Hajiya Halima Ben Umar is a Nigerian public intellectual and the Executive Director at Women in Media Communication Initiative. She is based in Kano, northern Nigeria, where she also co-anchors the popular TV programme Mata A Yau, Women Today in Hausa, that you will also hear discussed in the conversation. Ben Umar speaks with Gaddafi about fighting for the rights of women in Islam while being a working mother of three; her tensions and collaborations with Islamic scholars; her Islamically-inspired engagement with a range of social problems such as drug use, mental health, and teenage pregnancies; and the importance of educating young girls - and what happens if a society fails to do so.

David Ehrhardt

Welcome to Africa Knows. Hajiya Halima Ben Umar is a Nigerian public intellectual and the executive director at Women in Media Communication Initiative.

She's based in Kano in Northern Nigeria, where she also co-anchors the popular TV program Mata A Yau, which is Women Today in Hausa, that you'll also hear discussed in the conversation. Ben Umar speaks with Gaddafi about fighting for the rights of women in Islam while being a working mother of three.

Her tensions and collaborations with Islamic scholars, her Islamically inspired engagement with a range of social problems such as drug use, mental health and teenage pregnancy, and the importance of educating young girls and what happens if a society fails to do so. Here is Hajiyya Ben Umar.

Gaddafi Abubakar

Do you regard yourself as a human rights activist or feminist?

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

Yeah. Yes. No, not feminist, human rights activist.

Because when I'm working on a group of us who are working on women's rights and our main thing is women's rights in Islam, so we are not looking at other conventional rights, the UN rights for women and so on. Because if you compare that with Islam, you realize that Islam has given us more rights than any other convention.

And because when I'm in the US you wouldn't even recognize me because I hardly put my veil on the head. So I always wear. He knows, I always wear my (...) like this. I hardly cover my.

But if you see me in the airport and I'm going to the US or uk, you won't even recognize me because that is when I'm fully covered. And so when I was in the US and then this person who was not even a Muslim, did a workshop on the rights of women.

And so there are a lot of duplications. She doesn't even understand what Islam is. So I said, okay, let me do a presentation of rights of women in Islam.

And so I applied for it and they approved. So when they approved, I was meeting... I have friends within the Somali communities in the U.S. so I started talking to them.

This is what I want, she says. They say, okay, they have some religious leaders, they can lift me up.

So I did the first draft on rights of women in Islam, which I sent to late Mala Amin. I sent it to him and then I saw a newspaper coated and I saw the email of Emir of Khan Mahmoud.

So I also introduced myself and I emailed him the presentation. So I got a review of it and then he added a lot of things. He has never… I, I don't even know him.

I just saw he used to have a column, I think in Daily Trust. That is why I said yes. So. So I sent him the presentation and I sent to Mala Amin…

So after their feedback and corrections, I now send it to a religious leader in Ohio who is also Somali. Okay. So they looked at it and then I submitted the presentation. So they gave us a room of 30 people.

So they were expecting at least 30 people to sign up to come and listen. Then from 30, it goes to 40 to 50 because people are really interested to know the rights of women in Islam.

So, you know, Americans are curious. So. So from a conference room of 30 people, we ended up with almost 400 something capacity. And then so some people have to sit on the floor.

And so I said to the two religious leaders, I said, I can do the presentation, but there are certain questions that… I'm not an Islamic scholar, I might not be able to answer. So if you can help, I can do the presentation. And you can do the can discussion. You can answer questions.

They said fine. So I did the presentation. It's like a 15 minutes presentation because, you know, you don't want to keep people.

So it was a 15 minutes presentation, but we were there for almost 2 hours, 30 minutes, questions and answers about Islam. The most interesting they found is for you to feed your child. If you ask the husband to pay, he must pay. So that is, wow.

This is your right to be paid to breastfeed your child? interesting. And it is your right to stay at home. You don't have to cook. He has to cook or get somebody to cook.

And you, you have your right to go and look for knowledge. If he cannot teach or bring somebody to …. Wow. So these things. And they also the issue on rights to sexual satisfaction, they were saying they have never heard of this. So they were really curious. They were asking questions. And so he, he answered them with a quote from the Holy Quran or the Hadith. And he translate.

He say it in Arabic and then he translate. So it became very interesting. And so many women were saying this should be part of their lives. Exactly. So. So these are some of the things that.

Gaddafi Abubakar

What are the main challenges for being a human rights activist in northern Nigeria, in the core north here? I know there are challenges.

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

A lot of challenges. A lot of challenges. There was. There is still. He's still a religious leader. He. He has a mosque.

There is no Friday in that. He will not abuse us. With that, We are talking about rights of women. With that are working in the development work.

We that are working in the bank lawyers the only people he doesn't abuse much, they are the medical professionals, the doctors, even the nurses. He abuse them every Friday. And particularly Hajj, particularly Hajimiro. He will call her name.

Mohi will just say for us, he will just say those who are saying they are women's rights activists. He will call her name. And so that is one challenge. Then she started a hip adolescent health and information project. Okay, so.

So they truly believed that she is just teaching young people how to be promiscuous. And they have never been to her office, they have never checked what she is doing. And that is one of our weakness as Muslims.

There are some religious leaders, they don't want to open up, they don't want to understand, they don't want to know. And as a religious leader, you have to know, you have to understand. So then that is one.

Then the second one is religious leaders will look at me in the eyes and call me I'm a Jew or I'm a Christian because I'm doing what the Jews are pushing me to do. I'm doing what the Christians are pushing me to do. And so I always take them back to rights of women in Islam. What has Jews got to do with it?

What are Christians got to do with it?

Gaddafi Abubakar

They are in the teachings of Islam.

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

Exactly, exactly. So that is it. And then another big challenge is how to balance your work and your house.

As a married woman, you have a husband and you have your children. Exactly. And the children were growing up then. So it's also a challenge. It has been a very hard task.

But I've always been saying it, if you have a supportive husband, because whatever a woman does, if she doesn't have the approval and the support of her husband, she's not moving an inch. So this is something that we have always been advocating. Make sure your husband is behind you.

Make sure whatever you do, even for you to rest peacefully in your cupboard, you know, you just have to make sure your husband is with you. If he says no, take it as no. If he says yes, then project yourself because he has given you the trust.

So always remember you are married and you are Muslim. But that has really been difficult for me. Then my, I have small, I have a two year old then.

And I have a five year old and then I have an eight year old. So for me it's not an age that I can just leave them at home.

So, so I always, when they started school then it was a bit, okay, so my grandmother is there, I have two House help. And then I'm always calling. Then it was landline. So I'm always calling every hour, especially when they close from school.

I will call, you know, just to make sure that you give your children the best training possible. So this is it. And so of course the work is very tedious. Yeah. Sometimes we close office. It's also one of my challenges. You close office around 7, 8.

Because you have a deadline to meet. And then if you finish with that, that deadline tomorrow, as you come another deadline. Deadline is waiting for you on the table.

Gaddafi Abubakar

That's the nature.

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

Yeah. Sometimes we spend like up to 10 in the office. And then your husband is there and the children are there. So we have been through so much.

Gaddafi Abubakar

But Alhamdulillah, what do you think can be done to create more understanding between you and Islamic scholars?

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

Well, for me. For me, what I started doing, if I have a project, for instance, I have a project looking at family planning.

And I told them I want to look at it from Islamic perspective. So looking at it from Islamic perspective, I went to Malambouzam in Salihanga. You know, he's well learned. He understands things.

So as Ibrahim Khalil and the rest of them. But particularly I will go with the project document. I never hide whatever JH wants me to do. I take the project to religious leaders.

This is what I'm supposed to implement in Kano. Can you help me look at it? How can we turn it around to be Islamic perspective?

So when I started doing that, then I started getting the confidence of the religious leaders. I started getting confidence of Mala Ibrahim Khalil. I started getting confidence of Malaji. He was then the council of Ulama's chairman. Okay.

Kabu kabu. So I was every bit of the step of the project. I'm supposed to. I'm open. I've opened up. Yeah. So if they give advice, I now talk to Jhu.

I write officially. I wrote say. Okay, this is it. This is kanu. This way. You want us to go? We can't go it. We.

It has to be in conjunction with Islamic teachers if we want people to accept. So that was how, you know, we are building. Even when I'm doing the matter, when we're getting abuses. Yes. Religious leaders are the ones calling you.

Gaddafi Abubakar

Tell us more about Mata A Yau. Okay. What is the program about? How do you find yourself in the program?

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

Well, Mata A Yau. I always featured in Zamantakewa before Mata A Yau, Is it still.

Yes, their program. Okay. So there is a segment on Zamantakewa. Okay. So Ashalol always invites me to come.

So I always go to do first, second court on an issue that concerns women issues around Zamantakewa. You know, family relationship between the husband and the wives, relationship between the wife and the her in law and so on.

So one day I was saying to Aisha, I say, why don't you do a program for women? Specifically for women. She said, yes, they have it on the pipeline. Okay. And she said, hafsa that one of the a host.

She said she also sent them a proposal that can look at how we can discuss issues, women's issues. So she said, we'll get back to you because this is something that we are planning. So I just got a call that I should go for addition.

I say, audition for what? I went and I saw young, young, young Yara Soma. I've given birth to them. I was like, actually, what is this?

Auntie, Auntie Juma is an audition for program. I said, me? She said. I said, no, no, no, no, no. I won't be part of it all this. I'm the one mentoring young woman and you want me to.

I said, my time is up. She said, but he insisted you have to be on the program. I said, I can't do any addition. He said, you know my, my worst nightmare?

She said, I said, all the jobs that I am doing is only when I was called to do an interview. If you want to get the best out of me, just tell me. Come for a discussion. In the process, you are interviewing me, but I'm having a discussion with you. So you can get a lot out of me. Exactly. But if you tell me it's an interview, it's like you have boxed me in the corner. You won’t get much from me.

Gaddafi Abubakar

Is it a phobia?

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

Yeah! That's why when I'm. When we're recruiting people in, in wim, I just said them, just come for a discussion because I know I hate interviews.

So she said, okay, just come in for the audition. So I went. Then I was doing a program, Raiwar Matter in AR tv. It's a live program Saturday. Okay. The kano television. The kind of television.

And then they just stopped. They gave some conditions, you know, you have to work with have. I said, I don't. I don't like to put myself in that wahala. So I did and I left.

So after like three, two months, they called me. I said, look, I'm in the hospital because I have broken my arm. I have fractured my arm.

So I said, I but they, I but then they were pushing, pushing so we started it. And since we started, there are a lot of topics that we have been discussing.

We have several topics exactly on the relationship, health issues, you know, drugs, population, all this and the women entrepreneurs.

Gaddafi Abubakar

Which of the topics do you think put you much on a controversy?

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

Well, the issue, the issue. The first issue when we discuss issue of relationship between the husband and the wife and you know, as women and every topic. I never sat on that chair without researching on the topic we are going to discuss whether I'm hosting or I'm not hosting.

Gaddafi Abubakar

Because you are rotating the.

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

Yes, I don't want to sit on that chair without knowing what the research says.

Oh yeah, we were not allowed to talk about Islam, but we still say I even in Islam and nabi sallallahu alaihi wasallam.

Gaddafi Abubakar

the Prophet.

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

So they are saying, okay, if there are Islamic topics, if there are topics that we want us to look at it from Islamic perspective, then they will invite a religious leader. We are very comfortable with that because we are supposed to be neutral. I say I'm neutral, but I'm still a Muslim.

So you cannot tell me to be neutral because I know so mostly if you see, I always say the two major religions, Islam and Christianity, if that is what they want. But I know Islam is always number one. So the two major religions, Islam and Christianity, I will say the two major religions, even Islam.

Islam did not say, I'm not sure about the Saka religion. I don't know what it says, but I know Islam has said this, this, this.

So they tried to stop, they couldn't stop it because Aisha doesn't have a problem. She's the executive director of the program. So we, we were talking about issue around marriage.

And so we talked about Islamically, both a man and a woman, they don't have to get married. But, and I emphasize but, but three times with condition. If you are sure you can follow those conditions, then you don't have to get married.

But remember, if you get married, everything in that marriage is mandatory for you to follow it. You don't have an excuse. So we were talking about how men, how some men are treating women.

And so we give a statistics of this percentage of men, this is how they treat their wives. These are the percentages of women that treats their husbands badly and so on.

So Marlon from Triumph says we don't even have the audacity to sit on that table and discuss issues. So he's a famous Islamic scholar. Yes, So I now said. And I sent him a message.

I said, tell him I know if I am not older than his mother, to be the same age with his mother. Because my first daughter, if he is 41, then he's the same age with my first daughter. So that means I've given birth to him.

So who has the audacity to come and discuss marriage? I said, I know the sweetness of marriage. I know the bitterness of marriage. There is nothing I don't know in marriage life. So I was like, so.

And then we had some lecturers from Buki that went to him this mosque and they told him off. Have you ever watched the program? He said, no, that is being told. Yes. So I was like, then you are not even at Amala.

Because if people Islamically, if somebody reports you, reports me to you, and you need to balance, you need to call me or to sit and watch that program. At least if you cannot watch all, just take one episode and look at it and criticize. So that one, we were getting abuses. So that one passed.

Because there's a lot of warning. People were warning him, people were abusing him. We've been all seeing it.

Then the next one was this guy sent us a letter saying please we should advise. His wife does everything a woman should do to her husband. Everything, every respect, everything. There's only one thing she doesn't do. She doesn't say good morning in the morning.

And that's all of us a problem to you? Yes. So all of us were you greet her now that she doesn't greet you? Yeah. That is the only thing that is missing in the marriage.

So we were like all of us, you know, we said it together except for, for Hafsa. All of us. Ah, okay, Say hello to her. What is it? Since you can't.

And he taught us that his neighbor told him to divorce her because of that, because of that.

So all the religious leaders that abused us, they didn't see that side, that just because she didn't greet for you to say, for a neighbor to tell you, just divorce her with that said, just say hello to her. What is the big deal? If you say hello to her, what is the big deal? So that was an issue. That became an issue. It's an issue.

That became an issue we were about. Several religious leaders were abusing us. So the first thing my husband did, so two of them, they were saying, can continue.

Then their sister, senior sister, called me. She was crying, telling me, please stop. Okay, Please stop. She's the oldest. And then my husband was. He said, why? Why should…?

She is not a loggerhead with Islam. If she is before you, any of you say, stop, I will tell her to stop. Exactly. She's making an impact everywhere.

People that knows I'm her husband, they always say, please greet her, tell her we're enjoying her program. God bless her. They say, continue. So almighty Allah gave me the strength, you know, to. To. To absorb it.

And then his support has then tremendously helped because without his support, I. I don't know what would have happened. And then I have some religious leaders who, if I mention their names, you know them, they were calling me a please, please don't stop.

So several times I would say, I wouldn't go. I will not go for like a month. And then people will call me. We've not been seeing you. Please.

And if I travel out of Nigeria, out of Kano, out of Nigeria, if I'm in a train station the whole two hours, plus where I'm seated, you see people around me talking. So that inspired me a lot with all the prayers when I traveled out, I put my face mask, I put my dark glasses, but if I say a word, they will say… She's the one. Because this voice… I don't know what to do with this. Familiar. Honestly. Yes. So it has been a challenge.

But then I'm happy with it because so many things are changing. Women are realizing their rights. Women are realizing the best way to hold their marriage. People are realizing how.

Because we always tell them the weight that is on you, that Allah put on you, implement it. Let him not do what God says he should do. Because even if you die the same day, you will all be going to put on a separate grid.

So we are always advocating for women. And we've always been telling women. Let me say. I don't know how to say this in English,... that they have more sense than us, okay? Men have more sense.

More sense than women. Yes. But for Munkuma, as women, we are very wise. A woman can know how to take this away from you.

You know, there are a thousand ways that she can talk to you. She can do this, and she can take this away. So why don't you give him that respect?

Because a husband, if you give him that respect, you acknowledge he's the husband, he's the head of household. Very few you will find difficult. And when we discuss issues around drug use, you find people, known faces calling you. Please link me up with a doctor. My son is doing this. Oh, my daughter is doing this. And we link them up.

At some point Amini Kanu says, just give them the number they should say it's from. You don't have to call. So there's a lot of progress.

You know the doctors that will always call to as guests in Mata A Yau, they are always ready to get as many patients from Mata A Yau as possible. We have people coming, like during the protest, just two days to the protest. People are coming to area 24 asking for me particularly.

They want to talk to… They will tell them we don't have her number. We don't even know her name. They said because they cannot… if they will be sending people.

They say these people will be jam packed. Your house will be jam packed, definitely. But this girl, this young woman came from Abuja. She's Maiduguri, she's from Maiduguri. Residing in Abuja.

She's married in Abuja. So she came, she went to their office in Rescos. The director had to come here.

But then it was late, so she had to go back to the park and slept in the park. Then the following morning she came to artv. She met one of the staff. She said she wanted to talk to me, she wants to see me.

He was like, I don't know. They started crying. Wallahi she swear that she's going to commit suicide. So by the word suicide. He now called. He now called me.

I'm in Dowra because I was going into Tunisia. In fact, I was even in… You know, she sold her phone from. From Abuja to come. She doesn't know anybody and it's you she wants to see.

I said, okay, let me link you up with my auntie Ina Ajay Aisha ABubakar. So she. She's working in a project.

She's much older than me, but she's still working in a project around domestic violence, violence against women, trafficking and so on. So I now said, but let me call her. I called her and I told her, she said, fine. So I linked them up.

But two days (...) saying she wanted to commit suicide. I had to do what I'm doing in Egypt to come back before the. 1 August protest.

But you know the interesting thing, by the time we talked with her, her family, she even has some family at region. She said whenever she wants to go home, they were discouraging her. You don't even come to her house, blah blah blah.

Because nobody even listened to her. But by the time we sat with her and the husband, what she does to the husband, Allah, even the dog will not eat. Oh so well.

I was like, then you better go on to commit suicide. Then you have two issues. One for committing suicide, one for disrespecting, abusing your husband. You are on your own.

I said, she said… she started crying. So up till, up till today I'm still talking to him, talking to her. Up to now she. She refused to calm down and wallah he is doing the best he can.

The best he can because he cannot give her what he doesn't have. But he feeds her, he cloth her, he give up. The money he gives is not much.

But Alhamdulillah, someone will not give you one because there is food in the house. Money is giving her say it's just why if she wants to buy something? Because everything is made available. So. So this is it.

So Alhamdulillah, I'm really enjoying the work. Honestly, it's tedious.

But if you can make a difference of just one, one person, if you can change the behavior of one person, then you are set to go.

Gaddafi Abubakar

Exactly. Do you think the Muslim north collectively as a people, are we getting it right on the issue of girl child education?

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

No.

And without apology. Without apology. When I think there was time when we started talking about the girl child education. I was in Zamfara doing a project.

The project I told you, married adolescent project. We were talking about education, educating the girl child.

And this religious leader was telling me after all, why do we want the girl child to be educated while we have young girls at the university, they have become rascal. They are what they are drug addict. He mentioned and I said to him, the girl child.

I said, we have a research that we did in Kano with 16 other states. All young people from university and other tertiary institutions. We were in Tahit for a good two weeks because we are doing a formative assessment.

So we brought them together to develop the guide questions. After developing the guide questions, Awolika was with us. Then we have to pre test Awolikao and some team went to ask the to Murtana. Okay?

Yes, City hospital. And they brought girls that are not in school, out of school. Some are out of school, some have not even been to school.

The oldest then was 13 years. And they came and we were doing the the, the. The question. They are telling them the question. So it came to a place where child abandonment.

Because it came from the question that young people get… I get pregnant, they give birth and they abandon the baby. And they are not married. One of them laugh, hey. And they do this, you know, two of them.

Why would you even. She's even stupid. She didn't even know what she's new. So Dr. Nan talked with the consultant. Okay, what, what she should have done.

There are drugs that can stop her from being pregnant. She can take pills. So they listed about four or five protection that a girl can use so that she doesn't get pregnant.

And then this girl, she was 11 years old. She said, those ones are even expensive, you have to go and buy. Then she said, potash, the red one. Okay, okay. She just laughed.

She said, just get your cup, just do a little bit. She, she was demonstrating with her. Just do like this twice dilute inside a cup of water.

She said, you move it after you are done, just take it and drink. There is no way you'll be pregnant. And if you forget, if you forgot to use it, then the following day you can do it. It still works. an 11 years old.

I've been married then for almost 30 decades. I’ve never heard of this. And she was saying, then she said, you don't even know another thing.

So you don't even know if you take a pinch just as small as the head of a fly and if a woman inserted it in, pleasure will be all over. Whoever sleeps with her will keep coming back. So I was like, come round and do this to me. As old as I am then my first daughter was.

She was in management level one. And I've been married for all those. And she closed. So I gave them this story. I said, and the report is there.

I said, so what are we telling ourselves? At least give her the education. Look at these girls, Potash. Yes, they are talking about Guru.

All the things they are talking are traditional things that might, will not even work. Exactly. So give them the education, tell them, teach them the implication of what they are doing. And they can only get that in school.

If you do this, this is the repercussion. At least give them the knowledge, give them the education. Even when she gets married, she will know how to rear her children.

She will know how to take care of her household. She will know how to respect her husband, but give her that education. So it's an issue.

They kept saying, the Jew and the Oibos are the ones that are putting in things to us. Then I asked man, I said what was the first thing that was revealed from the Quran? He said read, read.

I said to then why are you denying them the right to read? Because I know Islamically when I'm growing up, my parents will have to teach me. As soon as I get married, the responsibilities is on my husband.

And Islam says if he cannot do it, he should bring somebody. If he cannot bring somebody, I should go up to sing to get that knowledge.

Yes, but still people are seeing it as a negative thing. Giving the girl child education. Now I was in Lagos last year. I went for a visa and we were driving one street in Victoria Island.

Honestly, you think you are incarcerating market here in Kano? In Kano, girls, eight, nine purely house girls. Older women, older men. They have boys that are holding their sticks.

They have small girls that are carrying their sticks. And my daughter, she's not my biological daughter, but my daughter, she said look those girls, they are pregnant. They are just small, small.

…uneducated girls uneducated. Because if the north has cons have concentrated in the girl child education. All this thing that is going on will not happen.

Even around Kano you can see small, small girls. You will see a girl hawking kola nut. If you look at the kola nut, it's not up to 200 naira. Okay, now things are worse.

Maybe 500 kola nut, not everything. If you quantify it, it will not be up to 300 naira. And they will sell the whole day, roaming, selling. And so that is where the problem…

Someone says okay, let me buy all of it in a condition of…. But if you take her off the street, you give her free education. At least primary school up to secondary school.

Give her free education, provide everything. Because one thing we realized, one small survey we did. The mothers are saying they have to prepare them for marriage.

So they have to save money for their marriage bed and so on and so on. So that is one thing. And some people will tell you we don't have the money to take them to school.

Now if government can give free education to these girls, primary school, secondary school at least if a girl reaches secondary school, there is no you will ask her to come and hold goods for you and she'll go and sell it. Because by the time she is in JS1, she's feeling: I've arrived. So. all these things, she wouldn't even do it.

Now look at what girls are doing with Adidita. Some of the Adiditas okay, the tricycle drivers. Yes.

So we've always been saying it and people are beginning to realize that not north only, not Kanu, but particularly we've been talking about Kanu. We're still on a (..) now. You see a small girl. There's that every morning you see me outside with my kid.

5:30Am, you start to see children outside playing. Even small, small girls playing. They don't go to school. They don't go to school. They can't afford nursery. Fine, but what is the community doing?

I said, we cannot wait for government. I said, when you are traveling to the south, once you entered Kogi, inside Kogi, you begin to see community schools. Yeah, you begin to see.

Yes, you begin to see. But I don't think in the north go in Kanu. I don't think I've ever seen. Maybe around seven. Goodbye. Within city for you to see community school.

This is sponsored by the community. I've never seen it. So unless we give priority to girl child education.

And you know, even when we are growing up, if there is in a household, they tend to take the boys to school. And research have shown that previously they tend to take boys to school rather than the girls.

Because even when we are growing up, someone was saying, was telling my dad that he should marry us off. He said, no, no, no, no, no. My children have to go to school. He said, but even if they go to school, they will get married.

He said is the men will also get married. So even in those, those years ago, they don't take female education as anything.

Gaddafi Abubakar

It's like an economic investment. So they try to invest in.

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

Exactly.

Yes. So. So. But honestly, we've missed out. I was talking to one. He's an elderly man, but I called him Yayana. He was a retired permanent secretary.

Whenever you sit with him, he's an intellectual. He will be telling you things. And he was telling me, he said, halima, he said, in the north, we are dead.

He said he remembered when he was building his house. He said he wanted to buy tiles from Lagos. And he cashed cash from bank of the North. When he took it to the bank, they didn't count it.

And I said, why? He said, because they trusted us. Oh yes, in Lagos. He said, now. Yes, he said now, even if it is 5,000, if you give them the account one by one.

Because we have lost out in everything. Our children are not in school. Both the girls and the boys, they are not in school. The elites are cheaters. We like to cheat.

We are corrupt and he didn't say them. He said we. We. Even though he has retired. Yes, exactly. He said we are corrupt. We don't want the truth. We are always covering up.

And you know, there's a lot. And I've been saying it this one also without with no apology. A lot of Hausa people, Northerners are hypocrites, are not sincere to Almighty Allah.

We are not sincere to ourselves. So people like to stay in the cover,bBut they always want to cover with the religion. To say I is Islam. Islam no…

So we need to really come out and stand on our feet. We need to promote the girl charge. We need to see what happened in August 1st. I have never been scared.

Gaddafi Abubakar

The national protest. Yes.

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

I've never been scared in kanu. Going out in kanu, going anywhere in kanu. But seeing that protest honestly have made me to really be scared.

Gaddafi Abubakar

Exactly.

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

Because I have never thought we have those type of young. I've been seeing them during rallies, but not as much as this. From every angle. They are coming out and you see smoke with this long knife.

Is it even knife? What. What do you call it? Cutlers. Say, what is this? So this is the type of children we are rearing.

If they ask you to do family planning, child B space you begin to say is haram that but they produce children. They produce children. And there was a time I was arguing with a religious leader. I also did it in as one of my… my assignment in the US And I got A. He said what is that controversial thing in your country that if you say it, people look at you as you are crazy? Okay. So I gave an example.

We are telling people to do childbar spacing space your children so that you'll be able to train them. Exactly. And people are telling you that our prophet Muhammad may peace and blessing of almighty Allah be upon him. He said, marry and generate.

So I will be proud of you in the hereafter. My argument. He will never be proud of those children. They are drug addicts. Yes. They are thieves, they are bandits, they are terrorists.

He will never be proud of them. Definitely he want good discipline religious young people that you will be proud of. So.

And I said to Malam all this thing you say, you better stop saying it because two years ago that we. We. We found these two boys doing (...). Baby. Yes. Where are you from this who brought you here? They said their dad.

Why that the room they are in. He wanted to marry a second wife. And he doesn't have a room. So his.

So his best option is to vacate them from the room so that he puts his bride and then bring them to the world to look after them.

Gaddafi Abubakar

To become street beggars.

Hajiya Halima Ben Umar

Yes. So some men, as if you… There is this guy that I have my money with him.

I wanted to buy a piece of farm in my village, my dad's village in Debi ringing local government. I didn't have the complete money. So the owner of the farm said just give him as you're giving. Once it is this amount, you can bring it to me.

So I was giving him. Then my dad died. And then you know this because after the three days, you know people will be coming. I needed money, so I asked him to give me money.

He was just doing this. And then before that I realized he used my money to marry a second woman, the third wife.

So this is money that people trusted you, my family, even my dad. Yeah. Said if you give him anything and you ask him honestly, he will not touch, he will not tell anybody, blah blah, blah.

He used my money to marry this third wife. So you can understand how some men think. If they want to marry, whatever means they want, do it.

And they will bring the children into the world that they cannot cater for. Yeah. And we are telling you, space your children space if you do, if you don't have the means, don't marry a second wife.

We know Islam says marry to up to three, up to four. But if it cannot do justice. Yeah, marry one. So why would you marry? There is no one that come to your house and will not want to give birth.

So you are just bringing children into the that you cannot cater for. You bring them and you allow somebody to look after them for you. So the north, we are in deep shit.

Only God Almighty Allah will save us and bring us out of this predicament.

David Ehrhardt

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