Lorne Kelton asked AI to find research supporting an argument. It returned what seemed like a cited study. When he checked it, the study and researcher didn’t exist.

That experience opens a conversation about the responsibility speakers carry when they use evidence on stage. Lorne and John discuss why confidence can be mistaken for competence, how “fake it till you make it” advice can lead speakers astray, and what critical thinking looks like when a client wants to put it into practice.

They also disagree, or at least place different bets, on what AI means for professional speaking. Lorne sees pressure on familiar keynote topics as AI gets better at producing plausible content. John argues that an audience’s relationship with a live speaker still matters. Both questions are worth asking: how strong is the thinking behind your talk, and what happens in the room because you are there?

The conversation also covers Lorne’s use of AI during preparation, his approach to choosing stories, and the less glamorous reality of earning a living as a speaker.

In this episode:

• How an invented citation made it through an AI research request
• Why confidence and competence need separating
• How Lorne turns a critical thinking idea into a corporate workshop
• What AI can help a speaker do, and what the speaker must check
• Why a speaking business may need more than keynote fees

Connect with Lorne to find out more: https://www.thinkshift.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lornekelton/

Chapters:

00:00 AI Citation Hallucinations

01:14 Confidence vs Competence

03:48 AI as Speaking Partner

05:04 Generic Topics at Risk

07:11 Training AI to Your Voice

10:55 Fact-Checking and IP Rights

13:44 Will AI Replace Speakers

20:19 Critical Thinking Origin Story

22:59 Workshop Framework and Triggers

25:29 Biases and Motivation Industry

27:41 Evidence and Truth Seeking

30:14 Future Opportunities for Speakers

32:37 Owning Your Viewpoint

32:54 Expertise vs Relevance

34:32 Celebrity and Internal Competition

37:07 Making Speaking Pay

38:43 The Business of Speaking

41:32 Why Speakers Get Booked

43:35 Storytelling Over Slides

50:42 Finding Stories and Testing

53:49 Encouragement and Authenticity

55:27 Where to Connect

56:23 Host Reflection on AI

57:47 Final Sendoff

FAQ

What is the difference between confidence and competence, according to Lorne Kelton?

Competence is built through real experience and expertise. Confidence can be performed without either. Kelton argues that speakers, and especially newer ones, get told to fake confidence before they've built competence, which he says derails careers rather than accelerating them.

Why does Lorne Kelton think certain keynote topics are at risk from AI?

Kelton names leadership, productivity, change management and resilience as topics where AI can already generate passable content, which he expects will lead booking committees to question paying five figures for a human speaker on those subjects specifically.

How does Lorne Kelton recommend speakers use AI without losing their own voice?

Kelton feeds AI his own books, articles, emails and video transcripts so it can act as a sceptical research partner rather than a writer. He treats the deep, time-consuming version of this process as the only one that produces anything close to authentic output.

What happened when Lorne Kelton asked AI to find supporting research for an argument?

The AI returned a fully formed citation for a study that turned out not to exist, attributed to a researcher who also doesn't exist. Kelton now treats this as a standing warning to verify any AI-sourced research before using it on stage.

What is Lorne Kelton's process for teaching critical thinking to corporate clients?

Kelton works backwards from a specific trigger incident, then moves the person through reflection, surfacing their assumptions and biases, reframing the situation, and finally writing a concrete plan for how they'll respond differently next time.

What percentage of Lorne Kelton's speaker association members make a full-time living from keynoting alone?

Fewer than 13%, based on an internal survey his association conducted. The majority earn keynote fees as one component of a broader income that includes facilitation, training, MC work and consulting.

How does Lorne Kelton choose which stories to use in a talk?

He starts from the client's desired outcome and works backwards to find a personal experience, often a failure, that speaks to it directly. He then tests the story with a small trusted group before using it on stage.

What advice does Lorne Kelton give speakers who feel threatened by the current market?

Be authentically yourself rather than copying another speaker's style or delivery. He calls this the fail-safe way to get booked and rebooked, and warns against speakers who present themselves as facsimiles of someone else.

Connect with John:

• Find out more about the Known, Booked & Paid Blueprint
• Subscribe to the Serious About Speaking newsletter on LinkedIn
• Find me on Insta
• Find me on TikTok
• Find me on Threads

Discover the bottlenecks in your speaking business with the Applaude Vs Invoice Quiz

For speaking/podcast enquiries or to connect with me directly, you can email [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn

You can find all our clips, episodes and more on the Present Influence YouTube channel

If you know a speaker who would enjoy this show, let them know. Thanks for listening.

Mentioned in this episode:

KBPB final week offer

There's still time to grab one of the last few spaces left in the Known, Booked & Paid October founding cohort. Visit https://presentinfluence.com/kbpb for more information, or shoot me a DM on LinkedIn.

Lorne Kelton asked AI for research to support a point that he

2

was making, and it gave him a study

and a citation and a researcher.

3

When he checked, they didn't exist.

4

Now, that's a nasty surprise at your desk.

5

From a stage, that could

cost you your credibility.

6

Lorne is a speaker and critical thinking

specialist, and today we talk about the

7

evidence behind our talks, the gap between

confidence and competence, and what AI

8

might change about the speaking business.

9

We also get into something that he

and I maybe don't entirely agree

10

on, whether professional speakers

should be worried about their future.

11

Welcome to Professional Speaking, the show

for people who are serious about speaking

12

and becoming known, booked, and paid.

13

My name's John Ball, professional

speaking coach, keynote speaker,

14

stand-up comedian, and sci-fi nerd.

15

I'm here as your guide on the journey

to a successful speaking career

16

Well, welcome to the show, Lorne Kelton.

17

Lorne Kelton: Thank you.

18

It says, treat to be here, John.

19

John: Is, is it a light to have you, I've

been looking forward to our conversation

20

for a while now, and I think our listener

is gonna get some real treats, maybe some

21

unexpected elements here as well today.

22

Some things that we might not have

discussed so much on the show before,

23

but let's kick things off with a question

that I often ask my guests at the start

24

about whether there's a position or a

concept that you have or you teach that

25

perhaps is a little different or even

contrarian to what you hear others in

26

the industry teaching as common practise.

27

Lorne Kelton: Oh, there's

a long list, John.

28

But, uh, to, to be succinct, the one

thing that I've found myself focusing on

29

over the last several years is debunking

myths around concepts like fake it till

30

you make it, for example, confusing

and, and deconstructing the difference

31

between competence and confidence and how

those often get in the way, especially

32

with, let's say, newer speakers or even

speakers who are established, uh, in

33

my world, and I don't speak to speakers

per se, but I listen in and I attend a

34

lot of conferences and it's one of the

bugaboos that I keep hearing again and

35

again and again, and it's poor advice and

it can derail careers very, very quickly.

36

John: And it happens all the time.

37

You know, I probably entered into the

speaking world through the personal

38

development industry and so I had to

wade through a lot of that to figure

39

things out and, and I would say pretty

much came out the other side because

40

even though I, there are still some

elements of that that I like and

41

some of it that, some of it's good.

42

Most of it's not.

43

Most of it is like a lot.

44

I was doing a standup comedy set the

other week and, and it was really all

45

about personal development and the key

line through it all, I think relates to

46

what you're saying of like, bullshit and

confidence is a very deadly combination.

47

Probably one of the deadliest

combinations in the world.

48

Lorne Kelton: It is, especially,

especially in the age of ai.

49

And perhaps we can get into the AI

debate and its role or its potential

50

place in the field of professional

speaking, if that comes up.

51

But the BS detectors, which

have always been acute in most

52

audiences is hyperacute now.

53

And the need for what I call hyper

authenticity has never been, in my

54

estimation anyway, more important.

55

and when you couple that with

another thing I like to call tangible

56

empathy, then, then you really

get into the vulnerability pieces.

57

And I know those are, that's a real

mishmash there, but when you combine

58

those things, the hyper authenticity

with empathy and give yourself permission

59

to be vulnerable, that's something that

ai, and I know I'm digressing there, but

60

that's an area where AI really doesn't

stand a chance against, those of us

61

that are trying to remain authentic.

62

John: Yeah, look, I mean, rather than

come back to that later, I'm happy for us

63

to, to take that now and we'll get more

into your talks and your talk topics and

64

your training stuff in a little while.

65

But, the AI conversation is, is one that's

very present for all of us at the moment.

66

Many of us are working with

it, many people are hating it

67

and want nothing to do with it.

68

Some people are over relying

on it, and there's all sorts of

69

weird and crazy stuff going on.

70

Who knows where it's really

all going to end up for us.

71

But I do, you know, I come across like, I

have clients sometimes who as, uh, working

72

on their keynotes with them, and you can

kind of see that when they've done the

73

whole thing through an AI tool and say,

all right, we need to go back and do this

74

again without the ai because we have this

situation where I find that AI is bringing

75

back a lot of generic things for people

rather than specific ideas or identities.

76

It's bringing back what it sees

most often, which is commonalities,

77

generalities, and, and the stuff it

probably sees as more, right, because

78

it sees it more often, but it's not

giving specificity, it's not giving

79

points of view, it's not giving anything

all that challenging in those respects.

80

Does this relate to what you're saying?

81

Lorne Kelton: It does.

82

And where I'm most fearful for

those who are not embracing, or

83

those who are embracing it, but

embracing it as a substitute

84

rather than as a research partner.

85

there's a core middle of topics that

I believe are gonna be quickly made

86

redundant, which, which would be,

and I'm, I'm not trying to put fear

87

into anybody, but if you speak on,

for example, topics like, leadership,

88

productivity, change management, uh,

resilience, those kind of topics,

89

you know, companies, organisations,

booking agencies are gonna take a hard

90

look at that and say, well, hold on.

91

Do I need to spend five, 10,

$15,000 plus airfare in a

92

hotel for those kind of topics?

93

Well, perhaps, perhaps if it's a

celebrity, perhaps if it's somebody

94

extremely well established, yes.

95

But we're not in that top half of 1%.

96

And so if those are your topics, if

those are your bread and butter topics,

97

I would strongly suggest that, uh,

people look at using AI now more as a, a

98

sparring partner, a tool to question and

challenge what you're doing and to get

99

really, really good at writing prompts.

100

And we've all heard this prompt writing,

prompt writing, there's people even

101

doing seminars on prompt writing now.

102

But the idea, the idea with

prompt writing, in my opinion,

103

this is just my opinion, is to

feed it information about you.

104

Let it read everything

that you've ever written.

105

So if you've written a book or

articles or essays or white papers,

106

feed that into Claude well into your

preferred tool and have it read it,

107

then have it read your emails, and

then have it read, for example, and

108

have it view a couple of your videos.

109

If you, if you have those, then it, in

my experience, it can truly become a

110

partner because it can be the sceptic

on the other side that is warning you.

111

And slowly but surely, John, I find over

time that it starts to get a lot more

112

granular and those worries we have about

it tend to fall away, at least for now.

113

Does that make sense?

114

John: No, it really does.

115

and I very much treat it the same way.

116

I look at it as a research partner

and, and I have been doing what you

117

say as well, of having had that advice

from other people of taking the time

118

to train the AI to really understand

my, me and my voice and what I'm

119

about, so it can directly help me.

120

But also having to programme it,

instruct it to not just blow smoke

121

and to actually give me some pushback.

122

Give me some challenge rather than

just say, oh, that's amazing, or,

123

what a brilliant idea you are.

124

A fact, you are a genius.

125

You know, I don't, I even hate that.

126

I don't like it for people.

127

I certainly don't like it from an ai,

but it does actually sometimes help me

128

spot some things I may have missed or

put some things in a particular way.

129

But I do find that it has particular

ways that you see these posts, even

130

on LinkedIn and stuff, and you can see

that they've been run through AI because

131

they nearly all follow the same kind of

structure and the same kind of patterns.

132

And most people don't naturally speak or

put stuff together in those sorts of ways.

133

They are very optimised

ways of, of doing it.

134

And even if you have, or your

content in there, I think is, it

135

starts to look like it's been set

out in a way that an AI has done it.

136

People are automatically assuming

you didn't fully create that.

137

You, this is, this isn't all your work.

138

And that is what I see being a challenge

for speakers now as well, because I think

139

I had Beth, Beth Sherman on the show not

long ago talking about frameworks and,

140

and saying like, don't put your frameworks

into AI because it's gonna spit out a

141

framework that doesn't even make sense

just to try and get you a particular

142

word or something like that, rather than

having a real framework that's for you.

143

These are the tells, these are

the things that say, you didn't

144

come up with this yourself.

145

This isn't authentic.

146

and I think those are the things that,

you know, that and the, I, I guess even

147

just lived experience and stories and

the related areas to the speaking areas

148

that you're talking about are perhaps

still not so much under threat, but

149

definitely worth looking at and examining.

150

Lorne Kelton: You brought up a

couple of really interesting points.

151

recently I was using it, I guess

I'm trying to morph the use of

152

ai, at least in our practise, more

towards the agentic side, having it

153

actually execute tasks on our behalf.

154

And we're experimenting right now, for

example, with emails and having it read

155

through the emails and then prompt us with

the ones that are urgent and even put in

156

language based on what it's studied about.

157

And we'll go back and when I

say we, myself and my business

158

partner, we'll we'll go back in

and we'll say, well, hold on there.

159

You use this tone of voice.

160

That's not an, an iteration we use, please

listen to, it's a lot of work, John.

161

hours and hours and hours.

162

And I don't think very many people

are putting from what I'm seeing

163

anyway, that much time into it.

164

It's still more of a chat box,

experiment for them, the quick,

165

the quick return answers.

166

Whereas I think if you do the deep

dives, you'll get a little bit closer

167

to that quote unquote authenticity.

168

Then you brought up the,

the word storytelling and

169

we could talk hours on that.

170

Hopefully we'll get to storytelling

and its relevance because I do believe

171

that when it comes to the storytelling

part of the speaking business, that

172

is something that AI is going to have

tremendous difficulty replicating,

173

especially if it's a true story.

174

Um, and the, and, and for the reasons

you've indicated it, it's, it's language

175

model is based on what it's been fed.

176

And it always says at the bottom of

all the models, right, always double

177

check because so-and-so makes mistakes.

178

Chat PT makes mistakes.

179

Jim and I makes mistakes.

180

Pardon?

181

Well, it does.

182

And recently, Jo, quick story.

183

Recently I was asking it to provide

any research studies that would back

184

up an argument I was trying to make

in the critical thinking sphere.

185

And it spit back a study that I

found fascinating only to find out

186

that that study doesn't even exist.

187

It fabricated a study.

188

I maybe you've heard

about this kind of respo.

189

I thought it would just give

wrong answers sometimes.

190

No, it's quoting people that don't

exist for studies that don't exist.

191

So another caveat for folks double check.

192

John: it is the thing of we, we tend

to think it's just get, it is just

193

checking out data and information

and that's actually not the case.

194

We do have these AI hallucinations around

actually becoming more common and we

195

even hear now about legal cases where

lawyers have drawn up, um, drawn up

196

their talks and, and their presentations,

citing cases that don't exist and,

197

and have it been having been found out

for having had AI put together their

198

whole briefing for the court and yeah.

199

Crazy stuff.

200

So definitely there, there are

things to pay attention to with.

201

Lorne Kelton: And, what something you said

just triggered another point for people to

202

be aware of, which I don't think many are.

203

And that is what, what is the

intellectual property rights to the

204

speaker when they've generated content?

205

And we, we don't have to go

into deep discussion on this.

206

I'm certainly not a, a legal,

uh, professional in that regard.

207

But I do know that increasingly if

it's original content and it's being

208

monetized, attribution, in many cases,

depending on the model has to be made.

209

So that has to be at your footnotes.

210

You know, this, this presentation

brought to you by Lauren Kelton

211

and Claude, you know, so.

212

John: It's, it's a,

it's a very tricky area.

213

I mean, you just think of that in the

world of art and design, for example,

214

that if you are, if you prompt Gemini,

whatever, to create an image is one of

215

the main image things, and it's doing,

so using a particular artist style or a

216

graphic designer style, they're probably

not getting any accreditation for that.

217

And they're certainly not getting

paid for the work that's been done,

218

that that has been based off who

actually really owns the wire stack.

219

So yeah, it's, it's a very tricky and

interesting area, but one of the reasons

220

why I do say to my clients, you are only

to use it, use AI to help you outline

221

your talk, but don't use it to write it

because it can't, it, it maybe at some

222

point in the future it might be able to

do that when they become even more trained

223

on us and, and, uh, you know, who, who

knows what the future holds with all that.

224

But it's, it's a fascinating,

it's a fascinating area.

225

I'm not as perhaps as worried about AI

damaging the speaking industry as some

226

others are, but it has, it has been

raised as a question on the show before.

227

Do, do you think, like, I even, I even

had a potential client ask me this one.

228

It's like, do, do you think AI is going

to, is going to damage or weaken the

229

speaker industry or maybe even replace it?

230

Lorne Kelton: Well, the short answer

is yes, but with some caveats.

231

I, I, as I mentioned earlier, there's,

and I named four, I think four areas,

232

and I could probably name a dozen more.

233

But I do think if you're in the business

of working backwards from the problem

234

your client is presenting to you, if

you work backwards from that and, and

235

ascertain what role AI can play in

helping you, um, deduce the best solutions

236

within your own formulas and your own

storytelling, I think that's fine.

237

Provided that you've

provided that attribution.

238

I remember one time, uh, John, this goes

back almost 24 years ago when I started

239

in, in this business and joined, um,

a speaking association here in Canada,

240

and I did one of those, and I don't

know if you have them in your neck of

241

the woods, but a lot of, almost like

a Toastmasters thing where they give

242

you an opportunity to do five minutes,

you know, um, uh, of, of almost like

243

speaking to the stars kind of thing.

244

And I remember doing my five minutes in

front of fellow speakers and afterwards I

245

was approached by someone who said, Lord,

I was a, I was pretty good, pretty good

246

inaugural talk, but you cited a study, but

you didn't back it up with any evidence.

247

Um, and I'd encourage you and

blah, blah, blah, when I like that.

248

And that was a real wake up call

about the credibility piece.

249

And that was early on.

250

And now we have the AI piece.

251

So one of the things I've started doing is

in any presentation I'm starting to put,

252

like, for example, like a QR code, whether

it's on the screen or if it's in a handout

253

that's been sent in advance, leading

directly to any studies that have been

254

cited by me in that, in that presentation.

255

And that sounds a little clinical, but I'm

finding that that's becoming a necessity.

256

But if you do work backwards as,

as I like to do from the problem

257

you're trying to solve, um, I find

it much more readily acceptable to

258

clients when they ask you and, and

it, and it's starting to happen more.

259

I think you can expect this to

happen in the industry is, you know,

260

what level of expertise are you

bringing that is not defined by ai.

261

So you need to be wary of that, you know.

262

John: yeah, yeah.

263

It is.

264

It's all, all, all others

worth thinking about.

265

I do still take the position of, I

think people, even though people can

266

go and get information from AI tools,

I don't think the human connection

267

piece is ever really gonna be replaced.

268

And just something, even the hap

uh, the whole idea or the, the whole

269

event of having somebody there to

talk on a particular topic, who's

270

able to connect and tell stories,

share experience, engage with the, the

271

people in the audience as well, is an

experience that AI can't replicate.

272

And, and who knows whether it might,

you know, with holograms and robotics

273

in the future, maybe, maybe to some

degree it will, but there's always

274

gonna be that element of human to human

connection that people value more.

275

You say that the AI don't have

their own stories, they don't

276

have their own lived experience.

277

They're only just pulling

from other people's.

278

And I think that's all those things

are still valuable to people, and it's

279

probably one of the reasons why I'm not

super worried about the speaking industry

280

at the moment, but I do see elements of

it that are gonna feel very challenged

281

and maybe even redundant, as you say,

from, from that particular aspect.

282

Lorne Kelton: I, I do think John, at

the very least many organisations,

283

and I think it's more on the corporate

side than the association side, and

284

I know the associations in North

America are a much bigger part

285

of, uh, the speaker's repertoire.

286

But nonetheless, on the corporate

side, you are going to see the

287

question being asked by the committees

responsible for booking speakers.

288

They're going to ask the question, can

this be done in an alternative fashion?

289

Can it be done, uh, with

an ai, um, uh, platform?

290

And if the answer is yes, they may still

not go with it, but it's going to work

291

its way up the decision making chain.

292

And when the stakeholder looks at that

and has the option, and that's something

293

that's new, that is something that's new.

294

And so that's why the topic specificness,

the more stories you can bring in,

295

the more that your, your, uh, the

performance piece of how you deliver

296

that information, that's where I

think you're gonna be relatively safe.

297

John: Yeah.

298

Lorne Kelton: But otherwise,

I think you are at risk.

299

And if I can just add on the AI piece,

if you start looking at some of the

300

other platforms that aren't quite as

well known or used, like, Sesame, I

301

dunno if you're familiar with Sesame, but

Sesame is, uh, I encourage you to take

302

a look at everyone to take a look at it.

303

Um, it's like the others,

but it is strictly auditory.

304

You don't type any prompts.

305

You put on your headset, you speak

and it has the most lifelike.

306

And you can choose between Miles or Maya.

307

If you want the male or the feminist

female voice, and you speak to them and

308

trust me, you believe you're speaking to

a human on the other end of that line.

309

And you can have a conversation with them

and say, miles, I'm having a situation,

310

Lauren, I hear what you're saying.

311

And they're talking so

conversationally and, uh, colloquially

312

that you just wouldn't know.

313

I promise you, you would

not know the difference.

314

So five years from now, that will creep

in as well because for q and as panel

315

discussions, I think that's another

area where AI may, may play a role.

316

John: It will be interesting

to see how all this plays out.

317

I think one thing for sure, speaking

generically on topics is, is not a

318

strong position to be in anyway, I think.

319

And, um, David Newman was on the show

not the long ago saying that how to,

320

how to speaking is pretty much over.

321

And, um, and having spoken to

someone in the a in, in from

322

booking agency, not long after that,

they're saying, no, not completely.

323

So these, the, the, there's phases of all

this stuff, but it is certainly, it is

324

certainly worth checking where you are

at and where, where is getting booked

325

still and what, what kinds of talks and

people are getting booked these days.

326

one of the things that really made

me want to speak and connect with you

327

in, in the first place, other, other

than being, being recommended by one

328

of my friends as well, was seeing your

profile that you, one of the only people

329

I've really come across who, who talks

about critical thinking skills and

330

for me it's a really important area

and I've always struggled with that.

331

The whole concept of the people

really want to know about critical

332

thinking skills because it seems

that critical thinking is something

333

makes people don't want to do.

334

It's a bit of an effort.

335

They'd much rather keep their thinking

simple and not, not challenge logical

336

fallacies and those kinds of things.

337

But you, you talk on this topic.

338

So tell me a little, can you tell us

a little bit about what it is you talk

339

about in relation to that and, and why you

see it as being an, an important topic?

340

Lorne Kelton: Critical thinking as

a topic, actually as a workshop.

341

Um, which is part of what I do.

342

catalyst for that.

343

John started as a keynote speech way

back where I was delivering a, um, an

344

address to bankers, mid-level bankers

with a large bank here in Canada.

345

And following that chat, one of the

VPs came up to me and said, you know,

346

interesting information, but highly,

highly sceptical, saying that sounds

347

really good in theory, Lauren, but how,

what would that look like on the floor?

348

Like if you were in our environment

with our people day to day, physically

349

next to them, how would the information

you've just said translate on the floor?

350

What would the ROI be?

351

Whether it's financial productivity,

cultural dev, whatever.

352

And I did not have an answer or at

least a good answer, but I wanted

353

that business, but I did not get that

business 'cause I didn't have, um, an

354

approach that would've satisfied him.

355

But it set me to work on a,

um, on a formula I got in.

356

I worked with a colleague on,

on a first book on the topic of

357

critical thinking for managers.

358

And that led to a workshop and.

359

The number of keynotes started to go way

down, and the, the amount of consultation

360

on site with clients went way up.

361

Even to this day, the majority of

my work now is on site with clients

362

trying to apply the stuff that

I say, the theory into practise.

363

So that's where the critical thinking

piece came in, because the majority

364

of the problems that organisations

were facing boiled down in a lot of

365

cases to a lack of critical thought

on the part of senior management.

366

So they were running to all kinds

of conflicts that were leading to,

367

um, dismissals, to direct report

conflicts and everything in between.

368

So the critical thinking piece at its core

simply says, what is it that triggered

369

in the first place the need to resolve

problem X that appears to be companywide?

370

What was that?

371

And so I borrowed from storytelling

days, and I, and I know you'll probably

372

appreciate, uh, the roots of this, but

you know, in, in good storytelling,

373

it always starts off with a conflict.

374

Something happens, right?

375

And it, it sets the characters off on

a journey, and then there's obstacles

376

along the way that have to be overcome.

377

It's no different in the

corporate environment.

378

So taking some of those storytelling

principles and developing them into a

379

structured approach for critical thought

has worked extremely well, because

380

most people are not prepared to look

in the mirror and admit what their role

381

is in the problem in the first place.

382

It's always somebody else.

383

So, uh, for example, in a workshop, I'll

ask somebody what the current issues

384

are, and then we will troubleshoot

and we will peel that layer.

385

And nine times outta 10, it

comes back to that individual.

386

So what is the incident?

387

What is it that triggered you?

388

Why do you have these feelings

about John that are so negative?

389

And you can trace that history back

and, and I need to put a warning in

390

there because sometimes that history,

when you trace it back, it can go

391

back to trauma in childhood, you know,

and we're not there as therapists.

392

Don't never do therapy from the stage,

just one of the adages we have, right?

393

Um, and if it is traumatic from

something in the past, we try to

394

steer it in another direction where

they can perhaps flesh that out.

395

But the idea is what is the trigger?

396

Once, once you've identified the trigger,

well then you can ex explore why you're

397

feeling the way you're feeling about it.

398

That leads to reflection.

399

That leads to, and I'm giving

you the cliff noes version that

400

leads to surfacing assumptions.

401

What are the assumptions and

biases that are holding you back?

402

And in that context, not in life

in general, but in that context,

403

what assumptions are you making?

404

They develop new meaning, and

then you execute an actual plan.

405

You put a written plan together that

says, this will be the new approach.

406

So that the next time I'm triggered.

407

Ah, I will take a deep breath

and I will not act impulsively.

408

I will try my best and it takes time.

409

So I dunno if that gives you a bit

of a sense, but that the genesis of

410

it is in the performing arts and the

result is trying to solve tangible

411

problems on the workshop floor.

412

John: what aspects of critical

thinking do you most commonly find

413

yourself talking about or teaching?

414

I mean, I would imagine

cognitive bias would be the

415

most significant part of that.

416

Lorne Kelton: Absolutely.

417

And that's where, you know, there's a,

a direct correlation between biases and

418

all the different biases that exist and

the assumptions that flow from that.

419

And sometimes it's the other way around.

420

What have we heard about?

421

And it always comes down to people.

422

It never comes down to systems.

423

We may have a bias against a system

or a programme or ai, but essentially

424

when it impacts work, it's about

another person or people or my

425

boss or it, whatever it might be.

426

And so understanding what biases

and spending a couple of hours

427

defining what the different biases

are, because you get a lot of that.

428

You know what, why do people,

small digression here, John,

429

but I think it'll make a point.

430

Why do people invest so much

money going to motivational camps?

431

and I won't name Ms, I don't

wanna single anybody out because

432

I have a lot of respect for them.

433

But why do people spend five, $10,000

to spend a weekend listening to a

434

guru and come away 48 hours later

where all that I use the analogy

435

of a, a balloon with helium in it.

436

You blow it up, you blow

it, whoa, it goes like this.

437

And then 48 hours later, whew, it's gone.

438

And now they're thinking about,

well, how am I gonna apply this?

439

And they never apply.

440

And they go back next

year and they go again.

441

and I'm fine with that if that's a

vacation and that's a motivational

442

piece for you and you've made that.

443

But the psychology behind that and

the biases behind that, and the stage

444

that is set to, I don't wanna use the

word manipulate, but to manipulate

445

people's vulnerabilities and shape

their biases, is very, very powerful.

446

And if I had one mission in life, it

would be to deconstruct all of that.

447

So yes, defining what the biases are,

surfacing those assumptions, confronting

448

them is a very powerful experience.

449

and, and when it's tied to something

tangible, then it's real and truthful.

450

And it's not airy fairy stuff.

451

John: You know, a long time ago on the

show, I had the chance to interview

452

and I say interview would be the

wrong word, because I had the chance

453

to sit and experience a bit of a

masterclass with, with a gentleman

454

called Donald Robertson, who is stoic

philosopher, very, very interesting guy.

455

And anise are some of the things

that were coming up as we were, a

456

lot of stoic elements are involved,

like Socratic thinking and, some

457

critical thinking elements to it.

458

And we were sort of having that

conversation about why this

459

isn't more common, why these

skills aren't more widely taught.

460

Because in the time of Aristotle,

for example, these were skills

461

that were taught in school.

462

It was part of the, a

critical part of education.

463

And yet now really only taught

in sort of maybe more elite

464

schools, more private schools.

465

It, not commonly taught.

466

And so most people are not going out

into the world armed with the tools to

467

be able to think for themselves more at

risk than of being told what to think than

468

being able to figure out what to think.

469

Lorne Kelton: And it comes down to

one core element in my estimation,

470

and that is evidence, the word

evidence, supporting your argument

471

with evidence, the search for truth.

472

It's very elusive at times.

473

And I'm glad you brought up Aristotle

because even on the storytelling side

474

with the poetics, for example, and I

know you're quite familiar with that.

475

it's the same thing.

476

and people like, Socrates paid a heavy

price for trying to seek the truth.

477

So, I think with some of those other

institutions that you're referring to

478

are doing is they're hammering home

the point that you can put forth an

479

argument, but you'd better, it better

be sitting on top of a tripod with

480

at least three triangulated pieces

of data that support that argument.

481

And that's not what is being done.

482

And that's why I think the AI

piece for a lot of speakers in

483

those mid-tier categories, if I

can call them that, are at risk.

484

But, but those that support their

positions with critical thought

485

and support it with verifiable

evidence will never lose out.

486

And then if you can, and then if you can

share that information in a way that's

487

very compelling, whether it's on the

comedy stage or on the, you know, any

488

performance, wow, those folks will never

be, short of work in, 'cause there's

489

always money on the table for that.

490

I've never seen that pie shrink.

491

Not yet.

492

John: where then do you think

opportunity lies for speakers

493

today and for those maybe coming

into the industry at this time?

494

Lorne Kelton: I'm not gonna like

my answer, but I have to admit

495

a truth that a few years ago

would not have been the truth.

496

you've heard the term,

you know, pick a lane.

497

I think you've even referenced the

need to really be hyper-focused,

498

you know, in, in, in a specialty.

499

I've always been a general

practitioner, you know, that dirty word.

500

Well, you can't be all

things to all people.

501

I never tried to be all things to all

people, but I did try like a general

502

internist doctor who is responsible

for looking at multiple organs.

503

There is a connection between all of it.

504

There's a puzzle to be solved there.

505

So I never looked at general

practitioners in the speaking world

506

in a negative light the way some do.

507

That said to your question, going forward,

hyper specificity will be a key because

508

the problems that need to be solved

are going to get narrower and narrower.

509

And I do believe speakers are

going to be asked to prove

510

their ROI almost in advance.

511

They're gonna need to show that

these pearls of wisdom actually

512

do translate into more than just

a good feeling for 48 hours.

513

They have to translate

into a monetary benefit.

514

And I'm passionate about that because

that's what shifted all my work

515

was once I could show that this

evidence-based approach worked, then

516

the referral business really took,

oh, it took 10 years, but the referral

517

business, slowly but surely took off.

518

Oh, credibility, because you

can't fast track credibility.

519

So in the future, I think that hyper

focus is gonna matter even more.

520

Uh, you may recall Malcolm

Gladwell's book, what was it called?

521

Um, um, outliers if that book

Please, you know, where he came

522

up with the 10,000 hour rule,

which everyone is familiar with.

523

But that 10,000 hours is, is

more true today than ever.

524

And maybe it's a hundred thousand hours.

525

You know, I read an article yesterday

in the paper saying people work

526

5, 8, 10 years for their PhD in

whichever field, and then universities

527

give out honorary doctorates.

528

And the article was focused on how big a

slap in the face that is to everybody who

529

worked and slave to get their real PhD.

530

Right?

531

So a bit of a tangent there, but

that, that is where I believe there

532

will remain value, uh, in the future.

533

And that John and being yourself be

accepting the fact that your points of

534

view may not sit well with everybody

and you need to be okay with that.

535

And some people aren't okay with that.

536

Those that are I think will do well.

537

John: Do.

538

Do you feel then that people entering

into the speaking world need to come

539

from a background of expertise in a

specific area to be able to do that?

540

Lorne Kelton: Depending on the topic, yes.

541

But you know, we have, for example,

in our speaker association and many

542

of the other associations that exist

in the world, there are people there.

543

There's the under 20 crowd and some

other doing extremely well because

544

they've tapped into something that

resonates with that generation.

545

And it is generation specific.

546

I keep thinking that.

547

My talk today on, I have a talk

called, uh, it's called Talk is

548

Cheap, the Expertise Imperative,

that's the name of the talk.

549

That material does not resonate

with the 20 something crowd.

550

Now I can rework it and I can try

to make it more relevant, and maybe

551

I will, but the 20 somethings,

for example, have tapped into the

552

zeitgeist of their generation.

553

And so if the topics they're

talking on are hyper relevant to

554

that audience, then they're fine.

555

But if they're coming in on the

stage green and expecting to speak

556

on one of these other more generic

topics, no, I don't, I think they

557

should spend their time elsewhere.

558

John: It does really come down to,

what you're coming into speaking for.

559

for those who maybe are looking to

have a full-time speaker career.

560

if they're looking to primarily do

keynotes more than anything else,

561

this conversation cannot be ignored.

562

if they are looking perhaps more

for the workshop side, still need

563

to pay attention to these things.

564

But I wonder how much space there

will be in the future for people

565

who are perhaps purely motivational

or inspirational speakers.

566

I think we even now see that there's

perhaps more demand for celebrity speakers

567

than there is more for people who have

particular expertise in a particular area,

568

that they'd rather just have someone who

they've seen on the telly or seen in,

569

a film or the news, given them a talk.

570

Even if it's not the

most fascinating talk.

571

it's an interesting world that

we live in, but where people find

572

value is where they find value.

573

Lorne Kelton: Correct.

574

You know, even the husbands and

wives of celebrity speakers are on

575

the trail making tonnes of money.

576

You know, I think of Oprah's, I don't

know, I think it's maybe her ex now, but

577

I remember when he was on the speaking.

578

So a hundred thousand dollars US speaking

fees, this the husband of the celebrity.

579

So yes, that's, but that's a very

niche market and I don't think most

580

people need to worry about that.

581

Where I do think there's more worry, John

is less the celebrity side, which is less

582

than one half of 1% of your competition.

583

It's the internal association or

corporate expert who's being tapped

584

internally because it costs them nothing.

585

You know, they're paying that salary

already and now they're being asked

586

to speak at the upcoming event

or a GM or whatever it might be.

587

And those folks are getting

honorariums at best that we've seen,

588

at least on this side of the pond.

589

A tremendous surge of bookings

to those individuals at the

590

expense of, uh, the rest of us.

591

And another point, um, that comes to

mind from what you just mentioned is

592

we, we, in our speaker association

number of years ago, we did a survey

593

to find out what portion of their

annual, of the memberships annual

594

income was coming from pure keynoting.

595

And less than 13% of our members

were making a full-time living

596

strictly on the platform.

597

You know, the vast majority, it

was a component of their revenue.

598

They were facilitators, trainers,

MCs, consultants, et cetera.

599

And this was a niche part of that.

600

So I think up, uh, up and coming

speakers need to take that into

601

consideration and say, how can I

leverage my expertise in these areas?

602

My 30 years in business, my 25

years as a CEO or anywhere down

603

the pi, how can that be leveraged?

604

And there's a lot of power there.

605

So I would.

606

John: Is worth thinking in the

UK and Europe, more particularly,

607

more so around most across Europe.

608

The, the speaking industry is just not as

big and and certainly not as big as it is

609

in the US and probably in Canada as well.

610

And whilst it's growing

is still a long way to go.

611

So opportunity is there and paid speaking

is there, but primarily the, for career

612

speakers, for professional speakers,

that money is in corporate speaking and

613

not many of, not that many other places.

614

Some in educational, some in

motivational, some in, more

615

private talks and sales from stage.

616

But for the majority it's corporate

speaking that they're gonna be looking at.

617

And many of them just, myself included

will say it's not very easy to make a

618

full-time, salary to make a, the income

that you want to make just from speaking.

619

So, so yeah, you have the consulting,

you have the coaching, you have

620

the backend products, the online

courses, whatever else it is.

621

and do I do find people like things

like I'm doing like stepping into the

622

comedy circuit or stepping into, after

dinner speaking some of these areas

623

that still demand, there's still demand

for people toe events and all those

624

sorts of things, but you end up being

a bit more of a, perhaps a generalist

625

having to broaden some of your skills.

626

I don't see it as a bad thing.

627

I see it as something that actually

keeps things a bit fresh and exciting.

628

it's somewhat necessary,

but I would do that anyway.

629

I wouldn't want to just be doing

keynotes, but for those who

630

perhaps do, which is what I wanna

do is get up and do a keynote, I

631

think that's gonna be difficult,

632

Lorne Kelton: I agree.

633

It's difficult, but not impossible.

634

And I think part of what we have,

part of what we haven't discussed is,

635

you know, the business of speaking,

you know, there's the speaking and a

636

lot of bright-eyed and bushy-tailed

newcomers to the business, see the

637

glitz and the glamour and the money.

638

And there's a little

bit of that, you know.

639

But for every four seasons hotel

in Dubai that you speak in, you're

640

probably speaking in 10 or 15 super

eights in Topeka, Kansas, you know?

641

So, the, the glory part of it

is not always well understood.

642

Yeah, there's money, there's

plenty of money out in the

643

marketplace, but it's hoarded.

644

It's hoarded, and it is

distributed according to criteria

645

that you may not yet have.

646

and you need to be conscious of that.

647

But the business side of it.

648

And you said you had

David Newman on, recently?

649

I haven't heard that one, but I know him

well, and he is, I've sat in on a number

650

of his sessions, very practical, you know,

it's getting out of your own way and do

651

you understand the marketing component?

652

Do you understand the referral piece?

653

Do you understand the technology

piece and the need for reels or not?

654

The need for reels and all of that stuff.

655

I would encourage, if anybody's

watching this that is new or thinking

656

about getting into the business, make

that 50% of your effort and energy as

657

much as it is crafting your stories.

658

And I hope we can get into a little

bit of the story part of it, because,

659

you know, the stories, storytelling

in your keynotes, is far more

660

effective than presenting evidence.

661

And we've said that evidence

is at the root of everything.

662

But when your audience is sitting there in

the moment consuming your content, they're

663

looking for emotional reactions, right?

664

So they'll buy into your story.

665

and I think you've said this yourself,

you know that the, the head will justify

666

what the heart has already decided, right?

667

On many occasions.

668

So, but your audience will step

away from that, and then they'll

669

do their research and say, wait a

second, that was all bs, you know?

670

But in the moment, those are the stories.

671

So newcomers, 50%, build your

business, 50%, craft your

672

stories and bring them together.

673

That's easy.

674

That's easy to said, John.

675

I'm not pretending to say it's easy.

676

John: No, I, I do, I I do think

it's worth saying because I see this

677

with a lot of speakers that they

think, oh, I want more business.

678

I want more clients.

679

I'm gonna, I'm gonna go and just

improve my storytelling skills, or I'm

680

just gonna go and improve my stage,

charisma, my, my stage work, and

681

I'm gonna work with a speech writer.

682

these are all good things, but you have

to have that business side as well.

683

And I think that's what a, a lot of

speakers don't want to focus on so much

684

because they just want to do the thing

and they just wanna get up on the stage

685

and excited and engage their, audiences.

686

And, yeah, it's, it is like this is

all valuable, but the business side

687

doesn't just take care of itself.

688

Lorne Kelton: Correct.

689

And I will tell you something that you

likely know, but perhaps others don't.

690

And that is, if you were to go to

10 keynote addresses at different

691

organisations over the next month, sit

in, get an invitation to be able to

692

sit in the audience and watch these

five, 10, $15,000 speakers, likely

693

come away saying, yeah, he was good.

694

She was amazing, but seven outta the 10

you'd say, I can do better than that.

695

How is it possible that they did they

not know is my, I'll tell you something.

696

A lot of speakers get booked, not

because they're the best for that topic,

697

but for a whole host of other reasons.

698

You might not even think about,

like how easy they are to work with.

699

You know, that they live up to

their commitments, that they fill in

700

the, that they can cut their talk.

701

You've been given 45 minutes and

there's been a major kerfuffle,

702

and you, it needs to be 30 minutes.

703

Now, how many people can slice

15 minutes off without skipping

704

a beat and without or add?

705

Could you please add our next

person is not, is stuck in traffic.

706

This isn't gonna be here.

707

Could you stretch it out and without,

you know, without sweating it, do that.

708

So the, there's a whole host of

reasons why people get booked

709

that may transcend the quality of

and the competency of their work.

710

Does that make sense?

711

Have you seen

712

John: It does.

713

It's, yeah, absolutely.

714

and it's the unseen elements,

the, the stuff that you perhaps

715

you don't see going on stage.

716

The, you know, the asking for

referrals, the network building,

717

the, the relationship development

with bookers and other people.

718

All these things that you don't

see, but a lot of speakers don't do.

719

that, that is actually getting them, often

getting them rebooked or the, this, the

720

decision making, difference of getting

you booked or not getting you booked as

721

to, like you said, how easy you are to

work with, how much of a, an impression

722

you make, whether people are actually

talking about what you do or whether

723

there has actually been any change or

difference from what you deliver as well.

724

there's a lot of stuff, there's a

lot of elements that go into this.

725

let's come to the storytelling thing

though, because I wanna make sure

726

we get to this because it is such

a critical part of what you do.

727

and I know that you are a great

storytelling yourself, so I would love

728

to hear it's, we haven't really visited

for a while on the show as well, so

729

that should be nice to come back to it.

730

But I do know often, I often will

say things like, you know, it's

731

like storytelling is important.

732

You know, religions have

been born outta storytelling.

733

People have been voted into

political power through storytelling.

734

We, we say it's not important, but

it's actually critical to life, to

735

the oil is the power of the oil that

keeps society moving in many ways.

736

Lorne Kelton: Wow.

737

Yes.

738

And metaphors and analogies go

a long way, especially if you're

739

speaking on a topic, especially if

there's complexities to it, you know?

740

Um, I've always said that you can replace

a PowerPoint slide, and I, I, in my, uh,

741

talk is cheap, uh, keynote, I actually

put up these PowerPoint slides that are so

742

intricate, and they have tens of thousands

of pieces of data embedded in it.

743

And I said, do you wanna sit this or

would you rather hear the story about?

744

And the point simply being that

there's virtually nothing that

745

can't be converted into a story.

746

Even boring raw data points

and spreadsheets and financial

747

statements, you can spin stories

around your balance sheet.

748

So that's the starting point.

749

Metaphors and analogies in my

world, tend to be the best way to

750

deconstruct complexity, to make

difficult topics understandable.

751

But then the work begins.

752

How do I start that story?

753

Right?

754

Well, you I, we don't have the time

today to go into a storytelling

755

workshop, but you know, should

always begin with the end in mind.

756

I've always said to audience, to

people who, anybody who will listen.

757

H how do you want the audience

to feel when you end this?

758

Do you want them motivated?

759

Do you want them happy?

760

Do you want them sad?

761

Do you want them to be pensive?

762

Uh, because it's okay.

763

There's a lot of good movies made

where you walk out going, that

764

wasn't a very, uh, uplifting ending.

765

Well, it wasn't meant to be

because the message may sink

766

in better if it's not right.

767

And it goes back to that whole 48 hour

thing, and don't get me started, John.

768

'cause I'm, I'm not happy with how

successful a number of key people are

769

by preying on people's vulnerabilities

and using psychological tools and

770

pseudoscience to manipulate people's

emotions and feelings for a buck, only

771

to try to upsell them to the next level.

772

Right?

773

Good for them if it works for them.

774

But it makes me feel, on a

personal level, very badly.

775

Stories can also unwind

that kind of stuff.

776

You can, you can share

bad news through a story.

777

So when it comes to storytelling, I

could talk, I could talk your ear off.

778

But a, in a nutshell, the

stories are a way to convey core

779

information that otherwise would

be very difficult to convey.

780

John: Yeah, I think, you know, a nice

insight I think that I got, and one of

781

the ways like to think about this as

well because I do think, particularly in

782

relation to Metaphor, I think a lot of

speakers ignore that almost completely.

783

and yeah, I had someone like, if you

know Simon Lancaster, but had had him on

784

the show a few times the last time I was

chatting with him, he was talking about

785

connect book about being is really about

helping people to make the connections.

786

And this is what stories do.

787

You are helping people to make connections

for themselves in their own mind.

788

You're not telling them what to think.

789

You are helping them visualise,

helping them build the story often

790

see themselves in it as well, but

therefore make the connections that

791

should be made rather than having

to tell them what the connection is.

792

And that means more to them,

it stays with them more.

793

you know, Dan and Chip Heath talk

about, how it's the case stories,

794

could be the difference between

being remembered and forgotten in a

795

presentation if you don't have the

stories in there, and they're not the

796

only people that have talked about that.

797

But not having the stories in there

can make you very forgettable as

798

a presenter, because people are

like, well, what did you talk about?

799

I don't remember much about your

presentation at all, but it is nearly

800

always the stories that people remember.

801

Lorne Kelton: Great point.

802

And then the ques, it begs the

question, well, what is it?

803

What is it in a story that

you've told that does land?

804

'cause I agree with you.

805

have a line that I use which says,

you know, our job on the platform is

806

not to tell people what to think as

you alluded to, but rather to give

807

them ideas to think upon so that

they can draw their own conclusions.

808

And I dunno if you've ever

heard of a speaker, outta

809

the us, named Larry Wingett.

810

Does that ring a bell to you?

811

John: I've heard the name, but I couldn't

812

picture him.

813

Yeah.

814

Lorne Kelton: viewers or

listeners, on this side of the

815

pond, will likely know that name.

816

But he did a keynote, I think it

817

he was very clear and he tells the

story about being in an airport,

818

running into a fellow speaker.

819

And the fellow speaker, is coming

up to him and says, hi, Larry.

820

And Larry says, Hey, how's it going?

821

What are you up to?

822

He says, well, you know, Larry, I'm

out there changing lives, right?

823

And he said, how about you, Larry?

824

What are you doing?

825

Well, we, I'm out there filling my

hour, and his whole point was that

826

we don't change people's lives.

827

And so get that notion out of your head.

828

If you're that ego-centric

speaker who thinks you're cha and

829

you post about it on Instagram.

830

And I saw someone recently, over

here, a well-known speaker who

831

posted on her Instagram thing.

832

I nailed it with photographs of her,

with the audience in the background.

833

And it was a, and I can't change that.

834

But the stories you tell that land are

the one and my experience are the ones

835

where you've exposed a vulnerability

of some sort that gives that person

836

in the audience permission to consider

doing the same thing, or the permission

837

to consider being vulnerable with

someone to get a breakthrough.

838

But too often I see people's egos

standing in the way or being confused

839

with someone's breakthrough, all that.

840

And that is not a, that is

not a direct connection.

841

So, we could talk about what makes

a story land, but in a nutshell,

842

it really is about, well, first

of all, do you believe your story?

843

Did it actually happen to you?

844

'cause sometimes your borrowing

stories, it's like, it's, it's like

845

keynote speeches or signature stories.

846

Signature stories.

847

Well, if you've been around this

business long enough, you've probably

848

hurt someone else telling your

signature story better than you did.

849

So, storytelling, yes.

850

The best way to convey the

essence of your message.

851

John: such an important mark.

852

We might have to bring you back on the

show long just to talk about storytelling.

853

'cause I think, it's a conversation

that I would love to get more

854

deeply into with you as well.

855

one that, Sammy, we will end up

ba massively overrunning if we, if

856

we start going, deeply into today.

857

But it's, but it's a critical area.

858

But I will, but I will ask you, I

think it's one thing that, unless

859

there may be something, where do

you find the stories for your talks?

860

where do they come from for you?

861

Are you sitting there just thinking about

how the, how you want the audience to

862

feel or other aspects or other elements

coming into your story selection?

863

do you have those stories kind of in

a, some sort of library ready to go?

864

Lorne Kelton: Million dollar question.

865

I have a drawer on my desk that

is chock-full of just handwritten

866

post-it notes and pieces of

paper that jot stuff down.

867

When anything of consequence happens

to me, that, and most of those

868

things I've never been able to use.

869

But going back to my earlier point, if

I'm being engaged by an organisation to

870

achieve a goal that has been made very

clear to me, and I'm doing that working

871

backwards thing, the first thing I'm

doing is, hmm, what stories may I have?

872

What experiences have I gone through

that may speak to that specific outcome?

873

So if it's a productivity issue, I

will look and see where I have failed

874

and I'm looking for my failures

and I've had plenty of them and

875

continue to, vulnerability pieces.

876

What am I prepared for years,

John, for years and years,

877

until it was probably 2019.

878

From 2002 to 2019, I was doing a lot of

this work, but never shared a personal

879

story where I came out with something

vulnerable about in my personal

880

life or with my kids or anything.

881

And I finally took a chance in that

fateful in a, in a fateful keynote

882

and told a story that could easily be

perceived as, oh my God, well we can't,

883

there's no way we could hire that guy

if he's been through that experience.

884

so that's what I try to do and stories

I find have to be a hundred percent

885

relevant and I will test them out.

886

I will test them out with a

trusted, advisory group of two or

887

three people that I can do that

with and say, here's my story.

888

It's truthful.

889

The context is this.

890

Do you think this will lend

and get some, there's nothing

891

wrong with getting feedback.

892

Some of us are not good at taking

feedback 'cause we think we know it,

893

we have the story and there it is.

894

But that's that in a nutshell,

that's how I approach it.

895

is the problem to solve?

896

Do I have an experience

that relates to it?

897

Can I bring a vulnerability to it that I'm

off to the races to construct that story?

898

And each one is usually, can't

recycle stories very often, but

899

that's the approach I would use.

900

John: It's, your answer that me

every answer you to all my question

901

is firing off these nuances.

902

There's so many questions I could

ask you, but clearly gonna have

903

to bring you back, ask you to come

back on the show in the future long

904

because, you've been very generous

with time and your knowledge today.

905

And, this has been a thoroughly

enjoyable conversation.

906

Has it?

907

It's taken on turns that I

really didn't anticipate.

908

I didn't think we'd end up

talking about at the start, but

909

I think it's a genuinely useful

conversation to be having for people.

910

But covered a lot of territory today.

911

Is there one thing that know, since

we've been talking a lot about speakers

912

and speaking industry, is there one

thing that you would say maybe is

913

a word of encouragement or Yeah.

914

Word of encouragement for speakers who

are maybe feeling challenged at the moment

915

or maybe thinking, oh gosh, this is,

seems like a bad time to be a speaker.

916

Lorne Kelton: Well, the good news

is that a lot of us, even those who

917

have been around in the business

for a long time, we do go through

918

our crisis of conscience as well.

919

We still go through and I go through

the quote unquote imposter syndrome

920

stuff all the time, and I wonder why?

921

What's wrong with my psychology?

922

What's wrong?

923

Nothing's wrong, nothing's wrong.

924

It's normal to feel some of these

emotions that are not always

925

positive and often derail us from

going to the next step or giving up.

926

And I know you've spoken about this

and it's fascinating, perspective

927

on this, but the positive, the

word of advice is as corny as it

928

may sound, be true to yourself.

929

Do n never be afraid to be yourself

and no one else don't copy.

930

Don't be a facsimile.

931

Who are you?

932

What matters to you?

933

Let that shine through every time

because it's a fail safe way to

934

get booked and hopefully rebooked.

935

And that's it.

936

Don't be a hypocrite.

937

John: It is, it is good advice.

938

So assuming many people are trying to

fit a mode of what they think a certain

939

type of speaker should be, rather

than just showing up as themselves and

940

not realising damaging that can be to

their prospects, nor this is This's.

941

Truly been a fun and valuable

conversation for our list there.

942

Soly, I hope you will come back

again in the future on the show

943

because there's so many more things

I'd love to get into with you.

944

But for our listener, for our viewer

who may be thinking, I'd like to

945

know more about Lorne, he's a really

interesting guy, and maybe even find

946

out more about your workshops what work

you do, the best way for our listener,

947

our viewer, to find out more about

you and maybe even get in contact.

948

Lorne Kelton: Well, thanks for that, John.

949

I really appreciate that.

950

always the website, I mean there's

LinkedIn and there's Facebook

951

and et cetera, but the best

place for all the material is the

952

website, which is think shift.com.

953

That's one word, think and shift.

954

You'll find everything there,

the keynotes, workshops the

955

coaching pieces as well.

956

It's all there.

957

John: There's, there's some great footage

of some of your stage right there as well.

958

We, well worth checking out.

959

Lorne, thank you so much for coming and

sharing your time, your expertise, and so

960

much fun and insight on the show as well.

961

It's been a real pleasure to have you be

a guest on professional speaking show.

962

Lorne Kelton: It's been my pleasure, John.

963

Thank you.

964

John: Before I let you go, I want to

come back to something that Lorne said,

965

because I'm less worried than he is about

the future of professional speaking.

966

I can absolutely see a period where

some organizations try the cheap option.

967

It's happened before.

968

Someone will decide that they can

generate a presentation, put it on

969

screen, and save the speaker fee.

970

And some of those presentations

might even look quite good on paper.

971

But then people have to sit through them.

972

A live speaker can read the room.

973

They can feel when an idea hasn't landed.

974

They can change course.

975

They can make people laugh or

give them a moment to think.

976

The best ones bring experience

and conviction that the audience

977

can question and connect with.

978

That relationship matters, especially

when you're asking people to

979

reconsider something that they

believe or change what they do.

980

AI will change how we

research, write, and prepare.

981

It may put pressure on speakers whose

talks offer little beyond information

982

that you could find elsewhere.

983

I think that's a challenge

worth taking seriously.

984

I don't think it means people will

stop wanting to hear from other

985

people or justifying budgets.

986

So my question after this conversation

is this: what happens in your talk

987

that could only happen because you are

there with those people in that room?

988

Thanks to Lorne Kelton for a conversation

that gave me plenty to think about and

989

argue with, and thank you for listening.

990

Now, go do something worth talking

about, and I'll see you next time