastors.

Like I got suspended from school.

I would, just because like we have catechism, which is just a class, a

subject in school, and I remember one time we fought because a cousin of

mine miscarried, she had baby, uh, twin girls that, uh, she had a miscarriage,

pretty, pretty late on in the pregnancy.

And we had a, a lecture about baptism, the importance, the importance thereof

that you needed that to go to heaven.

So then I asked the question, like, Hey, you're born, but you're not baptized?

And I was told that if you're not baptized, it could be milk, it could

be water, it could be whatever it is, but you baptize that baby in

order for them to go to heaven.

And he said, if you weren't, that's God's plan.

So you're going to hell.

So then I fought with him and I'm like, no, but babies, you know, sins of the

father, you don't go to hell for that.

Anyway, I get suspended.

My parents are pissed.

I think I'm in the wrong and it wasn't until I told them like, hey, they said

Tammy's babies went to hell, you know, like that, that's how I interpreted it.

And it wasn't until then that my parents looked at me and they're like,

okay, so they went to the pastor and was like, don't you tell my son this

nonsense and they put their foot down.

But the pastors within that private school that we went to, we couldn't

go participate with the within the Apache's ceremonies or anything

like that because sins of the Father, traditions of the Father.

And if we did, we'd get suspended again.

Uh, and we're all sports oriented, so they withheld us from sports.

We were then deemed ineligible to play sports that week, so yeah, it

was a very, a very confusing time.

So like, I'm Apache, but I'm also Lutheran.

So you had to juggle identity crisis at an early age.

And I'm also gay, like it's, it's, It was just a mix of emotions that I didn't

know what to do with at that time.

It's heavy.

Yeah.

And it's heavy for kids.

Yeah, very heavy.

But yeah, I'm glad this is an outlet.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Um, is Lutheranism a common religion found among the Apache people?

Or, I haven't done a lot of studies about Native Americans, just kind

of what they give you in school.

Right.

But I know that Catholicism is huge.

It's huge.

In like Latin American countries, with the native people.

Um, But what about Lutheranism?

Like, how did, how did your family come into that?

Or was there a huge community, Lutheran community, within the Apache?

It all depends.

So, like, the, the private school I went to was called the Mission School.

So, the, and I think it's whoever gets there first.

So, the Lutheran set camp, and then Catholicism came

after that on our reservation.

And because they're, they're closed and self governing reservation that it depends

on the religion that gets allowed on the reservation, at least back in the day.

Okay, and who decides that?

Is there like a council that decides?

There's a tribal council.

Yeah, we have a tribal council that looks to see.

So, on the reservation, we can't own land, right?

So it's just leased.

Even to members just so we can't sell it.

So there will always be a reservation.

Right.

So Lutheranisms, they have a plot of land that is assigned

to the, that's granted to the church where they can build a church.

And so Catholicism, they wanted to own the land so they can build a church because,

you know, them as an organization wanted to build a church up, but they didn't want

to invest a lot in it because they can't own the land and who's to say that the

council would change your mind and take the land back and then it would just be a

waste, you know, financially, not savvy.

But, um, so the Lutheran schools were granted a lease and whenever

they're granted a lease, it was like 50 years or 100 years.

I'd have to look it up, but they're allotted a certain, like, an acre of land.

Yeah.

My reservation in specific has like 1.

2 million acres.

So yeah, it's pretty significant and pretty drastic.

Yeah.

And even when I was in the mission school and the Lutheran school, because

there was a Catholic school, um, my grandmother's Catholic, my father,

uh, he went to the Lutheran school when, and, uh, had my mom convert

because you couldn't mix religions.

And so she converted over to Lutheranism.

We were raised Lutheran, but my mom would always teach us about the saints

and how she grew up and whatnot.

Religion is.

prominent on the reservation, but people

go

Yeah.

just to say that they're quote unquote religious.

but in their core, we're Apaches and our ceremonies trump everything.

Were you allowed to participate in ceremonies or not at all?

Like, as a Lutheran, were you not allowed to do that?

Could Catholics do that?

the reason I'm asking is I'm, I'm imagining the reservation and imagining

that there's a Lutheran church, probably Catholic, is everybody going to church?

Or there's some people that, say, I don't want the religion of the quote

unquote white man, I want to stay, you know, with, you know, the beliefs

of, of my, you know, my forefathers.

Are the people that opt to do that?

Yeah, as far as affiliating with the church, that's optional.

Like our congregation, we had about 200 people, so it wasn't huge.

It was just, you had to be a member of the church to be able to go

to the school, to get the good, the superior education, right?

And the Catholicism, the Catholic church did not have a school.

So it was like 50, 60 people.

Everybody who didn't affiliate with those churches were

just called, uh, traditional.

They're just Apache and they would go to the ceremonies and which

made it conflicting as well because like we had such a huge family.

And one of the ceremonies, um, the sunrise dance is when the girl comes of age and

it's kind of their intro to the tribe.

So you're saying, hey, this is my daughter and then she selects godparents.

So it's another family and you're just presenting to the tribe like,

hey, this is my daughter now.

And she's telling them, Hey, these are my parents now.

And it's a beautiful thing.

It's kind of, it's, like a quinceanera meets a baptism

It sounds beautiful.

Yeah, we would get dinged on it because if somebody saw you there

and they told the pastors, like, that was a big thing is marking each other out,

like, and so if the pastor find that found out, they would call us in for interviews

and then we'd have to say yes or no.

Oh, that's unfortunate.

So, sometimes we, my parents would have to say, like, if you

get called in, just say, no, you weren't

there.

Yeah, yeah, I understand that for sure.

It's just that they'd hold it over your head

that, Lutheranism is the only God.

Whereas if you think about it, like, back in the day, our ancestors didn't

know how to say God, ours, we call, you know, The Creator, if you will, uh, Usen.

So Usen is our word for God.

It's just, we didn't speak English and to us, it's the same thing.

Yeah, I'm, I'm very fascinated by, the Native

American traditions and ceremonies.

it's interesting because I grew up in El Paso, which is on the border of Mexico.

And we had a variety of people in our, in our ward, in our congregation there.

And I remember being 12 years old and there was a family there, I can't

remember all the details, but I know that they were, they were native

people and they were, they were

hmm.

Mm

Um, and they, for a Wednesday night activity...

So in Mormonism, you go to church, for our listeners.

They, you go to church on Sunday and then you have, um, At the

time that probably when Theron and I went, it was 3 hours long.

So you'd have the sacrament service and then you'd have Sunday School.

And on Wednesday nights, we'd go just for like, kind of fun activities.

It was just like an opportunity for the youth and the kids to get together.

And there's usually some things, you know, gospel or religious space, but

sometimes it's just to go and have fun.

And so one, one activity that was planned when I was about 12 years old was they

did, I think, tell me, I'm not up on all the terms, but it was a round dance.

Is that what they're called?

Yeah.

So we were taught, you know, a round dance and it was, I loved it, cause

there was drums and just, I don't know.

It's.

Interesting looking back now and in Mormonism, we're taught that like the only

way you can be close to God and feel the spirit is within the Mormon church, right?

They hold the exclusive rights to spirituality.

And so anytime you feel a curiosity towards another spiritual belief

or another culture that might have spiritualism embedded in it or

ingrained in it, that it's wrong.

Like that is a big no, no.

It's all the devil.

Yes, it's the devil and I remember just like being overcome with

the beauty of it and I'm like, but this also feels a little bit shameful because,

you know, we're not supposed to feel the spirit outside of the realms of Mormonism.

So.

Right.

And then there's that conflict is like, oh, that's pretty.

And the round dance is nothing more than a social dance.

So

Uh huh.

when two tribes met, um, they'd do a round dance.

So they would, you know, integrate, they'd mingle.

And that's social dance and the beauty of it.

So there's nothing religious about it.

There's nothing like tempting about it, but it's just like, Hey, this is, we're

like, we come in peace, kind of, and it's like, they play, they would have food,

they would do a dance, there would be music, so you would just do a round dance,

just to show, hey, we're all here, and then you'd introduce yourselves by clans.

Because back in the day, it's like, we didn't have Apaches, Navajos,

it was like, see, like, I'm of the Blackwater clan, so I'd say, I'm my

mother's clan, and I'm born into my dad's clan, and this is who I am.

And that you'd look and they'd be like, oh okay.

Those are our cousins.

Those are our grandparents.

Like, that's how you get to know each other and if you're on good terms

Okay.

Are they still broken up into clans?

Yes, yeah, so we are broken up in the in the clans.

I mean, um, you can't marry within clans because you're too

we say you're too closely related.

Um, but within the tribe we can be like i'm San Carlos Apache.

We can marry San Carlos Apaches.

I just can't marry anybody who's Blackwater because

I am Blackwater, you know?

So, and the clans are all maternal, so I am my, my mom's clan, but

I'm born into my dad's clan.

So it's just that creates that piece and you're that, that little intersection

to say like, hey, I'm Blackwater and I'm born into, and like, the Weaver's clan.

And so everybody's unique, you know?

I love that.

That's fascinating.

I did not know that.

For the Apache people, like, is there a lot of things that tend to be like from

the maternal side, or is it still pretty, paternal, patriarchal, or is it, or is

there a good mix of, you know, men and women kind of holding different power?

Does it make sense?

The weird thing is like, all the kids, boy or girl,

they're, they're their mother's sons.

And my, my mother's sister's kids are my brothers, you know, so your

first cousins are your brothers.

Um, your dad's sides, like those are your cousins, like,

Because your dads are just the donors.

Even though they run the household, um, it's a very masculine household.

It's like the men are in charge, but you are you're, you are of your mother.

Okay.

So is there like a, I guess, a form of sacredness towards women and the

power that they hold in that way?

Okay.

That's really cool.

Yeah.

So they're, they're the giver of life.

You know, they, they give you everything and all your dad gives you is your name.

That's really cool.

That's the thing is like, it's, it's very sacred, you

know, you're, you know, cause your mother's held in a sacred regard.

To where you look at her and you're like, that's who I am.

And you look at your dad and you're just like, oh yeah, that's, he gave me a name.

And not to diminish that, like I do know like my father, I love my father.

Yeah, but it's just, that, that's how it's seen.

And that's how you're taught as a kid.

So, and then, and then in comes a religion that tells you like, follow the father,

the patriarch, and blah, blah, blah.

That must've been really confusing.

Everything was confusing.

Right,

Yeah, I wanted to ask, um, about doctrinal differences

between Lutheranism and Mormonism.

like, I know that Lutheran, you know, from what I've read, the

focus is on the Bible, right?

They, they really love the Bible.

Obviously Mormons have both, but most Christian religions have the Bible.

There, was there anything that when you were investigating the church, learning

about the church, that was difficult for you to get on board with or anything

that was kind of contrary other than you know, the Lutheran church Pastor probably

was like, you know, Mormonism is a cult.

But other than that like is there anything that seemed off or just

something that you had to really work at believing any sort of differences.

I think for me was the priesthood.

You know, you get the Aaronic and the Melchizedek priesthood.

So within Lutheranism, you have to go to college at Martin Luther College.

And you have to affiliate with that specific branch.

So I'm Wells, I was Wells Lutheran, which is Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church.

So Wells synagogue, sorry, not church.

And so, Wells Lutheran, once they go and graduate from, Lutheran school, and

get certified, then now they can teach.

And then they get assigned, uh, it's essentially the equivalent to a parish,

but they had to get assigned to a mission and on tribal land, those are

the only things like the, they're the, the missions, you know, that's like

forts or whatever's normally a fort

just because those are where the, the cavalry used to be like, so those

were, uh, government lands that were allocated to armies and whatnots.

yeah, so like we were taught that baptism by fire in Lutheranism, baptism

by fire would only come to us pretty much once we were all raised again.

So, um, after Christ came back after, the

The resurrection.

or whatever.

Yeah.

And so going into Lutheran or Mormonism, and I'd have to ask him

like, what's the Melchizedek priesthood?

Like what, what, what?

So that was the biggest thing is like defining the types of priesthood.

And the powers within, you know, and then the rites.

The temple, I will say I was shooketh.

Yes, we'll have to have a special episode on that one.

I would love to have you back and we can, you know as a convert.

Yeah, it, it,

it, was a lot.

Yeah, I can imagine.

And how I didn't run from there screaming is

beyond me, but not like it's bad.

No, no, no,

Back in the day, it's like, because, when

they do the anointing, when I,

right before I got my garments and they had to clean the body and everything.

That was so odd because I did it and then I look over and it's one of my

classmate's fathers was in there.

And I was just like, we're both naked, pretty much under like

separate sheets, but, and I'm like, this is, this is normal.

And then somebody is touching me under this, under the robe.

And I'm like, and this is okay.

Okay.

Okay.

They're doing it too.

So it's fine.

So that's what I mean.

It's like, you just follow and you accept the fact that this is okay.

For sure.

But yeah, another episode,

Yeah.

Yeah.

But thank you for clarifying that.

I was just curious, because I, like I said, I, I don't know a whole lot,

I just know that it was Martin Luther that started Lutheranism because he

was, you know, frustrated, was at the Catholic Church back in 15, the 1500s.

So, but yeah, I just was curious.

That could be the break off.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

So now let's move into, yeah.

So, tell us a story about how you found out about Mormonism.

Cause was there an LDS church on the reservation or?

No, so we didn't have an LDS church on the reservation.

So, like I said, I'd been struggling all through grade school.

So then come high school, I still had that.

Like I had little girlfriends and I'm like, and if they're

listening, I'm sorry, I love you all

Theron's a lover,

not a

Ex girlfriends.

or a hater.

Yeah, but it's just like, I, I still felt something was wrong.

And so, um, I would play sports and then a bit, a friend of

mine, I found out was Mormon.

And I'd heard all the horror stories like, oh, they're in a cult, they do this stuff.

So then I looked at my friend and he looked normal and I'm

like, how are you Mormon?

So I asked questions.

And then I got to know his schedule and I realized like he had, you know, F.H.E.

He couldn't come with us on Mondays because he had to go home

and have dinner with his family.

And then he had mutual and then he had all these other things planned out.

And I always played sports all through high school, but I felt

like that keeps him extra extra busy, you know, on weekends.

He has things to do.

Um, maybe that's what I need.

It's just more structure just to get these thoughts out of my head.

And I remember when I started taking the discussions with the elders.

Like I would fight them because Lutheranism, they tell you how to

defend yourself with the Bible, with the scriptures and whatnot.

So I would sit there, argue with them and I'm like, no, but the Bible says this.

And they bring the book of Mormon out to me and I tell them, no,

I don't want to see that book.

This, you, you know, the Bible, let's talk about the Bible.

And, um, finally it's just.

It got to a point where I thought, okay, this is what I need that'll help me.

And cure me of my fascination with gays, you know, And so, I joined the church,

um, went on dates, my dating pool.

And how old were you when you joined?

I was 18, because my parents wouldn't allow me when I was 17.

So I, because being raised Lutheran, they, the day I told them that I wanted to be

baptized in the Mormon church, they got my old teachers to come in, come back.

Um, we had a prayer circle.

Like you would think it was an exorcism going on in my house.

And they all, they all prayed for me.

And they're like, please let them see the light and don't let them get

sucked into the cult kind of thing.

And in my mind, like I couldn't tell them like, hey, I'm

trying to do this to fix me.

I like, I need to fix myself.

But cause I was a kid, I didn't know how to express that.

And I didn't know how to tell them, look, nothing's worked.

I've tried praying.

I've tried all this stuff.

And I've kind of talked to the bishop in the sense of like,

he's, he's telling me if I fast.

I make my sacrifices with my body that, um, fasting, only fasting,

and that it'll, it'll help me.

Can you clarify a little bit for our listeners

about, um, the bishop recommending you fast when you went in and told

him about you being gay, right?

You're getting ready.

You just joined the church, right?

And then, um, you're getting ready to go on a mission and, you know,

probably talking to the bishop during the whole process from the

time you joined the church to when you want to went on a mission.

Am I wrong?

I didn't speak to the bishop himself.

I spoke to, uh, because within the congregation or the, uh, the ward,

the ward members, um, there was a, a member who was a friend of my parents.

Okay.

So my parents not being members, they were friends with him still.

I mean, not still, but yes.

And so I kind of like confided in him because I'd help

him with out on the ranch.

And so he told me at one point, he's like, you know, there comes a time, which

kind of made me think it blew my mind.

Uh, he said, there's, there comes a time in every guy's life where they

have to decide what they want to pursue.

As in, do I want a wife or not?

And I was like, okay, kind of odd, kind of taken aback, but

um, I took it for what it was.

Like his life experiences, I have no idea what they were.

I didn't ask because I had never come out because I wasn't even sure what I was.

You know,

And this is you were how old were you then when this

conversation happened with the friend?

Uh, I was 18.

Okay.

Yeah, I joined, I joined when I was 18.

And, um, so it was between 18 and 19 that we had the conversation.

And I asked him like, hey, you know, I was like, I don't even

know if I could be a member.

Um, I wasn't going around telling everybody because obviously you

can't just say, hey, I might have feelings towards guys.

Uh, I don't know what to do with it.

Uh, but I was just like, you know, like, it's like, is this normal?

Because he had a gay son.

And so I was like, okay, I was like, there's, there's my in.

So I took advantage of that.

And we kind of expanded on that.

And that was the thing he said.

He's like, we just have to come to a point where we decide.

Which made me think I was like, oh, do a lot more people go through this, you know?

Yeah.

And then even with the bishop, with the fasting, um, and

making a covenant, it was more about making a covenant and not fasting.

So apologies if I got that mixed up.

He just said that, you know, fast on it, obviously.

And that the biggest sacrifice that I could make, like the one

up of fasting would be serving a mission because that's the ultimate

sacrifice of your body, your time.

And you make a pact with God, or Heavenly Father.

And I was like, okay, that sounds, that's reasonable.

Like for a big, a big prize of like wanting a wife and kids and that white

picket fence, I just give up two years.

Done.

Yeah, that's like a small drop in the bucket

of time, if you think about it.

I mean, it's a lot when you're 19 years old, but at the

same time, hindsight, yeah.

Hindsight.

Yeah.

Blink of an eye.

Yeah, for sure.

No, it's just interesting that the bishop recommended that.

Like the amount of sacrifice one makes to be on a mission,

like your time is not your own.

Essentially, your body isn't your own either, right?

You have to be places, you make appointments, you're

sometimes even told where to be.

You know, you have meetings this time, you have to be at church this time, your

P Day, like your schedule is set for you.

Like your personal time is set for you.

You don't get to dictate that.

The mission president dictates that, right?

Your P Day is set and your day has to be filled and

you're accountable for that day.

So you have to report to whether it be a district manager or zone leader.

They will call you when you come in at, uh, I think it's like 7 or 8.

I forgot what time we, we had to run back to the, the apartment,

but they will call you and say, hey, what'd you do with your day?

And so we'd have to tell them, like, between this time and this time

was travel, this time and this time we're teaching this person and they

would quote unquote, keep track of our progression within our not

necessarily clients, our investigators.

And then they'll just see how we were progressing.

If we lost contact with somebody, we'd have to explain why.

So it was very micromanaged,

Yeah.

Again, like just as we were saying, our time, your body, it's not your own.

So it is understandable whether, you know, the Bishop was like, Hey, go on a mission.

That's the next level.

That's the next form of like, I guess, physical time sacrifice, you know?

Cause,

Yeah.

It's like bootcamp.

You just lose yourself and you're just like, okay, you dedicate to the work.

You don't venture out and you have no thoughts and that's all consuming.

So I was like, okay, maybe I need to be detached for a little

bit to find myself, you know?

So as cliche as that sounds, I decided.

Yeah.

Totally.

I, I wonder if a bishop ever told you at some point, or like if, when you

guys are working with investigators, because maybe this is just

something I had heard at some point.

But for example, for people that can't fast because of medical reasons or

physical reasons, they can't fast, so go without food or drink, it's

recommended that they abstain from something as like an offering, right?

We think about people giving up things for Lent.

Mainstream Christianity or even Catholicism, they'd practice

Lent, where they give up something for, was it 40 days or something?

but fasting in the Mormon church for listeners that are not familiar

with too much about Mormonism.

Um, the first Sunday of the month is designated the fast Sunday.

So you go 24 hours without food or drink.

Um, and then you pay tithes to the church based upon the food that you didn't eat.

So the money that you would have spent to, to prepare those meals as fast offerings.

You can fast anytime, you know, um, you could fast before a big

event, a big test, if you're in, you know, studying school or whatever.

Um, so fasting could be done anytime, but that was like the set time.

The church was like, hey, this is when everybody does it.

But yeah.

Had you heard that before that, did you offer that to investigators

as well as like, you know, you're not able to physically fast

because of a medical condition.

Did you run into that at all?

Cause I can see when the mission president or the bishop didn't suggested.

Cause I, they kind of, they run parallel, right?

Yeah.

So, um, we did have an investigator that, um, couldn't fast, like diabetes,

diabetic, and, uh, so we told them like, okay, well, it's more about sacrifice.

So it's more if you sacrifice your free time, and then you can go ahead

and, you know, read scripture or do a good deed or do a service for

somebody else, do something good.

And as long as you start with a prayer, you do complete the objective.

And then you end with a prayer saying, Hey, I'm, I'm finished.

Like I worked, I volunteered for two hours.

I did my part.

Now it's his, it's his thing.

You're essentially egging on Heavenly Father to be like, hey, I did my part.

Now it's your turn.

Like poking him.

Like remember the poke option on Facebook?

Remember that?

Like you're poking God.

Like, here.

Here.

I'm here.

I offered you 24 hours of no food and

Where you at?

Legit!

And I gave you special tithings to go, I don't know,

I gave you money along with it.

Yeah.

It's surreal once you think about it, like, after the fact,

as in, um, You know, I, I, legit try and do something good every day.

That's what you should

That's what you should do regardless of, like,

any sort of reward at the end.

Right?

Just be a good human,

Don't be an asshole.

You'll be fine

Yeah.

Oh, that's funny.

I guess we can call the mission, like, I'm thinking about it

as you're telling me about it.

I'm imagining The TV show Amazing Race.

Yes, and there's a prize at the end.

Not all of you are going to win, but it's there.

Right.

You can kind of say that the Mormon mission is like that.

The Mormon mission.

You know, fasting.

The ultimate fasting race.

Or whatever.

You know?

Because you do.

You sacrifice so much.

Oh

Yeah.

I mean, you learn a lot, but after the fact, you look back and you

learn a lot from that experience.

Yeah, you definitely grow up on There's not, we don't

want to discount that experience.

I know that, you know, Tucker has talked fondly of it.

I didn't, obviously didn't, I didn't serve on Mission.

I got married at 21.

But, um, the people, for the most part, have,

Yeah.

And so I'm like, okay, cool.

Like the benefits of this cool, uh, pray about things, you know, study things.

And so I was an avid studier, so I would just sit there with the scriptures.

Pray about everything.

I was busy with mutual.

I was busy with school extracurriculars, so I didn't have time to act on anything

and yeah, so then that happened.

So I got baptized on my 18th birthday after I graduated high school Uh,

went to college and the college I went to was predominantly Mormon.

So that just expanded my friends group.

So it was very social.

The social aspect of the church is par to none.

Like I loved it because I love people.

I love getting to know them.

Like, hey, who are you?

And we talk, um, again, dating.

And then, um, my buddies were getting ready for the mission.

And being that I was so, so new to the church, I was like, okay,

there's no way that I'm going.

And it wasn't until I was in the institute that they encouraged me to go.

And they're like, you gotta go.

That's what your dear friends are doing.

That's what you're doing.

And I'm like, I would argue with them and say, hey.

And I know I sound like an argumentative person, but I'm not, I would just say, I

would just come to them with questions.

I'm like, look, I just joined a year ago.

How are you expecting me to put my quote unquote papers in?

I don't know what this means.

And I went to my bishop, and I'm like, look.

And this is for my homeward, not from school.

And I went to my old bishop and I'm like, look, I've been having

these feelings for a little bit.

I don't know what it is.

And he said that, um, one of the main things that you have to think about is

the ultimate sacrifice, and the importance of sacrifice and that if you serve a

mission and work diligently and serve an honorable mission, you come home as

a return missionary, you do it for the right reasons and, and you just do a

prayer kind of like a pact and you do that with the Heavenly Father, that'll

be your sacrifice for two years, the two most important years, of hard work.

Um, you'll be fine.

And so that to me, I was just like, that's all you got to do to fix this.

So I signed in my, everybody went stateside.

So, Utica, New York.

New Jersey.

Uh, they all went stateside.

I got called to Argentina.

And how did you feel about that?

Like, were you hoping to go stateside or were you wanting something different?

I thought that being so new that they would send me to Salt

Lake so that I could learn, right.

Yeah.

And I'm like, so I opened my letter.

Everybody was in my house.

My parents still aren't Mormon, they didn't know what was going on.

So you had all my Mormon buddies.

They're watching me open an envelope and I'm like Buenos Aires, Argentina.

We had to look at a map to see where Buenos Aires was and, and my mom was

like, but you don't speak Spanish.

And I'm like, yeah, I was like, maybe they saw my last name because

Olivar is a Hispanic last name.

So that's what we thought there was a mix up.

And so, so we asked our Bishop and he's like, no, that's

where you're supposed to go.

And yeah, so, uh, fast forward, I served over to Argentina with

Yeah, with my fiancé, my now fiancé Tucker.

So I'm curious, like what, I didn't serve a mission, like I got my

mission, quote unquote, for women.

So I'm assuming you're the same age as Tucker, right?

I just turned 40.

Oh, yeah.

He's turning 40 this year.

Yeah.

He's turning 40 this year.

Uh huh.

So back in our day.

So like when I graduated high school was 1999.

And, um, at that time, the Mormon church, the age requirement for serving a

mission was 19 for boys and 21 for girls.

And so I didn't serve a mission because I got married at 21.

That was, that was my excuse was my mission was to get married, which

now that sounds so fucking stupid.

It's crazy, but that's what's pushed on you.

You're 21, you're a baby.

Okay.

Um, but yeah, so just like looking back on it, you know, but so

when you fill out your papers.

I don't know what that looks like.

Um, I don't know if it's changed.

I have an 18 year old who's graduating high school this year.

I don't know what his plan is.

He might be going on a mission, but his dad is still active in the church.

Okay.

Can you go over and kind of tell me, like, what do you feel?

Cause I, I can imagine just from, you know, when I was at BYU and I had friends

that were going on missions, like, I hung out with all the Pacific Islanders,

cause, that's just kind of what I had roommate who was in love with all of them.

And so that's just who we hung with and it was great.

It was always a good time.

Um, but I know that, you know, if they had like family background somewhere,

or you spoke a language, you could mark that on, on your papers, right?

You could say, you know, I speak Japanese or my family's from Japan.

Like my dad, when he served a mission, I'm surely he put, you

know, I am half Japanese, and so he got sent to Japan on his mission.

Did you, was there anything like that that you was like, you know, I'm, you

know, a native person, you know, Apache?

What about like, how long you've been a member?

Is that even a question they ask?

it wasn't a mem, It wasn't

Okay.

It wasn't like, it, it's like, I I've been a

member a year and four minutes.

It should be.

I mean, granted, uh, I, I had a lot of baptisms, but I could say it's

just because I can sell, you know,

I mean, and you're a charming person, so I get it.

Yeah.

And it's just something that comes naturally.

It's a word vomit.

And I'm just like, okay, do you feel it?

And so there, so as far as the paperwork.

There wasn't a, how long have I, have you been a member?

There wasn't a question about, do you feel comfortable, confident

enough to speak another language?

Mind you, I don't know how to teach the gospel in English at this point.

So I'm like, you want me to go speak, teach this in Spanish?

I'm like, I'm not understanding.

And the paperwork is just like, are you, like, I'd been absolved

from, from sins I, I'd always laughed and say I was a convert.

I dated girls.

So I'm a convert.

I was washed clean.

I was born again, again.

Yes.

But I mean, it was, pretty much do you agree

to the terms of the mission?

This is what we expect.

This is how you can go.

Do I speak another language?

I marked no.

Um, and all I kept getting was, because it was a whirlwind.

I mean, they would, the, the parents of my friends would legit tell

me, oh, the spirit will guide you.

the prophet knows what he's doing.

And I was just, all the way through the temple, I remember

looking around like what?

What, you know, like.

But you, you get kind of get coaxed into it because I'm seeing my friend's dad

next to me and so you have to cope with it and just be like, okay, this is normal.

Like this, the outfit is normal.

This, this is who I am now, you know?

Like, this is my personality now.

It's, it's so, ugh.

Looking back you just think, wow.

How did I get so deep?

And even my friends have questions.

Like, they're not Mormons.

But they have questions and I'll answer them and, and they

ask me like, you believe this?

Because I work in finance and so we're very logical and they looked at me and

they're like, you believed all this?

And I'm like, kind of, but I felt like I, I, I never drank the Kool Aid to

where like, I had like a testimony to where I like, I would be so into it and

or enthralled or excited to teach it.

I just knew that this is something that I have to do to fix myself.

So ulterior motives, like anybody listening, like who are still active

are going to, you know, it's easy to say he didn't go with it with a,

with a clean heart or pure of heart or with best intentions, but I did.

Like I went out there and I'm like the people that I baptized are still

active some served missions they're sealed in the temples and that's great.

Yeah.

But it's just after a while you just have to look back

and be like, how did I get here?

Like I went through the temple I did all the ordinances.

I'm like, without question

Mm hmm.

I just allowed that to happen Wow.

Okay, you know?

So I did go in with the right intentions.

I did everything wholeheartedly.

I gave my time.

I did what I was supposed to do and I fell in line.

I legit just fell in line and said this is it.

This is fine.

I trust these people.

And, yeah, and now I'm no longer a member, which, I, that's my choice.

I don't Have any regrets of being a church member of the church.

I don't have any horror stories per se.

That's a whole nother episode, but it's as far as like, I know I got off

topic, but paperwork, it was just, are you willing to go, uh, you want

to speak a little bit of language?

Is that preferable?

And then each one I said, no, I do not want to speak Spanish.

Really?

So you did specify.

I did specify.

I didn't, I took like one semester of Apache language and got half

a credit of college, you know,

Huh.

a college credit.

So

So that's, That's interesting.

and they still sent me anyway.

They still sent you.

It was just, you know, they were testing your faith at that point.

Like, you know, like, I wonder just like how they even get to the point of, you

know, do they just throw names in a bowl?

I'm very curious, like, I'm not trying to come from a place of like, to vilify

the church in any way in this process.

Cause like you've seen when they select a Pope for the Catholic church.

Like it's a whole process.

Like, I only know this because of the Da Vinci Code from years ago.

Yeah.

But then like they televise it, right.

And then like, if the piece of paper is in the right thing, if the smoke

is in the right color, whatever.

And so that's not how they do it with prophets, but how do they do

it with, you know, when you've been so specific and you're like, I don't

want to learn another language,

Yeah.

Well, cause it's just, that's a part of the, the agency that they, they give you,

they take it away because I'm like, I don't feel comfortable speaking Spanish.

And, like, do I think that we should have a say in what, where we go, what we do?

Maybe, but then that opens floodgates, like organizationally.

And that's what you got to think of it as, it's like an organization.

You know, they have somebody who's retiring from Buenos Aires.

South, yes.

And um, they need bodies to fill and it was just a mess.

So you go to the MTC and you learn for like six weeks, but you focus on spanish.

I went down, I didn't, I barely knew how to ask where the restroom was.

I barely knew how to ask, do you believe in God?

And I had to learn that, but by the end, I will say I was fluent.

That's amazing.

They're like, there's something to be said about, the church and how they it's,

it's a well oiled machine, honestly.

Like you think about the, the rigor and the structure that takes place

in the Mission Training Center, which there's one in Provo, Utah.

And I think there is one in South America and Argentina now, isn't there?

I think there's one in Argentina, but before that, there

was one in, um, Sao Paulo, brazil.

Because a friend of mine served in Brazil.

I will say, well,

Yeah.

Yeah, we can edit this out, but I'm like, the MTC

was probably the gayest place ever.

Well, that's what I've heard.

I don't know if you want to put it in the podcast because that

actually might be kind of juicy.

It really is.

I mean, especially for like somebody who goes in, you get

the missionary haircut, right?

So you're in the MTC, and then you get placed in this dormitory with

this new group of guys who also don't know what the hell is going on.

And now it's like, okay, you, and super graphic, I apologize,

but you shower, you poop, you do everything together and we legit did.

So it's like, okay, like, like, I'm, I'm working on me.

Like, I don't want to be that weird guy that goes into a single shower by myself.

So we would have, um, you know, gym time, every day at the same time.

So we'd get with other districts and then we'd have gym time.

Um, so of course I gravitate to the more athletic group.

so we play competitive volleyball.

So I get, so like people from Irving, California, um, elder, if you're

listening, I apologize, that's not a shout out, but, um, we would play and

then we found out we were like housed in the same building within the MTC, right?

So I, after gym time, I would go over and I'd shower in there with their district.

It's so weird.

It's so weird.

Talk about it.

Um, do you want to talk a little bit about that?

Like, I know that it's like locker room stuff, right?

It's everybody's showering together.

Did you get any feeling about somebody in the MTC that was

like, you're like, might be gay?

Or did you just, did it not register at all just because it was just

like, you're used to being in a locker room, you played sports.

It was just, this is what guys do.

This is what happens in the room.

And it's just like, so even for the MTC, it's like, you have devotionals, you have

your every second of your day planned out.

And I mean, to say it was gay is tough.

I mean, just because I think it makes it confusing for people who affiliate with

SSA, or being gay, you know, just because you see a lot of naked bodies in in there.

Like, let's call it what it is.

And it's like, people are just doing, what did Tucker say, it, they're

playing body hockey, is disgusting.

I would, I would never even walk on those floors barefoot.

You have your, your shower sandals and there are people like lathering themselves

up and being pushed across the room.

It's disgusting.

Boys are disgusting.

I hope, butt side down,

No,

No, flipped on the pee pee side.

I mean, at the end, like you kind of like roll

on your side, but still like, so it's not until you hit the wall.

Oh god.

But, but yeah, it's, liquid soap all over and

you slide as far as you can.

And sometimes somebody will push you.

It's disgusting.

But it's not, but it's not anybody like running into

each other, there wasn't any of that, like, let's see if we can push

somebody into each other and see, like,

I didn't see that because luckily I was like in the suites, which

is like, we had two other districts in our, on our floor, but we did, for

service we would see the big, like a whole floor of just, we call them the

tree of life, all tree of trees of lives.

and yeah, we, so you could hold a house hundreds of missionaries.

In our thing we had like four tree of lives.

So it was just like our district and whoever woke up at the same time.

And, you know, we would all just shower together.

But you could also see the stalls.

So people were in there doing their business and you're just like, it's

showering and you're like, okay, I'm such a germaphobe that I'm like, okay,

those particles are landing on me.

Uh, yeah, uh, yeah.

Yeah, but it's, it's, to say that it's like a gay experience,

like, no, but it is confusing if you want to get away from that stuff.

And if you're going there to fix yourself and work on yourself and

you're like, okay, there's a swinging dick, there's a hundred swinging dicks.

I mean,

And there's one just sliding by right there.

And there's another one.

There's, there's a butt, there's a butt and you're,

you're, you're comparing yourself.

Right.

And you're just like, I wonder if these guys have the same issues I do.

I, I don't know.

That has to be really tough.

Which I'm sure some did, but I don't know.

Yeah, I can imagine.

Yeah, now that you think about it.

That's, yeah, that's not going to help anyone necessarily want

to like, you know, it's tough.

And if this gets out, I'm sure like the MTC

will have curtain showers now.

Maybe they do, maybe they do already, like maybe

things have somewhat changed.

I, who, who knows?

I wouldn't put it past the church to have cameras in there either.

Yeah.

And some old dudes just watching to make sure nothing happens.

I know.

It's like, ugh,

Jesus and germs are everywhere, and the church!

Make sure one gets on you and the other doesn't.

Yeah, it's

Yeah, oh.

That's gotta be the name of the podcast.

It's Jesus and germs, only let one in.

Only let one in, yeah, oh man.

But, um, there was this girl and she was an awesome setter.

She played volleyball.

So she would set us and everything.

And we became great friends.

You know, obviously I gravitate to females and I'm like, hey,

you know, you're awesome.

Good job.

Good job.

Like encouraging.

Totally innocent.

And my district, when they saw that I, my companion and I would go over across

the hallway to the other district to shower up with the other district that

also had PT hour, um, they thought I was going to see that sister.

And so they, it went up the chain.

So this, uh, sister and I, we both had to have an interview with the

mission president at the MTC and tell the mission president, like, what?

No, we're not dating.

We're going on our missions.

We're going on training.

yeah, so our district didn't have faith in us and she was just really cool.

And we, we were Facebook friends now and it's, it's amazing.

But yeah, so that, that was my trouble.

Like a person going to fix himself for being gay and knowing something

was wrong, gets in trouble for almost dating a sister missionary.

And I'm like, that doesn't resonate with me.

Yeah, but it's also not unusual if like anyone listening

that is familiar with Missions in the Mormon Church, like I have I've known

people that have served a mission.

Met their current spouse on their mission.

You know, it's not unusual.

That's not atypical.

And so those you know, the people in your district are

probably like, you know, They're.

Probably thinking the same thing, like, Oh, this girl's cute, how come

she's not giving me the time of day?

And so there is probably maybe a little bit of jealousy there?

Right.

And she was gorgeous.

I mean, I wasn't bad looking back in the day.

I mean, and I'm like, no, we're friends.

Where we were friends.

and I wanted to be her friends, but I'm like, now you guys just made it awkward.

Like,

Yeah.

It, it, it, was so odd.

That's so funny.

So districts, I'm, I'm assuming districts are, is it based upon

where you're going on your mission?

More more or less, it's, um, everybody who's learning Spanish.

So, we had somebody from Canada, like, he was Asian, Chinese.

Uh, and so he came in from Canada, so he was learning, Spanish with us.

There were, you know, this guy from Georgia, so we were from all over.

And everybody saw me.

Like, you know, I'm, I'm brown, like, I've got melanin on me, and they thought

I spoke Spanish, and I'm like, hola!

You know, I could not speak Spanish for the life of me, and I'm just like, I don't

understand the conjugating the verbs.

But they, they, they all thought that I would be able to tutor them.

And unfortunately I was the, probably the worst student ever.

Cause I'm like, I don't get this.

But yeah, I mean, just goes to show show, right?

The stereotypes that are put on you for being brown and you're, they're

just like, oh, he speaks Spanish.

And I'm like, I really don't.

He's brown.

He must speak Spanish.

It's like, oh.

So was everyone serving, but they're going to different Spanish speaking missions?

Not everyone was going to Argentina, right?

They're just like, so they were being spread out Mexico, wherever they spoke

Spanish, cause there's even like Spanish speaking missions in like Las Vegas or New

York, which is, you know, but so everyone was just speaking the same language.

That's how districts were broken up.

Yeah.

And then we, and so it's just your time within the MTC.

So like, if you're there for just learning a language, you're there for like six

weeks, versus the two or three weeks, just if you're going English speaking or

your native tongue, whatever it may be.

So if you speak Spanish, you'd only be there for two or three weeks

just to learn the, um, discussions.

And, um, so they broke you up on the day you arrived and

the time spent within the MTC.

Did your family drop you off at the MTC?

Did they, were they able, because at that time, like, we were still able to like,

because I remember I had friends that were leaving on missions and it was a big

to do, like, we would all meet outside the front of the MTC and we'd walk in,

but we'd have to say bye at the door before they went into the big, the big

room where they did the big introduction.

It was like a big tearful goodbye.

I remember doing it a few times with some friends that I had

met my freshman year at BYU.

Did your family drop you off at the MTC?

Or did you just, they just set you on a plane and said, peace out,

homie, and we'll see you in two?

Set me on the plane, begged me not to go, and, I know.

We didn't even know that was an option for them to take me to the MTC.

So just being a, they should have given us the option, but, because my

parents would have flown with me, but they, we were told that they have to

say goodbye to me when I was set apart.

Okay, they might have changed that rule, I think

because it just got so chaotic.

Because granted, that was like, when I did that, it was 2000?

we did that, and so, yeah, I think they must've changed at some point.

Cause it just, it got kind of chaotic having so many people at the MTC.

But yeah, that's, I can't imagine like having, I don't, yeah, I don't

want to think about it with my oldest.

It's going to, uh, I have friends that have done it and friends who

have, you know, kids on missions that I'm like, I can't even imagine

just like saying goodbye to your baby for, for two years and but now like

kids on missions, and they are kids.

I'm not saying that lightly, they are children, get to call home

weekly now when you were on a mission, it was like what, Christmas

God.

And Mother's day.

Was that it?

Christmas and Mother's day and only for like 30 minutes.

Yeah, did you call from the mission office or from I'm

assuming from the mission office, right?

Cuz

No, we actually, um, would get apartments.

So we were responsible for finding our own apartments and then we had phones

in each apartment because it was kind of sketchy in some neighborhoods.

So we had the clock, we had to call into, like, the zone leader district

leader to say, hey, we got in you pretty much do, um, your daily report.

So, you'd say we taught five first charlas.

We made two connections.

We've lined up appointments, we've got blah, blah, blah.

And so you give your stats for the day.

And, um, we would be able to call from that phone from our,

our, we call them pinches.

So our apartment phone.

And, um, so we'd be able to call home from there like twice a year for half an hour.

Okay.

Because they're like, oh, the costs are so hard.

Were you ever tempted to call on other times?

We couldn't.

Yeah.

I remember I got to call my family one more time, but it was just because,

coincidentally, my first cousin, well, my brother, like my cousin brother, uh,

he was doing a Peace Corps mission in Uruguay and he came down to Buenos Aires

and he said he was walking down, uh, Buenos Aires, the streets, and then he

saw these guys in white shirts and he looked at him and he just said, Hey, my

cousin's doing what you guys are doing.

And they're like, oh.

And it could have been anywhere in the world, but it happened

to be the missionaries from my, my mission in downtown.

And he's like, oh yeah, what's his name?

And he's like, Theron Olivar.

And they looked at him.

They're like, Elder Olivar And he's like, I don't know what that

means, but yeah, I think his last name is, his last name's Olivar.

And then they're like, yeah, we know him.

And cause he was a buddy of mine, the assistant at the time.

And the assistants are the top two who are right next to the president.

So the mission president and the two assistants were missionaries

and they were out in the field.

So then I get a call and it's, it was Elder Gomez at the time.

And he's like, do you know Phillip?

And I'm thinking of like contact street contacts and all this stuff,

everybody in the mission field.

And I'm like, ooh, no.

And he's like, Oh, okay, so you don't have a cousin named Philip, right?

And I'm like, wait, yeah, I was like my first cousin, but, is he okay?

You know, first thing I'm like, is he okay?

And he's like, yeah, we saw, we met him and his wife in downtown in Buenos Aires.

And he said, if you can call him and I'm like, can I?

And so I got to call him and I got to meet him.

So he took a cool picture and send back to the family and all that.

But that, yeah, like his, it was so weird because like his wife came

my, my cousin in law and she came up and she was like trying to hug me

and I was like, oh, no, I'm sorry.

I can't just because I was so scared.

And my, and my companion was right next to me.

so so it was just awkward having to be like, hey, cuz, this is my companion.

And my cousin's looking at me like, who?

I don't get it, what is this?

So it wasn't until after the mission that I explained to him what, what

that was and why I couldn't go see him.

And he thought I was...

I would say looking in, I was in a cult and because he's like,

why can't Theron come see me?

Why can't Theron call me?

Why are you calling Elder?

That's not his name because he didn't understand that that's

what the title we went by.

Right.

But.

Oh, that's wild.

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