RQ: The Relational Intelligence Podcast w/ Dolphin Kasper

"From Crippling Shame to Incredible Connection: Embracing Growth & Authentic Relationships with Shane Kohler"

In this Episode of the Relationship Intelligence Podcast, Shane Kohler discusses the challenges of dating and relationships, emphasizing the importance of staying grounded and clear. He also explores the balance between online dating and real-world connections. As a coach, Shane provides practical takeaways for listeners to implement in their own lives.

The conversation concludes with a discussion on preparing for the interview and the distribution of the video format. Overall, the conversation highlights the difficulties of dating, the need for self-awareness, and the importance of personal growth in relationships. The conversation explores the themes of shame, self-worth, and healing. It delves into the importance of addressing shame and working with it in order to develop a positive and healthy sense of self.

The role of identity and somatic elements in the healing process is discussed, emphasizing the need to reframe one's identity and release stagnant energy from the body. Practical steps for healing are provided, including body scanning and breathing exercises. The conversation also touches on the role of the ego in healing and the importance of practical experience in personal growth. Finally, the challenges of finding authentic connection in the modern world are explored, along with the importance of acceptance and exploring one's passion.

In this conversation, Dolphin Kasper and Shane Kohler discuss the paradox of self-acceptance and personal growth. They explore the importance of embracing the dark night of the soul and how it can lead to transformation. Shane shares his personal journey of going from jail to healing and how it impacted his relationships. They also discuss finding love and connection in challenging times and the power of going to the edges and coming back. The conversation concludes with a focus on shifting the focus from dating to connection.

Key takeaways:

• Addressing shame and working with it is crucial for developing a positive and healthy sense of self.
• Reframing one's identity and releasing stagnant energy from the body are important steps in the healing process.
• Practical exercises such as body scanning and breathing can help release tension and promote healing.
• The ego can hinder healing and it is important to surrender control and allow the healing process to unfold naturally.
• Practical experience and taking action are essential for personal growth and development.
• Finding authentic connection in the modern world can be challenging, but accepting oneself and exploring passions can help in building meaningful relationships. Self-acceptance and personal growth are not contradictory but rather complementary. It's about becoming more of yourself and embracing your journey as a work in progress.
• The dark night of the soul is an opportunity for growth and self-discovery. It is in facing our deepest fears and uncertainties that we find wisdom and transformation.
• Finding love and connection requires a shift in mindset from seeking to acquire something to creating meaningful connections. It's about cultivating connection in all areas of life and being open to the possibilities.
• Going to the edges and coming back is a powerful journey that allows us to bring depth and wisdom to our relationships. It is through facing our own darkness that we can truly appreciate the light.

https://relationflix.com/from-crippling-shame-to-incredible-connection-embracing-growth-authentic-relationships-with-shane-kohler

Biggest

pieces that people are getting stuck on?

I think the biggest thing that people get stuck on is.

Hello

everyone,

welcome to the show.

Feeling pretty good today.

I'm in Edmonton right now.

It is well this morning -33 with -40 as wind chill and I'm in Celsius.

I'm up in Canada.

But actually when you get that cold,

they kind of,

I think they match up at -44 So our American friends understand kind of what I'm talking about.

But I find these more challenging mornings when I get up and face them,

I just feel more sharp the rest of the day.

And,

and there's a parallel there.

I think there's,

there's something about when we show up to what's difficult in relationships,

it allows for everything else about the relationship to run just so much more smoothly.

Where we feel better about ourselves,

we feel better about how we showed up.

Our partner feels more more sort of seen and held by us.

So I'm just like to weave that little parallel.

And really happy to have Shane Kohler on the,

on the program today.

We met what's probably a couple of years ago now.

I was checking him out on Instagram.

He's very active there.

He's passionate.

He clearly really knows what he's talking about.

I think in this day and age there,

there can be a kind of like overly positive coaching,

like this sort of affirmation coaching that just says like,

yeah,

just do this thing and it'll all be great.

And like,

I see Shane as someone who's bringing in the goods,

you know,

like this is this is how it is.

This is where the mistakes happen.

This is where it gets messy and this is how you find your way back.

So really appreciate Shane taking the time to join us.

And I'm really excited about what we're going to get into today.

So Shane,

thank you for being here.

Hey,

thanks for having me.

It's really great to be here.

So Shane is founder of the Conscious Love Show podcast and the Inspired Love program.

This is sort of the body of his work.

And you know,

we were just before we got on the call,

Shane was speaking about some of the pieces that he got trained in when he started.

And even though I don't want to stay there,

I would love to hear Shane from you.

From

that training and obviously all the experience you've had since then,

what do you feel like are the biggest pieces that people are getting stuck on in sort of modern times?

And what is it that your approach uses to most effectively address those pieces?

Yeah,

yeah,

great question.

And when you ask the question,

are you talking like specifically in relationship and dating?

Like,

where are you asking about when people get stuck?

Yeah,

well,

I mean,

the the audience for for the Best Relationship podcast is pretty diverse,

but I'm always interested with each guest.

Like what's your center of gravity?

So we talked a little bit before we got on the air that you're working with a lot of singles.

And so let's go there for for those single folks.

If you're partnered,

I think this is still going to be relevant for you.

But for those single folks that are coming to you,

like what are they most getting stuck on?

What,

what feels sort of sticky and difficult for them and then what for you feels like the magic ingredient,

like what do you consistently find is helping these people just get more connected and,

and more clear about how to move forward in,

in their love life?

So I,

I,

I think the biggest thing that people get stuck on is like dating is hard,

right?

Like it,

it just is,

it's,

it's just hard.

Like they're,

I don't want to say it sucks,

but there are elements about it that suck right?

Like,

like you're dealing with rejection,

you're dealing with like getting your hopes up and being let down.

You know,

you're dealing with like getting to know someone and you like them and there's this Gray area and,

and like you got to,

you got to stay positive and connected and you know all of that,

but you don't know where it's going.

And like,

you know,

every,

every day you want to be like,

just fucking tell me where this is going,

right?

So,

so like,

there's

a lot to navigate.

It is challenging,

it's vulnerable,

it touches us in like the deepest ways and it,

it triggers our deepest insecurities.

And,

and

to,

I think it's important to say that most of us are not approaching this from a clean slate either.

Like most of us are approaching this with a lot of relational trauma,

whether it comes from our parents,

whether it comes from past relationships,

whether it comes from being bullied at school or whatever,

right?

So it's not like we're approaching this with a clean slate.

We're approaching it with a lot of trauma already.

And then we're putting ourselves like in the fire where the trauma is being triggered all the time and somehow trying to stay positive,

stay focused,

stay motivated,

feel good about ourselves,

be attractive,

be connected.

Like,

it's hard,

right?

And so I think where a lot of people get stuck.

Is not really being present to how hard it is.

And then when they confront the hardship of it,

they go,

oh,

I did something wrong,

something's wrong with me.

If,

if I was better,

if I was more,

if I was more attractive,

if I was smarter,

if I was sexier,

if I was more likable,

if I was more worthy,

if there was something different about me,

this would be easier.

And

no,

it's hard.

It's hard for everyone.

There's nothing wrong with you.

It's just the nature of it,

right.

And so I

think we've got to kind of mentalize ourselves like this is the journey of a lifetime.

Like it's like it's maybe

a more of a masculine example,

but it's like slaying a dragon.

Like

you're,

you're going on the adventure of a lifetime and

you've got to be prepared for that adventure.

You've got to be willing to go on the journey.

You've got to be willing to have all those experiences and,

and you've,

you've got to learn how to have them because like I said,

we're not starting with a clean slate.

We're starting with trauma.

And so starting out,

we don't even know how to do this.

We don't even know how to feel about it.

We don't even know how to think about it.

We're,

we're operating from a bunch of stuff from our past that doesn't even work right.

So we've got to understand what the journey is.

We've got to prepare ourselves for it.

We've got to be willing to go on the whole journey and we've got to learn and grow as we do it because what we learned from our parents,

what we learned from school like that is not going to help us in this domain.

So that's where I think people are getting stuck.

If that's a good enough answer.

Totally.

Well,

I hear you talking about shame and,

you know,

and,

and self worth.

And I,

I think it's almost everyone in the world is walking around with some version of I'm not good enough and

not all the same.

You know,

I don't think we all have the exact same package in terms of,

you know,

the mess we were born into with whatever our parents unfinished stuff is or the journey that we've been on so far.

But but as you say,

I don't think anyone gets off the hook,

I think.

Maybe

especially in this kind of Instagram TikTok culture,

we're getting everyone's highlight reels.

People are trying to put forward the very best possible version of themselves and it gives us a slanted,

dishonest view of others,

right?

We get the whole story of ourselves and maybe an embellished story on the negative side of ourselves while we look at everyone's highlight reel.

And then of course,

we would come to a place where we feel that way.

For you,

what's,

what's the best way to approach and work with those pieces of shame that I think,

again,

everyone has some version of,

but not exactly the same,

right?

They might have a different genesis point or there might be certain domains where we feel good enough and then other domains where we feel like we just don't belong.

How do you work with people around that piece?

So there are really two major elements to my approach.

One is what I would call like the identity element.

And then one is what I would call the somatic element.

I think they're,

they're both,

both important.

So the

identity element is how I think about myself,

how I feel.

It's,

it's like basically who I believe I am,

right?

Like when I look in the mirror in the morning,

who do I think is looking back at me,

right?

Like that's the identity.

And you know,

to to touch on the shame and the unworthiness,

it's like most

of our identities are wrapped up with shame and unworthiness.

And I think it's if you don't live in this work,

if you don't like,

if you don't do this all the time,

like it's kind of difficult to understand like why that is or how that happens.

But I've often used the example.

It's like if you're,

if you're a child and you steal a cookie from the cookie and

then your parent comes and like yells at you for it,

right?

And like,

that child was so innocent,

right?

Like that,

like that child was so innocent.

Like just wanted a cookie.

Like there's nothing more innocent than a child wanting a cookie,

right?

And so you go and you steal that cookie out of the cookie jar with this like just the joy of being a child and the innocence of,

you know,

wanting a cookie and then you get yelled at for it.

And the contrast between I'm,

I just wanted a cookie and now I'm getting yelled at for it.

It's like,

wait,

it's like in the mind of a child,

it's like,

what the hell is happening right now?

And

the only way we can really reconcile that is to go,

there must be something wrong with.

And I'm,

I'm using a very basic example right now,

but like,

think about,

like when you showed your parents your report card or,

or think about when you were told to go to your room or think about when you,

you know,

blew something up in the microwave and you know,

your parents yelled at you or whatever,

right?

Like,

like just think about these experiences that we go through that there's a movement now about conscious parenting.

And I think so many modern parents are really being present to how do we raise our children to not damage them?

But that was not a movement in our generation.

And it was like kids got beat,

kids got yelled at,

kids got grounded,

kids got punished.

And,

and I'm not saying that we should never discipline our children,

but but like the way it was handled then is very different than the way it's being handled now.

And,

and now a lot of people are still handling it that way.

But

I,

I think we've got to recognize that we were raised in a certain culture that used shame as a control method,

right?

Like,

like our parents shamed us into being the children that they thought we were supposed to be.

And their parents did that to them.

And so we are being brought up in a culture of shame and unworthiness.

And by the time you reach adulthood,

it is already there,

right?

And so the,

the identity aspect,

going back to the question is

about reframing that identity,

right?

It's about starting to recognize,

OK,

I have a history that has taught me one thing about myself.

Now I need to start teaching myself something new about I

need to start to recognize my gifts,

my attributes,

the things that make me amazing,

my talents.

I've got to start like really using those in a powerful way and really seeing myself in the world,

being an amazing person and really start to create this identity.

Like,

wow,

I'm amazing.

Like,

wow,

I'm a catch.

Like somebody would be lucky to be with me.

Like we have to actively create that identity.

And

that's the first part.

The second part is the somatic piece.

And this is like it's

more subconscious because it lives in the body,

not in the mind,

right?

So the identity is more conscious.

We're more aware of the self talk or the things we think about ourselves.

Like we're very present to that.

The

somatic stuff we're not so present to it lives inside of us,

but we don't think about it,

you know,

we don't talk about it.

It's just there and it feels like a tension.

It feels like a heaviness.

It feels like when,

you know,

we get triggered,

It feels like an intense reaction in our body.

In those moments when you're acting crazy and you know you shouldn't be doing what you're doing,

but you're doing it anyway and you can't stop yourself,

it's like that's when your body has taken over.

That's when these limiting

impressions from your past are overriding your conscious mind and like,

making your choices for you.

And

so we've got to reframe the identity and we've also got to move the old energy out of the body.

And

so there

are lots of ways,

like there are lots of methods,

and maybe we can get into some of that.

But just in a nutshell,

like those are really the two things that need to happen,

right?

You need to create this new identity.

You need to get rid of whatever it is that you're carrying in your body in terms of weight and stagnant energy and trauma so you can finally feel free in your life.

And then from that place,

you're really ready to move forward and empower.

Got

it.

Yeah.

And I think some people are probably already nodding their head and really getting what you're talking about.

Other people might be going.

So

maybe could you say like,

what's one thing that you think someone who wants to start to work with more

positive,

healthy,

connected sense of self,

what could they start to do that would make a difference?

And,

and in terms of moving the somatic piece and allowing us to kind of discharge and dissipate long held pieces in our body that are kind of holding the the whole kind of constellation of trauma and and unmet need in place.

So like one for each?

Yeah,

yeah.

So

for the somatic piece,

I'll

just give a really,

really simple practice.

And I I mean,

look,

I've,

I'll just say this by saying like I've done trainings where like we literally like screamed it out and like beat pillows and stuff,

right?

And,

and you know,

I've done intense breath work where we would like breathe intensely for like a full 2 hours.

And so the

realm of somatic work is huge in terms of the different ways we can actually work this stuff out of our bodies.

But I'm going to give a really simple practice is you can do it anytime.

It doesn't really take more than 5 minutes.

And actually,

if you started,

if you've never done anything before and you started to practice this for like 5 minutes a day and,

and maybe increasing it to 10 or 15 minutes over time,

like you would start to feel so free inside your body and

all you got to do is just sit still.

You know,

if you sit in like a meditation pose or,

or some kind of comfortable pose where you just sit still and you just like do a body scan right from head to toe,

you just do a body scan and you just notice any significant sensations in your body.

Like I know for me,

like I always hold my tension like right here on my shoulder line.

It's just like 100% of the time when I like start checking in,

that's where it is.

Like I just feel it right there,

right?

Some people say like I always feel a knot in my stomach,

or I always feel a knot in my throat,

or I feel like a shortness of breath,

like I can't get a full breath.

So there are different kinds of things you might feel,

but whatever it is for you is what you want to pay attention to.

And so you just start to check in.

You start to notice wherever you feel the tension,

the tightness,

the resistance inside your body,

like a physical sensation.

And

then you just breathe into that place with big deep breaths.

And you kind of visualize like if you like in my shoulders,

for example,

I might visualize like energy just kind of rising up off my shoulders,

like just kind of moving out of my shoulders,

right?

Or,

or you might,

you might visualize like if it's in your chest,

you feel like a tightness in your chest.

You might visualize like an expansion,

right?

Like just imagine that tightness in your chest just opening up and expanding,

but you're breathing into that place in your body.

Like very intentionally focused breathing into that specific spot in your body,

visualizing the opening,

the release,

the expansion.

And again,

if you practice this for 5 minutes a day,

like you

will systematically release stagnant energy from your body every single day,

and you do that for 30 days,

you will feel completely different inside your body.

Like I'd be willing to bet like you will let go of chronic pain you've had like just because it all of the pain,

the headaches,

the migraines,

like it all comes from the stuff we're carrying in our body in

terms of identity.

A simple practice that I've had recommended to me many times over the years is like,

sit down and make a list of like 50 things that are amazing about you,

right?

And like you imagine like writing out 50 things that are amazing about you.

Like that.

That's a lot.

It's to

really sit there and dig that deep and like find thing,

Oh,

I love this about myself.

I love this about myself.

If you were to do that every day,

you know,

you make some time in the morning to just make a list.

It doesn't even have to be 50 things start with 20 things,

right?

But just every day it's like starting to starting to direct yourself thought and yourself talk in a different way,

because most of us,

I

mean,

I'm sure your listeners will notice this about themselves.

It's like you do something and your immediate response is oh,

I'm such an idiot or a what the fuck is wrong with me or why did I do that or when will I ever learn right?

And it's like,

we've got to start to move that in a different direction.

Like that can't be the most automatic thing.

And

so a simple practice,

like just everyday,

taking time to clarify and acknowledge things that are amazing about you will start to shift your perception of yourself over time.

Lazar.

And

when there's a traumatic experience and we kind of shut down or close off or become really rigid,

we kind of freeze that state in our system and that state needs up the proper kind of process

based distribution and and sort of dissolution of the trauma state of the dysregulated state.

And when we when we have tension in our body.

That's a state that has been practiced over time since traumatic experiences.

And now it's it's almost like it runs on its own.

And so bringing conscious awareness to a space and breathing,

consciously breathing into a space is doing something that you likely weren't doing.

Like likely there's an unconscious way that you hold that tension.

And likely when that tension first started to happen for you as a result of some disconnection,

dissociation,

dysregulation,

there was a tension in your breathing.

And so the breathing awareness of the tension in the breathing through the tension essentially is sending a signal to your body,

hey,

yes,

that happened.

And yes,

there was a need to to do something about it.

But now that need is no longer here.

So instead of it just being this mental idea of like,

Oh yeah,

that was the past.

And now I'm here working with the body,

working with somatics is like physically telling the system that it can let go of this piece that it's been carrying for so long.

So I,

I love,

again,

that's just the simplicity of that.

And,

and it made me think of,

I want to bring one more thing and I'm curious what you have to say about it.

But there's,

I assume you've heard of EMDR,

the,

the eye movement,

desensitization training and therapy.

And so one of the things that I've heard around why that's effective is that when

we're moving through a space,

when we're actively in an empowered way moving through a space,

our eyes are naturally,

they're not focused on one thing or our eyes are naturally actually looking laterally regularly to track the environment as we make our way through the environment.

And much of the trauma response shows up as a freeze.

And so to engage a memory,

tend to feel that memory in your body and to move your eyes essentially is doing the same thing as what I just framed.

It's like it's telling your system,

we are moving here.

We are not frozen.

I am not stuck in this place.

I'm not stuck as a victim to this threat.

I'm actually moving through this experience in an empowered way.

And that's again,

that's subconscious that that's operating.

But but I think we can take some pieces from that and go what are the ways in which I can engage?

Similar or same states of tension or dysregulation in a new way,

in a way that feels more empowered,

in a way that's more actively engaging it and that somehow that naturally allows our system to integrate these traumas.

So I just want to kind of bring that piece in where

I'd actually like to go is so

we've had these experiences,

shame and in a sense of a lack of self worth is often how those pieces.

Again,

you talked about it as like a way to make sense of which I totally agree with.

Like shame is just one way we make sense of why this pain,

why this mistreatment from others.

Oh,

something's wrong with me.

Like it's not a nice belief,

but it's a belief that grounds us in a way.

It's like it's a belief that makes us go.

Now I understand.

I always say like we're way more oriented

to pain we can understand than pain we can't understand.

And so we'll actually,

yeah,

go ahead.

Well,

I was going to say,

you've got to put yourself in the mind of a child,

right?

Because,

you know,

as adults,

we can go,

oh,

my mom was stressed out.

Oh,

she was overworked.

Oh,

she didn't get enough sleep.

Oh,

I was running around driving her crazy.

Like,

as an adult,

we can say all of that,

but a child doesn't know that.

Like,

a child can't understand that.

So a child,

like,

literally the only thing they can get a hold of is something's wrong with it.

Yeah,

beautiful.

And and even like looking at it through the lens of the child towards the parent,

but also can we look at it through the lens of the parent to ourselves as still a child?

Like these frozen pieces,

like I got a four year old in me still.

I got an 8 year old in me still these pieces that aren't fully healed and integrated in me are in a real way stuck in that state of development.

And so like for for there to be more compassion.

OK,

So one thing actually we're going to go on another track because of what you just said,

this

idea of using the adult mind to try to reconcile,

you know,

early traumatic experiences,

I think is is just.

There's so many pitfalls.

There's so many opportunities to misuse information and knowledge.

Can you speak to that?

Like,

you know,

especially now,

like we're in the age of information.

No one is lacking the ability to even now with AI,

like,

OK,

well,

this is what's going on for me.

What's

the deal?

How

do we get past trying to use our adult mind to make peace with things that the adult mind just not equipped to do?

Yeah,

well,

So what I hear in that,

and you can correct me if I'm wrong,

but it it,

it sounds like you're talking about the ego.

And

the ego is the survival based part of our consciousness,

right.

Like the ego.

So you imagine when you're a little kid,

you know,

you're just born into this world,

you're very tiny,

the world's very big.

And you look around and it's cold and it's bright,

and there are loud noises,

and you're completely helpless,

like you can't do anything.

And so like,

fear comes with that,

right?

Like there's an experience that you just like,

where am I?

What's happening,

right?

And so in the moment you experience fear,

a part of your consciousness is born that's like,

I'm going to protect you.

And

that's the ego.

And

So what

happens is the ego,

like most of our lives,

the ego has been this protective part of our consciousness that has been trying to control situations,

that has been trying to manipulate situations to work out in our favor,

that has been trying to see how everything's going to work out before it even happens.

And it's like,

I'm not even going to get started unless I know it's going to work out in my favor.

And like,

the ego is constantly afraid and it's constantly trying to,

like,

anticipate and control situations to mitigate its fear.

And most of us have been like completely dominated by our egos because we've never been taught to use any other faculty,

right?

Like the whole,

the whole world is run on ego.

Like businesses are run on ego.

Like,

so we just,

we look,

we take what's going on around us and we just adapt to it,

right?

So we adapt to our own egos because of that.

The

problem is that your ego can't really heal you.

And

so when like we want our ego to be in charge of our healing and like

we want to,

there's

a sense that like we want to be consciously in control of our healing.

And

you actually the

being consciously in control of things is what limits your healing,

right?

So there's this,

there's this huge paradox where you actually kind of have to put the ego aside and allow the healing to happen.

And the more,

the more you try to take control of it with your ego,

the more you're going to slow it down and you're going to limit it.

So I know that might sound kind of ambiguous to the listeners.

So

if we take the example of what we were just talking about,

of like releasing the tension in your body,

right?

Like that's not something that you're thinking about and controlling.

It's something that you relaxed into and you allow it to happen,

right?

Like simply the act of bringing awareness to where the tension is,

focusing and breathing into it,

visualizing an expansion,

like just simply being present in that experience allows it to happen.

When I start going,

how

much did I do today?

Did I do enough?

When am I going to feel free?

You know,

why?

Why don't I've done it every day for a month?

Why don't I feel free yet?

Right?

Like that's what limits it.

And so we can't consciously control it.

We've got a,

to some degree surrender to the process and,

you know,

do the work,

but allow it to kind of unfold in its own time.

So is

that what you were getting at?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think the way you kind of articulated and connected dots there around the ego and how the ego would approach kind of working with the body,

I

think is relevant.

It's totally accurate to what I was talking about.

And you know,

when when you think about letting

go,

like you're talking about,

you don't like,

try to relax.

Try as hard as you can to relax.

Like,

no,

no,

that's that's not how relaxation works.

Force yourself to relax.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And,

and,

and what that requires,

what I see that requiring is a kind of trust in life.

And

I think that's a piece that that often is there underlying our,

our stuckness or a sense that that we can't heal our trauma is that we haven't yet come to terms with the necessity to trust in life and to relax into what life genuinely wants to do,

how life genuinely wants to move.

I think it's one of our magics as human beings.

We,

we somehow have this capacity to,

to get in there and do something other than what life naturally wants to do.

And I,

I think it's a double edged sword.

I think it,

it allows for new levels of,

of adaptation and creativity.

But mixed with that capacity,

that power is the ability to be something we're not and to,

and to get in the way of,

of how life wants to move in a way that not only perpetuates,

but can even deepen and,

and worsen the impacts of trauma.

So I don't know if you want to get into that,

but I have a kind of a place I want to go,

but I want to give you a moment in case you want to kind of respond.

Well,

I,

I,

I think you said a lot of it right there.

And I,

I,

I love what you just said is that,

yeah,

it's like when we,

when

we lean on that too heavily,

right?

And I think there is a space for it.

You know,

the ego is not bad,

but when we lean on that too heavily,

it

actually it ingrains the trauma even deeper,

right?

Because the ego is always going to lean on the shame.

It's always going to lean on there's something wrong with me.

It's always going to lean on I'm not enough.

Because that's how it protects you,

right?

The ego says,

no,

no,

no,

you're not enough for that experience.

Don't do it.

It's going to hurt.

And that's how the ego keeps you safe.

And so there

is a necessity to challenge our own ego and say,

I think I can handle it.

And

then you're terrified.

And then you're like,

Oh my God,

how am I ever going to get through this?

But when you do,

you're no longer the same person anymore.

And going back to what we were saying about identity,

that in and of itself will shift your identity.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And one way I like to look at it is like the ego is really a servant.

It's a vehicle and a servant and we get to choose what it's in service to.

The

ego can be in service to our own knowing,

our own love,

our own connection and alignment with life itself,

or we can make the ego in service to like narrow self-interest or a preferred experience in any given moment.

And then ego just kind of does what we tell it to.

There's

more nuance and and sort of depth in there.

But,

but I think I want to kind of stay there because where I want to go is I coached sport for a number of years.

And when you're training coaches,

at least in Canada,

I assume it's the same in the States.

Where

are you based in

New Jersey,

NJ?

Yeah,

my mom's from Brooklyn.

I think I may have mentioned that.

OK Yeah,

yeah.

So in

coach training there's theory,

technical and practical sort of levels of coaching.

And so theory obviously is just like,

you know,

conceptual and,

and best practices and all that kind of stuff.

And then the technical is like,

how do you actually implement skill development and athlete development in training sessions and all that?

And then there's the practical,

like you need to get out there and do it.

And,

and so that practical piece to me,

especially now,

I think there's just so many places to get certifications and universities and all of that.

And and I wonder with just like thousands and thousands of new coaches pouring into the the space everyday,

how

many of them have the requisite,

you know,

practicals to

to be really profoundly effective at what they do?

So I'm curious for you,

I know you've done some training.

I know you have quite a bit of experience,

whether it's as a coach,

but also just you and your life,

where are the practical areas of learning and growth that you feel like allow

you to have better relationships to yourself,

but also that allow you to support other people in that journey?

Yeah,

definitely.

And I mean,

I,

I truly believe that like life is the best teacher.

Like we

should only be in a classroom long enough to get the courage to go out there and try it.

Like really,

that's because you're going to learn so much more trying it than you will reading about it,

right?

So.

And

that's actually my approach with my clients.

So this

just kind of came intuitively to me and I've done it ever since I started coaching is like,

I'm not interested in sitting in a coaching session and talking about how

you're going to do it,

right?

Like I'm more interested in sitting in a coaching session and talking about how you did it and

what worked and what didn't work and what you want to do better next time,

right?

Like that,

That is such a more powerful conversation than just theorizing about,

well,

maybe we could try it this way or maybe we could try it that way because even in the moment you do it,

you're not going to do it the way you theorized about.

You're going to do it the best you can in that moment and it's going to be a mess because you've never done it before.

The

best thing to do is to get practicing.

I

want to share just a little story because this actually,

I have my inspired love group on Tuesday nights and this came up for someone in there.

And so we

were,

this is last night we were talking about this.

She

was one of the students.

She was saying that she's been dating this guy for a while.

Amazing relationship,

like best relationship she's ever had in her life.

Things are really moving along and,

and she's been feeling like she wants to say I love you,

but

she hasn't said it yet.

And she's been like trying to say it,

but she can't get the courage to say it.

And we've

been talking about it and she's like,

you know,

I've,

I have never been the first one to say it ever in my whole life.

Like I've never been the first one to say it.

And we

were talking about it last night.

And what she shared with me was that her when she was a child,

she

used to say,

I love you to her father all the time.

And he would never say it back.

And

so,

you know,

imagine a little girl,

I love you,

I love you,

I love you.

And her father just never said it back.

And I asked her,

what did it feel like,

you know,

when your father wouldn't say it back?

And we talked about a little bit,

but what it came down to is what you said shame,

right?

Like I,

I feel ashamed like I,

I love,

I'm expressing my love.

And I'm just experiencing this constant rejection from my father and.

So

what we actually talked about last night was that her

ability to say it to this person now and like,

and look,

this is like terrifying for her,

right?

Like she's up against it.

We're working through one of her greatest fears right now.

And

and this is what I said is like when you can say it to him,

you

have the opportunity to really heal all those years of like what happened with your father,

right?

And then I said to her,

and

she said this,

she's like,

even if he doesn't say it back,

like it's actually OK.

Like if if he were to say to me,

like,

I really like you too,

but I just don't know how I feel right now or I just don't think I'm ready to say that yet.

She's like,

she's like,

that would actually be OK,

right?

And,

and,

and she's like,

she's like,

I'm just living with this irrational fear from my childhood.

Like it,

it doesn't mean anything about what's happening in my life right now.

And,

and what I said to her was like,

the moment you take that step and

you're just like,

I can handle this.

Cause the ego's like,

you can't handle it,

right?

The ego's like,

don't do it.

You're gonna get crushed,

you're gonna get destroyed.

You can't handle that.

The moment she's like,

no,

you know what?

I can't handle it.

If he says it back,

I can handle it.

If he doesn't say it back,

I can handle it like it's OK,

I can handle this.

And the moment she steps into that and takes that action,

she has actually healed all that stuff because that stuff is no longer running her life and making her decisions for her anymore.

And

so I think that is really the biggest way that healing happens is when we're willing to face that painful part.

And you know,

we,

we play this game where we think it's happening outside of us,

but it's not everything's happening inside,

right?

And so when we can,

when we can confront that place in ourselves that terrified us,

and we can face it with courage and like we can stand our ground and just like whatever happens,

like I can face this,

I can go through it.

That's when you're healed.

Yeah,

I love that.

You know,

I,

I think the

healing of the system,

there's,

there's a cyclical returning to the dynamic that needs to happen.

But I think when

there's when there's been a block and an unwillingness to cross a threshold,

something profound and meaningful shifts about that pattern once we realize what it is and we act out what we now know about,

you know,

our truth.

To me,

it's really about being in full expression.

You know,

at a young age,

most of us that are carrying shame had a,

a moment or a time where we decided,

Oh,

I'm not going to fully express myself anymore.

It's a form of self abandonment.

It's a form of like,

Oh,

my,

myself worth and my truth don't belong here or aren't welcome here or I'm not worthy enough to express these things here.

And when we realized that nothing out there has to change for me to begin doing that again,

that's like turning a corner around the traumas we haven't.

And I actually really,

you probably know who Gaber Mate is.

Yeah.

So he,

you know,

he had a few years ago,

he was speaking about trauma in terms of not what happens to us,

but what happens inside of us as a result of what happens to us.

And I like that,

but that was incomplete to me.

And then actually now I hear him,

he's really involved in psychedelic work around people in,

in healing trauma right now.

And what he's saying now is what trauma really is,

is disconnection.

That

in spite of the things that can result from a traumatic experience that need time to process and heal,

the real core of trauma that is sort of static

or like remains in US over time is a sense and an orientation of disconnection.

And that healing is all about reconnecting,

not

after the pain or not,

you know,

if we,

if we can get past the pain in

the midst of the pain,

if we can reconnect in the midst of the pain,

we begin to reorganize the,

the tangled mess of,

of attachment wounds and,

and trauma.

And so maybe we can kind of bring it back because I think we've been talking about kind of like the nature of the ego and then how these things can happen and coaching,

which is beautiful.

Can

we bring it into like that person out there that that feels lonely,

that still is carrying their shame?

They've done some work,

they've seen some results,

but it's still like,

I

don't love myself yet.

I don't feel love coming from others in the way that I really desire.

What

can they do?

And and there was a piece we were talking about before we got on around like dating apps and like,

does this modern environment make it even harder for us?

So it's a two-part question,

like what does that person do to make things better?

And how do they navigate the the kind of technology space that may actually make it harder for authentic connection and harder for us to like find our authentic self?

Yeah,

Yeah.

So

I

really think the first thing that person needs to do is to start letting it be OK to be who they are and where they are and just every aspect of their life as it is right now.

To just start allowing that to be OK because

we've spent our whole lives looking out at our looking at ourselves,

the world around us and going,

hey,

this isn't OK.

I need more of this.

I need more,

you know,

like I'm not enough yet.

Once I get this,

I'll be OK.

Once I get that,

I'll be OK.

And

so,

and

that is just a perpetuation of shame,

right?

That that is a conversation of shame where things are not OK because I'm not OK,

right?

And the more I feel I'm not OK,

the more I think things are not OK.

And that's all my shame and a reflection of my shame.

And

so if,

if we can just start by like,

it's all OK.

Like it's OK to be who you are.

It's OK to be where you are.

It's OK to feel the way you feel.

It's OK to think the things you think.

It's OK to have been through whatever you've been through.

Like just stop the judgement and the resistance to yourself and your life,

right?

Like,

like that's the first step.

And that that's a big step,

right?

Because like,

even even just doing that and like coming back to that a million times a day,

like,

oh,

there I am saying it's not OK again,

right?

Like there's

a lot of work in just that.

And just like letting me be who I am,

letting my life be as it is.

And

then that's kind of the jumping off point.

The

more you can step into that.

I'd

say the next step is really to like start to explore your passion.

And

when I say passion,

I mean there are a lot of,

there are a lot of different words we could use for that.

We could use excitement,

inspiration,

Lovejoy.

But it's like,

just

like when you imagine the the greatest expression of your life,

what

does that look like?

Like just,

I mean,

if,

if you were to create a vision board or just start writing things down on a sheet of paper,

like,

you know,

what kind of place are you in?

What kind of people are you around?

What kind of things are you doing?

How do you spend your day?

Right?

Like just you just start to paint a picture of the kind of life you want to live,

the kind of person you want to be,

the kind of friends you want to have,

the kind of communities you want to be a part of,

the kinds of activities you want to be involved in.

And you start and

it,

it,

it needs to happen in baby steps because you can't do a complete overhaul on your life overnight.

But you start taking baby steps towards your passion,

right?

You start taking baby steps towards the things that light you up,

that make you feel good,

that make you feel like life has purpose and meaning and is beautiful and is worth living.

And

so I

think for that person,

those

two things would be what I would work with them around before anything else.

Because

especially

like that person probably

also has a really limiting conversation around love and dating and relationships.

Because that person has probably also been using dating

and relationships as a way to mitigate the unfulfillment they feel in their life,

right?

So I'm not happy in my life.

I don't love myself.

I don't feel good about myself.

What do I do?

I go out and I try to get someone to love me.

I try to get someone to pay attention to me.

I try to get someone to like me and think about me and want me.

And when I get that,

that makes me feel better about the fact that my life is ultimately unfulfilling.

And

so for that person,

I

would say they probably want to take a break from dating for a little while and actually work on loving themselves and loving the life they're living.

And then it doesn't have to be a complete overhaul,

but at least feel like you've taken some ground in that respect so that when you go back to dating,

you'll be doing it from a whole new perspective.

Yeah.

I mean,

it's such an interesting.

It seems like a contradiction,

I think,

when you start to look at it from a certain perspective or in terms of,

OK,

so I'm supposed to accept myself as I am and I'm supposed to improve myself and be a kind of person that I feel good about being so that someone else would want to be with me.

Can you kind of square that circle or like,

how do we make sense of like,

because I think I agree.

I think we need both the idea that I,

you know,

I'm a slob and I don't clean up after myself and I've been unemployed for a year and I just treat people like garbage and hey,

why doesn't anyone love me?

It's like,

wait a second,

there's some math that we need to do there.

So how do how do we include those two or how do we integrate those two?

So,

yeah,

so I can fully accept myself,

but I'm not,

I'm not in a parking spot.

I am genuinely leaning into my edges of growing as a human being and becoming someone I feel good about being simultaneously

accepting where I am right now.

How does that work?

Yeah,

it,

it is a paradox.

And I agree.

It's like,

yeah,

love who you are and try to become someone else now.

But but the The thing is,

and

I think this is what resolves the paradox is it's not about becoming someone else.

It's about becoming more of yourself,

Right.

So,

and I,

I think the way we resolve this is by just acknowledging that we are all a work in progress.

Like that person,

there's a,

there's an old saying that like every master was once a disaster,

right?

Like every person you look at and go like,

oh,

they're amazing.

Like,

how could I ever be like them?

Like you got to know that at one point they felt like you.

And then honestly,

they probably still have days where they wake up and feel like that,

right?

So it,

it's like we are all a work in progress.

And so when you really realize that,

when you realize that nobody's a finished product,

you know,

even,

you know,

you,

you look at the top person in the world and there's somebody that they look up to and feel small next to,

right?

So when you realize that like,

look,

we're all on this journey and everyone's at different places on the journey,

but you can't be anywhere other than where you are.

And

rather than arguing with where you are,

which is just completely useless,

you can accept where you are and at the same time work to improve where you are.

Not because you need to be different than who you are,

but just because there's more,

there's untapped potential that hasn't been brought forward yet.

And why

wouldn't you want to do that?

What else are you going to do in this life?

You know,

like,

I mean,

I really think what this life is about,

if there's one thing that it's about,

is about bringing everything that's inside of us out,

right?

Like finding how to do that,

finding ways to do that.

And that is the journey of a lifetime.

So

does that recall the paradox?

Well,

yeah,

I think it does for me.

I just think life happens in

a very innate way.

Like life knows what it's doing.

Like,

just walk into nature.

Just go,

if you have a patch or expansive space of nature nearby,

like go and get quiet and like see what's going on there.

And,

and like,

there's this beautiful quote.

It's like,

look,

look at nature.

It's

never in a hurry,

yet everything gets done something like that.

And I love that.

I love that sense of like,

I don't have to push myself in

this forceful way,

but something in me wants to come forward.

Something in me wants to evolve and grow and blossom to to kind of do the use the nature analogy and and that there's also something that inspires us about others who are earnestly on that path.

And so if we're thinking about like,

oh,

I want to invite someone into my life that I feel exceptionable about being with,

like I love that I'm with them.

I love that they've chosen me.

I feel passionate and excited to be with them.

For

that to take place.

They're going to be someone who's on that kind of journey.

And it makes no sense that you would want to choose them and that they wouldn't want to choose someone who's actually participating in the same kind of journey with them.

So there's a kind of innate compatibility piece that I,

I hear you speaking about when we try to integrate those pieces of like ultimately,

like holistic self acceptance,

like yes,

of course,

like how do we,

how do we come into our fullness if we're constantly saying what's wrong with ourselves?

Like it just can't happen.

But that acceptance of ourselves as we are is a like you just kind of mentions like it's a,

it's a jumping off place.

That's the start.

Once

we're good with what is,

we can.

I often talk about what's going on right now is the raw material of your life.

The only way to create the masterpiece is to use what's actually here.

So if we can't come into right relationship with the actual,

the real material of the present moment,

then essentially we're building with illusion where we're building with projection.

We can't make a masterpiece.

I'd like that won't be what happens.

But if I come into real relationship with the present moment and I really start to work with that,

that's where the masterpiece comes from.

So,

you know,

you probably notice I like metaphors,

but you know,

I hopefully that's sort of landing for people around how our our our genuine self acceptance is not a parking space.

It's not somewhere that we just lay down and then become a passive,

you know,

a leaf being blown through the wind.

But like this is a place that we start so we can see ourselves more honestly and accurately.

We can see where our dark places are.

We can see where our shortcomings are and we can start to give sincere energy and effort to cleaning up the messes that are there and to develop those pieces of us that that are calling us to develop them.

I believe we're,

like you mentioned,

like we're born to grow and evolve.

That's it's part of what our our core reason for being is,

and it's not separate from our pursuit of romantic connection.

Which

brings me to the piece that I wanted to get into.

I believe you talked about the dragon earlier in the conversation.

I love Joseph Campbell and the

meta myth of the hero's journey,

which I think a lot of people would be familiar with.

And

I do believe wherever

we haven't fully woken up to our unconscious,

those are our dark caves.

Those are the places in us that feel most terrifying,

that feel most uncertain,

and

we're meant to enter those caves.

So to get a bit more personal,

like can you identify a dark night of the soul or,

or a time when you had to go to a dark place?

What did you learn there?

And then what did you bring back?

Yeah,

Great question.

And it

may surprise some of the listeners actually.

So first thing that comes to mind when you say that is when

I went to jail.

So maybe

even a surprise for you.

I don't know if you know this part of my story,

but so I don't,

I'm totally curious.

So

from 18 to 20,

I was in jail two

years.

And just to give people a little background on that.

So I,

I come from a history of trauma.

My dad was an alcoholic narcissist,

grew up in a super abusive household.

Drugs and alcohol were available everywhere.

And

anyway,

Long story short is when I was 18 years old,

I was heavily

addicted to drugs.

I mean,

it,

it was just,

it was bad where my life was,

you know,

like living on the street,

horrible situations,

horrible people,

you

get the idea.

You get the kind of situation.

And Long story short is there was a bad drug deal.

I was arrested and ended up spending about two years in jail.

And

while I I think that ultimately saved my life,

it was the beginning of like turning things around for me.

Something

really,

something really magical happened And I'll there's one night in particular.

I've shared the story a few times.

I'll never forget this.

And I used to when I was in jail,

I would stay up all night a lot because I just.

The daytime environment wasn't really my cup of tea,

you know,

So I just stay up all night when it was quiet and

was,

it was one of my nights when I was in my room and I was up all night.

And

I just remember having this feeling in my soul and I wrote it down in my journal.

I,

I said,

I

am so full of love.

It's like,

it's like I could feel like every cell of my body was filled with love and

I just wanted to share it.

And,

you

know,

I,

I think what

happened there and why that happened was because I had lost everything,

right?

Like,

I mean,

I had in my teenage years,

I,

I sold a good amount of drugs.

I had some popularity.

I was kind of the man in my circle.

And you know,

I had lots of money and lots of friends and I had a social life and this whole world I lived in,

all of that was taken away.

All

my money was gone,

all my material possessions,

the house I lived in,

like literally every single thing was gone.

When when I got out of jail,

one of my friends had a little box.

It was about this big that had like my personal belongings in it and like,

and it was like,

I mean,

it was like a journal.

I don't even know what was in there.

It was like a journal and AT shirt like,

but so

I lost everything,

right.

And

what

was really profound about that was when every external metric of my identity was taken away.

And and of course,

in the beginning,

I just felt like completely

worthless,

completely useless.

My life is garbage.

But you know,

this may be a year in that I was having this experience.

And it was like when everything else was taken away,

what's left,

And

that's what I came up with is love is what's left.

And

what do I still have to give is that's love.

And I made a promise that night and at the time I was in there,

like I didn't know how long I was going to be there.

They were telling me I was facing 10 years.

Like I didn't know how it was going to workout.

But I said a prayer that night and I said that if

I get out of here,

however I get out of here,

whatever miracle needs to happen for me to get out of here,

miracles did happen for me to get out of there.

I

said if I get a second chance,

I promise I will not waste it.

And

I think that was the start of me being where I am now.

I

think when we go into those dark nights of the soul,

what we're really facing is like,

who am I,

Ramana Maharshi?

I don't know if you know Ramana Maharshi is,

but I,

I think,

I think it was him who said,

like,

if you want to reach enlightenment,

the only question you have to ask is who am I,

right.

And I think that's what those dark nights of the soul really drive us into is who am I when when all the external fluff and all the boosting up my ego and all of that's gone,

what's left?

And I think when we really go to that place and we really face that,

we

always come out greater than we went.

Yeah.

I mean,

what an amazing story.

Thank you for sharing that.

I just really have appreciation for it.

What

came to me,

part of what you were saying was

just how much more trust and appreciation I have for people that have been to the dark places and come back versus someone who's just a nice person.

Like,

yeah,

you've had a nice life and you've done some nice things and you're just,

you're just a good,

you know,

salt of the earth.

Like,

that's

great.

And I appreciate those people.