Help us become the #1 Data Podcast by leaving a rating & review! We are 67 reviews away!

Former LinkedIn exec explains why mass applying with AI is getting you nowhere. I asked him what works instead.

🧑‍💼 See 60+ recruiters who are hiring data analysts right now 👉 https://findadatajob.com/recruiters

💌 Join 30k+ aspiring data analysts & get my tips in your inbox weekly 👉 https://datacareerjumpstart.com/newsletter

🆘 Feeling stuck in your data journey? Come to my next free "How to Land Your First Data Job" training 👉 https://datacareerjumpstart.com/training

👩‍💻 Want to land a data job in less than 90 days? 👉 https://datacareerjumpstart.com/daa

👔 Ace The Interview with Confidence 👉 https://datacareerjumpstart.com/interviewsimulator

⌚ TIMESTAMPS

00:00 – The AI arms race

04:33 – What are we solving for?

10:57 – Referrals were 10x in 2016

21:12 – Anyone can refer anyone

22:18 – Elevator pitch or questions?

36:36 – Is AI useless in the job search?

42:24 – Quality beats volume

🔗 CONNECT WITH JEREMY

🤝 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/schifeling/

📚 Check out Jeremy's books 👉 https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B00AB7IEX2

🔗 CONNECT WITH AVERY

🎥 YouTube Channel

🤝 LinkedIn

📸 Instagram

🎵 TikTok

💻 Website

Mentioned in this episode:

Build Your Data Portfolio

We will build your data portfolio site for you for $1. All you need to do is go to MyDataFolio.com/build and enter your LinkedIn URL. Wait 30 seconds. And BOOM! You have a portfolio! Try it.

$1 Data Portfolio

📰 Join 18k Other Analysts in My Newsletter

Get 1 weekly newsletter helping you take the next steps in your data career! Check it out: https://datacareerjumpstart.com/subscribe

💌 Subscribe To My Newsletter

You could use Claude CoWork,

you could use GPT Codex.

2

Literally say, "Here's my resume.

3

Go apply to 1,000 jobs.

4

Don't stop till you're done."

5

It'll do it for you.

6

Is that if we're just applying

for random jobs in a completely

7

mechanical way, it's not really 0.01%,

8

it's 0% period.

9

Do you know what the bonus, the top

bonus was at Google when I worked there?

10

$25,000.

11

Oh my gosh.

12

All right, Jeremy.

13

You are a former LinkedIn executive

and an early OpenAI partner who

14

now helps job seekers get hired.

15

Uh, so thank you for joining us today,

and you're gonna talk about how AI

16

has changed the job hunting process.

17

So let's just start with an easy

question: Has AI changed the

18

job hunting process, yes or no?

19

100%, absolutely.

20

Okay.

21

And is that, like, uh, how has it changed?

22

Yeah.

23

And so it's changed on

both sides of the equation.

24

You know, if you're a job seeker,

you have all these tools now.

25

"Build me a resume, ChatGPT.

26

Write me a cover letter, Claude."

27

But it's also changed on the other

side, where recruiters have all these

28

tools to review your applications.

29

And so there's kind of this AI arms

race where both sides are trying to pump

30

up the volume, pump up the rejections.

31

And I think that ultimately that's

left us in a place where both

32

sides are a little frustrated.

33

And hopefully what I can share with your

listeners today is how to get out of

34

this arms race and actually connect with

real humans the way that we used to.

35

When, when we talk about recruiters

using AI and the job seekers using

36

AI, who's winning in that battle?

37

Yeah.

38

I'd say no one, to be honest.

39

Like, so I talk to job

seekers all the time.

40

Whether you're a brand-new grad and you

feel like all the jobs have evaporated or

41

a mid-career changer and you feel like,

"What happened to the Great Resignation?

42

What happened to all the opportunities?"

43

They feel super depressed.

44

But even the recruiters who you

might think have all the power say,

45

"I've never hated my job as much as

I used to because all of a sudden

46

I'm dealing with way more volume.

47

So much of this stuff is fake

because it's AI generated.

48

This is not why I got into recruiting."

49

And so I really do feel like it's

left both sides more miserable.

50

Would, would you say that AI has

made job seeking in the world worse?

51

Absolutely.

52

I mean, in the sense that, like,

I think the best way to think

53

about it is for anyone who's been

using AI, at first glance, you're

54

like, "Wow, this is magical."

55

Let's say you're trying to sort of

build out your data analysis skills,

56

and you're like, "Wow, I don't even

have to really understand the SQL or

57

the Python as much anymore because

I can just have AI bang it out."

58

But then you actually run the code,

and you're like, "Uh-oh, we got

59

some bugs, we got some problems."

60

I think the same thing is happening with

job searching, where it seemed like it

61

was gonna be this panacea, but actually

it's turning more into a nightmare.

62

That's super interesting

that you mention that.

63

Um, do you think, like, that's

a total, uh, summary of AI in

64

per- i- i- as like a totality?

65

It's like it has great promises

to actually do interesting things,

66

and it gets you, like, maybe, like,

66% of the way there, but then

67

it, the last third is missing.

68

And so you either manually have to go

fix the last third, and that takes you

69

maybe just as much as time to, to do the

last third, um, or it just kinda sucks.

70

Is that kinda what you've been seeing?

71

Yeah.

72

You know, there are all those

interesting studies from early, the

73

early days of AI, where programmers

were reporting to the surveyors, "I'm

74

saving at least 20 or 30 hours a week."

75

And then they were actually measuring

the progress the programmers were

76

making towards code completion, and

they were, like, 20 or 30 hours a

77

week slower than they expected to be.

78

And so there really is this disconnect

between the promise and the potential

79

and the actual on-the-ground reality.

80

Yeah.

81

That's super interesting that, that

you mention that because I've been…

82

One thing I…

83

You know, I love AI.

84

I'm super fascinated by AI.

85

One thing I've been trying to do with

AI is for, for example, use AI to edit,

86

you know, the YouTube videos I make.

87

Uh, 'cause, like, theoretically, like,

if you Claude the transcript and the,

88

the timestamps, and then it, there's

all these different libraries that you

89

can use to, you know, render different

HTML and, uh, SVG images and stuff, and,

90

like, you could theoretically, like,

edit your videos with, with Claude.

91

And that's, like…

92

I feel like that's, like, if you go

on, like, YouTube or you go on TikTok

93

or you go on Instagram, especially,

like, in, like, the business AI world,

94

it's like, it's all these promises.

95

Like, these videos of, like,

"This is how I build…

96

I applied to 500 jobs with ChatGPT,"

and you're like, "Wow, that's amazing.

97

I wanna do that."

98

And they show you how to do it, but then

no one really shows you the results.

99

And so you're just- Yes … like,

"Oh, what an amazing promise.

100

I wanna do that."

101

And then you, like, spend all the time

to actually do it, and then there's,

102

like, kinda lackluster results.

103

So you're seeing that as well?

104

Absolutely.

105

'Cause here's the deal.

106

I think the number one thing

that we all need to do in this AI

107

moment is to step back and try to

realize what we're solving for.

108

If our goal in using AI is just to

basically throw more sort of, um,

109

darts at the board, but the board has

now moved, like, 1,000 feet away, just

110

throwing an incremental extra dart is

not gonna actually increase our chances.

111

But if we say, "Hey, the whole

point of getting a job is to

112

connect with a human on the inside.

113

There is a hiring manager out there

who needs my talent to succeed.

114

I gotta find them, and I have to convey

how I can help them direct into that

115

person," well, AI can help with that.

116

AI can help you track that person

down, but it's not by generating

117

1,000 random applications.

118

It's by getting targeted on what

you're actually trying to solve for,

119

which is to find this human in the

universe, understand their needs,

120

and connect with them in a deep and

meaningful way, and that is so different

121

than what you're seeing on TikTok.

122

Okay.

123

I wanna make sure I'm

understanding this correctly.

124

Yes.

125

So I, I think, I think- Uh, for those

of you who, who are listening and

126

maybe haven't figured out how AI…

127

Maybe you haven't even used AI

to do, uh, job applications yet.

128

Um, I think, I think, Jeremy, what you're

kind of talking about when you're saying,

129

like, sending hundreds of resumes, is

there's a bunch of, like, tools out there

130

that will essentially mass apply for you.

131

So, you know, if it took you, let's just

say it took you 10 minutes to apply to

132

a job, now you can apply to, like, let's

just say 100 jobs in 10 minutes using AI.

133

That's kind of what you're

talking about, right?

134

Exactly.

135

I mean, you don't even need

a fancy tool now, right?

136

You could use Claude Cowork.

137

You could use GPT Codex.

138

Literally say, "Here's my resume.

139

Go apply to 1,000 jobs.

140

Don't stop till you're done."

141

It'll do it for you.

142

Wow.

143

Okay.

144

That's super interesting.

145

So, um, but, but you, you bring up a good

point that it's like, what's actually

146

the problem that we're trying to solve?

147

And the thing that you said that

was interesting was we're trying

148

to talk to a hiring manager.

149

Um, and, and is that because

at the end of the day, hiring

150

is still happening by humans?

151

Yes.

152

And there may be a day, I know

that today Stripe announced

153

that the singularity is here.

154

Um, and so maybe that day when AI does all

the hiring and the working is not far off.

155

But as long as humans are still involved

in the hiring and the actual doing of

156

the tasks, it comes back to human nature.

157

Imagine that there is a boss, say,

at Google, hiring for a data analyst.

158

That person is sticking their neck out and

hiring when everyone else is doing layoffs

159

because they have a massive pain point.

160

They have too much to get

done and not enough talent

161

on their team to do it today.

162

And so when they put out a job

description, they are really putting

163

out a cry for help from inside the

Googleplex, saying, "Hey, I need awesome

164

data analysts so I can get my job done,

so I can be successful in the world."

165

But if you just blast them with 1,000

generic applications, that doesn't

166

give them any signals of the fact

that you're committed, dedicated,

167

invested, all the things that we would

be hungry for as the hiring manager.

168

It just says, "Hey, you're wasting

my time, and now I'm on to the next."

169

On the other hand, just to give

you the sort of comparison, imagine

170

that you did a little research.

171

You understood who this person

was, what their challenges were.

172

And again, you can use AI for this.

173

You could put into ChatGPT,

"Here's the job description.

174

What are the three pain

points behind this hire?"

175

And then you reached out and

said, "Hey, this is exactly

176

how I can solve your problems.

177

Here's how I've done in the past.

178

Here's what I can do

for you in the future."

179

That's speaking the human language

of why they're hiring in the first

180

place, not just this AI game of let

me apply for as many jobs as possible.

181

That's the ultimate end goal,

and I want your listeners to keep

182

that north star in their minds.

183

That's really interesting that you mention

that because sometimes it is really hard

184

to remember what, what the end game is.

185

I remember in college, um- I, I don't

know why this was the case, but, uh,

186

when, in my undergrad at University of

Utah, it seemed like the, the STEM career

187

fair always l- overlapped with midterms.

188

It was like always like the same week.

189

And, um I remember there was m- there

was me, and then there was this other

190

girl in, in the program, and I talked

to her, and she was like, "Oh, I

191

gotta study for this, this midterm.

192

I can't go to the career fair."

193

And f- me, I was like, "Well, I'm

only here 'cause I wanna get a job.

194

Like, I don't really care about my grades.

195

I just wanna get a job."

196

Um, and you know, and, and I went

to the career fair, and she didn't.

197

She got an A on the test.

198

I literally got an F, um, but I got a job

from that career fair, and she didn't.

199

Uh, and she struggled.

200

And so I think it's so easy,

for some reason as humans, we

201

like to think that, like, the

intermediate step is the end goal.

202

But you're right, the end goal

is to actually land a job.

203

The applying for the job is just so

we can get in front of a human's eyes.

204

But, but it sounds to me like what

you're saying is it's not the only

205

way to get in front of a human's eyes.

206

So how else can we get in

front of a human's eyes?

207

Yeah, absolutely.

208

So I think at the end of the day, what

we should remember is that we are living

209

at this incredibly opportunistic moment.

210

Like, there was a time probably 20 or

30 years ago where it was still that

211

old boys' club of like, okay, you don't

know that individual hiring manager

212

inside Google, therefore you are not

sort of eligible for this opportunity.

213

But now that we're living in this age

of LinkedIn plus AI, what's to stop you

214

as a University of Utah student or a

community college student or someone who

215

never even went to college at all from,

like, literally going on LinkedIn and

216

say, "I don't know that hiring manager at

Google, but I know someone who knows him.

217

Could I ask for an introduction?"

218

And I think if you think about what

AI is doing to all these digital

219

documents, whether it's your resume,

your cover letter, your LinkedIn

220

profile, it's destroying the trust

and the differentiating power of

221

those signals because everyone's

resume and cover letter and LinkedIn

222

profile can look amazing right now.

223

But if you have the trust of someone

who that person knows and has a

224

relationship with, that is so much more

powerful, so much more differentiating

225

than another mass-produced application

like everyone else out there.

226

That's how you stand out even if

you're not part of the, quote-unquote,

227

"old b- old boys' network."

228

Okay, so it's about…

229

sounds like it's about trust, um, gaining

these, these people's trust on the inside.

230

Um, okay, so one of the examples

you gave was like, oh, maybe I don't

231

know the hiring manager, but I know

someone who knows the hiring manager.

232

What are some other ways that we can

gain these magical human beings' trusts?

233

Yeah, absolutely.

234

So I think a lot of it is through

relationships, and so one of the really

235

fascinating things is if you had to

guess, Avery, what do you think was

236

the power of a referral back in 2016,

10 years ago, to give you an edge

237

compared to online job applicants?

238

So imagine someone applies

to a job at Adobe online,

239

someone else gets a referral.

240

How much likelier is the

referred candidate to be hired?

241

Uh, I mean, I would say a lot more likely.

242

I would say, like- Five times more likely?

243

Turns out it was 10X.

244

Wow.

245

1,000% boost, which is crazy for

like a coffee chat with someone.

246

Yeah.

247

Now that's 2016.

248

If you fast-forward to today,

249

advantage of a referred candidate

over an online applicant?

250

Well, I would say that since it's

gotten so much easier to apply for

251

jobs, you have a lot more applicants.

252

So just by, just like by default,

I would say it has to be way more.

253

So I, I mean, I, I would

probably say more than double.

254

I would guess more than 20 times.

255

Yeah, so it's 20X today.

256

Yeah.

257

Which just gives you a sense of like, wow.

258

Like, remember what we're talking about.

259

This is not a game.

260

This is not a game show.

261

This is your life.

262

Mm.

263

If you could get a 20X advantage

on an opportunity that changes the

264

course of your career and maybe your

life, why wouldn't you go for that?

265

So that goes back to your question,

which is how do you get that advantage?

266

Yeah, maybe you know someone who

knows someone, or maybe you went to

267

the same school, maybe you volunteer

with the same organizations.

268

If you literally went on LinkedIn today

and said every Googler who volunteers

269

with Habitat For Humanity, you would

find over 1,000 Googlers who spend

270

their time on that kind of thing.

271

That is reason for you to reach out and

say, "Hey, we've got this in common.

272

Could I learn whether your time at

Google feels consistent with your values?

273

I want to compare apples to apples."

274

And I think the reality is we stop

having to put ourselves in this sort

275

of easy button mentality of let me

just press a button in ChatGPT and

276

get the job, and let me instead build

a real connection with a real person.

277

Okay.

278

I have, uh…

279

I agree with you, and I have

two, two follow-up points.

280

One- Yeah … um, you're 100%

right, like, with the alumni

281

or with, like, a nonprofit.

282

Like, when I get, you know, with having,

like, 150,000 LinkedIn followers, I, I

283

get a decent amount of messages inbound,

and, uh, I try to respond to as many as

284

I can, but obviously it's an overload.

285

Uh, it's an overbearing amount

of, of work sometimes, so I

286

don't reply to every single one.

287

But if you went to my alma mater,

I'm very likely to respond.

288

And it has nothing…

289

I don't know you better.

290

It's just like, oh, you and I lived at

the same place for a little while and

291

we cheered for the same football team,

and I, for some reason, there's, like,

292

school spirit in the United States,

and I wanna, I wanna help this person.

293

Um, so that's awesome.

294

I agree with that.

295

And two, yeah, like, nonprofit's a

really good one, or interests like,

296

um, like, like for instance, uh, you

know, I have my church on my LinkedIn.

297

If you're from the same church

as me, I- Yep … I'm probably

298

more likely to respond.

299

Uh, just little human connections like

that can, can make a big difference.

300

Um, I wanna go to, okay, so, like, we can

do this, but why aren't people doing it?

301

You, you mentioned- Yeah … that, like,

it just feels easier to press a button.

302

Is that the number one

primary reason why you think?

303

Like, even though I know this action is

20 times more likely to land a result,

304

I wanna still press this button even

though I know it's not the right choice?

305

Yeah.

306

So I don't know that people are thinking

about it quite that rationally, but

307

I think when you're in this moment of

like, oh, I need a job, the single best

308

sort of, like, quick dopamine hit is

that spin of the roulette wheel, right?

309

Yeah.

310

Apply.

311

Apply.

312

Apply.

313

Hey, at least I'm making progress.

314

At least I'm putting

stuff out into the world.

315

Versus what I'm talking about

is a much slower game, right?

316

You've gotta find the person, you've gotta

find the mutual connection, you've gotta

317

ask for the info, you gotta have a chat.

318

None of this is instant gratification.

319

And one thing we've learned about our

320

to want that quick dopamine hit

versus that long-term thinking.

321

So even though every single person

knows that referrals matter, very

322

few get them for that exact reason.

323

Do, do you think people also are just

like, they just like shrug off the

324

idea of networking 'cause they're

like, "Oh, I don't know the hiring

325

manager at Google, I'm a nobody."

326

Yeah.

327

And so they're just like, "There's

no point in trying 'cause I…

328

Who am I?

329

I live in this little, you know, podunk

area and I only know podunk people, and

330

I, you know, I come from this family,

we've never been to college, we don't…"

331

Like, I don't know.

332

Do you think people get like in

their heads about it that way?

333

Yeah.

334

Yeah.

335

So I try not to psychoanalyze the

students that I work with, but I think

336

that there's a lot of imposter syndrome.

337

Yeah.

338

A lot of sense of like, "I'm

not worthy of a referral."

339

Mm.

340

"Someone else should get that opportunity

because they deserve it more."

341

And I think the reality is, and I

think this is what you teach, you know,

342

through, um, Data Career Jumpstart,

is anyone out there could add

343

tremendous value to an organization.

344

If you've put in the time, if you've

built the skills, there is that hiring

345

manager who has that cry for help, but

you have to believe in yourself first and

346

foremost before they can believe in you.

347

Mm.

348

And I know that's easy for me to say,

harder to do, but I do think that

349

is an internal barrier that a lot of

folks face Yeah, the imposter syndrome

350

is, is really hard to get over.

351

That's, uh, something we all have to face.

352

I, I think…

353

A- and, and I was being a little

trivial earlier that, you know,

354

from being from, uh, you know, maybe

a middle-of-nowhere area, but…

355

And maybe you don't know

anyone, but I think there's

356

opportunities to know someone.

357

So for, just for example- Yes … um,

you know, once upon a time, I, I

358

post every day on LinkedIn, and this

guy literally commented on my posts,

359

like, every day for six months.

360

And I'm like, "Who the heck is this guy?"

361

And so finally I reached out to him

and I was like, "Hey, who are you?

362

W- why you keep commenting on my posts?"

363

And we got on a call, and I ended up

hiring this guy, and it's like this

364

guy is from, literally from Africa.

365

Like, he literally…

366

Him and I couldn't be further

apart almost in the entire world.

367

Um, but, you know, through the power

of LinkedIn, just from adding value

368

and networking, y- you know, that, that

really gave him a good opportunity to,

369

to work remotely in the United States.

370

But I think the problem is, is he

had to do that, what, 89 times in a

371

row without any benefit basically.

372

How, how do you overcome, like, when

networking feels pointless, when

373

you're like, "I'm planting all these

seeds and I'm getting no plants"?

374

Yeah, I love that story.

375

But again, that's the hardest case

scenario, where he had absolutely nothing

376

in common with you- That's it … maybe

except for shared interests, and so he

377

had to win you over one post at a time.

378

I wanna go back to what you

mentioned about, um, being a member

379

of the Utes, being a member of

LDS, whatever the connection is.

380

There's this concept in human

psychology called generativity.

381

You can look it up on Google.

382

And it basically says that we as a species

are hardwired to actually wanna pay it

383

forward to the next generation, both

because someone likely helped us back

384

when we were starting out, and because

there may be this evolutionary sort of

385

bias towards you wanna see people in

that same tribe, that same walk of life

386

also be successful And so I think the

change of mindset for folks is less of,

387

"Oh, I have to believe in myself 100%,"

but to understand that I'm actually

388

giving a gift to the other person.

389

You might feel like, "Oh,

I'm wasting their time.

390

They're super senior,

they're super successful.

391

What could I possibly offer them?"

392

But that sense of being generative, that

as an old guy, I get a chance to feel

393

like I'm leaving value in the world, I'm

creating a legacy in the world, that is

394

massively powerful for me, and if you

give me that gift as a younger person,

395

I'm gonna wanna go to bat for you as well.

396

So don't forget that you're giving

that gift as well as receiving it.

397

Important perspective.

398

Yeah.

399

Once again, just trying to go through and,

and, and see if I felt this in my career.

400

When I, when I worked for ExxonMobil,

I was one of three, uh, alumni from

401

the University of Utah that worked

for- Wow … a 70,000-person company.

402

Uh, maybe it was, like, five actually.

403

Um, but one in three on

a 10,000-person campus.

404

And yeah, I would've

done, I would've gone…

405

I, I really wanted more Utes and

more Utah people at ExxonMobil.

406

Yes.

407

I would've totally, uh, tried

to help people that, you know,

408

that, that needed the help.

409

So that, that, that rings true.

410

Um, also, th- we should also point

out that sometimes, not always, but

411

sometimes, there's also financial

incentives for these people within

412

the company that if they refer someone

who gets hired, they get, like, a

413

bonus of $500 or $1,000 or whatever.

414

Um, so maybe- Yeah.

415

Let me, let me just stop

you right there, Avery.

416

Yeah.

417

Do you know what the bonus, the top

bonus was at Google when I worked there?

418

No.

419

If you referred someone with,

like, very specialized skills?

420

No.

421

$25,000 Oh my gosh.

422

And then you think about it

from the employer's standpoint.

423

Data shows that referred candidates

are likelier to accept the job offer

424

because they've got that friend

on the inside, likelier to stay

425

longer, and then actually likelier

to outperform non-referred candidates

426

because they've been hand-selected.

427

The reality is it's a bargain

for an employer to pay that bonus

428

to automatically have access to

the best talent in the world.

429

So again, lots of gifts going on here.

430

It's not just purely all one,

you know, um, zero-sum thinking.

431

That's, that's actually interesting

that you bring that up because, um, I

432

run a job board where I post data jobs

and, um, I had, uh, an ex-colleague

433

reach out to me who's at a different

company now, and she said, "Hey, my

434

company's hiring someone in data.

435

Do you have any recommendations?"

436

And so I kind of asked the people that

I kind of know that are, that are in

437

the market, uh, for, for a job, and

this was a more senior role, so not

438

necessarily like a, like a, a good fit

for a lot of my boot camp students.

439

Um, it was like a senior data

scientist, machine learning role.

440

Um, and so I asked kind of some of my, my

friends that I know are in the job market.

441

No one was super interested.

442

So I replied, "Hey, sorry,

I don't know anyone.

443

But if you'd like, I'll post it on my job

board for free, and we- we can promote it

444

for free just 'cause I wanna kind of get

that, that side of the job board going."

445

And she said, "No, thank you.

446

We're only looking for referred,

re- re- referred candidates."

447

Oh.

448

And I was like, wow.

449

They're-- They don't even

want the application mess.

450

They only want people who were referred,

and I think it's for the reasons you

451

mentioned earlier, that a referred

candidate is more likely to stay, an

452

easier hire, like, better performer.

453

It just works out better for them, so it's

really interesting that you mention that.

454

Is, is that true?

455

Have you seen that, like, at other

companies as well, other than Google?

456

Yeah.

457

It's so funny.

458

I hear that all the time actually.

459

I'm always off- offering to post

stuff 'cause I have, you know,

460

all this LinkedIn stuff going on.

461

People say, "No, that's more work for me."

462

"That's more strangers in my queue.

463

I want less work and more trust,

not the other way around."

464

Okay.

465

Uh, referred candidates, guys.

466

It's important.

467

Try to get referred.

468

Yes.

469

So what can people kind

of do to get referred?

470

So we mentioned, you know,

we're trying to connect with,

471

with hiring managers if we can.

472

If we can't, maybe connections

of hiring managers.

473

And we're sending them LinkedIn messages?

474

What type of…

475

Like, how are we contacting

them, would you say?

476

Yeah.

477

Absolutely.

478

So first of all, if you find someone

inside an organization, obviously the

479

closer they are to the hiring team,

the more leverage they're gonna have.

480

But if you…

481

You know, when I worked at Google, I

would refer people for jobs in India, for

482

legal team jobs when I was a marketer.

483

And so anyone can refer anyone.

484

That's the first thing to know.

485

Just gotta find someone on the inside.

486

One ute inside ExxonMobil.

487

Then when you wanna get in touch with that

person in the first place, don't send them

488

a cold outreach on LinkedIn, 'cause most

people are not that active on the site.

489

Um, basically it could sit there in their

LinkedIn inbox forever Don't send them a

490

cold email because everyone's inboxes are

exploding and they don't know your name.

491

Instead, wherever possible, find that

mutual connection on LinkedIn, that

492

warm intro opportunity where, say, Avery

introduces you to Jeremy, and now you're

493

coming with that nice halo effect.

494

Okay, so that's the dream scenario.

495

You've been introduced to an insider.

496

You've got something in common.

497

Now what's the game plan?

498

I'm gonna pitch it to you, Avery.

499

You have two choices.

500

All right.

501

This is like choose your

own adventure style.

502

I'm ready.

503

Do you, do you give this insider

an elevator pitch telling them

504

how awesome you are, or do you ask

them questions about themselves?

505

Oh, yeah.

506

That's a good question.

507

Okay.

508

I, I would probably say, you know,

everyone likes to talk about themselves,

509

so that's probably the better path.

510

I'd be tempted to talk about

myself 'cause I love talking

511

about myself, but, uh- Oh, me too.

512

And everyone does, right?

513

Yeah.

514

Sure.

515

But the reality is, even though

business school-- Like, when I was an

516

MBA student, they were like, "Gotta

have your elevator pitch ready," you

517

know, this mythical elevator ride

when you're gonna sell yourself.

518

The reality is no one wants to be sold to.

519

No one wants to get a, you know,

call during dinner offering

520

them a new cell phone plan.

521

Don't be that guy.

522

Instead, bring it back to the human stuff.

523

Like, "Hey, what…

524

How did you go from, um,

University of Utah to ExxonMobil?

525

What surprised you along the way?

526

What do you wish you had known

when you were starting over?"

527

That's catnip to any alum out there.

528

And then make sure that when you

close that call, you don't just

529

say, "Hey, have a great life.

530

Thanks for, thanks for the chat."

531

You keep the conversation going.

532

So I'm gonna share my, my golden

question with all of your listeners.

533

I want you to have the confidence to

say, "Hey, Avery, this has been awesome.

534

If I could ask you one last question, if

you were back at the University of Utah

535

today trying to break into ExxonMobil

all over again, knowing what you know,

536

what would you be doing- Mm … to get

the best shot, um, at this organization?"

537

And why do you think that works so well,

Avery, based on everything we discussed?

538

Uh, I mean, people, people love to

be-- Like, people love to talk about

539

themselves, and then also people love

to, to give advice, um, and say, you

540

know, help the younger generation.

541

And I think, I think a lot of the

times when you, when you ask for

542

advice, you actually kind of end up

getting a referral, 'cause they're

543

like, "Oh, this is what I would do,

and maybe I'll help you along the way."

544

Yes.

545

I cannot tell you the number of times

just by throwing that out there,

546

they said, "Look, I got referred.

547

My whole team got referred.

548

You gotta get a referral.

549

Oh, by the way, we're hiring right now."

550

Yeah.

551

"I get a five thousand

dollar referral bonus.

552

Send me your resume."

553

Yeah.

554

So bottom line, like, I know it's

almost like Inception style, but,

555

like, give them a chance to lead and

play that mentor role versus, like,

556

transactionally, like, "Give me a referral

just because I went to your alma mater."

557

Yeah.

558

We had a, another recruiter on the

channel, uh, one time kinda talking

559

about networking, and one thing they said

is if you ask for, uh, a referral, you

560

end up with advice, and if you end up

for advice, you end up with a referral.

561

Um, so it's good to hear it coming

from, you know, some-someone like you.

562

Okay, so we can do these, like, we can

get these, like, warm introductions

563

from mutual connections and then, you

know, ask for-- be interested in them

564

and then ask for advice ultimately,

and that can lead to, to good things.

565

Is there anything else that we can

be doing to, to fight this good fight

566

against, you know, the applicant tracking

system and the AI slop and the AI volume

567

that's basically making it impossible

for us, you know, to actually have our

568

resumes be seen by a hiring manager?

569

Yeah.

570

Couple things.

571

So first of all, know that there

are two kinds of referrals.

572

The sort of basic one that everyone's

familiar with is someone goes inside

573

an applicant tracking system, this

is the big sort of like applicant

574

database that every company has,

and they basically check a box.

575

So you say, "Avery, um, I recommend you

for this data analyst role at ExxonMobil."

576

Um, and that's nice.

577

You know, the recruiter will see

it, the hiring manager could see it,

578

but it's still just one little box.

579

The ideal, and this is where it's helpful

to sort of steer that alum or that insider

580

a little bit, is don't just check a box.

581

Like, go directly to the recruiter.

582

Go directly to the hiring manager,

ideally if you know them well,

583

and, like, make that case, because

that is way more persuasive than,

584

oh, there's a little extra bonus

point attached to this profile.

585

So that's the first thing to know, is

there are two flavors of referrals.

586

One is very robotic, one is more human.

587

The latter's more powerful.

588

And then number two, don't be

afraid, as we talked about, to go

589

directly to the hiring manager.

590

Like, if you think about what the

recruiter's job is, their job is not

591

to find the best talent in the world.

592

Their job is to put a warm body in

that seat as fast as possible so

593

they can move on to the 39 other

roles that they have to fill.

594

Versus the hiring manager is the one

person in the organization who actually

595

has the incentive to find the best

person- Mm … because it's their butt

596

on the line, their career that's gonna

be yoked to yours for the rest of time.

597

So that's why if you can actually build

a connection with them versus just the

598

recruiter, there's a lot more alignment

between what you want and what they want.

599

This, this is so interesting that you

bring, you bring this up because, um

600

You know, once again, just going back

to job boards for, for- Yeah … Uh,

601

and maybe, maybe this is the sign

that it's time to change job boards.

602

Because, you know, for as long as I've

been an adult, job boards have been

603

what they are, a list, a directory

of opening job positions that us,

604

the applicants, can apply for.

605

It goes to someone for review,

they interview us, we get hired.

606

But it's…

607

And, and people spend, you know, hours

scrolling through these job boards and

608

looking and applying for all these jobs.

609

But what we're saying, what you're

saying, if I'm understanding correctly,

610

is that's not super effective.

611

The more effective thing is

to do this referral thing.

612

So, like, why, why don't you

think that there's more, like,

613

software oriented towards this?

614

Like, why aren't there, like, job

boards that only show the, like,

615

hiring managers and recruit- Like,

why is the process it is what it is?

616

All right, this is Avery

coming to you from the future.

617

I was ending this video and, uh,

I asked this question because I've

618

been thinking about this previously.

619

Like, why isn't there more, like,

directories of just recruiters and

620

hiring managers of people who want

to hire data analysts, who are, like,

621

literally looking for someone right now?

622

And so I actually built

it on finddatajob.com,

623

and I wanted to talk to Jeremy

about that, but I got distracted.

624

I never had the chance to tell

Jeremy that I actually built it.

625

Um, and so I want to tell you now.

626

That's why Avery from the future

is here interrupting this episode

627

to tell you that it's built.

628

So let me show you.

629

So, um, if you go to finddatajob.com,

630

at the top up here, you'll basically

have something that says recruiters.

631

If you're listening audio only,

don't worry, you should be able

632

to do this on your own on your

computer or, or later, whatever.

633

So you click on recruiters, and

then bam, right here is a list of

634

55 recruiters and hiring managers

that are literally hiring right now.

635

And so you can scroll through these,

you know, get their name, their

636

title, their company, uh, where

they got their degree, and then of

637

course their, uh, LinkedIn profile.

638

Um, and there it is,

that purple hiring sign.

639

So you can literally reach out to

these people, you know, send them

640

a cold message, send them an email,

um, and you know, give them your

641

elevator pitch, or maybe better

not give them the elevator pitch.

642

Give them…

643

Ask for advice, right?

644

'Cause we're, we're learning that when

we ask for advice or we connect with

645

them emotionally and humanly first, we

actually get more results in the end.

646

And, uh, this is actually part of

Premium Data Jobs, um, which is the

647

premium version of finddatajob.com.

648

So on, on Premium Data Jobs we've always

had these premium jobs right here.

649

We have 121 right now posted.

650

And these jobs, for instance,

like let's just do this entry

651

level data analyst role at Aflac.

652

This was posted a day ago and, uh,

has a pretty l- uh, friendly score.

653

You got three out of 10, uh, on

our, uh, guess on how senior it is.

654

Um, it does require a decent

amount of skills here.

655

But anyways, if you click on contact

hiring team, that's literally gonna take

656

you to a LinkedIn post where, you know,

some sort of person said they were hiring.

657

In this case, uh, looks like this

post got pretty popular, 231.

658

Um, but typically we try to find jobs

that don't have very many comments

659

on them, so you can leave like a

really mean- meaningful comment.

660

And I mean, like, you can definitely

outdo a lot of these comments here

661

and send a little bit better of a cold

message, um, than these people have.

662

And you can also, of course, you know,

click on this person's profile and send

663

them a cold message, uh, here on LinkedIn.

664

So if you're kind of enjoying this

type of style of job hunting, um, then

665

you need to check out findadatjob.com

666

because we're doing good things.

667

All right, back to the episode.

668

Jeremy, you know, why aren't

there more recruiter directories

669

like the one on findadatjob.com?

670

Yeah.

671

I think the fundamental, uh,

problem is Economics 101, right?

672

Think about what we know about

how marketplaces work, where as

673

soon as someone increases the

price, it drives down demand.

674

As someone is-- As soon as someone

increases the supply, it drives down

675

the price, et cetera, et cetera.

676

There's a equal and opposite reaction.

677

Well, from the minute that monster.com

678

turned on in 1995 or whenever it launched

and the first online job board was

679

born, all of a sudden the amount of

applicants just completely exploded.

680

And so then it went from

let's have monster.com

681

to linkedin.com.

682

Maybe recruiters can go

out there and find people.

683

Well, now LinkedIn has one

point three billion profiles.

684

And so as a result, every signal kind

of gets ruined or maxed out by that

685

perfect competition over time, which

is why I think we're coming back

686

to some of these natural signals.

687

When you are reaching out to me as

the hiring manager or reaching out to

688

me as a referrer, it's not just about

the actual conversation, it's about

689

what that conversation says about you.

690

Mm.

691

Out of 1,000 people who wanted

this job, you were the only

692

one who had the cleverness, the

guts, the drive to actually reach

693

out and do something different.

694

If I want the one data analyst who's

gonna think differently about this role

695

versus being a cog in the machine, you've

just walked the talk when everyone else

696

has only talked it Such a good point.

697

Um, we just, uh, posted a role that

we're hiring, uh, a salesperson to

698

do some of our sales calls for our

boot camp, and we wanted to hire

699

internally from our boot camp, so I

posted it in our boot camp community.

700

I think we had 10 people interested.

701

Um, and I said, you know, "Comment 'me'

if you're interested on this page."

702

So 10 people commented me.

703

You know, out of those 10 people,

great, I like all 10 of them.

704

They're good candidates.

705

One of them sent me an email,

"Hey, I know, like, you haven't

706

told me how to apply yet.

707

You haven't given me any other

instructions, but I just wanna t- I

708

already wanna tell you about myself

and why I'm a good fit for this role."

709

And if, if nothing else, like, h-

his name's at the top of my mind now

710

'cause it's like he's the only one

that stood out out of those 10 names.

711

Um, and literally, in this case, you know,

maybe they were waiting for instructions,

712

but all of them had my email.

713

All of them had the chance to do it.

714

Um, but yeah.

715

It's just like, that's just…

716

You're right.

717

That doesn't even matter what he

said, it's just the fact that he

718

took initiative and said something.

719

That actually says maybe more

than any message could say.

720

Yeah.

721

I think that's the important thing

here is like I know when people think

722

about this stuff at a theoretical

level, they get exhausted, right?

723

No one likes job searching.

724

It's ego destructive.

725

It wears you down in all

these different ways.

726

And yet if you sort of like

pull out all the feelings, all

727

the emotion from it, we're not

talking about massive investments

728

of time or energy or creativity.

729

Just the little spark compared

to the average person is

730

enough to put you out there.

731

So hopefully, we can lower the temperature

on that and say, "Hey, how do you step

732

one step further than everyone else?"

733

And man, Jeremy, you're firing me

up here 'cause now, now I'm excited.

734

Now I'm, now I'm like- … how

do we tell people this?

735

How do we, how do we make it more fun?

736

Because I think that's what it is.

737

I think it's like going back to the

dopamine earlier, like if I have

738

Claude CoWork go out there and apply

for 100 jobs for me, that feels good.

739

That feels like I did something today.

740

I did something cool.

741

I did something neat.

742

And if I went out there and I sent,

you know, let, let's even say 10

743

cold messages, you know, to…

744

I mean, we'll call them warm messages,

'cause maybe we're messaging people

745

we're already connected with.

746

Let's just say none of them reply.

747

Like, that doesn't feel good.

748

But, but the…

749

And I, let's say I spent the same

amount of time on each- The networking

750

one, even though it doesn't feel

good, is actually valued more,

751

but it, but it doesn't feel good.

752

So how do we convince people to do that?

753

I don't know.

754

Yeah.

755

I mean, how do we change

our species, right?

756

Like, how do we go from a species that's

like, "We're gonna live today and burn

757

down this planet if we have to," to like,

"We're gonna build a sustainable society

758

that lasts forever because we're thinking,

like, 10 generations into the future"?

759

And I don't know the answer to that,

but I do know that here's another

760

psychological concept I really like.

761

It's this idea of locus of control.

762

Have you heard of it?

763

Uh, I've heard of it, but

I don't know what it is.

764

Okay.

765

So basically, external locus of

control is how most people operate.

766

You look around at the headlines, 'cause

we're so saturated them, in them today,

767

and you're like, "The job market sucks.

768

AI's taking all the jobs.

769

You know, geopolitics is crazy," whatever,

and you're like, "Oh, I'm screwed."

770

Especially if you're Gen

Z, you're doubly screwed.

771

And you're like, "Okay, now I'm stuck.

772

I can't do anything about that."

773

But then there's a handful of people when

times get tough, whether it's the Great

774

Depression or the Great Recession or

even this moment, who are like, "I can't

775

control any of that stuff that's swirling

around, but I can send that email today.

776

I can reach out to that person today."

777

And if you can just sort of focus on,

here is the one little thing that I

778

can control in my life to take control

of my destiny in a way that no one

779

else is doing, then I think that

you focused on the most realizable,

780

most magical part of our ability as

humans, which is we do have free will.

781

We do have the ability to make

these choices, and that's the choice

782

that I want your listeners to take.

783

Yeah.

784

That's, that's a, that's a hard

thing where it's like, okay, we

785

can't control the results, but I

can control the actions I take.

786

And so instead of measuring, you

know, the results, my new result is

787

just going to be how many efforts,

how many actions I put in today.

788

Uh, and I just trust that the results

will take care of themself if I stay

789

consistent in taking these actions.

790

And I, I guess I would just tack on that

if you don't trust, you know, the, the

791

stat that Jerry brought up earlier about,

you know, you're 20 times more likely to

792

land a job- Yeah, yeah … when referred.

793

Let's say you don't trust it.

794

Let's say you don't trust me.

795

Maybe you can just, like, instead

of just applying to 100 jobs, maybe

796

you just apply to 80, and then

you send two, you know, messages.

797

Like, maybe it's not like-

Yes … you just send 10 messages

798

and you don't apply to any jobs.

799

Like, maybe you can

gradually work your way in.

800

Does that, does that kind

of sound fair to you?

801

I love that.

802

It's kind of like a

balanced portfolio, right?

803

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

804

Spread them around.

805

Okay.

806

So we've talked about, like, how AI

basically is flooding the applicant

807

tracking systems, how everyone has the

same looking, the same sounding resumes

808

'cause they're all using ChatGPT that's

trained on all the same data to write

809

the same bullet points, and we're

not making fun of hiring managers.

810

So we can kind of like network

our way in essentially and try

811

to get these, these referrals.

812

Um, is there anything

that, like, AI is good for?

813

Like, is AI useless in the job search?

814

Yes.

815

Well, let's just start

at the very beginning.

816

I find that a lot of folks, and I

understand it if you're unemployed

817

right now, and you're like, "I need a

job yesterday," you don't have time to

818

fool around with career exploration and

finding your path and all that good stuff.

819

But even if you're time-pressed, I think

everyone now using AI could do a very

820

simple exercise to make sure they're

actually aiming in the right direction.

821

Like, how frustrating would it be to spend

all this time applying and networking

822

just to land a job that you hate?

823

Mm.

824

And if you want to prevent

that, this is where AI comes in.

825

You can go to AI and lim- simply say,

"Hey, I want you to take everything

826

that you know about me in terms of my

strengths, everything that you know

827

about me in terms of my passions, and

I want you to figure out the 10 job

828

titles that are a perfect fit for who

I am and what the world needs from me."

829

This is a Japanese concept called ikigai.

830

And because AI's trained on every job

that's ever existed, not just consulting,

831

not just data analytics, it can say,

"Hey, you might think that you should

832

be a data scientist, but actually,

maybe you should be doing BI in the

833

healthcare space because that would be

a way better fit for all these reasons."

834

And I think if people spent even 10

minutes at that initial step before they

835

started applying willy-nilly, not only are

they gonna get better results in terms of

836

the applications 'cause they are a better

fit, but they're gonna be way happier

837

down the road, which is the whole point of

applying for the job in the first place.

838

Mm.

839

Okay.

840

So AI can help us, you know, try

to figure out what ac- what job

841

we actually are interested in.

842

Um- Mm-hmm … what about,

like, what about, like, cover

843

letters or- Uh, resume bullets.

844

What do you think about those?

845

Yeah, for sure.

846

So just to be clear, I'm not

saying throw the baby out with the

847

bathwater, but the reality is, is

that AI is sort of this thin red line

848

that you have to be careful about.

849

So if you went to ChatGPT or Claude

or Perplexity or whatever and said,

850

"Here's the job description that

I want, here's my current resume.

851

Which important keywords am I missing?"

852

It'll be really good

at that level analysis.

853

That's essentially what an ATS does.

854

However, where people cross that red line

is they say, "Great, now give me credit

855

for all of those skills in my experience

bullet points so I can apply immediately."

856

And then someday they're sitting

in front of their future boss, and

857

the boss says, "Hey, tell me about

this amazing thing that you did."

858

And the only problem is they never did

it- Mm … because AI hallucinated it.

859

So again, I think it's totally fine to

use AI for the research and the analysis,

860

but if AI is telling our story without

our input, now we've got a big problem.

861

Mm.

862

Okay.

863

Um, and what about, like,

in the education space?

864

'Cause y- you worked in the

education space with AI.

865

Do you feel like AI makes a good tutor?

866

When, when does it do good things,

and when does it do bad things?

867

Yeah, and again, it's one of these

things where we have to kind of like

868

bind ourselves to the mast, Odysseus

style, uh, to quote, um, someone who's

869

in the theaters these days, where

basically we say, if we're gonna use

870

AI to learn or to develop skills, we

gotta give it very clear instructions.

871

We gotta say, "Hey, don't

just give me the answer.

872

Don't just rush to the output.

873

Help me walk through the process."

874

And a lot of the tools have

these study modes built in.

875

Gemini's got it.

876

Uh, GPT's got it.

877

I think Claude may have it now, where

basically we'll never give you the answer.

878

It'll just keep coming back to you

with questions, Socratic style.

879

But again, I think we have to resist that

temptation of the easy button, the instant

880

gratification- Mm … if we really wanna

have a true tutorial-type experience.

881

I, I mean, it goes back to what we

were talking about earlier in the

882

episode, where it's like AI's decent

at like 66% of what task you give it.

883

Um, and also depending on the prompt

and the data you give it as well,

884

like those things can increase.

885

Yeah, it's, it's really hard.

886

I'm in a weird place with AI where

it's like, oh, no matter what I

887

have you do, you do an okay job.

888

And, and oftentimes that's like

a great starting place where it's

889

like, okay, I'll take over manually,

and I didn't have to do like the

890

first half of this project, great.

891

Um, and other times it's like, man,

I spent so much time writing this

892

prompt and giving all this data,

and you just kinda sucked at this,

893

that I've spent all this time.

894

You know, I'm not getting any

results from what you're telling me.

895

It's like I sh- should've probably

just done this on my own or

896

with a human, uh, a human there.

897

And I, I guess that's kind of what

you're saying is like- Yeah … AI can

898

be useful, but also like keep humans

in the loop and just know it can

899

make mistakes, it can l- hallucinate.

900

So take a hybrid approach where it's like

helping you along the path, but maybe

901

not, you're not riding it as the vehicle.

902

Yes.

903

I'm gonna give you a little analogy here.

904

Um, I think that in some ways AI reminds

me a little bit of a British accent.

905

I don't know if you're like me, A-

Avery, as a typical American, but

906

when I hear someone t- speak to me in

a posh British accent, I immediately

907

give them like 20 extra IQ points.

908

Yeah.

909

Wow, they're so brilliant.

910

Yes.

911

And in fact, when you stop and actually

like think about what they just said,

912

you're like, "No, that's totally

dumb," but it just sounded so good.

913

I think AI's the same, right?

914

Because it writes in correct sentences,

because it can be opinionated

915

sometimes, you're like, "I'm not

talking to an intern, I'm talking

916

to, you know, a boss, a CEO here."

917

But it makes those intern-level

mistakes even with that posh accent.

918

Love that analogy.

919

Stealing that analogy.

920

100% agree.

921

I … Anyone who has a British accent,

I trust them- … 20% more, like

922

20% smarter, like- It's some weird,

like, colonial holdover, right?

923

We're like totally in thrall.

924

That, that's so funny.

925

And it's funny 'cause I lived, I lived

in Europe for, for over two years.

926

Ah.

927

And, uh, they love American accents

'cause they learn British English in

928

school, and they're always like, "Oh,

you sound like you're from the movies."

929

So it's just so funny.

930

They like American accents, we

like British accents, I guess.

931

Um- Grass is greener.

932

Yes.

933

Okay.

934

That's amazing.

935

Um, okay, Jeremy, riddle me this.

936

You know, we talked about networking,

but outside of networking, if you

937

were to talk to a job seeker right

now in this AI-flooded world with

938

all these different applicants, what

is the one piece of advice you'd

939

give them on how they could land a

job quicker than they are right now?

940

Yeah, absolutely.

941

I think the number one thing

is that you have to be focused.

942

Um, again, I know that there's this

mythical math equation that's running

943

in the back of our minds where we

say, "Yeah, we know that our chance

944

of landing any job online is like .01%

945

these days, but if we just apply to 1,000

jobs, we'll get that one job, right?"

946

I think what we don't appreciate

is that if we're just applying

947

for random jobs in a completely

mechanical way, it's not really .01%,

948

it's 0% period.

949

Because again, especially in a labor

market as tough as this one, companies

950

are always gonna have their pick

of really qualified driven people.

951

And so you're fooling yourself if

you believe, "I just need to have

952

enough lottery ticks and I'll--

tickets and I'll win the lottery."

953

And so my number one rule is, hey, play

fewer games, get into fewer of these

954

application matches, but have a winning

rate of 1% or even 10%, and now the

955

quality piece is gonna carry you so much

further than the quantity piece ever did.

956

And again, I know that's hard

'cause it takes time, it takes

957

a little self-reflection, but

that's the overarching rule.

958

It's fundamental mathematics

at the end of the day.

959

And so even if you hate relationships,

if you're an introvert the, like

960

way that I am, think about it like,

"Hey, I just need to give myself

961

reasonable odds and this will work out

quicker than applying at a 0% rate."

962

I, I love it.

963

It's, don't buy a, a bajillion

lottery tickets, buy the most likely

964

to be winning lottery tickets.

965

Yes.

966

Uh, I love that, Jeremy.

967

If you guys enjoyed this episode with

Jeremy, we'll have his LinkedIn and his,

968

uh, website in the show notes down below.

969

Jeremy is an awesome follow on LinkedIn.

970

He has his own podcast, and he's

written, what, three, five books?

971

How many books have you written

about landing a data job?

972

Or not landing a data job, landing

a job in, in today's market.

973

Yeah, too many.

974

But don't worry about

reading all the books.

975

Just get out there, start

connecting with folks.

976

That's what I want for

anyone listening right now.

977

Hey, that's perfect, Jeremy.

978

So if you guys wanna connect with Jeremy,

look at the show notes down below.

979

Jeremy, thanks so much for coming

on the Data Career Podcast.

980

Thanks for all you're doing, Avery.

981

Good luck to everyone.