Gary gets the basics of beer from Bobby and Allison this week and we all learn a thing or two! What actually makes up a beer? If it's only four ingredients, how are there so many varieties of beer? What makes a sour different from an IPA or an ale from a lager?
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CREDITS
Hosts:
Music by Sarah Lynn Huss
Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow
Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co
Welcome back to respecting the beer.
2
:My name is Gary Arndt and with me
as usual is brewer, Bobby Fleschman
3
:and Alison McCoy Fleschman.
4
:How are you guys doing?
5
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Doing great.
6
:Gary Arndt: Great.
7
:We've talked about kind of the
origin superhero story of you guys,
8
:how you got into beer, how you
started the brewery and why anyone
9
:wants to do this is probably crazy.
10
:Now we want to start getting
into beer and talking about beer.
11
:And I am reminded of something
that was said in a Supreme court
12
:decision by justice, Stuart Potter.
13
:It was a court case on pornography.
14
:And he basically said, I
don't know if I can define it,
15
:but I know it when I see it.
16
:And that has been the working
definition of pornography by the
17
:Supreme court ever since with
beer, most people would identify
18
:a beer if they were served a beer.
19
:But if you were to ask people
what beer is, I don't know
20
:if most people could do it.
21
:So.
22
:The question then is what's beer?
23
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: What is beer?
24
:Bobby Fleshman: That's funny.
25
:We, uh, beer porn exists in my life.
26
:So you can grab that together.
27
:That's the title of the
28
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: folder
for all of the beer photos.
29
:We have is the beer, the
good photos is the beer porn.
30
:Bobby Fleshman: Have I mentioned,
we have a tank on display
31
:showing beer happen in real time.
32
:Anyway, I digress.
33
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: What is beer?
34
:Bobby Fleshman: What is beer?
35
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: There
are four ingredients in beer.
36
:Bobby Fleshman: Well, without going
into a deep dive of the thousands
37
:and thousands and thousands of years
prior to beer or whatever, what is
38
:going on is fermentation, right?
39
:And if you go back in time, that might
have been grapes, it might have been
40
:honey, it eventually became beer.
41
:Cultivated malt or barley that
was malted and that became beer.
42
:We'll go into all of that, but
fermentation happens everywhere in nature.
43
:I think there are primates that get
drunk on fruits that naturally ferment.
44
:And
45
:Gary Arndt: just for the kids who
didn't pay attention in science class.
46
:Fermentation
47
:Bobby Fleshman: is what?
48
:Fermentation.
49
:Uh, not
50
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: fun at all.
51
:It's when he's pooped out alcohol.
52
:It's quite lovely,
53
:Bobby Fleshman: right?
54
:Yeah.
55
:There's a lot of ways that we could
take that yeast pooping out alcohol.
56
:That's one really carbon
57
:Allison McCoy Fleshman:
dioxide and some other things.
58
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
59
:The, the yeast that brewers work with
is what I know best, but I've had some
60
:nights where I would be defined as yeast,
61
:Allison McCoy Fleshman:
you know, that's yep.
62
:Okay.
63
:Bobby Fleshman: So yeah, taking glucose.
64
:which is a simple sugar and turning it
into alcohol and carbon dioxide is the
65
:process that I'm most familiar with.
66
:And, and that's, that's
what brewers think about.
67
:There are lots of.
68
:Parallel processes that create
the flavors of what we call beer.
69
:But that is the very most basic
way to describe what's happening.
70
:We take fungus from nature that we
call yeast, single cell fungus, and
71
:that they, they then are fed sugar
and we give them the right conditions.
72
:They make alcohol for us from, from
barley that has been prepared for them.
73
:And Alison's shaking.
74
:She wants to go back or I'm just, I'm
75
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: just in
terms of a, um, There's a very
76
:general idea of what is beer.
77
:We often joke that it's liquid bread.
78
:And so the ingredients in bread,
you've got your flour, you've got
79
:your yeast, you've probably got
some other additives and such.
80
:But beer really is grain,
water, yeast, and hops.
81
:Those four simple things come together.
82
:Now, granted the coming together
is where you just dove right into.
83
:Um, but you know, it's, it's
84
:Bobby Fleshman: kind of
what is fermentation.
85
:Well, that's what makes a beer.
86
:Yeah.
87
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Um,
so is that the question then?
88
:Is it, what point does it become a beer?
89
:Gary Arndt: Well, yeah.
90
:And that, that's why I asked the
question because it really is
91
:Allison McCoy Fleshman:
something that, that, that
92
:Gary Arndt: most people probably,
you know, again, they know when
93
:they see it, but what is it?
94
:Yeah.
95
:Wine undergoes
96
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: fermentation.
97
:Gary Arndt: There are other
beverages that do as well.
98
:We don't recognize those as beer.
99
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: I think one of
the disconnects might be is that you'll
100
:drink pre fermented wine as in just
grape juice, but you normally don't drink
101
:pre fermented beer, which is the word.
102
:It's the sugar water that
you get from the grain.
103
:I enjoy it.
104
:You do, and you're weird.
105
:A lot of people enjoy that.
106
:It's not, it's fine.
107
:It's sweet.
108
:You can definitely tell.
109
:Lots of
110
:Bobby Fleshman: energy there.
111
:You can
112
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: get
the, the precursors of the
113
:beer that it will become.
114
:But those yeast really do do some magic.
115
:Bobby Fleshman: I will try not to throw
winemakers under the bus, but there are
116
:a lot of compounds found in beer health
wise that are not found in wine and that
117
:includes certain proteins and minerals
and well, tannins are found in wine, of
118
:course, but you get those in beer as well.
119
:So where, where are we defining beer?
120
:When did, when did it become beer?
121
:I, I think I should have said those
yeast are consuming glucose, but they
122
:start in beer as consuming maltose.
123
:Maltose is two sugars that are
linked together in a certain way.
124
:And to the best of my knowledge,
uh, wine yeast is not terribly great
125
:at working with those molecules.
126
:We have selected over time as
brewers, those, those yeast that
127
:can, can metabolize them, ultimately
turning them into what we call beer.
128
:So,
129
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: but we often
laugh in the brewery how you just make
130
:work like the brewers just make the work.
131
:The yeast make the beer.
132
:Right.
133
:So it's really a yeast centric.
134
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
135
:We pamper them.
136
:We make it just exactly
how they need it to be.
137
:And we add oxygen and
we add all these things.
138
:And then when they're done,
we flush them down the drain.
139
:I mean, they, they live a luxurious
experience or they make it to a, the
140
:belly of a cow, but they're, they have
an end soon after they make the beer.
141
:But we do pamper them.
142
:We understand our use really well.
143
:And I think there's a
little more terroir in the.
144
:In the wine world, you sort of let
things go with the seasons, but with
145
:beer, you have strict control over
every single variable to make the same
146
:product every time, even though we are
dealing with variable inputs because
147
:it's an agricultural product by nature.
148
:It's just sort of the, so the two natures
of those two industries, we celebrate
149
:vintage with wine and we tend to expect
the same every time from a brewer,
150
:that's a big diet, a sidetrack, but.
151
:Yeah.
152
:Just, just painting way out.
153
:Remember the
154
:Allison McCoy Fleshman:
question was what is beer?
155
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
156
:What is beer?
157
:I think, I think you have to start
by, by the modern definition.
158
:This is, this is really motivated
by modern Germany, modern England.
159
:You have to start with barley.
160
:And you have to germinate that
and do what we call malt it, which
161
:is to say germinate and sprouts.
162
:I won't go into germination too in
depth, but you trick that seed into
163
:growing, it becomes softer and then
we cut that process short and cook
164
:it to generate some toasty flavors.
165
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's pretty
much like a, um, like a, Barley oatmeal.
166
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah, really kind of is.
167
:And then we just drain off the
water and we leave the sludge.
168
:Yeah.
169
:And you wouldn't even have to malt it.
170
:It does not
171
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: sound sexy at all.
172
:Bobby Fleshman: Oh, you
mean in the brewing process?
173
:Yeah.
174
:Yeah.
175
:But to jump forward to the brewing
process is to dis, it's to disregard
176
:everything that's done before the brewer
starts because the brewer starts with.
177
:Malt and malt is created by
what are known as monsters.
178
:And monsters are people who soften that
grain and prepare it for the brewer.
179
:Let's just take
180
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: a moment
and think about what the business
181
:card says or how you would
introduce yourself on an airplane.
182
:I'm a monster,
183
:Bobby Fleshman: right?
184
:It's just awesome.
185
:Exactly.
186
:Yeah.
187
:It's a, it's a spelling you used
to over time, but so there you go.
188
:So modern in modern definition, the
modern definition of what is beer.
189
:You need to start with a
barley and sometimes wheat.
190
:And you need to somehow get
access to those starches inside.
191
:And the maltsters have figured
that out, but so a brewer
192
:is independent of maltsters.
193
:So here we go.
194
:we hydrate it , in the brewery and we
boil it and I'll get into all those steps
195
:that precede the, the adding of the yeast.
196
:But here we go.
197
:Allison McCoy Fleshman:
I'm just here to dive deep.
198
:Yep.
199
:Go for it.
200
:Bobby Fleshman: At the end of the
day, you're making a concoction
201
:that yeast can ferment, and it
would end up being too sweet.
202
:So we have chosen over time, different
kinds of spices to balance that sweetness.
203
:So we've got the alcohol hooray, but now
we're looking for a palatable product.
204
:And we've landed on in
modern context hops.
205
:So that the hops give you that, that
bitterness to balance that sweetness
206
:against, and that really does
summarize what it is to be a beer.
207
:You really have just that grain
in that water with that yeast.
208
:Plus those hops.
209
:So the
210
:Gary Arndt: alcohol comes
from the conversion of sugars.
211
:Where's the sugar coming from?
212
:Is it added or is it coming naturally from
213
:Bobby Fleshman: the malt?
214
:So malt is, they're sometimes
called berries in other contexts.
215
:They're, they're grass.
216
:It's grass that we've cultivated
over the, over 10, 000 years.
217
:Uh, selected it for making bread and beer.
218
:And they, they've been selected to
make larger and larger kernels, seeds,
219
:berries, depends on your context.
220
:And at the center of those
seeds are these starchy centers.
221
:And that starchy center is, is
what gives those sugars once
222
:you break that starch down.
223
:Gary Arndt: In the creation
of spirits like whiskey, which
224
:is also grain based, there's a
process where they create a mash.
225
:But obviously it's, it's,
it's later distilled.
226
:Where does that process diverge
from beer making at what
227
:Bobby Fleshman: point?
228
:Right.
229
:So the thing about making spirits is
you're not, you're really mostly looking
230
:to produce ethanol at the end of the day.
231
:You're not really worried about any so
called off flavors that might come about
232
:by mistreatment of your fermentation.
233
:Now, I'm not a distiller, and I know
that there is some thought and some
234
:science behind what gets transferred in
distillation from, from the, the wash,
235
:which is what it's called in that context.
236
:But in general, you're just looking
for, for ethanol production.
237
:So you're still have your, your
yeast combined with your, with your
238
:wash and that's breaking down those
starches into sugars and alcohol.
239
:And then that gets distilled off and
the rest of, so it's, you start with
240
:a really low quality grain in general,
because you're just looking for something
241
:to fuel that ethanol production.
242
:But with beer, you're looking for
the whole profile, nothing escapes.
243
:So you have to nail the whole process in
terms of fermentation temperatures, the
244
:most obvious pH there's mineral content.
245
:There's so many different things you got
to think about because those yeast have
246
:got to be top performers and the yeast
itself, by the way, because the, the
247
:yeast that you can use to make Spirit.
248
:It really is just needs to be robust.
249
:It doesn't need to have any
finesse at all involved.
250
:So that's really where they diverge
because once you have your fermented wash,
251
:you, you can then go about separating
that from your grain and then you can
252
:distill it off and produce your spirit.
253
:But with beer, you're, like I said, you're
taking that, that fermentation all the way
254
:to completion, and then you make sure that
that beer stays cold and carbonated and.
255
:Ultimately, uh, you might even
add hops in the fermenter.
256
:There's a lot of feed that's
along the way for beer.
257
:Well, another thing is
258
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: that the color
that you get, so the difference of the
259
:color from like a whiskey or a beer,
the beer, the color originates from the
260
:grain, whereas a whiskey, you're probably
going to have it originate from the
261
:barrels that it was aged and it would have
started clear when it was in the barrels.
262
:So that mash even though it kind
of up to that point of extracting
263
:the sugars from the grain but then
with the beer, there's so much more.
264
:Residual, not residual, but a
history of that mash in the glass.
265
:You're actually drinking.
266
:Whereas not necessarily
the same with spirits,
267
:Bobby Fleshman: right?
268
:You, you, you order your barrels.
269
:If you make bourbon, you order them
with a certain char and a certain toast.
270
:You can see this with wine as well.
271
:You're, you're getting flavors and colors
from your barrels and the spirit world.
272
:Yeah, it's all very clear in the
spirit world and the spirit world.
273
:Gary Arndt: Okay.
274
:So.
275
:Then hops.
276
:Right?
277
:So you talked about four ingredients.
278
:Mm-Hmm.
279
:. Yeah.
280
:And then this is the traditional
German ridings height.
281
:Kobo.
282
:Mm-Hmm.
283
:. You have water, yeast, malt, and hops.
284
:So we've kind of talked about the malt.
285
:The yeast makes the alcohol.
286
:Water is obviously water.
287
:Where do the hops come into play?
288
:Bobby Fleshman: Is it
at what, by what stage?
289
:In the process?
290
:In the process?
291
:Yeah.
292
:The, the motivation was to balance
that and also the preservative
293
:property, balance that sweetness.
294
:But then the.
295
:Preservation of that
liquid is also important.
296
:I think that was plenty of the
elder and later Hildegard von
297
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: being in, yeah,
298
:Bobby Fleshman: of Germany,
299
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Bavaria.
300
:Bobby Fleshman: I'm sorry.
301
:Yeah.
302
:I'm not sure it was several
303
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: hundred something.
304
:Bobby Fleshman: I defer to Gary
on the history there, but we
305
:was Hildegard of being in St.
306
:Hildegard.
307
:She was an Abbess who.
308
:It's extensively on beer, botanist
and astronomer and all kinds of rumor
309
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: has it.
310
:She was the first one to add the hops.
311
:Bobby Fleshman: Well, she was the one
to identify the, uh, preservative nature
312
:of hops in beer, as far as I know.
313
:But when did it become, you
asked when in the process, is
314
:it, is it coming into play?
315
:So if you take, if you take hops,
there's, there's a couple of things
316
:that we, we use them for in terms of.
317
:The, the flavor one is the bitterness.
318
:Coincidentally also gives you
that preservative quality, but
319
:you get flavors and aromas too.
320
:And there's these oil, the
essential oils that are involved and
321
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: the exact same
type that are the fresh cut grass smell.
322
:You get terpenes.
323
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
324
:There's all sorts of oils that we look
at in, in, It hops in a modern context.
325
:In the old days, you might not
have cared much about that.
326
:You might've been focused only on the
bittering and on the preservative quality.
327
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: And when
you say bittering, you mean to
328
:balance out the sweetness of
329
:Bobby Fleshman: the malt?
330
:So in the old days, you would just
throw those hops into a boiling
331
:kettle of this, what we call wort.
332
:And that wort is that liquid that's
been separated from that grain
333
:and it contains all those sugars
that will later become alcohol.
334
:So you, in that boil, you toss these hops
and you let it boil a quite a long time.
335
:And in modern times, 60 minutes and older
times when you didn't have as strong
336
:of a boil, it might take three hours.
337
:So they would toss these whole cone hops.
338
:They look a lot like they're
cousins to cousin, that they are
339
:a little bit like marijuana when
you see them for the first time.
340
:But you can pull them off like
a little, uh, kind of meets, uh,
341
:I was going to say artichoke.
342
:But you just can, you toss them
in right off the, off the plant,
343
:boil it for 60 minutes or more.
344
:And you're going to be mostly
left with that bittering acid
345
:and not much else except for that
preservative, preservative quality.
346
:But now in later times, we've been,
We've been breeding these hops to
347
:give us more aromas and more flavors.
348
:We've really latched onto that.
349
:And that's not something that Germany did.
350
:Germany didn't care so much
about that feature of hops.
351
:And so it really took an American hop
revolution to take us where we are today.
352
:So that's about 50 years of.
353
:Of hop breeding in the U
S to give us those aromas.
354
:And those, and then those hops
don't get put in for 60 minutes.
355
:Those hops get thrown into that kettle
at the moment that you stop boiling.
356
:Cause you don't want to lose those oils.
357
:You also might just throw them in like a
tea into a finished beer and then steep
358
:them and that's called dry hopping.
359
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: I was just going
to push you along to say that you can
360
:really, I, in the Boiling before you add
the yeast, it's boiling, then you have
361
:to chill it really quickly, but you can
add the, add the hops pretty much any
362
:time when that boils going all the way
through to, you can even add it after
363
:it's done fermenting, it's been in the
keg, it's come into the glass and then
364
:you can actually add it into your beer
as you're sitting here and drinking it.
365
:So there's actually no, you
should consider doing that.
366
:It's a garnish.
367
:It's very aggressive hop
368
:Bobby Fleshman: garnish.
369
:Well, we've done it actually lion's tail.
370
:I'll give a shout out to a brewery nearby.
371
:We,
372
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: they have
those fancy tea mug things that,
373
:that they fill with hops and then
they pour the beer through and then
374
:you let it steep for a few minutes.
375
:Um, it's quite, again, it's
aggressive in the hop flavor.
376
:When you do that,
377
:Bobby Fleshman: Alison's not a huge fan.
378
:I like my multi beer.
379
:I think she likes the balance they
provide, but beyond that, she, that's
380
:the limitation of her love for hops.
381
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: They're lovely.
382
:Gary Arndt: that, I now kind of want to
do a speed round because each one of these
383
:things I'm going to bring up and some that
you're going to have to bring up we can
384
:do full deep dive episodes on, but there's
a lot of terms out there that people have
385
:heard beer is obviously an overarching
kind of thing, but now that I want you
386
:to kind of briefly describe and explain
what each of the, the types of beer are.
387
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Oh.
388
:Gary Arndt: And let's start with an ale.
389
:What is, is, is an ale a subset of beer?
390
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yes.
391
:I would say it's, so the ales are
going to be the top fermenting yeast.
392
:So the, the yeast will either find
their way, um, when they're, they've
393
:been thrown in the beer or the wort's
been cooled, the yeast go in to eat the
394
:sugars and make CO2 and make ethanol
which is the alcohol that we consume.
395
:And the yeast will find
themselves if they're an ale,
396
:they will float to the top.
397
:Of the vessel.
398
:And if they are a logger,
they will float to the jet.
399
:Don't really float to the bottom.
400
:Is that a phrase?
401
:Sing to the bottom.
402
:But yes, and the Ailes with that
have a slightly different feel.
403
:They're creamier, they're boxer.
404
:More robust in malt flavor.
405
:They're just overall more glorious
because I might be partial to the ales.
406
:Bobby Fleshman: I, I have an intimate
relationship with all of these
407
:fermentations that happen and, and
it's a little bit simplified to
408
:say that it's top and bottom, but
Alison's basically right there.
409
:Ales.
410
:I am very much right there.
411
:Unless it's
412
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: not an ale or a
lager and that's kind of in the middle.
413
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
414
:They tend, they tend to, those exist too.
415
:Yeah.
416
:They tend to be on top because
they tend to be fermented warmer.
417
:And when you ferment warmer, you
tend to generate, evolve carbon
418
:dioxide more quickly and it tends
to drive the yeast to the top.
419
:And if they have any, what I'll call
a flocculant characteristic, that's a,
420
:that's a word that really means do they
have a tendency to group against one
421
:another, to stick against one another.
422
:Then they tend to raft and they
tend to ride bubbles to the top.
423
:Allison McCoy Fleshman:
Little yeast parties.
424
:Yeah.
425
:It's fun.
426
:Bobby Fleshman: So when you learn, this is
for the home brewers out there, when you
427
:learn about flocculation, you're thinking
about how they family friendly show.
428
:Yeah, right.
429
:It's the F word.
430
:Once you
431
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: go flocculation.
432
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
433
:So when they, so when they group
together, they tend to make larger
434
:and larger and larger bundles.
435
:I mean, literally like 10, 000 in a
one bundle at the end of their, their,
436
:their fermentation, they will do so.
437
:And then they drop to the bottom of
your, of your fermentation vessel.
438
:And so when home brewers or anyone that's
somewhat familiar with brewing Brewing
439
:hears me say that more flocculent yeast
tend to be on the top of the vessel.
440
:It's counterintuitive and the reason
is because they're riding the carbon
441
:dioxide that's evolving from beer.
442
:Okay.
443
:Okay.
444
:That's, that's beer.
445
:Yeah.
446
:Sorry.
447
:Yeah.
448
:Pale ale.
449
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Woo.
450
:Pale ale.
451
:Awesome.
452
:So I'm going to butcher this
story, but we're going to
453
:go with it because it's fun.
454
:The, gosh, a pale ale is actually
a hoppy beer, which is frustrating.
455
:At least if it's an American pale, a
British pale, it's going to be more malty.
456
:But a pale ale is the idea that you
actually have a light colored beer.
457
:Beer and light colored was actually
very hard to do because I believe
458
:the grain when they would roast
it would always catch fire.
459
:And so they had to basically roast it
until it was dark and you get like a, like
460
:a really, really dark beer when you roast
or when you toast your bread too long,
461
:it turns dark, kind of that burnt color.
462
:Same thing with the grain.
463
:But to get it to where you were
roasting it but had enough temperature
464
:control that you could get the
grain to be just slightly amber and
465
:or light, that was actually really
hard and it was an industrial,
466
:like milestone that they reached.
467
:And the pale ale then became almost
like a, uh, a status symbol that you
468
:could afford a pale ale because it
was a very rare thing and hard to do.
469
:Did I get it right?
470
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
471
:There's, there's seven podcasts here.
472
:I won't even go into any of them.
473
:But it was like 18, 30, 000.
474
:It was burning
475
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: around the
industry revolution when, um, steam
476
:engines were all the rage, they were able
to then really control the temperature.
477
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
478
:Of the
479
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: killing.
480
:You know, without
481
:Bobby Fleshman: going into it.
482
:Allison McCoy Fleshman:
Oh, it was the Molsters.
483
:Oh, yay, the Molsters
are going to come back.
484
:I was about to say, this is
485
:Bobby Fleshman: why we have to
always bring back the Molsters.
486
:They were able to create these
light colored malts and it led to
487
:the number one malt that's ever
been made is the Pilsner malt.
488
:And it became, it led to the Czech
Pilsner, which led to the German Pilsner.
489
:We'll get to that.
490
:Yeah.
491
:Yeah.
492
:Yeah.
493
:So India pale ale.
494
:Mm.
495
:Yeah.
496
:Yeah.
497
:As I'm drinking one of
those, the original one.
498
:Yeah.
499
:English in England made
the India pale ale.
500
:And the, there are many, many stories.
501
:And I'm sure we'll talk about
this at length at some point.
502
:One of the stories is that you
would make a, hop that could
503
:survive voyage from United Kingdom
to the colonies in, uh, in India.
504
:And so one of the stories goes that
they would, they would hop up their
505
:pale ale and, and, you know, That
it would be able to survive a warm
506
:voyage across the horn of Africa.
507
:And that's some truth to that, but
the reality of it is they were sending
508
:hoppy porters more than they were
IPAs, like a factor of four to one.
509
:But nevertheless, the, the
India, the India, India pale
510
:ale originated in England.
511
:It was a pale ale that was hopped
and also more alcoholic in general.
512
:But again, you find conflicting evidence
as to, it may have been lower alcohol.
513
:In fact, But in, in every
case, it's always hoppy.
514
:Yep.
515
:Double, triple, quadruple IPA.
516
:Well, right.
517
:Is it just more hops?
518
:A lot of this is from the
American craft beer revolution.
519
:These names.
520
:The double IPA, I think,
was the, the first one was.
521
:Pliny.
522
:I know it's pronounced Pliny, but
commercially it's pronounced Pliny the
523
:Elder by Russian River Brewing Company.
524
:And that was the first of its kind,
at least it's credited as being that.
525
:And that was only in the last 20 years.
526
:So this is really in the last two
decades we see these, these monikers.
527
:A porter.
528
:Oh, that's a long answer.
529
:Allison could start on that one.
530
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's delicious.
531
:Porters are dark.
532
:Gary Arndt: You can just
run it through chat.
533
:GPT tell you to summarize one paragraph.
534
:Yeah, that's true.
535
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Porter.
536
:What's a Porter.
537
:It's not a stout.
538
:I'll say that.
539
:So Porter's going to be a sweet multi
dark something about Porter was actually
540
:the original, I believe before the stout.
541
:Bobby Fleshman: It was,
yeah, it was stout Porter.
542
:It became stout.
543
:So Porter evolved into stout.
544
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Right.
545
:And the difference between, and I always
get this confused and I always have to
546
:look it up right before I say it and
I don't have my phone in front of me.
547
:So.
548
:A stout is roasted unmalted barley.
549
:Correct.
550
:And a porter is malted, not
551
:Bobby Fleshman: roasted barley.
552
:It's roasted.
553
:But lower proportions.
554
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Lower proportions
of roasted in the recipe, but it's
555
:malted, whereas a stout is an unmalted.
556
:Roasted barley.
557
:Bobby Fleshman: Yeah.
558
:And significant proportions.
559
:Yeah.
560
:Yes.
561
:You get a lot of I did it.
562
:Yay.
563
:Yeah, you get a lot of flaked
barley as well, so you get a lot.
564
:Yeah.
565
:Well, there's a lot of that in
an Irish Stout Unmalted product.
566
:Gary Arndt: A lager and you see a lot
of beers that most people drink are a
567
:lager again, I don't know if most people
could tell you the difference between
568
:a lager and an ale or anything else.
569
:So what is a lager?
570
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Many people will
come in and say, Oh, I'll have the logger.
571
:And we're like, well, which one?
572
:And they're like, well, the
logger, like we have seven.
573
:So there's so many
different types of loggers.
574
:Bobby Fleshman: I'm not sure how to
answer that in a speed round, but it's
575
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: a top fermenting.
576
:Oh, he's all right.
577
:No bottom fermenting.
578
:There we go.
579
:The other one.
580
:Bobby Fleshman: Yes, in Germany, this
Reinheitsgebot happened, but alongside,
581
:the Reinheitsgebot defined those
ingredients by which you can make beer
582
:and call it beer, but there was also
rules of time of year that you could
583
:brew because it, beer that was brewed
in the summer would go sour and really
584
:what they did in making that rules,
they started to self select yeast
585
:that can survive the colder months.
586
:And, over time, that meant that the
ale yeast got out competed, and then
587
:you had this new kind of yeast that
could endure these colder temperatures.
588
:Uh, there's, there's a very long,
interesting story about how they connected
589
:the lager strain of yeast to other strains
in history, but very fa fascinating stuff.
590
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: And when it
comes to me versus Bobby, which is always
591
:an important thing to say I would say
that I'm the ales, you're the lagers.
592
:Cause I think ales are
just so much better.
593
:Bobby Fleshman: I'm
drinking an ale right now.
594
:Allison McCoy Fleshman:
No, that's not fair.
595
:Loggers are, I think are technically
more challenging to do, to make.
596
:Bobby Fleshman: They are the
technical Marvel and it really
597
:took the German approach to
brewing to make them what they are.
598
:And they led to a million different
innovations along the way.
599
:Pilsner.
600
:Speaking of modern Marvels.
601
:Yeah.
602
:Yeah.
603
:Pilsner may be the quintessential,
maybe the peak of the mountain in
604
:terms of, uh, beer making prowess.
605
:Everybody says order the Pilsner
first when you go to a brewery.
606
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: It's true.
607
:It's just like when you go to
a diner and it's like, you just
608
:start with the bacon and eggs.
609
:If they can't do eggs, right.
610
:You don't even care about the omelet
that they're going to screw up.
611
:Bobby Fleshman: And the, and the
Germans make a beer called a Helles.
612
:And that is sort of the response
to the Pilsner originally.
613
:So both of those beers are the
most difficult ones to make.
614
:And in the world, in my opinion,
that I've come across, they're just
615
:perfectly balanced, clear beers that
have nothing to hide behind there.
616
:There should be very, very corrupt.
617
:What people call crushable.
618
:They should be able to be consumed
without thinking about them.
619
:But if you're a brewer, you
can get lost in the details.
620
:If they're perfectly made,
they're, they're just amazing.
621
:And there's too many, too many things to
say, to fill that speed round up a sour.
622
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Oh,
please let me talk about this one.
623
:Also delicious.
624
:The sours are, I think, the most
misunderstood type of beer in that they
625
:are normally naturally fermented with,
they'll, they'll, you'll open up the vats.
626
:So they're they're not necessarily,
Bad, but they have certain notes
627
:that in some beers would be an
indicator that they've gone bad.
628
:They're also made with pretend on
my season a lot of times, which
629
:is a different kind of yeast.
630
:Is that
631
:Bobby Fleshman: British fungus?
632
:That's how that translates.
633
:And I didn't know that
634
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: the Brits
635
:Bobby Fleshman: were the ones that.
636
:Isolated in, in inadvertently.
637
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Go team.
638
:Anyway, so it's a, it's a delicious beer.
639
:But there's so many
different types of sours.
640
:I wouldn't say that there's
necessarily one kind of sour.
641
:Would you?
642
:Bobby Fleshman: No.
643
:Originally every beer was sour because
there was bacteria in all the process.
644
:There was, there wasn't a, a
microbiology didn't come about.
645
:More than 150 years ago.
646
:So you, you certainly saw that that
would happen with every single beer.
647
:And so you got, you had, you saw
people drink milds and English
648
:milds were beers that were young.
649
:They may be dark, they may be light, but
they were young and they weren't sour.
650
:And porters tended to be
sour because they were older.
651
:And then they, then the port of the,
the people working behind the bar were
652
:called publicans and they would blend
the, these milds and these porters
653
:and these sometimes stouts and they
would create your drink of choice.
654
:They have three pools.
655
:That's all they had.
656
:They had three beers to pull from.
657
:Eventually they had pales and
IPAs, but they were able to
658
:blend those to the customer spec.
659
:How sour do you want it?
660
:But yeah, there's, there's
so many episodes there.
661
:A Bach.
662
:Allison McCoy Fleshman:
Is Bobby's favorite?
663
:Bobby Fleshman: So, a bach is
to malt what IPA is to hops.
664
:What a double IPA is to hops.
665
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: That
666
:Bobby Fleshman: is true.
667
:It's extremely malty.
668
:Extremely balanced.
669
:If done well, malty doesn't mean sweet.
670
:So if you get a, a Bach, that's hard
to drink, if you can't finish a glass,
671
:but you like the flavor of it, that's
much like an indulgent dessert, right?
672
:It's not what you want to
see as a brewer though.
673
:You want someone to finish a glass and
then at that last sip want the next glass.
674
:And so that's, that's
my little soapbox about.
675
:Um, about malty versus sweet, but
yeah, you're really celebrating
676
:some of these amber malts that
the Germans have perfected.
677
:And you've, you bring up the
alcohol too, because that's
678
:a flavor component in a Bach.
679
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Yeah.
680
:One of our highest alcohol
beers is our ice Bach, which is
681
:Bobby Fleshman: 14 and a
half, 14 and a half percent.
682
:Yeah.
683
:So, but box range, you don't want to,
there's so many different kinds of box.
684
:You can even make a vice by Gertrude.
685
:It is.
686
:I bought your last bottle.
687
:Well, we have others.
688
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: She stashed away.
689
:Bobby Fleshman: We stash them away.
690
:Gary Arndt: there's A lot of
other beer types out there, but I
691
:think those are like the big ones.
692
:Bobby Fleshman: One, one worth
mentioning is, is this the smoked
693
:beer, the rauchbier, because,
because every beer was smoked.
694
:Well, no, no, no.
695
:Every beer was smoked just as every
beer was, was soured at some point
696
:because you didn't have the means
to indirectly make your, your malts.
697
:So everything was directly
fired and directly smoked.
698
:It wasn't by intention.
699
:It just came through from the process.
700
:So.
701
:So only in the modern kiln, the process by
which we, we toast our, our grain today.
702
:Can we separate the smoke from the heat
and now make not multi we're not smoky
703
:beers, but that's neither here nor there.
704
:Gary Arndt: So you have to buy like
specialty smoked malt if you want today.
705
:Bobby Fleshman: Uh, Bomberg,
Germany only makes smoked malt.
706
:There must be a dozen
breweries there that make it.
707
:And I think the rauchbier
is, I think, yeah.
708
:And they're, and they're
very drinkable, right?
709
:There, if you've had enough smoke
beers, they do do them well, but
710
:you can, you can get those out
of balance if you don't watch it.
711
:Gary Arndt: All right.
712
:I think this this is kind of a roadmap
for a lot of what we're going to be
713
:talking about in future episodes.
714
:We just covered them briefly, but
there's a lot of science, a lot of
715
:history, a lot of culture behind a
lot of these different types of beer.
716
:And we'll be covering them on future
episodes of respecting the beer.
717
:Allison McCoy Fleshman: Thanks.
718
:Bobby Fleshman: Excellent.