In this week's episode, Dr. Ben Smith, a pediatric physiotherapist, shares his journey into pediatric physiotherapy, the importance of understanding pain in children, and practical strategies for parents to support their children's development and well-being.

Welcome to the Real Life. Real Kitchen Podcast with your host, Zoë F. Willis, English mother-of-many, Mum Mentor, and your host at this weekly gathering of real talk, real food, and real family life.

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Takeaways:

Dr. Ben Smith's journey into pediatric physiotherapy

Understanding pain in children and the brain's role

Developmental milestones and birth trauma

Differences between physiotherapy, osteopathy, and chiropractic care

Practical developmental games for children

Cultural influences on pain perception and response

The impact of birth experiences on movement and health

Strategies for parents to support their child's development and pain management

Foreign.

Welcome to the Real Life Real Kitchen podcast, a podcast for the curious mums.

And we look at the themes of family, food and community.

Today, I've been very fortunate to have Dr. Ben Smith, physiotherapist, as we call them here in the uk, or physical therapist, as they are on the other side of the pond.

Now, the reason I've got Ben on is he's not just a, like bog standard physiotherapist, but his speciality is in pediatric physiotherapy.

So I have questions.

Obviously this is why these interesting people come on my podcast, but I'd like.

Dr. Ben, could you please give us a little bit of a background how you got into the.

Not just the physiotherapy, but why?

Specializing in pediatrics?

Yeah, absolutely.

So it's a.

It's a really kind of a backwards story.

I had zero interest in going into pediatrics when I was in PT school.

There's just not many 20 to 22 year old guys who are like, you know what sounds good?

Bunch of crying kids.

Yep.

That just sounds amazing.

And my life needs more of that.

You just don't think that.

So I thought, you know, sports patient, ortho, something along those lines.

And I went into that and it was fun.

It was, I was fine, you know, went through all of the pediatric classes in PT school, went through the rotations.

You know, you get trained in kind of everything a little bit and then you specialize when you get out, which is what I did.

But about three years into it, there was this thing that happened and that thing was my wife got pregnant.

Ah.

Had one of these little babies in the house and I was doing some fun stuff.

Noah is our oldest child.

He's 15 now.

But at that time I was doing things with Noah and man, the just, just the amount of time it took him to take the information I was giving him and learn it and then do the thing I was getting him to do.

I was like, oh, wow, this is easier than adults, not harder, you know, in some ways.

So I just really kind of fell in love with that.

And as he got older, six months a year, 18 months, I thought, man, this is like, this is kind of fun, you know, now.

So I got into that and started a pediatric practice very slowly.

Was fortunate to find some people that let me do it by the patient.

I got to pay my rent by the patient.

Amazing.

I started my practice with $500.

Yes.

And I had my first piece of equipment was a giant Rubbermaid cattle trough.

Wow.

Basically Like a, like a giant swimming pool.

Yeah.

That I spray painted with really bright colors and put foam trim around and went and bought some balls and I had a ball pit and frisbees and that kind of stuff and.

But that's all kids want, right?

They, they want the fun.

They don't care how much it costs.

Yeah.

So that's how I got into pediatrics in the first place.

Yeah.

You know, not how I planned it,

but it's, it's funny how life, life takes you on these paths and it, it is amazing actually, the conversations I have with medical practitioners, how having children actually has a huge impact on their trajectory.

So they think they're going in one direction all of a sudden.

Oh.

Seem to be being taken off in, in, in this other route, which is proving much more interesting.

Now, just a question.

In terms of the little ones learning the techniques, the exercises that you're giving them, or at least their bodies learning that, is that because as grownups we're quite disconnected from our bodies?

Yeah, that's part of it.

And we have conflicting inputs.

Right.

A six month old doesn't know full sentences, they don't know languages, they don't know things like that.

So the only language they know is touch, feel, light, sound, you know, so it's, it's the input that you give them.

They don't, they're not processing the language and going, well, I think they meant this.

They're just going, what do I feel?

Yeah, okay, I felt that.

That's it.

You know, it's, it's novel.

Everything's novel to them.

Yeah, yeah, it's different.

So I'm going to take it back a couple of steps because I am sort of looking into this whole world.

There's physiotherapy, there's osteopathy, there's being a chiropractor, cranial, chiropractic, cranial.

What is the difference between all these things?

What's.

You all seem to be prodding and poking and making a difference, but what's.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So the main difference is, is pts are gonna, A physiotherapist or physical therapists are gonna focus more on the functional movement of the body.

Like how does, how does your brain process and move in a normal way?

And that involves most of your bodily systems, whether it's, you know, vestibular, your inner ear, balance, visual, all of those things have to work together.

Obviously muscular, skeletal, you know, ligamentous tendons, all that kind of stuff.

Nerves, it's, it's all Integrated, whereas more like an osteopath, chiropractor, the people that do the cranial work, their.

Their goal is more, can your body move that direction?

So, like, will your spine move that far?

Okay.

Whereas the physical therapist is like, can you move your spine that far and in an appropriate way?

So they're complimentary.

A lot of.

A lot of people.

And honestly, just to be real, a lot of chiropractors and a lot of physiotherapists, physical therapists are like, oh, they're.

We're competitors.

You know, we're.

Don't go to them.

Come to me.

When really they should work in tandem.

It would be better for the patient.

And I have some chiropractors that are really close here in geographically and in relationship.

So we work pretty well together.

It's best for the patient.

Yeah, yeah.

Because it should be about the health.

The health of the patient.

They should be the central bit rather than the egos.

In theory.

In theory.

So you are a doctor.

Is that as a result of getting your degree in physiotherapy, or did you do a PhD?

What's.

You've got this title.

It's very impressive.

How did that come about?

Yeah, yeah.

And if you're on my zooms, usually my screen says Just Ben instead of Dr. Ben.

Just Ben.

Yeah.

It's a clinical doctorate in the States now.

So you can't graduate from PT school without your doctorate.

It's required.

Okay.

And then so it's basically based on clinical time rotations, like real life world experience.

Yeah, yeah.

So we don't do, like a dissertation, like a PhD or anything like that.

Okay.

Okay.

So that's where that comes from.

So when you started off with the children, with your giant cattle trough full of balls and the children romping and playing, what sort of things were the children coming?

Or.

Obviously the parents are bringing the kids, but what are they coming to you with?

What were the struggles?

So I'll tell you the crazy thing about pediatrics is the variety of things that you get.

You can get anything from ankle sprains, you know, broken wrists, elbows, forearms, hands.

You know, so all the typical orthopedic things.

But you can get all of the genetic things, too.

You know, all of the chromosome deletions, the birth trauma, cerebral palsy, down syndrome, autism, and then just kids that, honestly, something's not exactly right.

But there's no diagnosis.

The doctor just goes, I don't know.

But they need to work on PT or OT or speech, so we're sending them.

So it's really a mixed bag of kids.

It's a very broad range of both verbal and non verbal.

So you may have a kid that's nine years old, never said a word.

Well, how do you do that?

Yeah, you know, how do you get them to participate?

How do you understand if they're in trouble or panicking or if they're in pain or if they're, you know, how do you, what do you, how do you look for that?

How do you look for that?

I'm gonna presume the mother or the, I'm gonna say predominantly the mother is there as an advocate, but you as the pt.

How are you kind of.

Because we're now using a different language.

It is very much touch and it's not like, I mean, with a baby, you've got them as a mum, you've got them close to you and you physically know what's going on.

But when you're meeting an older child for the first time and you've never met them before and you're having to be intimate like that, how do you read, how do you read that?

How do you communicate?

So as far as, you know, personality or as far as just getting to know the kid, it's gonna be a lot of interview with the mom at first.

With caregivers, if you're looking at pain specifically, we, and we use this with most patients, even adults, because adults don't really even understand their own pain sometimes.

I would say a lot of times, you know, we just assume because we're older and have more shiny things that we know more, you know, or that we're more aware of our bodies than kids are.

But many, many times we're not.

So we use something called the FLAC scale, F, L, A, C, C. And it's a non verbal pain scale and the F stands for face.

So you look at their face, they get a score, zero through two.

So like zero is just, they're just like normal face expression, you know, whatever.

Two is like they're kind of, you know, they're kind of like looking around or maybe a little, you know, eyes aren't standing still.

Then a 2 is like, they're like clenched jaw, sweating red.

You know that?

And you see that same thing for face, legs, how active they are.

The A is activity.

So like, are they fidgety?

Are they, are their legs just like squirmy and tense and they're rolling side to side or are they just completely still and calm?

You know, the first C is cry.

Like look at their eyes.

You Know, are they watery, are they perfectly fine or the tears just pouring out?

And then the last one is consolability.

Like if you just go.

So maybe they're a zero on all the other ones, but they, or, or they look like it, but you can go up and pat them on the back and say, hey, how's it going?

And then they just light up.

Well, they just wanted to say hi, you know, they just wanted you to come over and give them a hug.

And they were mad you hadn't said hi yet.

You know, they're not hurting.

So you kind of go through all, all five of those and it gives you a score from 0 to 10.

Because a kid can't tell you, like, well, what's your pain today?

On a scale from 0 to 10,

I think they're purple.

Yeah.

So that's a, that's kind of a nonverbal way to do it.

That's a really, that's, that's a really helpful framework to have actually, because, I mean, even as everybody.

My sense is that different people have different pre pain thresholds.

There are some people who seem to just be able to kind of push on.

There are others where it's like, oh, you've got a paper cut and your world's falling apart.

You know, they got these different things.

And also, I suppose there's a difference between acute pain, all of a sudden, bam, that's come out of nowhere and the gradual pain.

You don't realize you're carrying that and how weary you are until it stops.

Yeah.

Now this is quite a useful thing, certainly for the, for the little ones, but I presume you see that as well with the children.

There are these different levels of pain tolerance within different individuals.

Yeah, absolutely.

So that's called interoceptive.

What a fancy word I'm writing.

Iteroceptive.

Yeah.

And what that means is, is that some people just have a greater sense of what's going on with their body.

They get stronger signals and it's, you know, just like some people have better hearing and they just, you know, they're more sensitive to, to whatever it may be.

Even with internal organs.

Some people are just more more sensitive to the sensation of their internal organs and things like that.

You don't know that with a kid.

No, you know, they just don't have any idea.

The thing with kids, when they say that they hurt, everything's new and they don't have the vocabulary to tell you.

This is weirding me out.

Like my stomach is bubbling.

I've never felt this before.

I Don't know.

It hurts.

That's the only word I've got.

It hurts, you know, so it's just whatever the.

Whatever the feeling is.

Because kids get so many new novel sensations all the time.

We think about.

Think about when you've had a stomachache.

Well, you've probably had 20 different types of stomachaches.

You've had some that are kind of crampy, sharp pain.

You've had some that are just annoying, dull pain.

You've had some that are kind of bubbly feeling.

You've had, you know, whatever.

There's a whole variety of them.

Well, that kid may not have had that experience till they're nine years old.

They may have been on the earth for nine years.

Now they're going, what is happening to me?

And falling apart.

This is it.

I love that.

This is the end.

So they just go, my stomach hurts.

My stomach hurts.

My stomach hurt.

Nobody moves my stomach.

So because they don't know, they're not going to say, you know, my stomach feels a little bit gaseous and I think I need a little more fiber in my diet, Mother.

They're not gonna say that.

They don't know.

So it's not gonna happen.

And then I think probably to go back a couple of steps further, I think it would be useful.

I think it would be really good to.

To understand.

To start off with, what is pain?

Yeah.

What even is it?

You know?

So pain is not like I have a coffee cup, okay?

I can't hand you a coffee cup full of pain.

It's not that.

It's not a thing.

Right.

It's not like something, you know, you don't have.

We used to think you had pain receptors.

Like there was a pain receptor in my finger, you know, and it wouldn't.

And when I heard it, it would hurt, and it would send the hurt to my brain.

Yeah, that's not what I. Yeah, I remember something like that in biology.

And there'd be these kind of blobby things.

There'd be synapses and things happening between.

But that is old science.

So the new sciences.

So pain is actually a decision that your brain makes.

Oh.

So it takes all of the information.

So, like, in my hand, I would have all of these different sensors.

Okay.

So I've got hot, cold, like thermore sensor.

Tell me something's hot, tell me something's cold.

Then I've got mechanoreceptors that tell me, like, if there's something stingy.

Did something stab me?

You know, did it go?

Did it Pierce my skin and go underneath it.

I've got proprioceptors that tell me how far my joints are going.

Like, is it going outside of somewhere that it's supposed to be?

And it gives my brain all of this information, and my brain goes, hmm, is this dangerous or not dangerous?

Your is dangerous.

You're pulling your finger back too far.

It's going too far.

It's gonna crack.

Yeah, exactly.

It's a protective mechanism.

So here's a helpful story that you can tell kids, okay?

You can tell kids there's this little guy that lives in your head, okay?

And he was born the same time that you were, okay?

And it's like this little security guard that lives in your head, and he is watching everything that happens to you, okay?

Everything you feel, everything you see, everything you touch.

He's in there, and he's looking out for you, okay?

And his only job.

His only job is.

Is to go, that's dangerous.

That's going to hurt Noah, whatever your kid's name is, okay?

That's dangerous.

That's going to hurt Avery.

I'm going to protect Avery, So I'm going to take this switch, and I'm going to go pain.

So that Avery will know.

Avery, this is dangerous.

Stop.

You need to stop what you're doing, because this might hurt you, right?

This might cause positive, like, permanent damage if we keep going down this road.

So his only job is to go alarm.

Alarm on.

You know?

So when you sprain your ankle and your ankle goes way outside, what does your security guard do?

Zoe, what does your security guard do?

When you fall and you scrape your knee on the concrete, what does your security guard do?

Alarm.

Right.

And then you.

And then you give them three or four of those, and you say, when I make you a bowl of ice cream and you put in your lab, your security guard goes.

And I go, oh, wait, I like that.

I go.

See, you're learning and you're teaching your security guard.

That's how he learns.

He learns as you learn.

Yeah.

So that's how.

That's how you can simple, easy, fun, storage that you can get.

And it helps them externalize the feeling so it's not just all bottled up, you know, inside of them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They can understand what pain is, why it's even there while we have it.

Gosh, it's interesting.

Do you know, I heard something as well recently.

Okay.

Actually, two points.

I'm going to come back to that point.

I was talking to my son about leprosy, as one does, because we're looking at Bible stories and obviously there's a lot of leprosy in, in the.

Well throughout.

A lot of leprosy.

But it was quite interesting because I was talking to him about the fact that this bacterial infection, the problem is it stops these senses, the ones, you know, the sharp, stingy ones.

You can't.

You.

So you will pick up a pan and it's hot but you don't realize it.

And then you get the injuries and then you get the infection.

And that's why you get the kind of the lumpiness and all the everything going wrong because you have these infections that you can't feel and it all goes wrong.

And it was quite an interesting exercise talking to him.

Imagine not having pain.

This is, this is the result.

If you can't feel it, if you can't go, that is a hot pan or I've cut myself or ouch, that's been pulled too far backwards.

You.

That's a real problem.

Very much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, very much so.

And then there was a second thing I heard recently which I found fascinating.

So I'm calling in from England.

So we're going to talk about class.

We're going to talk about class here.

But a really interesting thing how you had this observation that middle class versus working class.

Working class women will also, how let me put this correctly.

So they were talking about birth and sort of the struggles that some women have with birth.

And you would get.

The middle class women were much more likely to say I need the epidural, I need this, I need that, it's hurting too much.

Whereas the working class ladies there was more of a kind of a stoic, we're just cracking on.

Which I thought was quite interesting sort of cultural perceptions of pain.

This isn't specifically to do with children, but have you got any thoughts on that?

Yeah.

So all a culture is, a culture is a group of people who adhere to, you know, rules without them being laws basically.

Right.

They just all kind of agree that this is how we behave.

That's why you get some kids that behave a lot like their parents as far as pain goes.

Yeah.

So one of the first things that we always have and, and typically, not to be, not to be harsh, but it typically it's the mom.

Yeah, typically it's the mom.

It's fine, you know, say it.

Just say, yeah, typically it's calm.

They're going to respond at.

They can't respond, respond any calmer than you do.

So whatever your baseline of calm is to, when they get Hurt.

They're not going to be calmer than that.

Right.

You're, you're kind of their anchor, you're their reference point.

Because it's again, novelty like that.

You're experiencing things they've never experienced before.

That's why you've seen kids, you've probably experienced this.

A kid will fall hurt, hit themselves, run into a wall, whatever.

And the first thing they do is they go and they look at their

parents like, what, what am I supposed to do?

What's happening?

Should I be crying right now?

You know?

And then, you know, if the parents give a pretty calm response again, as long as it's not a major injury, the parents do a pretty calm response.

You know, they'll cry a little bit, but they'll, they'll, you know, pretty much self see, whereas, you know, mom or dad comes sprinting across the infield, you know, to help little Susie who got barely hit by a baseball.

Well, you, you've just taught her that this is an immensely dangerous event.

So the, the little security guard in little Susie's head just learned, oh, when I get barely hit on the knee by something hard, this is like potentially life threatening.

Wow.

I should probably completely freak out next time because that's what happened this time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So there is a cultural family component to it.

Yeah.

As well.

No, really, really interesting.

No, it's so funny.

I had one of my, my youngest.

It was, you know those moments where the child is sitting and then the next minute you're, where has the child gone?

The child had done a flip into a washing basket that was empty on the floor and everybody in the room went.

But we had a quick look and you're like, oh, no, you're fine, you're fine.

It's absolutely fine.

Let's put you back on the check.

You're fine.

And he was so.

Yes, it is sometimes having to kind of keep it together in those moments until you are feeling a little bit calmer as well.

With the physiotherapy.

There's something I'm quite interested in is sort is again, I've gone down a little bit on this rabbit hole and I've come across osteopaths who are helping the babies, who've got colic, who've got tongue tie and things like this and they're doing their cliquey or whatever it is they do.

And these babies, usually there's been a cesarean section or there's actually been quite a traumatic natural birth as a physiotherapist Are you dealing with those consequences later on with children?

Are you able to help the babies who have that?

Is that something that you're able to deal with?

Yeah, I wish that we would get them sooner.

You know a big barrier to, to kids getting better and getting some of those things taken care of is actually the, this is, this is always funny is the parents, they either, you know they're going to try to fix it on their own first or they just.

We're, we're blind to our own kids flaws and shortcomings sometimes and it's usually we're on, we're one extreme or the other.

We're either like we look at our kids through rose colored glasses.

So like my kid works whatever there this is, my kid is the best artist in the whole school.

And like, you know, I mean I could kick a can of paint over, you know, and whatever and it would be just as good as, you know, what this 10 year old did, which is fine.

But we just tend to look at our kids like that or we're on the opposite side and we look at our kid through whatever the opposite color of rose colored glasses are and nothing they do is.

We just want to, we just.

And it comes from good intentions both places, you know.

But really telling the true story in the middle of where your kid really is is super hard as a parent.

Super hard.

And that's why there's objective tests, right?

That's why there's tests that are like standardized.

We're measuring you, we're testing you across your peer group, those kinds of things.

So I wish that that would happen sooner and I wish that it would become more normalized that parents had these skills that they could start working on.

We call them developmental games.

So we do, we have 10 games that are developmental games that we give parents that are just fun, just fun time at the house.

One of them is very specifically geared towards pain and anxiety and kids.

So we can, we can talk about that at some point today, whenever you want.

Yes, please.

It's very, very simple.

But it's very, very fun.

It is my kids favorite thing of the whole week.

It's their favorite, favorite holiday of the whole week when we play that game.

Go on.

So what can you give me examples of some of these developmental games?

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The link's in the show notes.

Yep.

So we have one called this is good for socialization for kids that are.

If you have like an older kid, younger kid that seem to have difficulty maybe finding the balance of playing together, we call it.

It's called Rock Em Sock Em.

Yeah.

And both kids, you clear out the living room floor, push all the furniture back, you know, everything out of the way.

And both kids have long lived loose pairs of dads or mom's socks on their feet.

Your only job, only job is you can't fall over and you have to get the sock off of your brother or sister's foot.

And the first person to get both socks off wins.

There's no hitting, there's no kicking, but there's a lot of squirreling around and balance.

And, you know, they're leaned almost all the way over anyway, so if they fall over, it doesn't hurt.

You know, it's really, really, really easy.

Fun game.

And you can tell older brothers just like, okay, you know, we need to teach them how to be good at this game.

So I need you to help me teach them.

So you're gonna win two out of three, but let them win one time, you know, make it a channel, but let them win at least once, you know, and they'll, you know, talk all kinds of trash.

If they're like my kids to each other, that's what my kids do anyway, so.

But it's just fun things like that, you know, and then you can play with them, you know, we'll play with them.

It's, it's.

But that does a couple of things.

One is it's just fun, right?

So it's family time together, which is just at a premium anyway.

And then two, you're working on a ton of those bodily systems all at one time.

So that's balance, coordination, strategy and planning.

If they're thinking about all of those things, what are they probably not thinking about?

Probably not thinking about, oh, that kind of burned a little bit when I drugged my toe across the tarp carpet.

Right?

Because they've got all these competing inputs, there's only so much bandwidth that your brain can process at one time.

So when you're really busy with something fun, you actually have a lower threshold of being able to, to turn that alarm on because you just can't get the sensations as much.

So that's, that's one example, my favorite and my Kids favorite game is called Smash Time.

Smash Time.

And this is Smash Time.

And this is where we save the Amazon cardboard boxes.

Yep, this is my favorite way to do it.

And we have a broomstick that we've cut off about 2/3 and we stuck a pool noodle on the end of it.

So it's got a little handle and it's got a pool noodle about 2/3 of the way up.

And we just take it out in the yard.

And the cardboard box lives out in the yard.

And they get five minutes to just beat the living daylights out of this cardboard box.

Yeah, just smash the heck out of it.

We've done rubber hammers and trees.

I mean we've done roll up pillows, inside of paper towels and whatever, you know, punch it, kick it, roll it, whatever.

The reason that's so good for kids, for paint that have.

That are a little bit on the.

What we would call like a whiny kid if you don't.

So whiny.

Yeah.

You know the reason, the reason that's so good for them is, is it teaches them big physical movements and fun can go together.

Because if the only time they're experiencing big physical movements is when they get moved, like a kid runs into them, you know, they slip and fall and hit the floor.

The only experience they have with big movements is it hurt.

So they're going to avoid all big movements and things like that.

So they need to be exposed to.

Oh, movement is good.

It actually.

Yes.

You know, this can be fun too.

And it's too late in the moment when the kid's being whiny.

So if the kid's whiny in the moment, that's not the time to address it.

You know, you just sit there with them, you know, kid falls, falls and hits their knee, you know, whatever.

Just, you know, as long as you can tell there's no, there's not blood coming out everywhere.

And bone shot, of course, if it's a minor injury, go over and you sit beside them, you put your arm around and go, man, that floor is hard.

You know, like, man, your knee looks terrible.

You know, that's.

You're going to get a very different response like that.

God, man, that floor is hard, isn't it?

You know, and you go like that, you put your arm around him and go.

I remember when I hit my, you know, I think I cried a lot more than you did when I was a kid, you know, when I hit my knee on the floor.

And he said, but, you know, just tell me when you're ready, you know, you're safe.

I try to say, you're safe, you're not alone, whatever.

Instead of you're not hurt.

That's not that big of a deal, you know, because all they're telling you is, is no, I experienced an event.

And what you're saying is, is no, you didn't.

They're like, yes, I did.

No, you didn't.

Yes, I did.

I see it, it's perfect.

So that's a way of validating it without making it a bigger deal than what it is.

And you need to give them the room to talk through it.

And if you've told them the security guard story right, then you can talk through it with them.

You say, man, what do you think your security guard learned through this?

Learn.

The floor is hard.

Should probably try not to fall on it, you know, but we didn't have to go to the hospital, you know, like, couple of minutes, then it feels better, you know.

So think about, think about how much smarter your security guard is now.

You were teaching that guy all things.

And I'm thinking as well, with the, the whiny child having something like the SMASH time, what you described as a child who is, is, is quite subject to everybody else and everything else, whereas the smash them, they've got much more control, autonomy, autonomy, free will, all of that.

And that's giving them a more, much more confidence, confidence about things.

I want to go back just quickly to birth babies.

The effect of birth on the movement.

Yes.

Have you got anything you can say on that?

Do you?

I don't know.

It just isn't really something that comes up.

You find it in the crunchy circles, but in sort of mainstream, the profound effects that birth seems to have on some children.

Have you got any observations on that?

Yeah.

Think about what a change you've been inside Mom.

It's warm, it's nice.

All the sounds are kind of like muffly and calm and, you know, serene.

You're just kind of floating there like in your own sensory deprivation tank, you know, and you can hear mom's heartbeat.

And all of a sudden you're just like rushed out into the world.

Right.

And then, and then during that process, sometimes you get, you know, cranial misalignments, you get work traumas, you get, you know, all of those sort of things.

So from a movement based standpoint, what we want to do is make sure that those kids are going through every developmental milestone.

All of them not skipping one, not going, oh, well, look at my kid.

You know, he's walking at six months, but he never really crawled, like, a lot, and he never was really like, super tummy time.

Baby didn't roll both directions, you know, because those are all avoidant behaviors in babies.

That means that they are either they're weaker on that side, they're not comfortable on that side, they don't trust that side.

Yeah, maybe it's a little bit, you know, like the cranial, you know, misalignment part of it.

Like, if they always have their head kind of turned this way, you start seeing, you know, torticollis that kind of.

We get like, you know, like, like shortening of a neck muscle, you know, those sort of things.

Because that all affects, you know, kids as we get older and even.

Even into adulthood.

So you really want to make sure that your kids go through every developmental phase.

Yeah.

Like, firmly.

And because as a parent, it's easy to go, well, my kid's already walking at nine months.

It's like,

that's exhausting.

You don't want them walking at nine months.

No.

So a question, because I also, within my range of children, we've had crawlers and we've had bum shufflers, and the bum shufflers have been pretty speedy, but they never crawled.

Is that because they were avoiding something Just faster.

Just faster.

If they feel like they can do, especially if your kids are pretty interactive, like, if they're.

If they have a high natural level of curiosity, like I see thing across the room, I'm going to get thing across the room.

And if they feel like they can do that, you know, faster by whatever means, then they'll do it that way, you know, and that.

That's okay.

I also said I loved with the bum shuffling as well.

It's.

They'd have a free hand for holding, so they could still move quickly and hold onto something.

Whereas when you're crawling, you.

You can't.

You can't.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Okay, so.

So a little bit of a takeaway from that is if a child has been avoiding things like the crawling, the rolling and all of this sort of thing, worth just having a bit of a.

Taking them to have them prodded and poked by physio.

Yes and no.

So I'll give you what I would.

This is what I would do.

This is what I would tell a parent.

Hey, our kid rolls and looks over to this side for whatever reason, like, they just don't.

They just ignore the other hand, really.

They just don't use it much.

You know, it's just kind of.

And it's usually something that you notice.

Like this is something that's pretty obvious.

You know, the first thing you would do is just for the next week, put everything on that side that they want.

Just make them, they may have just, they're just not doing it because they just never have had to.

So just give them the opportunity to do it first before you, before you have anything like that done.

But worst case scenario, 99 kids out of a hundred, probably more than that, are going to be just fine development.

You know, they're going to develop at their own speed.

You just have to under.

Understand there's a range.

When you look at these standardized tests, there's a reason why it says it's normal.

You know, walking is normal from 9 months to 15, 16, 17 months.

I mean, that's a wide range.

That kid's almost twice as old chronologically as a nine month old, but it's still normal.

So it's, it's just having the perspective in place that makes the biggest difference.

Then at that point, if you're like, nothing seems to work.

I'm looking at these developmental milestones.

We're pretty good ways past it.

Yeah, they can take them in and, you know, just have somebody look them over.

Yeah, yep.

And, and have a, have a check.

Okay, can we come back to the whiny child?

Because that made me then think about pain and anxiety, which you referred to earlier.

Can you sort of expand a bit on that?

Because obviously, sort of anxiety seems to be a big thing certainly amongst the teenagers and the, what are they called before?

Tween age.

Tween.

Before they become teenagers.

Is there anything you can talk to on that?

Yep.

So in younger kids, anxiety is typically like from a clinical standpoint.

And again, if you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist, I'm a physical therapist.

So you can explain this however you want to if you're listening to this.

But the way that we understand it is that anxiety really results from two different things.

Things.

It's a low, it's a low level at its base.

It's a, there's some kind of thing you're sensing.

It's a low level threat.

You're constantly in this state of like, there's a low level threat around me at all times.

I just never feel like there's not a threat, even if it's just tiny.

Right.

Just very, very low level.

In kids, that's usually like household environment.

And it's not that you're treating your kids badly.

It's not that they're, you Know, like, siblings are mean or whatever.

It's usually mirrored behavior from the parent.

Look, if you're always in a hurry, in a rush, always, you just look like you're.

You're just stressed all the time.

They're going to look at mom and dad and go, man, they're bigger, stronger, older, wiser than I am.

You know, in their primitive brain.

Even if they're babies and they're going to go, they look like something's not safe around here.

I guess I should feel that way, too.

Yep.

You know?

Yeah.

So they just constantly walk around at that low level state threat.

So what that means is it doesn't take much.

Like, if there are four out of 10 walking around every day, it doesn't take much to get them to a six.

And now they're like, oh, they're starting to get whiny and verbalize and, you know, everything hurts a little more than it would otherwise versus a kid that has virtually no anxiety.

You know, something, you know, pretty annoying may happen to them, and they can kind of, you know, bounce it off because it only brings them up to a 4 versus if you're already at 4, now they're an 8.

Yeah.

So it's tipping them over when they're already at a low baseline.

Okay, that's right.

So they're at that threshold already.

And then in teenagers and in, like, the early teens, the.

The tweens, teens, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Even early adulthood social media, what's somebody going to say about me?

What are they going to post?

I'm in competition with them.

You know, is this girl going to post?

Is she going to look better in her prom dress than I am?

Is this guy going to go out with this girl?

Am I, you know, whatever.

Am I going to make the team?

Am I going to be on varsity or junior varsity?

You know, there's all these things that they have and a lot of that we didn't have to deal with.

You know, I mean, social media came about really right when I was getting out of college, when it really got big, it was there, but, you know, it wasn't like it is now.

So.

So for teens, it's.

It's that and directionlessness.

So if they feel like there's no compass, and this is for adults, too.

Anxiety is when you really feel like there's.

You don't know which way to go.

So, like, if you've been working on a project and you start to feel anxiety about that project, it's probably because you don't Know the next step, clearly.

So you get anxious about it.

Well, that makes all of your other bodily systems more sensitive.

So now, you know, pain is worse, depression is worse, their attitude is a little worse.

Not to mention, you know, the gigantic hormonal swings.

Yes.

And it's quite.

I'm also thinking if you're, if you're one of these, one of these people who feels your body more, it's quite a sort of squishy.

There's a lot sensory happening and changing when you're a teenager on top of just all of the kind of the mental stuff as well.

So you're having all of that.

So you're much more sensitive to it.

Question for you.

I was listening to an interview with Jimmy Carr.

I don't know if you come across him, he's a English comedian, but he travels.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's quite.

Have to admit, not that keen on his comedy.

Very sweary.

But if you hear him speak in a normal capacity, he's.

Lots of wisdom there.

Obviously he's not a medical professional, but he made a really interesting observation.

He was talking to, I think it was the Chris Williamson podcast and he was talking about anxiety and depression and Carr said, you know, I prefer to use the terms worry and sadness.

Now, I know there's clinical depression, but I thought that was quite a powerful change using that language because that's more of a.

This is passing, I'm going to get through it.

Whereas the anxiety sounds like much more of a label.

You are an anxious person.

You have this thing is that again, sort of the language side of things is quite interesting for me.

Is that something that you're dealing with, I presume, as well with the parents sort of tailoring your language to give encouragement and a bit more direction, self empowerment.

Have you got any thoughts on that?

Yeah, I think that's great.

I really, really am avoidant of putting like a permanent label on someone.

So, you know, it, it's no different.

And this would.

This will sound absolutely ridiculous, but this is the same thing.

If you just said, well, you're just a bad kid, like you're not gonna tell your kid that, you know, you're probably.

You shouldn't tell anybody else's kid.

Yeah, you shouldn't.

So.

But you shouldn't.

You say that was a bad decision.

You know, it's not a permanent situation.

Versus if you, you know, you have clinical depression, you have this, you know, now it's like, oh, it's the same.

It's part of me forever, for the rest of my Life.

And there, there are people who have, you know, a genetic predisposition.

You can see on MRIs.

You can see it on that.

But it's kind of like the people that say, well, I just can't lose weight because I have.

So I have a slow metabolism.

Yes.

Like, do you know how many people really have a metabolic disorder?

It's not many.

It's like a quarter of a percent of the population.

Yeah, the.

The rest of us just like food more than we like activity.

It's.

It's really not more complicated than that, you know, but we, but we like to say, oh, we had this thing.

And the other problem with that is if I am the problem, I can be the solution.

Right.

If my genetics are the problem.

Well, you can't change your genetics.

So now there is no solution.

Or the only solution is medication, or the only solution is whatever, you know.

So it's just very disempowering for the kid or the adult or whoever to go through looking life like that.

It's.

It's interesting, that whole kind of genetic element.

Again, not a scientist, not a medical professional, but I have one of my interviewees, Liz Corcoran, I've interviewed her for.

About functional medicine.

So anybody who's listening, you can go through the back catalog.

But she is also leads a charity, the Down Syndrome Research Fund, where they are looking.

Obviously, that is a genetic condition, you know, that is you've got your chromosomal abnormalities, which means you get the down syndrome.

But there are particular elements, for example, the mouth breathing, the snoring, there's kind of sleep apnea and problems there.

And what she's looking at, yes, this is a genetic thing, but let's see what kind of interventions we can do to alleviate it.

And I think that's a much, it seems, seems to me at least again, a much more kind of empowering, encouraging way of looking at things.

Again, I'm a sort of healthy person.

All my children are healthy.

I don't.

I don't have this.

But my sense is, yes, there might be a genetic predisposition, but there are ways to alleviate and still strengthen.

Is that, is that fair or am I demanding too much of people?

No, all anybody can do is maximize the hands that you've been dealt.

That's all you can do in anything, in anything that you have, any situation that you're in, you know, genetics or regardless.

So for you to go through, you know, life without an attitude, you know, like that, where if all we're going to do is we're going to look at, you know, let's find something wrong with us and that's it.

Well, let's just all go jump off a cliff right now because it's hopeless.

Now, if I took it, if I did all of your labs, if I X rayed an MRI to everything in your body, you know what?

I would find something.

Yeah.

I mean, in every human alive on the planet, you're going to find some kind of abnormality.

Abnormality.

You know, if you did an MRI of my.

But I'm, I'm 41 before you in July.

If you MRI my back and my spine as much as I played sports and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and whatever other stupid things I've done my whole life, you're going to find something.

I have a disc that's compressed.

I have some, you know, it's going to be expanding.

I have osteophytes, bone spurs.

You'll find something, but that doesn't mean that it has to be symptomatic.

You can make it not symptomatic.

You can have the abnormality and still not have to deal with the symptoms.

And that's what, that's what this lady is doing.

Yeah.

Which is wonderful, I think.

Yeah.

Yep.

That's.

No, it's.

Yeah, no, that's a very powerful way of looking at it.

You've got the hands, you've been dealt.

Onwards to greatness, onwards to glory.

Oh, and here's my other take on that.

Okay, Zach, no, you can't.

I can't know.

You can't tell by looking on the camera right now, but I AM A towering 5 foot 7 Irish background, okay?

So I could look at that and I could say, well, you know, I was just born short, whatever, you know, or whatever other.

I'm left handed, which I am, you know, whatever other weird things about me you could find.

But if you look at life like it's a hand of poker that you've been dealt, okay, like, what we like to do is go, oh, man, look at that.

Ace.

Look at that.

Yeah, but they have an ace and a bunch of other junk.

Like you've got, you've got three eights.

You're.

You're an eight in, you know, creativity, you're an eight in, in wit, and you're an eight in writing, and you have an interest in political science.

Great.

Be a political cartoon columnist.

Yeah, that person can never do that, you know, that you're looking at right now, you know, so it's, it's more about.

Look at the, look at the hand you've been dealt.

Because it's, it's not the highest card that wins.

Right.

It's.

It's learning to stack them.

How can you stack the things that you have on top of each other where it's just you.

Where it's just your thing and your calling and your kids are going to be the same way.

So help them.

Don't push them into that.

Help them figure out what that is.

Yeah, yeah.

To find that.

I have to admit I'm quite envious of your 5 foot 7 because that means you can do things like forward rolls.

And that was never my gift.

It was just because I'm 6 foot.

So it would be like a kind of a flop to the side and legs and arms and coordination.

I was, I was regaling my family with my attempts at tennis, not my gift.

So.

So.

Yes, but other gifts.

Other gifts definitely have those.

Ben.

Thank you.

That's given again.

I, I mean, I just love these conversations.

It's such a blessing to have them and people like yourself who come on and are willing to answer and hear my thoughts and curiosities.

Now you very generously.

I'm going to have it in the show notes, but you have created a bit of a.

It's not a checklist, but it's kind of an explanation of how parents can identify pain and what is actually quite serious.

We should really investigate this further.

What's less serious?

And also the story about the security guard.

So that's all, that's all going to be in the show notes.

So people feel free to download that and have a look at that because that's going to be just fantastic.

Thank you.

Now, is there anything, any other words of wisdom you could give to the mums who are listening?

Kind of any, Any tips that you wish you could give most mums when they walk in and you go, oh, I wish you knew that.

And then things would be different.

Is there one kind of tip that springs to mind?

Yeah.

Be, be calm for the first, just five or 10 seconds because you're going to want to react in a certain way too.

And that, that's.

That first five or ten seconds is not just for the child so they can figure it out.

It's also for yourself.

Because as our emotions, like our uncontrolled, primitive emotions go up, our intelligence usually goes down.

Yeah.

It's usually opposite directions.

So not only will you, will you be reflecting to your kid that they're.

Most times they're going to be okay.

This is just a learning experience.

They'll learn to self regulate, but you'll learn to self regulate in that, that small moment right there too.

You'll have a better go at it and you'll be able to give your kid better advice because you're not going to be so amped up, you know, yourself.

And that goes for moms and dads, you know, but, but, but, you know, we're talking to moms right now, so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we'll, we'll go with that.

So.

No, that's brilliant.

You know, it's funny, I was talking to, I've spoken to people who do sort of money mindset, budgeting and for them, their tips were also kind of mums, think about your calmness, think about your language around money.

And it's so interesting.

Again, that applies to kind of pain, illness.

Yeah, yeah, it's very interesting.

Okay.

Things to think about.

Ben, bless you.

Thank you.

Life and death and the power of the tongue.

Zoe.

Yeah, oh, yeah, very true, very true.

All right, thank you, Ben.

And I would like to say to all the listeners, thank you very much.

If you find that this has, you know, resonated, I believe is the technical term, please like share and subscribe because every little helps to get the word out to all the curious mums out there.

Thank you so much.

Until next time.

Love the podcast and want to help keep the kettle on.

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