"It is rare for a man to have only one addiction."

According to Dr Ron Johnson, addictions start as something that is "good" for us but easily become something that we rely upon for relief or momentary happiness. In this episode, you'll learn the differences between chemical and behavioural addictions, why and how we become addicted, the work required to avoid or end addictions, and the main reasons why men are often susceptible to addiction.

Dr. Ron Johnson is a psychologist and psychotherapist with over 50 years of experience working with men. His latest book, 'Balls: Men Finding Courage with Words, Work, Wine, and Women', talks about how men can truly mature by finding, valuing, and expressing themselves and, ultimately, find success in all areas of their lives.

If you find value in this conversation, please share it or leave a review and consider checking out Dr Ron's book with the links below.

Find Dr Ron Johnson Here:

Website: MidlandsPsychological.com

Facebook: @MidlandsPsychological

Instagram: @MidlandsPsychological

YouTube: @MidlandsPsychological

Book: 'Balls: Men Finding Courage with Words, Work, Wine, and Women': pages.midlandspsychological.com/balls

Find The Akkeri Here:

Website: TheAkkeri.com

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YouTube: YouTube.com/theakkeri

So an addiction starts with a good thing that is serving me, and then it moves into a habit. Then there's a slippery slope. I will do this thing when I'm not happy. Ideally, the brain is being used by the mind.

But what happens here is the brain starts telling the mind what you should do. It's like, you're not happy. Why don't you try gambling? That'll make you happy.

Extroverted people tend to be addicted to things where there are other people around. Introverted people tend to be addicted to something where they are alone. And by the way, it's rare that a man doesn't have more than one addiction.

You are listening to the Akkeri Podcast, the show about men and masculinities, the challenges that modern men face, and how to chart a better way forward. I'm your host, Matt Howlett, mental health coach and founder of the Akkeri. In this episode, I'm talking with psychologist and author Dr.

Ron Johnson about the third of four main topics in his recently released book entitled Man Finding Courage with Words, Work, Wine, and Women.

Wine is a pseudonym for addictions, and according to Ron, chemical or behavioral addictions are common among men, and it's rare that a man has only one.

We talk about the psychology of addiction, the main reasons why we find ourselves in them, how to get out of them, and why Ron thinks we mostly can't avoid them.

If you find this conversation helpful, I'd encourage you to check out Ron's book, Balls, which you can get on Amazon or through the links in the show notes. Well, Dr. Ron Johnson from Midland Psychological Associates, welcome back. This is round three of four for your new book, Balls.

Men Finding Courage with Words, Work, Wine, and Women. Every time I say that title, I think I'm gonna get the order wrong. Every single time. But I. I think I'm doing all right.

We are going to talk about the topic of wine today, which is a pseudonym for addictions. So just to get us started off, what does it look like in general for men to find courage with wine?

Why is that part of this book and part of that maturation process that you talk about in Balls?

Pretty importantly, Matt, you know, and maybe our audience knows that our orientation towards psychology is not pathology, not what's wrong, not diagnosing, including, not oriented towards addictions. Okay, so we look at, you know, who somebody is, not what's wrong with them. So that's just the backdrop here.

So when we're looking at addictions here, my take on addictions is they always start as A good thing. Now, what does that mean? It means this. I find something that makes me feel happy in some way or another.

This is good for me to find something that could be eating or drinking or. Or whatever I might be doing, maybe even gambling, other kinds of things that are potentially addictive. So that. That's where it starts.

Okay, so an addiction starts with a good thing that is serving me, and then it moves into a habit, which is still probably largely good. I mean, if. If I get addicted, say, to working out, so I.

I have a habit of working out three, four days a week or whatever, that's a fine habit to have. Then there's a slippery slope from first good for me and then habit for me, and then what I call a go to.

The go to means I will do this thing when I'm not happy, or this thing will make me happy.

Addictionologists, which I am certainly not, say that one of the ingredients of an addiction is that you try to overcome it, and you are not successful with that. Secondly, you have to do more of this thing to get the same amount of pleasure. And thirdly, you hide it.

So what happens here with an addiction starts as a good thing becomes a habit, then it's a go to, and then I have to do more and more of it. And that's what an addiction really is.

So the finding courage part is mainly about men addressing this general situation, whether they have an addiction or not. Being aware of that slippery slope, I suppose, yes.

And I'm surprised at the number of men that respond positively to that.

When I say, you can be addicted to behavioral things, you can be addicted to chemical things, and I say, you can be addicted to marijuana, you can be addicted to sex, you can be addicted to gambling, to eating. And one guy said, yeah, I'm addicted to all of those. So that is very often the case, because an addiction there starts as something good.

So the brain thinks, this is good for me, right? This will make you happy. And so that's why we men tend to fall into some kind of an addiction.

And by the way, addiction is one of the three things that erupt out of men's not finding courage with who they are and being who they are. And that is avoidance, anger, addiction, and then they all come from some kind of anxiety.

So when we're talking about addiction here, we're not just talking about, this is a bad thing. I need to cure. This is something I really need to understand and to understand that this is a good thing to start with.

And ultimately, I have to have a Manage. I have to be able to manage this.

I'm curious, though, when you say it's a good thing to start with, would you think that all things that lead to addiction are necessarily good to start with? Because obviously, what comes to mind is drugs, for me, like, harder drugs.

Well, in this way, harder drugs. For instance, I had a surgical procedure once, and I had some Vicodin or some opiate.

Sure.

And this is the first time I've ever had anything like that. And I couldn't believe how happy I was. It's like, wow, I didn't. It didn't even occur to me.

And when Deb was driving me home, it's like, why am I feeling so good? And I realized, oh, my goodness. So to feel happy is not a bad thing.

Right.

We use opiates all the time, and they can be very, very profitable. But of course, they're tremendously addictive.

Right.

So, yes, I would say, roughly, addictions always start with something that's good.

Right? Yeah. The.

The end result, I suppose, is good, because I wouldn't classify something like a street drug like methamphetamine, as something necessarily good. But that end result, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with feeling happy, like you said. But that is an odd way of.

Of getting there, wouldn't you say?

Yes. Yeah, I would say. But that person on the street that's using meth has gone through several other things before he or she got to that place.

Likely. Yeah.

So, yeah. So, I mean, it's like it always started with, this person is not happy in some way or another.

Abused childhood, who knows what, and then he found a way out. It's like, oh, my goodness, this is it. This makes me happy.

Yeah.

Not knowing that this is addictive.

Yeah. Not knowing that this is addictive. What does that process look like?

Because I think, well, it's probably safe to assume that the majority of men don't realize that they are walking into an addiction, that an addiction is being created. Obviously, there's a lot going on there physiologically. But what does that process look like? How long does it generally take? Is it quicker in.

In some cases, what it. When it's like behavioral versus chemical, you.

Know, it depends on the effects of it. An addicted person, somebody who is addicted to something, does not just get addicted to it. He. He starts enjoying what he's doing.

For instance, you can be addicted to eating. Now, I have to eat as eating is pleasurable. But then when the brain gets involved, the brain basically says, eat more. You'll feel better.

Eat More carbohydrates and you will feel better.

What happens here in a man's position here is I'm going to start whatever this is, not thinking where it's going to go, but just this makes me feel good. And with eating or working out or playing or all the other kinds of positive things we do.

Yeah. How do we avoid that? I think a lot of men would slide into addiction unknowingly, you know what I mean?

And just wake up realizing one day, oh, this is not good for me. Oh, I need to stop this. Right.

At what point do or how does a man realize, even if he is self aware and mature, how does he realize, like he's becoming addicted to something. Take work for example. Right. I think it's very easy for men to be addicted to work because they can see it as a generally a good thing.

They're providing for themselves, for their family, they're doing good work in the world, but yet they're working, you know, 60, 70 hours a week. They don't have a social life. You know, we talked about that in the, in the last episode. So how does a man kind of fend that off?

He doesn't. He has to find it post hoc, which the Latin term means after the fact.

He has to realize, okay, these things are happening in my life, I'm hiding this, I need more of it. And it's affecting the external part of my life. So quite simply, if I'm addicted to food, I gain weight.

If I'm addicted to some kind of sexual activity, I'm never satisfied. And that is dominating my thinking. If I'm addicted to gambling, I'm losing more money. So you have to look at the effect of it.

You don't look at this as an addiction. Because see, the problem here, Matt, is that inside of me I know and feel this is a good thing.

This is a good thing to drink alcohol or gamble or whatever. And yes, it is a good thing. It's a pleasurable thing. That's the difficulty.

So you have to realize it after the fact and see some part of your life is falling apart. Could be relational. Very often the key factor is are you hiding it? If you are hiding it, then you are ashamed of it.

And then you realize that there's something not right about this. You may not even call it an addiction.

Right.

Wouldn't it be fair to say as well, though, if there's feelings that are being hidden, you know, thoughts that you're trying to push aside, wouldn't that be an indicator that you could Be at least susceptible to addiction.

Oh, yes. Yes. If you're trying to push something away instead of recognizing what this is, there's never anything wrong with a thought.

There's never anything wrong with a feeling. There's never anything wrong with an emotion. What's wrong is the effect of those three things.

Right.

What I say, what I do when I'm emotional.

Right.

So for the most part, we slide into addiction when we are trying to escape, when we were trying to find happiness elsewhere, when our current situations are not that. Yes.

So, I mean, again, it starts with, this is fun. I can enjoy this gambling or whatever it might be. And that's a part of my. I've never gambled, so I can't say that that's ever been fun for me.

But it is for some people. It's fun. And many, many people gamble, and that's an enjoyable part of life, and they walk away. I'm no guy say, well, I'm gonna go out and in.

In America here, because it's so dominant by Native Americans, I'm gonna go out and give the Indians a hundred dollars, which means he's just gonna go out and spend a hundred dollars in gamble and probably lose. That's not a problem. That's not an addiction. That's just like, okay, I'm gonna spend a hundred dollars on a good meal.

No, I'm gonna go spend a hundred dollars, you know, hitting buttons like, you know, it's like, that doesn't make sense to me. But it makes sense to him.

Right. Because that's fun for him. Whereas, like, basketball is fun for you. Working out.

I don't think you're ever going to become addicted to working out because you never.

Yes, you got that right.

Right. So fundamentally, it's something that is good for you. Something that feels good is. Is, you know, generally bring a thing that brings about happiness.

Yes. And by the way, it's rare that a man doesn't have more than one addiction.

If you're addicted to something, it's not like you have an addictive personality. I don't think that's true. People talk about that, but I don't think that's the truth.

The truth is that you are probably a very capable person and have found these two or three ways of enjoying life in some way or another. Like some people. I know a guy that goes golf. Golfing is good.

He's really good at golfing, but he always smokes pot, money's out there, and he always comes home, you know, a little bit high and As a result of that, he gets into difficulty with his wife because his wife doesn't like that he smokes pot. So it's not the pot smoking here. It's the whole, am I hiding it?

Right.

Can you speak to what is going on physiologically just for a second, to help guys and anybody who's listening understand what exactly is going on here? Because it's not simply just. It's not simply just a decision that you're making. You want to be happy, so you go and do X, Y, Z.

Right? Exactly. What's happening is this. We talk about the difference between mind and brain. Brain is a machine.

It's a remarkable machine, but it is a machine and it is stupid. It is very capable, like this machine that we're talking to right in front of us. This is a brilliant machine, but this machine is stupid.

This machine doesn't know me, doesn't care about me at all. I'm using the machine. Thank goodness we have this machine. So our mind, you know, is. Is.

Uses the machine to actually think and to feel and to act in some way or another. So if. If the mind says, let's.

I'm going to do such and such, and it's pleasurable, the brain realizes that and sort of remembers, oh, you will be happy if you drink, if you gamble, if you're promiscuous or whatever it happens to be. So it's.

We have a mind brain, we call it, you know, mind over matter phenomenon here, where ideally the brain, the machine, is being used by the mind. But what happens here is the brain starts telling the mind what you should do. It's like, you're not happy. Why don't you try gambling?

That'll make you happy. Oh, okay. So the brain is in charge and the brain is stupid.

Right.

Brain doesn't know, if I gamble, I'm going to lose a lot of money. If I drink too much, I'm going to be harmful.

Right. Chemically, this is mainly about dopamine.

It is. And the interesting that you asked that there are two operations here. With pleasure.

There was a very interesting article written by an addictionologist that I just read, an article that he read years ago, and I've had some contact with him. He teaches at University of Michigan, and he talked about liking and looking for something. He said those are two different operations.

For instance, if you talk to smokers, you will see that they look forward to smoking. So again, I've never smoked, so I don't know what that is, but I can look forward to playing basketball.

I can look forward to eating or making love or whatever. I'm looking forward to something great. But the activity is chemical. That's quite different. The activity of pleasure is chemical.

And very often smokers and other people will say, I so much look forward to it, but I don't enjoy the process.

Well, you're addicted then, chemically with dopamine, predominantly, but you're not actually enjoying the electrical charges that happen in your brain when you're actually enjoying the moment of what you're doing. So people look forward to gambling more than they actually enjoy the gambling itself. So it's chemical. But why is what's happening here?

You know, the brain says, you're not happy. You can do this. You get charged up with dopamine. It's like, oh, I'm looking forward to doing this thing.

And then you engage in, and it's like, well, this isn't happy, so I'll do more of it.

Right.

When I'm looking at something that's addictive, that is taking over my life, that's demanding more attention, more money, or more effort than I wanted to do, I have to discipline myself. And what does that mean? I have to do what I don't want to do to get to where I do want to be.

Right.

That's why I work out. I work out, and I discipline myself to work out. Very often. I really don't want to do this. I'm going to do this even though I don't want to do it.

And within moments or a minute or two that don't want to do it disappears. But that's discipline. That's not forcing myself. That's just admitting I don't want to do this thing.

Right.

I did a blog on this recently about, you know, I don't want to do it, which is an important factor to get a handle on. You know, I don't want, if I'm addicted to, say, gambling, I don't want to give up gambling. I get that you don't.

There's nothing wrong with you that you don't want to because it's a pleasurable thing.

Yeah.

So you are looking to do something here that you want to get to, but on the way, you have to do a lot of what you don't want to do. That's discipline. That's not punishment. That's not threat, that's not anger.

Yeah. Doing a lot of what you don't want to do is the way out of an addictive situation or an addiction itself. What does that practically look like?

I'm thinking of things that I would not want to do. And how do I make myself do them? Well, I generally set up.

What would I call them, I suppose, like bonuses, fun things connected to the thing that I don't want to do. Right. So if there's a day that I particularly don't want to do a certain work task, well, I always enjoy starting work with like an iced coffee.

Right. So I always have something like that connected to the thing that would help me do the thing that I don't want to do in order to get the thing that I.

You know what I mean? Like pairing it with something that I do enjoy.

Very helpful. I think the, the foundation, however, is admitting that you don't want to do it.

Right.

Because if I admit that I don't want to do it, it sounds like I'm lazy or stupid or irresponsible. Not true. I just don't. In my case, I don't want to work out. That doesn't make me sloppy. It just. This is not.

And there are people that just truly love to work out. I just talked to somebody the other day. Works out every day, seven days a week, two hours a day, sometimes four. Okay, now that's wonderful.

Except he doesn't have anything else in his life. That is all he does. He does nothing else. He works out, and then he recovers from working out and he wants to do it. I don't want to do it.

So I do it because this is a good thing for me. So giving up something is not like, okay, I'm going to be abstinent from this. I'm not going to do any of this again. No, that's not going to work.

It's like, okay, I really want to drink. I'm going to choose not to drink, and I'm going to hate it because I would feel so much better if I drank.

In fact, by the way, you might not actually feel better, you might feel worse, but you, you admit to that, and that sets you on a page. Okay. He, she, they, it are not telling me what I have to do. I don't want to do this. And then we go to stage two.

It's about you say, all right, if I'm going to do this, you know, how can I pair that with something that I really enjoy? Yeah, pair that afterwards. You know, I'm going to have a sandwich or I'm going to go for a walk, or I'm going to do something I want to do.

Yeah.

Reward is probably the word that I should have Used, but just in staying with stage one, as you call it, how is that helpful, to simply admit that you don't want to do it? I mean, I can admit that I don't want to, you know, get up early.

I've tried to change my workout routine myself here over the past while because we picked up some workout equipment here for the house. And it's just been a change since, you know, got married, moved into this place.

And so I'm trying to get up in the morning, whereas I used to work out midday just before lunch. And I'm more awake. I find that easier to do. And I generally do enjoy it. I don't want to do it in the morning.

So how does that actually help me to admit that? Because I could admit that all morning and just roll over and fall back to sleep just easily.

Well, what you're saying here is sometimes when you start with I don't want to do this, you can think through, okay, I don't want to do this in the morning, so I'll do it in the afternoon. Of course there's a danger there, as I'll do it in the afternoon. The afternoon comes, I'm busy, I'll do it tomorrow morning.

So it's a matter here of being honest with who you are. And in balls, we make a real effort. You have to be honest with yourself. And to be honest with yourself starts with I don't want to do it.

And to be honest with yourself is I will do it this afternoon. And then you get to the afternoon and you don't want to do it. Still, you admit to that.

This is what happens in that, that, that, that then it takes the, what we call the locus of control. Who's in control? He, they, she, stuff, even, you know, it's good for my body. Is that in control or am I in control here?

And if I'm in control and I admit I don't want to do it, that will set me on a path to be able to do it now, to do it later, to have somebody else do it. But to be honest with myself, that's the real key. If I don't want to work out for six days in a row. And I keep saying I don't want to work out. I'm.

I've just started. That's the foundation. But I haven't taken step two. Step two is doing what you don't want to do.

And by the way, maybe in the midst of it, hating it and then not liking it and then tolerating it and Then may it might even be you actually began to enjoy this. I feel better. I mean, I've had alcohol saying, you know, I slowly got away from alcohol, and I'm surprised at how good I feel.

I haven't ever felt this kind of good before. I felt good that was chemical.

Maybe you could speak to the different types of addictions then for a moment. Because you mentioned chemical. What about behavioral? I mean, there's obvious differences between the two.

There are differences. The. The chemical and the electrical meaning. Chemical like wanting and chemical liking. That those are, you know, always operative.

And so they're behavioral addictions, which is what I do in their chemical addictions. Chemical addictions are alcohol and drugs. We refer to it as aota, alcohol or other drugs. You know, addiction. All right, that's.

That's primarily what we think about. So that, by the way, includes anything that I ingest, which clearly would then include eating. So eating is a chemical addiction.

Not wrong, because I have to eat. So all right, then the behavioral addictions. Behavioral is what I do with my life.

So that would include some kind of excessive sexuality, gambling, working, playing, working out. Almost anything on God's green earth can become addictive behaviorally. And it always starts with something that I enjoy.

So you mentioned post hoc is the main way that we realize this addiction has been formed. How do you get out of that? How do you end addiction? How do you become someone who can't avoid that and isn't addicted?

I think again, it's what we used to say in the 60s. It's a name it and claim it. If I can call it something, then I know what it is.

And even I think it's dangerous to use the word addiction too easily because it sounds like there's something wrong with me. Rather, if we can kind of get around that and find some kind of phraseology, it's like, this is not good for me.

This is good, but it's not good for me. This is good to some degree, but it's not good to the degree that I'm doing.

So you get some kind of intellectual, cognitive understanding of what's going on with you with this whole addictive process. Just challenging it is usually unsuccessful. I'm not an AA fan. Particularly AA has helped alcohol anomalous millions, tens of millions of people.

It, by the way, has also harmed about that number of people. Because it doesn't work to say, hi, my name's Ron, I'm an alcoholic.

But Matt, it has helped millions of people to say, hi, my name's Ron, I'm an alcoholic. That's the naming it and claiming it and it works to call what it is.

I think a better way, instead of saying I'm addicted to is this is taking too much of my life. This is not really ultimately making me happy. This is something that in its origin was good and now is no longer good.

And in fact, now is harmful to me and probably to those around me. I think this is the whole key. Is what you said sometime earlier in our conversation here is, am I aware of what's going on?

Am I aware that I'm always looking to drink more? Am I aware that when I come home and I. I've been working all day long, I fall asleep and I don't have a conversation with somebody? Am I aware of.

Of that? And that's the post hoc being aware of it.

I don't think you can prevent addictions so much as you can really cope with them when they begin to happen, which means they start taking over part of your life.

Yeah, I suppose it would be difficult not simply to be aware of your actions and your thoughts, but to recognize that what you are doing or thinking is leading you into something that is an addiction.

And again, it's taking a larger piece of your life instead of a small piece of the pie. It's taking a larger piece of the pie. So you just look at what do we have here?

What are the most common addictions that you see among men through your practice?

Well, certainly alcohol is the most predominant one. But of course, we're living in an alcohol based state. You know, we. Our baseball team is the Brewers.

Right.

You know, and the data is Wisconsin, among others, is really inclined towards a good deal of alcoholism. So alcohol is certainly the first thing that comes to mind. Actually, interestingly, the second very often is play.

I see people who work to a fault and they're working like you said, 80, 90 hours a week and they don't have the rest of their life. But I see many other people who are playing in some way or another doesn't mean playing baseball.

More often than not, it means they're playing video games or they're doing something alone playing. And they are. It's not. Play is a very important part of life.

Play takes me away from the responsibilities of life and allows me to enjoy the moment that I'm away from. That's, that's what play should be. It should not have ultimate meaning. It has present meaning.

So that's the second addiction that I actually see with people. First chemical, primarily alcohol, and then secondly play and very often play can lead to other alcohol and other chemical addictions.

So it's like, oh, I'm going to play. So that means I'm just going to get drunk on Friday night pretty much, and then I get drunk on Wednesday night. And so that's just quote, playing.

Well, unfortunately, it's a mixture of playing in a chemical addiction.

That one's interesting to me specifically, I'm thinking about video games because you often do that somewhat alone. You, you might team up with friends online. Have you come across that much at all? Have you read much about that?

A great deal.

Okay.

And of course, I wasn't really raised with video games, so it was, was not part of my growing up. But I, I have talked.

Just yesterday I talked to somebody who, who is now largely out of it, but he came to me some time ago and he said, well, this, this week I spent 120 hours gaming. Wow, 120 hours gaming. That means almost every waking hour of his day was gaming.

Yeah, I could understand that if you're like competitively doing that, because again, when I learned about that a couple years ago, that that is its own thing, that there are competitive gamers. That's their job, you know what I mean? They do that and make a living out of that. And large sums of money for the ones that are very good.

Rise to the top. But I specifically thought about that as you were talking, because of that solitary aspect, you know what I mean?

There's so much talk when it comes to politics in the States about the incel community. These young men who feel like they're. They're involuntarily celibate, they're never going to find a woman.

And they eventually, well, some of them come to be angry at women.

And there's a lot of talk I've heard recently about, I don't mean to get political, just quickly I'll mention it, that Trump was bringing this guy, Andrew Tate, was trying to help him get out of some legal trouble that he was having in, I believe, Romania, related to some charges there. And anyways, long story short, the article was suggesting that he's trying to speak to that demographic through this man, Andrew Tate. Right.

And maybe others like him to grab those people, to pull them into his camp, as if they aren't already. But that type of addiction, it pushes you away from community to an extent.

It does. Video gaming and a good bit of addictions are much more inclined towards introverted people than they are to extroverted people.

Extroverted people tend to be Addicted to things where there are other people around. Introverted people tend to be addicted to something where they are alone.

That could be working out, or they could be gaming, or they could be just drinking alone. So that's not the whole picture here. But what you said is really important here. And I'm doing it alone. I'm in control of it now.

I think it's reasonable to say I'm not the first one. There's nothing wrong with masturbation, but the interesting fact is for most men, that is their primary sexual outlet, masturbation.

And of course, usually associated with pornography, imaginary or real. Well, even that isn't so bad.

If it doesn't get worse, but then it gets worse, and then I would much rather have sex with myself than I would have sex with somebody else.

Right.

Then I'm in.

Then I'm in trouble because it's like, okay, again, there's nothing morally wrong with that, but there's something socially wrong, and ultimately there's something psychologically wrong. So if. If my addiction brings me into me and me only, I'm in trouble.

Yeah.

And that was kind of a part of my take on the role of technology and the conversation around social and emotional skills when I was doing, sorry, the Master's and studying the sense of belonging among young men. I believe technology is great. I believe it's a tool. But the tool can so often lead us to things that we don't even realize are happening.

And I don't necessarily refer to them as addictions, but for the man who is on his phone a lot or playing video games a lot, whatever it is that's taking him away from community.

You can create community online to an extent, but there's something quite different about being face to face with a person even like we are now, even though it's, you know, through the medium of video, there's a big difference between that and just sitting with a controller in your hand. And like you said, you're alone and you have control over pretty much everything that's going on. We don't have control.

Even right now, you know, even though this is over video, I, you know, you could say anything. I could lose train of thought. I could fumble my words, like.

And then, of course, we're facing humanity here being, yeah, you say something that I don't agree with, I say something you don't agree with. We discuss that. We see where that is. But if I'm playing a video game or if I'm just reading something, or I'm just frankly watching A podcast.

I'm just gathering information. I'm. I'm alone. I can. I'm in control. And so it's a matter of control. I need to be in control of myself. That's for sure. That's valuable.

I don't need to be in control of you. I need to be in control of my environment to some degree so I can protect myself.

But when people, especially introverted people, fall into something that is private, it will only increase in amount until it becomes overwhelming in some way or another.

Do you address that specific addiction in the same way that you would say, someone who overworks?

Yes. Oh, absolutely. I would address that. And the addressing would be, what's the effect of what you're doing? I may have mentioned. I don't know if you.

In the book or conversation I saw this lawyer came in to see me because his physician thought he might have Alzheimer's. I did a study on him, and he. He probably has some early dementia.

But the more important thing, the man is 75 years old, and he's working 70 to 80 hours a week. That is his life. And his wife said, well, he's a workaholic. Okay, we can maybe use that term, but what's going on here? He enjoys what he's doing.

He's good at what he's doing. He's serving humanity. We're gonna take that away from him. Oh, at the end of my report, he said, do not quit work. You need to be working.

And his wife said, what are you talking about here? You know, he should go to work. No, he can't do that. It's too. To who he is.

We have to find a way for him to slowly replace the value of work with the value essentially of social engagement, which after 75 years and being an intelligent and capable person, he doesn't know how to do. Because it's much harder to have a conversation than it is to be at the keyboard and to do my legal work.

Yeah. Yeah. So you would say that.

The same type of thing, to give the same suggestions, the same feedback to someone who has, say, someone who's considered them themselves an alcoholic versus a workaholic versus someone who just, you know. I believe you mentioned it previously in a conversation.

Someone who plays softball, like, five, six, seven nights a week and doesn't have much of a social life.

I would say the same thing. I would say this is a good thing. In fact, I said that to an alcoholic once. I said, alcohol is obviously the best thing in your life.

You say, what are you talking about? I lost my wife, I lost my job, I lost my house. How can it be the best thing?

Well, it's obviously better than your house and your wife, you know, and your job, because you're doing it. Well, that doesn't make sense. Well, it sort of does make sense if we can look at what's really going on here.

This is a good thing in your life and it's out of control. And now it's the central theme of your life. So it's a way to start to look at this rather than, hi, my name is Ron, I'm alcoholic.

Which again, works for many people to say, hi, my name's Ron. My life is disordered here. You know, I'm losing my relationship. I'm not really enjoying life. I don't enjoy my work. I don't whatever.

And so you look at the present phenomenon rather than the addiction itself. Instead of trying to cure the addiction, let's just look at the effect of what it has. When I'm work, when I'm on video games, 60 to 70 hours a week.

So how does the man replace the addiction with something that is healthy or even pull it back? Because you wouldn't necessarily have to stop the behavior. Take alcohol as an example.

You don't necessarily have to stop drinking, although I do believe that most want to. To stay away from it completely because it's too much of a risk, I suppose, too much of a temptation. But how do you do that?

How do you figure out that process of finding something new? Because you obviously have to replace it with something else, right? Like if you are unhappy, have to replace it, right?

Because your brain is going to say, you need to find happiness here. And if you're. If it's work or if it's alcohol, you're going to go there. So the trouble here is the brain is usually in command of the mind.

And so I talk to people about. We want to get your mind in control of your brain here. And your brain is not going to help you because your brain is stupid.

Your brain just knows you're not happy. This will make you happy. So that's the start. I have to be aware that I really don't want to give this thing up. This has been good for me.

This I can't see of anything else. So that's the matter of discipline. I think that's the starting point.

I have to realize I have to discipline myself against doing something that is pleasurable because in the long run, it's not good for me. And then secondly, slowly but surely Discover something else that replaces it. You can't just push in. Okay, this is what you should.

Why don't you just play more checkers? And that'll be helpful if you're going to give up alcohol. I can't say that to anybody.

Right.

But I can say you will find inside of you natural, healthy, valuable behavior or chemistry that will be good for you in the long run. You will find that. But you have to first take out this big elephant in the room that is dominating your life. And you don't want to give it up.

You want to have it gone. You don't want to give it up.

Right.

And then it erupts inside of you. So, yes, you have to replace it. But you can't do that externally. You can't ask, oh, what should I do? Should I, you know, go out and socialize more?

Should I join a volleyball. Volleyball class or whatever? Anything. Any of those. Yes, Matt.

Whenever I have given specific suggestions to people, they say, well, that doesn't seem like fun. Well, okay, I grant you that doesn't seem like fun. Maybe that's the wrong thing. What do you do? Well, I do such and such. And let's.

Let's look at what you do. Have you ever done biking? Yeah, I've done biking. I've always done it alone. Let's consider. Maybe you're doing biking in a biking group.

So you're looking at.

Well, it's a bit of exploration, but it goes back to that concept of being honest with yourself, figuring out more about yourself, more about what you like, and trying to test something out to see if it could replace whatever it is. XYZ that is addictive and that is harmful and taking up too much of your life.

Yes, and it is. Ultimately, you replace it, but it doesn't work structurally. You can't just push in something that you hope will be pleasurable for you.

It has to erupt inside. I mean, there are people who are really expert at something and they really enjoy it.

Say, I thought about checkers, but people that play chess, I mean, you know, the people that play chess actually work out. They work out physically so they can be more prepared when they're playing chess. How does that have. What does that have to do with chess playing?

You think that's all cognitive? No, it's not just cognitive. You have to be. Your body has to be involved because it's very exhausting, from what I understand.

Okay, I'm having trouble with that one. I can see that being mentally exhausting. I suppose you're Seated for extended periods of time. You would need a strong back and cord legs, I guess.

Who knows?

Who knows? I do not.

But it's more feeling that your body is safe and your body is not talking to your body is not terribly hungry, it's not aching, it's not bothered. So that's as much as I know about that. But I know that grandmaster chess players do work out.

Yeah, yeah, that part of it makes more sense. Feeling safe and strong and comfortable in your own body. That makes a lot of sense to me, just practically speaking for a minute.

What are some things that men could do on a day to day basis to start that process, whether they find themselves addicted or not, start that process of self discovery, being honest with yourself. What are the things that I'm doing that could lead to addiction? What are the things that I need to do to replace an addiction?

What does that, what does that look like? Because I think that is we need something to hold on to. We need a way to like a framework, you know what I mean? To work through, to work towards.

Yes, Eastern, and I'm not terribly familiar with this, but Eastern meaning Far East, Chinese and Japanese philosophy is there are four elements in life and they are working and playing and resting and relating all four of those things. Now we could add two or three or four. This, this depending on whoever might suggest it. Buddha, for instance, would be meditating.

And there are other ways of going about it. So I think a way of looking at, I'm addicted to something, it's taking too much of my life is let me look at these four things in my life.

Do I have relationships that are important? Do I actually have a set time or set place or activity where I can play? Am I working? We talked about that last time.

Am I doing something hopefully professionally and do I have time alone with myself where I just allow myself to think or to feel or to do neither of those things and just meditate. Now there are other ways of looking at it, but I think we're looking at a well rounded life.

And so to look at that very often, what's missing with most people play, you know, they say, well, I'm working and you know, I'm relating and I'm getting things done and paying my bills, but I'm not playing. Yeah, well that's, that's not important.

Well, that's absolutely important because play is an activity that I do that takes me away from the responsibilities of life and the play itself is not meaningful. It's the activity that gets my mind and soul around what I'm doing, whether I'm playing chess or I'm playing basketball.

You said work, play, rest and relate. Yes, I like that. Relate has its own category. It's. It's the fourth one. Not just three.

Right. It's the fourth one. It's relating. And what does that mean? That could be. I speak, that could be. I listen. That could be. I debate.

What it shouldn't ultimately be is. I argue that's not a relationship. Argument, by the way, is debate plus emotion.

You can do emotion or you can do information, but you can't do both of them at the same time. You do both of them at the same time, you have an argument. So relating is this very innocuous, undefined phenomenon.

What is happening when I'm relating to somebody? That means I'm developing a third entity in life. There's me, there's you, and now there's us. And to develop this us is a crucial factor in life.

And some people say it's the most important factor. I don't believe that. I believe it is a very important factor in life. People that we call with a temperament of lover, they look for connections.

All about life is connections. Well, good for you. That's how you look at life. That's not how I necessarily look at life, but that is an important part.

Relating, giving, taking, receiving. So often I see men in my office who don't know how to talk and don't know how to listen, predominantly about how they feel.

Yeah.

And that's relating.

Yeah. That would be a massive challenge.

If you can't talk about how you feel and express what you think, you're not going to have success in really almost any of these categories. Maybe. Except for play, I suppose you could play quite easily without talking very much.

Yes, you can.

Talking, though, is going to be, I would assume, one of the biggest factors in the next topic that we tackle. The big W in your book. Women.

Yes.

Yeah. What is it that makes women Just quickly, what is it makes women the big W out of the four of work, wine, words, women.

For what it's worth, at least 50%, if not more like 75% of the men that come to see me talk about the challenges that they have in the women in their lives. They're. They're married, their former marriage, their girlfriend, their former girlfriend. They're being alone. They don't.

They don't have anybody, and they want somebody in their life. So just as a backdrop. It's an important factor, I think, in all men's life. I just want to quickly just say, I'm not by any means an expert in lgbtq.

So I went set that aside.

So I may not be talking about gay people or trans people or whatever, but if we're talking about a heterosexual male, this business of relating to women has to do with the previous three things. It has to do with do I have a capacity to speak? That's words. Do I have a capacity to work? Am I producing? Am I feeling good with what I'm doing?

And thirdly here have I challenged the addictive things in my life?

And then I approach a woman with a sense of, I know who I am, and if I know who I am, then the task is to slowly but surely develop a vocabulary for saying, this is who I am. If I do that, I will be able to hear from her, this is who I am, as she speaks to me.

Right. Right. I'm very much looking forward to that. That's, I think, a conversation that could go in any different number of different directions.

Ron, thank you again for your time.

My pleasure.

Looking forward to the next one.

Take care.

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