Welcome back to season five of Enter the Bible, a podcast in which we share "Everything You Wanted to Know about the Bible...but were afraid to ask."

In episode 6 of season 5, Professor and Elva B. Lovell Chair of Old Testament at Luther Seminary, Kathryn Schifferdecker, joins guest co-host Cameron Howard and re-occurring host, Katie Langston.

Today our theologians will be answering the question, "Why Are Job's Three New Daughters Mentioned by Name at the End of the Book, but Not His Sons?"

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Katie Langston: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Enter the Bible podcast where you can get answers or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible. But were afraid to ask. I'm Katie Langston, and.

Cameron Howard: I'm Cameron Howard.

Katie Langston: And once again, we have our wonderful co host, co guest host, Cameron Howard, associate professor of Old Testament at Luther Seminary, because we are interviewing our regular co-host, Kathryn Schifferdecker, professor of Old Testament at Luther, about something that she knows quite a bit about. So hello, Kathryn.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Hi, Katie. Hey, Cameron. Thanks for thanks for helping us out.

Cameron Howard: Glad to be here.

Katie Langston: So the question that we have received again, this came in on our website and you can ask a question if you go to Enter the Bible. Org and click on the little button that says ask a question up at the top. "Why are jobs three daughters mentioned by name at the end of the book but not his sons? Usually it's women who are forgotten or unnamed rather than men." And Kathryn, you did your dissertation on Job and are a Job expert. So do you have an answer to this most burning of questions?

Kathryn Schifferdecker: I do. I do. And I should say right off the bat that I'm borrowing heavily in this answer from my own seminary, professor Ellen Davis, who is also my mentor and friend, particularly from this book of Ellen's. It's called Getting Involved with God, subtitled Rediscovering the Old Testament. She has a beautiful chapter in here on the Book of Job and spends a lot of time on that, on that last chapter where, chapter 42, where this where this situation is described.

Katie Langston: And and maybe just real quick, I don't know, Cameron, do you want to do like just the quickest of summaries of what happens in Job so that our listeners can follow along?

Cameron Howard: Oh, the quickest of summaries. Okay. Well, uh, God and God's adversary, um, are having a conversation and God says, Have you considered my servant Job? Um, basically, you can do anything to him except kill him and he will remain faithful to me. And Job is very you know, he offers lots of sacrifices. He's very faithful to God. He has a lot of, um, sort of wealth and prosperity and things are going very well for him. And so all of that gets taken away. And, um, he's covered in sores and scraping his sores, and his friends come to visit him and they are very pastoral for a was it 6 or 7 days and yeah. Then by sitting with him silently, but then they start to talk and they start to try to explain why this happened to him. Like, what did he do to deserve it? Or, you know, he must have done something wrong or all sorts of different reasons. Job, meanwhile, is calling on God to come and just for Job to be heard and found out to be righteous because he knows that he hasn't done anything to deserve this. And then finally, God does answer Job, coming out of the whirlwind and saying you you weren't there when I laid the foundations of the earth. What do you know about God? And there I'm going to stop and let Kathryn pick it up. How have I done so far?

Kathryn Schifferdecker: That's good. That's right. That's right.

Cameron Howard: Because I don't know how much detail you want to get into to lead into this question about Job and daughters at the end.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah, no, that's that's exactly right. Cameron It's people are surprised. I think, when they actually open the Book of Job in the Bible because they think they know the story, right? This righteous man who suffers and then is faithful to God and then as rewarded at the end. But it's 42 chapters long. It's one of the longer books in the Old Testament, and the great bulk of it is taken up with this dialogue between Job and his three so-called friends. Right? You're exactly right, Cameron. They start out well and then they open their mouth and everything goes to hell. I mean, yeah, they just they're blaming the victim, just blaming the victim the whole time. And then there's a fourth friend who does basically the same thing, and then God answers Job out of the whirlwind. And and then you get and and what God says isn't. "Oh, sorry. You know, sorry. I have this...

Katie Langston: "I'm sorry that I made a bet with the with with, with Satan and, like, cursed you for no reason. My bad." That's what I would want God to say.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah, I would too. And instead, God says, Where were you when I established the earth? And do you know when the mountain goats give birth? And can you reign in Leviathan, this great sea monster and and just kind of takes job on this whole whirlwind tour of creation, including all, you know, lots of different wild animals and including, like I said, Leviathan, this kind of sea dragon, sea monster and behemoth, which is kind of a super hippopotamus. And

Katie Langston: What? Stop.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: And we wonder, right, what in the world does this have to do? Yeah.

Katie Langston: So is there a super hippopotamus in the Bible?

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah.

Katie Langston: Is it. Is that a real thing? Is there really a super hippopotamus in the real world, or is that like a mythical creature? Kind of like Leviathan?

Kathryn Schifferdecker: He seems to be a mythical creature.

Katie Langston: Oh, dang it.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katie Langston: I was hoping that maybe I just hadn't heard about the super hippopotami. Okay, go on. Sorry.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Well, and then. And then you get. And then Job responds. Well, first job then says I can't say anything, and then Job responds the second time and says, I didn't understand what I was talking about. Right. I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you. Um, and then in chapter 42 six, Job, according to the many English translations, says, therefore, I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes, which is a terrible translation. Don't believe it. It's something more like therefore I recant or relent, being but dust and ashes or I reconsider what being dust and ashes means. Anyway, we don't have time to get into that. But that all leads into the question for us today, because Job's fortunes are restored. Well, first, God says pray for your friends because they didn't speak, I think, "to me" rightly, as my servant Job has. But most translations again say they didn't speak "of me" rightly. It can be translated either way. So Job does that. I mean, he he prays for his friends who have been just terrible to him which you know is is something. And um. And then after that God gives him back everything gives him back the, the oxen and the sheep and the donkeys and everything that he had before. And in fact gives him double back. Like in the beginning he had 500 yoke of oxen and in the last chapter he has a thousand yoke of oxen. And then God gives them again seven sons and three daughters. And this is where people hate the ending of Job, right? Because how can you replace children? And that's true, right? You can't, you cannot replace children. And there's this this interesting detail, though, with the with the with the daughters. As our questioner says, the text names tells what names Job gives the daughters. Uh, so it's. It's Jemimah, Which means dove. Keziah which means cinnamon or cinnamon stick and Keren-happuch, which means literally horn of eyeshadow. But I like to translate it rouge pot, because I don't know the point of eyeshadow, right? There are these very sensual names. So think of a dove, right? The the sound of a dove or cinnamon stick, the aroma or the taste of cinnamon or a horn of eyeshadow. You know, seeing the the, think about the eyeliner that you see in hieroglyphs or in drawings of ancient Egyptian men and women, those dark lines around the eyes. That's what that's what the name is talking about, horn of eyeshadow. And so Job gives them these very sensual names. They're the most beautiful women in the land. And Job gives them an inheritance along with their brothers, which is unheard of. Unheard of in the ancient Near East. So what is all this about? Well, back to my teacher, Ellen Davis. She she she asks. She says something that I think is just really perceptive in this. She says, the question to ask is not how much does it cost God to give Job more children like. No big deal. God can. God can give Job and Mrs. Job, by the way, more children. She says that's not the question. The question is, how much does it cost Job to become a father again? Right. How much does it cost Job to and Mrs. Job again to risk having children in a world that is heartbreaking, where, you know, having children is like taking your heart out of your chest and watching it walk around outside of you. Right. We all know, I think, how how risky that is, how risky it is to have children in terms of just the sorrow that can come. The joy too, of course. Right. But also the sorrow that is possible, Ellen says, and I think, again, this is a good analogy. The most courageous thing that Holocaust survivors did after the cataclysm was to have children again. Right. To have children again, even though they they knew firsthand the the heartbreak that was potentially, you know, that they were risking by having more children. So I just think that's a beautiful way to interpret that ending. Not, you know, not children can't of course, children can't be replaced. But how much does how much courage does it take for Job and his wife to choose to live again after such loss, after such heartbreak? Earlier in the book and the thing about the the names and the inheritance of the daughters, I think Job has learned to to parent in a way that God parents or that God allows creation to be right. In the whirlwind speeches, God talks about all these wild animals and God speaks about animals that are indifferent to and maybe even dangerous to human beings like Leviathan and and and God allows them the freedom to be who they're created to be. God allows them the freedom to be who God creates them to be. I think in the same way Jobe has learned to allow his children, and particularly his daughters in this case, to be who they're created to be: beautiful, sensual women who are given economic independence. Right. By being given an inheritance. And this is in contrast to, I think you mentioned this, Cameron, in your summary, in the first chapter of Job, the children have parties, probably birthday celebrations and every time they have a celebration together, Jobe rises early the next morning and offers sacrifices just in case they got you know, they drank too much and curse God in their hearts, they're preemptive sacrifices. And so, you know, he's very righteous, but he's also very careful. Right. Very, very rigid in a way. I think in the end, then Job learns to live with a little more freedom himself and to give his children that freedom to be the beautiful people that they that they are, especially his daughters.

Cameron Howard: Do you think, Kathryn, that Job is satisfied with God's answer at the end?

Kathryn Schifferdecker: I actually do. I know that there's disagreement. You know, there's those who would disagree with that. You know, some some people, some interpreters say Job's just kind of beaten into submission. Which is that where that translation comes from of 42:6 You know, "therefore, I despise myself and repent and dust and ashes". I don't think that's I don't think that's what he's doing. I think he's he's he's not given a full answer to suffering because I think the author of Job knows there is no full answer to undeserved suffering. But he's given he's given a vision of God somehow in that world. When those whirlwind speeches, you know, he he says back in chapter 19, "I know that my redeemer lives. And at the last he will stand upon the earth. And when my flesh has been destroyed, then I shall see God, whom I shall see on my side." So he has he has this hope. In chapter 19, probably the most famous passage in Job, which is fulfilled somehow in the whirlwind speeches, because in chapter 42, he says, I had heard of you, God, I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear. But now my eye sees you. So I do think he, you know, even though he's not given a full answer, I think he's given enough of a vision. Enough of a, well, he's given relationship, right? He's God shows up, God, God shows up and and responds to Job and takes him and expands his vision to see the world around him. You know, this beautiful, risky, free, wild world that God has created. And I think somehow in that vision, Job has seen God and he's and has come to at least some sort of peace. About his suffering.

Katie Langston: I think he learns that like, to live is to risk.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Sorry say that again.

Katie Langston: He learns that to live is to risk.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Langston: To love is to risk. And he sees somehow that God put into creation that same sort of riskiness. Um, and the inevitability with risk comes sort of this inevitability that you're going to be hurt. And I think he comes to accept that risk, whereas before he was like preemptively sacrificing, in order because he, he couldn't tolerate any risk. At the end, he sort of sees, oh, the world is much more wide open and unpredictable. Yeah. Than I thought because it is. Because.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: And that's part of its.

Katie Langston: Beauty to me. That's right.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: And that's that's part of its beauty. Yeah.

Katie Langston: Right. And so he can he can be more free, like with his daughters and like more generous and less, you know, kind of tightly wound up. I picture him like a wound up kind of stressed out.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah. No, I think that's right. I'll say two more quick things. One is something none of us have mentioned so far that, well, you did a bit, I think. Cameron that job rails against God throughout much of the book. I mean, he's just angry and you can't blame him. And he questions God and he accuses God. And one of the great gifts, one of the great responses to suffering that job offers us, as does as do the Psalms and other books, is the the Power of Lament, Right? Job and Psalms and other books, particularly in the Old Testament, demonstrate to us that it's okay to question God. It's okay to be angry. It's okay to shake your fist at God that God is big enough to take that because Job is commended in the end for speaking directly to God, unlike his friends who never who never prayed for Job, who never, you know, never directly addressed God. So that's one thing I want to say. The other thing I want to quote Ellen Davis again, in that beautiful chapter on Job in her book, Getting Involved with God, she says the great question that that that the voice from the whirlwind that God in the whirlwind speeches poses to Job. The great question is can you love what you do not control? Can you love what you do not control: the wild animals you know the wilderness, your own children. Right. And God. Um, so again, just some profound questions and themes that the Book of Job raises. It's certainly not an easy book and it's not kind of traditionally comforting, but I just think it's it's incredibly deep theologically and really worth studying. I'm actually working on a book on Job, another book on job besides the one I published from my dissertation. But that won't be done for probably a couple of years. So but it it's it's well worth, it's well worth your study those those of you listening to us but I would I would advise perhaps getting a study guide for it or getting this book again by Ellen Davis as a companion piece for reading Job.

Katie Langston: That's great. Thank you so much and thanks Cameron, for for co-hosting today and Kathryn for sharing your wisdom. This has been another episode of the Enter the Bible podcast and if you have enjoyed this or other episodes, I invite you to rate and review and your favorite podcast app and to share the podcast with a friend. Until next time.