In Episode 47 of “The United Methodist People Podcast,” Rev. Dr. Brad Miller engages in an in-depth conversation with three core leaders of The Room For All Coalition.  The Room For All Coalition was formed in the Indiana Annual Conference in 2019 as a response to decisions made at the 2019 General Conference which (RFA) considered destructive to the church by bringing harm to persons who identify as LGBTQ+ and their allies.

Alberto Hidalgo îs a layperson from the Broadway UMC in Indianapolis who became heartbroken when he saw the UMC make a decision that when against his passion regarding inclusivity in the church. He got involved with The Room for All Coalition and is was elected as a Jurisdictional delegate from the Indiana Annual Conference.

Rev. Mary Dicken is an ordained Deacon in the Indiana Conference of The United Methodist Church, currently serving at Meridian Street United Methodist Church in Indianapolis and previously serving churches throughout southern Indiana and in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. She is passionate about connecting the church with the hurts and hopes of the world, creating space for sacred questions, and making room for people who have not always felt comfortable or welcome in the church.

Rev. Jerry Rairdon is the Lead Pastor of First UMC-Noblesville, Indiana. When the decisions at the 2019 General Conference troubled him to his soul he received a spiritual leading to do something about it. This leads him to become one of the founding members of The Room For All Coalition.

All three of these leaders shared their faith stories and how that lead them to become a part of The Room For All Coalition.

The conversation Brad had with RFA leaders dealt with an honest assessment of the state of the church including the uneasiness regarding the delay in the General Conference until 2022 and how the stress of not making a decision is problematic.

The discussion leads to the listening and learning the RFA has been doing with local churches and church folk which is a part of sharing and interpreting the agenda of RFA to be inclusive of LGBTQ+ folk.

The conversation concluded with a discussion by all parties on a vision and hope for the church moving forward.

Episode 47 of The United Methodist People Podcast is an important listen for any person wanting to understand the position of groups like the Room For All Coalition.

The United Methodist People Podcast has the mission of strengthening the connection in the United Methodist Church through conversation and commentary. it is published by Rev. Dr. Brad Miller an Elder in the Indiana Annual Conference 

Mary Dicken mary.dicken@inumc.org

Jerry Rairdon jrairdon@noblesvillefirst.com

Alberto Hidalgo ahidalgojr@aol.com

https://www.roomforallin.org/

https://www.facebook.com/RoomForAllIN

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller here with you on the

United Methodist people podcast. This is the podcast, where we

look to help to strengthen the connection in the United

Methodist Church, through conversation and commentary. And

our conversation and commentary today is all about the room for

all coalition, which is an organization created in the NDA

in the Indiana conference in 2019. As a response to decisions

made at General Conference in 2019, which were thought to

brought harm to folks who identify as LGBTQ plus and their

allies. We have three folks with us today. Who are with with the

roof roll coalition. Reverend Mary Dixon is a past from the

staff the meridian St. United Methodist Church in

Indianapolis, where she is a pastor of mission and

discipleship. We also have with us Mr. Reverend Jerry Raritan

from the First United Methodist Church in Noblesville, Indiana,

and he where he is the lead pastor and one of the founders

of the room for all coalition. And Mr. Albert Hill doggo, who

is a lay person who works in sales the data for children. He

is a member of the Indianapolis Broadway United Methodist Church

and is a lay delegate to jurisdictional conference. And

my name is Reverend Dr. Brad Miller and lead pastor, the

Otterbein United Methodist Church in Indianapolis. And we

are all a part of the room for all coalition. Welcome to our

podcast today, Mary, Jerry and Albert.

Thank you. Thank you glad to be here. Thank you, awesome dude to

have you with us. So Mary, and Jerry and Albert and myself,

have been a part of this organization for a while and I

just want to read off the founding document the founding

statement about what the room for all coalition is all about,

which comes directly from the verb the website, which is a

room for all i n.org. And it says the Indiana room for all

coalition is formed in February 2019. to oppose the harm created

by the passage of the traditional plan. At the 2019

General Conference in the United Methodist Church in St. Louis.

We believe the traditional plan, the organizations behind it

bring harm to persons who identify as LGBTQ plus, and

their allies, the passage of the traditional plan has resulted in

loss of faithful members will not be a part of the church that

that excludes, it negatively impacts the witness to the

United Methodist Church to a world that has grown skeptical

of organized religion. I just want to share that with you as a

foundational document for our conversation here or here today.

But people come to an organization like this, and

they're similar ones throughout the country have their own faith

journey in their own faith, true faith pathway. And so I just

want to ask you, Albert, first of all, if you don't mind, can

you share with us and with our audience here, a little bit of

what brought you to Jesus Christ in the first place, and the

pathway that may have led you to be a part of an organization

like the room for all coalition? Absolutely. Thank you for the

opportunity, Brad.

So I grew up Roman Catholic. I'm the only son of

Cuban parents. And, you know, a lot of my upbringing was about

shoulds, as an only son as a Roman Catholic. And I had to

acknowledge that my faith wasn't very different than that it was

it was really quite rule oriented or dogma oriented.

And I have to admit that when I was a senior

in high school, I went on a retreat, and there was a portion

of time that was silent. And during that retreat time period,

I was in a hallway of this church building, and there was a

poster that said,

I had come that you might have life to its fullest. JOHN 10,

verse 10, and that just struck me as very powerful. I then

I was really struggling with you know, is Jesus calling me to do

anything more than then, you know, a senior in high school

would too and I didn't know exactly what that meant, but I

had a couple philosophies about it that you know, God is greater

than anything that we we humans can can imagine. But anyway, I

went and talked to this priest who knew exactly what was going

on in my heart. And you know, before I even spoke anything he

goes, you are struggling as to whether or not you should say

yes to God, and what that all might mean. So it really was

dumbfounding to me so I did get involved quite a bit in my

spiritual growth

And it was, you know, many years later that I fell in love and

became partnered with a gentleman that I'm in

relationship with, for almost 13 years. He's the one that brought

me to Broadway United Methodist Church as a matter of fact. So

the four kids and I joined him at Broadway. And one of the

things

was that it was all about relationship. It was about

seeking, welcoming and valuing all people.

So

as I learned more about what it is to be a

Methodist, or what Wesleyan quadrilateral made so much sense

to me, you know, that God reveals himself, you know,

certainly in in Scripture and tradition in Revelation, but

also in in rational thought, with reason. So I really found

my home, spiritually within the United Methodist Church. So it

led me to row for all coalition is the fact that as I was

seeing, you know, part of our church want to change that

inclusive. Everyone under the tent umbrella. I felt like I

needed to be a part of a solution part of a movement, if

you will, to say, No, no, no, don't forget about me. I'm also

part of God's family and I have a place. Well, thank

you for sharing that Albert. And that's a,

that's a great a great witness, Sara, Mary, I want to speak with

you for a minute to get your response to your your pathway,

what brought you to a relationship with Christ in the

first place, and then your pathway, which led you to be a

part of the roof roll coalition, the things you're involved with?

Thanks, Brad, I love that you're starting with

this question, because I think our stories are really powerful.

And, and, you know, they really shaped who we are and what we do

today. So for me, I, I grew up in the United Methodist Church,

I come from a long line of Methodists. I come from a multi

generational United Methodist clergy family. And so I was

always in the church as a child and as a youth and specifically

in the United Methodist Church. And I can think about sort of

key moments during that time that you could call significant

moments of, of commitment and my faith journey, those often took

place at summer camp, I'm a big proponent of,

of the experience of camping of church camp, also through youth

conferences, and and those kind of experiences. But you know, it

was when I went away from home, and I went to college, like many

that was the time when all of these beliefs and

understandings, you know, I went through my own Wrestling's and

had to start making them my own. And,

to be honest, I really wasn't that interested in church. And

it wasn't that I was like, I didn't have an experience of

being suddenly opposed to church or being anti christianity or,

you know, turning away from Christ in any way. It was truly

just that there were more interesting things to do on the

weekend than go to church.

that that was sort of the start of my kind of owning faith as an

adult and, and really feeling compelled to live out this faith

within the United Methodist Church. And it was, it was a

long journey after that, that kind of led me to ordained

ministry wasn't a straight path as it is true for many clergy.

But I, you know, I think I heard in your question, then what led

you to the room for all coalition into being involved in

this work? Yes, um,

you know, and that's, that would be a long story. But what I'll

try to give a short version of it, which is, so I, I grew up in

a family

that, in many ways was invested in this conflict in the church.

My father was actively involved in the confessing movement, and

the good news movements, in the sort of conservative caucus

groups, not only in our own connection here in Indiana, but

even nationally, and at the same time, I have one sibling, I have

an older sister, and she is LGBTQ. And she's now married to

a woman. They have a beautiful baby girl that was just born

just a few weeks ago. And so I grew up in a house that

particularly going into my teenage years, and again, those

early years of college, there was a lot of tension and

conflict.

So as I grew more and more committed to the United

Methodist Church, I also just grew increasingly convicted

that, that our church needs to be a place that proclaims that

good news. And, you know, so the room for all coalition when it

formed in 2019.

I, it seemed to me that the place to put some of my energy

in the church, because this is the this is the church that God

is calling us to be and, you know, I generally think you

know, you can we can not sit around all day and see what's

wrong with the church or other institutions. But at some point,

we also have to work to change it. Yeah.

Well, we'll

dig a little deeper into that, and how then it has

implications for our conversation further, but

certainly, your assumptions were challenged. And a part of what

we're talking about here is a assumption has been made about

all kinds of things and we'd have to find a new pathway

forward. And so, Jerry, I want to ask you about A little

different track with us. It's in previous podcasts, we've shared

your face story. But let's talk about maybe a foundational

scripture for you, or something out of your expression of your

faith which led you to help be a founding member of the room for

a coalition, then give us a little background how that

happened.

Okay. I think a particular scripture doesn't

jump out at me.

My face story was coming from a family that had a schizophrenic

mother. I was surrounded by Plainfield, a Methodist church

who loved our family in spite of that challenge.

So I've always had a heart for marginalized. So I guess every

scripture where Jesus reaches out, and calls us to love the

least, certainly speaks to me. And so that translated for me in

the beginning of the work of what became room for all came

out of the 2018 annual conference session in

Indianapolis at the convention center. And I just noticed that

we were having debate about a different topic, actually. But I

saw once again, the forces of one wing of our church versus

the other. And I noticed that people that would tend to call

themselves centrist and progressives just were not very

organized. And it seemed like, so many things were decided,

because the other side was much more organized than us. And I

came home. Literally in tears. I told my wife, I said, I feel

like God has just grabbed ahold of me and said, Jerry, you got

to do something. challenges. I don't know what to do. I know,

I've got to do something. So I called a colleague, Rob pukalet,

at St. Luke's and I met this church and I said it here's God

tugging on my heart, I'm not sure where to begin. How should

we start. And so we decided put word out, we had a gathering at

St. Luke's inviting what we thought was more progressive and

centrist leaning clergy, and invite them to come and have a

conversation about what we could do that might have an impact,

especially on the discussion of the human sexuality issue that

was going to happen at the General Conference in 2019. so

quickly that year, we were called the United Methodist,

Indiana at that time. And our focus was doing what we could to

help pass the one church plan. So we held individual

conversations with most of our Indiana delegates that year,

just friendly conversations, not trying to tell them what they

should do, but just try to explore the possibilities. And

if they cared to ask them, we'd share why we thought one church

was the chance to hold our church together. And then of

course, 2019 happen in St. Louis, I was there as many

others. And my heart sunk when the traditional plan passed.

That was a sad day. And at that moment, I literally felt like

the nine Methodist Church as we know it, died at that moment.

And I think what has happened since is proven that the good

news and all that was that was such a powerful step. That's

people that felt the wrongness of that, that it just energized

us. So immediately, our steering team that was made up about

seven or eight people, most of the time, boom to 25. We had

many clergy sign on to letters that we put newspaper sharing

our pain and hurt at the harness done by the General Conference

of 2019. And quickly began organizing, and had many people

reach out wanting to know what we can do. And so eventually

held a couple rallies, one at Noblesville, first in May of

2019, another one later in June preceding the annual conference

session. And we had 500 to 400 show up the both of those

rallies that showed how much interest there was, in wanting

to have a more inclusive church. And so we've been kind of on the

run since that time. So that shows how we got got started.

Oh, that's thanks for giving us that background

there. Jerry and just want to I just want to thank both Alberta,

Mary for your windows of faith and, and for what you're what

you're doing and in the church and through the roof for all

coalition and Mary mentioned about assumptions being

challenged. And I think all of our assumptions were challenged.

And the whole thinking at least I think I'll speak for myself

about the United Methodist Church basically being a big

tent where everyone could find a place to be and where different

place now but I would like for us to speak though for a minute

about what is coming out at about the about the power of

inclusion and about the pain of exclusion in regards to what God

is giving us. structures to do in the church. And so I'll just

maybe ask Albert to speak to that maybe Mary as well,

inclusion and exclusion. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Albert?

I do. I've often thought that. Well, I said

it earlier, God, God, if we believe God is, you know, all

powerful, etc, you know, a supreme beam, which you know we

do in the church, then how can we as humans, as people decide

what God's intentions are? Right? How can we, as humans

decide who's in who's out? This is not a country club. You know,

this is a people of God who come together to celebrate worship

together to see how God has made godself manifest in others.

There's so much abundance here. And I think fear of the

different drives a lot of separation. So, and then that

different. That fear, I should say, is what creates this really

bizarre behavior? Where we're working actively to separate and

it's just, you know, I think God just cries.

Yes. Mayor, I just wanted to reflect with you in a

minute. But some things Albert is saying there, what we've

talked about here about inclusion, exclusion, but I'm

thinking about how the response to Albert from other folks might

be is that we may feel differently than you. But we

love everybody. You know, we know the Bible about love, but

the biblical, the biblical accounts regarding LGBTQ issues

are clear, and there are admin so on, and therefore we have to

take this pathway to defend the scriptural, the scriptural

emphasis here. How do we come to terms with that, especially if

we're dealing with people who have this track? Mary, do you

have any thoughts on that?

Yeah, that's a really great question. Because,

you know, I think one of things I would say is I that I think

most United Methodist churches would say that they love and

welcome all people. I, you know, I actually don't know any United

Methodist Church that would say differently than

that. But don't go to everyday Baptist churches,

the friendliest church in.

Exactly right. Um, but but you know, it comes down

to this question of, you know, is it is it a conditional love

that you love somebody, but expect them to change who God

created them to be? Right, I don't want to say, just expect

them to change because I think we're all called to change,

right? That's the discipleship path. That's the journey of

transformation. But, but really, when you talk about being an

inclusive church, it means celebrating people in the

fullness of who they are. And really recognizing the very

image of God that is present in them. In that image of God is

expressed in its in our fullness, right? It's not, it's

not just in one aspect of us, and our sexual orientation, and

our gender, and our race, and our, our abilities that we have

our gifts, our talents, all of that is that, that full

expression of the image of God. And and so when we think about

this idea of being truly inclusive and welcoming and

loving as the church, it means going beyond simply saying,

You're welcome here with all these Asterix beside it, but to

say, You're welcome here and we celebrate you, we affirm you,

and we welcome you as this bearer of the image of God, you

know, I had, somebody once said to me, there is a part of God, I

cannot know, if I only interact with people like me, there is a

part of God, I cannot know if I only interact with people like

me. And that that sense has struck me so much over the

years. And I repeat it all the time. And because there's so

much truth in it, you know, if we want to see Christ, if we

want to know who God is, we have to actually embrace and

celebrate and welcome and be in relationship with people who are

different from us. And that absolutely includes LGBTQ people

in our church and and what a gift. The presence of that

diversity is, if we would, we would only just be open to it.

And I'm also thinking right now, you know, Brad about that, just

because it's one of our lectionary texts in this time

period that we're in that story of the the Ethiopian eunuch,

right and when he says, to fill up, what is to prevent me from

being baptized, A great question and what a great challenge to

the church, you know? Yeah. So

the The question is posed to us what keeps us from

being inclusive and embracing others and to celebrating that

what keeps us from that and, and perhaps it's some of our own

internal nonsense that we have to deal with and our own psyche

and our response virtualize our own theologies, and how that's

manifested in local churches and conferences, and in general

conferences and all the stuff we're talking about here. And

this, this conversation we're having at other organizations,

like a room for a coalition have emerged throughout the whole

country in either whole world, rather the same time and kind of

response to this. So there is something happening and there is

a movement that is happening. But I think it's important that

we not be caught our own bubbles as well and be good listeners

and good reflectors of what's going on and out in the out of

the world, especially our local churches. And I know recently,

room for all has had some learnings and listening

sessions, some visioning sessions, connecting with

others. And Jerry, you speak to that, or maybe someone speak to

that what are we learning are these visioning and listening

sessions around the run Indiana to the places

where all that vary, speak more on that,

because she was more instrumental in each of those

that I did participate in one of those. I think the coolest quote

that came out of the session that I was in was, somebody

mentioned that the United Methodist Church is a place to

work out who you are. And I just love that quote. Because we're

trying to capture a sense of what do we want the Methodist

church to be? Once there is some kind of division. And since

right now, or church hierarchy seems to still be focused on

trying to be the hierarchy for all because the split hasn't

happened, something's got to move in and help cast that

vision to help share the excitement of what we can be.

Because we all know, the diamond Church has some changing to do.

And now especially with COVID, they're even more challenges.

It's going to take a different kind of church to reach new

generations. So we hope with these sessions, it's the

beginning of starting that visioning process to just try to

imagine what kind of church can we become. I really love that

quote. Now that the church is a place to work out who you are,

yeah, I love that as well. And working through the

chaos through working through the pain and see where we will

re emerge. So Mary, you, Jeremy Mitchell, you were part of these

listening, or visioning sessions. So what can you add to

this?

Yeah, well, first, I would echo Jerry, like that

was such a delightful moment in the conversations. And that was

that I just, I mean, it was so true, but just to have somebody

named out loud to you like, yes, that's who we are, and should

be, you know, these, these visioning sessions that we did.

First of all, I was just delighted by the the folks who

turned out for him, you know, we had a just a wonderful turnout

of both lay and clergy across our conference that were showing

up on zoom in a season when we are all like really zoomed out.

But they showed up and wanted to talk with each other. And what I

heard consistently was just the, the longing that folks have for

a church, that is, that is all the goodness of our connection,

and all the wonderful ways that we have been in mission and

ministry together, over since the founding of our Methodist

Church, right. And, and that they they want they long for,

for that to be what drives us as a church, and not simply all of

our conflict about inclusion and exclusion, as you were saying

before, and at the same time, you know, it was also very clear

to me, it wasn't a sense of like, let's just move past it

and set that aside at all, you know, because because many of

these folks were talking about their own experiences of, you

know, have experience in harmful exclusion in our church

connection. Right. So the, the vision that I kept hearing was,

you know, can we be a church where we are, again, celebrating

whole people for in the beautiful diversity that they

are, and are united in mission and ministry, in our communities

in our state, and around the world. And, you know, I, several

of the sessions, people made reference in different ways, but

it would come up and they would say, you know, we're supposed to

be about good news, but I'm not sure that Well, really good job

of that these days,

you can think you're sharing good news. But

what people here actually hear maybe something different Quite

so.

Right? Yes.

Oh, you know, if I can interrupt your Yes, I

want to do one of the things that I was left with during, I

think I participated in all of the visioning sessions as well.

But one of the things that I was left with is just this desire to

move beyond this quote, unquote, topic of inclusion, so that we

can focus our energies as a church, on the work in the

world, you know, there's so much else that we, as a people can

focus on, there's, you know, income inequality, and there's

opportunity inequalities, there's, you know, seeing the

abundance of God in one another, that we're not able to do right

now, because we're just stuck in this, you know, bickering, if

you will, of, of who we are as church. And, you know, again,

I'm not a lifelong Methodist, but I know that the, the

Methodist Church over its history has had a tremendous

influence, you know, regionally across the nation is and the

globe, just the impact that we all do. And I would love for us

as a church to move into a space and I heard this on the

visioning into a space where we're making, we're making good

happen, sharing that good news, making good health, I

love that they're an albertan. to, you know, they

actually do have a stated, vicious table as a whole United

Methodist Church, I'm making disciples of Jesus Christ, for

the transformation of the world. And sometimes it seems hard to

do. And when we get stuck our own, you know, in some words, in

some ways, a narrow agenda here. But our but I want to go back to

you for just a moment here. You are a delegate from Indiana to

jurisdictional conference, and therefore you're in some of the

conversations regarding General Conference as some of the

delegate to conversations that are going on there. What are we

going to talk a little bit here about some of the details of how

things are getting getting done or not getting done? But what

are some things you are hearing from the public or from your

fellow delegates? What are some of the things that you're

hearing that are really causing you? Maybe, you know, some

discomfort, and maybe some things are giving you some

encouragement?

Thank you again, for the question. You

know, I, I put my my name forward as willingness to serve.

Because I wanted to be part of the conversation because I

realize and recognize that a lot of a lot of people may not know,

a gay individual, or an LGBTQ plus individual. And if I can,

you know, be part of that face to someone else, then maybe it

makes it less scary, right? So I went into becoming a delegate

thinking that we, as a church could reconcile and stay

together. And unfortunately, Brad, what I what I found is

that there's a whole group within the church that has

already made a decision. And it's, you know, the more

conservative I use, the word faction of our church has

already made a decision that they're going to leave, they've

set up their own branding, they've set up their own name,

that there's a movement that the train has already left the

station. And unfortunately, at some point, what remains needs

to move on. And, again, unfortunately, the fact that we

have not had a general conference does allow for more

dialogue. But if not everyone is coming to the table to have, you

know, an open dialogue. It prolongs some pain. So, you

know, what I'm hearing from from other lay members, whenever

there's a church announcement of, you know, leaving the church

just associated with the church. There's a lot of questions as to

why what's going on? Why are we moving forward? And it's,

there's no easy answer here because of, of COVID. We did

have our bishops, our Bishop recently, Bishop Trimble join us

recently, at one of our delegation meetings, it was

great to have him on the call. There was a lot of discussion

about where we are, why we're in the status that we are. We had a

member of the delegation encouraged us to not make quick

decisions that our tradition is about having conversations and

dialogue. That's why we have in person annual General

conferences. But it does make it somewhat discouraging that we

can't move on with the goodness.

Yes. Well, we're having to face reality just in

good degrade thinking you have to face the brutal facts and

still move move forward in faith in soba. Jerry, want to come

back to you is let's get a little deeper into all this kind

of stuff here. What's I just kind of interested in your take

Jerry, you're intimately involved with folks in this

group but others throughout Indiana and other places as

well. What in the world is going on? with General Conference? And

with decisions making? What are the implications of a delay? I

just got I know, none of us have exact answers. What's your take

on how things are shaking out in the next two year or so here?

And especially the issues we're dealing with here today?

Well, we got a major issue when the only true

body that speaks for the Methodist Church is the general

conference. And you can't pull that conference together. How do

you have anybody truly have the authority there. So from what I

understand just what I hear, here and there, and I just think

it's a lot of speculation, we know it's gonna be very

difficult to have an in person General Conference, probably at

least till fall 2022. The questions going to be how

patient are people willing to be on both sides of this. We have

churches who feel their mission is impacted, because they can't

name that we're continuing to do harm as a denomination, people

that are LGBTQ. And then I know there are people on the other

side that they're ready to move on. So there is a certain amount

of energy happening on the roof are all side of things, that's

encouraging people to take a look at the Christmas covenant

that provides a way for there'll be regionalization of the

different bodies. So that, for example of Africa, if people

want to continue to be part of the United Methodist Church,

they could do so that they'd have the freedom to establish

their own discipline. And therefore they can make their

rules that are in customer with what they are comfortable with.

There could be some energy with that. The other thing could

happen is I see some energy beings suggest let's find a way

to create the clot dread trust laws in a way that congregations

could exit to another denomination that's under the

auspices of less path. And they could speed that along and then

not have to have these conference votes. Conference

wide. So I don't know if anybody's got a crystal ball yet

what's going to happen. So

that's, that's that's part of the issue is that

you know, this, the issue is no one has a crystal ball, what's

going to happen, and yet it keeps dragging on and on, and

many in the huge factory in the COVID crisis, which means we

haven't had decision so people are getting antsy and anxious.

And the local church pastors and leaders are just wanting some

direction. And a lot of it's not happening. And that's where I

believe a room for all is at least giving at least one voice

hear what some options are. But I would just I just think we're

at a time where we're in this really anxious time and, and

people would love to have some decisions made one way or

another. And it seems to me that there's we're going to lose some

from the right and some from the left is to use that type of

language. And we're gonna left with a confused middle here. And

we'll see how it all shakes out. But it doesn't right now doesn't

feel filled.

One thing for sure is that roof Ron, Indiana,

our steering team is going to begin discussing what does it

mean to live into the church that we want to become and not

wait until fall of 2022. But to begin doing that now. And so we

may invite some congregations were pretty united on where they

want to go with this to begin living that out. And then we'll

see what the repercussions are.

Yeah. And then there's implications in terms of

Yes, they have evidence. Yeah, as you mentioned, we don't know

how to shake out but an annual conference itself may be able to

opt out and local churches, certain clergy and aligning

clergy and appointments, all kinds of things are factors

here. So Mary Selleck is something you want to share

there.

Yeah, I'm really glad Jerry said that, at the end

of that, about this idea of the US living into the church that

we're called to be because, you know, I think so often in this

conversation, we take this really kind of passive posture,

that we are, that somehow we are just, there's nothing we can do.

We're just, you know, subject to whatever the whims of General

Conference are, and we just have to kind of wait for that to get

sorted out at all. And I just I don't think that's what we're

called to do. I think we are called to faithfulness. And, and

that faithfulness means living into the gospel of Jesus Christ,

which is absolutely an inclusive gospel. And, and even just, you

know, the sort of notion that we have what's going to be the next

general conference that, you know, the finally resolves all

of our issues, you know, we're 50 years into this conflict. We

are 50 years into this in the United Methodist Church. And I

pray that we can move forward and that our legislative

processes make room for that I firmly believe that the Holy

Spirit can and does work in many ways, including it through our

legislative processes. And I believe that we are called to,

to reclaim some agency and to, to live into the church that God

is calling us to be in the here and now and not simply take a

passive posture of saying, well, we just, you know, you know,

we're just at the mercy of these delays and, and waiting for

action or inaction and all of that. So that's, that would just

be my one response to the conversation about general

conferences, that it is not the be all end all of what it means

to move forward as the as the United Methodist Church.

Well, the reality is, you know, there's a lot of

people who really don't really know or care a whole lot what

General Conference says, you know, they are impacted by what

happens at the local church, by their local church pastor, by

their brother and sister child, who were influenced or impacted

by decisions based, particularly those around LGBTQ plus issues.

I speak for myself for a minute, you know, I have three adult

children and one of my children is gay and, and my other two

children are supportive of him. And the result is all three of

them are not involved with United Methodist Church or any

church and a lot of part because they are, don't feel that

welcome spirit there. And so that's a personal thing that I

have to deal with. But I'm what I'm going to bring this back to

all three of you about is, let's get personal here for a minute,

we've talked to kind of organizationally about your own

story. What about in our churches? What kind of stories

are you seeing of our people, or you've been impacted? Good or

bad by decisions being made in the church? Or regarding these

issues? So, Albert, how about you? Would you like to speak to

that with a personal experiences of people you're aware of?

So I mentioned my my partner, Dan and I have

been together for 13 years, we had planned on celebrating a

marriage ceremony in our church. And I'm sure that we have some

very close pastor friends who would have married us who would

have presided at the the marriage ceremony, in our

chapel, for example. However, given the kind of punitive

nature of you know, what was discussed, decided at that

special conference, special annual conference in 2019. We

didn't want to put them at jeopardy. So as a result, we did

not get married. In the church, and we're not married currently.

I know that there are a lot of stories like that. People who

want to, you know, be surrounded by their church community be

celebrated. And they're holding off, or they're saying, you

know, what, maybe it's time to go check out a different church.

I will say that this is, I think, especially true for the

young, you know, the next two generations having 44 kids aged

30 to 22. I would say they're, they're pretty deep, spiritual,

faithful people. They feel a real strong calling to Broadway

because of its inclusivity. But they find that the hypocrisy in

many churches drives them not to be part of a church community.

And I think we're seeing that in a lot of places. So, you know,

let's, let's make sure the church is real and relevant,

especially to our future generations.

Yes. Thank you for that. Mirror. I guess I'll pose

the I will pose the same question to you personal

experiences you've had about decisions made that have

impacted people you know, or in your churches or something about

that, that are impacted by this?

Yeah. So um, first of all, I would say I have yet

to serve a church where there aren't those personal stories,

right? I think every every congregation I've served,

whether it is in the city or in the country or in the suburbs,

it doesn't matter. Those stories are there. But as Albert was

talking about, particularly young people, this vision was

coming to mind. It was an experience I had several years

ago. I was at the the church, I was that I was charged with

responsibility for a youth choir. And it was, it was a it

was a great joyful thing also, like not my gift, because I'm

not a youth ministry person. But I did love these young people.

And we would go on tour every summer. And we were so I was on

like a charter bus with, you know, it was like 30 or 40

teenagers on this long road trip to on this tour that we're on.

And I'm sitting in the front of the bus. And one of the youth.

She was a high school Jr. She walks up the aisle, everybody's

like conked out on the bus. But she walks up, and she sits next

to me. And she just starts chatting with me. And so we're

just talking and, and, and then pretty soon, it was clear that

she wanted to have a serious conversation. And she started

telling me that she thought she was called to ministry, to

ministry as a clergy person, which really warmed my heart

because this was one of those youth that like, was just so

gifted, and so, like so deep, spiritually, like mature beyond

her age, you know, so many gifts and graces, just like a real

treasure. Not only in the context, I was serving, but to

the church as a whole. And so she's telling me, she's feeling

this call to ministry, and you know, it's just such a joyful

thing. And then she says to me, she says, but will there ever be

people like me serving as clergy in the United Methodist Church?

And she said that because she had come out a few years ago.

And it was a heartbreaking moment. Because suddenly, I was

confronted with this very earnest teenager who is hearing

and responding to a call from God. And then asking me, can she

live out that call in the church that she grew up in, that

nurtured her that made her the person that she is today? And,

and we had a really honest conversation? You know, one of

the things I told her, I said, I said, there have been LGBTQ

persons in the Methodist Church since the very beginning. Like,

let's be clear about that. And there are LGBTQ persons serving

as clergy in the United Methodist Church today. So it is

not a question of Will there be a day when that can happen? It

has happened. But then we also had to have the honest

conversation about what is our Book of Discipline say? And if

she chooses to pursue this in the United Methodist Church, as

it currently stands? What are the obstacles that she might

come across? What is the very real harm that she might

experience? And to me that, you know, it's heartbreaking on so

many levels? You know, first of all, you know, you want in that

moment, just to be able to celebrate a young person

responding to a call from God. And yet, I had to turn into that

conversation. And, you know, and then I just think, kind of the

bigger picture of like, what do we miss out on? If we don't make

room for someone like that,

please, for some awkward and uncomfortable

conversations that should be more affirming than kind of

putting a constraint on the conversation. And that's a

little bit painful, though. Jerry, how about you, I just

want to ask if you've had personal experiences that are

impacted by some of the decisions we're talking about

here?

Yeah, we had one just before COVID. It's kind of

interesting. I never got to meet this person. But we had someone

come look at our church, one of the location for their wedding.

They removed the community didn't, they weren't members of

our church had attended church yet. But our ministry of

assistant showed her around at a good conversation, was very

impressed with her. And, and then she got all the information

and was ready to book. And she later, something about that

conversation made her think I just wonder, as she talked, is

she talking about a same sex wedding. And so she called her

back and said, oh, by the way, we're still working this out

with our denomination. And so at this point, if this is a same

sex oil, we won't be able to host it. And the young woman was

very upset, apparently at that. And so when I got back in the

office, of course, I didn't see any of this conversation. My

lizard assistant who is really a traditional leaning, person when

it comes to the view of marriage was so upset because she

realized how much harm this into this young woman who she was so

impressed with. So I got her number and tried calling,

because I was upset that I didn't get to have a

conversation and talk about things and share at least how I

feel about this issue. And, and I'm so upset that I even offer

for them come talk I I've talked to a judge in our congregation.

So I've got arrangements made that if this happens like this,

that he could actually perform the actual statement of marriage

and sign the license, but I would share in the experience

and, and I was so upset I even called offered I would pay for

their venue to make it possible for them to have it somewhere

else. Yeah. And they never, and they never call back. And well,

it pains me to think this person who this may have been their

first experience with the Christian church, and never ever

come back again.

Yes, but thank you all three arch for us for

sharing some of those painful stories and because there's a

lot of pain out of this, as we you know, deal with this

reality. But I, I really like to close our conversation if we can

with a with a word of hope, you know, we are Easter people where

people the resurrection, right? So we got to think about, you

know, life over death and all of this what it means to be a

Christian. So I just really want to bring our conversation

around, about out of this pain out of this situation out of

this chaos. What do you see, as as signs of hope moving forward,

Halbert

signs of hope are that people are realizing

that there's a what they call an intersectionality of some of

these issues, that there are people of color. Women, you

know, other groups that have not felt particularly heard or

included in the story of who we are as churches who we are as

United Methodists, and I think there's a lot of awareness. And

I am encouraged by that. It's not a, it's a great thing, it's

a great thing, that awareness is increased, it can be painful,

for many of us who aren't used to it, who, even those who are

used to it, you know, it's painful to say, Oh, I forgot to

include so and so. But I that gives me a lot of hope is that

there's an intersectionality of a lot of a lot of these themes

that's making people think differently.

Love that, etc. intersectionality. Especially,

it seems to me, from my perspective, least pushed by a

lot of our younger people who are just not having it. They're

just not having it. And I appreciate that. Mary, how about

you signs of hope, in the midst of all this? We're talking about

here today?

Yeah, I would echo Albert, there's conversations

happening today in the church that weren't happening even. And

I say church like meaning the broader church that I would say,

in many ways weren't even happening five years ago. And,

and, and it is bigger than simply our denominational

conflict over the inclusion of LGBTQ persons. It's a really a

reckoning with our histories of oppression, but but not simply

stopping there, but actually saying we want to be a different

kind of church. And I see that happening across the connection.

And that is incredibly encouraging to me, just the fact

that, that we're talking openly and honestly about all sorts of

issues of inclusion and diversity in the church. And,

and at the same time, I'm seeing that more and more folks in the

church, who are saying, you know, what we, we want to to be

the we want to be the church that proclaims God's love for

all people and sort of just unapologetically claiming that.

So that's, that's a sign of hope for me as well. As I look around

at what's happening, I think there's a lot of power in, in

simply acknowledging what is actually happening and then

being willing to wrestle with the implications for our kind of

everyday, shared life and ministry as the church and so I

see that,

thank you for that. Jerry, did I ask you about your

signs of hope, my friend?

Well, I would suggest the work that I've

experienced in this journey with room for all has been very

energizing. It's put me in touch with clergy of all ages come

across such gifted LGBTQ people that those gifts need to be

shared. It's been very energizing as we've had

conversations just like we had those visioning conversations

and Just last week I was in conversation with I believe it's

Trinity Church in West Lafayette. There is a tremendous

amount of energy of those who want an inclusive church. And

we're not going to stop until we get there. We're having a

gathering of retirees who are inclusive minded, may 19, at St.

Luke's from 11 to one. And we'll be zooming that for those in

other parts of the state. So there is a great amount of

interest, especially as we're coming out of COVID. And looking

forward to getting back together again, that we will pick up this

fight that we're involved in to try to make our church what we

want it to be. And we will not quit until it's done. Yes.

Well, a great part of what is a good thing I think,

is a we're talking about things things are no longer kind of in

the shadows or in some backroom somewhere we are talking about

it, we're dealing with it the painful things we're dealing

with. And we have to we have to because we almost have no

choice, but we are dealing with things and conversation and

commentary, which is certainly our purpose here at United

Methodist people podcast and I know that some of you will want

to learn more about the room for all coalition and similar groups

around the around the country and in our show notes. You will

have the connections to our guests here today as well as the

website room for all ai n.org and the Facebook page

facebook.com. Slash room for all AI n. And we'll have connections

to our guests today. We do have a great big thank you to

Reverend Mary Dixon from the Indianapolis reading street

United Methodist Church on the staff there. Mr. Robert Hale

doggo, who is a lay person from the Indianapolis Broadway United

Methodist Church and a delegates jurisdictional conference. And

Reverend Jerry Reardon, one of the founders of the roofer oil

coalition, who's the senior pastor at First United Methodist

Church in Noblesville, Indiana, has been I have been a pleasure

to be with you today. My name is Reverend Dr. Brad Miller, pastor

at Otterbein United Methodist Church in Indianapolis, and the

host of the United Methodist people podcast. We want to

continue to encourage you to do all the good that you can