What is a puppy mill? Mark Finneran, Ohio State Director for the Humane Society of the United States shares information about puppy mills, their horrible practices, the problems with the current laws and what advocates are doing to help both the dogs and consumers.

Did you know that Ohio is the 2nd state in Commercial Dog Breeding and Broker licenses, second only to Missouri? This is not something that Ohioans should be proud of, and it is up to advocacy groups, government entities, and consumers to put a stop to this practice.

Please help us spread the word by liking, rating, and sharing this episode. If you live in Ohio, please consider signing the petition to Governor DeWine or sending him your own message about ending puppy mills.

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Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

2

This is your host, Dr.

3

G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

4

Today's guest is Mark Finneran,

the Ohio State Director for the

5

Humane Society of the United States.

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Welcome to the Junction, Mark.

7

Mark Finneran: Thank you so much, Dr.

8

G.

9

I'm very excited to be here.

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Appreciate you having me on.

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DrG: Oh, I'm glad that you're

here to talk about, especially to

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talk about this important topic.

13

But before we get into the nitty

gritty, how about you let our

14

listeners know about your background?

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What your experiences have been

and what has brought you to the

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position where you are today?

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Mark Finneran: Absolutely.

18

Yeah.

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So as you said, I'm the Ohio

State Director for the Humane

20

Society of the United States.

21

But my background really is in policy,

state government and politics, right?

22

When I was in college, I was a political

science major here at Ohio State and

23

thought I wanted to go into campaigns

and that world, uh, worked on a couple

24

of statewide campaigns here in Ohio.

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And then transitioned to working as

a legislative aide in the Statehouse.

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And I think it was really that experience.

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I mean, I always considered myself

to be an animal lover growing

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up, but maybe not an animal

advocate to the extent I am today.

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And it was my experience working

at the Statehouse around public

30

policy in a variety of policy

areas, from education to healthcare.

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One of my big takeaways from that

was, you know, if you don't advocate

32

for yourself, nobody else is

going to advocate for you, right?

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And so for animals, they're always at a

disadvantage because they cannot stand

34

up and speak for themselves, right?

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So we are so lucky to have

organizations like the Humane Society

36

of the United States and others,

and of course the generous people

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that support those organizations.

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To allow animal welfare to be represented

at the negotiating table when public

39

policy is made because it's so

important, you know, again, every other

40

interest is in there, um, negotiating

to make sure that they are benefiting

41

from whatever laws being passed.

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Nobody's going to speak up and

say, well, what about how's this

43

going to affect the beavers?

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Right?

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Unless somebody is sitting at that table

and and bring that bring that point up.

46

So.

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That's kind of my role, um, as

the State Director for the Humane

48

Society of the United States.

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Primarily, I'm a lobbyist.

50

I'm at the State House

working with legislators.

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Policymakers, um, legislative staff,

to try to make sure that we can pass

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legislation that helps animals and

prevent bad bills that's going to

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impact animals in some way, right?

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And that is related to, um, companion

animals, cats and dogs, but we also work

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on wildlife issues, farm animal work.

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everything in between.

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If it impacts animals and it's related

to public policy, we work on it.

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Um, I do that both at the

state level and locally.

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We also have a federal team in D.

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C.

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that's focused on, um, federal lobbying.

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DrG: And it is so important because I've

always been like, you know, the kind of

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person that is like, I hate politics,

I hate law, I hate all this stuff.

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And then as I have worked more with

animals, especially with animal neglect

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and cruelty cases and that kind of stuff,

I have seen the importance of the need.

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of advocating at those levels, you know,

like me helping an animal helps that

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animal, but me helping advocate at that

level then helps many animals, right?

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Mark Finneran: That's exactly right.

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I mean, I always tell people,

I don't blame you, you know, if

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you're jaded on politics, right?

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But no matter what you're working on,

um, public policy and politics has got

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to come into play at some point, right?

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So you might as well be engaged.

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You might as well pay attention.

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Um, and you're, you're absolutely

spot on with your point.

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Um, You know, anybody who works

with direct service for animals as

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a veterinarian or with a rescue or

humane society, I think it's natural

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to feel frustration of like, you

know, we're doing the best we can for

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the animals that come in the door.

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But why do they keep coming in

the door for the same reasons?

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Right?

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And that's what policy hopefully

begins to address is those root causes

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that can help lead to better outcomes

and, you know, make things better

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for the folks that are providing

service for animals on the ground.

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DrG: And as I'm learning little by little,

it is frustrating because things don't

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always go your way and it's really easy

to think, well, I'm just going to give

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up because clearly nobody's listening.

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But I have also learned the importance

of continuing and this actually case

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that we're going to be talking about

is, goes to that point of, you know,

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things don't always go the right way,

but then we just keep fighting to,

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to, you know, make something happen.

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Mark Finneran: Yeah, you

know, you're exactly right.

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It can be very frustrating and you never

know, though, what's going to turn the

94

tide and when you're going to have an

opportunity to really make a difference.

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So it's just continuing on and looking

for those opportunities that might be

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unexpected, but can be really impactful.

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DrG: So talking about this issue with the

puppy mills, I don't know that all of our

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listeners are aware of what the problem

with puppy mills is and then leading to

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what we're going to be talking about.

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So can you give a little bit of

background on history on this issue?

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Mark Finneran: Yeah.

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So I, I think a good place to

start is kind of, you know,

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what is a puppy mill, right?

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That's a question I get from

legislators and the public all the time.

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And the truth is, it's in the

eye of the beholder, right?

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Because to some people, any large

scale dog breeder, is a puppy mill,

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um, just inherently because once you

get to a certain number of dogs, you

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know, you can't, you can't name all

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large scale breeding operation, right?

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And over time, these dogs just

become numbers on a spreadsheet

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means to an end, a unit for sale.

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For HSUS, especially when we look at

puppy mills, It's a large scale breeder

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that is clearly cutting corners that

is sacrificing the health and welfare

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of the dogs under their care in order

to maximize their profit, right?

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And unfortunately, we see that

quite often, both in Ohio and

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other states across the country.

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And historically Ohio is a state

that has a lot of dog breeding

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operations in general and with that

comes these puppy mills, right?

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So that's been a historical challenge

for us as a state and as time has

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gone on we've tried various means to

kind of reign the puppy mill industry

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in, but progress has been slow and as

we'll talk about today, you know, we're

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still fighting this battle, right?

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So for a little bit of background,

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a law that put into law standards

of care that commercially licensed

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breeders in the state have to follow.

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And this is really just the basics.

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It's access to clean food and water.

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It's an hour of socialization

or outdoor time a day.

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It's the things that you and I

would consider to be the bare

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minimum for any dog or puppy, right?

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But unfortunately, we've seen

breeders time and time again failing

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to meet even these modest standards.

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And one of the great things that has come

out of this, um, this law in Ohio is the

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fact that we do have inspectors on the

ground that are actually going in and

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inspecting commercially licensed breeders.

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And, you know, we have, there's ways

that that system could be improved.

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We only have five inspectors for the

entire state of Ohio, which is not enough.

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But by and large, I think the

inspectors themselves do a pretty

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decent job of getting out to these

facilities and documenting violations.

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The problem we're seeing is that

the enforcement on the back end, um,

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it's just not up to snuff, right?

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And that's what we're

going to talk about today.

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DrG: So, I mean, realistically, what's

going to be the difference between a

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puppy mill and an exploiter hoarder?

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Like, is there any, any difference, right?

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Mark Finneran: Yeah.

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So, you know, a puppy

mill is a business, right?

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They're in it for the profit and, you

know, make no mistake, they're, they're

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doing pretty well for themselves.

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I mean, You know, these individual

puppies, if you're selling them

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direct to a consumer, they can be

sold for thousands of dollars a piece.

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And so it has become

big business over time.

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These operations have become pretty

built up and industrialized in a

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way that has had You know, some good

things have come with that, right?

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Like we've seen some improvement in

the 10 years or so that we've had

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inspections at commercial dog breeders.

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I think the baseline standard of care has

gotten a little bit better, but at the

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same time, you know, it does become more

of an industry where these dogs are just

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a means to an end and a way to make money.

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DrG: And what are going to be

the main problems that you find?

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With, like, the health issues and

conditions of these dogs in puppy mills.

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Mark Finneran: Yeah, so it really

does start with the basics.

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Dogs being kept in wire cages that are

not great for their paws, as you know.

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Dogs in cages that are

simply not being cleaned.

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Dogs that don't have access

to clean food and water.

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Um, beyond that, what we've seen,

especially in the past year, There

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have been a lot of issues with breeders

that are doing their own tail docking

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and dewclaw removal surgeries, right?

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And that was a big battle here

at the statehouse because under,

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in the Ohio revised code, it

says all surgical procedures must

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be performed by a veterinarian.

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Somehow that has been interpreted in a way

that allows breeders, you know, legally,

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under law, under administrative code, To

do their own procedures specifically for

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tail docking and do car removal because

those are considered cosmetic surgeries.

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As you can imagine, as a veterinarian,

I'm sure you know this very well, you

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know, these are not procedures that

laypeople are necessarily qualified to do.

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And right now, all the licensed

breeders need is just an instruction

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manual from their attending vet

on how to do this stuff, right?

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Unfortunately, and this is no surprise,

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a ton of stories of breeders using

toenail clippers, You know, hoof

181

pick, trimmers, stuff, anything,

you know, that you can imagine to do

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these tail docking and dewclaw removal

surgeries, um, with the consequences

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that you would think, think to follow.

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So it really is all over the board.

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I know the Ohio Department of Agriculture,

who administers this program, they

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say the most common violation that

they find is is just not getting a

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physical from other dogs, you know,

after they've been bred one time

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before they're bred the next time.

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And so nobody's even getting eyes or

hands on these dogs in between breeding

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cycles, which is incredibly concerning.

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DrG: One of the issues that I have

with this, I mean, I have issues

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with the whole thing, right?

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But with the whole calling it, not

a surgery because it's cosmetic.

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I mean, if we look at it from

the human medicine perspective,

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a facelift is cosmetic.

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However, a facelift needs to be done

by a licensed medical professional.

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And so, you know, just, just

saying, well, it's just cosmetic.

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It's not surgery.

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You're still cutting through skin.

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You're still cutting through bone.

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You're still doing

things that are surgical.

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You know, in nature.

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Mark Finneran: Yeah.

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I mean, your, your vet techs can't even

do a tail dock or dewclaw removal, right?

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DrG: Yeah, that's correct.

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And veterinary technicians

have to go through school and

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they get an associate's degree.

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So it's not like a veterinary

technician is just somebody that

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you pick off the street and you just

train them how to, you know, hold

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animals and play with puppies all day.

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These are people that are trained

in anesthesia, in surgeries.

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Like there are some surgical

procedures that they're allowed to do.

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And yet this so called

simple cosmetic procedure.

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If they do it, they

can lose their license.

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Mark Finneran: Exactly, and all a

breeder needs to do is go to, go to ODA,

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apply for a commercial breeding license

and somehow they're qualified to do

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surgeries that vet techs who, like you

said, have dedicated, you know, time

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and schooling to the care of animals

themselves are not licensed to do.

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It really is, uh, kind of

unbelievable to me that that's

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where we're at here in Ohio.

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DrG: Yeah, no, it's really, and

then the problems that I have with

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this so called instruction manual.

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First of all, you can just.

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It's not cookbook, you know, like

they're not, it's not a recipe to

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follow, but the, these instruction

manuals allegedly give the commercial

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breeders how to do the procedure and

then how to administer proper analgesia,

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how to, how to do proper sedation,

antibiotics and that kind of stuff.

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But.

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How are they supposed to do these

things when they don't have access

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to any of these things because

they're not medical professionals?

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Mark Finneran: It reminds me of like

when you have a project around the

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house and you go to YouTube and you

just like type in, you know, how

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to change a light bulb or whatever,

but it's surgery on an animal.

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It's, it's incredible to me that,

um, yeah, that's kind of where we're,

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we've landed on this issue where,

It's actually legal for them to do

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this stuff, and the only time they

get in trouble is when they use these

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outrageous tools, um, like toenail

clippers that are not actually approved

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for them to be doing these surgeries.

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DrG: And one of the things, you know,

is the fact that, okay, well, they

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may be allowed under these rules.

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However, what they're doing is

in essence illegal, if they cause

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harm to the animal, then they can

be prosecuted for animal cruelty.

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So it just seems like contradictory laws.

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Mark Finneran: Yeah,

you know, you're right.

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Um, that's the argument we tried

to make in front of the Joint

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Committee on Agency Rule Review that

ultimately approved the rule that

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allows breeders to do this stuff.

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Um, and to be honest,

it's still something that.

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I spent some time thinking about of

how we got to this point where a law

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that says surgeries shall be performed

by a veterinarian to carving out two

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specific procedures, you know, do

tail docking and do call removal.

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Those words do not appear

anywhere in state law, right?

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They were arbitrarily cut out and given

to the breeders to allow them to do this.

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Another counterexample here

is ear cropping, right?

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That's a cosmetic procedure.

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That is not allowed under this rule,

but, but that to me, that's completely

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an arbitrary district distinction.

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I mean, ear cropping is just, I guess,

considered to be a bit more painful or

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difficult to do, but those same things

apply to tail docking and dewclaw removal.

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DrG: Yeah, just because something may be

less difficult doesn't mean that it's not.

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Plus the, I mean, one of the reasons

why some veterinarians and groups

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fight technicians being able to do

certain procedures is not because

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of the procedure itself, but because

of the potential complications.

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What if something happens?

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What if the animal goes into arrest?

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What if additional drugs are needed?

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Where if there's a reaction?

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So, you know, there are reasons

behind it for not allowing Any

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procedure really to be done.

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Mark Finneran: So we've seen the

tragic outcomes that can happen when

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breeders are doing their own surgeries.

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Right?

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In 2020, a dog actually died at a

licensed breeding facility after a

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breeder did an in house dental cleaning.

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Right?

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And we'll never know exactly

what happened in that situation

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that led to that dog's death.

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Mhm.

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But it speaks to exactly what

you were just talking about.

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You need a veterinarian on hand

to deal with unexpected outcomes.

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Things happen when you're

doing surgery on animals.

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DrG: Yeah.

283

And then with the rules, as far as, you

know, the visits, you know, how the amount

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of time in between visits and that kind

of stuff, realistically, if one of these

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breeders does a procedure, a botched

procedure, and something happens to the

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dog, nobody's going to know about it.

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Mark Finneran: That's

one of the big concerns.

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Uh, and we hear this from rescues

and humane societies that take

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in dogs from puppy mills, right?

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There's ways for breeders.

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If they have a dog that they

don't want inspectors to see, they

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can get it off site, and it will

never really appear on the record.

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It will never be seen by

a state inspector, right?

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And the reality is there's groups that are

just being inundated with calls from the

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same breeders week after week after week.

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You need to take this dog.

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You need to take this litter

that I wasn't able to sell.

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And that's a, you know, Another huge piece

of this puzzle that I think, you know,

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when people think about puppy mills and

why they're wrong, of course we start

300

with the dogs at these facilities, but

it's the trickle down effects on the

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entire animal welfare community that is

just devastating with puppy mills that

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sometimes I think goes underreported.

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DrG: Yeah, and it can be so costly

because The rescue groups that we

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work with that are constantly getting

animals from puppy mills, it's not like

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they're bringing us a dog that only

needs spayed and neutered and gone.

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They often need really

extensive procedures.

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They come in with what we

consider trash mouth, right?

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Like they need multiple extractions,

antibiotics, pain medication.

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They have mammary tumors.

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They have other problems secondary to the

negligence that they suffered through.

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So instead of these rescue, you

know, a lot of people say, well,

312

why should a rescue charge 300 for

an adoption, 500 for an adoption?

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Well, because sometimes they're paying

up to 800, a thousand dollars just

314

to get these dogs into good enough

condition to be able to be adopted.

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Mark Finneran: Exactly.

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A lot of times rescues are taking

a financial loss when they take

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in puppy mill dogs because of the

veterinary care that's required.

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And there's that side.

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And then there's the behavioral side.

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You hear all the time about dogs

that are just emotionally shut down

321

because they've never been socialized.

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They've never been anything more

than just like a breeding dog.

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Right.

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And so it's both the medical

side, the behavioral side.

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to get an animal to the point where it's

ready to kind of start that new life, to

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join a new family and have a happy ending.

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And it can be so taxing for not only

the animals, but also these rescues.

328

And then, you know, an hour

later, they get another call about

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another dog that's getting dumped.

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And I don't blame them for being

overwhelmed because it does feel like.

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You know, it's just like a

nonstop, um, assault of, of

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dumped dogs from puppy mills.

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DrG: Yeah.

334

And then sometimes they, they won't

dump only to the rescues, right?

335

Like they do these, these auctions to

get rid of animals to just unsuspecting

336

people or, or even other breeders

that want to just exploit them more,

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you know, to the end that they can.

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Mark Finneran: It can

be a very ugly industry.

339

And, you know, when you said, talk about

unsuspecting consumers, nobody goes out

340

there trying to buy a puppy mill dog.

341

Right.

342

And nobody advertises a puppy mill dog.

343

So ultimately, you know, every consumer

that is buying one of these puppies,

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um, coming from these puppy mills,

you know, they're, they're victims in

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this whole situation as well, because.

346

You know, there's ways to do due diligence

as a consumer, but it can be difficult,

347

especially when you're being told, Oh,

this is a licensed, inspected facility.

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You know, you have faith that that

really means something about the

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quality of where this is coming from.

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And one of the arguments we've made

to regulators and network makers is it

351

should mean something when a breeder

is licensed by the state of Ohio.

352

But right now, You know, it doesn't matter

what you do because you'll continue to

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get licensed year after year after year.

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DrG: Yeah, and that is a really

important point because as you said,

355

nobody wants a dog from a puppy mill.

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Many people say, I don't

support puppy mills.

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And if you say, Oh, this dog was from

a puppy mill, you always get that

358

reaction of, Oh my God, poor dog.

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Yeah.

360

They suck.

361

They're horrible.

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But these are the same people that are

going to pet stores and buying dogs that

363

are coming from puppy mills because the

people selling them the the dogs are.

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The first question that

the person will say is.

365

Is this dog from a puppy mill?

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And then they're told, no,

it's not from a puppy mill.

367

And then the, the consumer

is like, oh, okay.

368

Thank God, because I want to

make sure that I'm not supporting

369

puppy mills and yet they are.

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Mark Finneran: And that question

usually comes after the consumer has

371

kind of fallen in love with that puppy.

372

Right.

373

And so when you're told no, no, mom

and mom and dad are, you know, home on

374

the farm and they're happy and they're

running around, you want to believe that

375

because this is your new family member

that you're excited to welcome in, um,

376

and have become part of your family.

377

So there's kind of this, you know, I think

it's the reason we see scams happening

378

in the puppy industry in general.

379

Like you hear about people buying dogs

online that, that never exists, right?

380

These are inherently, on some level,

an emotional decision to add a member

381

to your family, add a companion

animal that's going to be living

382

with you for hopefully a decade plus.

383

It's not like buying

a refrigerator, right?

384

So we need to have protections for

both animals and consumers to make

385

sure they're not being ripped off.

386

DrG: Yeah, and you know, as a forensic

veterinarian, I have evaluated some cases

387

of, of neglect by, by pet stores and

by the breeders that are selling them.

388

And I am seeing records of, yeah,

USDA inspection was good, but then I'm

389

looking further in into their state

inspections, and I'm seeing lots and lots

390

of complaints from the state inspection.

391

So there's a little bit of a disconnect

sometimes between the USDA inspection

392

and the, and the local inspections.

393

Mark Finneran: That is true, and

it's a trend we've seen as well.

394

And it can happen both ways, where

the state records will be clean,

395

but on the USDA inspections, you'll

see very concerning violations.

396

And And then it happens vice versa

where USDA inspections come back

397

clean, but the state is documenting

issue after issue after issue.

398

And part of that comes down to there are

different standards that they're kind of

399

that their inspectors are looking for.

400

But, you know, to me, it

does speak to the value.

401

of having multiple levels

of oversight, right?

402

Because even with USDA and ODA inspectors,

we know puppy mills are still slipping

403

through the cracks, but at least we

have a little bit more insight into

404

the problem we need to solve because

of these state inspections, right?

405

And that's always the first

step to solving any problem.

406

You have to know what you're dealing with.

407

Um, so at least we've,

we're kind of getting there.

408

Now, how the question is,

how do we actually solve this

409

problem and end puppy mills?

410

DrG: So tell our listeners

about this letter to Dewine.

411

Like, what was the purpose behind it?

412

And what do, what do you

hope to gain from it?

413

Mark Finneran: Yeah, so the

Ohio Department of Agriculture

414

is a state agency that does a

bunch of different stuff, right?

415

But one of the programs they have is this,

um, commercial dog breeding oversight.

416

And we've been working with them

ever since the law was put into place

417

for these inspections and for these

standards of care to fully enforce

418

the laws that we have on the books.

419

And that's always the challenge

with any advocacy, right?

420

Passing a law is a huge win, but it's only

going to have to battle because if a law

421

isn't being properly and fully enforced,

it doesn't really do anything for anyone.

422

So for us, we've been working with

ODA for years to try to make sure that

423

when bad breeders, um, are popping up

when serious violations happen, that

424

there are consequences to follow that.

425

And the law grants them

a number of powers.

426

Um, as well as obligations to

stop licensing breeders that have

427

serious violations that are actually

threatening the health and welfare

428

of the dogs under their care.

429

And our big issue is just the fact

that so far nobody's lost their license

430

because of an animal welfare violation

at a state licensed dog breeder.

431

Despite the fact that dogs have

died in breeding facilities

432

because of things like DIY dentals.

433

Dogs have suffered in these facilities.

434

And so the line of what is too far

for a dog breeder has never really

435

been drawn by the state of Ohio.

436

And the end result is that, you know,

word gets around within the breeding

437

community about this stuff, right?

438

And so Ohio has sent the message.

439

We are open for business to puppy

mills, whether it's intentional

440

or not, that's the message we're

sending to the breeding community.

441

So for us, having worked with ODA for

years and not gotten the results we

442

wanted to see, ultimately, they answer

up to Governor DeWine, just like any

443

other state cabinet agency, right?

444

He appoints their director, and

he has broad authority to kind

445

of direct what they're doing.

446

Governor DeWine, um, you know,

doesn't have a track record on this

447

issue specifically either way, right?

448

He hasn't talked a lot about it.

449

I know he has a rescue dog at home.

450

Um, so we're very hopeful that if he takes

an interest in this, if he takes action

451

and puts pressure on ODA to fully enforce

their laws, that could completely change

452

the game, um, for how we're enforcing

these laws here in Ohio, and at least

453

get rid of what we call the low hanging

fruit in the puppy mill industry, right?

454

The egregious violators that appear

on lists like the horrible hundred.

455

year after year after year,

those people do not deserve to

456

be licensed as commercial dog

breeders in the state of Ohio.

457

And that's true from an animal welfare

perspective, but also a perspective

458

of just our reputation as a state

is on the line with this stuff.

459

We are well known as one of the worst

puppy mill states in the country, and

460

we need to take steps to sort of rectify

that and fix our reputation nationwide.

461

DrG: Yeah, I mean, we're,

we're number two, right?

462

Reg number two as far as the

worst state for puppy mills.

463

Mark Finneran: Exactly.

464

So on this year's Horrible 100 report,

which is a list of a hundred known

465

bad breeders and dog brokers in

the country that the Humane Society

466

of the United States puts together

every year, we are number two with

467

20 appearances out of a hundred.

468

So one out of every five puppy mills

on the Horrible 100 is unfortunately

469

located right here in Ohio.

470

DrG: So this also was not just HSUS

supporting this letter, like you had a

471

huge number of, of advocacy groups, right?

472

And how important is that to have all

of this extra support to this letter?

473

Mark Finneran: I'm so excited and proud

of the animal welfare community coming

474

together behind this common message.

475

It's, it is so necessary for us to

speak with one voice on this issue.

476

And yes, it was, um, 20 different

organizations, humane societies,

477

rescues, animal welfare organizations

like HSUS, uh, and, and veterinarians

478

coming together to, to deliver

this message to the governor.

479

And look, you know how hard it

can be to get a coalition of 20

480

different groups to agree on anything.

481

Um, and this is a pretty big step for

the animal welfare community to make

482

this direct appeal to the governor.

483

Um, so I'm just so thankful that,

um, everyone has been willing

484

to speak up on this and really

come together to get this done.

485

DrG: And on the other side is the

community can help support this.

486

So what can the community members do?

487

Mark Finneran: That's

absolutely essential.

488

We need folks, if you're in Ohio,

to contact the governor and ask

489

him to take action on puppy mills.

490

Right?

491

We're not on an even playing field here.

492

As I mentioned, these dog breeders

can sell dogs for thousands of dollars

493

and they are very well established

as an influential lobby, um, big

494

business that has a lot of say and a

lot of power around the statehouse.

495

And on the other side, you know, we have

groups like rescues that are completely

496

volunteer led humane societies that

are completely powered by volunteers.

497

And so we don't have the same resources.

498

All we have is kind of like the truth

and, you know, we're on the right side

499

of this issue, but that cannot be that

oftentimes that's not enough, right?

500

So we need the public to speak out and

to get involved and to let the governor

501

know that this isn't something we're just

gonna, um, sit by while Ohio continues

502

to have puppy mills in our state.

503

DrG: Where can listeners

go to help support this?

504

Is there a place that they can go to be

part of the petition to the governor?

505

Mark Finneran: There is, so on our

Facebook page Humane Society of the United

506

States, Ohio, you see, you'll see a link

to our action alert where you can send

507

an email to the governor, but you can

also just go online and Google contact

508

governor to wine and you'll see a form

where you can quickly send them an email.

509

You can call his office.

510

And I even encourage people to

write a handwritten letter, right?

511

The old fashioned way.

512

Yeah.

513

That can, that can make a

difference a lot of the times.

514

When I used to work in the state

legislature, letters would be few and far

515

between, but that's something that people

would read and really pay attention to.

516

So, if you have a few minutes to, to,

to jot down a letter and send it to the

517

governor, that can be really impactful.

518

DrG: And, and a respectful and

professional letter, right?

519

We don't want to be Passing the

governor out and saying you're not

520

doing your effing job or whatever.

521

Like that's not what

we're looking for, right?

522

Mark Finneran: That is exactly right.

523

And I appreciate you

mentioning that, right?

524

People respond well.

525

Um, when, when you give them

an opportunity to do what

526

you're asking basically, right?

527

And the governor truly does have a chance

here to be a hero for these dogs to kind

528

of step up in a way that many, you know,

elected officials have had the chance

529

to do and kind of passed on in the past.

530

So You know, this is something

we see that is a legacy

531

defining issue for the governor.

532

And if he takes this chance to be a

savior for dogs and puppy mills, that's

533

something that he should get credit for.

534

DrG: Yeah, I mean, everybody likes dogs

and even people that don't like animals.

535

They don't want to see the animals hurt.

536

So you don't have to be a dog

lover to not want a dog to be

537

in these conditions, right?

538

So it's going to be, it's

going to be important for,

539

for consumers who are voters.

540

Mark Finneran: And one of the things

I really appreciate about this issue

541

is that it's not ideological, right?

542

Just like you said, everyone,

there's a shared sense of respect.

543

Um, and and love for

other living creatures.

544

And that's something that brings us

together across party lines across

545

some of the traditional divides

we see on other policy issues

546

is we can all agree that people

shouldn't be hurting puppies, right?

547

Hopefully we can all agree on that.

548

And so again, I really see this as an

opportunity for the governor to bring the

549

state together around a good cause and and

do something that we all know is right.

550

DrG: What would you recommend to

consumers for protecting themselves

551

from making a puppy mill purchase?

552

Mark Finneran: Well, the best way to

avoid supporting a puppy mill is not to

553

purchase a dog from a breeder, right?

554

Go to your humane society, go to

a rescue and find an animal that,

555

um, you know, just needs a home.

556

Uh, and I think the most common reason

I hear that people, you know, want to go

557

to a breeder is because they're looking

for a specific type of dog, right?

558

What I always say is, you know,

you're making a 10 to 15 year.

559

investment in this animal, you

don't need to go out and get

560

this puppy tomorrow, right?

561

So give it some time and work

with those organizations.

562

If you go to your humane society and

say, this is the kind of dog I'm looking

563

for, they might not have it there that

day, but they can help you connect you

564

with that animal, you know, a week,

a month down the line, and you'll be

565

able to make a choice as a consumer

that you really feel good about.

566

If you are going to a dog breeder,

The biggest thing that you can look

567

for is a breeder that wants, wants you

to come see the animal, see the puppy

568

and see where it was raised, right?

569

Invites you in to that, that environment.

570

And then you can see firsthand,

you know, what kind of

571

environment they were raised in.

572

And generally you want a breeder that's

interested in you as a potential match

573

for their puppy, just as interested

in that as you are in the dog, right?

574

Because the worst, one of the biggest

red flags is if they want to meet

575

you in like a Best Buy parking lot,

they're just trying to make a sale.

576

They just look at this dog

as a way to make a buck.

577

A truly responsible breeder wants to

make sure these puppies that they care

578

about and love are going to loving homes.

579

DrG: Yeah, I know that things that we

personally recommend is going to be

580

making sure that they have a veterinarian

overseeing the, the care of the

581

puppies and the parents that they're

not just giving their own vaccines

582

and doing their own, their own things.

583

And then some of these more uh,

responsible breeders are going to have

584

in their contract that if there, if there

is a problem with the puppy, it doesn't

585

work out anymore to bring the puppy back.

586

Right.

587

So that it doesn't end up in a shelter.

588

It doesn't end up in a bad situation.

589

Mark Finneran: Exactly.

590

Yeah.

591

And it, It always comes back to, you

know, look for a breeder that cares

592

about the puppies that they're raising.

593

And there's so many different ways to

kind of be able to pick up on that, but

594

ultimately that's what you're looking for.

595

DrG: I, I like to say adopt, don't

shop, but if you must shop, do

596

it responsibly because we want to

take care of the animals, right?

597

Mark Finneran: And that's what, you

know, when you talk about like the,

598

the puppies being sold in pet stores,

that's the problem with that business

599

model at kind of like a base level.

600

It's impossible for a consumer to

know where a dog came from when

601

they're buying it in a pet store.

602

Because again, you know, you can be

told that they were from a licensed

603

breeder or whatever, but you can't

see that firsthand as a consumer.

604

And so you're setting consumers up to fail

when you sell them in this environment.

605

Where it's just a puppy in a window with

no context about where that dog came

606

from, you know, any of, any of, any of its

breeding conditions or anything like that.

607

DrG: Yeah, and again, a licensed breeder,

the way that they're allowed to keep these

608

animals is not necessarily the way that

we would want to keep our pets, right?

609

It's like, they're allowed to

keep them in these small cages in

610

these, you know, bad situations and

being fed the way that they are.

611

So yes, they are licensed, but

that doesn't really mean anything.

612

Mark Finneran: Exactly.

613

Being a licensed breeder should be an

indicator of high quality, and that's

614

just not the case given the way these

laws are being enforced right now.

615

And that's one of the biggest things

we feel that we need to change.

616

DrG: Excellent.

617

Well, hopefully with everybody coming

together to work, and this is what I

618

would consider kind of like a bipartisan

type issue, but Unfortunately, it

619

doesn't seem to always go that way, but

everybody should get behind this and and

620

do what's best and to eliminate puppy

mills and do what's best for the animal.

621

Mark Finneran: That's our hope.

622

This is an issue that can

bring people together.

623

And yeah, I think we're going to be okay

for consumers to be able to get a dog

624

that works for their family without these

puppy mills churning out litter after

625

litter after litter, because the reality

is that's just filling up our rescues and

626

our humane societies with dumped dogs.

627

DrG: Is there anything that

we haven't covered that you

628

feel that we need to bring up?

629

Mark Finneran: I don't think so.

630

I just want to thank you so much for

the opportunity to be on the podcast

631

and kind of spread the word about this.

632

Um, and that's it.

633

DrG: Excellent.

634

Well, thank you so much Mark for being

here and for everything that you're

635

doing and for everybody who's listening.

636

Thanks for listening and

thank you for caring.

637

Mark Finneran: Thank you, Dr.

638

G.