As tariffs and the transnational flow of goods are dominating political debates, Dean Sarah Banet-Weiser takes a look at the cross-border flow of media with Annenberg professor Aswin Punathambekar and assistant professor Juan Llamas Rodriguez. Punathambekar also directs the Center for Advanced Research in Global Research, where Llamas is associate director. 

In this episode, we will look at how global media systems are regulated, how digital borders operate, the role of infrastructures, and more.

Sarah Banet-Weiser: Hi there.

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Welcome to season two of the podcast

series, Annenberg Conversations hosted

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by me, Sarah Banet-Weiser, the Dean of

the Annenberg School for Communication.

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This podcast series focuses on the

incredible research that is being

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conducted here at the Annenberg School.

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And in this season, we are going to

explore how information flows are

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being shaped and changed in a time of

transnational complexities and global

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media flows of increased platformization

of journalism and climate communication.

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So today we are going to talk about global

communication and global media flows.

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I remember years ago when I would teach

about global media, it would be things

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like whether or not there was a McDonald's

in France or a telenovela that sort of

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transferred over to the United States.

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Needless to say, in the current

moment with all the different media

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platforms and digital culture, we

have a whole new understanding of what

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global communication and global media.

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Is so today we're so, so happy to

have two of my wonderful colleagues

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here at the Annenberg School.

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Aswin Punathambekar, who is the director

of the Center for Advanced Research and

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Global Communication, and a professor here

at Annenberg and Juan Llamas-Rodriguez.

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Who is the associate director of the

Center for Advanced Research and Global

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Communication, and also, an assistant

professor here at the Annenberg School.

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So thank you both so much for coming.

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I'll let you, uh, explain a little

bit more about what you're working

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on now before I get into questions.

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Aswin Punathambekar:

Thank you for having us.

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This is an exciting topic

to be thinking about.

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hi everybody.

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This is Aswin Punathambekar.

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My research and teaching focuses

on media and cultural change with a

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focus on, the workings of the media

industries, the circulation of media

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texts from films and television programs

to memes and social media stories

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across political borders, and how

those dynamics shape the way we think

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about culture, identity, and politics.

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And I do all that by looking at.

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Three regions, uh, south

Asia, the uk, and the us.

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Juan Llamas-Rodriguez: yes,

thank you for having us.

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I'm Juan Llamas-Rodriguez.

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and my research similarly explores the

relationship between media and borders.

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The connection between both of them.

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So both how media affects our perception

of borders and migration and how

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borders in the world affect which

media we get access to, and how we

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get to relate to that media as well.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: Great.

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Okay, so I think we should just dive in.

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Um, you know, to kind of reiterate

what I was saying before, global

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media has really changed definition

over the past several decades.

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as you know, borders have been

diffused and dissolved, and digital

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culture has allowed us to, you

know, circulate media across.

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Actual borders and create new

digital borders in the process.

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So when we say a kind of cross

border flow of media, what are

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we really talking about in 2025?

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What are we talking about when we're,

thinking about things like platforms,

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where media's, plates, streaming formats

of play, fandoms, files, infrastructures,

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how do we even think about global media

in this particular historical moment?

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Is it right to think in

terms of all media as global?

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Should we even define it as something that

is different than other forms of media?

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Aswin Punathambekar: Yeah, I think

that's a great place to start.

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I mean, I think it's always good to

remind ourselves that media from the

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material things themselves that go

into making media from film stock to

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recording equipment to television sets.

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To creative and business talent financing.

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And of course the media objects

themselves, they've always

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been transnational in nature.

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Right.

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And audiences and in particular fan

practices have been such an important part

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of this story, be it, uh, a distributor,

in Lebanon working to bring Indian

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firms into Nigeria or young American

teenagers learning Japanese and subtitling

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things to bring anime into the United

States in the eighties and nineties.

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Media.

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Played such an important role in shaping

national cultures in all sorts of ways,

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but I think we have to be careful then

because of that story, we don't have

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to stay within the boundaries, the

political borders of nation states.

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So in many ways there's a

deep historical continuity.

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That's at play here, even in

our current sort of digital era.

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But then at every moment of

technological change and the kinds

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of geopolitical, shifts we are going

through now, things do shift, right?

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And so we have to account for what's

the continuity, but what's also

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distinct about this current moment.

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And I think the phenomenal impact

that digital infrastructures,

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platforms, and most importantly, all

the smartphone wielding audiences and

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users that define our world today.

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That combined impact of all of those

things, I think is gonna shape the

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way we think about cross-border flows.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: Yeah, it's interesting

because thinking about this question at

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this particular moment when it feels like

there is a sort of retraction of that

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sort of global flow, that porousness of

borders and instead, something that is

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much more focused on the nation state,

that it'll be, an interesting thing to

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see what happens in the coming years

to, global media flows when you have

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heads of state who are going to be

putting restrictions on whether or not

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media can actually traverse borders.

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And then that, I'm sure will,

kind of motivate a lot of, ways

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around those, state restrictions.

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So it's a perfect time to be

talking about this, I think.

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Juan Llamas-Rodriguez: Yeah.

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one thing that I always

insist on is not only that.

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All media can be thought of

as global media, but that

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media has always been global.

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I think we think about a lot

right now because we're all

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always on the internet 24 7.

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But you go back to the 1920s and

Mexican radio was being heard

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on us, stations, for example.

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so traversing the border that was set

up, but yeah, would still be able to.

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To be heard.

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So I think one of the key things that

I like to think about is what is making

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this historical moment different?

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is there a significant change or

is it more of a matter of degree?

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and there's a number of things.

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So one is the sort of acceleration of

how quickly we get access to media from

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around the world, changes our relationship

to it, changes how we respond to it.

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Changes who gets access to

it in, specific moments.

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And there's also the convergence,

the, in some ways the computer

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does change how we think about

media because suddenly everything,

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we can see it on the same screen.

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some of the distinctions of a film

is something you only go see a in

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a theater versus a TV show is the

thing that you watch on that box in

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your home are a little more blurry.

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So even the borders of what a medium

is have changed significantly when

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everything can be accessed on the sort of.

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Technology that you hold

in your hand, for example.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: so I think,

that's super interesting.

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And now we also know that Juan is on

the internet 24 7 because that's how

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he introduced this, uh, this comment.

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Um, um, but I also, I can, can I

just ask you something that you

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just said about Mexican, music being

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what is the relationship between.

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what both of you work on in terms

of media, borders and global

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flows of media and diasporic

media within a particular country.

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Like what is the connection

between Mexican radio that is

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being transmitted from Mexico?

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In the 1920s and Mexican music that is

being created, produced, and performed in,

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let's say East Los Angeles in the 1920s.

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Is that, is that also a form of, would

you consider that a form of global media?

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Juan Llamas-Rodriguez: Absolutely.

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I think the sort of Mexican

American example is very helpful.

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I mean the sort of famous refrain

of, we didn't cross the border.

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The border cross us, gets us to think

about the historical, nature of borders

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that they're not set themselves.

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And so when we think about media

practices, those not only move across

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borders, but sometimes the border

moves across the practices themselves.

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So something like Mexican

music being played in Los

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Angeles has a long historical.

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Locally specific practice.

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that even if the place itself

changes its affiliation with a

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nation, for example, those practices

continue, in different ways.

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and people move.

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So when people move, they bring

their media practices as well.

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and people when they move, they

also feel a connection to the

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place that they've left behind.

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And media creates a really

strong bond in that sense.

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So, um, film, music, television shows

from someone's country of origin now

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still bring that connection even if

physically people are not able to go back.

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Aswin Punathambekar: Yeah,

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I think that's the really crucial point

here is that we have to avoid somehow

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thinking that we can map political

borders and the rejection of certain

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kinds of movement onto media flows, right?

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So I remember this distinctly.

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If you go back to another

really fraught political moment,

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this was right after nine 11.

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I was a master's student and I spent

six months doing an ethnographic project

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with 12 South Asian American families in

the New York, New Jersey, Boston area.

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I was spending just weekends with them,

hanging out at their homes, watching

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things that they would watch and so on.

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And this was at a time when just

immediately after the terrorist

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attacks, a lot of South Asian Americans

are feeling really vulnerable as

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surveillance policing was cracking down.

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Uh, visa regimes were being changed,

the Patriot Act, and so on and so forth.

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But there was this incredible.

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Media scene at the same time, which

ranged from Bollywood producers in Mumbai

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thinking actively about cultivating

the North American diaspora as market.

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It also involved grassroots

media productions.

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There's a vibrant DJ scene called

Basement PRA in New York, which

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then brought in other generations.

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So I think to be

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Careful that even as we think through

political borders, geopolitical

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shifts, and state policies, there's

also this disjuncture when it

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comes to cultural commodities.

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everything from grocery stores, moving

media to people themselves on the move,

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bringing media with them, how that then

creates a new kind of cultural space that

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both exceeds, but is still in a fraught

relationship with other forces, including

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the state, the market, and so on.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: Yeah.

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I think that's a really important

point, that when we talk about

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borders, I mean, when we even use the

word borders, it immediately calls

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to mind a kind of delineated, line.

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Like there's one side of the border

and the other side of the border.

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But actually what you're both

saying is that borders are not only.

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Porous and they have been for many, many

years, not just with the advent of digital

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culture, but that borders themselves

are redrawn and reun misunderstood,

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depending on cultural context, not just

commodities, but something like nine 11.

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That changes the way in which we

understand what a border is and

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whether or not we can cross it.

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Something like what's happening now with

increased ice raids and deportations

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changes what we understand as the

border and that will change necessarily

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the kind of media that is produced

to not only document that, but also

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media that is produced that kind of

emerges from these moments of cultural.

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sort of marginalization and dissonance.

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Right.

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Um, and so I guess, my next question,

it kind of, continues from that.

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If you have digital streaming services

like Amazon Prime or Netflix or any

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of them that often, produce shows that

are designed for a particular region.

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But then they become available we can see

shows from all over the world on Netflix.

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Right.

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And then when I go to, somewhere outside

the us whether that's, in the global

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south or in Europe or in Canada, your

Netflix, whatever your app is, what

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is available changes for you as well.

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So do you think that these

streaming services have.

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Created a format for different

kinds of storytelling, and if they

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have, what is the kind of difference

that makes a difference there?

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How is the storytelling that we're

experiencing now as consumers, as

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participants, as citizens, how is

that storytelling different because

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of global streaming services?

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Juan Llamas-Rodriguez:

It's a great question.

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my answer to that question

is usually yes and no.

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So the advent of these kinds of streamers.

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Has opened doors for different kinds

of storytelling, up to an extent.

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so for example, Netflix has been

producing original content for

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Mexico for over a decade now.

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Uh, the first one was in 2015, and

you see a shift from the first few

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originals really trying to push

the form in different ways, aiming

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for genres that were normally not

as popular in Mexican television.

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and then 10 years later

we see a going back to the

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traditional genres, in some way.

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So it doesn't.

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It opens up some new possibilities

at the same time that it finds the

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things that have already been, there

before and replicates them as well.

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And same with who gets

access to these tools.

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we get, especially from the industry side

at the beginning of a say, new platform,

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or a new venture, is this idea of what

is it that they're disrupting or what

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is it that they're bringing in new?

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And for a while this had

to do a lot with diversity.

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And assuming that the new platforms

are gonna allow all sorts of

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minorities formerly excluded groups

in the industry to have access to it.

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and that hasn't pan out in the way that

I think was celebrated as much initially.

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So we kind of see this back and forth

where there is, some opening new of

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those doors to possibility and then

they're very quickly foreclosed.

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and we get settled into a sort of

similar kind of way of media production.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: yeah,

it seems, it seems like.

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not to be overly conventional about

it, but, the digital and the digital

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landscape, like any other medium of

communication from the telegraph to radio,

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to television, to film, comes with it.

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a certain kind of dystopic and utopic

understanding of what it can do.

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Right.

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It's always, you know, it's gonna

open up, it's going to, shatter all

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sorts of barriers and create this

global culture, or it's going to,

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kind of retrench those global borders.

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And I think it sounds like

it's, or at least in my

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experience, it's a bit of both.

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Right.

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Aswin Punathambekar: think I would agree.

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Yeah, it is a bit of both and.

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One way to start would be to say,

well, how is it that Netflix and

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Prime Video decided to go global?

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Which is once they hit a certain ceiling

in the US market, how did they think

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about various regions and local markets?

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Say maybe in the UK with its very

strong public service broadcasting

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history or in a place like India

with its immense range of languages.

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And I think we are beginning to get some

research now that shows that some of the

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biggest beneficiaries of the streaming

video moment, like you said, Sarah.

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Our production companies with

already deep roots in these

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established media industries, right?

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So key producers, key directors, the

marquee stars, they can quickly leverage

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their existing networks and begin

reorienting what they do, their business

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practices to meet this new sort of stream

of capital financing and this promise

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of saying you can now do new things that

you couldn't possibly with theatrical

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distribution or cable television, right?

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So that's one piece of it.

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I think there have been some

sectors within these industries who

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managed to find new opportunities.

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And I think writers and some, actor

acting talent has really benefited,

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in different markets around the world.

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But when it comes to storytelling,

I think the picture becomes really

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much more layered and complex.

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And I'll give you one example

may be from the Indian case.

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So there's now just in the last.

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Three or four years, there's been a

proliferation of screen stories that

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feature a range of queer characters,

plot lines, and dramatic twists,

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which is wonderful and it sparked all

kinds of important conversations, but.

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This is also happening at a time

when India is in the grip of a

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powerful right-wing political regime,

one that is deeply conservative.

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this is a government that is clamping

down on the same streaming platforms

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when they show, for example, a political

map of South Asia, which the Indian

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government doesn't like given its

contestations on the border and so on.

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So.

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Queer stories seem to be okay as long

as they can be folded into a larger

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narrative of India being a hin nation.

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But if the stories begin crossing

over just ever so slightly, if

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they cross over into, let's say, an

inter-religious love story or an inter

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castro romance, then they struggle.

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So I think we have to be careful about

claims we make about disruption or, like

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Juan said, these industry terms about

innovation and entrepreneurship, we have

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to be cautious about how we deploy them

because like you said, Sarah, in every

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moment of change there have been these

breathless claims, and then 10 years later

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they settle into a new kind of normal.

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And that's where our research comes in.

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We begin to see what

these complexities are.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: Yeah, I mean I think

that also how you started this, comment.

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Really bears repeating, which is kind of

like, remember to follow the money, right?

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Follow the money.

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These are the, it, it isn't that

Netflix was like, well, you know what?

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We should just be a global

company and just, invite all these

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different global perspectives.

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They're looking for markets,

they're finding the markets, and

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then they're exploiting them like,

all for-profit media companies do.

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So I think that, thinking

about the sort of capitalist.

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infrastructure of global media

is always, really important.

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That said, if I could just push on one

point about the digital, which is that.

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Because so much of media production

is now in the hands of everyday

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consumers, like, not completely.

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Obviously you just gave this great

example of, the kind of state

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government coming in to say, no,

those stories aren't acceptable.

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But you also know that Fans and,

and consumers are creating their own

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media, it could be a disruption, it

doesn't have to be disruptive, but it

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could be a challenge, it could be a

counter, story to a national story.

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So.

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is that a characteristic of the digital

border that the gatekeeping functions of

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for-profit media companies are somewhat

lessened by the fact, like one you

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said earlier, everyone has a smartphone

in their hand that they can create.

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I always tell my students, uh,

my undergraduates in my class to

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remember that they are media makers.

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Every day they make media.

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They post, they, blog.

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so in a kind of global context where

so many people are media makers, what

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does a digital border even look like?

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Juan Llamas-Rodriguez: well, I think to

follow up on this example, I would say the

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Netflix interface is a really good example

of what a digital border looks like today.

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for two reasons I think

you were mentioning.

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Traveling and then opening

Netflix in a different country.

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And a lot of us have had that experience

of opening and realizing there's

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different offerings when we go to a

different country open the same app.

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And that has to do with

industry configurations.

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Who has the rights to distribute

the content in the US versus

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Mexico versus Columbia, let's say?

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Right?

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So even just the content

that is available.

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changes on where you are in the world.

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So a digital border, sometimes it's the

replication of the physical geopolitical

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border in the digital platform.

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so it uses your IP address to figure out

where you are in the world and then gives

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you an experience based on that as well.

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I think another form of what the

digital border looks like, even within

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the Netflix interface is algorithms.

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So the whole, Netflix.

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Model is saying that it's gonna

recommend things to you based on

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what it assumes that you like.

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and digital media scholars have started

to make the case that what that does

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is create these filter bubbles, right?

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Where basically, if you've played

something, it assumes that that's

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the thing that you want, and it'll

give you just more of the same.

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So a lot of the time we have

Netflix original productions, made

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in say Germany or Sweden or India.

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and arguably you could access them

through the platform, but the regular

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user might never know that those are

there because the algorithm assumes that

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they've played something that they've.

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That is completely different and then

they'll never want to see the rest of it.

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So, so much of how the content

that we access is being curated

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by these algorithms, it is already

creating sections or barriers

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to how much we can access.

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So yes, all of it is online, but

the question of whether a regular

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user of the platform is going

to access it is another matter.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: happen.

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Yeah.

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That's super interesting.

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I mean, it's also another example of how

digital media ends up, kind of curating.

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it's algorithm and your content

to what you want to buy, right?

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And how you are understood as a consumer,

whether or not that's, shoe ads on

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Instagram or like me getting every

Hallmark Christmas movie ever produced

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on Netflix and my feed even in July.

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So, um,

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Aswin Punathambekar: well, we'll soon

start watching Love actually, once

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: Yes.

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Aswin Punathambekar:

When it gets to November.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: Yes.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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And I also think, you know, when you were

talking one I was smiling because every

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time I go outside of the United States

if I'm on Netflix and there's a show that

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I know I can't see in the United States,

it's like crazy binge Watching, right?

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Because I'll never get to see it

again or until I go back, you know?

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Except for Are you saying

that if I actually took a

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deeper dive, I could find it?

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Or is it, there's so there's industry

regulations that say that, certain

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shows won't be aired on us Netflix.

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And then there's the hidden.

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shows that you never will come across

or know how to search for because

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the algorithm is saying, Sarah just

likes Hallmark Christmas shows.

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Aswin Punathambekar: and this is the,

I think the social narrowing that's

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happened even within the domain of, you

were asking about, you know, your average

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everyday person who can create media.

389

There was a brief phase in which before

we had terms like creator cultures

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and influencer economies, YouTube was

a genuinely lovely place where you

391

could discover all sorts of things.

392

But we've now got to a point

where about 20 years in.

393

Even that has narrowed to a point where

as soon as you hit a certain level of

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popularity comes an entire sort of,

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Machinery that begins to approach

you for brand sponsorships.

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a PR agency or a talent, scout that

says, here are the 50 things that you

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produced, but here are the five things

that seriously generated interest.

398

Why don't we focus what is otherwise

a rich, diverse set of things you like

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to do and say into this one category

and cultivate that as a very particular

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thing on the social media platform.

401

Whereas the kinds of.

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Social discoveries that used to happen.

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To your point about me finding something

on Netflix, that narrowing, I think is

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a serious social and cultural problem

that we all have to find a way to tackle.

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Sarah Banet-Weiser: Yeah.

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I think, years ago when I would teach

about television in the United States

407

and talk about how, networks, television

is a, A for-profit private industry.

408

And what they would do was make sure,

because it's expensive to make sure

409

that they just kind of replicated

other themes through spinoffs or

410

through, genres or that kind of thing.

411

And so you just get, basically, it's a

lot of the same thing that, you know,

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what people used to call the lowest

common denominator of television.

413

Right.

414

And in some ways it's, the relative

openness of digital culture.

415

Challenges that idea that we need a

lowest common denominator because,

416

there is so much content that is

produced, but what I think you're both

417

saying is that actually in function,

what happens is the lowest common

418

denominator, except for it's much more

kind of tailored to individual tastes.

419

Right?

420

so you get the same kinds of things.

421

I mean, why are we gonna

see Love Island again?

422

Why is, I just saw on my Netflix feed that

I can't even remember what country it was,

423

but love is blind in some other countries,

so we get love island, love is Blind.

424

K-pop, demon hunters, bluey.

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is the thing that gets certain.

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Global media productions to circulate

to some kind of economic success?

427

Is it about that sort of basic, capitalist

model of, again, follow the money?

428

Like what is gonna make the most money,

even if there are other productions

429

that are created and put on a platform?

430

Aswin Punathambekar: I think,

again, the answer is yes and no.

431

so I wanna take us back to maybe the.

432

Late nineties, early two thousands.

433

Right.

434

Sarah Banet-Weiser: please, let's go back.

435

Let's go back.

436

Aswin Punathambekar: So it was a really

remarkable period in many ways because,

437

the media world that emerged then sort of

comes out of the clutches of anglophone,

438

what used to be primarily a US film and

television dominated international market,

439

and there were always other vibrant

centers of media production, right.

440

And all sorts of cross border flows that

we just didn't pay much attention to.

441

But what begins to happen at that point

is so many national governments begin

442

turning to media and cultural industries

as vital to their own national futures.

443

So you have this incredible

moment of nation branding.

444

What was it?

445

Cool, Japan Creative Korea, Australia.

446

Australia, unlimited brand, Kenya,

India, shining on and on, right?

447

And out of this came some of the success

stories that we now recognize, right?

448

K-Pop for example, the Korean state's

deep investment in its cultural industry

449

and K-pop demon hunters now has a single

along, uh, what is it, one this weekend

450

Juan Llamas-Rodriguez:

Single link screening.

451

So for people who Dunno, K-pop team

and funders animated film original

452

from Netflix, um, about a girl

K-pop group that needs to save the

453

world by rallying all their fans.

454

It includes songs in them, and.

455

It is on Netflix, but part of the

promotional now that has become so big,

456

and the songs are so popular, they're

having sing-along screenings where they

457

will screen in movie theaters, with the

subtitles so people can sing along to the

458

Aswin Punathambekar: So it speaks

to that fan element, right?

459

Yeah.

460

But there are other thriving circuits

that don't fit into this narrative

461

of global markets and an easy, almost

superficial set of cosmopolitanism, right?

462

And so this is where if we pay

attention to something like say

463

Turkish media, especially the

television dramas across the world,

464

and these are shows that offer this.

465

Potent mix of consumerism meets

religious piety that one scholar

466

has called Neo Ottoman Kool.

467

And what's fascinating is how these

television dramas from Turkey appeal

468

to audiences in all sorts of places.

469

Francophone Africa, parts

of South Asia, Argentina.

470

And so I think we have to be careful

also not to map, which we used to

471

Media flows only go to some parts of the

world because it somehow resonates with

472

their sense of local culture and identity.

473

Well, Narcos was a global phenomenon.

474

K-Pop demon hunters is

a global phenomenon.

475

It doesn't necessarily have anything

to do with my sense of national

476

identity, ethnicity, or anything,

but something else entirely.

477

Certain ideas of desire, certain kinds

of fan practices that may not map onto

478

our local sort of senses of place and

identity, but something else at work.

479

So I think the digital world has

maybe made us even more aware than

480

we were that media flows can't

be mapped onto borders neatly.

481

They also can't be mapped onto some

essential sense of our identity either.

482

Sarah Banet-Weiser: and I think that

that again is a really good point to

483

keep reminding ourselves on and not to

be, sort of hopelessly utopic about it,

484

but there is an openness, and a sort

of flexibility to the way in which not.

485

Only is global media is produced,

but the way in which global

486

media is consumed and celebrated.

487

Um, I mean, clearly Juan has gone to

a sing-along, for K-pop demon hunters.

488

Yes.

489

See, he's nodding.

490

He has, um, um, that there's like fans

all over the world, fans of music,

491

fans of television, fans of film, and.

492

when something like K-Pop, demon hunter

singalong is played, let's say in a

493

Philly theater, it has a different

resonance and a different kind of

494

meaning than it does when it's filmed

or when it's screened somewhere else.

495

And so I think that that's in some ways an

obvious point, but it's also one that we,

496

I think we need to continue to remember

as we, as media scholars remind ourselves.

497

Our students and other scholars that

media is not simple to define, right?

498

it's a very complex kind of set of

arrangements, including things like

499

infrastructure and, capitalism and

content creators and influencers and all

500

the rest that we've been talking about.

501

So I guess, in terms of that, media

production, is also an industry practice.

502

Is there anything that you think

that regulators or state actors

503

overlook in this industry practice?

504

I mean, it seems like, as we talked

about at the very beginning, we can get

505

around a lot of this state regulations.

506

Are there things that you think

state regulators are overlooking that

507

are important for us to consider?

508

Aswin Punathambekar: That's a great

question and I think, I'm glad you used

509

the word overlooked because I think we

can use that term in two ways, right?

510

I think policy makers have historically

overlooked culture and overlooked in the

511

sense of almost sometimes too intense

and a narrow focus that's shaped by

512

anxieties about gender, youth, national

identity, et cetera, and that kind

513

of intense, looking too much into

one domain leads to decisions like

514

censorship, banning platforms, trying

to police everyday media use and so on.

515

Or on the flip side.

516

Culture often gets overlooked in

the sense that it's almost like an

517

afterthought to the real important

stuff of capital technology, the

518

role of the state, and so on.

519

And I, that also is a very narrow

conception of citizenship being

520

about news and information and being

good rational actors when so many

521

cultural studies scholars, including

you, Sarah, who've written from a

522

feminist post-colonial angle saying.

523

We need to shift that way of thinking

about culture, that it's not an

524

afterthought, it's not epiphenomenal,

it's core to who we are as citizens,

525

as people, as individuals, and so on.

526

So, and I think I've come around finally,

after all these years of being frustrated,

527

come around to the accepting the idea

that every generation needs to fight

528

this fight in their own way, right?

529

And make a case for what popular

culture is at a given point in time.

530

Why

531

it matters at that

particular historical moment.

532

So when I teach this, I always

like to use a line from, a

533

British cultural studies scholar.

534

I think we all venerate this particular

scholar Stuart Hall, who said we have

535

to think culturally about politics

and politically about culture.

536

So in that sense, I think overlooking

culture is a mistake we keep

537

making and we've got to stop doing

538

Sarah Banet-Weiser: I couldn't agree more

that that is a mistake that we keep making

539

and it's, exactly what you just said.

540

culture is not an epic phenomenon.

541

It is in fact where we inhabit the

world and what our identities are about.

542

and everything from desire

to anxiety to all of it.

543

And so, I'm really glad

that you, brought that up.

544

Juan, do you have a last word on

what we might be overlooking or what

545

other people might be overlooking?

546

Juan Llamas-Rodriguez: Not,

547

so much on the, what are we overlooking?

548

I think I, I still talk on the

question of what gets through.

549

With this question of what gets through

continuing to go back to the nineties,

550

I guess it's always a question of both.

551

What resonates in the media itself with

the audiences and all of these other

552

questions of political economy, at

the same time and watching practices.

553

the example that I use in my

classes is the of anime in the

554

1990s in Latin America, where.

555

It was originally a decision, of

industrial practice, which was, importing

556

anime for all of these new television

stations was relatively cheaper than

557

importing anything from the United States.

558

so they began importing all sorts of anime

shows in order to fill out the airwaves.

559

and that's why they chose it, but

that wouldn't explain necessarily

560

why that became such a big thing.

561

that's why we had anime in

Latin America in the nineties.

562

Why did it become so popular and enduring?

563

Then you get to think about, genre.

564

So one of the comparisons that

I always make is that the most

565

popular anime series are like a tele

novella, except that it is animated.

566

It's a highly melodramatic nature.

567

it's a family narrative most of the time.

568

so there's a lot of elements that,

audiences we're already familiar

569

with that suddenly you can see

in a slightly different format,

570

but that it resonates, very.

571

Very commonly.

572

And also watching practices as opposed

to what we think of in traditional

573

American television, which was

an episode a week, for example.

574

Both tele novellas and anime

series are an episode a day.

575

So you watch five episodes, Monday

to Friday, and then again, so

576

it's more of the continuation and

audiences who are already familiar

577

with their watching practice.

578

will flock to that kind of idea.

579

So the question of what gets

through becomes complicated.

580

'cause it's not only about, I mean, it is

definitely about the political economical

581

decisions, but then it's also about, genre

and, how that resonates with audiences.

582

It's also about watching practices,

so it becomes a multilayer thing.

583

And I think that's part of the appeal

for us studying popular culture

584

and what that does in the world.

585

Sarah Banet-Weiser: Thanks Juan.

586

I could talk to you

guys all day about this.

587

this has been such a

wonderful conversation.

588

I think we should follow up our podcast

with a love Island watch party or a K-pop

589

sing along, um, with all of Annenberg,

I think we could all kind of join

590

in and make our own meaning from it.

591

Aswin Juan, thank you so much for joining.

592

Um, me on this Annenberg Conversations

podcast and for sharing your

593

incredible insights and just

being such brilliant colleagues.

594

So thanks.

595

And, everyone else, thank you for

listening and we'll see you next time.

596

Aswin Punathambekar: Thank you.

597

Juan Llamas-Rodriguez: thank you.