Today on the podcast I'm speaking to Kirsty Brummell. Kirsty helps businesses ranging from startups to larger corporations to effectively protect, enforce, and manage their trademarks and designs. She gives advice on copyright matters and helps businesses realise the potential of their intellectual property. 

It’s something I know a lot of you would like to know more about, so I was thrilled to connect with Kirsty to learn more. 

In this episode we discuss the different kinds of intellectual property, how to protect yourself, how much you can expect to page, and what to do if you are working to a tight budget.

We also cover what to do if you believe someone is violating your copyright and also what to do if you get contacted by someone to say that you are violating theirs.

It’s a fantastic episode full of a huge amount of practical advice for anyone running their own business. The key takeaway is that Kirsty makes this complex subject a lot less scary - her overlying message is, whatever happens, please don't panic. I think that's a really reassuring message and hopefully you will feel the same after you've listened to the episode.

Listen in to hear Kirsty share:

• An introduction to herself and her business (02:08)
• What intellectual property is, and some of the things you might want to protect as a small business (02:43)
• How automatic copyrights work (04:43)
• Patents (07:14)
• Trademarks and protecting your brand name (08:33)
• Top tips for registering a trademark (14:14)
• What you can expect to pay for these (16:25)
• The best ways to protect your intellectual property when you are on a tight budget (17:59)
• What happens after you have protection in place? (19:38)
• Monitoring and managing issues and infringements that might arise (21:33)
• What to do when a bigger brand copies you (23:05)
• What to do if you encounter copyright infringement (25:54)
• What to do if someone says you have infringed on their copyright or trademark (28:39)
• Dealing with a cease and desist letter (30:48)
• The meaning of ™ & R in a circle (33:39)
• Her number one piece of advice for protecting your intellectual property (36:21)

USEFUL RESOURCES:

Trademark Tonic Website

Kirsty Brummell Linked In

Trademark Tonic Linked In

Trademark Tonic Twitter

Trademark Tonic Facebook

UK Gov Intellectual Property Office

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Let's get started.

Hi.

I hope you're having a great day so far.

So today on the podcast I'm speaking to Kirsty Brummel.

Kirsty helps businesses ranging from startups to larger corporations to

effectively protect, enforce, and manage their trademarks and designs.

She gives advice and copyright matters and helps businesses realize the

potential of their intellectual property.

So this is an episode I've been wanting to record for quite some time.

I was just looking for the perfect person.

And then a along came Kirsty, which was fantastic.

So I get lots of questions about patents, trademarks, copyrights, how to

keep your intellectual property safe.

Um, and Kirsty is a perfect person to answer all of those questions.

So we go into detail about all the different kinds of intellectual property,

um, what you need to do to register, how much it costs, and what to do

if you believe someone is violating.

Your copyright and also what to do if you get contacted by someone to

say that you are violating theirs.

So all in all, I think there is a lot that we can all learn from this episode.

I certainly learnt lots of things I didn't know before.

Um, and I guess the key thing I want you to take away is that

Kirsty makes this kind of complex subject um, a lot less scary.

Um, I think her overlying message is, whatever happens, please don't panic.

Um, and I think that's a really reassuring message.

Hopefully you all feel the same after you've listened to the episode.

And if you have any questions at all on anything that Kirsty's covered in

this episode, you'll be able to contact her via the details in the show notes.

So I'd love now to introduce you to Kirsty.

So, hi Kirsty.

Thank you so much for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me on the podcast.

You're so welcome.

Can we start by you, please give an introduction to yourself,

your business, and what you do.

Yeah, sure.

So my name's Kirsty Brummel.

I'm a chartered UK trademark attorney and I am set up

Trademark Tonic, um, in May, 2020.

And basically I help businesses and individuals to protect their

intellectual property rights.

So.

Covering trademarks and designs and copyright mainly.

Um, and just helping in all aspects, whether that be protection,

enforcement, management, um, and anything to do with IP matters.

Brilliant.

Thank you so much.

So I know this is a huge, huge topic, Kirsty.

So let's start, um, by talking about intellectual property and maybe what that

means and what are some of the things that we could protect as a small business.

Yeah, sure.

So in terms of intellectual property, um, it's a, an umbrella term, which

basically it's, um, to do with intangible assets and that covers, um, things

such as trademarks, designs, copyright, patents, and there's also some other,

um, topics as well that it can cover off.

But those are the main, um, form and I specialize particularly in

trademarks, designs and copyright.

Um, so with trademarks, that covers, um, brand names and logos and, um, basically,

um, you know, registering a trademark, for example, to obtain protection and be able

to, um, help you to defend your brand name against other businesses if, if necessary.

And also to build up your own rights in relation to a brand name or logo.

Um, designs could include registering a design again, to try and help protect

it, um, to be able to prevent other people, you know, from, from copying or,

um, having a sort of identical type of design or something very closely similar.

Um, and copyright is an automatic right in the uk and that can cover things.

Um, it's sort of like a, a, a broad variety of things,

such as books and magazines.

It could include drawings, um, it could include sculptures.

Um, so all sorts of things that fall under copyright and that comes into

existence once you record whatever it is.

So for example, drawings that you actually record them down and then you

would have copyright in relation to that.

Um, and then patents as well, which is to do with inventions.

And, um, basically there needs to be an inventive step, um, and

capable of industrial application.

Um, and also it needs to be novel in order to obtain a patent

registration, for example, in the UK.

That's brilliant.

Thank you.

Um, so just tell me about copyrights.

You mentioned that you have automatic copyright.

What, what does that mean, Kirsty?

So, in the UK, um, with certain types of intellectuality,

for example, with trademarks and designs and also patterns you

can go through, um, registration.

So for example, with trademarks, you might want to, um, register your brand

name at the Intellectual property office, um, which can be done online,

um, in the UK I P O, which is what it's called is based in Newport.

They've also got an office in London, but a lot of, um,

services are provided online.

Um, so there's that registration route, but with copyright, um, you don't have

to go through this registration route.

In the UK it's just basically automatic that it comes into existence.

Once you've recorded the works that you've created, um, you know, for example,

down on a piece of paper, maybe you've created something on the computer.

Um, and once it's recorded, um, down or recorded in writing, so to speak.

Then the offer of that work will have copyright protection

basically in, in that work itself.

Oh, okay.

I didn't realize that.

Do you have to do anything to prove, like when you created it, for example.

Yeah, so that's one thing that I always, um, sort of mention,

you know, to businesses and individuals when they come and they ask about

copyright is to make sure if possible, um, when you are creating any new work.

So maybe, you know, if you're doing drawings, or, um, you know, you're,

you're writing a book or whatever it is, that basically along the way you

are making records of, you know, the dates of creation of certain pieces

of work, and also who created it.

So if it's yourself, um, you know, sort of keeping a record of that.

Um, and then that could all be used if, if necessarily down the line as

evidence, you know, if there was any sort of dispute in relation to, for

example, who owns copywriting of work.

Um.

And also, you know, if anyone came along and said, um, copied book material,

that you then might want to use your records and evidence in a, um, worst case

scenario, last resort court case against another business maybe or an individual.

That makes sense.

Thank you.

Um, so let's say that someone's looking to get some kind of protection for whether

it's their brand name or it's a, a patent.

Are there any steps we need to take before going ahead and registering?

Yes.

So, um, depending on what you're looking to protect, um, for

example, with patent, um, there are certain criteria you have to meet.

So for, um, say an invention to actually be patentable in the first

place, um, it would have to be novel.

So it has to be new and not already out there.

You know, like in the public domain, it has to have an inventive step.

Um, something that's not obvious, that's, that's inventive about,

um, you know, what you've, um, created in terms of the invention.

And then it has to be capable of industrial application.

So before actually then trying to, you know, like file a pattern application.

You want to make sure, first of all, that you've met those criteria where

possible so that, you know, you don't want sort of waste money, you know, like

finding the application and find out it wasn't patentable in the first place.

It's good to, to look at that first of all.

And also, the other important angle is to do any relevant, um, searching.

So freedom to operate, searching, where you're basically seeing whether there's

any existing patents, um, inventions out there where you could be infringing

those patent rights if you were to, um, basically, you know, like use your

invention in commerce or, you know, then filing this patent application

whether there might be any issues in conflicting with existing rights.

Um, and that's patents and then, um, the same type of things carry

across, you know, to, um, for example, trademarks and designs as well, where

again, searching is very important.

Where possible before, for example, filing a trademark application to make

sure that your new brand name or logo.

Wouldn't be infringing an existing, um, trademark, right.

And registered trademark, right, for example, in the UK.

Um, or that there wouldn't be, um, sort of a passing off issue, which basically

if you are using a brand name over time in the UK, you've built up some goodwill.

Um, you can, um, have established basically, um, Passing off rights, so

to speak, and is to make sure you're not conflicting with those rights as well,

where people have built up, um, goodwill over time in relation to a brand name.

So sort of registered and under registered rights to look at um,

so yeah, definitely searching is, is is quite important, I would say.

And then on the trademark side as well, um, it's making sure, um, and

this is another important point, that your new brand name or logo is

actually distinctive enough in the first place to obtain a registration.

So what happens when you file, for example, a trademark application at

the UK Intellectual Property office, is that it will get examined, um, after

about two to four weeks from filing, and the examiner at the office will be

looking at, um, a trademark application with the, with the brand name or logo

to see is it distinctive enough to actually be registered as a trademark?

Would it be seen as a badge of origin by consumers?

Um, so they make an assessment and in terms of being distinctive, the, the, the,

the best and the strongest trademarks are those, for example, that are invented.

Words, or maybe you've got a combination of two unusual terms brought together,

whereas weaker trademarks and those which could be hard to protect, would

be more on the descriptive side.

Um, so it's like, you know, the classic sort of like trying to register apple

for apples and, and that kind of thing.

Um, so where possible, um, selecting a good and strong brand name or having a,

a good logo in the first place could be important for creating the biggest bubble

of protection around your um, brand or logo and also hopefully decreasing

the chances of issues, you know, like with other, um, businesses as well.

Um, because the more distinctive and sort of inventive the name is, the less

likely hopefully, that you'd be then conflicting with other trademark rights.

That's really helpful.

Thank you.

And I think I heard something once before, you'd be able to tell me

if this is correct, Kirsty, that you can't register the same name.

If there's a company in the same industry, like company in the same industry with

the same name that can be a problem.

But let's say you were going to open an e-commerce business.

You can open a, a sh a shop, but there was a garden, a gardening, a

gardening business with a similar name.

That would be okay.

Is that correct or not correct?

So it, it can depend, um, on basically what the sort of

rights are that, for example, that business has to do with, um, you

know, like e-commerce, let's say.

Um, and whether their rights are really limited to that specific area,

and they've got, for example, the UK trademark registration where they've just

covered certain classes that cover off, you know, they're products and services

of interest, um, and not covering, for example, gardening products and services.

So there's a, you know, like that distinction in terms of what's,

um, there's a classification system basically that, you know,

trademarks have, are filed for.

And if you are in separate classes, then a lot of the time

there can be that distinction and also commercial differences.

And these, um, different, um, you know, if you're then filing an application

that can coexist basically alongside this other registration, which is

in a, you know, a different class.

And also if the owners, you know, like got no issues with this new application

coming through with the same name.

Now, sometimes there could be businesses that have, um, an established reputation.

I mean, particularly, you know, like big business multinationals where they

might have covered so many classes in their trademark application, but

because they have a reputation and because they're so well known, then

basically it broadens out, you know, the, the extent of their trademark

rights and then they can basically oppose, for example, a new application

on the basis of their reputation, even, you know, extending to dissimilar,

um, classes of goods and services.

So in that situation, there could still potentially be an issue,

but a lot of the time, you know, you can find the same brand name

where there's different classes.

Um, I would still say that, you know, I'd be quite cautious about, you

know, when it is the same brand name, making sure there'd be no conflict

in seeing, you know, what the sort of commercial interests are of the owner.

Um, sometimes you can sort of try it out and test the water

and, and see how it goes.

Um, but the other thing to mention as well is even if you obtain a trademark

registration, there is, um, still a sort of vulnerability in terms of it's

still possible to cancel a registration.

So even when you've got a registration, none of a business could come along

and try and cancel that on the basis of, for example, if they've

got earlier trademark rights.

Um, I mean, hopefully that wouldn't happen, but it's just to be

aware that even when you have the registration now doesn't mean it's

a hundred percent safe, so to speak.

That's really useful.

Thank you.

So when we're registering trademarks, do we have to think about registering them

for all the different classes or just stick to the classes that are relevant?

Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question.

Um, and it can depend on certain factors.

Um, so for example, if you've got a business and you are just in a

specific area, um, let's say, you know, maybe like beauty products or

something like that, then you might want to and start off, and that falls,

um, a lot of time under class free.

Um, but maybe you are thinking in a few years time already, you know, you might be

expanding your product range, maybe like going into, um, sort of, um, um, medicated

kind of products or something like that, which would fall under class five.

So you might be thinking, oh, well I'm planning on doing this, so you might

want to cover, you know, more than you'd be using, um, sort of currently, but

you know, sort of trying to cover off what you are planning to use down the

line, um, intended use, so to speak.

Um, but it can come down to budget as well sometimes as to, you know, how

many classes you cover will increase the cost, you know, like in terms

of, for example, the official fees at the UK and such property office.

So then, um, sometimes it come, might come down to your core classes of interest

at the beginning, and then maybe later down the line when you've got more budget

to be thinking about filing, maybe like another trademark application, you might

want to then cover off different classes.

Um, but again, um, the other thing, the sort of thing, think about, there's all

the sort of different things to think of all the time is that, um, you know, is is

it good to cover up what you can at the beginning just to avoid, um, you know,

like later on down the line, could someone else come along and then maybe, um,

cause a conflict, you know, with like new classes that you might want to then cover.

Um, so certainly it's something to be sort of carefully

thinking about at the beginning.

Um, but a lot of the time I find that, um, when businesses come to me, you know, it's

more about the sort of, um, especially when they're starting up just about the

core classes at the beginning and then maybe sort of thinking further down the

line about covering off of the classes.

That makes sense.

Thank you.

Um, you mentioned costs a moment ago Kirsty.

This is probably a good time to talk about costs and I really appreciate

you will not be able to give us exact costs because there'll be so many

different scenarios for every different, you know, every different business.

Everyone listening will have their own unique situation, but can you perhaps

give us some ballpark figures for what we are looking at if we want to protect

our intellectual property, please.

Yes, of course.

So with, um, trademarks as an example, um, there's a set of official fees and then

if you seek professional help, there'll be a professional fee on top of that.

So we're really talking about, um, in the hundreds in terms of, for example,

trademarks and designs with trademarks.

Specifically as an example, the official fee at the UK IPO um, would

be 170 pounds when you file online for one class of goods or services.

And then for each extra class of good source services that you add, the

official fee would be 50 pounds for each extra class that you had done.

And then on top of that, there'd be a professional fee and that basically

can range, you know, like in the low hundreds to the, to the mid hundreds

depending on the firm that you, you go to.

Um, and we've designed, it's in the sort of low hundreds as well.

And then in terms of patents, that's more expensive.

And usually you are looking at, in, in the thousands in terms of, um, the sort of

like the searching and the filing process.

Um, and also the, the patterned timeline is a lot longer as well, you know, like

compared to trademarks and designs.

Thank you so much for explaining that.

Um, how about if you're on a bit of a budget, are there ways to

protect your intellectual property?

Outspending lots of money, at least at the outset?

Yes.

So I would say that, um, you know, you, you, if you're on a limited budget, you

could, for example, look to, um, try and file a trademark application just for your

main brand name or maybe a combined mark.

So you're going for your um, brand name and maybe like a sort of logo,

um, that you'd be using them both in com, um, commerce, but trying

to cover off under, under one mark, you know, right, rather than filing

separate applications for each element.

Um, now that could be good from a, a budget point of view, because

you might be filing one application instead of two at the same time.

Um, when you're trying to get the broadest protection possible, um, it's

advisable, you know, to, to try and, um, file these different elements.

So for example, the plain words of your, um, main brand name, you might

want to file a separate application for, um, a logo image, um, to basically

get the broadest level of protection surrounding that, um, element.

Um, but at the same time, you know, when you're weighing it up against budget, then

you might want to go for a combined mark or just filing maybe just for the brand

name, if that's the main thing we'll use.

And also if you're planning on changing your logo image or you

might be updating it along the way, then you probably wouldn't

want to file for that until you've definitely got that sort of finalized.

Then also that you would be using it for the foreseeable future so that you don't

have to then keep sort of, you know, like refiling down the line for the logo.

That's really helpful.

Thank you.

So once you have some protection in place, is that enough?

Can we just sit back and relax now?

Or do we need to continually monitor?

Um, yeah.

What, what do we ne do next kirsty?

Mm-hmm.

So in terms of, um, having a registration, I mean, that's great.

You know, if you've managed to obtain a trademark registration, then that

gives you, um, the right to be able to, for example, prevent another business

or individual from using an identical or a confusingly similar brand name

or logo where it covers off identical clause, similar goods and services.

So that's what the registration gives you the right to do.

So you could, for example, um, send a cease and desist letter to prevent

someone using, um, say the same brand name in commerce, where they're

covering overlapping goods and services.

Or it could be that you could file an opposition against a new application

because you've seen, you know, that maybe again, the identical brand name's

coming through and it covers, um, similar maybe goods to what you are covering.

Um, so it's, it's good in terms of, um, giving you those rights now.

How you can see whether, you know, like there's a new application

with a, a conflicting brand name.

Um, the UK IPO is good in that it does, um, basically an examination

phase do, um, the examiner does their own search and they look for, um,

identical, similar existing marks.

And what they do is they'll notify those existing owners, you know, of this new

application unless the applicant can successfully argue then that the marks

are, are basically dissimilar, all the goods and services don't um, overlap

in terms of being identical, similar.

So you could be notified by the UK IPO you know, of a new application coming

through, but that's no guarantee.

Now, like in terms of the search that they do, um, it's not sort of a hundred

percent, um, for proof, so to speak.

Um, so you can also as a separate, um, action, set up, um, a monitoring or

watching service, and that can be done, you know, like through professional help.

So, for example, I help businesses with, um, reporting out, you know,

like a watching service every month as to what's coming through the

system, maybe application wise.

Or you could be monitoring online in terms of what's actually being used,

um, how the brand name that you've got, you know, is it being used out

there, um, by other parties when they, when they shouldn't be using it?

Is anyone else using the same name?

Um, is there any sort of conflict in terms of the way that your brand name

might be being used by another business?

Um, so there's certainly ways, you know, you could monitor and watch, um, or you

could do your own manual checking as well.

You know, depending on maybe looking at the UK register and

putting in, for example, your brand name and seeing what comes out.

But, um, I mean I definitely, um, sort of recommend getting

professional advice where possible.

Um, just so you are covering off, you know, all the sort of relevant angles.

That's really good advice.

Thank you.

Because I think a lot of us would be really tempted to say, well, I've

registered and I'm, I'm protected.

And then leave it at that.

Um, and then perhaps you only find out something goes wrong

when something really goes wrong.

And, and let's talk a little bit about that actually Kirsty, because

something I've seen, um, I've seen a few instances of this on social media.

I actually had a lady on, I, come on my podcast, who this has happened to.

Um, and the thing I wanted to talk about is when someone sort of copies, whether

it's your products, your branding, um, so I've seen a few stories you

probably have about bigger brands, maybe copying something that's the

work of an individual or a small brand.

What do you do when that happens to you?

What steps would you advice someone takes?

Yeah, so I mean, it can depend as to what is actually being done.

Um, so for example, um, on the trademark side, you know, if you can see that

maybe someone's copied your logo, um, and you've got that registered, um, then there

would be the option to, um, basically contact, um, that business or individual

to let them know about your registered trademark rights and that you've

seen, you know, that they're basically using this logo in commerce and it's

conflicting with your registered right.

Um, and that you're giving them the opportunity to basically

either stop using, um, or for example, they file an application

to then withdraw that application.

Otherwise you're going take further action.

So it's whether you want to contact them yourself or again, I always recommend

where possible to seek professional advice, and that's on the basis that

it's always good to know and do a bit of research first as to what are

the extent of the rights of the other business or individual as in, you

know, sort of what are they doing and um, for example, maybe if it was a

similar logo, it's checking that they haven't been using that for a long time.

You know, like just independently and maybe their rights could actually be

earlier than your own, so that you wouldn't want to contact basically

another business only to find out actually they've got earlier registered

or, um, so-called unregistered rights.

Um, then you, for example, maybe like a brand name or a logo and

that they could then counter that.

So it's doing the research in the first place too.

It's like, right, what, what are the rights that each, um, business

has and when do they date back to?

If you can find out that information first and then that sort of helps

establish, you know, is this the right thing to do to contact them?

Um.

And there might be different ways to contact them.

So, um, there's sort of, you know, you could do it through, um, an

IP firm or through a, a firm like trademark where they're writing

on behalf, on your behalf and, um, setting out your registered rights.

Or it could be a business to business contact, um, and just, um, sort of taking

a bit of a softer approach, so to speak.

And, um, trying to sort of give them the chance, you know, to, to stop

doing what the, what they're doing before then taking any further action.

And I think it depends on who the businesses are, um, you know, like what

size they are, um, what they're doing.

And as to, you know, like deciding which route might be best to go down.

That makes sense.

Thank you.

And what about for copyright issues?

Would that be the same kind of process?

So for copyright, um, again, um, definitely doing

that sort of research piece.

It's, you know, what is being copied, if anything.

Um, then maybe, you know, for example, you've got a website and um, you've

got certain materials like written, um, texts, and there's big chunks, you

know, that have been copied, say by, I mean, hopefully not, you know, like by

another business you can suddenly see.

It's like, hang on a minute, that, that's all the text from my website.

Um, then again, you know, I'll be checking, it's like, when

was this other business set up?

Um, can you see, um, you know, like when the domain name was

registered, what, when this material might have been sort of taken over.

Um, and then again, it's, it's establishing that in the first place

to make sure, you know, you are right in basically contacting them and,

you know, this is your material.

And, um, you know, that you created something maybe like five years ago and,

um, you've obviously, um, sort of in the right to be able to then ask them to not

be copying and what has been created.

Um, and again, you could either do that, um, you know, like

through a professional firm.

Or you could do it business to business again.

Um, and sometimes, um, I think it's good to know who, you know, you are

getting in touch with and what that business is like and, um, what the

sort of outcome of that might be.

Because, you know, as you've seen from some of the bigger cases, you know, like

the m and s and, and, and even this Percy Pigs matter that's come up this week

with this ice cream that, um, you know, sometimes you have to think as well about,

um, sort of publicity and for example, if you send a cease and desist letter, is

that going to end up in the public domain?

Could there be some sort of negative publicity now around, depending on

how you contact a, another business?

But at the same time, it's like that absolute importance of

you've, um, basically created something which has copyright.

You are then, um, within your right to protect that work.

And obviously you don't want that being sort of copied and disseminated, you

know, like throughout the internet without your, um, permission.

Um, so yeah, it's, um, it can be a sort of tricky one, you know, like to work out the

best strategy and that's why again, you know, going sort of via a, a professional

firm can be a good option where budget's available, just because then they can

suggest, you know, like the different options and what might be the best route.

That makes sense.

Thank you.

Yeah, I feel, I feel like getting professional advice is

key here actually, because it seems really tricky to navigate.

Um, and, and you might possibly say the same to my next question, which is, what

do you do if the opposite happens and somebody contacts you and says, you've

infringed on my copyright or my trademark?

Or let, let's assume it's copyright because let's, let's say that we've all

done our checks before we've registered the trademark, and that's all fine.

If a company comes to you and says, actually, you've

infringed upon our copyright.

Um, we sell a t-shirt that looks like this, and now you are selling

a t-shirt that looks like this, what do you do if that happens?

Um, yeah, so if it was like the, the sort of design drawing,

you know, like on, on a t-shirt or, um, maybe like copied a logo that, you know,

had copyright protection in it then I would definitely in that way round, um,

I think where possible, and again, where budget allows seeking some professional

advice first off, would be important because it would be to establish are you

actually, um, infringing that copyright?

Um, you know, is there an issue at all here?

Or if not, can you then basically push back and say, you know, you've

taken legal advice and actually this isn't copyright infringement and

you know, you're not going to be stopping doing what you are doing.

Um, on the other hand, you know, if there is a conflict and the advice is,

you know, this, this could potentially be an issue in terms of infringement,

um, then you might want to think about, um, whether there's any amendments,

for example, you could make in terms of like a design drawing or a logo or maybe

coming up with something new, um, um, um.

Worst case scenario, you know, like having to withdraw maybe certain products.

Um, but again, I think where you can, it's good to get that advice because if

you sort of rush in and reply and, um, you know, without maybe like knowing

the facts, then it could potentially be detrimental as to, you know, the

sort of escalation or, or the outcome.

Um, so yeah, again, we're possible advice.

And do we need to really panic if this happens?

Are we going to get massive fines or, or anything like that?

Usually I would say, um, try not to panic, you know, if you

received a cease and desist letter, um, normally it's a, a pretty sort of

standard things, you know, that, that IP lawyers might do, you know, in terms

of, um, on, on behalf of their client.

Um, as an initial action, sending the cease and desist letter out, um, normally

there's a period of time given to maybe like withdraw, um, an application if

that's what you filed or, you know, to stop using commerce as a worst case

scenario, um, within, within a certain period of time, but also within that

period of time that you could seek advice and then sort of get a reply sent.

Um, you know, maybe like countering what they've said.

Um, usually, um, most businesses are not looking for a big fight or,

you know, like, as a, a court action would be an absolute last resort,

um, and worst case scenario normally.

Most disputes don't actually come, you know, like to a court act.

And normally, hopefully there'd be a way to try and resolve the matter.

Um, for example, um, if there's any sort of commercial differences between parties,

sometimes things can be resolved on the basis of those commercial differences,

or there might be a compromise position where you might agree, for example on

the trademark side, maybe to use a, a logo or brand name in a specific form.

Um, not use, um, you know, like sort of form or stylization

that the other business has.

Um, and different things that could be agreed upon in what you'd call a

coexistence agreement so that parties, you know, like in coexist side by side, but

maybe there's some restrictions on what you are doing depending on who's got the

stronger and earlier rights, so to speak.

Um, so there's definitely ways, you know, to um, hopefully maybe have

a friendly settlement if there's any room for that or, you know, to

withdraw, um, an application or stop using in commerce if you have to.

Um, and, um, it depends, you know, like in terms of who the other business

is as to whether they um, now for example, they might ask sometimes for

their legal fees to be covered and, um, um, any sort of items that have

already been sold to be withdrawn and, um, you know, they might sort of ask

for certain conditions surrounding, um, resolving like a cease and desist.

Um, but hopefully, you know, these sort of things are, um, the sort of the worst case

scenario and in definitely the court case would be the absolute worst case scenario.

Okay.

Yeah.

So in most cases, hopefully it'll all work out one way or another.

Thank you.

Well, the main message I'm getting is don't panic, so that's good.

So nobody panic.

Okay, thank you Kirsty.

I've just got a few more questions before we finish up.

Um, my next one didn't, I wasn't really sure where to fit this in.

I'm going to ask you now at the end if that's ok.

So often, um, we all see little circles, you know, in text and there's either

a TM in a circle or an R in a circle.

Could you please explain, um, what these actually mean?

I'm guessing TM is trademark, but, um, I'll let you tell me,

I don't know what R stands for.

Would you mind letting us know what these are, um, and

when they can be used, please?

Yes, of course.

And this is like a really good thing to cover, um, because I think a lot

of businesses and, um, the people out there, you know, like are still

wondering what are these symbols mean.

So in terms of the R in a circle, the R means registered, and you can use the

R in a circle when, for example, you have a trademark registration in place.

So in the UK, once you have that registration, you could be using the R in

a circle next to your brand name or logo, depending on what you've had registered.

Um, and you basically can't use the R in a circle if you don't, don't have

that registration, um, in place yet.

Um, so it's actually would be, um, you know, like a legal requirement

to only use it, you know, once you've had the registration.

Whereas the TM, which means trademark symbol.

That can be used at any time, um, next to your brand name or logo.

So even if you haven't filed a trademark application, you could

still, for example, be using the TM in a circle, or if you've got an

application in place, you could use it.

Or even if you've got a registration, you might opt to use the TM in a

circle rather than the R in a circle.

And that might be, um, for example, in cases where your, um, maybe like,

um, selling products in different markets, maybe let's say like the

UK and then across the EU, and you don't have trademark registrations

in place in certain countries.

So when you have your packaging, it might be easier just to use the TM in a circle

across those markets because um, then that doesn't, um, have any issues, you know,

like in terms of using the R in a circle where you don't have registrations yet.

The other thing I would say is, um, the rules can vary slightly depending

on the countries of interest.

So it's always good to check, you know, like locally outside of the UK

as to what those, um, rules might be.

Um, but in the UK anyway, it's um, more easygoing in terms of the T in the circle

and then obviously only using the Rs in circles once you have a registration.

That makes sense.

Thank you.

And I guess if you're not sure, again, this is another area you can get some

professional advice on if you're not sure which you should be using where.

Oh, thank you so much Kirsty.

So I've got one final question to end on, if that's okay.

Which is, what is your number one piece of advice when it comes to

protecting your intellectual property?

So what's the one thing you want people to, um, take away from this?

Um, yeah, I would just say, um, well, just a couple of things.

That's fine.

If that's okay.

But one of them would be, um, to do your research at the beginning as

to, you know, depending on what the IP is, so if it's, um, a trademark

that you want to try and register.

Is your brand name or logo, um, distinctive enough to

register in the first place?

Trying not to opt for descriptive terms where possible.

So coming up, you know, with an invented brand name if possible.

Um, something unusual that would stand out and be unique so that you have that

biggest bubble of protection possible, basically surrounding your trademark.

Um, and also, um, making sure where, where budget allows to do that, searching

before you file an application or before you start using in commerce to

try and make sure you're not infringing anybody else's registered rights or

that there could be any, um, passing off issues in terms of use of a brand

name over time where goodwill's been built up, for example, in the UK.

Um, and then the same, you know, with patents as well is just making sure, you

know, um, an invention for example is patented people in the first place before

you would then part a paten application doing your freedom to operate search

before filing as well where budget allows.

Um, and then the same on the design side as well, just making sure that it,

um, fits the criteria in terms of being new and having individual character

and doing any searching where you can.

Um, so it basically puts you in a good position, you know, before you start

doing any filings and, um, to, to sort of help you with the, um, obtaining rights,

but also not wasting money, you know, on finding applications where you might

not be able to obtain the registration.

That's really helpful.

Thank you so much, and thank you for everything that you've shared with us.

It's been really useful.

Thank you.

It's been brilliant talking to you.

Thank you so much for listening right

to the end of this episode.

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on my website, vicki weinberg.com.

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