In this follow-up episode, we continue our conversation with Chris Hatfield, founder of Sales Psyche. Chris breaks down common myths about motivation, explaining why leaders should focus less on motivating their teams and more on inspiring them. He explores how habits and action can drive motivation, the importance of understanding individual aspirations, and how vulnerability can build trust in leadership. With a mix of practical tools and deep insights, Chris highlights ways to create a productive, growth-oriented environment for both leaders and sales teams.

Welcome back. We're here to continue our

conversation with Chris Hatfield from Sales Psyche.

There's been a great conversation with as we've

explored sort of growth and leadership, how important that

is to businesses, right? We we speak to a lot of our guests

about, you know, leadership and the importance and actually, how

if leadership isn't thriving or optimized, it can actually be

the demise of an organization. But in talking about growth, we

sort of see leaders often focus on motivation. Yeah, really, as

you sort of say, right, come on, guys, let's get going. But

you've got a different slant on that. You've got a different

view about leaders and motivation. Is that correct?

Yeah, yeah.

I'd love you to share that to the guests.

Yeah, I think there's, there's two or three

things. I think, first of all, it's addressing this, those kind

of three big myths I see around motivation. The first is that

you should be able to get to this place where you're

constantly motivated, which I don't think is is healthy or

actually possible, because this idea that you and people this is

often driven by your perception of other people online or

offline, or seeing people around you being successful, and

thinking, God, they're so constantly motivated. And even

you'll hear people who you might perceive like this saying

they're not. Is that is these people don't rely on motivation.

They rely on often, habits, but they rely on creating motivation

through action. And this perception of thinking I should

always be motivated, is a downfall for people, because

when you're not, you judge yourself. When you are you then

you then wonder where it's gone. You're like, hang on, I was

super motivated last week. Super motivated before I went to bed

last night. Why have I woken up and felt like this, which often

ironically takes you more away from motivation, because you

feel demotivated as a result of it. So the perception in itself,

it's the same with happiness, I think, is people see it as a

destination, whereas actually it can come in waves. And Simon

Sinek talks about this surfer mentality in a different

context, and I kind of use it in a different way, in that, you

know, some days you're riding a wave, some days you're under

one, but wherever you are, you're not stuck there. And like

every good surfer knows, no matter how good the wave is,

it's coming down at some point, not in a negative way. But I

need, I want to prepare myself for this so I can catch the next

wave. And that's the thing as well. With motivation, you're

going to have those waves so interesting when you come down

from it, don't judge yourself, because the more you do that,

the longer you stay on the water. Focus on, what did I do

to get there in the first place? What was I thinking, feeling and

doing? What's in my control right now to catch the next one?

But don't then think, Oh, I just need to wait for motivation.

And I like this because it's important to be

quite human, is that when growing up, when I was in my

teenage years, like, I think as all if I may say that we did

things that weren't particularly that good, right, embarrassing,

or we shouldn't have done that, and we got told off, and I

remember, I can't name the exact situation, but to that point

about the surfing analogy, I used to see it as a newspaper,

and I think because of my expressive nature, I'd always

want to be at the front of the newspaper. Hey, look at me. Hey,

look at us while we're doing a podcast. But, but that that

definitely was the way I used to look at things in my head, maybe

not aligned to motivation, but the way I used to see it was

that always want to get to the front, but actually I'd probably

sit in the middle most of the time. That's fine. I'm not not

seen. I'm not not seen, but when things are getting really I'm at

the back. That's fine, because I know where I am. I've just then

got to put my self with some actions to go forward and learn

how to get back forward. It just resonates with me when you're

describing that.

Yeah, and it's just making peace of it and

understanding that it's okay not to motivate all the time. You

know, the more you beat yourself up about it, that's going to

make you move further away. The second thing to focus on, which

I think is a myth. A lot of people think I need to be

motivated to take action. I don't feel motivated to make

calls today. I don't feel motivated to do this home admin

task, whatever it might be, or paint the walls or something.

You know, I don't feel motivated now. I always ask people like,

if you go for a workout, if you go to the gym, if you go for a

run, like, how do you feel afterwards? How do you feel

after you go for your walk, say, in the morning without a phone.

I know how I feel. How much better my wife,

remarkably, says, I can tell you've done some exercise this

week and you have thing, because you're basically a nicer person.

Yeah, so the answer there is, you feel really

good at the end of it, like you. And that's the thing. Is,

motivation comes from action. A lot of people perceive I need

motivation to act, but action can spark motivation, and the

realization of that is it puts you more in control of your own

motivation. And go, hang on. This is something I can

influence. I'm not at the mercy of. If I didn't wake up today,

motivate. That's okay because I've been asleep for eight

hours. Like, yes, I can wake up some days and, you know, but

some days I can't. And that's alright, but it's then going,

What can I do to spark motivation, rather than I don't

feel motivated? Is, what can I do right now? I could go for a

walk, I could put on a playlist, I could speak to someone I know

is going to get me into a good headspace.

And thinking about that, it's helpful from a sort

of self service perspective, if you're a leader listening to

this in a growth environment. What? What what are some of the

things that you could do to encourage your people not to

stay motivated, but to manage this situation? Like, what would

you suggest?

Well I think the other thing here is that leaders

should focus less on, how do I motivate my team, and more, how

do I inspire them? So, you know, you it's physically impossible

to motivate someone else, because the idea, as well, the

problems that come from that is you can. Make people overly

dependent on you. And then if you're on holiday, or the team

gets bigger, they have less time with you. Then they start going,

Oh, you've, you've because they rely on you so much, they start

sort of criticizing you more, going, Well, why do you have as

much time for me as well? The team's gone from five to 20, and

when you when they leave, they'll then realize, oh,

actually, like, hang on, I haven't built any tools here the

tools. So I think the biggest thing that a manager can help

with this is, first of all, better understanding what your

team's aspirations are. We talk a lot about motivation, but

inspiration and aspiration often get overlooked. Is like, what

are you trying to build towards? And the analogy often use here.

If you're going past a building site, we'll get curious. Don't

we have what they building? This person's walking past one day,

and he asked the first person he sees, and I'm playing bricks,

and he goes, don't know what that pretty means. Next person

building a wall. Okay, don't really understand. Goes along

site managers there, what are you building? They say, we're

building a hospital. Now, I often ask people, what's the

most important thing there? It's a bit of a trick question,

because they all are but it's quite an interesting question to

ask people, because some people go the bricks, some people go to

hospital. Hang on, if you're focusing on if you're focusing

on the hospital, who's going to build it, focusing on the

bricks? Which way are you going if you're not focusing on the

walls? That's a big gap in between. And what you want to

look at is, do you understand your team's hospital, their own

individual one, and encouraging them not just have one, because

you don't want them to put all their identity. What are they

trying to build towards? Have you helped them identify their

walls along the way, because laying a brick and building

hospital are two big things apart. And then have you helped

them understand what the habits would be the bricks each day to

be able to get there? Because then once you understand

someone's hospital, you then know what was inspiring them, or

how to inspire them, and you know what kind of conversations

to have with them going You said you wanted to work towards this,

like, what have you done this week around that? Or what can I

do to support you here? Or when they're maybe feeling a bit off,

is going, what's what's changed? Is this something you still want

to achieve?

And it talks right to you know, what good leadership,

if I think about what good leadership is, is coaching, is

helping someone like that, like you said, the inspiration,

asking questions to drive that, that thought and understanding

what it is that somebody needs, rather than saying, Okay, well,

yeah, I need to motivate you. So I'm gonna carry you to your

point. Because then, when you've got your hands full of everybody

and you need to put some people down, they feel dropped, versus

being able to say, actually, I need to help. I'm sort of right

behind you, just giving you nudges, just reminding you of

the important things.

Yeah, exactly. It's it's going and some leaders

struggle with this because they then think, hang on, this is

where their own self tool comes in. Are they going to think less

of me if I'm not giving them an answer? Are they going to think

I'm not giving them a support? Am I? Am I going to look like

I'm not leading, if I'm not doing for people, or...

Am I going to frustrate them by not giving

them an answer? I think a lot of leaders think by asking great

coaching questions and coaching someone in that way and really

helping inspire them, as you say that you're just sort of taking

the easy road and not answering a question, so you're actually

frustrating the person who's just asking for support.

Yeah, I think there is, again, it's sometimes

people go into this black or white, thinking I even need to

ask really great questions, or I need to give them everything.

And it's at the start, almost imagining, like stabilizers is

going. How can I do a bit of both? How can I ask a question?

If I see someone who's getting a bit frustrated or stressed, I

can give them a hint, and then I can say, and what else do you

think? So, I might say, ask them a question. You know, how would

you go about this? You said you wanted to achieve this. What

would that look like for your week? Maybe this okay? And

here's something that worked for me based on that. What else do

you think could work for you and what else and what else? And

just kind of balancing the two, rather than thinking, I have to

go down this route, because that's where some people

struggle with they go, have to be a coach, and then your team's

getting really frustrated, and you either abandon that and

think, Well, I'm not going to try that again, or you stick at

it and then you just frustrate people in your teams. They never

come to you for any questions, because they just think, Oh,

he's just going to reverse it back to me all the time.

Yeah. I mean, that's, again, a really, I think,

really, really powerful, important point there around

think about that kind of key takeaway there of not trying to

motivate, but trying to inspire, I think, or might help a lot of

leaders in changing their kind of mindset or approach to that.

Yeah, Chris, I'm interested, because a lot, a lot

what you talk about, a lot, what you author, a lot, what you

support your clients with, is, is like the turbocharged version

of, we do three parts to our work at SBR systems. So, you

know, what are your processes in your organization to enable your

sales leadership, marketing leadership, sales effectiveness,

and marketing effectiveness work, we talk a lot about the

skills naturally we've, you know, we've got to be quite

skillful as professionals. And we also about, you know, the

mindset as well. So motivation you talk about, you talk a lot

about unproductive thinking patterns at the moment, which

really black and white thinking you've talked about some others

today. I'm really curious if, if we had a panel of like, you

know, CROs in front of us, right? Do you how would you

think they index those three things skills per. Processes,

systems and motivations to be the thing that's going to drive

growth. What's their perception at the moment when you're

talking to CROs, is it? Do they downplay the motivation? That's

what I'm probably biasing here a little bit. Or where do you

think they think about things at moment?

I think it's very easy again to look at the

tangible thing that's in front of us, the skill we need to give

them more product training. We need to give them more objection

handling training. It's like, well, hang on, have you talked

about the objections in their own head, the self talk? You

know, those blockers? Yeah, exactly. Great one. It's going

we need to give them time management. What about how they

manage their energy? Like, I kind of address this in the

book. Is, like, there's so much of the foundation underneath

that, that this is built on, is you can give, you know, in in

sales, in any environment, you know, we're looking at

technology, we're giving people more access to tools. And the

biggest tool you have is your mind, and if you're not taking

care of it, then you're not going to be someone isn't going

to be able to fully sort of equip themselves, or able to

take full group, full sort of ownership of the skill set side

of things, or the system side of things as well, because they've

got their own self talk and challenges going on around it.

So I definitely think it is something that it's, I wouldn't

say, like universal blanket approach. There are certainly

more people now recognizing the value of it, but there's that

almost balance. Sometimes of thinking, Oh, it's more of a

tick box exercise. Sometimes, of we just need to do this to make

them feel good. And it's like, okay, you know, you might make

them feel good in the moment, but then they're going to go

back and you're almost doing more harm than good, because

they're like, we know why you did that.

Yeah. Well, I'm a massive advocate of it. I know

that some of your clients that we know of as well, I've spoken

to them, they that they rave about you. They think you're

phenomenal, and clear you are because you've got a great

business. I just think about the impact of wellbeing. And I work

with a financial wellbeing organization, and I was like,

why on earth is financial wellbeing not one of the biggest

things that's spoken about in school? It's just, let alone

actually wellbeing as a whole. So I think, you know, in

business, if we, you know, if we can start to bring in some of

these ideas, I think it would just be great for us, not only

at work, but also outside of work. And that's the impact,

isn't it? You can take these techniques out.

Yeah. I've probably related more of what you've

talked about to outside of work type situations. In my own life.

It's so, so important. As I said before, it's not just about what

we do in here, but I think or what we do in our in our jobs,

but I think also is this is a real lever for success, and I'm

thinking about tying this right the way back from because I know

with the Run Club, it's about providing that space to help

your mental well being. And how exercise is such a great not

just exercise. I know you talk more about this, there's other

reasons why that works in the in running specifically, but also

just the impact that your health and how you look after your

body, and how that impacts the way you can look after your

mind, and how it's all tied together. And I think it's great

that we're getting more that this is a this is a more sort of

recognized conversation to be having, I think. And I think the

more it gets into businesses, and more it gets into that kind

of psyche, and I'm not suggesting that all businesses

should start, kind of run clubs and put gyms in the basement and

everything else, but actually, there's something to be said for

people in your teams feeling like they've got the opportunity

to go. I just need to get outside for a bit. I just need

to step away from my desk and go and, you know, and go and do

this I've just done. I've got 100 calls to do today. I can't

just sit here and and back to back those otherwise I'm just

going to be completely shot.

Yeah, and that kind of ties into psychological

safety is knowing that there's a company. You're not saying that

people can turn up as not themselves every day and but

you're telling them, when they do, they will feel safe to be

able to talk about it, and they'll feel understood, and

they'll feel like, supported. That's the kind of key

difference here, around that and going that I do have that space

to go out from my desk, and I feel like I'm not going to get

judged, or other people are gonna be like, Oh, you're weak,

or this person always needs to go outside. Is it's normalized.

It's actually like, celebrated, oh, it's good that you got out.

Like, rather than, why'd you keep leaving the office? Like,

why aren't you back at your desk?

So the previous job, we used to have a Friday lunch

Run Club, and we'd always kind of go out for and I think it was

helped by the fact that obviously this was pre covid

When we were all in the office. Was helped by the fact that we

were there was a group of us. So it was almost like, hang on that

that you talk about normalizing it all of a sudden. That gives

other people who maybe didn't feel like they feel like they

had that freedom. And, you know, at the time, it was a group of

senior people in the business who were doing that right, like

we were, we were the leadership team, essentially. So again, you

then then people who were looking around going, you know,

they've gone out and they're taking that time, and they've

come back and they had their lunch, and they're not

apologizing for for doing that. I think that's so important.

Yeah, and then that psychological safety piece,

yeah, it's something that, when we, we do a lot with growth

officers and, you know, learning and development professionals or

CPOs, and you always hear like, the the growth officers that

push is just pushing them so hard. And I wonder, what's that?

Self talk, as you were talking about in their own head, which

means it's translating to their individual contributors and

their other leadership members. But then the CPO say, well,

we've got to remember about psychological safety. And then

the Cgo or CROs, go, Nah, don't worry about it. We've just got

to get going. So I think there's a bit of friction that goes on

in businesses about psychological safety. Have you

seen that?

Yeah, and I think, again, it's down to no

one's fault, but a lack of education, understanding of the

value that that comes from it, first and foremost for the

individual. And you know how they'll benefit from it, that

will then subsequently benefit the business as a result. Yeah,

yeah. You know, it's like going, if you treat the person as the

person that they'll then, you know, it's a bit like when say

Trust, the process is like, well, trust the person. Take

care of the person. They'll take care of the process, and the

process will work. So if you're saying one thing is a business,

trust the process, follow our sales process, well, give people

that space to feel supported within it, and then they'll

trust the process. It needs to work both ways. And some

companies don't. They say, well, trust the process, but we don't

care about that kind of safety side of things, it's the

process...

We're going to hammer you forecast accuracy,

because now we can see it, because we've got a new process.

Yeah? Oh yeah, no, thanks. Mr. Boss, Mrs. Boss. I'm not going

to do that.

Yeah. But I think one thing like, because

I'm always conscious of podcasts or I had, what's this tangibly

mean? And I think one thing that leaders and I see people

struggle with sometimes is they see vulnerability and

accountability on opposing scales, and I will if the more

vulnerable I am, or the more like we give people that

freedom, the less accountable they're going to be. And that,

again, that could be black and white thinking in place. It's

not always the case. And I think the best thing about

vulnerability is it builds relatability. And vulnerability

doesn't always have to be, oh, you know, I'm really struggling

today, and this is what's going on. It can be coupled with guys,

do you know what? Actually, I'm having a bit of a I spoke to

this was a senior leader, and he had a group of people on a on a

zoom, about 70 or 80 people. CRO, and you know, how is

everyone murmuring as he goes, guys, I'm having a really

stressful day. But you know what? I'm going to go out for a

run at lunch, and this is going to, like, really help me. I'm

gonna leave my phone in the office, and I'm gonna go for a

run, and the key one there, everyone else afterwards, you

know what? Me too, like, you know, Oh, it didn't, it didn't

say, oh, everyone can just have the day off. But that's the

thing, if, when you're being vulnerable, if you can give

people an idea of, here's how you here's how I can deal with

it the same time or not saying, here's an instant solution, but

here's something I'm going to try. Then you give people that

space and freedom to feel like actually, I can. I'm allowed to

feel like this as well, not in the way of I can just go and

moan about it or vent about it all week. But something like

that is still constructed to talk through, but talking

through it in a way of just getting out there and then

finding something. And I think some leaders then go, I can't be

vulnerable. I can't be like this. It's going well. Think

about your stories. You know, think about, I often say, like

your superhero origin story, like, because some people might

see you as this leader who is like, oh my god, they're so

confident, they're so calm. Is like, you won't like that all

the time. Tell people, hey, look, I used to struggle with

this, and this is how I deal with it. And this kind of links

into resilience. Because I think one of the things that people

misunderstand resilience is that it's not just about you, it's

about other people. You could be the most resilient person. And

we'll take an example here. Let's say a business has had 40

people. They've cut 50% of their staff. They've got 20 now let's

say 10 people are have been there for a while. They think I

can handle this. I'm resilient. I'm fine. 10 people aren't those

10 people that aren't see the people that are fine, and go,

they're fine. Why am I not me? They then start, maybe starting

thinking negatively and worrying. And then you got 50%

your business that's creating this culture here that is then

going to start impacting the other 50% who were fine in the

first place, that are now in an environment that isn't the most

healthy. And maybe go, I don't want to be in this environment.

I'm going to leave. So you can use it's important to realize

how much that kind of collective resilience is important as well.

When you look at it in sport, you look at it and what's going

on in the world right now, that kind of collective resilience is

what really gets people together. So yes, you want to

take care of yourself, and I don't like this, put your own

oxygen mask on first, because, again, it's a very reactive

thing that only happens often. When the plane's going down is

like, Well, how do you do it? How can you take care of

yourself before the plane's going down? Is what I often say.

But then also think about the collective so if you are a

leader or a senior person in the team, and you deal with things

really well, don't forget to share with people around you of

how you've got to that position. And here's what I used to

struggle, here's how I used to react, and here's what I did to

get there, and here's how I see it now.

This has been one of the most thought provoking

conversations I've ever for a long, long while. So thank you.

You're welcome. And the tangible takeaways that you know, as I

say back, we resonate with these sort of things, and not only

because of a business, because we do similar things and we come

from the same, you know, backgrounds in that respect, you

know, sports coaching was my background, you know, from sort

of learning these these models, it's just resonates. But

actually, I think sometimes I haven't given enough thought or

time to put into practice. So I think your book with all of

those frameworks will be those things where I'm going to go on

the Christmas list, please, and then actually just take some

time. You know. A four box model, rather than a, rather

than a list. You know, overwhelming happens on an awful

lot in my my year, you were saying recently about, you know,

you get towards the end of the year and, you know, the fumes

are...

Annual Christmas burnout, yeah. Yeah. And I

completely agree, Johnny. And I think actually having those,

having those really practical things, Chris, for people to

sort of take away and and put into practice. And I think

something we've heard over the last few guests that we've had

on the podcast is around, I think patience and pace is so,

so important. With all of this, right? We can't fix this,

where's no fixing anything anyway, but we can't enact all

of this stuff overnight. It's a journey that we've got to go on

and for leaders thinking about their teams, and for individuals

thinking about themselves, we got to think about it that way,

right?

Yeah. Well, I think there's a balance here. I

think is being patient, but still taking action within the

action. So some people will say, sometimes, when I talk about

things easier said than done, that's the biggest limiting

belief you can tell yourself, because as soon you say it's

easier said than done, you won't do it. No, yeah, exactly, yeah,

everything is easier said than done, yes, but being patient

with something, giving yourself that compassion to go look the

tools I talked about today, and I talk about this in the book,

don't expect to master them straight away. It's okay. Some

days you might forget to do the brain dump. Some days you might

find it really frustrating, and that's okay. Or the other tools,

I noticed they neutralize, but that's the point is, use them

before you need them, like you drink water before you're

dehydrated, you eat before you're absolutely starving.

Like, do the same thing with these kind of tools. Be patient

with them, but also then try and practice that habitual practice

proactively. And go, yes, I want to give myself time, but I still

want to be intentional with this, to allow it to resonate.

Intentional, yeah, I think intentional kind of sums

up a lot of what we've talked about today. So yeah, as Johnny

said, Chris, it's been incredibly insightful. Thank you

so much for coming on the growth workshop podcast and all the

very best with the book, I'm sure it's gonna be a massive

success, based on what we've heard today, and I very much

look forward to reading it.

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Thanks, Chris.

Cheers.