Everyone knows someone who says they work with animals because they hate people. Or maybe you are that someone. But what we must realize is that as animal welfare advocates we cannot separate the animals from their humans. The human-animal bond is a very important relationship, and to care for one we must acknowledge the other.

Dr. Jonathan Gonzalez is a veterinarian practicing in the State of Texas and is very passionate about fostering the relationship between animals and humans and being part of the family medical team. We will discuss the importance of client communications, how to work through hard situations and when to learn to step away, and overall how to change our outlook to improve our own mental health.

Like this episode? Help us by rating and sharing so we can reach more animal advocates like you.

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Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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So this is episode number 39, the first

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year since I started this podcast.

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So before I introduce our guest for

today, I wanted to say thank you

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to everyone who has been following,

rating, and sharing the podcast.

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Because right now, as of this

recording, we are just over

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5, 700 episodes downloaded.

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So far better outcome than we

expected when I took the leap

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into this podcast hosting.

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So I want to say thank you.

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And I'm really grateful

for everybody that listens.

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I hope that it's informative and relevant.

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So let's get started.

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Today's guest is another Dr.

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G.

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So Dr.

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Jonathan

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Gonzalez.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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I'm really, really happy to be the

first guest of the year and another Dr.

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G.

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So it's easy to.

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to say Dr.

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G to each other.

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And even though we met recently,

it's like we, you know, we can,

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uh, make it pretty, pretty easy to,

to have this conversation today.

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And I'm pretty excited.

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And I appreciate the invite.

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No worries.

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DrG: I'm really happy and excited

and proud to have you here because

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you're another Puertorro, right?

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You're from Puerto

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Rico.

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Exactly.

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Yep.

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We're, we're both from the same place

and I know you've done some work there.

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And You know, we always, uh, keep

that in, in, in our hearts, you know,

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DrG: so.

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Yeah, I always tell people that it's

like People from Puerto Rico are,

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are never like strangers, right?

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You meet somebody from Puerto Rico

and it's like, you automatically

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feel that there's, there's a bond.

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So like between the language

and, and everything.

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So, so knowing the

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: places

and knowing what it looks like and

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knowing, you know, and the food, food.

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Yeah.

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I think that's a instant bond, you know?

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DrG: Yeah.

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So let's start first by sharing with

our listeners, kind of what led you to

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become a veterinarian, like the path

that brought you where you are today.

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: So I always

kind of bring up the same story

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ever since I was little, I had,

I always wanted to have animals.

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I think a lot of us started that way.

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And when they got sick, I wondered why

I wondered how to make them better.

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I tried to prevent from them dying,

of course, you know, or being sick and

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how to do my best to get them better.

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And I guess that's where

the curiosity started.

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And I just had really good.

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Coaxing and, um, really good teachers

and my mom was a, a, a biology teacher,

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so she always pushed me to, to that side

of things because she saw I, I liked

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it since, you know, I could remember.

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So, between that and, and good

teachers and, and good education,

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I ended up, um, going to, to

vet school at Ross University.

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Um, so.

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I lived in Puerto Rico that whole time.

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So I went to, school in Miramar.

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It's, uh, Perpetuo Socorro.

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And then I did my undergrad at, uh, the

University of Puerto Rico in Mayagüez,

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where I did, um, like an animal production

undergrad, and then I ended up in St.

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Kitts and, and Ross University.

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So that's kind of how I, I, you know,

ended up in vet school and kind of

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like, it's always been a, what I

wanted to be and what I wanted to do.

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And, you know, I've been a vet now 15

years, so between different experiences,

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a lot of good mentorship and, and.

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Um, you know, hard experiences to

make you grow, I think, out of all of

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that together, I think, um, you know,

that's how I ended up where I'm at

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and, and the things that I believe in

and the things that I talk about and,

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and like share with other vets and

would like everybody to kind of have a

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little, put a little thought into it.

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Um, you know, it, it, it kind of comes

from all of that from when I was little,

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all the way through all what I've

learned in life to where I'm at now.

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So.

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DrG: Cool.

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And we keep learning every day, right?

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Yes.

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Correct.

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Yep.

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DrG: And you're in Texas now.

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Is that right?

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Yeah.

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So I'm in Angleton, Texas.

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I'm practicing in that same town with Dr.

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Raymond Miller, uh, at the veterinary

medical center of the Gulf coast.

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And I've been there only a month.

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Um, but I've known him for a long time.

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I know he would be a good fit

and we're doing pretty good.

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Pretty good medicine together.

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So I'm very happy right now to, you

know, do what I love and have a lot

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of say and kind of, you know, kind of

between me and him kind of dictate the

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medicine and how we do things in the

culture and having a pretty tight ship

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and no outside, you know, influence

is really good for us right now.

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So running a good, good clinic

and helping a lot of people.

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Which is what we like

doing the best, right?

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DrG: Right.

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And because I know that, like, me

personally, I like emergency and

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I like high volume sterilization.

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Like, I, I don't It's not that I don't

like my patients, I don't like spending

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time with patients or, or their owners,

but I'm kind of a, a go go go type person.

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And I know from what I, from what I

have read from your posts, if I feel

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like you are more of a follow somebody

throughout the lifetime of a pet, right,

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would that, would that describe you best?

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Yes.

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Um, absolutely.

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I, I, I think it comes from watching,

you know, veterinarians that are now,

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um, you know, in their seventies,

uh, still practicing medicine, right.

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People that absolutely love, love

their job and, and, you know, that

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was their passion the whole time.

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So, um, I think, I think a lot of that

comes from that mentorship, you know.

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Uh, where I saw them treat dogs

from when they were puppies, like

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their kids dogs or grandchildren's

dogs, you know, through the years.

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So they kind of became part of the family.

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They became the family doctor, um, which

is kind of the vision I had as a kid of

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what veterinarians should be, you know,

kind of like the family doctor kind of

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helping out, you know, with the pets

and, and, uh, somebody they could trust

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and, and kind of guide them through,

through the pet's life, you know.

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DrG: That's really, that's

really cool that you bring that

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up because I interviewed Dr.

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Michael Blackwell a few months ago

about the whole concept of One Health.

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And we were talking about how

veterinarians need to be part

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of the family practice, right?

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So you have the pediatricians and the

general practitioners and everything

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else, but then you have the veterinarians

because animals are part of the family.

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So as veterinarians, we have to

take care of the four legged family

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members while the rest of the medical

team take care of everybody else.

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Right.

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It's just one more specialty.

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Yeah.

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Sometimes that's their only kid,

you know, or that's their only other

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than themselves or their partner or

whatever the, that's the only other

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creature that they need to care for.

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So we become that person that.

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Not only treats the dog and, you know,

we do our job, but we'll calm their

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moments of stress and anxiety over that.

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So I know, especially the last two

years, a lot of first, I saw a lot of

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first time owners, a lot of puppy owners

and first time pet parents, how that,

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you know, we want to call them now too,

I'm trying so that, you know, I just

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noticed that, that we just are a lot

of, of it is calming them down, you

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know, and kind of trying to, to have

that connection and gain that trust.

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Um, you know, and become part of their

circle, you know, they kind of see, they

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were probably become a household name,

you know, if they're, that's their kid or,

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you know, their dog is a big part of their

family, even when they have children,

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, so just another part of the family.

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So, we just become like, you know,

they talk about, we talk about

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our physician sometimes at home.

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Or pediatricians, so

we become part of that.

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And I want, I want to, I want to kind of

keep that in our, in our, um, you know,

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field and, and I don't want to lose that.

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I don't want to, I don't want

veterinarians to become just another

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tool of, getting things done and just

kind of, doing whatever it takes just

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to solve the problem and keep going.

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Right.

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DrG: Yeah, yeah, because I, I like

how you bring it up as far as, you

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know, how people have animals and

some people have them instead of

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children and they're their children.

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It's like being a first time parent,

like when I had my, my son, my sister

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has kids, so I knew about kids and

stuff, but it's a completely different

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experience having your own kid.

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And it's a completely different

experience when I went from

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owning animals growing up.

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To going to college and

having a cat by myself.

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And now this thing I'm responsible for it.

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Right.

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So we have to work with the, as you say,

the pet parents to make sure that, that

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we're helping them help their animals.

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So we can't expect people to just know.

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: And yeah, yeah.

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Or we can't expect to

everybody be the same either.

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Like you're going to have the

people that you kind of feel

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like they should care more.

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Yeah.

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And then the people that.

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Sometimes you feel like you, they're

caring too much, but I think we

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should keep that to ourselves and

kind of have the same reaction,

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the same demeanor and kind of

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bring them to the facts and bring them to

what needs to be done and hear them out

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and just, you know, kind of solve that

problem and it we cannot kind of gauge

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our appointments by how we feel but more

about how the client feels and the medical

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problem they're bringing up, you know, and

then kind of start there and if you find

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other things and go on that route also

but I think making that connection with

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the people is important to get that trust.

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DrG: Yeah, so that's the main reason

I invited you here today is because,

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you know, this is something that I rant

almost every day with my, with my staff.

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And it's because it's unfortunately

so strong in the animal welfare world.

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The common saying that I work with animals

because I hate people, I work with animals

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because people suck or people are stupid.

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And there's just so much judgmental and,

and hatred towards humans in general.

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And, and, and sometimes not,

not really based on anything.

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So what are, what are your, your thoughts

on, on this comment, as far as I work

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with animals because I hate people.

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Yeah.

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So, you know, as leaders, we, we

kind of set the example on that.

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So, you know, we're the first people

that need to kind of show the rest

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of the staff, how, how we have to

manage people's behaviors and clients

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reactions to what we do, and they're

not always going to follow our advice.

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And, you know, they're not always

going to do what we want them to do.

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And as professionals, um, we chose

to feel that, you know, of course,

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we want to help the animals.

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We love a lot of us love the science,

but our patients have a parent that is

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different than a child's parent, right?

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Because they're both human.

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Now we have a creature

that can't talk that it's a

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different kind of relationship.

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Right?

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So, I feel like in that regards,

we, we need to put that in

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perspective and kind of.

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Understand where they're coming from and

understand that we need to communicate

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with that person and include them in

that circle and that team to make that

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pet better and to end up achieving

that common goal of treating pets and

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make them better and the medicine.

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Right?

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So you can still be very, very medicine

oriented, but at the same time, put

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it in perspective from the owner's

point of view and trade that as well.

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Right?

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And I think the medical

success will be better.

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If you establish that trust initially with

the person and kind of, you know, hear

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them out, see what their problems are,

don't think things personal, you know,

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sometimes wait, if they react a certain

way, wait a few seconds, let them vent.

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And then if there's a problem I think

what I've done too and I've learned

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not to, and I try not to is to come out

of rooms and make comments or behave

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a certain way that sets up a cascade

of behavior and the rest of the team.

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Um, sometimes the.

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You know, things are, are heavier

or busy and, and if we start having

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that kind of, um, vibe, then the rest

of the people are going to follow.

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Right.

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And, and if we were the one saying,

oh, so and so, or their pet is like

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this, or their person's like that,

then people can, can feel that.

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Right.

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And, and they can, someone's hear it.

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And then the, the pets react to that too.

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So it's, I've heard a lot of people

come from other clinics and kind

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of tell me they felt a certain

way, the pets felt a certain way,

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and some people disregard that.

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Um, like, almost like, yeah, the dog

didn't know, like, the dog's just

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reacting like that because it's scared.

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But I think there's a little bit of a

connection that we need to have with

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those pets, to avoid that behavior and

that perception from the owner, too.

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Right, so.

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DrG: Yeah, it's like people, if

people feel judged, they may not

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make the right decisions or they

may not be straightforward and tell

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you the right things, like they

may feel that they can't tell you.

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You know, well, I only feed my dog once

a day because you're going to judge

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me and then you don't have the, and

then you don't have the opportunity

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to explain this is why it's best to

feed them twice a day, you know, like

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having a, a judgmental attitude can

put 'em in a defensive in a way that

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then you can't really help the pet.

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And if you lose the trust from that

owner, I mean, it's kind of game over,

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: right?

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Yeah.

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Then you cannot achieve the

magical success that you would

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with the trust from them.

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So I think that's where.

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You know, you have to achieve that initial

relationship, but also you have to kind

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of have the spectrum of care, um, and

kind of go into it, not knowing exactly

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what would you want to do with this case.

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Right off the bat, you have to kind

of go in with an open mind of spectrum

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of care and kind of dictate the

medicine and tailor it to the person.

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Um, because I see a lot of

frustration with the client with that

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treatment plan that wasn't approved

that I wanted to do as a doctor.

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And then that's where

the judgment comes in.

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Right?

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So, I think coming in with the

expectation of, okay, maybe they're not

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going to do everything I want to do.

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But I still want to, I want to help this

pet so within the, within the scope of

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what they can do, then let's do our best

without, making them the, the, the bad

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person or being antagonistic, right?

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Because they, they feel that too.

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I mean, as soon as, as soon as they

feel antagonism, there's a lot of

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that nowadays, there's a lot of

defensive behavior with people.

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So if they feel a little

bit of that, um, you might.

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You might lose them, you

know, pretty quickly.

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So you have to be open to, to kind of

go in by what they want to do a little

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bit and let them kind of hear them out

to what they would do or they would like

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to do and not just say, you know, Oh,

people think they're vets or I don't like

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people to say, don't let me do my job.

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Right.

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Just kind of, kind of let them feel

like they have a little bit of control

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over the situation sometimes, you know.

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So I think a lot of the, I hate

people thing comes from that lack

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of ability to do what, what we want

and kind of them trying to control.

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And then we just become like kind

of antagonistic with each other.

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Yeah.

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DrG: Yeah.

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I think we, we get into that,

into that idea of gold standard of

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care, what we think should be done.

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And then if somebody doesn't agree with

what should be done or doesn't do what

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should be, what we think should be done.

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Then they're automatically a bad

owner or a irresponsible person.

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And we have to, we have to think

about all the different things.

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You know, I try to practice

within what, within the concept

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of cultural competence, right?

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Cause there's a lot of different

things that, that come to play when

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you're trying to do a treatment plan.

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There's the the finances of the owner.

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There's the capabilities of the

owner There's even the the religious

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cultural background everything.

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I mean, there's a lot of stuff that

comes into play So we have to we have

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to understand we have to listen and

then we have to kind of work with Work

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with what we have to be able to do

the best that we can with what we got.

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I did have to see

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: that effort, you

know, they have to see that we're making

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an effort to do the best we can with

what they have and instead of feeling

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like, Oh, no, that's all you can do then.

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No, I cannot see you.

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So I that's a good point.

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DrG: Yeah.

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And it's like, you know, they, they are.

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They're paying for the care of their pet.

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So they're kind of paying us

to to do a job to take care of

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their animal to offer a service.

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So we have to understand that

when the when they come into to

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bring their pet, they're they're

coming in and they're asking.

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And it doesn't mean that we wish.

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Need to allow people to use us and abuse

us and and berate us and everything else.

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That's not what I'm talking about.

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But what I'm talking about is that we

are offering a service of healthcare

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and then we need to try to figure

out what's the best way that we can

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service this person that came in.

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I don't, I don't believe in the, in

the old, the customer's always right

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because the customer's not always right.

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But, but I think that we have

shifted that balance too much

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from the customer's always right

to the customer's always wrong.

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Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM:

Yeah, that's a good point.

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I think it's a natural reaction of

noticing that customers get away with

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things because they're always right.

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And then you put a stop to it.

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Um, and then, yeah, like you said,

it's just become the other extreme too.

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We're, we're the professionals.

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We tell you what to do.

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You don't want to do it my way.

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Then you have to see somebody else.

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And I think that defeats the

purpose of what we want to do.

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And, and, you know, I think going

back to where we're from, I think.

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And seeing it, uh, and kind of growing

up around it, you know, where people try

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to do what they could and, and you kind

of, you know, feel compassion for them.

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You, you feel like they, they love their

animal and, and, and, you know, you,

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you're gonna, you're gonna help them with

what, what the abilities they have, right?

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Like you've done work in Puerto Rico,

you've done, you know, that people

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love their pets and they're gonna,

they're gonna do their best with,

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with spaying, neutering, vaccinations,

you know, some, as much as they can.

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Even through the judgment of,

Oh, you're doing it at a, at a.

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You know, whatever clinic, you're

not doing it with a vet or well,

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you know, that's what they can do.

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And we're there to help

them do that as well.

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We have to be open to, you know,

kind of being helped to them and not

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being strict about this, the, the.

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You know, environment of where

we do those surgeries or where

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we practice that medicine, right?

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So, you know, I, I think that's part of,

of helping the people and, and kind of

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understanding the people and not judging,

you know, sometimes I've seen, oh, they

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get their vaccines at the here or they

get their vaccines here and now the

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dogs sick and now they want to see us.

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So, yeah, okay, that's, that's okay, they

do what they can with their vaccines,

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they get their vaccines done, that's

better than not, not doing anything and

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then you kind of, you know, sometimes

you have to kind of help the staff, the

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younger vets get over that hump of that,

you know, man, like they should be coming

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here, they should be doing this, you

know, textbook care, well, you know, they,

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they did what they could and now they're

here for us to help them and instead of,

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you know, saying, well, you should have

been here, now your dog has heartworms.

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Uh, because you got donated medicine.

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Uh, well, let's go

forward and help you now.

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Right?

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And, and kind of bring that,

that energy to the staff too.

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Like, hey, guys, you know, I know

it's, it sucks that they did this,

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but now we need to help the dog

and, and try and get the owner back.

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Um, and, and make them feel like

they're part of the team and

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they're going to help their dog and

we're going to be back to normal.

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So, yeah,

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DrG: sometimes people are like

staff members and like you

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say, younger vets and stuff.

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They're so intent on punishing the person

for doing something that they don't

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agree with, that they forget that the one

that is suffering is the animal, right?

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It's like, well.

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For example, I work in, in high volume

sterilization and sometimes there'll be

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a cat that licks the incision and it has

a little bit of an infection and then

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the person wants to go to another vet

because we're not available that day

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and the vet is like, well, you didn't

have it done here, so we can't help you.

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Yeah, right.

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Why are, why are we like that?

393

Right?

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Like take care of the cat.

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It's like, you're going to let the

cat have an infection for an extra

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couple of days when all you had to

do was look at it and clean it up and

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give him some antibiotics just because

you're mad at the owner, because.

398

You didn't do the surgery and

they, they couldn't afford it.

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So they went somewhere else.

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Like, we have to be more

open minded than that.

401

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: That's exactly it.

402

And I think then that kind of

sometimes puts a guilt in the

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owner for having done it there.

404

And then you're kind of telling

them they did the wrong thing.

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And then it puts a veterinarian that

did the surgery in a weird spot.

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Because now they, they, they're

in light of, you know, I

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shouldn't have done it with them.

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And then, you know, it's just, I, I

think we should focus on the problem

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and the solution and kinda, kinda,

you know, letting things go and,

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and, and not, not causing more, more

friction than, than there is already.

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Right.

412

You know, you have a right

owner that's upset, you know,

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they have an, an infection and,

and then you're adding to it.

414

You know, I, I've heard things like, uh,

you know, if your vet didn't do this and

415

if you hadn't come here and you hadn't

done this, your dog would have died, you

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know, and comments like that, I think,

you know, just don't help, um, our, our

417

industry as, as, as a team, you know.

418

And I think it creates a lot

of the lack of trust in, in,

419

in clients with, with us too.

420

Think part of the people

things, other vets, right?

421

And other, um, you know, people that

work in the field, I think we need to

422

be compassionate with them as well.

423

Yeah.

424

DrG: Like professional

courtesy and stuff like that.

425

Right.

426

Like, and it doesn't mean like if

somebody does something wrong, I'm not

427

going to be like, Oh no, everything's

okay, but there's a difference

428

between, you know, pointing out

somebody did something maliciously

429

inappropriate to complications happen.

430

You know, it's, it's, it

happens with any surgery.

431

It happens with us when we go to

the, when, with the doctor and,

432

and we're not licking our stitches.

433

Right.

434

We're not, we're not running around.

435

And, and stuff.

436

So animals have a much higher

rate of risk and complications.

437

So yeah, as veterinarians, we need to

work together, not, not work apart.

438

Because what, what I also see happening is

that if, you know, if somebody comes to me

439

because they need help and then something

happens and then they go somewhere else

440

and that person trash, trashes what I

have done, the clients usually actually

441

are mad at that vet because they feel

that then it becomes all about the money.

442

Like that vet is mad because

I didn't give them my money.

443

Uh, they're not gonna, they're

not gonna look bad on me,

444

like I'm trying to help them.

445

So it, you know, you're,

it, it, it comes back at

446

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: you.

447

Yeah.

448

Yeah.

449

No, I've seen that, you know, and,

and, uh, I, I think that the guilt

450

sometimes of telling them that,

well, you're not doing all of this.

451

So your pet is going to, something

bad is going to happen to your pet

452

and putting them in their head.

453

And, you know, we, we have to

be careful with the people's

454

emotions and, and how they feel.

455

And yeah, if.

456

I think we need to put in perspective

that for us, it's a room and it's

457

an appointment and we have a bunch

of them in a day, but for them, it's

458

a vet visit that they'll, they're,

they're never going to forget.

459

You know, they, they

don't go to the vet often.

460

In a year, they're gonna remember

every one of those visits.

461

So I think that all the interactions, all

the body language, I think it's important

462

nowadays to kind of, kind of keep that

relationship as a important, you know,

463

bond and, and, uh, making them want to see

the veterinarian and want to bring their

464

pets in to see you and kind of have that.

465

Family doctor feel, you know, like you

bring your kid to the pediatrician and

466

kind of have the same, the same, uh,

perspective and, and, and trust, you know,

467

and then the same bond with the person.

468

Yeah,

469

DrG: you know, I work, I do forensics,

so I see horrible things that people

470

do to animals intentionally, but,

and, and those people do suck.

471

people that are animal cruelty.

472

They're horrible.

473

Uh, but there's also a difference between

intentional and unintentional neglect.

474

And there are people that commit

unintentional neglect because they

475

can't afford things, because they

don't have access to care, and

476

sometimes because they just don't know.

477

And it is our job to, to help provide

those things, really eliminate barriers

478

to care, um, eliminate, especially the

easiest one is barrier to education.

479

Once that client is in your

room, they're right there.

480

It's your time to, to help them.

481

There's a lot of people that.

482

I mean, best example would be when I

have assistants or technicians, uh,

483

that will say, Oh my God, that person

is using the wrong flea medication.

484

Like that's so stupid.

485

Right.

486

But you didn't know that

five years ago, right?

487

Before you started working here,

you didn't know that, that those

488

over the counter things were

toxic to cats, for instance.

489

So you came in, you learn, and now you're

an advocate for animals because you know,

490

So we can take the time to educate people.

491

So, you know, if we can take.

492

I, I, I believe, I can't remember the

numbers exactly, but it's a huge amount

493

of like a very large percentage of animals

that are neglected that is unintentional.

494

So if we can take care of that, it's a

huge difference in the lives of animals,

495

just the quality of life of the animals

and the quality of life of their owners.

496

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Yeah,

yeah, that's interesting.

497

And, and, you know, that's where I

think we, we have to sometimes not,

498

not be quiet because I think early in

my career, I'd be quiet about those.

499

Those, uh, interactions and

those reactions from our

500

staff, and I would let it go.

501

And I think as leaders, we, we, you

know, we need to find a way to be

502

able to bring those things up and be

able to talk to our staff about that

503

in a moment that without disrupting

the flow of the day and changing

504

the, the energy of the day, right?

505

Where do you have an open relationship

on a daily basis enough to be like, Hey,

506

to be able to say what you just said,

for example, in the moment, like, Hey.

507

You didn't know that and, and, and we

need to be compassionate with them.

508

And, and, you know, we're here to

help them and make that make that

509

the normal interaction with them.

510

And I think that that little

by little, we, we as leaders

511

seem to change that, right?

512

It's not going to come from the staff.

513

Um, because they're, you know, I

think that they feel the stress

514

in a different way than we do.

515

Um, I think it's not that it's more

or less, I think it's just this

516

different, it's a different day.

517

I was a technician before I was a doctor.

518

I, I know how, kind of how it feels.

519

I've never been like a receptionist

type person, but at least I

520

know how the technicians felt

in the day I worked as one.

521

So, you know, I kind of, I kind of.

522

Like to feel like everybody's

kind of not like I'm the doctor.

523

I have more stress than you, you know

And you kind of like put everybody on

524

the same plane to then be able to talk

to each other as human beings that way

525

and kind of you know, have a Leadership

role that it's also more easygoing

526

and less of a you know Punishing type

thing and I think that's a way to

527

get a better reaction from the staff.

528

Yeah, I'm

529

DrG: super lucky with the people

that I have working with me, right?

530

And I don't say working for me, I say

working with me because we're a team

531

and, and it's, it's about empowering.

532

Um, and I'm not, I'm not an easy boss.

533

I'm a very bossy boss, but

I'm a Puerto Rican woman.

534

What can I say?

535

Right.

536

But, uh, but, but we have a

really great relationship.

537

Like we talk and we joke around

and whatever, but when it's time

538

to work, it's time to work, but I

empower them within the capabilities

539

of their license for my technicians.

540

I have four veterinary

technicians, licensed technicians

541

and, and they know enough.

542

And I trust them enough for them

to educate the clients, right?

543

So when an animal has a skin

infection, they can call and

544

they can discuss that with them.

545

And they discuss it in a

really compassionate way.

546

And they explain to them, this is what

we need to do and why we need to do it.

547

And they take their time.

548

And I mean, we're seeing 30 to 50

animals in a day in a high volume

549

clinic, but yet whenever an animal.

550

You know, a pet owner needs the time

to have something explained, they

551

take the time to explain it, just to

develop that, that trust and, and that,

552

so, you know, I think that utilizing,

utilizing Staff appropriately, educating

553

them appropriately, and helping them

be compassionate can even eliminate

554

some of the compassion fatigue that

so many people are feeling, right?

555

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Yeah, that's true.

556

And, and, and not, not use it as

a curtain to hide behind, right?

557

Because, you know, we, we kind of use

the staff to, all right, here, tell them

558

this, and I'm back here, and then kind

of wait and see what happens, right?

559

You have to kind of, uh, set

them up for, for success too.

560

Um, when they have those conversations

with the owners and, you know, uh, build

561

that confidence for them to, to be able

to do that and, and then rely on them.

562

And then it empowers them to

feel good enough at that point.

563

So, you know, I think, I think, I

think having that, that bond with

564

the, with the staff is important

and, and make them feel that.

565

They can educate the clients and, and,

uh, take the, the time and, and the, the,

566

you know, the, the care to, to talk to

them like a friend or a family member.

567

And when you look at the time when

you actually look at most phones

568

have like a little clock on them.

569

It's like three minutes, two minutes,

and you have explained to the owner, how

570

to treat for diabetes in three minutes.

571

And you actually took your time without

rushing, you know, and, and it's not a big

572

deal and then the technicians can maybe

hear you and you can train them to do the

573

same thing and then, you know, dealing

with people becomes a little easier.

574

DrG: Yeah, yeah, I know that actually

With with general practice and like I have

575

worked in general practice and I just I

just personally can't do it because again

576

I'm just like go but we we get clients

that well, actually Perfect example.

577

The other day, we had somebody

that came in with her cats and her

578

cats had ear mites and she had been

given some medication and stuff,

579

but the cats still had ear mites.

580

So she had taken the cats to the vet.

581

She had had an hour appointment

with three of her cats and the

582

cats were still having problems.

583

And my technician just took, you

know, a couple of minutes to say, Hey,

584

we can go ahead and do an ear clean

for, for them while they're sedated.

585

And then we can do this

and we can do that.

586

And the owner was so thankful.

587

about how thorough the

technician was in explaining it.

588

And the fact that they were offering, I

can, I can help you get things started.

589

I can help you with an ear clean.

590

The owner said, nobody ever told

me that they could clean the ears.

591

They just gave me medication for it.

592

So the value of a couple of minutes.

593

Right.

594

Yeah, a couple of minutes of somebody

listening to the concerns of the client

595

and then answering those concerns

because yeah, the cat needs something,

596

but what does the owner also need?

597

What does the owner need

to be able to help the cat?

598

And I'm super thankful and lucky that

my staff, all of my staff members.

599

Take the time to do that to listen to

the question to answer the question

600

to take the time and, you know, and

and follow through, even though we're

601

not a general practice, they're kind

of, you know, giving that that care,

602

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: right?

603

It's like connecting the dots right

from the diagnosis to the plan, but

604

then that line you're throwing, you

have to make sure that lines going

605

to connect those thoughts right and

and that's where the technicians can

606

help bridge that gap of communication

of how to treat that better and.

607

You know, and, and, and again, not, not

use it as a curtain or as a lazy way to

608

be out of the, of the way, but as a way

to be available for the more, um, you

609

know, the more doctor like questions

and the things that we care about more,

610

the things that we, we enjoy better.

611

Uh, in that way, like there's a

612

DrG: difference between

utilization and abuse,

613

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: right?

614

Correct.

615

Correct.

616

And I think part of like, I hate people.

617

I don't like working with people

is because maybe the veterinarians

618

are being put in situations that

they shouldn't be in, you know, like

619

cleaning the cats here, maybe, you

know, empower your technicians to do it.

620

And then maybe you're there to explain

what you found, show them a picture of it

621

and do the things that you enjoy doing.

622

And I think that's up to us

individually to create that environment.

623

Yeah,

624

DrG: I did a I did a poll on social

media just to kind of get an idea of

625

the attitudes of people and I found

out from from the votes and and one

626

of the things though is that this is

a little bit of a biased poll because

627

we can tell who is who is voting.

628

So I think that some people may not be.

629

completely willing to be honest with it.

630

But still about 15 percent of people that

voted say that they hate people period.

631

Right.

632

And then about 47 percent though

said that they love both people and

633

animals, which was, which honestly

was a higher amount that I expected.

634

And it was kind of nice, but yeah,

there's, there's still at least

635

15 percent of people that are

like, You know, screw the people.

636

I just want to, I just want to deal with

the animals and I think that, you know,

637

I think that some of that comes from,

again, like the compassion fatigue that

638

comes from working with animals and stuff.

639

I think that the angry clients,

the, the people that get mad.

640

Are louder, they're really quick to

come and reply, review, you know,

641

if you have, if you're in a room and

you're with somebody that is pissed

642

off about what you did or didn't do,

or they wanted antibiotics and you told

643

them it doesn't need antibiotics and

they get mad as soon as they leave the

644

door, they're going to get on their

phone and they're going to start and

645

go to Google and Yelp and Facebook and

everywhere and leave you a bad review.

646

But when you go into that room and you

have that client that is really thankful

647

and really grateful, that person's going

to go home and they're going to tell

648

their family, they're going to tell

their friends, they're going to tell

649

a bunch of people, but it's not gonna,

you don't necessarily hear that back.

650

So I think that part of our compassion

fatigue and part of it is that we're

651

taking too personally the thoughts

of the, of the few that we can

652

not help or that can't be helped.

653

And we're letting them,

654

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: you know,

I think that, I think it, it needs

655

to be normalized as part of our

field and part of our profession

656

that it's going to happen.

657

And, and make it, we cannot

avoid that from happening.

658

It's just part of the nature of

what we do and people's feelings.

659

And we need to be ready

to understand that.

660

And there's space for that 15%.

661

I think there's space,

there's space for them.

662

Uh, I think, but eventually you're

going to deal with other people, right?

663

If you're a radiologist, you

need to talk to the owner.

664

Sometimes you need to talk to their vets.

665

You know, you can type a report, but

you can get a phone call too, and you

666

need to be able to communicate and so

I think schools are doing better and,

667

you know, enrolling students that are

good at communicating and they are kind

668

of helping them achieve that because I

didn't start out as the best communicator.

669

I had really good mentors that I stole

things from, like little lines they said,

670

little jokes, little things that they did

with the dogs, how little body language

671

things that I, I kind of learned as I

went, you know, and, and I think, I think

672

students need to be aware that when they

graduate, they're going to make mistakes.

673

Things are going to happen, they're

going to be embarrassed, you know,

674

owners are going to be angry.

675

There's, they're going to slam doors

and, you know, it's, it's kind of like

676

expecting that that might happen one

day and, and not blame yourself for it.

677

And, and I was lucky.

678

I had those mentors to bring

up those things with them.

679

I'm just like, yeah,

that's going to happen.

680

It's, you know, you just haven't

been practicing long enough.

681

Right.

682

Stuff like that.

683

Right.

684

So, you know, it, it kinda kind

of prepare the, the students and

685

the new grads to, to have that.

686

And, and I think what's happening, there's

a little bit of, of, um, you know, oh, you

687

have a license here, here's a hospital.

688

And, and you know, there, there's a lot

to it, you know, for, for me to be at

689

the point where I think I could handle

the hospital, it took eight, 10 years.

690

Um, you know, five years to

really handle the medicine.

691

Right?

692

So you can get a new grad and you can.

693

Some of them are very smart.

694

They're really, you know, I've seen

new guys that are very well, um, versed

695

and very mature, um, and, and very

competent, but I see a lot of that.

696

And it's a little pushy to, to give a

clinic to a new grad and, and leave them

697

alone for a day and kind of let them.

698

handle the day, because people, people

notice, people notice that, um, you

699

know, they don't have the experience.

700

They're a little anxious,

nervous about things.

701

They, they might be sometimes saying too

much to clients and, and it looks funny.

702

Uh, I, I think as we have a little more

experience, we kind of like, kind of trim

703

down the, the wording and trim down the,

our thoughts, our, our, our diagnoses

704

and our thoughts and their expectations.

705

And, and, you know, it just

goes, it goes different.

706

So.

707

Uh, I think it's good for new grads to be

around vets that have been around a little

708

longer before having that like first

time clinic because I think that says

709

them to not like people either, right?

710

Right.

711

DrG: And, and yeah, and having the

confidence, like having the confidence,

712

because if you go into a room and, and

you sound like you're asking and not

713

telling, then that also also creates

an issue with the, with the pet owner.

714

If they come in and they're asking you

questions and you're kind of like looking

715

around and you're like, oh, well, uh,

I think then they're not going to trust

716

what, what you're going to say or what

you're going to recommend as much as

717

if you come in and you're confident

and you, and you know, and even if you

718

don't know multiple times, I mean, I've

been in practice for a long time and.

719

And I will say to somebody, you know what?

720

I'm not sure about that.

721

Let me do some research

and I'll get back to you.

722

And it's that honesty of, no,

I don't know everything, but

723

I know where to look it up.

724

And I will find out and

I will get back to you.

725

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Yeah.

726

And, and having that ability of

saying, well, I've seen this before,

727

or I've done this, you know, and, and

as a new grad, you don't have that.

728

And I think that creates

a little bit of anxiety.

729

And, you know, I think the, the

environment in school is very protected

730

in terms of the client and the students.

731

So that barrier is taken

away very abruptly.

732

You know, when they start in real

life and, and I didn't have that in

733

my case, I had real good mentors and

a real good environment of learning.

734

And, and, you know, so I, I think from

my experience, I think that's really key

735

to create confident veterinarians that

end up liking people, uh, and maybe from,

736

you know, those 15%, maybe some of them.

737

will end up liking people if they have

the right mentorship and the right

738

tools to learn how to deal with the

awkward, weird situations that you

739

don't, nobody wants to deal with.

740

Yeah.

741

DrG: I used to have, uh, I have

a lot of like social anxiety.

742

So I would be concerned about if I

go into a room and that person gets

743

mad or, you know, can I defuse a

situation or what's going to happen?

744

And then I realized that that

person is just as scared as I am.

745

And that empowered me.

746

Right.

747

As soon as I realized that the

person that I'm talking to.

748

It's not necessarily, they

don't necessarily feel that

749

they're above me, stronger than

me, or more powerful than me.

750

So why should I just shrink myself

before getting into that situation?

751

And that helped me a lot.

752

And even though I still have some social

anxiety, I can go into a room and I can

753

say what I need to say because I feel

very confident about what I'm doing.

754

Right.

755

So how would you say like if you have

a if you have a pet owner, because one

756

of the things that that some people

in animal welfare don't don't seem

757

to comprehend is that when people are

stressed, you get fight or flight.

758

So their animal is injured, their

animal is sick, something happened, you

759

know, so especially in emergency urgent

care type situations, they come in and

760

they're, they're frustrated, and they're

scared, and they may be belligerent,

761

but they're not Taking it out on you.

762

They're taking it out on just

the world, like everything.

763

So, what would you say to people

as far as dealing with somebody

764

that, that comes in that is just

angry because their pet is sick or,

765

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: or injured?

766

I think, you know, a lot, a

lot comes from human medicine.

767

You know, I think a lot of the,

first of all, separating that

768

injured pet from the owner.

769

I think that, that, and before

you do that, I think it depends

770

on the person you have to create.

771

Trust and confidence.

772

You can't just like grab

the dog and take it away.

773

Sometimes you have to see some

people will give you the dog and

774

then you, you know, you can run.

775

Some people hold, hold their

dogs and don't let you hold it.

776

And you can like pry,

like pry it from them.

777

So, you know, that initial interaction

of separating the dog from the person has

778

to be very, very careful, carefully done.

779

But I think it's important to separate

that, that dog or that patient

780

or cat or patient from the owner.

781

Um, and then having a person that

is very compassionate, experienced,

782

and, you know, dealing with that

kind of situation, have that person

783

maybe be the one talking to them.

784

Um, sometimes they need the

veterinarian to be there as the

785

staff works on the dog initially.

786

Um, sometimes I've seen people

that kind of stand there kind of

787

like, what are you doing here?

788

Go treat my dog, right?

789

So, I think in a big scheme of things.

790

It's to treat each situation

individually as a different thing

791

and rather than have a plan, observe

and look what's happening, kind of

792

like read the room, read the patient,

see how much of an emergency it is.

793

Sometimes the person is acting like

it's, you know, and you, there's

794

certain things we can look at, you

know, the BAR part of our exam.

795

Right.

796

If you see a dog in a mentally depressed

state, you know, you know, you know,

797

right away, you need to do more.

798

If you see the mental

state, it's not as bad.

799

You have time to talk to

your owner a little bit more.

800

And so I think you have to read

each situation individually.

801

I think if you're not feeling confident

enough, you have to also as a professional

802

separate yourself from that client.

803

And go to your job and

kind of focus on the pet.

804

If you're, if you're standing

there thinking about the pet and

805

you're talking to the person,

people notice that, I think, too.

806

You have to, you know, kind of

let them know like, hey, Mrs.

807

So and so, I know you need to talk

to me about what happened, but I

808

need to go see your pet real quick.

809

So kind of like be, be in control,

you know, observe, read the room, be

810

in control, and then, you know, keep

calm, try, you know, keep, remember

811

that you're the leader in that room

and you have to set the example of how

812

to, you're going to act in that moment.

813

So, I think that initial

interaction is really important.

814

And, and also if it depends on the

client, if you have established trust

815

before, if they know who you are, if

you know, you've seen them forever, you

816

know what to do, you know, and then the

whole treatment plan becomes easier and

817

you have to kind of tailor the situation

to each specific patient and client.

818

Yeah, I think

819

DrG: that, uh, you know, one of the, one

of the biggest errors that I see people

820

make is that a client comes in and the

client is upset and the client comes

821

in and it's like, you know, like, you

gotta take care of my animal right now.

822

And the person behind the desk, instead

of saying, Hey, tell me what's happening.

823

They go, okay, no, stop.

824

I need you to calm down.

825

Right?

826

And it's like, okay, no, now,

now we have two people just

827

escalating and escalating and

828

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: escalating.

829

I don't know that there's

that's I've ever seen that work.

830

When you tell a human

being to calm down to stop.

831

I don't think that's ever worked ever.

832

DrG: Right.

833

It's like completely opposite.

834

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Yeah.

835

Yeah.

836

So I agree.

837

Yeah.

838

DrG: No, exactly.

839

So it's, but, but it's a reaction, right?

840

Somebody comes at you aggressively and

then our reaction is to take defense.

841

And it's like, if, if

we take the time to say.

842

Okay, tell me what's happening

and they're and they're still up

843

here know that this happened and

it just needs to be taken care of.

844

Hey, I'm going to work to get you

taken care of as soon as possible.

845

I just need to get things, you

know, so that I can, I can move you

846

the way that it needs to be moved.

847

And you notice that that person just

deescalates little by little just comes

848

down like you need to let them vent.

849

And again, it's not allowing people to

abuse you, like if that person comes

850

in and starts calling you name and

insulting you and threatening you, then

851

no, that's not what I'm talking about.

852

But that's probably the 1%.

853

It's like the majority of people are

just, are just upset, but not really

854

like they don't want to fight you.

855

They just want their pet taken

856

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: care of.

857

And I think as time goes by, you learn to

be like, Hey, listen, I'm here to help and

858

you keep mentioning the word help, right?

859

It's one thing that I like I've learned

with time to tell them I want to help you.

860

I want to help your pet I think that

somebody that's offering help, it's

861

hard to be angry at that person, right?

862

So you kind of need to bring them down

from that anger and bring them back to

863

reality by saying, Hey, I'm here to help.

864

I want to help.

865

And if, if, if, if you get angered

to that, then something's not right.

866

And I think you should separate yourself

from that situation at that point and

867

have a plan for when that happens.

868

Um, because it gets to a point where,

you know, you're saying everything,

869

you know, to say you're explaining

everything you're trying to explain.

870

Sometimes there's a barrier that cannot

be crossed and a different staff member

871

comes in and it's a different scenario,

different interaction, different.

872

You know, and who knows why it's just

a different person coming in, right?

873

And there might be a different

connection, different vibe, different

874

energy, and then things change.

875

So, you know, and, and having a

plan ready for those situations,

876

I think it's important.

877

Yeah.

878

I

879

DrG: actually, it's funny that you

said, cause I was watching one of

880

those border patrol shows, right?

881

And there was this, and there was

this girl that is talking to somebody

882

and this person, this guy is just.

883

angry at her and just yelling at her

and she's trying to explain everything.

884

So then she leaves and one of her

co workers comes over to talk and

885

he's saying exactly the same thing.

886

But at that point, the

person feels heard, right?

887

And it's just because

it's a second person.

888

So when they're talking, the

second person knows what to expect.

889

Right?

890

Like she went to the back and she

said, this guy is pissed because

891

we took this away from him and

we told him that he can't keep it

892

and now he's going to have a fine.

893

So this guy comes over and it's

explained like, listen, man, this is

894

why we do our job and this is whatever.

895

And the, and the guy was like,

okay, well, you know, you're, you're

896

really kind, you're really nice.

897

You're explaining everything to me.

898

She was just horrible to me or not.

899

And it's exactly the same conversation.

900

It's exactly the same thing.

901

It's just two different people.

902

You just gave them time to deescalate.

903

You, you cannot make somebody

come down and that's okay.

904

Like we, we got to understand

that sometimes we're not it

905

and we got to get somebody else

and have somebody else be it.

906

Yeah,

907

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: and I don't,

not only our staff, but a family

908

member, a person that's with them,

you know, I'm sure, you know, I'll be

909

careful with saying it, but there's

two people in the room and there's

910

one that you connect with better.

911

And maybe you can have that, that

connection and drive that person to

912

have the other person feel better.

913

Right.

914

And, and there's like, like body

language and eye contact that can help

915

you kind of get that other person.

916

To help you with their spouse

or whatever their partner.

917

Right.

918

Right.

919

So, uh, that, that, that's

another ally in that room to help

920

you deescalate the situation.

921

Um, you know, and sometimes they

offer that, say, Hey dog, I think she

922

should go to, or he should go, right.

923

Or whatever.

924

Um, and, and then we can talk or whatever.

925

So, right.

926

And, and also I, I, one more

thing, sorry, that I just remember

927

that I think it's important.

928

So much.

929

You're not going to solve

that conflict that day.

930

Okay.

931

Uh, sometimes you have a conflict, you

have a situation, sometimes you have

932

to give it a few days, you know, give

it a week, and that person that maybe

933

acted a certain way, a week later, a

month later, is going to be a completely

934

different person, and it's going to do

everything you want to do, and whatever.

935

So, you know, we have

to be patient as well.

936

Yeah, I think that when

937

DrG: we're too pushy, people

don't see it as Don't see it

938

necessarily as we're trying to do

the best for that pet at this time.

939

They see it as you're trying to sell

me something because unfortunately,

940

I mean, we are, we are there to

help the animals and we're there

941

to provide health, but there is a,

there's a price tag attached to it.

942

And we have to be really careful with

how we are presenting ourselves and

943

how we are offering things because

we don't want to be selling things.

944

We want to be You know, giving good

care to, to that patient to develop that

945

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM:

trust, correct, correct.

946

And, and, you know, when, when we

establish that trust and we can give

947

that care and that's not just up to us.

948

And I think the anxiety goes away

when we know the world is not, it's

949

not up to us to fix the world and

fix everything that happens every

950

day and every single case, you know,

and I think that's part of it too.

951

So I think we need to rely on people.

952

DrG: Yeah, and you know, with what I

do, because it's high volume and stuff,

953

like even when we do wellness clinics,

they're not the same as if somebody brings

954

you a dog versus they bring me a dog.

955

When they bring me a dog, it's like

a quick, quick exam, vaccines, next.

956

Whereas with you, they

have the time or whatever.

957

So every now and then somebody

will come to me and say that

958

they're unhappy with my service.

959

Because they want somebody to come

and talk to them and sit with them

960

in a room and everything else.

961

And I'm not offended by it.

962

It's like, I understand, I

understand what you need.

963

We are not what you need, right?

964

So, you know, these are other

places that can give you what you

965

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: need.

966

They, they see that you're a

veterinarian, so they maybe expect, and

967

that expectation, you know, needs to

maybe establish after the first time.

968

You know, and, and same with us, you know,

in general practice, sometimes they come

969

with the expectation of you coming in,

giving the dog a shot and leaving, right.

970

And because they haven't been to a vet in

20 years and that's what they saw before.

971

And now you have this like person coming

in to weigh the dog, take vitals and

972

get a history and then they kind of

like, so you, you, I think we sometimes

973

need to create expectations of how the

visit is going to go from the beginning.

974

You know, and kind of maybe at

the high volume clinics, we like,

975

Hey, this is just a quick exam.

976

If you have concerns, you

probably should see your vet.

977

And even, even you can, we can

try and do everything we can and

978

things are still going to happen.

979

So I think the, the umbrella

expectation is that things are

980

going to happen once in a while.

981

And when they happen, it's how we react

to how they, to what happens, not,

982

not, you know, what happens or the

situation we're in, but how we're going

983

to fix it and not, not blaming anybody

or blaming what, but how we're going

984

to fix it as a team, like you said.

985

DrG: Yeah, we gotta, yeah, we gotta focus

forward, right, because we just, it's part

986

of that whole compassion fatigue is that

we just focus too much on the negative.

987

So we see 10 patients, 10

clients that are great.

988

And then we see one

person that is horrible.

989

And then for the rest of the

day, we're dwelling on the

990

one person that was horrible.

991

So the next 20 appointments

may be fantastic, but that

992

one person just ruins our day.

993

I try to think of it as I play

ice hockey, so, and I'm a goalie.

994

So if I get scored on,

okay, I got scored on.

995

Forget it.

996

Okay, let's keep playing.

997

Let's, you know, forget

that you got scored on.

998

Let's let's keep moving.

999

It's kind of, it's kind of that

like you had that bad client.

00:54:00,291 --> 00:54:02,281

Yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna make you mad.

00:54:02,281 --> 00:54:03,421

It's gonna piss you off or whatever.

00:54:03,421 --> 00:54:03,841

Forget it.

00:54:03,841 --> 00:54:04,401

They're gone.

00:54:04,431 --> 00:54:05,251

Get them out of your mind.

00:54:05,621 --> 00:54:07,791

Focus on on the good that you're doing.

00:54:07,791 --> 00:54:13,291

And then maybe we can psych ourselves

into into being positive and having a

00:54:13,291 --> 00:54:13,791

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: better day.

00:54:14,311 --> 00:54:17,231

I joked around with the newer vets,

like, hey, you know, you're going to

00:54:17,291 --> 00:54:21,351

forget this case when the next bad

thing happens, you know, the next

00:54:21,351 --> 00:54:25,001

bad case, the next angry client is

going to make you forget the last one.

00:54:25,121 --> 00:54:29,881

And not in a negative way, like,

like wait for the next bad thing

00:54:29,891 --> 00:54:30,971

because there's going to be one.

00:54:31,811 --> 00:54:33,211

It's more of a realistic thing.

00:54:33,211 --> 00:54:36,621

There's going to be more problems

and you might be upset about this

00:54:36,621 --> 00:54:39,701

problem, but there's going to be

others and you need to bounce back.

00:54:40,626 --> 00:54:42,736

And you need to be ready for

the next thing to happen.

00:54:42,736 --> 00:54:46,996

So, you know, we cannot dwell on

things and, and we cannot do that

00:54:46,996 --> 00:54:48,576

until the next bad thing happened.

00:54:48,586 --> 00:54:51,496

But we need to learn to do,

to bounce back before that.

00:54:51,496 --> 00:54:51,806

Right.

00:54:51,926 --> 00:54:56,896

And, and the quicker, the better

because there's no point in, in

00:54:57,806 --> 00:54:59,266

thinking about things too much.

00:54:59,266 --> 00:55:03,126

And, and, you know, there's, that's

a whole different world, but, uh,

00:55:03,126 --> 00:55:06,956

I think that's a big part of our

fatigue to kind of let it go and

00:55:07,096 --> 00:55:10,636

be able to bounce back and kind

of have somebody to talk about it.

00:55:11,776 --> 00:55:17,636

With and, and, you know, and, and, and

mentorship is a really big factor in that.

00:55:19,616 --> 00:55:19,906

Yeah,

00:55:19,916 --> 00:55:22,706

DrG: venting and having somebody that

you trust that you can, that you can

00:55:22,706 --> 00:55:26,826

discuss stuff and, and just get it out

of your chest and get over, you know,

00:55:26,826 --> 00:55:29,686

be able to talk about that experience,

but again, not dwelling on it.

00:55:29,686 --> 00:55:32,027

Just talk about it, get over

it, and then let's, let's

00:55:32,027 --> 00:55:32,547

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: move on.

00:55:32,547 --> 00:55:35,669

Or being negative about the people,

or being negative about the client

00:55:35,669 --> 00:55:37,490

or the person or the pet, right?

00:55:37,490 --> 00:55:40,091

So, kind of like from the,

from the leadership end.

00:55:41,331 --> 00:55:44,851

When I, when I vet another vet comes

in and say, Hey, this person was this

00:55:44,871 --> 00:55:48,641

and this is like, instead of like

jumping in the bandwagon with them,

00:55:48,641 --> 00:55:51,471

it's good to be like, Hey, well, you

know, they're, they're acting this

00:55:51,471 --> 00:55:56,151

way because of this and that, and, you

know, you, you kind of, you know, from

00:55:56,151 --> 00:56:00,671

a leadership standpoint, we're also

in charge of creating that culture.

00:56:01,913 --> 00:56:07,863

DrG: So before we, we close up, I did

want to talk a little bit about, uh,

00:56:07,883 --> 00:56:11,373

something that I know I've seen you

discuss and I've discussed also on

00:56:11,373 --> 00:56:14,603

social media and it's the whole concept

of telemedicine and telehealth because

00:56:14,963 --> 00:56:16,803

it involves the human animal bond.

00:56:16,803 --> 00:56:20,013

And I don't think that a lot

of people understand how.

00:56:20,343 --> 00:56:21,233

How that works.

00:56:21,483 --> 00:56:24,973

So do you want to explain to our

listeners, what's the difference between

00:56:24,973 --> 00:56:28,833

telemedicine and telehealth and why

one is okay and the other one isn't?

00:56:28,883 --> 00:56:29,203

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Yeah.

00:56:29,483 --> 00:56:31,963

Well, I'd be happy to do

like a whole episode of that.

00:56:32,283 --> 00:56:36,203

Cause I, you know, if that's okay

with you, cause that it's so much

00:56:36,203 --> 00:56:37,883

time that we can talk about that.

00:56:38,463 --> 00:56:46,213

Um, but I think when, when, you know,

COVID happens, um, or the whole pandemic

00:56:46,213 --> 00:56:51,823

happens, I think we got used to doing

a lot of things from home and we got

00:56:51,823 --> 00:56:58,568

used to, Having a lot of convenience

with everything in life, but, you know,

00:56:58,568 --> 00:57:02,928

there, there's certain things and for

example, where I'm, when I, where I

00:57:02,928 --> 00:57:06,208

live in Texas, there were some things

that were essential workers, right?

00:57:07,298 --> 00:57:13,078

And there's, there's a point behind that

being made an essential worker, right?

00:57:13,078 --> 00:57:14,348

We're essential for a reason.

00:57:15,838 --> 00:57:19,948

Um, and I think part of that becomes

the fact that we have to physically

00:57:19,948 --> 00:57:23,048

be, be there to provide a service.

00:57:23,938 --> 00:57:26,538

So as veterinarians,

our physical presence.

00:57:27,023 --> 00:57:30,613

Is essential and it was

proven through a pandemic.

00:57:31,393 --> 00:57:37,643

So, I think, I think stemming from that,

um, you know, the, the way we practice

00:57:37,643 --> 00:57:43,713

our, our, our, our medicine is not a,

not a, there's a history taken from the

00:57:43,713 --> 00:57:46,053

owner and we take that into account.

00:57:46,073 --> 00:57:50,813

That's a big part of what we do, but

then the physical examination is a, it's

00:57:50,813 --> 00:57:52,363

a very important part of what we do.

00:57:53,533 --> 00:57:58,140

Uh, I think that, you know, we find out a

lot of things by doing that once a year.

00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:04,790

Um, but we also are more accurate

by having that physical examination.

00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:13,140

So, in human medicine, and, and to explain

the difference between telemedicine

00:58:13,140 --> 00:58:17,680

and telehealth, in human medicine,

um, a lot of telemedicine happens, you

00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:22,470

know, in, in terms of mental health,

uh, in terms of things that patients

00:58:22,470 --> 00:58:24,090

can talk to their physician about.

00:58:25,290 --> 00:58:31,150

And, and, and be very specific in

words, um, and, and be very accurate

00:58:31,190 --> 00:58:33,930

in diagnosing a problem through.

00:58:34,188 --> 00:58:39,855

A conversation and having the, the,

the screen now and the video calls

00:58:39,855 --> 00:58:45,025

have made it, you know, a little,

a little more accurate in terms of

00:58:45,095 --> 00:58:47,485

seeing things right in, in real time.

00:58:48,535 --> 00:58:56,325

Um, but in, in, in telemedicine,

you're diagnosing health problems

00:58:56,475 --> 00:58:59,035

and then you're treating and

you're prescribing medication.

00:59:00,275 --> 00:59:08,955

Um, telehealth is where you do all the

different, you know, emails, phone calls.

00:59:09,675 --> 00:59:12,295

Anything, any, any technology to.

00:59:13,045 --> 00:59:18,445

Have a conversation or to achieve, you

know, a goal with a patient, right?

00:59:18,495 --> 00:59:22,555

So the telemedicine part is when

you're diagnosing and treating.

00:59:22,585 --> 00:59:25,075

Telehealth is everything

else that we've done forever.

00:59:26,105 --> 00:59:29,885

So in general, telehealth,

it's very normal.

00:59:29,885 --> 00:59:30,895

We've done it forever.

00:59:30,895 --> 00:59:32,485

We do, we do it all the time.

00:59:33,305 --> 00:59:35,535

Now we've added video calls to that.

00:59:36,815 --> 00:59:37,995

And it's very convenient.

00:59:37,995 --> 00:59:39,335

It's great for clients.

00:59:39,455 --> 00:59:43,115

You know, there's, there's, and that's why

we can talk probably a full hour on this,

00:59:43,135 --> 00:59:50,195

but I think it's important for us to have

that initial contact with the pet and the

00:59:50,195 --> 00:59:56,595

people to then be able to provide advice

and, and triage and, and, and give them

00:59:56,595 --> 00:59:58,645

the right advice later on using tools.

00:59:59,460 --> 01:00:02,830

Like technology and, and,

you know, uh, telehealth.

01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:05,750

So telehealth and

veterinary medicine, great.

01:00:06,490 --> 01:00:12,030

Uh, telemedicine, I, I think it

just sets us up to not be accurate

01:00:12,050 --> 01:00:16,580

in our diagnoses and in creating

that initial bond with the people.

01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:23,180

Uh, because I, I, I, I think

that we've starting to lose a

01:00:23,180 --> 01:00:27,600

little bit of that personal bond

of being there with the person.

01:00:28,065 --> 01:00:33,395

You know, and having a communication and

being in presence in the same room and

01:00:33,395 --> 01:00:35,185

seeing how the pet interacts with you.

01:00:35,185 --> 01:00:38,985

And I don't know, for me, so important

to have the pet there with me.

01:00:39,385 --> 01:00:43,195

As a veterinarian, and I think

everybody can practice the way they

01:00:43,195 --> 01:00:46,955

want with their license and, and

ultimately, I think it's just going

01:00:46,955 --> 01:00:49,845

to be very common to have this happen.

01:00:50,685 --> 01:00:53,765

Just because the world is kind

of being directed that way.

01:00:54,425 --> 01:00:57,805

But then as veterinarians, we can

control how much of that is done with

01:00:57,805 --> 01:01:01,485

our license and how much we're going

to do with that right and we're gonna,

01:01:01,515 --> 01:01:05,455

we're gonna put it in practice like

you can write a law, you can write.

01:01:05,910 --> 01:01:10,360

You know, a paragraph of how things

are going to happen, but ultimately,

01:01:10,890 --> 01:01:15,360

we're the ones in control of how that

case is going to go, um, and we're

01:01:15,380 --> 01:01:18,660

the ones that are going to decide how

comfortable we are with what we do.

01:01:19,510 --> 01:01:28,270

And I really think that most of us are

would not be comfortable prescribing

01:01:28,310 --> 01:01:33,900

medication and having a diagnosis without

having that patient in front of us.

01:01:34,575 --> 01:01:39,455

And I think that's a very deep general

thought in most veterinarians, and I just

01:01:39,455 --> 01:01:45,135

see a big disconnect in what's being put

out there, what clients want, because it's

01:01:45,145 --> 01:01:51,705

convenient, but they don't understand that

a Zoom call is not the best treatment for

01:01:51,705 --> 01:01:54,065

their dog, especially as an initial exam.

01:01:55,030 --> 01:01:59,520

Uh, versus, you know, a human

being having an initial call with

01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:03,870

a physician about a problem because

then they can direct them to testing

01:02:03,870 --> 01:02:07,940

and all that, but as veterinarians,

we're there to test as well, right?

01:02:07,940 --> 01:02:13,280

So, having the pet there ends up

being more convenient for things and

01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:17,320

issues that need more care, rather

than a phone call that then you have

01:02:17,330 --> 01:02:18,720

to go and bring your dog anyway.

01:02:18,740 --> 01:02:23,530

So, I want to be specific about

the wording, telemedicine.

01:02:24,275 --> 01:02:28,835

implies a lot more care, uh,

that it's really hard for us as

01:02:28,845 --> 01:02:31,815

veterinarians to be accurate remotely.

01:02:32,565 --> 01:02:38,565

Telehealth is a great tool to provide

advice and triage and tell them, you know,

01:02:38,565 --> 01:02:40,285

what they should do next with their pet.

01:02:41,235 --> 01:02:45,195

Uh, but I think veterinarians are

going to start being careful with

01:02:46,485 --> 01:02:50,975

what they diagnose and what they

prescribe over those interactions

01:02:50,975 --> 01:02:55,355

without knowing those people and

having that pet in front of them.

01:02:55,355 --> 01:03:00,865

And I hope that we as leaders that we

have been in the industry longer can

01:03:00,865 --> 01:03:05,985

steer it into that direction rather

than steer it to making it normal.

01:03:06,525 --> 01:03:11,885

For you to jump on a zoom call and

prescribe medication, and I think

01:03:11,885 --> 01:03:15,005

that the newer generation of vets

need to see us kind of putting

01:03:15,005 --> 01:03:16,205

a little bit of a break to it.

01:03:17,131 --> 01:03:17,931

DrG: Yeah, I.

01:03:18,591 --> 01:03:19,321

I, I couldn't agree more.

01:03:19,321 --> 01:03:25,321

I mean, I think of it as, uh, again, like

in, in how I practice if I do a surgery

01:03:25,601 --> 01:03:28,801

and I have a client that calls and says,

Hey, I'm a little bit concerned about my

01:03:28,851 --> 01:03:31,211

cat's incision and I can say, Oh, okay.

01:03:31,211 --> 01:03:32,131

Send me a picture.

01:03:32,271 --> 01:03:33,511

Let's, let's get on the phone.

01:03:33,521 --> 01:03:35,271

Let's see what, explain

to me what's happening.

01:03:35,271 --> 01:03:36,231

And I can see a picture.

01:03:36,511 --> 01:03:39,791

And based on that picture, I can

see, say, okay, is, is she eating,

01:03:39,801 --> 01:03:41,461

drinking, everything else is okay.

01:03:41,671 --> 01:03:42,021

Okay.

01:03:42,021 --> 01:03:43,221

You know, everything looks okay.

01:03:43,221 --> 01:03:46,321

We just need to do some compresses or

we don't just need to put an e-collar.

01:03:46,341 --> 01:03:46,571

Okay.

01:03:46,686 --> 01:03:50,076

So, because I, I know that patient, I

have a relationship with that patient.

01:03:50,076 --> 01:03:53,746

I have a relationship with that

owner, but it's different to just

01:03:54,106 --> 01:03:57,396

somebody calling me up and saying,

Hey, my dog has vomiting and diarrhea.

01:03:57,436 --> 01:03:58,816

And what am I going to do with that?

01:03:59,116 --> 01:04:03,076

Like, there are so many different

things that can be, and you know,

01:04:03,096 --> 01:04:06,336

it's like, uh, and, and me saying.

01:04:06,436 --> 01:04:06,746

Okay.

01:04:06,746 --> 01:04:09,686

Well, I'm going to call you in a

prescription and hopefully this is okay.

01:04:09,686 --> 01:04:12,936

And if I'm wrong, something can

go really, really, really wrong.

01:04:13,376 --> 01:04:17,266

Then, you know, it's the harm to

the patient and then the harm to

01:04:17,266 --> 01:04:20,326

ourselves as veterinarians and

the potential harm to our license.

01:04:20,866 --> 01:04:21,176

Jonathan Gonzalez, DVM: Yeah.

01:04:21,176 --> 01:04:25,166

And, and I think the law is opening

a gate that then sets up the

01:04:25,166 --> 01:04:29,786

veterinarian for more liability

under the board of, of, of, you know,

01:04:29,796 --> 01:04:31,426

veterinary medicine in their States.

01:04:31,436 --> 01:04:31,736

Right.

01:04:31,736 --> 01:04:36,626

So they're, they're, they're

being more open to you diagnosing

01:04:36,626 --> 01:04:38,006

and practicing the way you want.

01:04:39,176 --> 01:04:44,906

And that's also opening you up to

more, you know, strict, um, um,

01:04:44,996 --> 01:04:46,656

judgment of your medicine, right?

01:04:46,656 --> 01:04:52,456

Because the standard of care really is up

to the veterinarians that are analyzing

01:04:52,456 --> 01:04:54,576

that case and how it went along, right?

01:04:54,576 --> 01:04:58,936

And what happened, you know, when

you're analyzing a mistake and the

01:04:58,936 --> 01:05:03,246

standard of care and how it went along

and, you know, you had this, you know,

01:05:03,246 --> 01:05:08,056

interaction on a Zoom call and you

had advice, you diagnosed the patient.

01:05:08,786 --> 01:05:14,236

So then you're liable for that result and,

and what you said and, uh, went along.

01:05:14,236 --> 01:05:18,686

So I, I, I think there's going to

be a lot of veterinarians nervous