Meet Steve O'Hear, Senior Vice President of Zapp, London’s premium on-demand convenience app, Founder of his very own advisory firm O'Hear & Co and was a journalist for 10+ years covering European tech at Techcrunch.

As you can see, Steve's a man of many hats and wears them damn well. So sit up, press play and pay attention. You can thank us later.

Steve's links:

tryzapp.com

ohearco.com

BWB is powered by Oury Clark

You are really nicely lined up with the bullshit.

Well, I cover it just perfectly do.

Yeah.

Like just in the middle of the bullshit.

Well, I'm on a mission to reduce my swearing since my wife's really well.

I'm just so unaware of it.

And, um, Yeah, apparently some people don't like swearing.

Who the fuck is that?

Quite right.

You know what I read recently is that, uh, when you hurt yourself, you cut yourself badly.

If you have a serious physical injury, swearing reduces the pain facts.

That's a fact.

So if you go like, fuck you, like your pain drops, it's like, so you know that's a real, you don't have to swear.

I, I imagine you could probably say Shit, I'm still a swear with, I know.

As you can see, Steve, it's quite a highbrow chat, so get ready.

Hello and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

I am Andy Orian, alongside me as my co-host, Pippa Stut.

Hi Andy.

Hello Pippa.

And today we are joined by Steve O here.

Steve is a man or who wears many hats and that much is true, and he's wearing an excellent hat.

Right now, senior Vice President of Zap London's Premium on demand convenience app to being an angel investor and startup advisor to.

Every founding person you can think of.

And now he's even founding his very own advisory firm, which I'm sure we'll get into.

Steve, welcome to the podcast.

How you doing?

I'm good, thanks.

And so, Steve, Steve, Steve, we always like to, uh, always like to ask what's keeping you up at night at the moment?

Well, actually just related, I've just flown some brand.

New business, um, oh, here in co a strategic communications firm, four people, so four employees off the back and, um, we put in some initial clients, but yeah, serving those clients and find a great product.

Was it quite nail biting to actually take the plunge and kind of jump off the end of the pier as it were and actually do it?

We, we managed assigned clients before we launched and um, and this is alongside my, my sort of main job at Zap.

So having two hats on, quite intense.

But, um, when I think we signed.

One of our anchor clients on Christmas day.

On Christmas day.

Wait, do you rang them?

They rang you who, who rings who on Christmas day?

Well, it's all, it's all, it's all asynchronous now, isn't it?

They sent over the contract as a, as a dosign or something, and I signed it on Christmas Day.

Ah, okay.

Very nice.

Yeah.

Okay.

There was no, no, you didn't mess up their Brussels sprouts.

That would be poor form, I feel, you know.

No, no, no.

It was definitely me not having a Christmas.

I'm sure they were.

Having an amazing time.

And so tell us, explain this business, because it sounds like it's some sort of novel approach to comms, which I assume is pr, isn't it?

Or, you know, I mean, that's, that's probably upsets you, but, you know, get, get, let's, let's get the shape of what we're talking about here.

You know, as a, as a, as an ex journalist, I spent 10, 15 years saying bad things about people in pr.

It's definitely, yeah.

And rightly so.

Continue.

Yeah, no.

So, um, look, one of the jobs I do at Zap as, as SVP strategy is I, I helped build out the initial in-house promise team sets everything from like internal communications.

That's how companies speak to their own people internally, you know, to align around.

Yeah.

Company goals, company all hands.

To kind of managing risk.

So that is where actors call it, is kind of providing EQ for business, emotional intelligence for business, right?

Especially in tech business, often pushing up against, you know, a, a way of doing things and trying to change.

Right.

Eq, eq, emotional intelligence.

What do you mean, eq?

Yeah, that's right.

Like, you know, putting, um, company policies and strategy through, through the lens of how would this play out.

With the wider public or various stakeholders.

Right.

So it's about aligning a company's strategy in the way it decides to do things and decisions it makes, and just sense checking, right?

Like how would that play out?

Is that the right thing to do?

Uh, is it a short term?

Um, accomplishment versus long term damage.

So's just trying to zoom me out and I'll see.

When you're a journalist, you know, you are providing the checks and balances, right?

For society, for companies.

Part of journalism is holding, you know, power to account.

What is it?

Make the comfortable, uncomfortable, and comfort the uncomfortable or something was there.

There was, right.

Exactly.

And if, and if you can do that for your ceo, like internally for the lens coms, then you can potentially affect, like the way a company does things and, and the perfect tapes.

With that longer term thinking that I think you can do from a strategic communications point of view, especially with my background in journalism.

So in put this amazing in-house team of commerce people, yeah.

We did internal coms, uh, sort of risk management sort of ESG stuff.

Also headed up sustainability.

We put sustainability team at Zap and then obviously you said pr of course part of it is external communications or press.

Um, but having that more holistic.

To end up approach.

It's something we've done amazingly well at sap, largely in-house, have used some PR agencies to add extra fire power, and now I've taken some of that team and spun it out into a new venture out here in co offering a similar kind of product or service to a select few other companies alongside Zap of course.

So yeah, that's, that's my new, my new thing.

So presumably Zap are totally happy with you doing this.

Yeah, no funny word because that's what's been great about the way we've done it is that we're still, we, you know, Zapp is still one of our clients.

We're still working with, in fact, I still retain the title of SB SP strategy, so nothing in inside Zapp has changed.

It's like we've been been able to provide a hundred percent consistency but take on some of digital clients.

So it's quite an unusual thing to do.

I think it shows great, you know, great credit to Zap and, and the team that's come with me.

To do this.

It's working out fantastic, and we've got some great other clients in addition to Zap.

And yeah, we're, we're signing on more as we, as we grow and scale.

I mean, senior Vice President of strategy as Zap suggests that you are, to me, dealing with the strategy of their product, which is, you know, on online ordering like, um, grillers and Getz and one of, one of them bought, the other gorillas got bought.

By someone, was it by Zapp?

It got brought No, no, no.

Get, get, get It.

Which always looks like a nice land at yogurt to me.

But anyway.

Um, but the, you, you senior, the vice president of strategy.

I mean, what's really interesting and what you're saying is that a PR company would basically deals with journalists and get stuff in magazines and has to try and work out what they're saying and fit the thing in, you know, but that doesn't include internal comms.

And actually when you.

Take a step back even further.

The only person I can think of in, in a, in a good business who's kind of in a stu in a technology company or something, you know, as if we think of the startup universe, is the CEO's sort of responsible for the vision and the comms.

So he's responsible, she is, for setting this, you know, what is, what is, what is the story of the company where, and then, and then you sort of have HR who's sort of responsible internally and then a PR company who's pushing it on the external.

Is that kind of your point?

It's like, As a journalist, there's a subtlety to how these stories play out and humans like stories and they need beginnings, middles, and end, and what people consume, and that works internally or externally.

So rather than having a c e o set, a a voice or a vision, it's like have someone who, who works out what the story is internally and externally.

Am I talking bollocks?

Is this Yeah.

No, no, no.

You, no.

You're kind of in the right.

You're in a sweet spot.

At the end of the day, it's about looking at comms as a holistic.

Approach, right?

So you have various different stakeholders.

Those stakeholders are employees, they're future hires, they're perhaps investors.

They could be regulators, and then there's the press and the general public, right?

And these are all stakeholders in a, in a business, um, in, in the general sense.

So what, yeah, you absolutely nailed it.

What I've done at Z is worked very closely with the, with the founders, the c e O.

So I report directly into the c e and I'm part of the, the leadership team and just using that comm's perspective.

To ensure that the strategy, um, is communicated in the right way, but also doing it in reverse using comms or those checks and balances to ensure that we also have the right strategy.

So as I like to say, you can't have great communications without the right strategy, and you can't execute the right strategy without great communications.

Yeah, I mean, I think we can all think of examples of startup businesses that have been doing great guns, but have just got their.

Comms or their strategy slightly wrong.

Yeah.

And it all go, you know, BrewDog is a great example of that.

That's had terrible press and PR has it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because you know, there are a few people saying it's miserable working here and, and Oh right.

Yeah.

That doesn't go well.

And, but you know, that's the part of it came out of this whole sort of vision from the give them, from the founder who was like, we play hard, we work hard, we, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's gone a little bit wrong.

And having somebody like, like Steve in there, who's gonna, who knows the dark arts of the journalistic world, you know, you know, understands where the levers are.

You know, don't I'll call my mate Roger.

This all go away in a minute.

I trust, you know, I mean, if Lee Anderson had had somebody to say, don't tweet what he tweeted today.

You know, you are always up to date with the Twitter.

Have you not seen this?

I, I, I barely got to the toilet today.

You know what the, one of the things I find in interesting in, in this statement you're making, because it's something I I try and work out hard at here is, is the internal comms bit.

You know, internal comms is almost more important than anything.

It's like, and for me, you know, I have to look after the marketing.

So for me, marketing is obviously a big word that no one really understands, that isn't PR and isn't sales.

Although some people think it is, it's str.

It's like, who is our market and how do we communicate with 'em?

So I don't even use the word correctly, but.

It's just knocking around as an easy word, but also on a more positive tip.

It's like we are doing all this stuff, but we're all so busy at the front, but we gotta tell everybody internally all the time of what we're doing.

But here's the thing, they don't really care, a lot of them.

Because they've got lives.

It's just a job, you know?

I mean, sure they care.

They care about the firm, they care about their job.

But, you know, so it's a really difficult balance into trying to sort of bring everyone with you without smothering them or being like, you know, this isn't, we're not a start.

You know, you do get startups where you kind of.

Sign up to it, you kind of say, right, you know, the original founding team, you're never gonna have any holidays for four years and we're gonna go for it.

But, you know, most businesses, there's a good proportion of people who just wanna do their job and maybe be left alone.

So I find internal comms as fascinatingly difficult as external comms, you know?

Yeah, no, no, absolutely.

Um, and there's often isn't a, a single way of doing internal problems, right?

There's, there's kind of like somewhere on the spectrum between being.

Like, some companies like to be a hundred percent transparent internally and share everything.

Yeah.

And then at the other end, companies tend to wanna hold back product launches and not give their, their, their teams too much sort of forward clicking perspective on what, what's coming up in the business figure on like, you know, apple, right.

Apple super secretive.

Sorry.

Okay.

Um, but at the end of the day, the reason why internal films is so important is people need context.

If you want people to align behind company goals, and sometimes even when a company pivots and changes direction, whether that be overall, but even just on a kind of product where product or certain company, you know, internal plays, right?

If you don't provide teams with context, it's very hard for people to get behind something.

And also, in the world of startups, and startups, you are asking people to accept and embrace a certain amount of uncertainty.

That's the nature, you know, company's trying something new.

It's never been done before, trying to disrupt an in existing market.

And if people accept uncertainty, that's like quite unnerving.

That can be unaccepting.

It's not for everybody, but if you're able to in, uh, communicate internally and provide context and a clear vision and mission and, and show how we get there, right?

Even if.

The way we get there is gonna change.

Okay?

Cuz it's a startup or a scale up, then people are much more willing to, you know, to engage and be productive and, and, and get behind the company.

And that has all sorts of tangible consequences.

It's not about making people feel good, everyone's happy.

It's about things like retention, right?

Lowering attrition.

It's about, um, allowing people to develop their careers, right?

And grow and learn.

And that in turn contributes to the company.

I mean, as I like to say.

The best companies set people up for, for success, right?

And good internal problems.

Providing that context and, and ensuring your continued align your people around those company goals in a way that they can appreciate, especially when you have to change course, um, is super, super important.

I think that's, it is great.

You say it's not, there's no wrong and right between transparency and secrecy.

It's all about giving people enough context to be motivated to do what they want to do.

I think that is terribly important.

I mean, we deal with that all the time, you know, because as accountants and lawyers, you'll be someone junior will be all in the detail and then you're like, they don't know what the company does or whatever.

And, and even though that information isn't really necessarily that relevant to the specific thing, you know, you.

Do this, add this up, whatever.

It's that context of who you are working for and what the business does and, you know, why are we working with them or something is, is hugely valuable.

But the thing I found interesting was you, you said you should set people up to success.

That's one of those statements like from America, which annoys me.

It's just like, well, what does it mean?

You know, put them in a nice chair, you know, like, but I mean, I guess my question means is like, set people up to success.

What are the, what elements would you advise a business are crucial to set someone up to access context.

Yeah, context is super important.

Um, and clarity, clarity, clarity in the instruction of what they need to do, or they're like really well defined communications.

So what I mean was like if you are really clear with people and, and you, and you take the extra effort to ensure that the message is quite narrow and precise, what it needs to be, and then it's more high level, you know, on different topics.

So yeah, I think context inferity is what people want the most.

And as I say in the startup data world, you are literally asking people to embrace uncertainty, which sounds like the opposite of clarity.

Like we can tell you where we want to go, but we can't quite tell you exactly how we're gonna get there or if we know how we're gonna get there.

That may change because of externalities.

We've seen this very recently, right?

With the, with the market downturn and the way, you know, venture capital is dried up well, suddenly it's so hard to raise money.

Yeah.

All these businesses are running on empty, you know, I mean, I think, I think another thing as well, particularly with startups, there's an element of.

As a founder setting an example of what you are aiming for.

So a really good example of that is innocent.

All those years ago when Innocent Smoothies started, so many of their initial sort of staff, probably about 10 to 20 of them in the end, spun out and did their own startups, and that some of that must have been seeing the way the founders of those business worked.

And sort of how they created a startup and how they made it a success.

Made other people wanna do it too.

Yeah.

Plus they had share options and they made a few quids, so they kind of have to, but, but you know, I think watching somebody else, the way somebody else does it well yeah, yeah.

Helps other people learn how to do it themselves.

And also if you, if you cultivate that sort of entrepreneurial spirit within your company, Then obviously eventually you're gonna lose some great ambitious people, but that's gonna be right for them, and that's the right move.

And I don't think there really, there aren't really any downsides to that.

You'd rather have people that can think naturally and solve problems, even if eventually they're gonna cut on, they wanna be their own boss or Yeah, certain percentage of them, like, I mean, that's absolutely fine, but going back to the pushback about setting people up to see it, it's not just about good comms, it's also about focusing on how you can get the most out of.

People in your teams.

And so an example I always give is, you know, people get very sort of caught up in the sort of diversity and inclusion debate, right?

Mm-hmm.

And they kind of focus on the diversity and not enough on the inclusion.

And if you take, when I, I've told this story many times publicly, but when I first left journalism, you know, I had a great job at Tech Runs, very high profile, um, new site that covers startups, right?

Um, and I made this move to then go operational again and join sap.

Um, And it's in its first year.

I had to have a very honest conversation with the CEO founder, that as someone with a disability, I would need to primarily work from home and that I would need to be in charge of my own schedule.

And it, if you did that, you would get absolute maximum productivity out of me.

Right.

And so that's took a slight reasonable why guess leader, they would call a reasonable adjustment.

Right.

But what it actually did is it set me up to SEC succeed and, and then I, you know, I was.

VP and I've been promoted to SVP as well as I've been able to do these other things.

Right.

So that's what I mean.

It's about thinking about kind of all of these issues around company culture and things like d and i and, and really getting back to that kind of, um, that first principle of how can you set every single team member out to succeed because who faces seed individually, you will succeed as a company.

And I think the other thing that I, I think I've learned over the years and particularly, Uh, zap is that if you can create a culture where you're judged more on the results of your work and less on how you've got those results, as long as you can measure them.

But yeah, the productivity sort of, if you could, if you can work it, it's such an in interesting mathematical model we're setting up.

Cause it's like, you know, what are the inputs, what are the outputs?

Measure on the outputs?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, but, but this is a business without bullshit for, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you know what?

If you can't measure it, the job probably doesn't even need to exist.

Like, like yeah, like, you know, to a certain, you know, to a certain degree of people.

Overcomplicate business.

Okay.

Yeah.

They overcomplicate the way we get things done.

Like, you know, at the end of the day there are, there are, I've seen this across lots of companies.

There are areas that companies do and don't ask me to name when it gets too contentious, because I think it's different for different companies, but there's sometimes areas where you think, How does that project, how does that job, even that job role, how does that move the needle for the business?

Right.

And you, if you have the wrong culture and, and you hire wrongly, you tend to create jobs where it doesn't really ladder up to a business job.

Or people go off on a tangent and they do things that are like, literally, there isn't even a dotted line to like what the business goals are.

Right.

And so if you, there's still full circle back to Tom's.

I've had conversations with founders and CEOs or their marketing teams where they say, Steve, like, really want your help, wanna raise the profile of the founder, wanna get them on the speaking circuit, or whatever.

Right?

And I'm like, what for?

Like what's the business role?

That ladder, and they'll, and this is like big companies in that eight.

Oh, we've never actually asked that question.

He just loves himself.

You know, he told us to do it.

So basically you are, you are saying, and I, I think this is what your agency offers, which is terribly convenient, but companies need someone like you at the table who's not the finance guy.

You know, who's not, this isn't marketing and it's not the external PR company.

You occasionally get a free lunch out of.

It's someone at the table saying, I, I'm trying to work out how this message goes through, you know?

And that's, I think that's a great point.

It's like the new role and, and actually probably because you're an agency and that suggests.

To me from Zap, it's the kind of role that is quite consultancy, a bit like an accountant, for instance, someone you might need to see once a week if it's a busy business and they're evolved heavily, but it's not necessarily someone you need there every day because they, you know, it's strategic thinking that they need to go away and think about and then come back into your business and say, so is, is that fair?

You sort of, you turn up at the board, is it?

Yeah, I mean we, we, we typically work on a retainer basis and different clients have.

Greater or lesser needs.

And you're absolutely right.

And the right, you know, at the entry level, I'm working with a venture capital firm where we're only doing, I think it's like a couple of days a month, right?

When a retainer, and they'll just be sense checking their, their common strategy and also trying to figure out, you know, how they can sort of differentiate their narrative or whatever, right?

It's sort of pretty bread and bar stuff and they just need a bit of input from, from someone like me and, and the team that I've put together.

And then at the other end of the spectrum, We've got several clients where we do all of their internal proms, press office and then that strategy stuff around sense checking decisions and, and the way things are communicated to ensure that there's no, um, no, you know, reduce the downsides.

And increase the upsides, right.

So it's so exactly your point.

So yeah, it's a, it's a range, but, um, it's, yeah, it's great.

It is a fun job cuz it's really fun challenging people's thinking and having that.

That accumulative of knowledge and kind of instinct just to be able to sense check things super, super quick and actually the bit that people never understand about comms, cuz they always call it PR is really, really good comms.

When there's buy-in from the leadership of these companies, you do get to affect the decisions.

There's a lot of job satisfaction from using the power of comms to affect change.

It's, it is probably where the, you know, where the most satisfaction comes from, which isn't about stopping things.

It's, uh, actually about having, helping companies navigate and do things in a, in a better way so that, because the idea is you don't, you should never need to go out into the press and defend something awful that something awful should never happen in the first place.

And now a quick word from our sponsor.

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Now back to the chat.

So this is bullshit question time.

Um, I dunno if you've got one, but is there anything that you think is bullshit or is bus Well, it, you know, people talk about like, it's business but it's really bullshit.

Or, you know, people think it's bullshit, but it is business and, you know, like office dogs, uh, any, any subject for us?

I think many people overcomplicate business.

Hmm.

So complication is bullshit.

Yeah.

Just kind of to over, it's like over intellectualizing something that actually is quite straightforward.

But yeah, I just, I, I think that about a lot of things though in terms of this over intellectualization rate around things that actually are pretty simple.

When you sort of brought it down, it's, well, like kind of first principle thinking, which is like, actually if you take this stop, you stop and you think, what the hell are we trying to achieve here?

And often you'll see teams and projects sort of lose track of that.

I think it's quite funny how quickly collectively, groups of human beings sort of lose a sense of what it is they're trying to achieve in the first place.

Yeah, you obviously have a good mind for it and you, you alluded to it earlier cuz you said stuff about, you know, you, you gotta be lateral thinker and a problem solver.

I think that's quite an interesting statement because I don't think that's something you get to choose lateral thinking and problem solving.

It tends to be dyslexics who are more.

Picture orientating and lateral thinkers.

So better A, they take longer to get it together and can't read it.

But once they get it in their head, then now, now that's just one group of people.

There'll be other groups of people who, you know, all brains work all sorts of differently.

But I would say it's a minority of people who can think laterally.

I, I think, I don't know.

Yeah, I dunno.

I'm not that one.

But sometimes when people say al thinking they actually mean like, take a step back, but reduce the problem down to its core.

And then that opens up.

A certain amount of right clarity overnight.

Do you want me, does that make any sense?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

You don't, you don't have to turn it on his head.

Maybe you just need to step back about what it is.

Yeah.

Step back and try and simplify the problem You should do like a toilet book.

I always feel that you are gonna, you'd have like five questions whenever you stepping back.

You need to ask yourself, you know, why are we doing it?

Who are we doing it for?

Whether, you know, whatever.

Yes.

And that, and just answer those questions honestly, and you'll know what to do or you'll know what you're looking at, at least.

I also think that sometimes the thing you have to do is make a decision.

I think people are really good at just talking round things forever and never actually going, let's just do x.

So this is our quickfire questions.

This is when we are going to ask you a list of questions to get to know you a little better.

You've got about five seconds to answer each question.

Not really.

Five seconds.

You can take as long as you like.

No, no, you can't.

You can't.

New rules.

Oh, new rules.

New rules.

Okay, sorry.

At the end, we may pick up on some of these answers and interrogate further and we will not delay during the quick far restaurant restaurants.

What's going on with these words.

Anyway, dechy, the music.

Are we ready?

Uh, we're off.

Biba.

What was your first job?

My first job, so I said I couldn't get a job, so my first gig was I started a web design partnership with my mate from school.

Cool.

Don't ask more.

Don't ask more.

What was your worst job?

Probably the words I'm partners.

You.

Favorite subject at school.

It was actually media studies, which sound so, so sad.

And that's not a subject.

Both my parents were English teachers and I used to say how much I hate, hate English like media, which then when I ended up writing for a living, was somewhat ironic.

Again, I'm just not gonna ask more questions, which I have.

Um, what's your special skill?

I mean, I wanna say communications, but it's probably, um, you're all right.

Probably saying, probably saying it is, is.

Actually, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

So at first I wanted to work in advertising, but one of my neighbors was like a member of the Communist Party and he put me out of there.

That's what I wanted to do.

You ever watched a film?

Crazy People?

I love that film.

Crazy People.

Anyway, I've done it.

Sorry.

I got a massive, massive, mad, mad Madman fan.

Oh, and then, and then I wanted to be a journalist and then this is, I wanna do this, I'm gonna the five second version.

So I was gonna study journalism at university, but the course I wanted to do, they made every student go and work at the local paper and the local papers up a Friday stairs.

So I didn't study journalism and that's how I ended up not being a journalist until I became a journalist.

Guys.

Brilliant.

I love these.

Um, anyway, what did your parents want you to be?

I don't think they really care.

They just wanted me to, to get a job and move off home.

Okay.

I thought you were gonna say they just wanted me to be happy, but No, they just wanted you to fuck off basically.

Yeah, basically, yeah.

My dad, my dad's, my dad said to me, he said, he said, you can go to university.

Anywhere you like in the country, the world, as long as it's not anywhere near London, what's, what's your go-to karaoke song?

So, I actually hate karaoke because I, I used to play in, I used to play in quite a serious band, or at least a band that took itself seriously.

And we were upstages.

We were upstages by a karaoke machine at a party.

Okay, this one is important.

I need a certain guest.

He's asleep.

Is he not asleep?

Paul, the dog.

He's asleep.

Don't choose your asser carefully to this one.

Steve, I'll just warm you up.

Uh, office dogs, business or bullshit?

I'm gonna say business, but I was dinner anyway.

It's quite your prop.

Romeo looks so unimpressed by the whole thing with the sign.

Yeah.

I need little photo of that.

Anyway, we'll have to do that later.

Nice one.

Sorry about that.

Have you ever been fired, Steve?

I have, I have, yeah.

Write that down.

Write that down.

He's been fired.

Not many people have.

Excellent word.

Burger.

I was fired.

I was fired.

Over, over.

Text message.

There you go.

Really?

That's harsh.

Yeah.

I did once dump somebody over.

Text message.

I know where it goes.

And then say, call me later.

Uh, what's your vice?

What's my vice?

I think it's probably, um, Probably working.

That's a good advice.

It's fair enough.

That is the kind of kind of answer that you get when you ask somebody in a job interview.

Yes.

What's your advice?

I just worked too much.

Yeah, just too committed.

Okay.

So this is where we give you 30 seconds to pitch.

Probably your new company or whatever else you'd like to pitch.

So I'm gonna pitch, well, I'm gonna pitch my album as well.

So yeah, go and check out my album, LTIs max.com.

It's, it's really sad, it's got like six missings a month or something, so please, please up that.

And, um, if you, if you are a startup, stand up and you need some strategic communication device.

Uh, hit me up on Twitter.

S o here, or check out, oh here, ko.com.

Brilliant, brilliant.

Just trying to find a stopwatch, but I've got a new watch, so fucking find a stopwatch.

I believe that was 27 seconds.

That's it.

Fantastic.

Uh, we will all be checking out your album and there you have it.

That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit and we will be back with Bwb Extra on Thursday.