The Digital Accessibility Podcast – Chris Holloway

In this episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Joe is joined by Chris Holloway, newly appointed Head of Accessibility at Recite:Me, a technology leader renowned for its digital inclusion tools.

Chris brings deep experience from his years at PwC and across the broader digital accessibility sector. He shares insights on building high-performing accessibility teams, demystifying reputation issues around accessibility overlays/toolbars, and how community and intent drive sector progress.

We discuss:

• A journey through consulting and tech: Chris’s move from PwC to Recite:Me and what motivated him towards a career in Accessibility.
• Team building and community: How Chris hires and nurtures new accessibility talent, and the essential skills he seeks out.
• Overlay tooling and sector reputation: Why overlays spark controversy, lessons learned from past industry missteps, and how Recite:Me looks to drive meaningful change.
• Client engagement and sector transformation: How leading companies can genuinely embed accessibility instead of mere box-ticking.
• Practical tips for accessibility assessments, guidance on interpreting standards, and how Chris’s public content empowers practitioners and organisations via platforms like LinkedIn.
• Looking ahead: Chris’s hopes for the future of digital inclusion and the projects and changes that excite him for the year to come.

Follow Chris Holloway:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-holloway-accessibility/

Follow Joe James:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/

Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/A11yJoe

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PCRDigital

Visit PCR Digital:

https://www.pcrdigital.com/

Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.

If you're looking to learn more about the field of

accessibility, how to implement it within your role

or your company, or to get advice on where to start or

see how others have navigated complex issues that you may

find along the way, then you're in the right place.

I'm honored to be able to share these insightful

chats with thought leaders, advocates, and practitioners

of digital accessibility throughout this podcast,

and I hope you'll find it a useful resource.

As always, thank you so much for listening and I

hope you enjoy the chat.

Today's guest is someone whose journey spans some

of the biggest consultancy and tech organisations in

the accessibility world.

I'm joined by Chris Holloway, recently taken on the role

of head of accessibility at Recite Me after years of

delivering huge impact at PWC.

Chris's experience covers everything from

accessibility strategy and audits to digital tooling

and technical innovation.

we're gonna dive into Chris's journey, the inside

story on accessibility tooling, which some people

will refer to as overlays, team building, reputation,

intent, and, so much more.

So welcome to the podcast, Chris.

Hi, Joe.

Thanks for having me, I think.

No, don't be worried.

It's all good.

so I guess, as, as always, we'll just

start at the beginning.

So, a couple of questions really, but, what originally

led you to specialise in accessibility, and then more

recently, what encouraged you to sort of take the leap from

a role working at a very, you know, globally recognised

brand, PricewaterhouseCoopers or PWC to the head of

accessibility at Recite Me.

It's a big question, isn't it?

It's a really big question.

So yeah, why, why did I get into the industry?

I think that's the starting point.

if I'm honest, like many people, it wasn't

something that I left school to go and do it.

It's something that, you know, you kind of find

yourself doing one day.

for me, I just had a genuine interest in,

in technology anyway.

so, you know, from my perspective, always, always

been really interested in kind of learning about

how technology works, why we're using it.

and then for me, I just happened to be, if I'm

honest, in the right place at the right time to get the

right, the right technology in front of me and just, I

just had a really good, you know, real interest in it.

So, how did I start?

I was sat there, working in a team where we

looked after some of the software packages at PWC.

So it was kind of how we, how we bring things in, how

we give software to staff.

So, so for me it was, it was just kind of working out, um.

How I could get the screen reader work in, and then

more importantly, what, what is it that I've just fixed?

You know, who, who's, who's this for?

Can I meet the person?

and yeah, I, I kind of got introduced to, to one of the

partners at the time who was, who's using this software.

and he just gave me a really good insight to kind of asking

why, why do we need this?

And obviously, that person had vision impairment at the

time, and obviously that was gonna help them go forward.

So I realised actually that there was technology

sitting between somebody being able to do their job

or potentially not, and being completely excluded

from what we were doing.

So, that's kind of where I started then.

Then I kind of asked the question of like, well,

what, what else is there?

What, what else have we got in in the firm that

actually we're, we're trying to do our best with?

and it, it, it quickly, you know, kind of that got to

that point where we had.

Screen readers.

We had, you know, different technologies

for literacy support.

You know, we had different settings

that were any laptops.

and then I, I realised after that I was thinking, this

is exactly where I want to be, is I love doing this.

and then I got this extra bit that I wasn't expecting was

technology and then people, so you had kind of, you know, two

things that I really enjoyed.

I love talking to people and understanding how they work

and what they're doing and how I, you know, I can help them.

and I realised actually really quickly that I had

two interests that were like, really well aligned.

So, yeah, I, I kind of moved into to looking after.

Assistive technology in the firm.

So I looked after all the licensing, any road blockers,

anything I could fix at the time to help people.

So, I, I kind of did that for a, a long while.

and then obviously moved into kind of more around,

you know, learning about accessibility, actually really

understanding, I get why we've got the technology now,

but why is that technology now not working with that?

What's the problem?

So, it was kind, it felt like a little bit of a natural

progression 'cause I kind of went from understanding

why we're doing this to, okay, well I need to get

involved in how we'd now fix other things so that the

technology is accessible and it actually works with it.

So that was kind my evolution into that.

and it just went from there.

It absolutely went from there.

Kind of learned more, wanted to get involved in more stuff.

Got got involved with a lot of the communities, accessibility

communities, which kind of, it, it just opens an

eye up into everything that you can be involved in.

Um.

For me, it was kind of, that was what I wanted

my career to be in.

So it's been in that for, just overall 11 years now.

it's been amazing.

I've seen a lot of progress in, in the tools and the

technology that's around it.

why w leave PWC?

I think that's kind of, that, that's a

question that I've seen.

I've been asked that loads.

And I think, you know, for me, what PWC is an absolutely

fantastic place, with how it supports the staff and,

you know, the technology they've got access to.

and you know, for me it was kind of like, great, we've

now got that into position where it's stable, it's

doing what we needed to do.

but for me it was kind of what's next.

And for me, obviously one of the things that I think

the, the industry, the accessibility industry suffers

a little bit for is that we have an accessibility team.

You have individuals in your teams that are kind of

part of that, the team can only ever get so big because

once it gets to that point where it's kind of, okay,

we've got the accessibility team, you generally

don't then have another accessibility team that

sits next to it or another.

it tends to be kind of, you've got that hub and spoke effect.

You've got that main area where you've got access

split champions, your specialists in there.

what does that do for, for people that

are actually perhaps looking for progression?

it means that if you've already got somebody

potentially, you know, as a lead or a head of, or

directorship or anything like that, it actually

becomes really difficult then to, to kind of navigate

away from that, to go and do something else to

perhaps get promotion or, you know, seek progression.

So that was kind of, where I was looking at, I was

kind of looking at where could I go to where I could

actually deliver some impact, really grow what we need to

be doing in the industry.

Um.

Stay within the industry and stay with the people I knew.

stay with your tribes.

That's kind of what I've done.

So, I've stepped obviously into something that's

completely different, but also something that,

now I'm kind of four to five months into it.

I absolutely love it.

and you know, for me it's just given me an opportunity to,

to kind of move in, really look at our roadmaps, really

understand where, where our strategy needs to go.

also layering on the things that I've known and I've

trusted over the years, and that is that everything you do

must be focused around people.

is a people first approach.

Accessibility, for me is it's, it's solely about

making sure that people.

Are able to do and be the best that they can possibly be.

So yeah, moving over to Recite Me, it's given me an

opportunity to, to shape the focus a little bit, shape

some of the strategy, that's kinda where we're going next.

but also perhaps challenge some of the things that

we, we, you know, we might need to change or adjust.

which I've, I've absolutely loved doing.

So, yeah, it's also given me the opportunity to, to

kind of stay in touch with a lot of the network that

I had, including yourself, Joe, last night we went out.

Mm-hmm.

but yeah, for me it's just, you know, that's what I

love about the industry.

I love that culture around that.

didn't wanna lose that.

So I think for me, moving across, to Recite Me just

is, is given me the option to kind of expand a little

bit, but also make sure that.

I still get to do what I love doing, so, yeah.

Yeah, it does.

I mean, it's the thing, I think when we look at, I mean

obviously recruiter head on, when I look at people that are

specializing in accessibility, there are those sort of

nooks and crannies almost.

It's like, oh, okay, you are mostly on the audit

side or testing, and then, oh, you are, you know,

creating, you're innovating and, and making technology.

And then like, I guess it's, it's really familiar territory

for you because a lot of your stuff has been working on sort

of internal tooling and, and the assistive technologies

and things like that, which is, you know, I guess to

put it really plainly, like sort of what Recite Me is

and what they're, you know, what they were created to,

to do and to build is, is sort of technology that helps

people, you know, navigate the web and technology.

So.

Brilliant.

And then, so recently as well, I know, so.

Making immediate impact as you do.

you recently grew your team, you hire, you made a

new hire, and I believe you tapped into your own sort

of network as well, that you say, you know, obviously

that you've, you've managed to, to keep in touch with,

to find the right person.

So naturally, as a recruiter, I'm gonna ask you, so what's

your sort of approach to building teams and the

importance of that community?

And sort of, sorry for four questions in one,

but what sort of skills in particular, would you

say matter for candidates in this space when they're

trying to sort of break into the accessibility field?

So one thing I would say is, um.

I absolutely loved that recruitment process.

It was so fun.

you know, being able to kind of reach out to

people and go, great.

How, how is it that you work?

You know, oh, we work slightly differently.

So I love that approach, you know, and that's great.

so I, for me, I can't take all the credit.

So we've got, an internal, recruit as well, Leslie,

who is absolutely fantastic.

Okay.

So, from her perspective, it was around kind of

approaching that from an inclusive perspective

and, you know, I went down that path as I, I, as I

came in to recite as well.

So really, really good path in.

I think probably what, what I looked for, when

I, when I'm looking at adding people to the team or

bringing people into your, your kind of bubble, um.

You've really got to look after that.

and one of the things that I was really keen on

doing when, when I started was bringing people in

that are, that genuinely care about this stuff.

You know, they've, they've got a genuine

passion for accessibility.

They may have, some lived experience as well, you

know, that might be themself, so it might be family

or friends around them.

so for me, I, I needed people that come into the

team that really gets it.

You know, they're not coming in, to, to kind of have

to go back and learn that.

so I think for me, there's certain things that you

can, you can bring staff into and you can upskill

them, you can do that.

So things like WCAG for example, great.

You, you can bring somebody in.

as long as they've got those, those kind of fundamentals,

they've got the core values, they understand why

they're here, they get the context around it, and they,

they've got some disability confidence themselves.

the other stuff can come.

You know, learning about WCAG

yes, it'd be lovely if you had somebody that that kind

of understood that great.

Of course you would be looking for somebody.

However, what I was really keen on is I didn't want

people that are almost the WCA dictionary.

It's, it's, it's no good.

It's no good for me because we've got tools that can

help with that stuff.

We've got frameworks out there that can do that.

just because, you know, every single WCAG standard, it's,

it's fantastic if you do, but if you can do that, but then.

Not have those people skills to connect in

with clients that really genuinely need our help.

and you just quote, WCAG standards to them and you

just don't understand why.

for me, that's, that feels like a complete backward step.

one of the things I also wanted to do as well, and

I dunno if this is something that that generally goes

across the board, is I actually brought my team

in to help me with that.

so I brought people that are already in my team

into those interviews to really ask the questions

that they need help with.

so rather than it be kind of me go through the interview,

interview process or perhaps if somebody externally

do that for me and then go, oh, I've, I've hired

somebody, and there we go.

They just get, you know, injected into

your team and that's it.

that's completely, that feels like a completely

well the wrong approach for me?

I wanted to make sure that we had somebody that came

along that felt like they fitted in to start with,

and they were kind of, we were ready to bring them in.

They knew who we were, they were comfortable

with us, we were really comfortable with them.

and actually, do you know what?

It, it, it luckily worked out that way.

So we've got, a couple of, I've got a couple

of team members now, so Abby and, Avenie.

and what we were really focused on was actually

bringing somebody in that, you know, fitted our core values

as a firm, really understood what we were trying to do as a

team, but also challenged us.

I didn't want, somebody else to come into the team that

was gonna just sit and go.

It's great, Chris.

Let's do that.

I, I wanted somebody, I wanted somebody to

come into the team.

I want still people in the future as well to come

in, and challenge that, that status quo, bring new

ideas in and perhaps after wise, you know, and perhaps

bring their experience in with that as well.

because I think that's the only way we can do it.

That's how we're gonna get better.

So, yeah, it's been, I, I've, I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

I, again, I can't take all the credit 'cause I had Leslie

helping me, but, you know, it's something that I think

if we're doing that wrong and you're not asking those

questions and you're just bringing people in 'cause

you think that they've, their CV looks good, I think

it's the wrong approach.

So, just to kind of caveat a little bit on that as

well, is, is I think it's really important how you,

how you bring people in, in terms of, you know,

your interview process, so.

Mm-hmm.

Um.

I've in the past, not in any of the companies

that I've got roles with, which is fortunate.

but I've been to interviews in the past where I've

walked out and gone.

I really don't wanna work there.

I don't, if I get the role, that's great.

I don't want to work there because the way that

I've been interviewed.

So, you know, I was really, you know, when I went through

the interview stage, I was kinda like, look, how can we

make sure we are not putting people on the spot in an

interview and expect them to, to quote the WCAG to me, okay?

Mm-hmm.

But how are we also bringing somebody in that I give them

the opportunity to really show me what they can do?

so the approach was, you know, for us, we, we go in with kind

of an informal discussion.

Is this right for you?

Is it, is this right for us?

We, we, are we on the same path here?

You know, do you understand what we're looking for?

is there anything else that you perhaps think that our

role should do that we are not, that you'd love to

discuss in a bit more depth?

and then we move into obviously, you know, kind

of through that approach.

It's kind of what's the next steps.

It's kind of a more informal discussion.

we start to talk about, you know, what our core

values are, what the actual job will be doing.

and in that case, what we did do in, in, in two

instances is we've adjusted that role slightly.

we've worked out and we've understood that

that person, you know, we, we've got this role.

But actually they would be really good doing

this as well, or perhaps not so good in that.

So let's tailor the role.

so you know, we can tailor the role.

And then I think it's really important as well, a lot

of people doing kind of task-based activities and

going, here we go, you've got this and you need to

join a call and we need to, you need to walk through an

accessibility audit with us.

do you know what, I would absolutely die if I had

to do that on the call, if I'm honest with you.

without any prep or just being on the, being put on the spot.

I could probably do it, but it wouldn't be fun.

would that put me in a better position to, to really show

somebody what I can do?

Absolutely not.

It really wouldn't.

so what I did was I set a, a task and I, I

strongly believe this is the right way to do it.

I set a task.

I just wanted 20 minutes of their time, 20 minutes

of time I built, to help a few, colleagues,

a website that just had accessibility issues on it.

The really obvious ones, some of them not so much.

and I just said, look, you know, do you know what?

I'm not gonna set you any templates.

I'm not gonna tell you how to do it.

What I want you to do is time box yourself.

I don't want two hours of an audit on this.

And I was very clear.

I said, listen, in your own time, spend 20 minutes

on, on this website.

All I want you to do is I want you to write down

what you can find, in your way of doing it.

And then I want you to come to me and just give

me a priority order of what you would tackle first.

Yeah.

And why, why would you do that?

and I just think that was the best approach.

I, I felt it gave somebody the opportunity to step back,

work in their own environment, perhaps drag out some of the

tools and, you know, crazy WCAG artwork they've got on

the wall or whatever it is.

Um.

And it just gave them the opportunity to go away and,

you know, and, and kind of spend some time doing that.

and I think the key to that is trust.

what I trusted them to do at that point was only

spend 20 minutes on it.

I don't need more of your time.

But also, if you've gone out to different resources or

you've had some help from somebody else, or you needed

something, tell me about it.

I wanna know about it.

So, that's what we did.

So I got, a couple of those back.

one of them, one of them was Abby.

Okay.

Abby and our team.

but actually it was kind of like, I can

see what you're doing.

That's great.

I love what you're doing.

some of it didn't quite align with what we do.

And actually do you know what I've, since, since that person

has joined, we've actually adjusted some of the things

that we've, we would do to go.

You know what?

That's a really way, that's a great way of doing it.

That's why are we not doing that?

Let's adjust it.

Yeah, let's make sure that works.

Or, you know, there's, there's certain bits that I've been

really key on to go, well, do we really need to do that?

Actually, let's not do as much of that.

Let's think about it again.

So, yeah, for me it's just, giving, giving

people that approach.

I don't want a cook a, a cookie cut effect of

just employing another person that's the

same as the last one.

Sure.

I don't think that any that helps anybody.

but I think it's also really, really key to, to just really

give people the opportunity to, to sign kind of shine.

I think that approach also gave us the opportunity to, to

have, make sure that the way that we were recruiting and

being, bringing people into the firm is really inclusive.

It's really open.

So, you know what we were doing throughout that process

and I was asking, you know, upfront was, listen, is there

anything I can do to help you through this process?

Is, are there any adjustments I can help make?

Do you need a bit more time to answer some of the questions?

great.

If you do, that's fine.

Tell me.

It's not gonna influence how, how the process goes,

but what it does allow me to do is go, this person

is an extra half an hour.

Let's not rush this interview.

Let's add half an hour on the end.

in fact, while we've done that, let's give everybody

the opportunity to do that if they need to.

Yeah.

So I think that was the, the fair way of doing it.

And I think, you know, what we got out of it

was real transparency.

somebody that wanted to come into the firm, somebody

that was happy to come in.

and yeah, I, I really, I stumbled by it.

I think that's, kind of our approach.

I'm gonna do it again.

Yeah.

Amazing.

I think that's, yeah, it's great points there as well.

And so I wrote a few things down as well, so it was more

around, obviously Leslie Credit where it's due.

That's brilliant.

I'm pleased to hear that there's a, an excellent

recruiter out there and supporting you doing that.

that when you mentioned about just having the fundamentals

and then it's actually being able to put that into

practice, like when it, I do make a joke quite often about.

you know, if I'm speaking to a new client and they need

help sourcing someone, and I, you know, the first question,

what do you need them to do?

Or what, what knowledge do they need to have?

And usually I make the joke of reciting WCAG

2.2 in its entirety.

And obviously that's not, I mean, it's great like you

said, to have that recall.

but without putting it into practice or being able to

translate that to people that won't be aware of it,

it's kind of a useless skill.

Not useless, but you know what I mean.

but no.

Brilliant.

And then the, yeah, I mean that interview process

where the, where you are upfront as the recruit, the

recruiting party to make sure people are comfortable and

you be the one to approach.

Would you like any, is there anything we can do to make

you feel more comfortable or any adjustments we can make?

Because I do think that the owner should be on

the, the hiring side.

I think that you should be the one to approach that.

'cause I've, people will feel uncomfortable.

They shouldn't, but they will feel uncomfortable

about feeling like this is gonna jeopardize my chances.

They're gonna think I need more time in day to day.

But actually it's a really anxiety sort of driving

scenario regardless of how comfortable you

might be with the person that's interviewing you.

You're gonna be nervous, you're gonna be anxious.

And I mean, I'm a very anxious person anyway.

Yeah.

So like interviews are, are a nightmare for me.

So I'm always, I'm very conscious of that.

And then I try and project that when I'm speaking

to my own candidates to say, you know, it's fine.

Just let me know and 'cause I would feel the exact same way.

I totally agree.

I mean, also what you gotta think about is, you

know, what's the whole purpose of an interview?

What's the purpose of an, in the idea of an interview

is so that you get a really good understanding of what

that person is about and they get understand to what

you're trying to do as well.

Yeah.

Why would I want somebody really stressed out and

not giving me the best?

It's just, it goes against everything

that we would wanna do.

So, you know, for, for us as well, that's why I was kind

of like looking at, you know, how would this person work?

I want to see how they're working.

But I do, we do that in under pressure in the day jobs.

We absolutely don't.

If you're gonna do an audit or you're gonna go out and, you

know, go and give some, some consultancy to somebody, you

would go, not so much guarded and armed, but you'd go there

prepared, you'd make sure that everything was set up so that

you know you could deliver the best to, to that client

or the customer, whoever it is that you're working with.

You wouldn't do that by just walking into a discussion

where they're just gonna fire millions of questions at you.

Very true.

You wouldn't, we have been in positions that, that happens.

however, it's, it's not your general day to day

run of the mill is that you wouldn't necessarily walk

into an interview every day.

So for me it's like, how do I see that

person actually working?

Can I get a glimpse of that before we go

through the process of, of onboarding them?

and I think that's what I got.

So I was really pleased.

perfect.

Yeah, cool.

Shows good leadership as well, rather than being

a boss, you're a leader.

You're someone that's actually enabling people.

You know, you are, you are bringing them along

and that, that, you know, is quite evident in what

you've said there as well.

And I love the fair task and that it's short.

You're not taking too much of people's time, as long as you

are getting an idea of what they're capable of as well.

And absolutely it's a two-way street.

You know, it, you want people to want to work with you.

'cause otherwise you're gonna have to go through the

recruitment process again.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And I think, I think as well as part of that is it's,

it's so important to just keep people up to date.

Let people, you know, let people know what's going on.

because, you know, I've been in positions before, not so

much, you know, recent, but you're kind of, you apply for

a role, you get really excited about it, you get emotional,

you put that emotion into what you're trying to do.

You go to an interview, you do everything you

possibly do, and then you never get any updates.

And, you know, that could be really upsetting for,

for people that are, you know, in a position where

they're, they're trying to get into the industry, they're

trying to do a role, they're really trying, but they're

not getting anything back.

Yeah.

so I, I, you know, for me as well, what I,

what I'm interested in doing is actually giving useful

feedback to people that perhaps didn't quite make it.

And that that wasn't because they weren't

good enough for the role.

I had one role.

so for me as well, it's kind of, you know what,

I need to have somebody that is the right person.

I can't have two or three people.

'cause there isn't the roles for it.

So, you know, it's what I tried to do through

the process and we'll continue to do this, is

if anybody comes for an interview and, you know,

they don't land the role.

That might be an US problem.

That's not a your problem.

we need to be able to give you effective feedback to

go, look, you did great.

These are the reasons why, you know, it might not be

that Some of that's gonna be an easy conversation.

Yeah.

but I do think, I think the industry needs to really look

at what we're doing to make sure that people are, are

given those skills back to go, well next time it's great,

but why don't we focus in, in your next interview perhaps?

Why don't we focus more on you a little bit more?

Yeah.

Not quote macca.

So it's those sorts of things actually, I, I think are

really important as well to give people feedback.

Definitely.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

And obviously it's tricky and, that's, you know, part

of my job as a recruiter, so that's, that's one of the

things I'm always pushing for.

And I understand that sometimes it's, it's a time

thing or, you know, it's, it's, it's difficult, but I

will always, always, any of my candidates, I'll just push.

And if it's, if it's one, one liner, it's

not useful for anyone.

It's almost, what's the point?

You know, just kind of at least give me

something to that they can work with, you know?

Yeah.

But brilliant.

Right.

So I'm gonna move on to the next part, which, um.

Brace yourself.

Sorry Chris.

so it is around that, the overlays chat, the

reputation, in the industry.

but we had a really nice discussion last week about the

intent and things, so I just wanted to see if you could

share that with the listeners.

So, overlay tooling companies, do have a bit

of a, a, a, a rough time of it in the accessibility

sector, sometimes seen as being a dirty word.

I guess there's some past mistakes in marketing and,

and potential overpromising, which isn't exclusive

to accessibility tooling or overlay, technology.

But, you've now seen Recite Me from the inside.

So very curious to know what your honest perspective

is on tool makers, the intention and where that

conversation needs to go.

Yeah, it's, it's.

You know what?

It's a big question, isn't it?

It's a, there's a lot to unpack in that as well.

one of the things, I've come to learn very, very

quickly, and you know, for me as well, I've been in the

industry for a long time, and obviously part of that

is kind of, you hear, you know, the, the terminology

of overlay and, you know, for us, it was almost like

you, you almost just stayed away and it was kind of one

of those things that you never really got involved in.

what I have come to learn is, you know, the

differences between what we class as an overlay and

what we class as assistive technology or a toolbar.

Okay?

And there is, I, again, I wasn't aware of this until

I really looked into it, the differences between them.

so we obviously Recite Me, from our perspective,

and I, I, I truly, genuinely believe this.

We are a toolbar, we're assistive technology.

And the differences between them.

a a again, this is, you know, people coming into

the industry be quite challenging to really

get your head around it.

But also, you know, we've had some, we have had, certain

others in the industry that, that haven't been

quite as transparent and, you know, they are very

different, different position.

I'm not gonna go too much into that.

However, assistive toolbars, when it goes

onto a site, it doesn't change any of the coding.

Okay.

And it's really, really critical and it's important

that we recognize that.

Okay.

So, obviously you get a lot of people say, well,

there's one line of coding.

Yes, there is, there's a one line of coding,

however, that one line of coding doesn't interrupt

anything that's on the page.

Okay.

So I would go to normal site website, nothing

happens on the site until I actually either need

to look at the tool.

And I, I, I'd prompt it and I'd, I'd load it up on

the screen and, you know, we see the toolbar, you

know, sort of appear if somebody's using assistive

technologies at that point.

Okay.

There's two things that, that we have from our perspective.

One is that line of code doesn't interrupt

anything on the page.

Okay.

So if you've got an assistive tech coming into that, they

should and will be able to just carry on using their

assistive tech, providing the website has been

built in an inclusive and accessible way to start with.

Okay.

So if it hasn't been IE you know, they, they've

not spent the right effort.

The client or the customer, whoever it is, hasn't

invested time, their website isn't accessible,

then putting assistive technology on that is always

gonna be an issue and it's always gonna be a barrier.

And you're always gonna have compatible issues.

Exactly.

The same applies for toolbar.

Okay.

So we are assistive technology.

If you put our toolbar.

Onto a website that hasn't been built inclusively,

it's not accessible.

You, you're not putting the right processes in.

You're not looking after your customers and

clients and improving accessibility of your site.

We're gonna struggle with at toolbar, which is

why I'm here, so kind of cover that in a second.

when we're talking overlay territories, this is

something that we don't class as self sitting in.

we are looking at something that sits on your site

and you give the option.

You, you give your customers and clients no option, right?

They arrive on your site.

They may be using assistive technologies.

They may not be they, you've injected code

into your website.

Sometimes, in most cases, automatically you are

using AI and you know, it manipulates the site.

It makes the changes.

Your client might not even be aware of what's, what's

changed on their site.

For me, that's, that's where, you know, that overlay.

Can do some good things.

I think there's, there's definitely merit and there's

a place for it that I, you know, for me, again, a

lot of technology, there's definitely a place for it.

A hundred percent.

however, I think, you know, there's certain things that

we shouldn't necessarily be doing and you know, for

me is applying automated fixes on the fly and then

not giving people the option to remove them

feels like a backward step.

Because what you're doing effectively is saying, you've

already got an inaccessible website, great, we are gonna

put some code on there that might fix everything, and

then you are gonna try and use your assistive tack

on it and it doesn't work.

that's the approach that we're very much against.

We wouldn't want to do that.

So what we do is.

Your toolbar sits on the site.

It doesn't interrupt with anything on your site

until you want it there.

what we also do as well is from our perspective, we are

consistently and constantly checking and testing all of

our internal products with assistive technologies.

Okay.

We're improving the way that we do that.

Okay.

So, you know about, you know, rather than sort of

that functional testing, are we really testing our

toolbar with real people that would come onto your

site and actually use that?

So we are doing that.

and we've, we've started to make some huge changes

in there in terms of, you know, can we make sure that

it's, it's keyboard friendly?

Like not just can we see if it will do it and can we

manipulate the page to do it?

No.

No.

How are we gonna actually make it do it?

you know, are there, are there tools on there

that potentially are kind of more obsolete now?

You know, we don't, they're not necessarily needed.

Maybe some of the built-in stuff is, is gonna do that or,

you know, perhaps, you know.

We can do that slightly better in an easier way.

Let's do that.

we've also looked at bringing things into the toolbar.

so again, separate to overlay toolbar, that

actually adds real value in terms of you wouldn't

get this on any platform.

Okay.

So one of the, one of the examples is, we've

just added, not auto-generated BSL.

Okay.

Very clear.

We're not looking at ai, automated gen generated BSL,

but what we've actually got are, are clients now that have

the toolbar on their site and actually they can have, a,

a, a complete transcribed version of that page,

with a real person that's sat and gone through it.

And actually that's on the toolbar.

So actually you can have BSL interpretation right across,

certain pages that have been through that process.

Well, that's assistive technology.

Something that's gonna help somebody.

But also raise some of that education piece around, you've

got a tool about here, why are we doing this stuff?

So, yeah, I, I think for me, I've, I've learned so much,

even just joining Recite Me and actually working out

and kind of understanding a, what the differences were.

I spent a long time really understanding what

that looks like and why.

but also kind of looking at the roadmap

and what's coming up.

and you know, we've potentially got, and this

is, this is what we were talking about the other day,

Joe, around a huge missed potential in the industry.

So, you know, we've got, if I was to give, Recite

Me as an example, I've got developers that are

sat there at Recite Me.

Their day job is to literally create accessible tools.

Hmm.

That's it.

That's what they do.

They, they do that day in and day out.

And, you know, what we're looking at across the

industry at the moment is there's been a lot of

redundancies across teams.

access, fully focused teams.

We've seen, you know, less budget allocation.

We've seen people, you know, lose roles that they shouldn't

have lost those roles.

And firms, you know, not perhaps stepping back.

We are in a very different position.

I've got team of people.

their day job, like we said, is to create

accessible technology.

what they need.

and what I can see, you know, especially over the last 12

to 24 months is there's a lot more focus on right, let we,

we are doing the right thing, we're in the right place.

but actually, do we have good disability confidence?

Do we really understand that if we're building this tool or

these tools that we're doing.

Do we really understand why we're building it?

Do we understand our target audience?

So, you know, we've, we've done sessions with recently

more so with, BSL, where we had the whole firm in to

learn more about what BSL is.

obviously I, I didn't come out as a specialist.

For me it was, it was, you know, but, you know,

it was important to go, well, actually, why have

we put BSL on our toolbar?

These are the people that have come in to help with that.

And they kind of did some upskilling.

We've looked at, you know, IAAP membership.

it's not, it's not there to look good.

Okay.

It's, it's there.

Because what I want our staff to be able to do is feel

comfortable with reaching out to people and really learning

kind of the next step around how do we evolve, how to make

the toolbar better, how do we improve certain things?

How do we, how do we listen to the, to the communities

and go, right, there's a gap on our tool, let's fix that.

We can get it done.

Yeah.

Remembering I've got a team of developers there

that want to do this.

They're passionate about it.

I just need to know what people want.

Yeah.

so yeah, I think, I think for us, seems some, some

massive leap forward.

and I, I, we're gonna continue that.

That's something that we're gonna carry on doing.

and I think, you know, one of the things that I, I've

seen is going back to overlay very quickly, is once you're,

once you're kind of in that position where not so much

your class as an overlay, but you are close enough

to be that people don't understand what a toolbar

is actually trying to do.

There's no exit door.

There is no way of going.

Well, actually, do you know what, for, for the

new people coming into the industry, or perhaps people

that have learned a little bit more about, about what

the differences are and why we're doing this stuff?

Or do you know what actually just wanna

come and be part of it?

I would probably, my, my advice to people is

my door is always open.

I've always been very transparent with that.

I've been very open.

I'm open, I'm genuinely, genuinely open to discussions

around what that looks like.

I want people to come and talk to me about it.

If they're, if they're not sure or perhaps, you

know, they, they've got an interest in it, they wanna

come see how it works, come and talk to me open,

to have that discussion.

So, yeah, hopefully, you know, for me it just gives people

a little bit of confidence that, you know, technology

changes all the time.

Okay.

there's, without going to too much depth, we've

also gotta think that from a platform perspective.

So from your, from you know, technology and having the

operating systems, you've also got operating systems

that have something that's very similar to a toolbar or

an overlay that's actually built into the platform.

Okay.

So, you know, we've also gotta look at that, that evolution

of there, that people actually see that as a toolbar or they

see that as assistive tech.

However, perhaps private firms that are quite, you know, not

quite as large or not that size of EN enterprise actually

have a very similar offering that's just as good, maybe

even better, that they're just not getting the opportunity

to, to kind of explore and go, look, come and talk to us.

We'll fix it if there is a problem.

if you need something or is an additional feature that

you think is a great idea, let's have the discussion,

let's put it on the board.

So, yeah, hopefully that gives people confidence.

I'd love to have conversations with people if who want to.

So.

I love that.

And it is one of those things, I think there's

a misconception.

I think that there's, like, again, it is funny 'cause

the conversation actually came up again last night.

So we were out with, some friends in the accessibility

community and all loads of different con con

conversations happening, which was amazing.

And one of them came, one of the points that was

raised was marketing teams naturally, or sales teams

just really desperately want to say that something

is a hundred percent.

Yeah.

So re regardless, accessible, usable,

whatever you wanna call it.

They just really want people to think this is

gonna solve your problem a hundred percent.

But there is no such thing.

Yeah.

When it comes to, I think it's a very good point.

Accessibility.

It's a very good point.

'cause you, you know, you know from our side as well,

so what we've invested time in is actually spending, so

I do this on a weekly basis.

Okay.

I spend time, within all the groups that the sales

team are in, and we are learning, we're getting, we.

Vastly improving in terms of what we're doing.

you know, and what I also have access to as well

is past discussions that, you know, people have had.

so I'm very key in terms of, you know, we

shouldn't be, we should never be over promising.

We should be really, honest with pricing.

we should be really transparent.

but also as well, do you know what, there's, there's

also there's opportunities where, do you know what

that partnership just isn't the right fit?

Yeah.

So we, we may have clients that are coming towards

us, that want a quick fix.

They're ready to throw perhaps a lot of money at something,

they're ready to go.

Well that's great, that's your problem.

You go and fix it and come back to us.

And we just want the golden stamp at the end of it.

we don't want to partner with people like that.

We don't want to.

So, you know, for us as well, it's a very different

position where actually you walk away from a deal or a

client because actually we are not the right fit for you.

Your core values.

They don't align with what we're trying to do.

Yeah.

and I think for me, that's, that's something that, you

know, I have seen done.

I think it's really important that we do that.

but also it's kind of making sure that we've

got the right education into, into our sales teams.

We are listening to feedback.

Yeah.

Okay.

We are really clear and transparent on, on what

we can and can't do.

Okay.

But also I think, you know, part of that is, this is what

we were talking about last night was around if you've

got a client coming to us that don't know what they

want, meeting a sales team that don't know what they're

selling, leave a party at that point are likely to say that

they dunno what they're doing.

'cause they kind of wanna be in that position

where like, you know, they're leading this,

they know what they want.

Of course they do.

What happens is you end up with complete mush that

comes out the back of it.

'cause nobody really understands.

Nobody understands what the client needed, what

they really wanted.

Hmm.

Matched with something that, you know, that company or that

organization can offer, which actually comes to something

that is gonna genuinely benefit both parties.

and I think, you know, for me, I haven't seen that.

I haven't seen that here.

I think, you know, for us, I'm, I'm quite comfortable

for confident with, you know, how the sales

team approach clients.

They're, they're respectful.

There's, there's sort of no force in terms

of over compliance.

You know, we're not saying what, what I hate to kind

of see other organisations is saying, come to us,

we'll fix your EAA for you.

You don't need to do it.

No.

If you are saying to clients or customers that we will

fix your EAA compliance for you, then that's the

wrong partner for you.

Yeah.

In my opinion.

if you're going to, to organisations that are saying,

look, we will partner with you, we will work with you.

We are gonna give you the resources that we know and

we've tried and tested, we're gonna match that

with your expectations and look at your skill level.

and we're gonna help you get to that.

You know, we're gonna work together, you know,

as a collaboration.

for me, that's the right way to go and that's what

the EEA should be doing.

and obviously when we're talking about all the

others, a DA compliance or the, you know, all the bits

that we kind of see, what we shouldn't be using is

those words to, to kind of confuse people and get

people to kind of buy into products that they actually

either don't need or isn't, isn't the match for them.

yeah.

So I think that's, that's kind of the

approach that I've seen.

I'm, I'm really comfortable with how, how

I think we do it here.

I can't speak on, I can't speak on behalf of others, you

know, 'cause that's, that's of course types of them process.

But, you know, for me it's just been, you know, what

I value is transparency, honesty, and actually just.

Let's work together, let's collaborate on something and

make sure that actually it's a good experience for everybody.

Because if we're doing that, that person's likely

to either want to come back and need more help, which is

great, but actually they're more likely to maybe move to

another organization and take that knowledge with them.

Yeah.

Which is why I'm here.

that in the accessible industry, why,

why are we here?

I think that's kind of the question is that, you know,

what I want to do is I want to upskill somebody that

goes and makes the world just that little bit better

and then feels comfortable to go to another company

taking that knowledge with them and spread that with

another 10 people that get it.

Yeah.

And then those 10 people go out to, and, and it

just means actually, rather than focus on, you know,

budgets and money and things like that, we should be

focusing on evolution of, of that, of that knowledge.

People being able to really recognize it,

take that forward.

So yeah, if we get to that, I think we're winning.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Love it.

And, it's, it's, sorry, just very quickly on

that point as well.

It was that kind of risk by association almost as well

because if you are bringing in your partnering with

a company that would just buy your tool, your tool

bar or whatever it is, your solution and not really know

what they're doing with it.

Yeah.

It's gonna make your tool look crap to, I'm probably

have to bleep that, but like, it's gonna make it like, you

know, misrepresentation is what it's, and again, it's,

it's, it's about, you know, if we go, if we're go into

a website and, you know, it's, it's awful and you

know, do you know what some people are, are still at

that point at the moment, which is absolutely fine.

We've never heard of accessibility.

Great.

What we shouldn't be doing at that point is

stringing them up and going, well, if you didn't know

about it, that's awful.

You're an awful person.

Yeah, right.

What we should be doing is going well, that's great.

Do you know about it?

And if they say no.

We should be.

Right?

Let's bring them in, have the discussion of what

it is, if they choose not to do anything with it.

And three is down the line, they still haven't decided

that they're gonna do anything with the website.

I wouldn't wanna partner with them.

Why, why would anybody want, you know, their tools or, you

know, any of their services or anything on a site that goes

against what their core values are and their core beliefs.

So, you know, for me, what we do have, this is what I lead.

Okay.

So part of that is around the, the consultancy aspect.

Okay.

Yeah.

So yes, we have toolbar, we've got other tools

internally that can help with compliance and

accessibility, checking and automated approaches and

all the magic stuff that we generally talk about.

Um.

From my perspective, you know, we're also looking at, well

that's great, but how do we test with real world testers?

How do we bring manual testing into that discussion?

How do we make our clients feel comfortable about

that manual aspect of it?

but then how do we then turn all of that into something

that they can then actually use their company to

improve what they're doing?

they're the sort of people I wanna, I want

to sort of partner with.

and you know, so far every, all of the clients that

I've worked with, that's the approach we've taken.

I love it.

Absolutely love it.

And, you know, I think that that is, you know, that

takes it away from just being a product that you're

selling people to actually a product that you, you

know, you do sell, but you truly believe in and you,

you truly support as well.

So, you know, we obviously have con, you know,

consultancy that kind of wraps around that to

help, if we see a site that isn't accessible.

We wouldn't do is just go, well, there's the toolbar.

Thanks very much.

We're not gonna do anything else with it.

We'd give them options.

so it's around, look, your site could be improved.

Here's some guidance.

This is something that you can go do.

Go and read this.

Go and understand it a little bit more.

If you need our help in a bit more depth,

then come and find us.

We're happy to go through that.

so that's what happens.

So when, when the toolbar goes on, it is wrapped with

a huge amount of support around that, just to make

sure that that person's okay.

And, you know, we, what we don't do is, is kind of dump

a toolbar onto a website and then never look back at it.

It's kind of, yeah, the toolbar goes on and it gets

continually monitored, with customer success managers

that help make sure that it's working as it should be.

but also again, it goes back down to if, if we

see that the client isn't doing what we believe in.

Then, you know, from our perspective that that

relationship starts to, starts to die out or it ends.

So, you know, I think that's a really important

part of, you know, if we, if we've got overlay tool by

providers, don't sell and run.

It's not about that.

It's about looking at how you can work with somebody to

make it better for them, but then continually monitor and

support that going forwards.

I think that's kind of, I think that's what we

need to get better at.

Yeah, definitely in the industry.

Definitely.

A hundred percent.

I think, yeah, I think it is one of those things,

and that's a misconception that, that is there.

I think people are sort of, you're taking the human

element, you're taking the manual aspect and, and

removing people from the, the process by utilizing at all.

But actually.

Having that hand in hand is probably the best approach.

'cause we need to make the most of innovation

and technology that we've got these days to

make our lives easier.

You know, we do that with everything.

So.

No, I love that.

but you did mention a bit about the coaching

and, and, consultancy side of things as well.

So I'm gonna just sort of skip ahead to another

question, around that.

So I see myself as quite a visual vocational learner.

So one thing I love about your work and what I've seen online

is the content that you share publicly, on, on LinkedIn

is where I see it anyway.

and it just sort of includes loads of like, tidbits of

advice and practical sort of, sort of guides on

accessibility, auditing or testing and, how

to interpret, interpret complex guidelines and

demystifying the sort of regulat regulations

and things like that.

So.

Could you share here?

I guess some go-to methods or like the, the sort of

standard things that you'd be like, this is, this is

what people need to be doing.

Well, yeah.

I, I think if I'm honest with you, a lot of it come

from, in terms of my journey into accessibility, what I

quickly got overwhelmed with just how complicated people

can make accessibility.

And that, that goes back to what we said earlier.

If somebody doesn't really truly understand the context

and you know, they're not disability confident,

they don't understand why we're doing this stuff,

then those are the wrong type of people to then be

writing guidance about it.

sure.

And when you're starting out in this, you don't

know who those people are.

Yeah.

So you'll read whatever you can possibly get

your hands on to go.

And actually what I found really quickly was a, I was

getting super overwhelmed with just stuff come out

my ears thinking how am I gonna know all of this stuff?

Um.

But then also I found like just definitions

were overly complicated, like really complicated.

And one of them that I, you know, I always recommend to

people when I, when I talk about wca, my opening line is

don't go diving in head first.

Don't do it.

You don't need to do that to yourself.

what I would strongly suggest is, you know,

approaching it from understand the context first.

Go and learn a bit about disability and lived

experience and you know, then go and try and work out what

you're gonna do next with it.

so that's what I wanted to try and do with my LinkedIn.

I wanted to bring in, bite sized kind of learning.

I wanted, I wanted learning that somebody

could go, whether they're on the bus or the tube.

I don't wanna have to sit there and read for 20 minutes

to try and get the point.

I just wanna go, you know what, if you can't get this

yeah, within 20 seconds, that's not your fault.

That's my fault for not writing it clear enough.

and that's kind of what I've always done.

So.

For me, it's around how do I make sure that if

I'm putting stuff out there, A, it's accurate,

it needs to be accurate.

B, I'm not overcomplicating it, and three, if my

12-year-old son doesn't understand it, then I need to

go back and write it again.

Yeah.

and he loves it when I give him stuff and go, you can

read this, you can tell it is, so I'm in your work.

Yes.

It kind of sits and goes, what you, what's that?

So actually, you know, there's certain things that

I do put in there sometimes.

So a, a good example was, I put into something the other

day, cognitive functionality or co cognitive function.

and those are in industry, probably recognize

it and that's great.

However, my son was like.

I don't get what that is.

Can you?

Right.

If you don't get what it is in this, that's not your fault.

Let's, let me go back and re reword that.

so actually that was a kind of a, a moment of me to go, well,

yeah, let's take a step back.

So, you know, for me it's, I I think LinkedIn

is an amazing platform.

I've used it for a couple of different reasons.

One is, through recruitment.

Yeah.

So you, that's, that's kind of where I, I even swatted

my role, which is great.

bite-size learning.

But what I've also found, with LinkedIn as well, and

this is like kind of a mega tip that I found, before,

was actually yes, that's a brand, that's your personal

brand out in the industry to help you with that stuff.

but also you can get into so many people's pockets really

quickly and really easily if you are really consistent and

you could be trusted if you're the right person for that.

and you know, what I found was actually.

Navigating big organisations where you've got a lot of,

internal sort of stoppers or, I dunno, you're looking

at specific campaigns over a certain month and

actually you are trying to deliver something that

is more in the moment.

And now sometimes, what I found with Access Spotlight

Champions and advocacy networks is sometimes your

internal comms platform doesn't quite align with the

speed and pace that you need.

but then you realize that most of the people that you're

gonna talk to internally are on LinkedIn as well.

So connect with them all is what I did.

and you know, something that I, I've also had some

really good feedback from, from people that have done

this is I've connected with other people that are in my

organization and as long as I'm really careful with what

I put out there and I respect and trust, you know, internal.

The internal aspects of what the organisations I'm working

at at the moment, are about.

So I'm not gonna give client names out.

I'm not gonna go and give industry secrets out, never

gonna slate the company that, you know, I might be

working with over there, or they never gonna do that.

Keep it positive.

and what I found is actually I can actually reach a lot

of the employees and staff quicker through LinkedIn Yeah.

Than I can by my internal comms platform.

and actually that's for me, especially if you're looking

at growing your champions networks and your advocacy,

in the firm is that was a really quick and easy way

just to get a message out to people and go, look, next time

you send that email, don't say please see response below

in blue, because obviously from our perspective Yeah.

So just that kind of learning.

Yeah.

Why are you doing that?

It's because actually you, you put blue text on there

and actually someone with a color vision deficiency or you

know, somebody that's using a screen reader, it's never

gonna announce that it's blue to them and they can't see it.

So actually it makes it difficult to see what Yeah.

Comment.

You've reply back, say, you know, for me it's like there's

a tip, put it out on LinkedIn, make sure it's really clear

and it could be understood in, you know, 10 seconds or less.

And then push that out.

And actually what you find is that gets into your staff's

pocket usually quicker than through your internal route.

Yeah, no, that's great.

That's brilliant.

And I think sometimes if people, they might

even be perusing.

LinkedIn for other reasons.

They might be a bit disgruntled in their job, and

then they're sort of looking at what's out there, but

then they see something like that and there's someone else

in the company that cares about accessibility and is

trying to do the right thing.

If that's where their, you know, values are, then

it might sway them to go, actually, I'm gonna reach

out to you internally now and build that.

You know, it's brilliant.

I think that's a, a great way to build those networks.

It happens.

it, it, it starts in somebody walking up to you and going,

oh, I've seen that thing you wrote on LinkedIn.

Yeah.

And you, the next question for me is like,

what thing was that?

'cause obviously it's, you know, but actually it's,

it goes back to like, do you know what, I never would've

perhaps connected with that person if they hadn't have

gone through their LinkedIn in this is the most important

thing in their own time.

Yeah.

You know, so you've gotta think.

Comms usually go out in works time.

Yeah.

Internal comms go out, works time usually, and

you read it in works time.

LinkedIn social media platforms go out in their

time, so actually they'll be laying in bed at 10

o'clock at night or, you know, on the tube or doing

something or whatever it is.

And you may actually pop up on their, on their feed

in their time when they've got time to read it.

Yeah.

And you get much more impact.

So it's kind of, it made sense to do it.

I don't do it for myself.

I really don't.

I genuinely enjoy, I genuinely enjoy getting people to,

to understand accessibility a little bit more and then

seeing the questions come back so I learn from it as well.

So I get, that's kind of the benefit I get, is

that I get an insight to what people are thinking.

So I can go, well actually let's, let's

improve what I'm doing.

Yeah.

Do that.

So, yeah.

So I guess it invites a bit of a response as well.

'cause I mean, some of the things that you've shared, um.

To, to me now, I'm like, oh, you know, that makes perfect

sense, you know, covering your screen if you're gonna

start using a screen reader to test if it works and if

you can navigate the, the, the site or whatever it might be.

And I'm like, oh yeah, well of course you'd do that.

But without seeing that, it didn't really, I was

like, well, how would you just close your eyes,

but you tempted to peek?

Like, do you know what I mean?

It's, that, that post you're, you are talking about Joe.

I've, in, in the past I've spent an hour to two hours

crafting a post and going, this is gonna be the one

that's, you know, gonna get into, you know, a lot of

people and people are gonna get benefit out of this.

And you kind of push the boat out and you think nothing

happens and you go, oh, okay.

That maybe that wasn't quite right.

that post, I wrote that I was in a hotel room.

I'd gone up to Newcastle to, to kind of meet

the recite team.

I was in a hotel and I just thought.

Yeah, I just popped out.

It took me five minutes to write that post, five

minutes to write the post.

I took the picture genuinely.

So people ask me, do, do you actually, do I

genuinely do that at home?

It's something that I do.

yeah, something I do tell clients to do, and I, you

know, it's, it's the process.

I've not made that up.

I put it out at that post alone.

we were, I think the last time I looked that was going up to

300,000 people had seen that.

Wow.

My God.

And you would never, yeah.

So it's, it's, you know, for us, when we're talking

about spending budget and looking at money, and

going, well, I haven't got investment budget on that.

I'm genuinely, and there's a lot of people out there

that can do the same thing.

And you know, that's, you know, there's a lot of

people out that I follow.

that's the level of impact you can have.

From sharing your knowledge of being really open and

transparent and, and just spending a little bit of

time thinking about how can other people get the

best out of this post.

and for me that was kind of, if, if I'm honest, it took

my, it took me out at the knees a little bit 'cause

I was a bit like, that took me literally five minutes.

But the amount of impact you can have off of those

types of posts, can have a massive impact.

So I, you know, I think for me it's, something that I get,

that's where I get the benefit and that's where I get kind

of the kick out of doing it is when I can see people going,

light bulb moment, Chris.

Got it.

I'm gonna share that with my team.

Yeah.

and yeah, that's, that's why I do it.

Awesome.

So, I mean, hopefully you'll get some marketing budget

given your way now because of all of that you've been

able to do just from your LinkedIn post in, who knows?

I mean, he's only four or five months in, but I'm

already asking, Recite Me to give you a raise.

no, I mean,

you know, for, from our perspective as

well is, you know, um.

I, I love the way that our social media, our, our team,

our marketing team as well, their approach as well has

just been really refreshing from what I've seen.

So, coming in, coming in and having those conversations

with, with the, you know, the marketing team and

going, well, what is it?

How, how are we working?

and some of the things that I've seen them do and some of

the sort of posts I've seen them write are brilliant.

Really, really brilliant.

And it's kinda like, why, why are we not

getting this out further?

And it, it goes back down to, to kind of that reach

into the market and going, well, actually, we want to

be in that position where we can really help people.

And we've got really good, talented people that are

writing some amazing stuff that are ready to listen.

Get 'em involved.

So yeah, I think, I think probably from, from a

marketing perspective, if you've got other organisations

that are in the same position, get them involved.

So I've got marketing team involved in IAP membership.

I've got them looking at how can we make our comms even

more inclusive than they are.

how we challenging that, how we, you know, re-platforming

things, you know, are we sending too many emails out

that are confusing people?

Are we sending not enough that don't give enough context?

That sort of stuff.

So I think, yeah, it's really important to, to

kind of, you know, look at the social media as being

a very small part of that.

It's not the only part.

but also looking at, you know, how your marketing teams are

actually being, you know, how they can be aligned to

your recruitment process.

You know, how can they be aligned to your

procurement process?

What are they doing to help with, making sure

the platform's internal.

Are inclusive for your leadership to use.

You know, so it's all those things that stitch together.

So yeah, I think marketing team is, is hugely,

hugely important in, in your organisations.

I think we need to focus on it.

Influential definitely to the success for sure.

awesome.

Right.

So, I guess, so kind of final question before final

thoughts, 'cause I know I could talk to you all day

long, but I know we've both got other things to do.

as someone that I would say is quite unfamiliar with the

offerings of Recite Me, are there any sort of plans to go

beyond this is an assumption.

I believe that the, the toolbar and the, the products

that are offered are mostly around web, sort of platforms

or websites and things.

But is there, is there a mobile version of Recite Me or

is there plans to go into that space or VR or AR and all?

No, that's a good question.

It's a good question.

So, um.

I think probably the easiest answer at the moment, 'cause

obviously some of it we're, we're kind of working on

is, is watch the space.

Yeah.

Really, really watch the space because, you know, we are in

a position where, you know, we know toolbars very well.

That's what we've done for so long, you know,

we're really good at it.

and, you know, those other platforms around consultancy,

what are we doing, you know, to improve that?

Well, there's, there's new tools coming in daily.